tmsr - Log 2019-03-18

mircea_popescu: usb_net_drivers - alf conf says n, options are only y or m, default is y. << heh.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my ( dulap & rk ) trees, eat 'n' re subj w/out choking

asciilifeform: the 'mandatory for yer own good' of usb nic must be quite recent.

asciilifeform: and may be worth the bother to find perpetrator and name ftr.

trinque: it's able to be N over here. "selected by" : USB_NET_RNDIS_WLAN [=n] && NETDEVICES [=y] && WLAN [=y] && USB [=y] && CFG80211 [=y]

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm curious wtf aes is doing in the kernel.

asciilifeform: trinque: any idea whether there is a www-navigable map of these anywhere ? ( a la ye olde trb flow graph 'wish item' ) ?

asciilifeform: ^ would be a primo kernel-cleansing aid, imho, if anyone has a free hand

asciilifeform clears chalkboard for ch18...

asciilifeform: meanwhile, in misc. lulz, http://qntra.net/2019/03/hate-strife-and-hate-strife-a-week-in-review/#comment-125935

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-17#1902996 << whole thing imho interesting. ☝︎

asciilifeform: http://archive.is/febOU#selection-113.0-119.197 << asciilifeform picked up 'jonesforth' ~decade ago, and barfed from this very thing

asciilifeform: ( it's entirely ok as illustration of forthism, but absolutely terrible from 'bootstrap' pov , for the reason described in linked piece )

asciilifeform: http://archive.is/febOU#selection-207.0-207.164 << imho if a lang is intrinsically difficult to bootstrap, it (and/or ~the iron~ chosen for the attempt) is thereby defective.

asciilifeform: ( see e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897834 thread ) ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 23:49 asciilifeform: if we had a sane iron, would be similarly easy to produce a back end ( and that's what asciilifeform thinks of as 'ada machine' )

asciilifeform: http://bvt-trace.net/2019/03/mes-part-1-stage0/#selection-29.94-29.340 << imho ~100% of the attempts on record , made exactly same mistake -- they assumed that 'architecture-specific aspects creep into the design of the boostrapping process' only concerns ~what is there~ in the arch, and not ~what is not there~ (e.g. sane memory management, type tags) . if you dun put the complexity of certain necessary sanities where it belongs -- i ☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: n iron -- you get 9000x the mass later.

asciilifeform: picture if i had made ffa deal in 32bit words, and then proclaimed 'implement bignum on that'. do you imagine the result would be in any sense 'fits in head' ?

asciilifeform: all of these folx, afaik, do ~exact same thing, they take the school cpu from their kindergarten textbook and proclaim 'hey this fits in head, let's bootstrap on it'

asciilifeform: the result is ~always~ a massive ball o'shit ~later~

asciilifeform: but author rarely cares to think about 'later'

asciilifeform: the notion that 'all irons are the same' , while correct in a narrow mathematical sense , has done a good bit of damage . arguably turned entire field into garbage, at that.

bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-17#1902991 << as far as the 'stage0' is concerned, there is one guy manaloneing (OriansJ in #bootstrappable), and a dozen of people watching. can't say anything about 'mes' yet, it has a different author. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-03-17 15:05 mircea_popescu: bvt http://archive.is/febOU#selection-89.0-89.194 << are these people still active or is it basically ozymandias over there ?

bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-17#1903106 << i also agree that it is; i don't find myself knowledgable enough to make a decision on the republican cpu architecture, but for bootstrapping using ice40 with its limited resources a simple mips core sounded fitting. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-03-17 18:55 mircea_popescu: IMO it makes no sense adopting the VM, given that apparently mips.v7 will be the republican CPU architecture on ice40. << i very much not agree ; much too soon to standardize this.

asciilifeform: ( on the other end of the barf -- picture, C is what they want to bootstrap. because somehow can have sanity while preserving GB of pointerfandangoandcrashlang in the stack, somehow . )

asciilifeform: i suspect that the 'let's bootstrap c' thing comes from a narrow fixation on thompsonism to the exclusion of the other 9000 leprosies of the pdp age.

bvt: asciilifeform: yes, this is a problem; for example, their x86_64 hex0-2, as little sense as this can make (in presence of intel me&etc), are done as linux binaries: currently their goal is to bootstrap linux

asciilifeform: pretty sad imho.

asciilifeform: i.e. to go through the sweat of building an arch, only to then plant kernighan and poettering on top again.

asciilifeform: bvt: was this 'can' accompanied by a 'did' ?

asciilifeform: characteristically of people who set out to solve the Wrong Problem , they will trip over own feet 9000 times and learn 0

bvt: well, the question is then, whether we want to do this for cuntoo -- this work will need some resources dedicated to it.

asciilifeform: i cannot speak for others, but from my pov cuntoo is a wartime t34 , and defo not something i like to picture myself using 20y from nao

asciilifeform: ( or for that matter any other unix, ditto )

bvt: i.e. finishing stage0/mes integration, and also there is a problem of bootstrapping gnat

asciilifeform: ( ditto gnat. the troo adatron would be a ~50kloc bolix-style ada on sane iron support, rather than crusty old gnat )

BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i cannot speak for others, but from my pov cuntoo is a wartime t34 , and defo not something i like to picture myself using 20y from nao << Someone's probably sealing Cuntoo'd devices in cement within 5 years

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: i know for a fact that there exist pdp8 in actual cement, last i knew still processing inputs . so it aint entirely out of the question.

asciilifeform: imho nuffin linus et al shat out rises to anywhere near the level you'd want for this, but again 'you go to war with army you have'(tm)(r) etc

BingoBoingo: A lot of questions are very very open, but cement is one of the cheaper ingredients in the seal in cement formula.

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: funnily enuff, even ~this~ is trickier than you think -- ordinary cement ( and epoxies as well ) cure exothermically

asciilifeform: and tend to bake semiconductor

asciilifeform has a jar of non-exothermic epoxy for potting electronics, it aint cheap

asciilifeform: mno this aint why

asciilifeform: concrete dust (like all combustible dusts) is a 'fuel-air' boom

asciilifeform: old sovok practicaljoak -- shake out bag of flour in a room, then leave the light bulb with filament sans glass

asciilifeform: consider the not-uninteresting fact, that on 370,000-transistor bolix, ada was 50kloc ; while on 3bil+-transistor x86, ada (gnat cum gcc cum deps) is , what, 1mil+ ? and their kernel was iirc ~50kloc, while ours...

asciilifeform: and it aint even necessary to saw open a bolix to see why this was. they didn't have to have a did_machine_do_what_i_said(...) after ~erry line.

asciilifeform: nor a does_this_pointer_point_to_hell() , etc

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: ffa is 3 ch away from fieldable beta atm ; so in attempt to avoid ending up like mod6 , i'm currently 100% in it. afterwards will switch for a spell to 100% elbows in piz. ☟︎

asciilifeform: ( to be pedantic -- peh. ffa proper , is imho done, unless a reader finds apeloyee-style 'here's where you could have 2x faster' thing )

BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Cool. Once the test subject gets here I'll start working on learning Cuntoo through practice.

asciilifeform: if someone thinks he needs a ~number-theoretical~ knob that 1) is missing in current ffa 2) cannot be efficiently baked out of the primitives -- he had better speak up soon.

asciilifeform: ( ideally i could rule out the existence of such thing as a class, but alas cannot )

asciilifeform: the knobs still on conveyor are -- subroutines; hash ; constant-time table lookups. that's it.

asciilifeform: asmism , i consider a luxury -- ffa is designed to operate reasonably quickly on commonplace iron without it.

asciilifeform: in other lulz, karpeles walks.

asciilifeform: 'suspended sentence'

asciilifeform: it aint a mega-surprise, imho, which is wai imho it merits 1ln in l0gz but not entire dispatch.

asciilifeform: ( tho if BingoBoingo writes the latter, i'ma read )

BingoBoingo: Well, he's also locked into it with some other derps, both groups wanting to resurrect a MtGox

asciilifeform: lol wainot also resurrect 'west indies co' and 'savings & loan' etc

BingoBoingo: And I'm not seeing any motive to revive the toxic MtGox brand other than psyop value "Look at those Buttcoiners forgiving the scamzor"

asciilifeform: and kpss.

asciilifeform: i suppose there is a 'no such thing as bad publicity' school of 'thought'...

BingoBoingo: And in other tales of Chorros Uruguayos: "Interrogado sobre lo ocurrido, admitió su responsabilidad, pero aseguró que el siniestro había sido accidental. En su declaración explicó que su intención era robar el combustible de la moto, y en medo de la oscuridad intentó ayudarse haciendo luz con un encendedor. Como resultado, el combustible ardió y la moto fue consumida. Además, el ladrón sufrió quemaduras en manos y pies."

BingoBoingo: Note "robar el combustible" is a common sort of venerated trabajo among Mujica voters

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: do they have those fancy locking tank caps like in '90s ru ? or notyet

BingoBoingo: This neighborhood's trash is apparently good enough to keep the demographic from taking the risk with gasoline theft here.

BingoBoingo: Not usually police risk, but risk of other bums "Don't ruin a good thing retard"

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-17#1903082 << discussion in teh haremobile meanwhile excavated a 4th possible line of reasoning, "the perversity of human nature, can only do something when it's not what's supposed to be done -- then and then only is it ok." witness all the kids going to college to party (that's not what it's for, which is what makes it ok). ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-03-17 17:01 mircea_popescu: anyway, BingoBoingo 's theory can also be constructed into a third possible explanation : VHS america for a new generation, "they're so loose there, so '''freee''', sons even fuck their mothers!!!" thinks 19yo chowdry rasmadumberthanrockes while wanking it in glee.

asciilifeform: there was an old mircea_popescu piece where 'the french set up elaborate system for fucking each other's wives' etc

asciilifeform: i recall

BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: It appears to be the winner on Qntra as far as comments that didn't get spammed. Some of the spams stretch on and on with links to nowhere.

BingoBoingo: But, that corner is/was Nordic US, I don't think it got to participate much in the America days of the colonies

BingoBoingo: Buncha sad Swedes and other Nordics building apartments in their barns and living in that arrangement until Rooseveltism disrupted them.

asciilifeform: to briefly revisit older unrelateds , http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-15#1902888 >> will be also 256 permissible subroutines, unless mircea_popescu et al disagree ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-03-15 15:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think 256 is perfectly defensible. should be obvious what knob to twiddle for less or more anyway, admitting either one's trying to make ffa fit into tiny embed or use it for who knows what unforeseen purpose on large machines.

mircea_popescu: this sort of thing can't be well answered without practice anyway. if it needs revisiting, it'll be revisited under the pressure of all these people using all these hundreds of sub clals.

asciilifeform: ( this is the last param to be put to this q, where walk b/w 'scylla' of magicnumberism and 'charybdis' of unknownramfootprintism )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho nuffin pertaining to publickey crypto has any fucking biznis containing anywhere near 256 routines

asciilifeform: and sure will be revisited if it had to be . but i try and presently fail to come up with a scenario where it oughta be, rather than answer of 'take braindamaged pubkey that needs 257 routines somewhere else, ty'

asciilifeform bbl,meat

asciilifeform: for thread-completeness : 'peh' has exactly 50 subroutines ( 37 procedures, 13 functions ) ; ffa : 245 ( 166 procedures , 79 functions ) .

asciilifeform: this is counting i/o glue and errything .

asciilifeform: ( and subs internal to subs, permitted in ada planet just as they are in pascal )

mircea_popescu: it's like dealing with [what i remember to be 12yo boys]. "oh, bitcoin, yeah, i remember, all i bought was a single pizza. biggest regret!!!".

mircea_popescu: prior to this, my icon of such boyish idiocy would have been this chatlog from sometime around the first iraq war, where some kid literally pretended to be teleporting himself over there for half an hour or somesuch. because you know, he's such a debonair cool dude and all, the coming together of cellphone trend and "working for cia" trend in a thick sauce of general cluelessness.

mircea_popescu: i suppose now this can take over, on the grounds that at least it's linkable. just as fucking iconic at any rate.

mircea_popescu: after all, previous one took over on account of being public, from the even earlier private equivalent. ☟︎