log
213 entries in 0.431s
asciilifeform: ( and even the serpent disk thing, even, if we ever get around to baking it )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: serpent's constanttime tho
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform my problem with "trying" is that you're stuck trying your serpent keys on stuff.
diana_coman: you're asking me? lol; look at implementation that it becomes exactly that: http://ossasepia.com/2018/11/10/smg-comms-chapter-7-readwrite-serpent-keysets-tofrom-serpent-messages/#selection-71.1721-71.1777
a111: Logged on 2018-11-10 16:52 asciilifeform: diana_coman: and while we're nitpicking, Serpent message types can be an enumeration (see barnes)
asciilifeform: diana_coman: and while we're nitpicking, Serpent message types can be an enumeration (see barnes)
deedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2018/11/10/smg-comms-chapter-7-readwrite-serpent-keysets-tofrom-serpent-messages/ << Ossasepia - SMG Comms Chapter 7: Read/Write Serpent Keysets to/from Serpent Messages
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re 'sad serpent hole', a d00d like shinohai could easily take my proggy and determine whether e.g. aes's, key expander is injective (afaik nobody ever bothered)
a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 05:07 asciilifeform: relatedly, asciilifeform tried to bake a proof that the lamehash keyinflater function of serpent is one-to-one ( i.e. actually carries 256bit of the key register's entropy into the 528 bytes of whiteolade ) and not only didnt , but realized that afaik no such proof exists for any 'troo' hash also ( incl keccak.. )
a111: Logged on 2018-11-02 14:27 deedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2675 << Loper OS - The Serpent Ciphers Key Schedule Transform is Injective.
deedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2675 << Loper OS - The Serpent Ciphers Key Schedule Transform is Injective.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: soo asciilifeform had a bit of sleep and wakes up and turns out the serpent thing has a twist ending
mircea_popescu: the point you make re serpent is solid -- discussions, by the dumptruck. of anything and everything BUT. went there, yielded within the week.
mircea_popescu: yes, well, the entirety of the morning's discussion reduces to "what the fuck've you been spading, i only hear about serpent-this nao".
mircea_popescu: yes, well, i'm not calibrated by you wth. srsly, what you did to serpent wasn't stroke of genius, but simply spade work. you dispute this ?!
asciilifeform: it's essentially what serpent's ( and afaik errybody's ) key inflater already does. except that it doesn't bother to tell you, simply shits out a colliding output.
mircea_popescu: anyway, no, i'm not married to serpent. i don't even fucking like it that much. i even said so!
asciilifeform: it's how even ended up with serpent.
mircea_popescu: yes, but wrong approach to it all! "here's why serpent's no good, here's why i don't like dea-aes etc, here's rabin method, imo best" IS something.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's obvious, we don't even know serpent is in fact no good, hence "you persuasively suggest may not be good (but not actually done the work to turn that suggestive theory in practice)"
mircea_popescu: good thing we have strong entreopy, to run serpent off it.
mircea_popescu: why is s.mg better off with republican stack than with java stack ? it's still using serpent!
mircea_popescu: the only different element is that today, unlike in 2015 (and not even RIGHT NOW, today as in this year) diana_coman published serpent code.
asciilifeform: ( and , recall, mircea_popescu almost talked me out of it, 'nobody needs iron disk crypter with questionable serpent' )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fwiw i tried all kinds of approaches to breaking serpent in '16
mircea_popescu: i said to diana_coman "implement serpent". that's it.
asciilifeform: unlike the massive pile of pgpgrams-cum-aes we've collectively shat out all over the net, nobody's even ciphered anyffing with serpent of yet, aside from diana_coman's tests
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you haven't launched $billion mars probe with serpent in silicon. so you have option ( not proposing 'let's rabin! right nao!' , it's naturally a measure-7-times-cut-1ce subj )
mircea_popescu: i foresaw this need, in 2015. i put 10 btc behind encouraging people to fix the problem. it died an ignominous death, what i have is serpent, that's what it is.
mircea_popescu: so the way this is going now -- serpent is going to be perfectly good (tm) for the republic, because the republic is the republic of slow moving, mentally confused morons that miss their opportunities to speak usefully.
mircea_popescu: not for his crime of "being smart" and "figuring out the true truth". but for his crime of saying things out of time. because there was a fucking time for this discussion, and it was strictly BEFORE s.mg paid money for people to work their ass off in preference of playing with their kids to get it a serpent.
mircea_popescu: im not attached to serpent in any way other than in the following sense you're well fucking advised to pay attention to : 1. s.mg is a corporation, meaning ith's here to make money. 2. s.mg is also trying, but as a fucking distant second, to be a "good" corporation, however that is politically defined. it doesn't give a fuck about this, not in any deep sense, if the money's good it'll go against policy, and CHANGE policy as i
asciilifeform: ( pretty lulzy, btw, i had nfi mircea_popescu were so attached to serpent, nao i feel sad, it's almost like i killed his dog or wat )
deedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2661 << Loper OS - The Serpent Ciphers Key Schedule Equation System, in Graphical Form.
asciilifeform: i'm almost curious nao, just which nadia will be getting professorship from 'discovering' the serpent lul.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-31 20:41 asciilifeform: ( no prizes for guessing why holyshit.png doesn't appear in the orig 'serpent' paper, or the mountain of 'analysis' ... )
mircea_popescu: in other news, this rapidly deteriorating day (it fucking rained on me at the beach, on TOP of serpent being as tight as hilary's ass) was saved by my ... 404 mn ecu pop in Eulora. very high % valuyable shit, too!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the bigger saddity, is that i dun have anything to offer to plug-in replace 'serpent', nao just as in '16 when mircea_popescu was offering prizes
diana_coman: well, we'll have at least serpent-tiles for interior design
asciilifeform: ( no prizes for guessing why holyshit.png doesn't appear in the orig 'serpent' paper, or the mountain of 'analysis' ... )
asciilifeform: it's a matrix of http://www.loper-os.org/pub/serpent/serpent_with_reduction.txt , prepped for gaussian row-reduction ( xor-sat is in p! motherfuckers ) with horiz. axis -- key bitz, vertical -- expansion bits...
asciilifeform: diana_coman: serpent lulz make sense thus far ?
a111: Logged on 2018-10-30 21:36 asciilifeform: if all (a0..a31, b0..b31, ...) appear in the expansion, then serpent aint actually braindamaged in the sense originally contemplated by asciilifeform .
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/serpent/serpent_with_reduction.txt << for the impatient.
deedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2645 << Loper OS - Serpent Ciphers Key Schedule in Algebraic Form: with Reduction.
asciilifeform: if all (a0..a31, b0..b31, ...) appear in the expansion, then serpent aint actually braindamaged in the sense originally contemplated by asciilifeform .
asciilifeform: and, if we feel like it, can apply the sboxes of http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/22/eucrypt-chapter-11-serpent/#selection-87.13307-87.14692 and produce a 100%-algebraic statement of the entire key inflater.
deedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2632 << Loper OS - Terms -88 of the Serpent Ciphers Key Schedule in Algebraic Form.
asciilifeform: gotta point out, serpent aint dead yet
mircea_popescu: i suppose that could be the backup alternative then : if we end up ditching serpent, we use a rsa packet to move ~1.4kb of entropy for initializing the mt, and then use mt generated pads for a cipher.
mircea_popescu: as best i can tell -- the only options are either keep using serpent or else use some kind of recursive hash otp
asciilifeform: test is straightforward, you take yer vintage serpent and feed in k1,string, get ciphertext1, k2,string, get ciphertext2, and observe that the ciphertexts are same (cuz key expanded to same thing)
a111: Logged on 2018-10-29 19:39 asciilifeform: pretty handy proof , however, that the xor liquishit on the right hand side of those serpent eqs, doesn't conserve entropy !
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-29#1867215 << dun feel sad, serpent had to hang on asciilifeform's wall for 2yrs before this. ☝︎
asciilifeform: pretty handy proof , however, that the xor liquishit on the right hand side of those serpent eqs, doesn't conserve entropy !
asciilifeform: pretty tired from curing serpent.
mircea_popescu: weaker than serpent.
asciilifeform: for lulz, would be interesting to dig up the list of 'luminaries' who voted for serpent. ( last i recall, it was public )
asciilifeform: btw i seem to recall that the original mircea_popescu & diana_coman thread where 'let's try serpent' turned up that the current 'paper' is not in fact the original, and the orig has evaporated. nao gotta wonder what was in it.
asciilifeform: hilariously, i have a tall pile of academiliquishit re serpent right here on desk, and it ALL without exception dwells on the sboxes & lineartransform, 0 discussion of key schedule.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 17:04 mircea_popescu: in short, because this winding discussion risks overwhelming buffers, the salient points are a) that i'm not ready to go to war over serpent, it's a meh-maybe item ; b) that building our spearheads around items we're not willing to die for may be how the converse of http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=bitcoin+corrupts altogether.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 16:48 mircea_popescu: i am experimenting with serpent, and yes it's borne of that ancient discussion of ours, but i'm nowhere near-ready to bake it into "this is tmsr secure disk"
asciilifeform: relatedly, for shits & giggles asciilifeform has been reading a 'digital evidence' law school textbook, for entomological/ameritardological studies, and it goes out of its way to mention 'serpent sank an fbi case'
asciilifeform: thus far, afaik, we already know that there aint 2**256 possible 528-byte serpent expandedkeys. nor 2**128. and as i currently suspect, not even 2**64 .
asciilifeform: the actual bitness of serpent , seems like, is so small as to be iterable on pc.
asciilifeform: logic : take the key inflator http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/22/eucrypt-chapter-11-serpent/#selection-87.13060-87.13306 ;
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not only were you right, but i just about have a handle on deriving the factual key bitness of serpent..
diana_coman: asciilifeform, no proof that I'm aware of, as per earlier http://www.dianacoman.com/2017/11/22/taming-of-the-serpent-in-ada/#selection-49.0-49.393
asciilifeform: ( in serpent inflator, the only ops are xor, rotate, and sboxation, all 3 conserve entropy )
asciilifeform: actually, funnily enuff , i nao see a proof for serpent's, but not keccak
asciilifeform: relatedly, asciilifeform tried to bake a proof that the lamehash keyinflater function of serpent is one-to-one ( i.e. actually carries 256bit of the key register's entropy into the 528 bytes of whiteolade ) and not only didnt , but realized that afaik no such proof exists for any 'troo' hash also ( incl keccak.. )
asciilifeform: ^ summary of serial i/o processor thing asciilifeform baked. will be applicable even if we come up with sumthing less sad than serpent, in fyootoor.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-29#1866964 << specifically in the context of the 'crypto contest' where serpent was trotted out, there was a loud and pompous 'here's ciphers, with jusfifications!' circus. so imho the excuse of 'not knew to wash hands yet' is not available ☝︎
asciilifeform: https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/Papers/serpent.pdf ( pdfturd! ) << near as i can tell, is the 'full paper' referred to in the 'short'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i have a serious wtf re serpent, and neither the s.mg/classic ada, nor the orig paper, has helped me to make sense of it, and i'm suspecting that i'm thick... so here it is:
deedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2627 << Loper OS - Serpent in ICE40, Part 2.
mircea_popescu: i certainly see the point re "explore the space" ; and yes a serpent implemented as both eulora workhorse and verilog is better studied than just former.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 16:08 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in re these lulz, at one point asciilifeform dug for 'anybody ever verilog-ified serpent?' and found a stack of 'papers'. any src ? mno. but plenty of 'discussion' of supposed 'implementation', in the traditional nadia henninger style .
asciilifeform: i admit, the seekrit reason asciilifeform could even be arsed to pick the thing up, is that to write serpent in maximally algebraic form might tell us sumthing useful re the weakness.
asciilifeform: is the actual parallelism of the algo. the rotator would likewise win from having 32 physical instances, as obvious from http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/22/eucrypt-chapter-11-serpent/#selection-87.15048-87.17527
asciilifeform: if i were baking asic ( not sure why anybody would blow 'orbit' moneys on serpent asic, but for the sake of arg ) would unroll the sbox invocation the way it is unrolled in the pc serpent diana_coman is using, there'd be no reason not to have 128 or what, independent copies. but in the tight space of ice40 this is out of the question.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: observe also that the sbox mechanism is 'bitsliced' (i.e. the bits move only 'vertically' there ) so potentially it can be shrunk at expense of speed . so the real puzzler isn't 'does serpent fit', it can almost certainly be shoehorned, but 'with how little/much unrollage' i.e. what resulting eating bitrate.
deedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2593 << Loper OS - Can the Serpent Cipher fit in the ICE40 FPGA?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: classical serpent eats 256bit key. but ( as illustrated in http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/22/eucrypt-chapter-11-serpent/ ) eats/shits 16 byte payload blox as it goes; a 4096 byte flash sector would need 8 of these, plus i suspect a 9th for the block # ( see earlier re 'known plaintext'ism etc )
mircea_popescu: but wasnt serpent size 256byte ?
asciilifeform: and the q of 'would serpent fit in ice40' is imho also worth answering. i'ma put it in the pipe.
a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 16:08 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in re these lulz, at one point asciilifeform dug for 'anybody ever verilog-ified serpent?' and found a stack of 'papers'. any src ? mno. but plenty of 'discussion' of supposed 'implementation', in the traditional nadia henninger style .
asciilifeform: ( if anyffing, moar -- iron sepentron is only 'broken' if it actually is captured by enemy prior to serpent-pops )
asciilifeform: and will point out, errybody who transmitted rsa-over-serpent in the 20yrs prior to $breakthrough is just as hosed as the folx who were using pocket iron serpentrons
asciilifeform: and nao you have bright-kid-cipher instead of serpent, same iron
asciilifeform: incidentally , baking such box doesn't marry to serpent, can replace the ice40's feed rom whenever, with whatever one likes
mircea_popescu: in short, because this winding discussion risks overwhelming buffers, the salient points are a) that i'm not ready to go to war over serpent, it's a meh-maybe item ; b) that building our spearheads around items we're not willing to die for may be how the converse of http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=bitcoin+corrupts altogether.
mircea_popescu: i want serpent to take me out to dinner first! what!
mircea_popescu: but as it stands, seems sending people to bring me a serpent hdd is not unlike sending people to bring be titted boars. why, can't use women ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suspect that there will not be a 'civilized' symmetric cipher, i.e. item with less voodoo flavour to it than 'serpent'
mircea_popescu: i am experimenting with serpent, and yes it's borne of that ancient discussion of ours, but i'm nowhere near-ready to bake it into "this is tmsr secure disk"
mircea_popescu: whole problem of "nobody serpent" etc goes away
asciilifeform: serpent was bottleneck, in that gedankenbox.
asciilifeform: ( 'electric' serpent is actually somewhat nontrivial, on acct of the gnarly 'key schedule' algo and the arrayed sboxes )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in re these lulz, at one point asciilifeform dug for 'anybody ever verilog-ified serpent?' and found a stack of 'papers'. any src ? mno. but plenty of 'discussion' of supposed 'implementation', in the traditional nadia henninger style .