log
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mircea_popescu: aand in today's olde trilema lulz, http://trilema.com/2011/exercitiu-practic-de-dileme-morale/
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/gay-bullshit-matador-laberinto-de-pasiones-ley-del-deseo/ << Trilema - Gay Bullshit : Matador, Laberinto de pasiones & Ley del deseo
mod6 re-reads
ben_vulpes: mk, makin some progress on the pizarro accounting/assettracking db
ben_vulpes: i'm going to do it in postgres; should be a lot easier to get php to do both the mysql for the pizarro mpwp and the postgres for deedbot than to port deedbot to mysql
ben_vulpes: logbot, i mean.
mircea_popescu: are you burning time on any random useless nothing you can think of, just as long as it's not http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-03#1808145 ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-03 18:15 ben_vulpes: not required but it is the next item on my conveyor after the april report
ben_vulpes: i don't think it useless nothing as it will snip significant time off report generation. the pressure from the board is to forge forward with the rockchips, but if there's change to be eked from the shared hosting i should capture that as well, so thanks for the prodding.
mircea_popescu: nuts.
asciilifeform: i must confess that i agree with mircea_popescu : the postgres db thing is neither here nor there, and in fact harmful, i would like to be able to run ben_vulpes's calculations as before , using his lisp proggies, without having to fuck with a db snapshot, wtf srsly
asciilifeform: it strikes me as archaetypical wankage
deedbot: http://ave1.org/2018/building-gnat-on-musl-now-with-partial-and-parallel-build-support/ << ave1 - Building GNAT on MUSL, now with partial and parallel build support
asciilifeform: oh hey
asciilifeform set up test of above, lessee if worx
asciilifeform: 1 prelim result : the parallelism dunwork
asciilifeform: strictly 1 cpu in use
asciilifeform: ave1 ^
asciilifeform: ( and yes i set the -jxxxx in the configs )
ave1: will be picked up from env, not in config.sh, the tarball script will make it's own config.sh in build/build-bootstrap (in general in build/build-<platform-name>)
asciilifeform: in env it's -j32 , and no effect from this either
asciilifeform: unless it wants a nonstandard var name ? ( what does it want? there are 0 docs )
ave1: hmm, I've got to go now, but will check in later
asciilifeform: aite
mircea_popescu: well, why not kick him while he's down. so, ben_vulpes , do you understand the meaning of "They know how to work those" in http://trilema.com/2013/attention-cunt/#selection-37.37-37.64 ?
mircea_popescu: you find yourself in the unique position of a start-up running out of runway that doesn't have AS MUCH AS A LANDING PAGE. suppose i wanted to send people over ; where the everloving fuck do i even send them ?
mircea_popescu: you've been "managing" the thing for months, haven't yet hired a single salesman. what are you managing over there, the transition into bureaucracy ?
mircea_popescu: do you have as much as an active account on a webmaster forum even ?
mod6: So. I created this database back in March to help track inventory, payments, customer accounts, etc. This all to help ben_vulpes save time when doing reporting. Which, as I understand is taking him a lot of time each month.
mod6: Now do I think he's wasting time? No. I'm sure he hasn't spent much time on it at all since I even created it, but he would have to say for himself.
asciilifeform: mod6: 'waste' may be wrong word. but quite hard to see why it is a blocker for the more urgent puzzler of 'where to get customers'
mod6: Now what is a waste of time, for me, is this lisp/sexp shit. For instance, lastnight it cost us 2 man hours. 1 for me, 1 for ben who had to take me through the entire rockchip lisp thing that he created.
mod6: And I guess, it is not up to me how Mr. Vulpes wants to track these things for Pizarro, however, if I'm asked to make decisions, I EXPECT that these things are clear, in plain language.
mod6: I've said this as recently as last week.
mod6: I don't think it is a 'blocker', but Mr. Vulpes will have to respond to that.
mod6: This is a simply, 'nice to have', in my personal opinion.
mod6: I'm no accountant, or anything, however, I find it insane to try to keep track of things in a lisp script. Do we really want to debug our accounting things every week/month?
asciilifeform: mod6: it was my understanding that all of the inventory work was already done.
mod6: We are discussing/thinking about how to recapitalize, get more rockchips, customers. So this is on going. I don't think anyone is wasting anytime by any streach of imagination.[
asciilifeform: ( we have not any new inventory items since my expedition )
mircea_popescu: you're a nice guy, mod6, and your point is without merit. nevertheless, the whole thing's a bike shed. who the hell even cares what the infrastructure is like for handling six numbers ?
mod6: I want all of the things in a place we can all refer to and say "oh there it is! now I can see how many x are in there" or whatever.
mod6: I don't care if it's a flat file either.
mod6: Just /SOMETHING/ that doesn't require debugging.
mod6: God forbid that ben_vulpes get's hit by a car on his bike tomorrow and then we have to pick this up.
mod6: How the fuck are we to know what is what.
mod6: How is this without merit?
mod6: All I'm saying is, a business should have a formal way to track things, this is all.
mod6: It is not a waste of time.
mod6: And I can agree, that it doesn't have to happen right now.
mircea_popescu: it can't just be a csv ?
mod6: Perhaps, whatever it is, it must yield something that mod6 can read.
mircea_popescu: yes ; but if the present trend continues you won't have all that much to read altogether.
mod6: I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise.
asciilifeform: it wouldn't even bother me if it were a js hack, along the lines of my http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-05#1809743 example☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-05 00:07 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes, mod6 , mircea_popescu , et al : http://www.loper-os.org/pub/piz_tab.html << corrections of central column or other init params, welcome
asciilifeform: but it does not need to take months to make, wtf
asciilifeform: i made the above ^ in <1hr
asciilifeform: and it has all of the pertinent functionality of a microshit spreadshit etc
mod6: I didn't say this was top priority either.
mircea_popescu: hey, you get a free db with the file system, i never was arsed to do any better on my reports. not that i'm proposing my laziness as the model for anyone else nor that i think the bikeshedding discussion needs to continue, now extented into a theoretical comparison of the merits and dismerits of postgress and implicit-fs-db.
mod6: asciilifeform: it wasn't months. I spent probably 1 weekend hacking on a psql ddl back in march, and ben_vulpes is finally getting around to looking at it now.
mod6: I dont even think that he really wants to use it specifically either, as, again, mod6 is not accountant.
mod6: I'm not impartial to database. I just want something that we can all see, and all the info about the business is contained within.
mod6: *partial
mod6: Customers, who's paid, who hasen't, what do we own, when are teh bills due.
mod6: This makes 100% sense to me.
mod6: Again, not the top priority either. Anyway, moving on...
mod6: Ok.
mod6: So, let's say that we thought that we would need to raise 50 BTC (just throwing it out there) - I'd like to talk about how that might work.
mod6: Let's say, for instance, 5 different people each came in with 10 BTC. Would that create 5 new board seats each?
mod6: not each, 5 total.
mod6: I believe this is probably a good way to get Pizarro into better financial shape, but it's hard for me to imagine how this works.
mod6: So let's discuss :]
asciilifeform: mod6: there is more than 1 difficulty with this scheme, but the most obvious one i know of, is that i dun think i actually know 5 people who ~have~ 10btc (much less wanting to play)
mod6: This is just an example.
mircea_popescu: mod6, generally, if you refinance the old board gets trashed.
mod6: Aha. Ok.
mircea_popescu: old interest ~might~ get one seat ; but usually does not.
mod6: This is good to know.
mod6: What happens to old bond holders?
mod6: Such as me? Does someone pay for my bonds?
mod6: Or equity or whatever it is.
mircea_popescu: it's not really practical to have no boards, generally ; but also not larger than maybe a half dozen+1. even that's large.
mod6: Yeah, I think 4 is plenty.
mircea_popescu: mod6, well, if it's a sale, like how you got it, then yes. if it's just refinancing, then you keep whatever %.
mod6: Ok, makes sense.
mircea_popescu: there's an indirection layer there, between owning equity and board seats.
mircea_popescu: equity entitles you to a say, but the necessities of physical world (whereby there's only so many seats for the thing to work ; and whereby those have to be seated on by physical people) make the relationship between board and equity somewhat electoral.
mircea_popescu: and of course you can also just issue bonds ; whether convertible or not, until conversion event they sit on the passive.
mod6: Alright.
mircea_popescu: but you will have hell on wheel in your hands trying to get more money as a palliative solution to "i don't feel like building sales today".
mod6: Alright, so what do you suggest here? I thought that you were saying, multiple times that we should refinance. This is what I've been thinking about most lately.
mircea_popescu: !#s refinance
a111: 19 results for "refinance", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=refinance
asciilifeform: also worth to keep in mind, that, e.g., asciilifeform is willing to jump through certain flaming rings for 50% stake, that he would not so eagerly jump through for 1%
mod6: I suspected this as well.
asciilifeform: esp given as the fact that the project has cost asciilifeform a good % of his btc and the bulk of his usd
mircea_popescu: i said it once, you know. aanyway : the original idea (get >=300 rockchips there, in a dozen+ Us) was trashed by practical considerations (as alf pointed out, he can't carry 12 us in one go) ; but it'd have required refinancing because you simply did not have enough money to pay for it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, oh, are you running out of cash, too ?
asciilifeform: eventually will begin to run out, if no one else shares the chore of producing it
mircea_popescu: did you ever manage to get a btc->fiatola conversion going ? or what, still mired in paperwork is it ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i gotta do a ro expedition.
mircea_popescu: tsk.
asciilifeform: supposedly 100% of paperwork, up.
asciilifeform wishes there were a spare asciilifeform , because asciilifeform is 150% loaded with chores
mircea_popescu: aite, let's get back to this.
mircea_popescu: mod6, you understand, refinancing is people putting money on a proposition. it depends immensely what the proposition is. P1 = "our book value is ~11 and consists 95% of exotic hardware nobody else can get where it is" is very different from P2 = "we ate through our seed A+++ would do some more dicking about with files we download. oh and there's also some hardware."
mircea_popescu: does this make sense to you ?
mircea_popescu: pretty much the ~whole~ of economic activity is the process of a) building b) truthful propositions that c) describe some sort of comparative advantage and d) lots of it, especially e) of a very easily defended kind.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's particular concern , is , in short form : right now we have the ~physical~ component of the item we wanted for yrs , a l1-operated locking-cage isp. but not ~economic~ component, because l1 does not presently add up to sufficient custom to power the thing 100% . so it needs heathen power. but this must be achieved without compromising on the 'l1 isp' .
asciilifeform: heathens on the board, for instance, imho would thoroughly trash the 'l1 isp' premise.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> does this make sense to you ? << Yes, Sir. Got it.
mircea_popescu: the problem as far as i discern it is, "not only there's no conversation going, but the mutism threatens to entrench itself as a 'way to be', and it's not sustainable". when's the last time pizarro talked to anyone ? gotta talk to people, somehow, somewhere. silence is a first approximation of death.
mircea_popescu: and this;d be a major problem ~even if~ l1 added up to 50%+1 of the entire world.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform reached out to several intelligent heathen folk of old acquaintance ; and got same response from each , i.e. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1808491☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-04 01:50 asciilifeform: here's a sample of convos b/w asciilifeform and heathens ( whom he knows irl, over yrs ) : 'why didja put it in UY, bw costs 4x moar than in usa and cia will still steal yer iron eventually' ; 'i have to do what!? to get server in the rack?!' etc
asciilifeform: but asciilifeform is no sales genius.
mircea_popescu: but you didn't do this in a useful way ; because there's, for instance, no way for your friends (such as, say, you from the future) to reference it! or for the op to see anything.
asciilifeform: entirely correct, i was not even able to persuade'em to join #p
asciilifeform: ( heathens virtually always insist on 'private' comm, and have to be beaten with a stick to even contemplate sane conversation )
mircea_popescu: consider for instance how the whole http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/04/17/rfc-euloras-communication-protocol-eucomms/#comment-1169 pile worked. we know things from there we don't know from what you're describing.
asciilifeform agrees 100%
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, ok, but take https://forums.digitalpoint.com/threads/how-to-get-more-traffic.2694475/ : oodlebunches of linda patels having a smart discuss!
mircea_popescu: they're even more retarded than tardstalk, if that were even possible.
asciilifeform: what's the smart discussion there? i'm not seeing it
mircea_popescu: https://www.digitalpoint.com/members/marry-john.787297/ << look at marry john. does zhe look familiar ?!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-12#1812724☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-12 07:57 mircea_popescu: reminds me of this chick on fetlife, "So you don't want to have a smart discuss, you're here for what ? What do you research here ? Because I'm agree with your description."
mircea_popescu: i was being sarcastic.
asciilifeform: lolk
asciilifeform: for a sec i was thinking 'hmm wat'
mircea_popescu: dorks don't even bother to crop the copyright notices off their "profile" pics.
asciilifeform: this is why asciilifeform has serious headache , re the heathen component -- currently i've nfi how to appeal to them in any way at all
asciilifeform: and the lack of discussion , is quite worrisome
mircea_popescu: i don't know of any method besides filter feeding. and do you know what's the primary ingredient for filter feeding ?
asciilifeform: fact of the matter is, for the price of pizarro rockchip, heathen can get 5x the cpu with 10x the bandwidth in heathendom. how to persuade him to instead buy this ?
mircea_popescu: whale takes up what, 50 tons of water PER MOUTHFUL ?
asciilifeform: whale is looking for plankton; if he were filter feeding for, e.g. , rabbits, in the sea -- might have problem
mod6: Well, I can agree, we need to get the word out.
mircea_popescu: whale's just looking for protein. how the protein subjectively sees itself as packaged, "krill", "rabbit"... frankly none of the whale's problem.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sorta why i doubt that the whale is the correct model. not all protein , from our pov, is created equally, a webtard with a few satoshi to his name, does us no good
mircea_popescu: that'd be "no protein"
mircea_popescu: seawater does whale no good either.
asciilifeform: right
asciilifeform: then yes
mircea_popescu: takes up 50 tons of water per mouthful, one mouthful per minute, each minute, all day fucking long, each day of the loving year.
asciilifeform: ( the other front line , is that we gotta get moar saleables, in particular rockchip system, asap )
mircea_popescu: results in just enough protein intake to maintain its mass.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, that's true.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: right, the whale eats the way we breathe
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, the problem of selling starts with the cheaper bits.
asciilifeform: ( recall, btw, the crackpot who wanted to disperse food into the air and breathe it , lol )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, well, actually, the whales eat the way successful business sells : like we breathe.
mod6: asciilifeform: 48 rockchips fit into 4U right?
asciilifeform: mod6: in theory: in 2u
mod6: oh. huh. ok.
mod6: 24032 (from ben's lisp thing) / 8500 = 2.82 BTC at todays prices for 24 Rockchips delivered is what we had figured out.
mod6: I think.
mod6: Just trying to see if we have enough money to get 48 RC's built and delivered down there.
mircea_popescu: wait, what ?!
mircea_popescu: i have nfi how this works, but pizarro seems to be getting ever less for ever more money.
mod6: I may have screwed this up: http://cascadianhacker.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/rockchip.lisp
ben_vulpes: no this is incorrect. i am fighting a fire elsewhere right now, will be back as soon as i can.
mod6: I'm just trying to figure out if Pizarro has enough cash to get 48 of these down there.
mod6: ah, maybe that as for 96. anyway, will wait for ben_vulpes
mod6: Still, having them is required, but we still gotta sell 'em.
mod6: I gotta get some shitty coffee. bbs.
ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-15#1813474, it uses MAKEOPTS, could you paste the contents of "build/build-bootstrap/config.sh" ? I will add a readme file to the set.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-15 13:53 asciilifeform: unless it wants a nonstandard var name ? ( what does it want? there are 0 docs )
asciilifeform: a111: fail btw, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Lo1TQ/?raw=true
ave1: same as last time, ADA_OBJECTS_PATH and ADA_INCLUDE_PATH need to be *not* set. I can add the resetting of these variables to the script, but unsetting a variable is not something I usually do in a script.
ben_vulpes: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-5-15#355861 << shant, then.☝︎
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-05-15 12:35 asciilifeform: it strikes me as archaetypical wankage
ben_vulpes: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-5-15#355891 << ouch, yes.☝︎
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-05-15 13:58 mircea_popescu: well, why not kick him while he's down. so, ben_vulpes , do you understand the meaning of "They know how to work those" in http://trilema.com/2013/attention-cunt/#selection-37.37-37.64 ?
ben_vulpes: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-5-15#356051 << ~2.75 BTC at ~current rates gets 4 chassis with 96 total rockchippen, includes 1 delivery run per chassis.☝︎
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-05-15 15:37 mod6: ah, maybe that as for 96. anyway, will wait for ben_vulpes
mod6: ah, thanks SIr.
asciilifeform: ave1: i unset ADA_OBJECTS_PATH and ADA_INCLUDE_PATH
asciilifeform: ave1: but i did remember it after 1 failed run. possibly gotta zap the existing build ?
ave1: should not be needed, the makefiles request the variables, not configure
asciilifeform: i'ma try it again, looks like OBJECTS was still set somehow
BingoBoingo: After substantially more waiting in line, the cedula is in hand
asciilifeform: congrats BingoBoingo !
jurov: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-10#1811883 << using https://api.github.com/users?since=1☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-10 14:39 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-10#1811871 << how didja enumerate the users ?
spyked can confirm that the ^ method worx.
spyked: jurov, do you by any chance remember how long it took for you to extract all the keys?
diana_coman: ave1, if I want to test your gnat-building script what steps should I follow so that I have at the end of it maximum info re what works/doesn't and in what context exactly?
asciilifeform: diana_coman: fwiw mine's still going...
diana_coman: asciilifeform, well, I started it too and I'll leave it on, will see tomorrow morning I guess
mircea_popescu: !!up alex__c
deedbot: alex__c voiced for 30 minutes.
mod6: Well, I did talk to a kid at lunch - told him we got cheap hosting.
mod6: Well, not a kid, but young guy. So who knows, maybe we'll make him a customer on the shared-environment.
mod6: We could use some advertising.
mod6: If we can get a landing page up -- then ya, can do some advertising.
mircea_popescu: mod6, one way of looking at it is, "pizarro finds l1's in exile". you know ? "<h1>Pizarro</h1><h3>Welcome Home.</h3>"
mod6: 'tis a nice touch, mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: and yes, specific items, right ? suppose someone searches for "arm hosting". well ?
mircea_popescu: suppose there's a facebook group. suppose whatever the fuck, i dunno, i do other things.
mod6: Yah, and possibly fg. I know there is a sentiment that orcs are not interested in fg -- however, there are people I've talked to who are pretty interested in that. Don't have coins to buy one, however, still, interest is there.
mircea_popescu: "orcs" is a pet name for about five billion people.
mod6: I mean, "wotless guys".
mircea_popescu: there's ~some~ diversity even among orcs.
mod6: I don't have many "friends" irl or anything, but once we have a landing page, will do what I can on my meat-side.
mircea_popescu: in utterly other lulz, i just archived a facebook page. anyone care to guess the aggregate byte size ?
mod6: 27,054 bytes
mircea_popescu: 27`001`189.
mod6: HEH
mod6: jeebus
mircea_popescu: i shit you not. here's the page : https://archive.is/OJrrE ; here's the story : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/uGngm/?raw=true
mod6: if we were all still on dialup, no one could use facebook...
mod6: "use"
mircea_popescu: the externalized costs, you know ? suddenly puts into a whole new perspective the "net neutrality" thing. srsly, i must buy more switches cuz your "pages" are larger than my porn collection ?!
mod6: mod6.net is ~3000 bytes.
mod6: (homepage)
mircea_popescu: mod6, i don't even have a problem with the mb, per se, i mean holy hell there's trilema pages consisting of tables or novels or w/e the fuck. but that mb is <1% markup for the love of christ, not 99%.
mod6: yeah. 99% crap. at least trilema, when I get 27mb, i get 99% stuff I actually want to read/view.
mod6: Your thing has meaninful content.
asciilifeform: in unrelated noose, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-06#1810457 is rolled out to production. see stats pg and e.g. http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/factor/6447 ( currently there is only 1 'special collection' of factors -- debian victims; but soon will have many more, from e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-06#1810470 )☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-06 15:57 asciilifeform: it is in the conveyor, along with 'where from?' stat in 'factor/123' page (e.g. 'debian collection', 'cisco', etc)
a111: Logged on 2018-05-06 16:43 asciilifeform: ^ d00d with large collection of debian-style 'famous p's and q's', even once showed up here and asked to get phuctor's, and he did, but somehow his collection includes ~whole keys~ rather than factors. soon i'ma feed in ~his~ collection.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/05/us-alleges-some-guy-leaked-cia-tools-but-doesnt-allege-strong-enough-to-bring-charges/ << Qntra - US Alleges Some Guy Leaked CIA Tools But Doesn't Allege Strong Enough To Bring Charges
asciilifeform: '...when he left the CIA in 2016, suspicion fell upon him as “the only one to have recently departed [the CIA engineering group] on poor terms' << lol!!
asciilifeform: and , gold, '...claims that he initially provided assistance to the FBI’s investigation. Following the search of his apartment in March 2017, prosecutors waited six months to bring the child pornography charges'
asciilifeform: apparently usg simply luvvvvvs old, worn out stoolies, gives'em... pensions
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, not bad.
mircea_popescu: anyway, re other lulz, i can't imagine anyone can possibly regard "child pornography charges" / "sexual assault charges" etc brought by the criminal org as anything than shameful fabrications.
asciilifeform: looks like they're bringing'em against otherwise-marked-for-discard tor/proxy/etc operators nao
asciilifeform: ( per the letter of the law, iirc they're all 100% guilty , there is not an official 'common carrier' exemption for'em or anyone without Note From Hitler )
mircea_popescu: talking of tor feels a little like talking of meni rosenfeld's bitcoin scam. anyone recall that "o ya, bcrypt, best tool on the market" lulzfest ?
asciilifeform: seems to be a long-lived chumpatron, like ethertardium
asciilifeform: 'gift keeps on giving'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i think rosenfeld was before my time. tho he came up recently, iirc during adlai's expulsion ( he tried to defend , iirc )
mircea_popescu: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/ybaut/do_not_invest_in_bitdaytrade_this_website_is/
mircea_popescu: ancient lulz. basically the 2nd largest exchange (tree something) ran off with the funds, the people involved re-emerged doing all sorts of real estate and "trading" scams.
mircea_popescu: eventually gone away, i guess.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: apparently not ~completely~ gone away: https://archive.li/Byweq << in the 'stipendi peccatus mors est' files
mircea_popescu shrugs. "just a matter of perspective", right ? and then the proof and the blabla.
asciilifeform: aaaaaaaand ave1 diana_coman mircea_popescu it built compiler ( ' Native compiler prefix built by musl-cross aarch64-linux-musl-native ' )
mircea_popescu: o hey.
diana_coman: oh, nice
hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-15#1813690 << tradehill, actually. http://trilema.com/2013/mpoe-pr-almost-two-years-in-the-swamp-an-anthology/#selection-1753.0-1757.232☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-15 21:11 mircea_popescu: ancient lulz. basically the 2nd largest exchange (tree something) ran off with the funds, the people involved re-emerged doing all sorts of real estate and "trading" scams.
mircea_popescu: o right, right. tradehill.
asciilifeform: however : i get 'exec format error' when trying to run any of the bins!!!
asciilifeform: ave1 ^
asciilifeform: oh nm
asciilifeform: apparently his thing builds arm in parallel with x8664
mircea_popescu: lmao you got add over there or what!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: working through the conveyor...
asciilifeform: anyway seems (preliminarily) to work.
mircea_popescu: "it works! it doesn't work! o wait!"
diana_coman is confused
diana_coman: asciilifeform, mind writing it down somewhere head-tail: did this on that and result is this?
asciilifeform: absolutely, gimme a few m
diana_coman: thanks
BingoBoingo: http://media.breitbart.com/media/2018/05/cheesecake.jpg
mircea_popescu: bwahaha. by now the factor of punches to "threats" approaches the facebook.content to facebook.mark-up proportion.
mircea_popescu: a WHOLE RESTAURANT worth of dudes insufficient to produce ~one fucking punch~.
mircea_popescu: 27`001`189 bytes of THREATS of content. no content.
mod6: hehehe
asciilifeform: AAAAAAnd we have a winner! ave1's musltronic gnat builds static, musltronic ffa !!!!
asciilifeform: for x86-64 ( arm not yet tested )
asciilifeform: diana_coman: steps to replicate: 0) on a machine WITH A WORKING GNAT (e.g. adacore's , and it must be in your path already ) 1 ) download the tarball from http://ave1.org/2018/building-gnat-on-musl-now-with-partial-and-parallel-build-support 2) unpack tarball ada-musl-cross-2018-05-15.tgz , go to the dir 3) mkdir bin << this is where the built binariola will live 4) ./build-ada.sh /home/foo/temp/ada/ada-musl-cross-2018-05-15/bin
asciilifeform: << must use full path
asciilifeform: in (4) naturally you put the path of your 'bin' that you made in (3)
asciilifeform: 5-6 hours later ( the parallelization thing dun seem to work, and good chunk of time is spent in autoconf, which never parallelizes ) you get x86-64 and arm64 gnats
asciilifeform: even conveniently tars them up for transport to other boxen.
asciilifeform: i built a ch10 ffa with it, and the result runs.
diana_coman: sounds great actually
asciilifeform: i omitted a step 5 ) put in ~/.bash_profile , the path, e.g. PATH="/home/foo/temp/ada/ada-musl-cross-2018-05-15/bin/x86_64-linux-musl/bin/:$PATH"; export PATH
asciilifeform: but this is sorta obvious
diana_coman: apparently my local-gentoo-for-testing is still borked somewhere in some gcc version as it turns out it had died with ..cannot create executables (although gcc is set to 4.9 etc but this is an experimental box so I'll have to sort it out)
asciilifeform: aanyway lessee if this builds for folx who aren't ave1 & asciilifeform
asciilifeform: diana_coman: classic symptom of botched 6->5->4 gymnastics
diana_coman: hm, come to think of it I could try it on my rockchip I suppose
asciilifeform: nope
asciilifeform: remember, needs a gnat
diana_coman: I thought adacore had a gnat for arm too?
diana_coman: no?
asciilifeform: nope
diana_coman: ugh
asciilifeform: sorta how we began this thread !
asciilifeform: however ave1's script appears to build one.
asciilifeform: ( i have not tested yet )
asciilifeform: it builds x86-64 and arm64 gnats, in one blow
diana_coman: so hm, put it somewhere so I get it to my rockchip and test it in one blow?
asciilifeform: correct.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, whole thing is bootstrapping gnatbox.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, yes, but apparently can't bootstrap on arm
asciilifeform: in principle , the thing will run on any box with an already working gnat.
mircea_popescu: not before it's done once, no.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: recall, gnat is a (mostly) ada proggy.
diana_coman: so let's see; if it works with asciilifeform's freshly produced arm64 gnat
asciilifeform: diana_coman: want the tarball ? ( i have not tested it )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, yes please
asciilifeform: 1s..
asciilifeform: ok, apol. for log clutter :
asciilifeform: e432850de89226c6745301a5932e30c5b09f260b9c850a5e76e8119f66b2f06f1798156138a1741aeff9c46ab90ff1d8ad97d9c089c7d76991a8b7ea8b104bdf muslaarch64-linux-musl-nativeada.tar.gz
asciilifeform: a262186f938b1f1fec335aa6dbf81c5d0110cb9db02d19016943020835293a890d609be795be9bcd18d14023ef54d66da2f86934fe41287b2d009d0db390c188 muslaarch64-linux-muslada.tar.gz
asciilifeform: 0c8ea1b6168d0643b7511eb01faf4f37eb34c03ba9e359e1915b18e40b868ecc4f9b54a962be82e3c7b5aceb53ec6151d8eb572b3816e169d2b598b136d2683b muslx86_64-linux-musl-nativeada.tar.gz
asciilifeform: d6d76ec9f372875e8bf5a4acb45175d9593d6c022e98aab18eab55c10acc1f4fb393b0cb31841981da83621efb7170303b02714a3249a1abdf9342c1bd824e48 muslx86_64-linux-muslada.tar.gz
asciilifeform: all live for now at : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/ada/ave1/FILENAME
asciilifeform: the 'native' ones, iirc, expect an existing musl linux; i tested the x86-64 'muslada'
asciilifeform: result is a 100% static, musltronic elf , which runs without problem on any linux on said arch, expecting no dynamic crapola
asciilifeform: e.g., ldd ./bin/ffa_calc returns
asciilifeform: not a dynamic executable
asciilifeform: and! ditto for ,
asciilifeform: $ ldd `which gprbuild `
asciilifeform: not a dynamic executable
asciilifeform: i.e. the musltronic gnat itself, is a properly static, musltronic elf.
diana_coman: thank you, I'll try it out
mircea_popescu: this guy...
mircea_popescu: !!rated ave1
deedbot: mircea_popescu rated ave1 2 at 2017/07/19 18:58:19 << http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-19#1686605
mircea_popescu: !!rated ave1 2 produced the holy grail : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-15#1813760☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-15 21:40 asciilifeform: result is a 100% static, musltronic elf , which runs without problem on any linux on said arch, expecting no dynamic crapola
mircea_popescu: !!rate ave1 2 produced the holy grail : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-15#1813760☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-15 21:40 asciilifeform: result is a 100% static, musltronic elf , which runs without problem on any linux on said arch, expecting no dynamic crapola
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/rcbGD/?raw=true
asciilifeform: if diana_coman 's arm64 test pans out, this item will be included in the standard rockchip kit from that point on.
asciilifeform: and after this, will become possible to talk about bitwise-repeatable builds of things.
asciilifeform: ( we will find and kill wherever it is gcc's back-end pisses time/date/whatever-unique turds into the output elf )
mircea_popescu: word.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: 1 suggested test, will be to build the thing on itself , on arm
asciilifeform: ( if it works for building anything, should just the same build itself )
diana_coman: asciilifeform, nosuchlabs.com/pub/ada/ave1/muslaarch64-linux-muslada.tar.gz should be for the rockchip, correct?
asciilifeform: correct
asciilifeform: the one i tested earlier, on pc, was muslaarch64-linux-muslada.tar.gz .
asciilifeform: err
asciilifeform: muslx86_64-linux-muslada.tar.gz
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, might be an idea to put the fellow on the pizarro warrants list, considering impact.
asciilifeform: 1 step at a time..
mircea_popescu: yes.
diana_coman: well, I took it, checked it and it was ok, unpacked it and then went to its bin and tried to run gprbuild for instance and it died with exec format error...
asciilifeform has no objection , if the rest of the board does not, to awarding fella a modest prize , if this in fact worxxx
diana_coman: this on the rockchip, obv
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, it builds an arm AND a x86 item. using the right one ?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, this should be the arm thing; hence the above confirmation with asciilifeform that I took the correct thing
diana_coman: and fwiw I tried running from there also ./aarch64-musl-linux-cpp -> same result
asciilifeform: diana_coman: what does readelf -h aarch64-musl-linux-gcc give you ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, i certainly am contemplating same for s.mg. after all, if one's not gonna tie himself to the smart ones, who will he tie himself to.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/xkIGf/?raw=true
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: rrright, but let's award the medals ~after~ problem is Trooly Solved ; otherwise we risk to run out of medals prematurely
mircea_popescu: absolutely.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i suspect mistake : cuz i see http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/gi3gH/?raw=true
asciilifeform: i think you may have unpacked wrong ball
diana_coman: hm, let me try again then
asciilifeform: oh hah
asciilifeform: no not mistake
diana_coman: but kind of weird, I mean: which wrong ball
asciilifeform: his aarch64-native is trooly arm64;
asciilifeform: but his aarch64-linux-musl is... x86-64
asciilifeform: prolly typo in his script.
diana_coman: well, we found it
diana_coman: kind of what testing is for, at any rate
mircea_popescu: ha
asciilifeform: can try the 'native' ( it prolly won't run, iirc it needs a musltronic linux )
asciilifeform: can try also the pc version, on pc ; or later rebuild and get all 4 proper ones once eggog fixed
asciilifeform: ( a build on dulap took ~5 hrs )
diana_coman: aha, why I chose the other one; but I can try the native one anyway too, sure
mircea_popescu: we prolly want to hold the complete set as a sort of standard somewhere anyway.
asciilifeform: once we get http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-15#1813778 , and determine that the thing builds itself , and result builds itself, .... , n-deep☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-15 21:45 asciilifeform: ( we will find and kill wherever it is gcc's back-end pisses time/date/whatever-unique turds into the output elf )
asciilifeform: then -- can tentatively say 'official binaries'
asciilifeform generally deeply dislikes distributing , much less signing, binariola
diana_coman: asciilifeform, I really get that but onth if I have to get a bin I'd much, much rather get one from you than from adacore
asciilifeform: this is fine, so long as it is understood that it is not necessarily 'cleaner' than adacore's
mircea_popescu: there is no way to ~not~ distribute binaries, ever, at all, because of the bootstrap problem.
asciilifeform: ( the thing weighs far too much for anyone to ever audit in the sense contemplated with e.g. ffa )
mircea_popescu: distributing ~just these~ is by far the elegant cut.\
asciilifeform: right.
mircea_popescu: and nothing weighs too much. human weight on planet earth is half a trn tons.
mircea_popescu: the only impossible task is the undefined task. once we pinned it down in the "this and naught else" format, it's doable.
asciilifeform: incidentally 1 other interesting auxiliary project , would be to determine what is the oldest gnat that will build ave1's generator
asciilifeform: and ideally 'gold' binary, to be built with ~that~
mircea_popescu: a lot of peripheral, deeply useful work for the intelligent tuned in.
asciilifeform: ( this is the kind of thing that uncovers thompsonism, say )
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re 'nothing weighs too much', unfortunately this is not so, there are maybe a dozen people who can play, alive, and i actually dun know any of the other 19 , and even a 64kB binturd can be month's work, and problem is not O(n) even.
asciilifeform: *other 11
mircea_popescu: and how do you propose TO MEET THEM ?
asciilifeform: 'come and drink the ocean with me' ?
asciilifeform: lol
asciilifeform: point being, it is actually considerably easier to write a new ada. ( in lisp or in whatever. )
mircea_popescu: you meet intelligent people by having intelligent problems.
asciilifeform: 'write new ada from the spect' is an attractive problem. 'drink the ocean' , not so much.
asciilifeform: *spec
mircea_popescu: you meet idiots by having dumb problems. that's what jail fucking is, even : forced dating club for the sort of idiots dumb enough to be petty criminals.
mircea_popescu: and "drink the ocean" is an eminently attractive problem. in fact, i know of no more attractive class.
asciilifeform: it is much harder problem , than, say, to clear ALL of the unexploded ordnance from ww2. a mine, whatever else can be said of it, is at least a physical object.
asciilifeform: whereas a compiler bug can be a constellation of 9,999 conditions that must occur just-so.
mircea_popescu: we weren't discussing hard.
asciilifeform: (and observe that napoleonic ordnance is still sometimes found. not even to speak of ww2.)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in my experience ( and to asciilifeform personally ) problems which provide zero incremental reward ( not even to speak of massive penalties for failure ) are not attractive.
asciilifeform: medieval serfs who built '400 year' cathedrals, were at least able to see the stones.
mircea_popescu: what can i tell you.
diana_coman: it might be my weird optimism but I'd say people are so starved of interesting problems that not-being-idiotic is already a huge reward
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the correct way to expose thompsonism, is to implement the compiler, and THEN to diff the bins.
asciilifeform: if even 1 bit differs -- then, inquest.
diana_coman quit once a "workplace" with the exact: your idiotic problems won't be my problems anymore
mircea_popescu: looky : a) eventually you will have a binary to cut the boostrap knot ; b) that'll have to be audited ; c) the golden standard of auditing is and remains "check the bricks" rather than "verify the bricking process". hence things like the radioactive brick in cement.
mircea_popescu: attractive problems are always and without exception those where all muck has been cleared and the naked wall of reality is expoised.
mircea_popescu: size and difficulty are not considerations ; the only thing that makes items unattractive is the scent of "other rats" to borrow an eden metaphore.
asciilifeform: it is not possible to say this except when you've never tried to disasm a multiMB turd, what can i say.
asciilifeform: try it some time.
asciilifeform: and then say where the 1 dangling pointer is.
mircea_popescu: at the very least the attempt will inform the "build a compiler" work.
asciilifeform: (there's a reason we're even doing ada.)
asciilifeform brb,meat
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-15#1813816 <- rounding this up: tried it and yes, as expected, arm indeed but can't really use it since no musl☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-05-15 21:55 diana_coman: aha, why I chose the other one; but I can try the native one anyway too, sure
diana_coman: so I started ave1's script on a pc and hopefully I'll have a fresh gnat in the morning
mircea_popescu: cool.
jurov: spyked, iirc we used 4 accounts and it took about a month? surely it's in the log
BingoBoingo: !Q later tell jurov http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ahdGa/?raw=true Thank you
lobbesbot: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: unless you found and fixed ave1's mistake, you will have same eggogy arm64 gnat as i do