mod6: %e v 1 S "Release V 99994" "Publish new version of V [99994]." 2,3
mod6: %e v 2 X "Update V Documentation" "Update V documentation for 99994 release." 4
mod6: %e v 3 T "Update Tests" "Update V cucumber tests for 99994 with specific testing around separate projects." 4
mod6: we'll see if i did that all backwards lol.
mod6: anyway, the good news is; its not chiseled into stone.
mod6: %a t S "Update tb0t with Long Notes" "After the implementation of the Long Notes feature, roll out new version of tb0t."
mod6: %e t 1 S "Update tb0t with Long Notes" "After the implementation of the Long Notes feature, roll out new version of tb0t." 1
mod6: %e t 1 S "Update tb0t with Long Notes" "After the implementation of the Long Notes feature, roll out new version of tb0t." 2
mod6: %a t F "Add Long Notes Feature" "Implement functionality so that users of T can create notes longer than 300 chars if necessary."
mod6: omg we've got projects and verk
mod6: ah cool, my graph did turn out right. lol. "i can use my own thing!"
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> you can't say lisp without S! << heheh. "lithp"
mod6: arg. what a long day. can't believe it's already the thirteenth
mircea_popescu: hey asciilifeform got a link to where you made the point in the log that most of what sane people do consists of cleaving the practical from the metaphysical or such ?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: i recall the word cleave being used but teh search is unhelpful
trinque: when you sit down to take a shit, but there's no paper, that's ISIS!
BingoBoingo: ^ for all your daily dose of valuation lols
phf: BingoBoingo: i think there are cases where impact driver applies, like if your bit gets stuck in metal, and you want to power through it, but like others said, don't drill metal with general bits. i've used impact driver on large wood builds and it's a joy to use, the torgue makes for a very rapid but controlled coupling. i think i might've grabbed one to do drilling in a pinch, but i wouldn't say i noticed much difference one way or
phf: another. it's definitely harder to make a precise hole with an impact driver too.
phf: basically that rapid torgue will help where you need torgue (like with a stuck bit), but hinder where you need precision, like if the end started running you'll scrape whatever
ben_vulpes: do not impact driver your destructive fasteners.
BingoBoingo: Seriously though who the fuck decided to use loctite to secure a wear item
ben_vulpes: it is perhaps forgivable if you Swear to God to not back the lag bolt out and ever use the hole for anything ever again, but that is straight up dangerous because you cannot make guarantees about who will do what with your holes out of your sight.
ben_vulpes: useful when you have a nut on the far side. the hammer helps to overcome static friction on the bolt/nut planes, thereby letting you twist the bolt a little further.
ben_vulpes: kinda like the "don't break and turn" at the same time mantra.
ben_vulpes: vibration drops your axial friction, and to a degree your planar friction.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: perhaps, but my pyres held numerous people and were assemblableable by noobs on drugs with a minimum of oversight.
ben_vulpes: one does not haul a thing to the playa unfurled.
phf: ben_vulpes: you cannot make guarantees about who will do what with your holes? how so? you mean for long term construction?
ben_vulpes: or perhaps some do, i never got to party with the 3lite sillicon valley crowd
ben_vulpes: phf: naw i mean like overtorquing and wallowing out a destructive fastener hole.
phf: pfft put a second bolt next to first one :D
ben_vulpes: the design was 3 bolts through 3 beams at each intersection point
trinque: assemblableable << lost all composure right hnnyah
mircea_popescu: get the girls all drugged up, make them pronounce "assemblableable" evening's entertainment right there!
ben_vulpes: i'm trying to dig up the original source of this design and completely failing
ben_vulpes: mnah, mortise and tenon has the beam itself shaped into tongues and grooves to sit into itself
mircea_popescu: what else do you bolt, the bare beam for ornamentation ?
phf: well, since it sounds like we're both talking from burn build experience, some people get impact drills and some don't. if i overtorque i just put a second one next to it. it's not pretty, but it ensures that bunch of drugged out hippies can do somersaults on the thing
phf: but ultimately cuts my build time. there's only so many days you can spend building a wood structure in 50 degree direct sun desert hit
ben_vulpes: factors of safety come in many flavors
ben_vulpes: i learned on the mutant vehicles before doing any pyreworks, so have a built-in preference for reusable steel stuffs
ben_vulpes: not that any bolt is reusable after that kind of fire tho
phf: i've been building with the same master carpenter so we usually start with a pile of wood, pile lag bolts and dodgy plans from various artist friends, so speed and malleability are prime considerations
phf: but yeah i don't imagine any of that stuff is reusable after a burn
ben_vulpes: i think that's why i like working on the mvs
phf: well, it helps that you're within driving distance from site
phf: also we are burning bmorg money anyway :D
phf: well, then i've no idea how you work on mvs unless you go to oakland for summer pre event or something
ben_vulpes: just looks like a decommissioned avis bus with a platform on top during the rainy parts of the year
phf: i take it with baby vulpes you're not coming this year?
phf: in any case portland to nevada looks like a great drive, i think i'm going to do a purely recreational drive from colorado or wyoming
phf: an upstanding, respectable gentleman :p
ben_vulpes: i just lost patience with other people's bullshit
ben_vulpes: my multiple-week-summer-vacation is now to a house on the sound side of vancouver island where we play music extremely loudly eat all sorts of interesting things and motor about on each others motorthingers
phf: i think that's a pretty common transition
ben_vulpes: unfortunately, because it's in canada (and this is in no way different from the burn) there are no firearms to discharge irresponsibly
phf: i rarely have an inclination to bring rifle to burn like events, and the kind of events that allow rifles are a bit too beer&jesus for my taste. or whatever jesus substitute they do dawkins science.
phf: the cross over of young people who are into burn like events and young people who are into shootin'&dune buggies is particularly obnoxious in u.s.
a111: Logged on 2016-01-19 21:55 ascii_butugychag: pete_dushenski: try to understand the perspective of inventor. for x,xxx years churchmen prattled on about sex and reproduciton 'cannot cut apart'. and now they can go get stuffed.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 00:48 mircea_popescu: hey asciilifeform got a link to where you made the point in the log that most of what sane people do consists of cleaving the practical from the metaphysical or such ?
a111: Logged on 2016-06-13 23:39 mod6: and since now we have; trb, t, v, ... and many others probably forthcoming, one should need to specify what they want to pull down locally.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-13 23:43 mod6: Which also means, it almost makes no sense to even publish the v-genesis.vpatch that I currently have as it is no use to anyone if they can't grab a canonical version from the mirror. All they'd be able to do is get it from the mailing list, with the seal, and drop it into their local working directory as one would expect.
mircea_popescu: no ; but it stands to reason. he's not coming in conflict with that is he ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re cleaving thing : found it, credited it to you in latest trilema.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-13 23:43 mod6: Which also means, it almost makes no sense to even publish the v-genesis.vpatch that I currently have as it is no use to anyone if they can't grab a canonical version from the mirror. All they'd be able to do is get it from the mailing list, with the seal, and drop it into their local working directory as one would expect.
mircea_popescu: uh. i dun think what you're thinking about is being discussed.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let's go into detail here. so, the observation was, that as v is used in multiple projects, it makes no sense all the files be dumped in the same directory. this is sound. what directory shall they be dumped into ?
mircea_popescu: logically, it can only be the name of the genesis block.
mircea_popescu: because, for any given genesis block, the possible patches are universally available ; and the only way to obtain variant builds is through pruning the sigs.
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as "cannonical", but there is a "total patch universe".
a111: Logged on 2016-02-08 20:09 ascii_butugychag: i will half-seriously suggest that we refer to the ~set of patches, seals, keys~ that a particular vtron is aware of at his particular point in spacetime, as... his lightcone
mod6: so i kinda see this in two ways. either i place v/t/whatever into /v/ and we have many multiple roots, inwhich case when you pull from the mirror you end up with the following dirs: bitcoin, t, v, whatever, ... or we can break this up into multiple projects.
phf: something to keep in mind is that vpatch paths already include top level directory, like for example all the bitcoin ones are bitcoin/... so pressing them into an empty directory foo will result in foo/bitcoin/... tree
mod6: and in this case, some of these things are somewhat related, and that might be ok. but in the future, there might be things that are not so closely related. so might be trying to get out in front and make this able to handle multiple projects by seperating them out.
mod6: these are multiple roots.
mircea_popescu: mod6 the part where each press should end up collected in the /genesis-hash/ dir is settled, i thought ?
mircea_popescu: phf the problem is there's no good way to extract that alias string. maybe yours is bitcoin and mine is Bit-coin
mod6: one inflates the trb universe into bitcoin, the other into v. i guess it doesn't have to be that way.. v-genesis could be added later on down the line as a leaf node. but then it probably shouldn't be named "genesis" as that seems to break the convention.
mod6: mircea_popescu: well, i think it's a better, cleaner practice.
mod6: just trying to address alf's messages.
mircea_popescu: yeah but i'm totally lost as to what you're saying. looky : v works by starting with a genesis. correct ?
mircea_popescu: now, why not put its work product in a directory named for the genesis employed ?
mircea_popescu: that solves everything. and a different project will necessary have a diff genesis, so separated.
mod6: im fine with this too -- alf sees this as a mistake. so just thought I'd take a minute to address the alternative. unless there is something that I haven't considered? asciilifeform? suggestions?
mod6: let's paint a picture.
mod6: let's say that i have this project called `t'. and I'd like to make it readily availble and a genesis for this specific tool.
mod6: where should this vpatch live?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because "everything together" monolith ?
mircea_popescu: mod6 in /8a5485a/ provided "8a5485a" is the genesis' hash
mircea_popescu: then you're not making any sense. there can be exactly 1 genesis for any press, build, v etc.
mircea_popescu: this is the definition of this term. "the first item".
mircea_popescu: "a genesis" makes no sense ; vpatches with no antecendents are merely that - vpatches with no antecedents. the genesis is the first item.
mircea_popescu: yeah ; well iirc that was a broken early experimental attempt by you ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in the sense that it fails to attack to the tree it is very broken. i have no idea why a v build would even include it.
mircea_popescu: actually : a v build that, upon pressing genesis, includes 1-of-2 is ipso facto broken.
mircea_popescu: there is not nor should there be such a rthing as "dual headed".
mircea_popescu: and to my eyes this is an essential point of wtf we're even doing here in the first place.
mod6: so we are agreed then that things outside of the trb light-cone, get its own light-cone - a multiverse of things, yeah?
gribble: Error: "goxlag" is not a valid command.
mod6: don't add nsa's key to your wot, and you wont see that patch right?
mod6: so we either have ~one~ universe, or there is >1
mod6: so what would your implementation look like here? a patch to a current leaf of the trb patches that inflates say t/t.pl from 'false' on the end of the trb 'light-code' ?
mircea_popescu: mod6 each genesis carves it's own "universe", of possible patches. asciilifeform prefers to call this universe "light cone". it could perhaps be argued that the applicable patches as shaped by your trusted keys is more properly your light cone, though might as well call it "trust cone" and be done with it
mod6: this would sit adjacent to the 'bitcoin' directory? (just trying to get a visual in my head here)
mod6: don't worry about that. paint me a picture on how you might go about the task - how and where does t.pl go? or v.pl ?
mod6: that's all i was trying to say :]
a111: Logged on 2016-01-19 21:55 ascii_butugychag: pete_dushenski: try to understand the perspective of inventor. for x,xxx years churchmen prattled on about sex and reproduciton 'cannot cut apart'. and now they can go get stuffed.
trinque: as if there are zero instincts towards spreading seed in the male side of the act of sex
trinque has had a few beers, so let me be specific
trinque: I have always been aware of this aspect of sex when taking part in it
mod6: so maybe, everyone's call, including yours for a 'v-genesis' vpatch had me thrown that it should be a 'genesis' and not a simple vpatch to what currently already exists out there.
mircea_popescu: there's a difference between "can not be cut apart" and "sometimes you get a hankering for bareback ; so you make sure the bitch's on the pill"
mircea_popescu: the problems only begin when trinque goes on a jwz rampage "i only wanted the offspring to sprout, not rob the store".
mircea_popescu: then people get conned into pretending "education" is an engineering field.
mod6: in way that asciilifeform lays it out, in the sense that this vpatch would start from 'false' and end on 'SOME_HASH' and create a file(s)|directory(ies) that did not previously exist, then yes a 'genesis' but only on concept - not in name. as we shouldn't not confuse the two imho.
mircea_popescu: mod6 : if you're building trb, you start from a trb genesis. if you're building V (via V), you start from a V genesis. and so on.
mod6: i think that it makes it confusing if we call it 'v-genesis'
mod6: instead of mod6_v.vpatch or something
mircea_popescu: the obvious usage is due to it being <project-name>-genesis. but yeah.
mircea_popescu: no graph of mine is ever going into this state of sin.
mircea_popescu: would it be better if instead of genesis we called it terminator ?
trinque: mircea_popescu │ the problems only begin when trinque goes on a jwz rampage "i only wanted the offspring to sprout, not rob the store". << I agree 100% that offspring are in any sane scenario mine to end
trinque: this does not contradict the fact that the more the world looks like me, the happier I am
mircea_popescu: it still has to either a) chain off an existing element or b) not be part of the story.
mircea_popescu: then no good. and whatever patches reference it should burn.
mircea_popescu: same reason someone who wants to participate here starts by reading the log, not by "wholly formed" delusional nonsense.
mircea_popescu: possibly because trying to subvert the whole thing by having "multiply loadable libraries" or whatever. in any case : you can trivially just make it depend on genesis and be done wit hthe whole story.
mircea_popescu: there may not exist any sort of pedigree, even as a notion, other than from one of our genesis.
mircea_popescu: the notion that some sort of "pedigree" from outside v is worth two shits is the only fart here.
phf: yeah, i found that point of tinyscheme somewhat confusing. i understand asciilifeform's intent of "this is how i found tarball", but it seems to contradict wot aspects of v
mircea_popescu: the pedigree, if it exists, comes from "i asciilifeform read this and i goes off genesis". nowhere else.
mircea_popescu: no such separation is desired. moreover, breaking the tree is outright catastrophic.
phf: well, yes, that's the intent, but i'm saying that i'm not sure there's value in "i found this" when it breaks "i make this part of whole"
mircea_popescu: but understand this clearly alf : the difference between "i produced this" and "i stole this from washington" is nil. if you stole it or wrote it - YOU PRODUCED IT.
phf: well, it attempts to solve same problem that the vectors were solving, i.e. introducing code that you're not ready to reasonably support
mircea_popescu: there may not be any such "we see". if both you and him introduce "item x", the only approach is to read both.
mircea_popescu: why'd someone make a new 0 diff patch instead of signing yours ?
mircea_popescu: mno. ffz, a project you are working on now, has its own genesis. IT WILL BE REBASED in any possible tree where it appears.
mircea_popescu: v exists SPECIFICALLY so you can't "save labour" in this manner.
mircea_popescu: you want to use a piece of code in your project, YOU REBASE IT.
mircea_popescu: read the whole thing, rebase the whole thing. copy it by hand in longhand 50 times.
mircea_popescu: stick to one project at a time, you'll be happy enough that way.
mircea_popescu: for the record - each piece of code should be read more often than it is used.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not in the slightest. you ever read a novel TWICE only to discover that hey, i hadsn't gotten it the first time ?
mircea_popescu: so then stop hanging on to outdated capitalist dogma that perpetuates the inequality in our society.
mircea_popescu: if there's ever going to be an end to rotten meat, is through disallowing the processes that create it in the first place.
mircea_popescu: there's not going to be any of this "o mom look at me i r coder too i included shit from github".
mircea_popescu: whether anyone for this reason or for any other starts behaving intelligently is outside of the scope. nevertheless, the dumb behaviour being stomped out is, by my stick, enough.
trinque: the include moves concepts from one place to another without enumerating them. it's in that sense a lie by omission
trinque is chronically guilty of massive single files of code
trinque: the has does not fucking enumerate what it hashed or you could reverse it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not so. for instance - fitness of import to codebase is not seriously considered.
trinque: it identifies which is totally different
mircea_popescu: even the notion of "library" is fucktarded. you take the code and apply it to your needs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform understand : you make zlib. project X uses zlib v 95. project Y uses zlib 94. you move to zlib 99
mircea_popescu: NONE OF THEM LOSES ANYTHING. theyt have your shit rebased properly.
mircea_popescu: if they want to add your patches they do. if not - not, and fuck you.
mircea_popescu: otherwise you reproduce the shit that ruined linux world.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform two women which are cuntwise identical ARE STILL DIFFERENT. genetics, their future, etc.
trinque: I didn't read it; I just copied and pasted that hash from shithub
trinque: doesn't this run directly against your fits-in-head thing?
trinque: because you are considering openssl as the word openssl or whatever function you've imported and it's signature
trinque: and not how it actually works
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wouldja think for a minute. if he trusts your key, to get stuff included up to X, he trusts your key, so ends up with stuff included past X also.
phf: tinyscheme is very much openssl
mircea_popescu: how does he stop your stupid shit at X ? only rebasing does this.
mircea_popescu: why not ? v sees patches off the same thing signed by you, imports them.
mircea_popescu: depends on mode, in one mode it builds all the chains it can./
mircea_popescu: i suspect this matter requires more private meditation, because there seems to be relatively little common ground.
phf: asciilifeform: i understand that but you're missing what i'm saying. you yourself said that you're not particularly trusting tinyscheme. it has overflow bugs, it has all kinds of issues, and keeping its apartness insulates ~you~ from a certain amount of responsibility. it's no longer serving a purpose as part of a bigger trb patch, now it's this third party "pedigree" thing, that we can sort of rely on, but nobody's responsible for etc.
mod6: i think both are reasonable. this should be tabled for now for thought-experiment and real-experiment time.
trinque: question wasn't (I thought) how V works, it's whether #include is a useful tool or a festering fucking sore
trinque: your program *is* one scroll
trinque: whether you've structured it as such or not
mircea_popescu: you can't fucking have "nice things". deal with it!!11
mircea_popescu: i personally never got the idea it's part of trb or anything. seemed to me more like a "alf's other project", sort of like the ffz thing.
trinque: it is a fucking lie; the category within which you're enumerating symbols is not delimited by file
trinque: the category is as big as it is, and no smaller
trinque: and inventing "file" and #include does not change that
mircea_popescu: you write your lib with the cannonical solution ; everyone else imports it that wants it.
mircea_popescu: exactly how "search" is "a problem solved for all time", but when grep got implemented they... cheated it.
mircea_popescu: imports, not moronically includes, but re-writes the code.
trinque: and so then your program will never fit in your head
trinque: it will until you hit a boundary and say "openssl" or "tinyscheme"
trinque: and this is fiat-world division of labor where at some point it is "other guy's problem"
mircea_popescu: you know saying "tinyscheme 4564387658734" is not for this reason better than "tinyscheme"
phf: well, tinyscheme-0f2b8cc
trinque: and thus entirely not "fits in head"
trinque: tinyscheme at point in time, no shit
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the peculiar string you use does not work the magic better.
mircea_popescu: can be as long and lettery as you want. still a hail mary string of no actual practical benefit.
phf: tinyscheme then becomes a space of unknowing
phf: heh, this is parallel to the unicode conversation actually..
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform architecture long encountered, and thenresolved, this matter. there are "problems solved for all time", such as, "the roman arch". nevertheless, no architect to date has yet written "roman arch" on a piece of paper.
mircea_popescu: instead, he made one. by hand. to spec as his project needed.
mircea_popescu: the odds of two projects wanting the same exact verbatim pile of lib-code are ~as good as for a hash collision.
☟︎ trinque: the thing on trial here is I just wanted to aes-128 or whatever; I did not want to openssl
mircea_popescu: but yes, laterally, this also takes out with red irons any concept of "copyright" in software
mircea_popescu: not altogether a bad side effect, but it is not intentional, merely derivative from sanity.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i been sayuing this for an hour now. YOU DONT FUCKING IMPORT THE WHOLE LIB VERBATIM. you take what you need, and adapt it to your project.
trinque: my actual possible code paths in say trb should be reflected in the code
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 04:29 mircea_popescu: the odds of two projects wanting the same exact verbatim pile of lib-code are ~as good as for a hash collision.
trinque: I'm reminded of the call-graph thread
mircea_popescu: no, best is to trust and verify. pretend you did take it off hitler.
trinque: point being that problem would be trivial if we weren't introducing human-side optimizations like #include and general libraries of 100s of functions out of which you pick a couple
phf: i prefer to just loosen the requirements a bit. a failure in a vpatch doesn't need to result in public disgrace, shaming or execution. that might be one of reasons why work came to utter stand still, nobody wants to "sign off" on this or that like it's going to end in the style of diana_coman's story
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why would you care to answer that q btw ?
trinque: the problem is poorly formed; I would eventually sign off on a function that did RSA
trinque: I will never sign off on a crypto util lib that has umpteen million functions
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform reading code we use is not wasting anything.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, this may be the most idiotic cockroach implanted by usg in programmer heads, "save time by not reading"
mircea_popescu: iirc when i wanted to sanitize indents you quashed it mostly on the grounds of exactly this, "i want my diff to still work". well now ?
phf: reading thing you wrote as applied to a new problem might potentially reveal issues. "oh this code uses strcpy with null pointer, strcpy is included from `my` code, so i'm going to make a bunch of assumptions that break down in this case"
mircea_popescu: shut up, ru army style made men out of a collection of shitheads.
mircea_popescu: all the "effort saving" kitchen appliances never made a man yet.
trinque: when I read a definition of a lisp system which pulls 30 separate files into one namespace, I am reading a lie
trinque: the system is 15k lines long, not 200 or w/e
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you're trying to save copulation time, seriously now.
mircea_popescu: it's not been wasted, the time you used reading, it's not been wasted.
trinque: what requires you to read the whole scroll?
trinque: so you're looking at it at offset whatever, what does this change?
mircea_popescu: or for that matter, anything you don't feel like reading.
phf: fwiw, we don't have examples in code base of 1000 re-readings but we already have an example of openssl, which is where this conversation started
mircea_popescu: anyway, what started this conversation is that the ratcheting ratcher burnssss.
trinque: how am I to evaluate the question of whether I care about that?
mircea_popescu: it's a start. it can not be a standard, however. merely a start.
trinque: "I want incomprehensible wad of nonsense from PRECISE date over incomprehensible wad of nonsense from arbitrary date"
trinque: sure, and see mircea_popescu from 4 lines ago
trinque: but I have nfi what the fucking thing is, to this day
trinque: because of the very thing we're discussing.
trinque: I would understand more of what bitcoin *is* from an implementation with no dependencies than from what we have
trinque: that what we have is all we have is a tragedy and nothing other
mod6: Gentlemen, I must bid you Good Evening. I'll pick this back up with you on the 'morrow. :]
trinque: for all I know boost does this very particular thing with memory allocation that obviates some race condition the whole concept has which prevented it from collapsing immediately
trinque: and we'll never know because as formed I cannot read bitcoin
trinque: and now we're back to your book
phf: genesis of bitcoin including entire lfs, gcc, etc.
trinque: every pit of ignorance on earth sits behind some tidy word beyond which "it's someone else's problem"
☟︎ phf: i think that a lot of these conversations come to a standstill because they deal with infinities, rather the shaping into a reasonable concrete. it seems proper that slapping new code onto bitcoin should come in a form of wot signed balls of mud, that don't particularly care about preserving all information and pedigrees and such. "i wrote this new math function and it uses this mp code that i lifted elsewhere but shaped enough that only relevant bits remain and for all practical purposes all you see in this patch is all that matters"
trinque: phf: the problem there is knowing how much compromise leads to death
trinque: one can always say "not as much as I've commited thus far"
trinque: and then maybe you're BingoBoingo's druggie, or you're in a pool of blood and piss
trinque: I'd expect it avoids the trap
trinque: at least in that case you know what you've done!
phf: i'm not sure i understand where compromise is. i'm comfortable working with big ball of mud. i see a vpatch as a transition of state of mud to a new state of mud and vpatch is an exhaustive description of what that state transition means. it's signed by asciilifeform which is all the pedigree i need. vpatch itself can come with out of band comment "might be buggy" or "ready for war deployment". there are known problems with that approach that manifest at scale (like for example multiple slightly conflicting version of "utilities" or "math functions" that get copied back and forth, finding bug in one means that the other might remain unpatched, etc.)
phf: but i haven't seen those problems yet in the bitcoin codebase, the problem that i did see is a certain deliberate apartness of tinyscheme related code, that subtly violate my assumptions in a nagging way that i described above.
☟︎ trinque: that "apartness" you smell on tinyscheme is throughout the thing, not just there
trinque: I have been arguing that the #include concept (styled (require ...) or whatever you like) gives a person a place past which he may "not have to care"
phf: sure, and the next step might be to trim down openssl as much as possible (which might be not much at all given limited resources) and rebase it into genesis
trinque: except that he does have to care; this concept is broken
trinque: there's a core philosophical question of "what is a program" which extends from the observation
trinque: using openssl as a symbol, to the degree that your program relies on one, you cannot be said to have written any particular program at all
☟︎ trinque: and your signature upon the mud is meaningless
phf: a genesis that no one can read through and make sense of it is meaningless
phf: well, as far as i understand it was us three arguing with asciilifeform from different angles
trinque: two categories come to mind; lets say in the context of planning a military operation
trinque: on one side you have the set of all possible tactics to employ in a given domain
trinque: this is a 'crypto util library'
trinque: on the other you have specific orders given to a unit
trinque: funny thing here, isn't lisp supposed to be able to manipulate its own damned code
phf: well, mp already pointed at this with his roman arch example
☟︎ trinque: why then does it hvae the same import system as C++ roughly
trinque: why isn't my program only the set of code it actually uses
trinque: even though yeah, it came from the set of all known Xs and Ys
phf: which is traditionally described in computing with same architecture terms, i.e. patterns
trinque: I should name a specific symbol import and have the code for that import and all deps slurped into the very spot I named it
phf: asdf is a later graft on lisp, already long after it went microcomputer
phf: the ball of mud in case of lisp is "the entire state of your lisp machine image"
phf: in fact lisp is pretty unfriendly to the whole idea of "fire and forget" code reuse
phf: hense various monsters like "named readtables" and various attempts to minimize package name clashing
trinque tries to imagine what a hammer would look like if it were composed of orthogonal categories of "lets make everything to do with hardness" and "everything to do with smashing"
☟︎ trinque: the physical world does not have this confounding problem
trinque: you do not link something which contains all possible uses of cement when you pour a foundation
trinque: with the risk that something about bridge failure may end up causing your building to collapse
trinque: fascinating; I have a condensation of the whole conversation now
trinque: it's whether software is a matter of engineering or of thought.
trinque: asciilifeform thinking of it from the perspective of "mind amplifier" says in order to represent as much thought as possible, gonna need hyperlinking
trinque: someone thinking of a specific problem rather than *the whole problem* sees it from the perspective of maximizing clarity of his own particular domain
trinque: thus fuck your hyperlinks; give me the whole thing in one buffer
deedbot: shinohai may not $up fromphuctor
deedbot: fromphuctor voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-14#1482493 << word. really, "labour division" is harmful in the same manner jwzism is harmful, if practiced in the manner jwzism is practiced. the criteria for cleavage MUST BE "can these things be cleaved" ; it CAN NOT BE "would i like these things apart". it is and has to remain about the things, not about the people. and in this sense "engineering serves mankind" in the same way "the sun is u
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 04:55 trinque: every pit of ignorance on earth sits behind some tidy word beyond which "it's someone else's problem"
mircea_popescu: hence the whole "because i can". it's a misnomer : "because it can be done" is proper, the i has no business in there. it'd like to, but that's neither here nor there.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 05:03 phf: act from cause?
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 05:18 phf: but i haven't seen those problems yet in the bitcoin codebase, the problem that i did see is a certain deliberate apartness of tinyscheme related code, that subtly violate my assumptions in a nagging way that i described above.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-14#1482510 << whether you can be said to have "written" it, in the manner of genre fiction, is even a separate matter from "having written it" in the manner of code, which means you control it, which is a superset of you understand it completely, which has really little to do with "here's a string i dreamed up now publish it and clal it a book".
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 05:22 trinque: using openssl as a symbol, to the degree that your program relies on one, you cannot be said to have written any particular program at all
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 05:31 phf: well, mp already pointed at this with his roman arch example
mircea_popescu: there obviously exists a continuum between abstraction and implementation. the way this continuum is handled in ~all (and absolutely all) successful human endeavours is, that a concept is clarified AS A CONCEPT ; and then that concept is applied to situations as an application. like the war, roman arch, et all.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, the way this continuum is handled in all failed human endeavours (computing among them, with such prideful items as "social science" and so on) is for "all possible uses" of a concept to be "dreamed up" and "packaged" in a "conceptual library" which is then to be used verbatim.
mircea_popescu: this idiocy is not only how computing "works" today, but it is also how a good "marxist leninist maoist" party cadre is expected to treat the inept shit they use : he's to import marx.library exactly like you're "expected" to import iosys.blabla
mircea_popescu: the deep stupidity involved should be directly apparent, but in any case - the system as proposed violates the proper flow of entropy, and as such MAY NOT HAVE ANY MERITS.
mircea_popescu: but os as fundamentally a library is like woman as fundamentally a syphilis repository.
mircea_popescu: my shamelessly tall statement here being that, "library is the bad thing", outright.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i wouldn't use it in my creations without reading it. i may run it on a box on the basis of wot though.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the fundamental problem with the "library" thing is that you are asked to guess what i might wish to do in the future. this is wrong, and unfixable.
mircea_popescu: "open source" alleviates this like an emergency valve does ; but why the fuck have design processes which create items which rely on emergency valve already. fix the leaks.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your idea of static library is practical, but incomplete.
mircea_popescu: true static library is really the complete story : ascii's ffz + the various re-implementations of ffz in projects x y and z.
mircea_popescu: how do you put in "all the parts that are needed by ALL future users" but "no parts not needed by ANY future user" ?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: i do not wish my os to contain as much as a fucking variable declared i don't use. not one.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suspect this may be a case where your conscientious intelligence is moreover harmful in the very limited and passagery sense that it took you far enough down a blind alley to make digging out the proper route seem expensive and painful.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 13:12 mircea_popescu: how do you put in "all the parts that are needed by ALL future users" but "no parts not needed by ANY future user" ?
mircea_popescu: i posit that no matter how good a job you do of it, and i believe you capable of an exceptionally good job, will never be perfect, because it can't be for fundamental reasons.
mircea_popescu: there's some problems with the concept of "specification" also that i don't have clear in my mind
☟︎ mircea_popescu: speaking of which, i must say this has been by far the most serious, deep and far reaching argument tmsr yet produced, i sit and marvel at the wonder, all my resources tapped taut and for the first time in many years insufficient to peer through the gloom.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let's go into a lengthy sidepoint. can you define "specification" for my benefit ? strangely enough the prb tards think some things about what a specification is that diverge.
mircea_popescu: no generally. the definitive, absolute and no sharp edges or loose parts version, that can be engraved into the ether and forever work without change.
mircea_popescu: so a spec is purely descriptive, and in no sense prescriptive ?
mircea_popescu: "don't steal" can not be a spec, only "if you steal you go to jail" ?
mircea_popescu: and spec may not discuss internal state, only inputs and outputs ?
mircea_popescu: then variant and unequivalent implementations of the same spec may exist ?
mircea_popescu: so you've just said "the bitcoin newtork is the bitcoin specification" here.
mircea_popescu: but the network already and very clearly specifies inputs nad outputs. this meets your definition.
mircea_popescu: experimential specification, "send a txn see if it makes it through".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, for any possible output, it'll get either accepted or rejected. doesn't get clearer than this.
mircea_popescu: o god almighty he was playing it straight. listen asciilifeform you'll say the exact same thing about your bovaric contraption down the road. "the program is fine the world failed it". need i quote brecht to you ?
mircea_popescu: but hey, you test it. "as best you can". then nobody believes the results
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> unambiguous description of how inputs and outputs relate. << is what i have.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 13:18 mircea_popescu: there's some problems with the concept of "specification" also that i don't have clear in my mind
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform anyway, your definition of a spec is amply vulnerable. take the time issue : what, ddr can't be specified ? fingering a girl neither ? what happens if the spec asks for a 10 followed by a 11, and ytou get the 10 and silence ? now you got a whole halting problem on your hands.
mircea_popescu: honestly it doesn't seem anyone has a better idea of what a spec is than "correct metaphora", which is ridiculous, ironic, scandalous and not much to go on simultaneously.
mircea_popescu: "specification is what happens to art products that are no longer interesting. it is the equivalent of commoditization for resources, familiarity in relationships and failure in civilisation."
mircea_popescu: and being tired of old wifey is also a win "any way you cut it", except no way you care to.
mircea_popescu: which incidentally is how specificatgion was originally born. "replaceable parts", ww2 tech.
mircea_popescu: anyway, for completeness : the correct, mp-would-find-satisfying, tmsr etc solution to the lathe problem is : make a lathe that cuts lathe parts. shoot anyone found with threaded items not made by your lathe for a few years.
mircea_popescu: kinda why isis will necessarily conquer and exterminate north america.
a111: Logged on 2014-02-02 17:21 asciilifeform: 'Postel's Law,' that historic mistake.
mircea_popescu: for noobs as you say : calculate the fluid ounces of water to be found in a lake of parallelipiped profile a quarter mile deep, two hundred yards long and six hundred feet wide.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you should see the rail here btw. often they have 3-5 rails installed.
mircea_popescu: looks like inner for some sort of light rail, 2nd looked normal, third looked ~russian
mircea_popescu: sadly i was otherwise involved at the time and didn't think to shoot it up.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd like to interrupt this joyful occasion of copulation of you two by noting that ssh-rsa keys of all of ipv4 are now ready for phuctoring and further analysis; they are in the format of e,N,ipaddress. there's 10.6M of them, out of 20.8M something-listening-on-port-22 hosts. rejoice!
Framedragger: this is what i've been able to extract (timeout for ssh server to provide ssh keys: 7.0 seconds), but now that i better understand the nuances of this particular undertaking, re-scanning / re-extraction would be much easier. in particular, doable in 36 hours for under 2 euros of cost (and doable in shorter amount of time for more euros and more concentrated work). which means that costs are absolutely negligible, unless you want to keep
Framedragger: (i used one vps at a time (switched due to abuse complaints and so that i'd be sure there's no filtering / results are not biased) for the "which IPs out of all IPv4 are alive behind :22" scan, and i then used 13 cheap VPSes for the actual ssh key extraction out of the 20.8M alive candidates. if curious re cost: will get the bill for the 13 VPSes later, but it was basically 11 hours of scanning, 2.99eur / mo. per VPS, hourly billing, so
Framedragger: go figure the intricacies and idiosyncrasies of the human mind
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform check it out, 5x the phuctor installed basis :D
Framedragger: oh uh, it's a shitty python web server there, i should provide something better huh
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah but i dunno how good it is with serving parallel requests; think it will be fine for this though, yeah
mircea_popescu: aww i was hoping for a thorougher trashing of the imbecile redditard and his "hey guise let me tell you what alt universe my unchallenged 15 yo mind dreamed up"
mircea_popescu: "I once worked with a crew who all huffed the Airwick room freshener and then sat back against the pallet stack and giggled and said “Wow man” for an hour. " << check out the theorematicians.
Framedragger: (ahahaha re bassett disaster.. yeah i would view 'cache' as an inevitable result of *constraints* (finite c).. i think it was a confusion of terms (spec / things that emerge from constraints), and i suppose the point of confusion itself is possibly an interesting object to discuss, etc)
mircea_popescu: how you distinguish between "spec" and "things that emerge from constraints" ?
Framedragger: i don't know, but either (1) do not distinguish, or (2) use asciilifeform criterion, which i don't think to be circular, i.e. it's probably sound?
mircea_popescu: it runs into a problem of "what it means to be provided by universe". for instance - is failure of socialism provided by universe ? is the fact you can't walk through fire conventional or universal ?
mircea_popescu: there's no way yet invented to mortise and tenon DIFFERENT beams together. so the result in practice is that you always interpret one - in this case "universe" becomes accessible through mediation, you describe it to yourself.
mircea_popescu: so now you're doing two things of the same kind - a convention and another convention.
mircea_popescu: it is perhaps notable that universe does not provide spec of itself, and so "we're stuck doing basic science on it".
mircea_popescu: but anyway, to expand this horror, what'd be your definition of "fully tested" asciilifeform ?
mircea_popescu: heck, you laugh at my pi. fine, now laugh at millikan's electron.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: 10000 mile distant response: just because you accept (at least parts of) (berkeleyan?) skepticism doesn't necessarily mean that *all* relevant conceptual boundaries are useless and prone to slippery slope dissolution
mircea_popescu: Framedragger that;s not necessarily the problem. the problem seems moreover that we have very weak understanding of items that nevertheless we treat as key bricks in the planned construction. this "everyone knows" stuff is very dangerous.
Framedragger: (berkeleyan in the sense of (1) take locke's skeptical concerns, and (2) discard locke's "solution" involving lockean substance and substratum and other essentialist stuff)
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah k, this particiular concern should be acknowledged
mircea_popescu: or, to put the same in positive terms, "we've driven the tools to where they exposed grave misunderstanding in the conceptual basis for their usage, now we gotta attend to that side of the ratchet."
mircea_popescu:
http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=4026 << incidentally, the "we got a hooker in X" / 5 dudes in main room hanging out and woman locked in bathroom for later use is very much emblematic male society. from the greek's gynecaeum to the mongol's "the smoked deer up that pole and the captured hos up that pole".
mircea_popescu: no doubt the stuff feminist nightmares aree made of. sort of ready equivalent to "human herd of the future consisting of mostly females"
Framedragger: asciilifeform: (the bz2 expands to 6.0 GiB btw, and it's 13 files inside (in said CSV format), and there's no sorting order and the files can be safely concatenated etc.)
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell shinohai The PwC thing is a bit too much noisy to run
shinohai: kk, in retrospect i feel that BingoBoingo
mircea_popescu: ^ if any of the lafond afficionados wanna compare with the original an' lemme know...
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I dunno if the original was intended to be fiction, but this incremental rewriting is how the oral history passes
mircea_popescu: arguably a process much more important than its results.
BingoBoingo: This is a serious bug in the Internet. I fixes oral history as printed text too soon.
BingoBoingo: "A furfag lied and pretended one of their friends was killed during the shooting, which caused a moderate amount of drama in the furry scene; go raid and troll his Fur Affinity account and stir up some drama for the lulz! "
BingoBoingo: Victimhood jostling: "if you’re straight i really appreciate you uh, making posts about this and trying to raise awareness and give your 2 cents but please….. don’t? this isn’t about you or what you think and it’s making me really uncomfortable lmao please let us raise our voices, please share our posts instead of making your own. today isn’t a day for you to be reaching for ally points"
mircea_popescu: inspired by their "report to fbi" thing i just registered #offended
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo what is that weak shit ? "protected class" trying to leech ?
BingoBoingo: Advanced neurological decay brough on by the Beetus
mircea_popescu: fuck you, a bunch of X-type derps getting killed is entirely not about x-derps.
mircea_popescu: "While authorities begin the painstaking work into why gunman Omar Mateen massacred at least 50 people at a popular gay nightclub in Florida, they'll have a number of clues for understanding the mindset of the mass murderer" << guy didn't care for your stupid cult ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, with Framedragger 's bundle being dumped in phuctor, their "market" just evaporared.
mircea_popescu: which is the one thing the republic can do real well - burn down the farms of the empire. thoroughly.
mircea_popescu: come to think about it - this is historically accurate, also.
mircea_popescu: there's a difference between buying products of engineering and buying products of the theatrical arts. sure, they'll drink, let 'em.
Framedragger: "And we shall have our pound of flesh, of thy fair flesh, from closest to thy heart." << hah i like casual quotes of mr william
BingoBoingo: Need more grinding to feed the phuctor sausage!
Framedragger: asciilifeform: incidentally how's the backlog of phuctor? i expect it's rather busy as it is..
Framedragger: unrelated, allele set usage in eulora? damn, looks like i *may* have to give that gay game a try
Framedragger: always wanted to experiment more with artificial life a la karl sims virtual creatures but in larger mmorpg world
Framedragger: lol, contactless cards. it's such a stupidly bad idea. reminds me of some hack0rz stealing us passport info because us passports used to have (or maybe still have dunno) *active* rfid chips. yes, active
a111: Logged on 2016-06-14 05:37 trinque tries to imagine what a hammer would look like if it were composed of orthogonal categories of "lets make everything to do with hardness" and "everything to do with smashing"
mircea_popescu: "a kilogram of hammer is composed by taking half a kilogram of hardness and half a kilogram of smashing"
BingoBoingo: I need to accomplish X. Tool Y weights Z and offers A mass of utility B and C mass of utility D.
BingoBoingo: Other tools have different maths. For grass cutting deck size is king because more grass is cut for every unit of forward movement. For mowing without getting into the lowest bidder market of everyone with mowers you instead mow with
https://archive.is/8sZ7i and instead bid on mowing more interesting things.
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BingoBoingo: Gotta do something after losing the libertarian party nomination to the Johnson-Weld ticket
mircea_popescu: this is notably a dude that was wanted on a list of shit longer than my arm.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-01 17:27 mircea_popescu: "She does stink and she should quit. But I don't want it to be because of me. It should be the traditional route; years of rejections and failures till she's spit out the bottom of the porn industry."
mircea_popescu: "Cu o cariera de peste 15 ani in industria filmelor porno, Titus Steel este, fara dar si poate, cel mai cunoscut actor roman din aceasta bransa"