asciilifeform: ACHTUNG, panzers! zoolag going down for ~30min for test of experimental patch, in ~10m
BingoBoingo: In other grotesque perversions: http://archive.is/et1V4
BingoBoingo: With a higher body count: http://archive.is/dSzNm
asciilifeform: !Q later tell phf i found today that your keccak-vdiff is unable to eat a 40MB file ( dies politely with stack overflow )
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: this is not good.
asciilifeform: it's a fairly simple fix, as i understand, gotta up the max stack
asciilifeform: but , importantly, will have to arrive at a max, if using stack.
asciilifeform: there is not a magical way out of this on linux, sadly.
asciilifeform: meanwhile: ACHTUNG, PANZERS! >> http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-October/000315.html
asciilifeform: ( and yes mod6 it will have to be reground, but it experimental patch, so this is not avoidable at any rate )
asciilifeform: ( for the impatient : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/trb/snap_546400.txt )
asciilifeform: !Q later tell phf plox to snarf http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-October/000315.html into 'experiment' tree.
lobbesbot: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: adventurous souls who can spare ~hour of CPU, are invited to shit out own snapshot, and diff w/ above.
asciilifeform: errybody oughta see exactly ~same~ output.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform should prolly go in the config file o.O
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: imho yes
asciilifeform: iirc can even be set machinewide, but i fughet how
mircea_popescu: i guess so. there were some other items scattered about re what should go in the config file for vtron
asciilifeform: there is of course another method, keccak could use my mmap thing
asciilifeform: ( once i finally shit out the cleaned/reground/keccakized genesis thereof, it's near in the conveyor )
asciilifeform: bonus, will run substantially faster.
asciilifeform: really mmap is the champ for disk i/o on unixlikes.
mircea_popescu: not a bad idea, at that.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-20#1864346 << ty, this is a bug in vdiff for sure, i'll investigate ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-10-20 01:44 asciilifeform: !Q later tell phf i found today that your keccak-vdiff is unable to eat a 40MB file ( dies politely with stack overflow )
lobbesbot: phf: Sent 12 hours and 59 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> i found today that your keccak-vdiff is unable to eat a 40MB file ( dies politely with stack overflow )
lobbesbot: phf: Sent 12 hours and 52 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> plox to snarf http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-October/000315.html into 'experiment' tree.
phf: i suspect when i was removing various optimizations from c diff, i removed something that let it eat larger files, because regular diff obviously diffs
phf: i also don't think it's a stack allocation issue, ksum against the file works, and the integration between c diff and keccak was designed with chunk reading in mind
asciilifeform: phf: it's an ada stack overflow, so almost certainly in keccak
asciilifeform: and it happens prior to any output
asciilifeform: try it yourself, the 40M snapshot txt from last night was the trigger
phf: hmm, i wonder if it's maybe c/ada interop? straight ksum gives me the answer, and it uses the same incremental mechanism (already trie)d
phf: 70af5c296fb8a9e9bae4c871cbedc67345db91f3e380170fc07b83871e8b5079b9ae55d44a7f5c9afb6eea64211712eaf88a608a4d7e52bcf209c425f776cc9c snap_546400.txt
asciilifeform: ha
asciilifeform: i was on a box without the standalone keccak, so tried to use vdiff to get keccakization
phf: diana_coman's keccak interface uses a KeccakWholeThing(...) method (not the actual name), in vtools i added a new interface, which follows the classical hasher format: KeccakCtx() UpdateCtx(ctx, data) EndCtx(ctx, resultHash)
phf: so data would be stack friendly in this case, which is also how ksum is written
phf: but i like your suggestion also, i suspect diana's interface can be used against your mmap result
asciilifeform: phf: not sure yet, the bytes->bits bloatism might get in the way
asciilifeform: it will have to be cured at some point, keccakization currently eats 8x moar memory (9x if counting the fact that it cannot run in-place) than it ought
phf: so i have a vdiff that takes an -s flag (enables sha512), and it works fine
phf: +++ b/snap_546400.txt 326782a77b9ca1d83da6af8e28f305d5fd6c0b509507effbf50f1cd932c4e882edeb8887632664c073c8dca097145cada941490efdae6443e82bbb85a9ca1371
asciilifeform: possibly my stack is set smaller than yours ?
asciilifeform: will have to check
asciilifeform: i'm curious what it was that overflowed it tho
phf: no no, that's an unreleased enable sha512, so my point is that it must be something in ada/c interop, or the particular way i do it in vdiff: ksum works though it uses same interface, vdiff sha512 works though it uses an architecturally identical sha interface.
asciilifeform: aah hm.
Mocky: oh my god I found some humans today
Mocky: talked to me for a couple hours about biznis, Qataris etc. got some good info
phf: you made it to a hookah bar then?
phf: is joke see, all middle eastern business is done at hookah bars
Mocky: yes, actually, but they don't call it hookah here, they call it shisha. but that wasn't today and no humans in sight
Mocky: today was at a cheesecake factory, in a mall bigger than my home town in which I got lost twice
phf: they ought to call it argile, but i suspect shisha is more international. in turkey they call it nargile almost exclusively, and only call it shisha when trying to communicate with a foreigner
phf: my iranians call it kalyan which is also how we call it in russian.
asciilifeform: 'И, склонясь в дыму кальяна На цветной диван, У жемчужного фонтана Дремлет Тегеран' (tm)(r) !
asciilifeform: http://www.runivers.ru/bookreader/books/18669/0005.gif << oblig illust.
asciilifeform: Mocky: what sorta humans ?
Mocky: phf well i've only spoken to foreigners here about it so that could be the case here as well, but it does say "shisha" on the printed menu, but also printed in english for foreigners
Mocky: an older american lady who works in a qatari house and has authority over the financial dealings of the sons with business degrees from uni and because of the status of the father (her boss) there are other lower station qataris that she doesn't need to listen to
Mocky: the other was an Egyptian veterinary doctor who has been working freelance here for some years
Mocky: i met others as well, europeans, americans, canadians but they didn't know about biz or qataris enough to contribute to the convo
asciilifeform: phf: what does your ulimit -s say ? mine's 8192 kB
phf: asciilifeform: i figured out what the issue is
asciilifeform: aite, will wait for full postmortem
phf: diff's block reader doesn't necessarily attempt to keep the blocks small, allocates a 39098690 buffer, which crosses the boundary and immediatelly hits the part you've already pointed out: x8 bitstream allocator
phf: bitstream allocation happens on stack, so..
phf: i suspect a temporary solution as far as vdiff is concerned is to spoon feed keccak smaller blocks
asciilifeform: really, keccak oughta be doable in-place. but i haven't loaded it into my head yet and cannot immediately say how to rewrite equation so that it could
phf: Mocky: oh yeah i didn't mean to imply that in qatar specifically it's only foreigners term, seems like the words used are entirely regional, e.g. egyptians call it shisha also. i've smoked too much hookah, so i like to know the whole set, so that i can effectively communicate with the locals :)
deedbot: http://bimbo.club/?p=60 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 08/24/2018
billymg: everything running nicely now -- writeup forthcoming
asciilifeform: oh hey
asciilifeform: loads
billymg: many thanks to esthlos, hanbot, BingoBoingo, phf for helpful posts
billymg: and to trinque for giving me the task
billymg: curious what type of browser environments the lords use -- when writing a theme for mp-wp will need to know what kind of font, css, js support to expect
asciilifeform: billymg: pretty much errybody uses 'lynx' at least occasionally, and sometimes ordinary graphical browser
asciilifeform: ( iirc there's even somebody with early 2000s 'opera' )
asciilifeform: billymg: most folx have multiple boxes, for different occasions, with diff contents
billymg: ah
billymg: is there perhaps a list of "definitely don't use [feature], will never load for republicans"
asciilifeform: js is used pretty much entirely for mircea_popescu's linkable-text-selection thing
asciilifeform: (afaik nowhere else)
asciilifeform: there aren't really explicit lists of 'don't's, the philosophy is really 'don't do obviously dumb things'
billymg nods
billymg: ok, that makes sense
asciilifeform: e.g. building a www that doesn't correctly display when put through archive.is , is evidence of having done something dumb
billymg: aha
asciilifeform: ( various heathen sites routinely 'load content dynamically' etc )
billymg: this is a nice heuristic
asciilifeform: if your thing is bookmarkable, and readable in 'curl' output, it's generally healthy.
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-20#1864394 -> oh hey, nice! ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-10-20 15:13 Mocky: talked to me for a couple hours about biznis, Qataris etc. got some good info
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-20#1864385 -> yes; perhaps as it gets used more, the trouble becomes more pressing and then it'll get done... ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-10-20 14:55 asciilifeform: it will have to be cured at some point, keccakization currently eats 8x moar memory (9x if counting the fact that it cannot run in-place) than it ought
asciilifeform: billymg: on list of 'definitely nobody in his right mind will use' -- sslism comes to mind
asciilifeform: diana_coman: which item in your 'shelf' contains the most recent keccak , to go from ?
diana_coman: billymg, flash won't load
asciilifeform: lol afaik even the heathens have largely forgotten flashism
diana_coman: asciilifeform, eucrypt, that's where keccak lives
asciilifeform: ok as i thought, ty
diana_coman: np
diana_coman: and re flashism...idiotic stuff tends to linger
asciilifeform: somewhere, on some forgotten www, prolly even 'shockwave' lingers
asciilifeform: but for the most part crapple succeeded in exterminating flashism ( to replace with own 'html5' abortion )
diana_coman: ah, I don't quite distinguish between them really
asciilifeform: they're distinguishable ~only in that 'flash' at this point requires elaborate gymnastics to run, involving pretty much sacrifice of a whole box (sorta like java)
asciilifeform: whereas 'html5' past ~decade of graphical browsers will mostly display (if with eggogs)
asciilifeform: afaik the only thinking folx today with copy of 'flash' are , like asciilifeform , running it on dedicated winblowz leprosorium, specifically for unpacking virii which require it...
asciilifeform: and come to think of it, i dun think i've used mine in several yrs.
diana_coman: I have one box for all the shit, yes
Mocky: so i dug into what it's like to be in business with Qataris and how their attitudes are, with my 11 new acquaintances at breakfast today. 3 of them have had first hand experience in their business dealings for years now and happy to tell stories. I'll relay the gist of it here. on the following points there was not the slightest disagreement from anyone at the table, only nodding heads and further stories illustrating the exact same points.
asciilifeform stands up ears, tunes in
Mocky: They have a very poor appreciation for intangibles. They want to get something they can hold in their hand when they spend money. If it's something they can't see, they balk at paying for it. And if they do pay for it, it'll bother them to no end. One example was dude decided he wanted a car, ordered a brand new, fully customized Bentley. 350k USD. Wouldn't go pick it up when it arrived because balked at having to pay 900 USD /month for insurance. not
Mocky: because insurance was to expensive for the given coverage, but because "paying money to get nothing".
Mocky: Another example was horse needed some major surgery. owner had no problem paying for facilities, staff, ancillaries but balked at paying surgeon fee. "i pay you much less for minor treatments, why must I pay more for your time now". Selling them preventative medicine or machine maintenance is a non-starter. They'd rather pay 10x when the emergency hits because then they know they are getting something for their money.
asciilifeform: Mocky: is the implication also that they dun bother to look into totalcostofownership before buying ? hence the legends of bedouin sheiks buying a merc and leaving it in desert when fuel tank empty ..?
Mocky: impression i got was totalcostofownership can't compete with how they feel about it in their gut
diana_coman: hm, re insurance I'm not sure it is evidence of "wouldn't pay if not tangible"
asciilifeform: Mocky: sounds like they're perfect candidates for selling iron to, rather than softs, then
diana_coman: more of "wouldn't pay if I don't need it" and they might not need the shitinsurance
Mocky: diana_coman, that could be a reasonable assumption and i suggested the same to my companions, they shook thier heads.
Mocky: i've haven't seen personally, so all i can do is report for now
Mocky: This goes hand in hand with their feeling that everyone comes to Qatar to take their money and rip them off. So all these fancy insurance / maintenance contracts "feel" like they give nothing to the buyer, plus they were dreamed up by foreigners who come to rip them off and decieve them. They detest such things. Easier to sell them a spoon they can old in their hand today for a million dollars than get them to agree to a monthly payout to a vet for care of
Mocky: a stable of horses, no matter how much it saves them in the long run.
diana_coman: Mocky, maybe it's worth writing it all up in a blog post? it seems to me you have quite a lot to say and it's easier to have a reference point afterwards
asciilifeform: possibly will be a tough audience for the traditional type of consulting, where you '$ 1 : turned screw $499,999 -- knowing which screw'
diana_coman: honestly, by this description I start even liking them
Mocky: also seems to go hand in hand with their impulsiveness. 3 different people described this exact scenario. Qatari goes opens a business with someone (one freelance vet service, one animal rescue shelter, one doggy day care) 3 months later decides, "I didn't realize I was going to have to keep paying so much every month (payroll, rent, etc.) where's the profit?" "it may take a year to become profitable, it's only been 3 months" "I'm not paying anymore." which
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I don't think so; I think they would pay *you* that 500k if you manage to convince them that you are worth that for them
Mocky: isn't necessarily bad, but bad that they waited till 3 months in to even think about it. In the case of the shelter, it was a charity, never meant to make a profit. but still "dun wanna pay anymore"
diana_coman: but they won't pay rando "expert" that, no
asciilifeform: diana_coman: hmm, from my reading seems that they won't pay anybody for 'which screw' , gotta also supply a physical talisman they can hang on wall
asciilifeform: but i'ma let Mocky elaborate, possibly diff will become clear
asciilifeform: thus far sounds like typical savages, with both plus and minus, won't buy 'how to dig well' but will buy musket.
Mocky: Also re impulsiveness: one school adminsitrator said they have a rule of 3 for instructions comeing down from Qatari management. Let them ask three times including an official goverment memo before you do anything they say. Because as soon as they start to see the fall out of random impulsive decisions they will reverse it and have you undo all your work.
asciilifeform: Mocky: funnily enuff, it's how i deal with americans..
diana_coman: ahahahah
Mocky: and this wasn't like just one school. was city wide "make every teacher do x" after 900 parent complaints "stop doing x"
diana_coman: so "impulsiveness" would be "don't think it through"? or "won't listen/care about more than 2 steps ahead"?
Mocky: came across like simpleton management, decree whatever occurs to you, dilbert-esque pointy haired manager on steroids
Mocky: like both don't think and won't listen
Mocky: One Qatari owns a chain of 9 fittness supplement stores. 3 of the stores were found to have someone pocketing the cash from transactions. Owner fired everyone in all 9 stores because "see, everyone tries to steal from us". Also he had his driver who can barely count to 10 doing store inventory for him.
diana_coman: so why are those people starting doggy rescue/care biznis in qatar of all places?
Mocky: that I don't know
asciilifeform: diana_coman: ikr? it's the last thing i'd think of pitching to dar-al-islam
diana_coman: because somehow it does read like "oh, they have money, let's bleed them"
asciilifeform: ( what's next , pet pig rescue in israel ?? )
Mocky: Word is that they want to make a profit, but don't want to have to put money into it. and they want the profit now. but don't think it thru, maybe can be convinced easily
Mocky: and don't want to have to put sweat into it either
asciilifeform: Mocky: out of curiosity, didja see even one dog ?
Mocky: maybe they want to claim "i started a charity like my older brother" no idea yet why
asciilifeform: anywhere
Mocky: no dogs but word this morning was that expat western women keep them here like surrogate children just as elsewhere, and there are enough to make a good business
Mocky: cats a plenty
asciilifeform: aaah western women
asciilifeform: Mocky: cat is a++ mohammed-approved beast. biznis d00d oughta have opened a cat biz.
Mocky: but ~all cats i've seen are stones throw from open dumpster. i bet if they had auto-closing lids on dumpsters cats would go extinct
asciilifeform: hm so not like turks, then..
Mocky: the cats tho! so skinny and downs syndrome looking
Mocky: and move so slowly
Mocky: to much time seeing fat cats in US
Mocky: Being as the requirement for standard LLC is 51% Qatari ownership, this new info suggests to me that having two locals who split the 51% may be the way to go. They can still close it down but not at the whim of a single person.
Mocky: And sticking a Qatari with ongoing expenditures was never on my radar, def seems like something to explicitly avoid.
Mocky: files swim to safety?
Mocky: fuck, ignore
Mocky: too many keyboards sitting on lap
asciilifeform: lol
Mocky: got a years worth of rain here today
diana_coman: Mocky, I wonder though how much those burnt partners actually catered to the qatari partner as an ongoing relationship rather than just "he gives money for my biznis" (and how the hell is a charity a business, ugh)
asciilifeform: good q -- what's their notion of charity, anyway
mats: reads like some qataris are like amateur daytraders
mats: pretense of doing business without having to do it
mats: impress dad
asciilifeform: Mocky: unrelated q -- are qataris fixated on precious metals, like in dubai ?
Mocky: i get the impression from other talks (not today) that there is no end of "i have great biz idea for importing from my home country india" being pitched
Mocky: asciilifeform, this I haven't heard, but flashy stuff like rolex, lambos, bentleys I have heard
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform worked for some yrs for a fella who regularly traveled to dubai, and never failed to mention the 'gold bar ATMs' )
asciilifeform: Mocky: aand do they still stick to the koranic prohibition against lending-at-interest ? (is that why they spend on 'bling' and oddball 'charity' ..? )
asciilifeform: ( i dun recall whether mircea_popescu revealed whether this is troo in egypt, also, come to think of it )
Mocky: yes lending at interest illegal. credit card issuance with interest, illegal
asciilifeform: how do they even do lending ? fully collateralized loans only ?
Mocky: bank invests, shares profit
Mocky: if there is more beyond that, i haven't dug deep enough to find it
Mocky: bitcoin is also illegal for banks to exchange in. which apparently some wanted to do but now central bank authority has banned
Mocky: re meeting Qataris, I found that 30-something aged men interested in business hang out at certain places on a daily basis. if you go and hang there and get to know them, if they like you they may invite you to majalis. which is the regular practice of closing off half of the home from women in the evening and doing man cave shit
Mocky: normally is informal "playstation" time, but occasionally, perhaps once a week, it's more formal and they talk business
Mocky: this is only done by qataris established enough to have own household
Mocky: the vet doc has been invited 12 times. he said in the beginning he prepared things to say, ways to pitch business. but they never wanted to talk business with him, just playstation
Mocky: "majlis" not majalis
Mocky: the regular spots are mostly 5 star hotels on the water. St. Regis, The Four Seasons, The Pearl Qatar & Medina Centrale. Also there's some pickup beach volleyball at katara beach on fridays once the day cools off
Mocky: men from a couple of the most powerful families hang out at a Costa coffee chain in the shittiest mall in the city
Mocky: but that was suggested as not a good place to start
Mocky: a chick unrelated to todays info breakfast also suggested the coffee bar in La Cigal Hotel
BingoBoingo: <Mocky> i get the impression from other talks (not today) that there is no end of "i have great biz idea for importing from my home country india" being pitched << WTF does India export that people with options would buy?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: afaik -- pharma, ironwork.
BingoBoingo: Very short list.
asciilifeform: + slaves.
BingoBoingo: That's not an export, that's an educational charity
Mocky: remember, it's indians coming up with those ideas so options dun enter into it
BingoBoingo: <mats> reads like some qataris are like amateur daytraders << Kinda like early MPOE-PR era Bitcointalk
Mocky: it could also be that the above descriptions have selection bias of young Qatari biznis noobs, or peripheral wot members
Mocky: but so many nods around the table, makes me suspect flaws widely present, to some degree
BingoBoingo: Well, I mean they could also be stuck on 80's US bzbs books
Mocky: i also reached out to local bitcoin guy. turns out there are two. one sells other buys. I reached out the the seller but no response yet. The buyer doesn't have contact info listed and i don't have the bitcoin to answer his ad so haven't contacted yet.
Mocky: theres also a "blockchain doha" group with 103 members, I can reach out to
Mocky: I found out why cars are so nice toward pedestrians in the crosswalks. if you run a red, 3000 USD fine. cameras at most intersections
Mocky: also huge fine if you stop past the "stop line". If you go over camera starts recording, tiny light flashes. if you reverse back to proper spot and wave your hand out the window showing submission at the camera, you don't get a ticket!
Mocky: if you are a white woman or a doctor, cops very accommodating toward you, let you off tickets
Mocky: even if you're a crazy ass vet doc who keeps getting into accidents by not looking