tmsr - Search: ada

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mp_en_viaje: one of the major things we're working towards here is to construct the ada-centric self-hosting ecosystem.

mp_en_viaje: meanwhile its been YEARS, and guess what ? 0 new development on c. everyone wants to write in ada.

mp_en_viaje: see, all this reasoning is informed by experience : back when we started looking at systems design lang, and started discussing ada, i was very adamantly for maintaining options open.

a111: Logged on 2019-04-23 19:44 bvt: the problem with these both approaches is that it's impossible to get gnat/ada that way - gnat was bootstrapped from some commercial ada compiler in ~1994, and is self-hosted since that times. (well, impossible by definition with just tcc)

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-23#1909529 << the idea isn't to get tcc to compile ada. the idea is to destroy gcc -- cut the "useful compilation half" into an ada compiler ; cut the shitlands compilation half into a small weight something else. there is no republican future for gcc as a gcc in the foss / linus-stallman sense of the term. ☝︎☟︎

asciilifeform: i.e. what you'd want is to 'self-host' (on iron built for the purpose) a lang where a c, ada, etc. compiler is 3000 ln.

bvt: the problem with these both approaches is that it's impossible to get gnat/ada that way - gnat was bootstrapped from some commercial ada compiler in ~1994, and is self-hosted since that times. (well, impossible by definition with just tcc) ☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: folx who dun like that ada asks you to write arrays low ... high , can make own lang and write arithmetron for selves in it, it is not a priority for asciilifeform and i dun see an argument for making it one.

asciilifeform: i'll add, however, that ffa does not use byte-addressing or bit-addressing, if you were to build a machine where either is in whatever direction, and write a (standard-compliant) ada for it, ffa will work same way.

asciilifeform: the q, if there even is a q, is re what convention of order to write array range in. ada forces the low-to-high left-to-right.

asciilifeform: but neither ada nor anyffin else, does this.

a111: Logged on 2019-04-09 21:47 diana_coman: the easy gauge would be - go mention Ada and see reaction; far from "martian artefact" style; but that being said, I'm not giving it as "fact, here it is, started on x-y-z at 5pm"

asciilifeform: mp_en_viaje: boeing claims ada in 7xx series. but i have no means to verify .

a111: Logged on 2019-04-09 21:37 diana_coman: I suspect by now the "Ada-space" is rather mapped since I keep bumping into the same names

a111: Logged on 2019-04-09 21:26 asciilifeform: near as i can tell, these folx simply sat down and 'wrote c++ in ada', is all there was to it.

diana_coman: the easy gauge would be - go mention Ada and see reaction; far from "martian artefact" style; but that being said, I'm not giving it as "fact, here it is, started on x-y-z at 5pm" ☟︎

asciilifeform pictures already the coming orgy of derps , writing 'ada' cum heapism/pointers , so to 'feel like a trader^H^H^H^H^Hboeing' etc

diana_coman: perhaps; fwiw I think there's a rather funny rush to "find" Ada.

asciilifeform: asciilifeform would find it interesting to read the 1980s ada that's running on boeing etc. , but so far never found any leaked pieces thereof. would be interesting to see if resembles e.g. ffa style.

diana_coman: I suspect by now the "Ada-space" is rather mapped since I keep bumping into the same names ☟︎

asciilifeform: kazakov's thing isn't an ada tutorial, it's a (surprisingly well documented, for a heathen) lib collection

asciilifeform: diana_coman: upstack to 'quasi-decent heathen adaists', 1 item from my notes is http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de/ada/components.htm

diana_coman: anyway, for client use, it's not ada-heapism that is in any way a problem really.

diana_coman: this guy is the first that doesn't quite seem "c++ in ada" really i.e. he seems more focused on Ada for the right reasons; I suspect more the windows-based trouble as it were.

asciilifeform: near as i can tell, these folx simply sat down and 'wrote c++ in ada', is all there was to it. ☟︎

diana_coman: as I'm coming from a few years already of reading and wrestling planeshift code, I can't say it'll be reading heathen Ada that would cost me time, lol.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: so far i've found that reading heathen ada examples ~cost~ me time, rather than saved, and put into my head things that later had to laboriously pump out. and the zip fella is no exception.

asciilifeform: the ada array-slice notation makes this work properly without substantial effort, simply through the type constraint logic .

diana_coman: from there I had a look at his zip ada and the rest

diana_coman: I saw that he has supposedly even an Ada browser but when I tried to get the sources it seems I got some incomplete/windows-dev thing

a111: Logged on 2017-02-02 01:08 asciilifeform: http://unzip-ada.sourceforge.net/za_html/index.htm << astonishingly readable literate-programming d00d. and he has a bunch of these.

a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:26 OriansJ: bvt: well to be honest, an Ada subset would be much easier to implement than a C subset; the problem however is always available contributors.

mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906980 << yes ; progressing from a gentoo fork end, from an ada-as-systems-language end, from a bitcoin-has-to-be-an-os / needs-own-fs end, and from a few other too small to list yet. ☝︎

asciilifeform: vendor supplied lisp, ada, fortran, even c, compilers , which interoperated to the point of safely calling proggy written in 1, from another

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-06#1907042 << all of these archs were missing essential piece for sanity -- type tagging and bounds checking. ( i.e. if running ada or lisp 'costs extra' on your iron vs. c , your arch is broken ! ) ☝︎

OriansJ: an 8bit immediate can be very useful for dense code and it would fit most bootstrapping constants if it is signed; support for 16, 32 and up immediates makes supporting compilers for C/Ada easier to write but it isn't a real issue if you have support for IP relative loads of 32bit and up values

bvt: re 2, after a restricted ada assembler, should a ada-dos be built? mes assumes that linux kernel is a given, which imho is a big hole in the process

OriansJ: 1) Did you mean in regards to minimal hardware requirements or the set which would make it a host platform worth using after the bootstrap is done and 2) Generally a higher level language such as Ada or C.

a111: Logged on 2019-04-05 22:26 OriansJ: bvt: well to be honest, an Ada subset would be much easier to implement than a C subset; the problem however is always available contributors.

bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-04-05#1906987 << well, this depends on the subset of ada; re contributors - this is a known issue ☝︎

BingoBoingo: OriansJ: Well right now we have some people working on flensing a minimal linux from Gentoo-MUSL and other people building utilities in ADA

OriansJ: bvt: well to be honest, an Ada subset would be much easier to implement than a C subset; the problem however is always available contributors. ☟︎☟︎

bvt: of course, ada/gnat is too complex for bootstrapping as-is, but i guess equivalent safety properties would be still required

bvt: so far everything points into the direction opposite of linux/c (http://mocky.org/Log-Reference-Why-Ada/ may be interesting)

diana_coman: billymg the tests I have are simply automated ada and/or c/cpp tests for the code, nothing v-specific really; from V's pov it's just code like the rest.

a111: Logged on 2019-03-26 21:31 asciilifeform: i'll add that even a tcp skin wouldn't be entirely useless ( right nao the only way to write a wwwistic proggy in ada is to use adacorpse's 'gnatsockets' crock of shit )

Mocky: ada sounds good. I'm not sure if db wrapper is a good starting point though, maybe work up to it

mircea_popescu: but otherwise, what sounds good ? you wanna do the ada db wrapper for instance ?

asciilifeform: i'll add that even a tcp skin wouldn't be entirely useless ( right nao the only way to write a wwwistic proggy in ada is to use adacorpse's 'gnatsockets' crock of shit ) ☟︎

asciilifeform: ( in the last iteration , the 1 that presently dun build on acct of gnat bug , you simply make any data structure you like in ada, and it persists to disk. )

asciilifeform: ideally what you'd want imho is a sane db solidly in ada, rather than coupla mil+ loc of c ??? . but this may be bridge too far just yet.

mircea_popescu: but in point of fact we gotta weld ada to db already, what.

mircea_popescu: in another order : an ada prototype for db interaction, at the very least with mysql and postgres, would probably get imported into a lot of projects. anyone has one unpublished ? anyone wanna write ?

mircea_popescu: in any case, a very tentative possible repoublican alternate machine can be already intuited : if p backend is welded to gcc;s frontends, one can code in ada (or c#, why not), compiler for p-machine and live happily ever after.

asciilifeform: ( in fact ada per se has a fascism knob that, if set, prevents early return from subroutines . i have not thus far used, cuz in ffa per se this is already the case, nuffin gets to terminate early when 'constant time' algo )

chonkin: Is this real? https://www.adaic.org/advantages/ada-overview/

chonkin: ada for critical code.. interesting

BingoBoingo: Ever play with ADA? http://mocky.org/Log-Reference-Why-Ada/

asciilifeform: ( and subs internal to subs, permitted in ada planet just as they are in pascal )

asciilifeform: consider the not-uninteresting fact, that on 370,000-transistor bolix, ada was 50kloc ; while on 3bil+-transistor x86, ada (gnat cum gcc cum deps) is , what, 1mil+ ? and their kernel was iirc ~50kloc, while ours...

asciilifeform: ( ditto gnat. the troo adatron would be a ~50kloc bolix-style ada on sane iron support, rather than crusty old gnat )

a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 23:49 asciilifeform: if we had a sane iron, would be similarly easy to produce a back end ( and that's what asciilifeform thinks of as 'ada machine' )

bvt: there are Import(Ada,...) and Import(Asm,...), which do the same thing according to the docs (http://archive.is/XEHW0#selection-17075.0-17109.171), and I did not manage to find any ABI docs with 'ada calling sequence'.

a111: Logged on 2019-03-10 02:44 mircea_popescu: http://bvt-trace.net/2019/03/ffa-chapter-9-homework-comba-in-x86_64-assembly/#selection-15.295-19.176 << why this, specifically ? is there no ada asm calling method besides this ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu et al : there are no cstrings in ada, unless one explicitly bakes'em in order to throw to c linked liquishit. all arrays carry their bounds with'em.

diana_coman: ada doesn't have c-strings anyway

phf: the problem is that our ada keccak explodes whatever char buffer it gets into an array of octets, which means that, while diff keeps the size of chunks under some particular value, keccak explodes that value x8

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: kernel ( linus's , that is ) -- exposes. the tricky bit was/is the ada glue.

mircea_popescu: http://bvt-trace.net/2019/03/ffa-chapter-9-homework-comba-in-x86_64-assembly/#selection-15.295-19.176 << why this, specifically ? is there no ada asm calling method besides this ? ☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-06#1900636 << was this in the final linkage step, or earlier (and if then, then in the .cpp pieces ? or ada ? ) ☝︎

mircea_popescu: myeah. "the front -end and runtime are written in ada".

a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:07 mircea_popescu: c. ada-?-musl-static is the standard, either zcx or sjlj is acceptable (mostly based on what threading philosophy one embraces), with an obvious preference for zcx if one doesn't thread.

a111: Logged on 2019-02-16 09:44 ave1: diana_coman, in system-linux-*.ads (in gcc/ada directory) you'll find the line: ZCX_By_Default : constant Boolean := False;

deedbot: spyked rated diana_coman 4 << eulora, ada and others; showed me around .ro.petroltown

a111: Logged on 2018-11-09 14:39 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu do you know this fella ? http://dan.corlan.net 'Alexandru-Dan Corlan, MD, PhD' 'stochastic models of patient evolution and pharmacologic response' 'high performance computing and programming in R, Ada and CommonLisp'

asciilifeform: or if you gotta explicit thread, ada's tasks in sjlj mode ( or even zcx , if you dun care re terminations )

mircea_popescu: ada-musl will have to get its own backend, even if it's mpi-style confiscation.

a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 23:24 mircea_popescu: actually ada not having a backend can (and probably will) hide all sorta surprises.

mircea_popescu: well, doesn't seem like the end of the world, then, to say "this is the rk, has so and so list of advantages as before discussed (truly independend box, etc) and the one drawback meanwhile discovered that you can't really do tmsr-like threading in ada on it, which may be fixed later"

asciilifeform: re rk -- not errybody is running ada proggy, and errything else appears to work quite well there.

asciilifeform: meanwhile, in world of ancient warez finds : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/warez/artek.zip << ada-83 compiler for msdos, circa 1987.

asciilifeform: if we had a sane iron, would be similarly easy to produce a back end ( and that's what asciilifeform thinks of as 'ada machine' ) ☟︎

asciilifeform: funnily enuff, i suspect there are a grand total of ~two~ ada back ends in existence : 1) the Official adacorpse one , sewed out of gcc ( the 'fsf gnat' is simply old copy of same )

mircea_popescu: actually ada not having a backend can (and probably will) hide all sorta surprises. ☟︎

BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i'm still curious what mircea_popescu thinks of as 'ada machine' << 128 bit MIPS 1, 2, 8, or 72 cores at 800, 1600, or 3200 mhz when purpose backed. Otherwise 128 bit for the UCI address space.

mircea_popescu: though if possible, i'd just move the wrappers to ada first.

asciilifeform: i'm still curious what mircea_popescu thinks of as 'ada machine'

mircea_popescu: i suspect ada machine can be made with much tinier kernel tho.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897763 << currently ada depends on a layer of c to do basic things such as abort. this can not stand, esp if we want an ada machine. that writing to irq table will have to happen through ada code, not calling c. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 17:16 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897750 << tested nothing. fixed, gotta be ada not c.

a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform still gotta build the ada environment ~with something~.

a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:26 asciilifeform: ada.interrupts ~will~ have to be tested, it's a must for 'bare irons' adaisms as a class.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897750 << tested nothing. fixed, gotta be ada not c. ☝︎☟︎

asciilifeform: ada.interrupts ~will~ have to be tested, it's a must for 'bare irons' adaisms as a class. ☟︎

asciilifeform: ( for killing processes, it is possible to e.g. use ada.interrupts system . but asciilifeform not yet tested ! )

mircea_popescu: diana_coman looks like it's going the way of cuntoo-ada-musl, no glibc.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform still gotta build the ada environment ~with something~. ☟︎