mod6: jurov: looks like the Bitcoin Foundation Mailing List is down:
jurov: seems up. don't you have aws ec2 firewalled?
jurov: or mail did not go through?
mod6: i didn't even try to send, was just trying to view the page...
mod6: weird. lemme try again from another place.
mod6: i can't seem to hit it from my one thing, but from the other it's fine.
mod6: im blocked from my one thing for sure. wonder wtf. will post image.
shinohai: Been so busy you forgotten how to satisfy requests? >.>
mod6: <+jurov> seems up. don't you have aws ec2 firewalled? << no not at all actually, i have an ec2 instance that i'm connected to from the same place I'm trying to make this failing request from as I type this.
mod6: shouldn't be a problem... so weird
jurov: will look into tomorrow if it won't clear by itself
mod6: i can get to it outside my little sandbox, so i guess it must be fine for everyone else.. wish i knew wtf tho
trinque: namecheap deleted the wot.deedbot.org record without being told!
trinque: hm not even, it's there but not resolving
trinque: pointed out by mod6 and shinohai in another castle
shinohai: namecheap is now known as namecheat
trinque: I have a hard time seeing how a single DNS record within the set could accidentally be missing.
jurov: i'd recommend joker.com for domains, typically swiss approach, using them for years. but they don't accept bitcoins.
☟︎ jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 441218 | Current Difficulty: 2.818009171931958E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 441503 | Next Difficulty In: 285 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 23 hours, 10 minutes, and 20 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
trinque: I guess I'll try jurov's thing
a111: Logged on 2016-11-29 23:20 mats: TIL obama assisted syrian rebels with acquiring sarin, and then blamed assad for it when used in the field
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 02:03 jurov: i'd recommend joker.com for domains, typically swiss approach, using them for years. but they don't accept bitcoins.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-29 23:35 asciilifeform: (as was done with 'osama crew')
mod6: but I did send an email to the ML about 2.5 hours ago that didn't get bounced. probably stuck in the pipe again.
mats: the shell code in this tor bug looks almost exactly like the one in fbi 'network investigative tool' from three years ago
mats: looks like this is mentioned in the tor ml already
trinque would love to know where these people came from
trinque: "if'n u don't like it, u kin geeedddout"
BingoBoingo: Seriously not a single attempt to read any of the linked content to develop context on the venue
jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: Anyways, the best part of light satire is trolling the people who in their hearts want to believe with us but can't because idiot redditards.
jurov: mod6: looks like mailman crashed, after restarting it delivered fine. Last thing logged was:
jurov: Nov 30 04:40:29 2016 (22747) Hostile listname: btc-dev'
mircea_popescu: mailman rose up in arms against the very list it was supposed to return ?!
mircea_popescu: <BingoBoingo> Seriously not a single attempt to read any of the linked content to develop context on the venue << i dunno dood, "the serene republic of somalia" etc. they be trynna.
mircea_popescu: basically now that obama's out, the saudis finally agreed to cut the flood ; oil jumped like 10% after they announced.
mircea_popescu: (iran, the us's only apparently remaining ally in the world, decided not to participate)
mircea_popescu: srsly, the world is now a us-iran partnership trying to stand up to a russian-turkey alliance while a very horny europe is drooling cunt juice on one side and a rather geeky china is holding its distance on the other side.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo not just inflation. yields are higher and growing rapidly ; the dollar is strengthening and stocks are going up. this is the classical desperation run-up to black tuesday.
mircea_popescu: whatever his plans, desires, choices whatever, it seems absolutely certain trump will have a major depression on his hands ; to the tune of "70% of this country's wealth evaporated overnight ; wut do ?!?!"
mircea_popescu: the odds of the syrian situation blowing up into actual war ru+tk vs us+iran (but without nato) are actually non-trivial by now.
mircea_popescu: to be perfectly fair : the dems tried to set up bush the bomb in exactly the same manner in 2000 ; and then the democrat-alligned osama set bush the bomb fo reals.
mircea_popescu: so it is vaguely possible hillary&friends actually have some sarin in say new york subway, not just at the bases of their jenissary in syria.
mircea_popescu: ahahah warren called mnuchin the forrest gump of the financial crisis.
jurov: nope, e-cigs are a thing here
jurov: though they do make smoke, but smells good, unlike classical cigs
BingoBoingo: Last major incarnation of this was stick full of tobacco where small charcoal disk burned for maximum carbon monoxide exposure
jurov: ever seen water pipe? it uses charcoal puck, too. and CO isn't very well absorbed by water (unlike CO2)
jurov: i'd prefer that all way than burning sugar, menthol and zillion other additives they put to classical cigs
jurov: so, it all looks to me one part of tobacco industry FUDdind an other one
BingoBoingo: jurov: the linked eclipse thing is cigarette shaped fiberglass reinforced paper tube tipped with charcoal. Is a lulzy thing best not stuck in mouth.
mircea_popescu: re water pipe - the liquid is infrequently changed, certainly not often enough to maintain co2 solvency
jurov: i have read that tobacco must be dried slowly (like, a month) otherwise it retains more sugar which burns nastily
jurov: such slow process is anathema to anything industrial
mircea_popescu: i have no idea why. shipping for isntance takes 3mo + and apparently they prefer it that way.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the idiots at the guardian made a begging banner which has an X that is not connected to anything, just drawn on the banner itself.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile according to reddit, theguardian.com is a respectable source and qntra.net is the spamsite. because totally.
mircea_popescu: all this to see george monbiot try his best to sell the "our fake citizens groups are for real and everything else is fake" line.
mircea_popescu: well,we had this thread (iirc you brought it up), came out it was fault of machine.
shinohai: I've used --data-raw to good effect and didn't get newlines stripped
mod6: jurov: thanks for pushing that one through and taking care of mailman.
deedbot: yalehasaquestion voiced for 30 minutes.
yalehasaquestion: hey, I'd like to know, I've been running a listening node, and I added 46.166.165.30 as a peer -- but I don't look like I'm connected to it
yalehasaquestion: would it have something to do with the fact that I'm running core 0.13.1?
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
yalehasaquestion: I am interested in understanding what that is, however I'm not much of an expert on such things
trinque: yalehasaquestion: on another note, why are you running "core 0.13.1" ?
shinohai was about to ask the same question.
trinque: yalehasaquestion: various creatures of ill repute have been bolting all kinds of insane shit to the codebase formerly known as bitcoin for years now
trinque is humoring, yet n00b must be encouraged to start at the beginning
jurov: asciilifeform: iirc anything past 0.10.x won't speak with trb
jurov: i remember 0.11 flatly refused
jurov: synced with 0.10.4
mircea_popescu: something something optimized something something whatever.
mircea_popescu: actually from what i can grok from that piece, the proposed solution (dump unexec, move on to saving elisp stack) is actually an improv meent
mircea_popescu: well, from a system design perspective. it makes 0 sense for emacs to actually save c machine state.
mircea_popescu: it also makes 0 sense for it to be a c piece of code, but that's a discussion for another time
mircea_popescu: "The number of people aboard who can matter-of-factly hack the Emacs internals on the C level is consistently going down, and is already so small they can be counted on one hand. We must make Emacs depend less on people from this small and diminishing group, if we want the development pace increased or even kept at its current level." << this is a very solid point.
mircea_popescu: seems evident the correct solution is to get that proper lisp bootstrap i was discussing with phf and then re-write emacs in it.
mircea_popescu: muscle memory is the thinking man's worst enemy ; not least of all because it tends to win.
mircea_popescu: in principle this should be automatable tro a huge degree
mircea_popescu: reducing the problem to "if every dude ran this script and then picked multiple-choice options 5 times"
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:12 asciilifeform: re elisp, imho the 'apocalyptic' scale of the problem is overblown, if every d00d were to rewrite the few 100 of elisp that he actually ~uses~, in climacs, or whereever, job would be done in a week.
ben_vulpes: betcha that's exactly what gabriel_laddel did
☟︎ trinque: is climacs usable to this degree?
☟︎ trinque: I keep hoping for a g_l writeup on the subj, but do not see a blog anywhere
trinque: there was a "10 cans of soda" thread
trinque: at any rate, if I were to invest time in climacs, that is time stolen from learning osdev to put a lisp interpreter on iron, which is time stolen from learning to fab silicon in a garage, which is time stolen from ...
☟︎ phf: breaks my heart all that's been done to emacs. it used to have a strong culture of backwards compatibility. large packages would have compat files compat-19.el, compat-20.el, etc. where's now only latest and greatest work. used to be very non-dwim, now every single package insist on some "smart input" dwimy interaction mode. but all this complexity is broken, things clash and interact with each other in all kinds of funny ways
phf: i've been low-key reviving cmucl's hemlock, can't use portable hemlock nor climacs for that matter, because neither have terminal versions. needless to say the process is slow and painful. like right now i'm trying to figure out why scrolling the buffer is slow slow you can see each individual line redrawing. also arrow keys don't work
☟︎ phf:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1574893 << fwiw mit-scheme's editor edwin has an elisp emulation layer, that reportedly can run gnus of some vintage. when i heard about climacs from beach i actually though he was going to do an elisp translator too. one option might be to pickup edwin, but that's an exercise for someone else entirely
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:02 asciilifeform: it is, laugh or cry, an actual problem, and imho the reason climacs was stillborn
trinque: I'll be clinging to a frozen emacs version and frozen pile of elisp til valhalla.
trinque: seems this runs the risk of continuously being a refugee. "they broke my emacs, so I left for hemlock/climacs/etc, then they broke my X, then they broke my ..."
phf: well, we've already established that running everything on 2005 thinkpads is one viable option, but that's until supplies last
☟︎ shinohai is still trying to source a nice 2005 thinkpad
trinque: phf: dunno that I'm making an argument for anything *else* either
trinque: though a topic I've been thinking upon a lot is, trigger warnings to asciilifeform, mitigations
trinque: though hardware ones, and not the kind normally meant
trinque: his serial diode concept being a good example
trinque: I've thought having a hardware parser/filter on a serial line where only certain bits can possibly flow over, and only in certain order, would compliment it.
trinque: "diode" is just cutting wire
trinque: and something quite stupid and forth-y could handle parsing a rudimentary set of possible statements to a db which eats from one serial port, shits to another
phf: i don't know. it has a whitepaper though
phf: well, it's a 93 whitepaper :)
phf: cat ought to be 8-bit clean, i suspect most of the bloat will come from gnu attempting all kinds of optimization. it probably optionally mmaps cat foo, etc.
phf: well, i only have plan9 cat on my box and it's trully tiny, but then it's plan9 (just does read/write to buf[8192])
phf: i've no idea what that cook_buf is supposed to do
☟︎ trinque: plan9 one is least offensive for sure
trinque: phf: what do you run plan9 userland on?
phf: trinque: i very rarely explicitly run it, it's just there for when i want to read some c code. i sometimes gauge tool sanity by trying to do the same thing with plan9 tools. anyway it's plan9port running on mac 10.9.5
phf: (it also has a nifty set of astro tools, that i use to chart the skys from time to time, because it's really easy to use and i don't know any better)
trinque: they got it a .io for the better to hackernews you with
phf: lol you find flaws with ~everything~. it's utf-8 heavy, no reason to even look :p
phf: probably mercurial tree
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 22:03 phf: well, we've already established that running everything on 2005 thinkpads is one viable option, but that's until supplies last
phf: oh that makes sense, they use bitmap fonts
phf: i think that's a separate set for their own postscript implementation
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 22:31 phf: i've no idea what that cook_buf is supposed to do
trinque: in reading the source, the bsd folks crapped a bunch of things that should be in a sed-like into cat.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 22:35 asciilifeform: soooo lucent bought by nokia, and the latter now by microshit, which now owns the bones of bell labs.
mircea_popescu: the undigested corn nibblets in used toilet are no sort of prize whatsoever ; except for bacteria.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 22:42 asciilifeform: obesity is not per se damning but i'd really love to know wtf there is justifiably 52 zipped MB of , in there.
phf: metafont fits in head
mircea_popescu: phf even limiting the matter to ttfs (seriously, postcript is a whole extra layer of crazy) one quickly discovers some very serious conceptual problems. i don't even mean from a technological pov.
phf: now the question of whether or not designing a font language that simulates movement of calligraphic brushstrokes is a good idea..
mircea_popescu: consider a simpler problem - you wish for whatever reason to "pick a good font". suppose your "good" is specified. you proceed to... look at fonts, selected by some criteria. eventually you are tired to the point your eyes blur, and haven't seen 5% of the available offerigs in "gothic medieval" from one place. there's more places. when are you done ?
mircea_popescu: a) you can not meaningfully say if you've found a "good" font, seeing how you can't say what portion of fonts youv'e actually seen ; b) the very notion of good font is impossible because in principle all possible fonts were made already in triplicate.
mircea_popescu: so you are essentially looking at a collection of ink spots, until you fall over.
mircea_popescu: there is absoloutely no reason there should be more than maybe a dozen or so fonts. but there are, because "easy to make", and in spite of the rapidly diminishing returns of "making".
mircea_popescu: instead, those rapidly diminishing returns drive a diminishing of quality.
mircea_popescu: this is not so different from the problem of, eg, emacs. or plan9. or any software. or any fucking shop in a town, or a mall. why the fuck are there FIFTY fast food offering the same crap in the food court ?
mircea_popescu: it's not even that they're broken in tech terms. this shit is broken culturally.
mircea_popescu: yes mildest but very fucking illustrative. at least to my eyes, perhaps due to personal history.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the problem here isn't a discrete technological product, be it a font or a bridge ; nor the dysfunctional process that produced it, be it a broken cnc mill or lucent ; but altogether something more fundamental, where young man looking to "go west" decides the west is at the bottom of the lake and proceeds to dig.
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: we are, intellectually speaking, in the bizarre situation of st. petersburg, a small town on the mississppi where for some bizarro enchantment reason all the boys decided the thing to do is dig up the river. and drowned there.
mircea_popescu: and the kids see the discarded shoes and floating hats and decide THEY SHOULD DIG TOO
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:13 ben_vulpes: betcha that's exactly what gabriel_laddel did
gabriel_laddel: I am presently trying to figure out why X11 fails to launch (segfault) on my (self hosting) livecd.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: yeah, will post in a few minutes. I am pretty sure that it is because a dependency that does not show up in lddtree --list is required.
gabriel_laddel: and right now I'm generating the most minimal possible livecd so I can see wtf is going on / speed of generation.
phf: asciilifeform: he probably got ulimit -c 0 anyway, which as apparently sop on all kind linux
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:15 asciilifeform: d00d suffers from the traditional disease of the 19yo 'night h4ck3r' , crippling tunnel vision
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: you've not seen the endgame for masamune yet.
gabriel_laddel: people have blown hundreds of millions trying to make a "gui builder" atop QT, the web, swing etc.
gabriel_laddel: I can prototype something in 727 loc on clim that blows them all out of the water.
gabriel_laddel: creating graphical applications 10-100x faster than the competition is immensely useful.
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel i'd loot a lot more than 10s of mns if i found a way to reliably get people to do the things that need done rather than the sexy things they want to do BEFORE they are old enough for their active life to be mostly behind them.
☟︎ jurov: gabriel_laddel: i heard same claims about tcl/tk. but none seven digit figures happened there i know of
gabriel_laddel: jurov: if you don't understand how (common) lisp differs from tcl/tk you've missed the boat intellectually.
trinque: "he didn't have my winning mentality!"
trinque: it is at least advisable to study the way others fell before you.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:13 asciilifeform: i currently have nfi what, if anything, he did other than bum around.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:15 trinque: is climacs usable to this degree?
trinque: your shithub is from last year
jurov: eh, leave gabriel be, at least he isn't working on doublebuffered Emacs FastSave(r)(tm)
trinque: where is the current vpatch ?
mircea_popescu: jurov amusingly, lua actually DID realise mns in savings for petrobras. the authors however failed to capture any of it.
☟︎ gabriel_laddel: trinque: the only way to distribute software is as a full self-hosting linux that can generate livecds of itself.
trinque: the only way is signed vpatches
trinque: so I know wtf it is! and by whom!
trinque: mircea_popescu: I can see it, but then I think I'm supposed to be the customer ?
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:22 asciilifeform: i've wondered if he doesn't have a secret and dire problem with dope or similar.
mircea_popescu: phf yes, lua was build in-house by the brazillians trying to you know, be independent state.
mircea_popescu: political history of lua / petro-brazil is a worthy pit to dig for the amateur cyber-historian of republican perspective.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I have been a little busy to generate a new key in an unsecure manner. It is on "the list"
phf: well, as w burroughs demonstrated the problem is not dope, it's the lack of money to both buy dope and not have to shop to work the next day
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: yes. When I am inbetween places to sleep for ~24 hours and need sleep it helps to be able to GET SOMETHING DONE.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: yet. I end up going through these cycles where caffeine works to stave off sleep, then it doesn't, then I end up sleeping on a couch for 3 days, 12-14 hours a day.
trinque: I know what the 10yr of that looks like, secondhand
trinque: doesn't look like superhaxor...
gabriel_laddel: then I maintain you have no idea what it can and cannot do for you in my situation.
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel this applies to, eg, licking mains socket also ? or just some classes of things ?
phf: i wouldn't code on coke, or amphetamines for that matter, that hyperactivity narrows down your periphery thinking, which results in a lot of drawn out code
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I've no source for it, else, yes, I would.
trinque: all it's going to do is make some foolhardy thing seem like A WICKED SWEET IDEA BRAH
trinque: because chemically induced enthusiasm
phf: programmer's stone made a point long time ago that you need to be really fucking relaxed to write quality code
☟︎ gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: let's put it this way -- I used cocaine, meth etc etc from 16-20 constantly, then not at all for 4+ years. Idk if that is disciplined or what, but I don't appear to have a problem with it, know what it does to me and think it would improve my current situation.
trinque: that adds some color to the situation
trinque: the conceit is that you're always a centimeter away
trinque: that is what addiction is.
gabriel_laddel: gotta get this fuking livecd to work, and then smooth sailing
mircea_popescu: nobody is ever a centimetre short of cracking anything.
mircea_popescu: this is like being "centimetre short of gravitational capture". ain't how things work.
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: well, every computer goes through two phases - first, programming, then execution.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 23:28 mircea_popescu: jurov amusingly, lua actually DID realise mns in savings for petrobras. the authors however failed to capture any of it.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:46 phf: i've been low-key reviving cmucl's hemlock, can't use portable hemlock nor climacs for that matter, because neither have terminal versions. needless to say the process is slow and painful. like right now i'm trying to figure out why scrolling the buffer is slow slow you can see each individual line redrawing. also arrow keys don't work
gabriel_laddel: fly out to SFO, bring a computer and we'll install masamune.
trinque: the mind will create elaborate narratives to justify addiction. never affected me directly, but I've seen it.
☟︎ trinque: not even, but especially "save the computing industry" quests
trinque: ben_vulpes can confirm that I saw that one directly, with a former boss / drunk.
shinohai: With a spiffy new website, it shows "development" being done AND NOT LOST CAUSE!
a111: Logged on 2016-11-30 21:25 trinque: at any rate, if I were to invest time in climacs, that is time stolen from learning osdev to put a lisp interpreter on iron, which is time stolen from learning to fab silicon in a garage, which is time stolen from ...
jhvh1: 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
jhvh1: 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
mircea_popescu: shinohai the response of the redditards is so amusing. "there's TWO DIFFERENT DOOMED FORKS NOW!!! for you to choose from! because fragmentation is so totally the winning strategy!"
mircea_popescu: again and again and again the same stupidity it will do, because hey. all it got.
shinohai: This must have came out of Roger Ver's "Consensus Meeting" today
mircea_popescu: next i suppose they'll be "teaching the controversy" of whether shit or turd is the correct choice, and we'll continue ignoring them and they'll continue to pretend that we don't matter and their 5% is inexplicable at the same time. without any problem whatsoever in their absent minds, putin doesn't understand how the world works and influences the elections, sure, why not.
mircea_popescu has been having fun asking libtards "so why didn't YOU influence the elections then ?"
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I've spent no time on trying to source it.
phf: gabriel_laddel: well this is my avocation, so hacking on hemlock and installing masamune in sfo is cost equivalent. i'd make a trip just as a mini vacation, i'll see when's the closest i can swing it
☟︎ trinque: "hey man can I like, take a shower in your hotel room?"
phf: trinque: i go to burning man, the kind of people i accommodate....
gabriel_laddel: trinque: eh, if you're not willing to ask / do that to realize sane computing -- you don't want it at all.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: Unfortunately no. I cannot predict how long it will take me to deal with idiot unix nonsense.