tmsr - Log 2019-03-27

Mocky: I'm going to finish moving my blog over to mpwp this week. I expect I'll need some pizarro assistance for go-live. Then Imma post remaining handful of Qatar posts, including video of my address to Doha derpchain gathering. ☟︎

asciilifeform: ( even tho it is about the ancient proof of concept vtron, with old-style hashes etc., re the basic mechanics it is still 100% correct )

asciilifeform: imho v is the simplest, mechanically, versionatron ever baked. so i dun expect Mocky will have much of problem

Mocky: I think I get it but havn't used yet, other than a trb build from online that didn't require much thinking.

pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: FATAL: Tick: 14 IP: 14 Symbol: ';' : Conditional Return in Sub: 'foo' is Prohibited! (Please check for unbalanced '{'.)'

pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: FATAL: Tick: 24 IP: 13 Symbol: ',' : Currently in a Subroutine; but this Op exits a Loop state !

pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: FATAL: Tick: 2 IP: 2 Symbol: ';' : Currently in a Loop state; but this Op exits a Subroutine !

BingoBoingo: <Mocky> I'm going to finish moving my blog over to mpwp this week. I expect I'll need some pizarro assistance for go-live. Then Imma post remaining handful of Qatar posts, including video of my address to Doha derpchain gathering. << Let me know what you need

Mocky: BingoBoingo: once i get everything imported to my satisfaction on mockyhabeeb.com I'd like to cut over to mocky.org, so apache config I think

pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: FATAL: Tick: 59 IP: 11 Symbol: '!' : No Subroutines were defined prior to this position!

pehbot: asciilifeform: EGGOG: FATAL: Tick: 32 IP: 32 Symbol: '!' : Attempted movement to IP: 5 violates the Cutout!

pehbot: asciilifeform: cbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaacbaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

pehbot: asciilifeform: cbaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaacbaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaacbaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaabaaaaaaa

asciilifeform: Mocky: most battlefield pehtapes , i expect, will be ~much~ easier to read than these ( e.g. will include comments, an' meaningful names ) . these, are simply micro demos that fit in log line

asciilifeform: at some pt i'ma publish the emacs majormode for editing pehs. it is ~much~ easier with colours etc

asciilifeform: but imho 1st it oughta become 'second nature' for the n00b , to read the examples with naked eye

asciilifeform: it oughta be , after study, entirely obvious from single eyeball walk why each 1 does what it does

asciilifeform: any given piece of peh tape cannot refer to anything that lies to the right of it, ergo 1 walk suffices

mircea_popescu: Mocky, pressing something's a good idea, for sure, even if it's just some patches on mp-wp chain say.

mircea_popescu: item should be ~the most accessible if i had to guess.

mircea_popescu: but otherwise, what sounds good ? you wanna do the ada db wrapper for instance ?

mircea_popescu: or you wanna try your hand at http://trilema.com/2019/the-freenode-issue/#comment-128270 ?

Mocky: ada sounds good. I'm not sure if db wrapper is a good starting point though, maybe work up to it

a111: Logged on 2019-03-26 21:31 asciilifeform: i'll add that even a tcp skin wouldn't be entirely useless ( right nao the only way to write a wwwistic proggy in ada is to use adacorpse's 'gnatsockets' crock of shit )

mircea_popescu: that could work, sure.

mircea_popescu: other than that, a) if you'd rather mostly deal with c legacy codebase you could also work with diana_coman on an eulora client ; b) if you'd rather do evanghelism work the original job in the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-19#1903518 line is still open -- you could work to advertise your castle in heathenworld (leverages pizarro directly ; and if you're serious about not leaving the ushithole you can incorporate it regula ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-03-19 23:18 mircea_popescu: if anyone recalls, at that time the intended republic-sponsored kegger party at the site of some anti-usg rebellion died over portland's apparent failure to produce beer & sluts under ben_vulpes 's direction.

mircea_popescu: rly as a church and all that line).

mircea_popescu: ie, there's a lot both tech and non tech holes to fill.

Mocky: I am serious about finding a way out of mordor. I'm interested in both tech & non tech hole filling: giving the matter due consideration so as to avoid http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-21#1828117 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-06-21 16:22 mircea_popescu: if you just run by whatever shines you'll get overwhelmed and then depressed at how the sand sucks effort with no visible return.

mircea_popescu: well, im not sure i follow what;s going on, but didn't you execute a 1. i must pay dubaloos so and so a month to landlord therefore -> 2. i must take job in empire and thus logically -> 3. gotta live there ?

mircea_popescu: so basically what you're saying is that you're only firmly decided to stay in us for the ~mid term~ as opposed to "more than that" ?

mircea_popescu: well, mid term is mid term, what, three, five, ten years. none of the items described there are longer commitments anyway, you can totally get a church going in the mid term -- if it goes anywhere i'm sure there'll be who wants to take over if / when you feel like leaving.

mircea_popescu: basically the discriminant there was "decided to staay or leave ? if stay, x, if leave, dunno, maybe go to paraguay see if can help bingo get that hardware shop off the ground or something"

mircea_popescu: (i kinda suspect BingoBoingo would do a lot better with a partner on the grounds, tbh)

mircea_popescu: uruguay*

mircea_popescu: aite, well, see what works for you!

mircea_popescu: naah.

mircea_popescu: the original discussion was, sec lemme find it...

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-03#1359583 << there. ☝︎

mircea_popescu: the context was, some farmers were disputing usg's territorial claim, and it'd have been a decent opportunity for some keks. free beer, collegiate sluts, get a party going, let the landsknecht deal wirth it

mircea_popescu: (same exact blueprint that's working quite so splendidly to embarass french pantsuit these days, exactly)

mircea_popescu: item crumpled over absent grassroots. not that it's hard to remedy : get a church registered, organize donation campaigns, get some real estate and run events off it, there you go.

mircea_popescu: the place is quite ripe for it, on one hand lots and lots and lots of useless and idle youth, on the other hand large paper fortunes desperate for some protection. can very well get paid to "protect the household" while selling tickets to rape the wife, it's 100% a opera buffa sorta sittuation.

mircea_popescu: all that's needed is the proper an' adequate supply of pippins der kurzen

mircea_popescu: Mocky, i'm just laying it on the table, plainly. i'm not trying to force you into nonsense.

mircea_popescu: yeah. but the contrary consideration's certainly sound, "let's do things in the order they can be done in, as opposed to any other."

mircea_popescu: Mocky, pepin the short was the original carolingian king of the franks. started career as exactly that, "being paid to guard the household while selling tickets to rape the wives"

mircea_popescu: "mayor of the palace", whatever.

Mocky: I had a dream 3 nights ago that I walked down a row of 4 houses and banged on each door as I went past yelling "send our your oldest girl" and the doors all opened and 4 female lions came running out as if to chase and attack me. But I stared them down and told them they are with me now. Apparently they were talking lions because they all said "ok" and then followed me as I walked off.

mircea_popescu: is this you trying your hand at mosesing ?

mircea_popescu: anyway, i'm sure you can get decent chunks of dubaloos directly from fiat "government" for "outreach work with disadvantaged youth".

mircea_popescu: same exact youth that then go and bludgeon police into the ground. rinse, repeat, scale up, take over.

mircea_popescu: and nighty-night.

mircea_popescu: and for the rotaku club : https://ro.wikisource.org/wiki/A_zecea_muz%C4%83 (one of caragiale's best satires, utterly destructuring "modern" world.)

billymg: Mocky: i plan to have my recent remove-tinymce patch updated to go on top of hanbot's this weekend, if you'd like to use for http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-27#1904998 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-03-27 00:55 Mocky: I'm going to finish moving my blog over to mpwp this week. I expect I'll need some pizarro assistance for go-live. Then Imma post remaining handful of Qatar posts, including video of my address to Doha derpchain gathering.

billymg: a freshly pressed copy of the divergent patch found here http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=mp-wp&search= has been running on my blog since sunday though

billymg: and i did pretty thorough local QAing before publishing, but having more testers would be great

mircea_popescu: billymg, if you're happy with it, one thing you could do is patch your testing suite as an alternate patch off mp-wp genesis ; this way people looking to test can just use it (and patch atop it if need be) rather than write from scratch. ☟︎

lobbesbot: mircea_popescu: Sent 2 hours and 53 minutes ago: <spyked> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/mtpZa/?raw=true

mircea_popescu: same goes for whoever else has a good testing suite for whatever they're maintaining : publishing a "devel" branch, including testing and whatever else tooling in that vein is certainly a legitimate use of forking the v tree.

mircea_popescu: this way, someone looking to test presses to both heads and voila. it has the potential to significantly improve the quality of testing done, both in the sense of total and highwater mark.

mircea_popescu: mtpza, srsly ?

mircea_popescu: i guess it wasn't mtpzd, at least....

BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> (i kinda suspect BingoBoingo would do a lot better with a partner on the grounds, tbh) << I suspect similar ☟︎

mircea_popescu: well in the meanwhile stop burning so much incense on the melancholy temple. idle hands an' all that!!

BingoBoingo: Well, walks are getting easier now that the wind and chill is clearing the locals off the riverwalk

mircea_popescu: it's started here, the wind. it'd be tornado level anywhere else, it freely moves the damned car on the highway, "what the fuck, is my direction shot what the fuck is this ?!" "just windy" "holy shit!"

BingoBoingo: The extremes were more extreme back on the plains of old country, but here the baseline level of air movement is quite a bit higher.

mircea_popescu: !!up grangerstranger

mircea_popescu: grangerstranger, who the hell are you then ? ☟︎

diana_coman: mircea_popescu: fwiw everything I published v-versioned has the tests included as a subdir with its own .gpr file and all that; I'm not sure a fork of the V-tree is really needed for this (i.e. deleting a whole dir is easier than maintaining a for as far as I see it atm).

mircea_popescu: diana_coman, word. it's more a thing for something like mp-wp, which is a sort of enduser app so to speak, than something like eucrypt that's basically a library, or in any case a building block intended for use in forging.

diana_coman: re grangerstranger it's really that those never talking actually are ghosts even if poked? what a surprise

mircea_popescu: diana_coman, there's a pronstarlet the naming reminds me of.

mircea_popescu: https://twitter.com/kimmygrangerxxx

diana_coman: eh, what's to stop stealing internet names if images is too hard; but anyway.

mircea_popescu: nothing, certainly.

diana_coman: "Dudes are out here going to the gym to only work out their arms and chest and constantly skip everything below their torso." aahaha

diana_coman: in fairness though,I'd say it's untrue: there's LOTS of dicking around so they...try!

mircea_popescu: easy enough to check, on the other side. but yes, chick's a cut above the usual dickowsy.

mircea_popescu: "My friends: We really need to start talking nicer to eachother 4 minutes later: “You really are a stupid ass bitch”"

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik 'granger' is today an agricultural gear supplier in usa . ( named after 19th c union thing of some variety )

mircea_popescu: it was a fleeting momentary thought! such as occurs in my box occasionally! i'm not proposing marriage over here!!1

a111: Logged on 2019-03-27 17:49 mircea_popescu: grangerstranger, who the hell are you then ?

mircea_popescu: grangerstranger, what do you do for a living and why are you here would be decent starting points.

mircea_popescu: a ok.

mircea_popescu: !!down grangerstranger

asciilifeform: gotta wonder re the thought process. door clearly marked 'If you don't know where you are, you shouldn't be here.' eh . ☟︎

mircea_popescu: no markings are clear in modern democracy. it's written in the constitution : everyone is to be idemnified for all things they do not read. ☟︎

asciilifeform: in other noose ! http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/6rnvA/?raw=true << prelim. smoke test of ch18 example 2048b prime gen. http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/USsFD/?raw=true << sample output with timing. all the primes pass on e.g. wolfram's , if anyone has a favourite 3rdparty litmus, plox to try also when ch18 posted.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, what am i commenting on ?

asciilifeform: example is to illustrate style, i did not particularly doubt that it'd work as described .

mircea_popescu: i dun see the problem, so it takers a minute. current gpg takes as much, and ssh which doesn't is sucja cryptojoke as to not be worth the mention.

asciilifeform: the carryaway is that ( with operating fg ) it'll take <2min to bake a 4096bit key .

asciilifeform: it's ~= the figure i predicted on napkin, but nao has experimental confirm.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: funnily enuff, koch takes approx same time, and that's with him not using rng witnesses at all iirc...

mircea_popescu: aha.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ssh iirc uses ellipticisms by default, so whole own category of joak

asciilifeform: granted for actual key will want also random e , and will reject some p,q,e triples based on the obvious rule

asciilifeform: ( so i expect will be ~7 min. or so per 4096b key, on iron of this horse )

asciilifeform: for thread-completeness, will add that it is possible to speed up the algo by giving not only 1 'primorial up to width' but it and then whichever number of product(n+1th-prime ... n+i-th prime) that yet again fit in the width, and so forth, for any desired # of small primes, for the initial sieve

asciilifeform: ( naturally at no point will the algo complete faster than the time eaten by the given # of m-r rounds specified )

asciilifeform: tbh i cannot however think of when or where i would say 'ugh, 10min is too long for baking a 4096b key'..

asciilifeform: ( when 1st started ffa, was quite ready to live with 'keygen takes hour+' ftr )

asciilifeform: diana_coman back in the day posted old-style mpi timings but i do not know on what irons so cannot readily compare .

asciilifeform: 'A relatively short test run obtained 40 random primes of 2048 bits each in 13274 seconds in total (3.7 hours) meaning on average 331.85 seconds per prime (~6 minutes).'

asciilifeform: ( also had 'an average of 9.78 seconds per M-R run' , on again i dun presently know which irons )

asciilifeform: tho unless i misread, that ^ figure included 16 iterations thereof, rather than 1

asciilifeform: aanyways i expect that when diana_coman gets to eating ch18, we can compare properly .

diana_coman: asciilifeform: timings sounds good to me; I have it on the list to get some timings for comparison when I get to eat full FFA, yes; atm though I can tell for sure that 10 minutes for generating key is both fine and rather fast even.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: no rush, we'll find out how compares on given $iron when you get around to 18 .

diana_coman: on that d1 intel from http://ossasepia.com/2019/02/28/zcx-vs-sjlj-data-set/#selection-113.0-113.85 the tests of eucrypt that generate a key pair take at times ~20 min, just to give an idea ☟︎

asciilifeform: i also built at various points on a heathen i7 (2.8G) and there runs ~2x faster across the board, ftr

asciilifeform: ( the latter not used for any of the published tests, but to simply gauge the effect of 'modern' x86isms . fwiw does have constant-time mul etc )

asciilifeform deliberately uses oldest opteron in the torture room as 'standard ffa gauge' , if wasn't obv.

asciilifeform: ftr rk is effectively 2x, as measured, slower than this gauge box , on ffa.

asciilifeform: i expect that as moar folx eat ffa, we will have moar empirical figs to compare.

asciilifeform: fwiw 'speed of ffa' for applications involving modexp ( rsa keygen & enc/dec ) hinges ~entirely on speed of the multiplier unit in $iron .

Mocky: billymg: if your tinymce patch is ready this weekend I'll test it with my setup. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: whole tower of shit's derealizing at a shocking rate.

asciilifeform: in other noose, 100 shots of that 2048bit-prime baker : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/DjaVe/?raw=true ; min=13, max=299, avg=61, median=47 (seconds) .

asciilifeform: ( same params, i.e. pronounced prime if passes m-r with 32 rng-shat witnesses )

asciilifeform: ( for n00bz -- prime gen parallelizes, obv., over as many cpu as you have. but ffa per se does not use threads, tho it can be run inside threads with no added headache )

asciilifeform: 4**(-32) ~= 5.4210e-20 , probability of fatal misfire for 32 rounds of m-r

asciilifeform: i.e. if you run somehow 1 per sec, will eat a coupla dozen moon-size asteroids prior to getting misfire..

mircea_popescu: provided, of course, the witnesses aren't correlated.

asciilifeform: or rad event in yer irons, also fairly high prob regardless of how you baked rng

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: interestingly, iirc even to bake 32 liars (having control of the witnesses, presupposes) that 1) all diff 2) work for some n -- is open problem atm

mircea_popescu: afaik there was constructive approach

mircea_popescu: but also afaik, it doesn't work with "and all same size"

asciilifeform: nah i'd be satisfied with 'here's n, and here's 32 unequal m-r liars for n'

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, there's eg ~20mn carmichael numbers under 10^20 ☟︎

mircea_popescu: yes ; but by analogy i expect it's possible you have some m-r liars up to the large (4096 bit is a large number) numbers we're dealing wqith

mircea_popescu: the problem's converse : construct k integers that are false witnesses for the primality of the pq product.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: takes same time as to find m-r false witness for anyffing else

asciilifeform: i.e. throw p*q in m-r , with random witness, and see if correctly outputs 'composite'

mircea_popescu: ima have to dig this up, pretty sure i read up on this (very limited) mewthod of constructing m-r false witnesses for a two-primes product.

mircea_popescu: the principal problem with it was that they ended up large.

asciilifeform: then can say 'enemy who fed you a magic p, and then 32 selected witnesses, can lead you off cliff'

mircea_popescu: there is ~some~ overlap between carmichael and m-r (eg 1729 is a pretty reliable flase witness).

mircea_popescu: in fact m-r is a sorta upgraded fermat

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the operative diff is, 3/4 is lower bound. i.e. there aint a composite where 3/4 of the integers aint proper witness.

mircea_popescu: i just me4ant formally, p ^ n-1 = 1 vs p ^ (n-1)/2 = +-1

mircea_popescu: finding the nontrivial square roots of 1 modulo n is a hard problem ; but constructing some is not. anyway, not right now in the best form to go through archives but will see to this.

mircea_popescu: you're in luck!

mircea_popescu: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0747717185710425

mircea_popescu: dood actually lists a 400 digit number to which ~300 items are strong liars

mircea_popescu: (bases of a)

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, it wouldn't surprise me if we did, no.

mircea_popescu: packed somewhere im sure, but im not gonna proceed extracting rightnao.

asciilifeform: iirc i saw this item at some pt, and fella really did bake a p that 'passes m-r' for buncha ~small~ bases

asciilifeform: what'd be interesting is to find algo that bakes a large composite n , and shits forth arbitrary # of 'plausible-looking' large but false witnesses

asciilifeform: ( even moar interesting, would be to find litmus for some variant of this being in use, then could point it at phuctor collection & pull trigger )

mircea_popescu: in more practical terms : about 1/4 of products of strong liars are also strong liars, which is another constructive direction.

mircea_popescu: ie, you don';t have to try "all", but do try all mutual products of all known carmichael numbers.

mircea_popescu: the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-27#1905222 item is relevant, because if you were to enumerate the pairs you'd be looking at 20mn!/2!(20mn-2)!, which is truly a staggering nuymber, of possible liars of a size up to 10^40 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-03-27 23:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, there's eg ~20mn carmichael numbers under 10^20

mircea_popescu: but even taking a small selection among these to produce a sieve, and then churning a bunch of composites through it, might produce some lulz.

asciilifeform: all of this , as i understand, only is interesting if enemy knows (or can set) which will be your witnesses. cuz by basic m-r , 3/4 of possible inputs for witness will still give correct diagnosis of compositude

mircea_popescu: all of this is only interesting if enemy can set your witnesses, correct.

mircea_popescu: i thought that's what we were looking at.

asciilifeform: will be lulzy if we end up finding that koch's 'whitener' actually optimizes for sad N

mircea_popescu: another piece of the puzzle is that while small numbers are ~perfect~ witnesses for up to a certain value, they become terrible witnesses thereupon, which is why small witnesses are useless in crypto

mircea_popescu: (and also why the usual crowd of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-02#1883944 systematically push them) ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-02 18:57 mircea_popescu: what's hilarious is the ever-present http://trilema.com/2017/global-warming-on-triton/#selection-154.0-157.103 whereby they'll imaginarily seat themselves in my seat and start spewing http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1809349 slash assorted nonsense about "homebrew crypto" lalala.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall, the derpcrypto folx use not only small, but ~fixed~ witnesses, lol

asciilifeform is almost surprised none of'em left comment in ffa series, 'bbbut didntcha read in schneier, you oughtnt homebrew crypto!11'