assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38300 @ 0.00047409 = 18.1576 BTC [-]
davout: mircea_popescu: "but for the sake of argument, explain to me how exactly is this any less than some derpy cartoonists being shot by some random idiots ?" <<< easier for the media to blame teh arabs than to blame their president i'd say
davout: but if this murder thing is that obvious, zero is indeed very low amount of protest
mod6: davout: thx for posting.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31600 @ 0.00047146 = 14.8981 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20049 @ 0.00047146 = 9.4523 BTC [-]
kakobrekla: >the best guess from our devs is that the bid was filtered out because the highest bid was > lowest ask.
mircea_popescu: davout here's the story : big bombing here in the 70s, at the jewish center. dozens of victims.
mircea_popescu: teheran was behind it. first investigation said so. presidency (same fambly since forever) tabled it.
mircea_popescu: they created a "joint comission" with iran. it didn't get anywhere.
mircea_popescu: da finally came out and said, here's how the president is linked to the whole thing.
felipelalli: how can I fix that? I can't delete or update it.
mircea_popescu: "Edit: On IRC, Gavin explained he already talked to most (all?) big merchant processors and exchanges, and they were all onboard." derp.
mircea_popescu: but yes, im sure gavin "talked" to everyone handled by the same office.
mircea_popescu: this is fine, the us wants to be humiliated on this front too, let it be humiliated on this front too.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the "ukrainian government" still exists right ?
mircea_popescu: so if they're willing to commit to the same level, they'll get the same result.
mircea_popescu: you know, the fucking exchanges send like an email on everything now?
nubbins`: "here is some hamster nesting sprinkled on your piece"
nubbins`: "I happen to be a woodworker of 40+ years myself (yes, I really am that old) and I contacted WoodCollecter just a couple days ago to see if he was interested in buying some Ironwood, although I never looked at his work. Now i see this and my mind is completely boggled. I did not read every post here, but I can affirm the opinion of a few I saw that have said that the intricate carving in question is done with a laser. I am 100% sure about
nubbins`: "You can clearly see the line by line marks left on this piece that are definitely, without a doubt, with 100% certainty left by a laser engraver exactly the same as a printer does:"
mircea_popescu: this one is just as plausible. all you need is to be stupid.
mircea_popescu: He did the BTC from memory << ok that's pretty good lol
mircea_popescu: nubbins` at this point, expecting a "well of course SOME PARTS were done with a laser but that's not what we were talking about" pivot for the entire "you're a bad person for hurting my feelings and i'm putting together a lynch party" talk
mats: is concealing the laser job hard?
mats: sand the damn thing?
mircea_popescu: a) do not make too tiny cuts that wouldn't have survived mechanically b) clean the fucking piece.
mircea_popescu: very common problem people have on the internet, the "everyone is as stupid as me / everyone's a goat the same gender and age as me" issue.
☟︎☟︎ assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57273 @ 0.00047683 = 27.3095 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: it's like a diamond, depends which way the light falls.
mircea_popescu: "I can and will still prove to you that Nubbins is full of shit and on a smear campaign, i am now just choosing to do so directly with the people who matter, not every tom dick and harry that thinks they know a darn thing about woodworking"
mircea_popescu: he can still prove it to you, but only secretly and if oyu agree.
mircea_popescu: the funny thing (to me) here is, gotany idea how much of this shit floated before there was an internet ?
mircea_popescu: how many idiotic "artisans" filled each corner of england ?
nubbins`: you have any idea how many fuckin miracles my folks didn't let me buy?!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i mean it deeper than that. i mean, actual quacks passing for professionals. see, since the internet there's a line being drawn : sure both gavin and wood dude pass to a certain crowd as idiots for the genuine article. but there exists a thinking crowd that sees through it.
mircea_popescu: fifty or five hundred years ago, that wasn't a crowd. it was sole individuals, and the idiots were still a crowd.
mircea_popescu: if gavin were a blacksmith, he probably would have passed for a good one. if this guy were an actual lumberjack, he'd probably have counted for a fine lumberjack.
mircea_popescu: notwithstanding that he'd have a complex story as to how earthworms cause trees to flower
mircea_popescu: old men pretending to be teaching the young'uns "trigonometry" who thought pi = 3.
mircea_popescu: genders don't preserve through the eons, they bleed. the french soldier of 1800 wasn't a soldier in 1750. he was a peasant.
mircea_popescu: right about at the time they tarred and feathered that asinine idiot who said they should wash hands
☟︎ mircea_popescu: the type of plague that destroys the medical community, that guy.
mircea_popescu: "Question: Why would I go to the fucking dumpy ass trailer park called Lake Havasu when I am currently living in Carefree and 10 minutes from Scottsdale?" lol i was waiting for this.
mircea_popescu: One night, Charles Manners (Lord Lieutenant of Ireland) appeared in the regal box at the theatre on the same night that Peg was attending the show with her girls. Some wags in the gallery began shouting at her “Oy Peg! Who slept with you last night, Peg?” Peg gave them an imperious look, threw a dramatic glance at the Lord Lieutenant and in a scolding tone, said: “Manners, you dogs!”
decimation: it lives in warm freshwater, and finds that human brains are tastey
mats: thanks for ruining swimming decimation
undata: warning to neti-pot users: same thing can happen... boil the water
mike_c: ;;later tell BingoBoingo draft submitted
mircea_popescu: "Downsides of a hardfork are simply that all nodes who do not go along with the upgrade are left without a functioning Bitcoin node, and susceptible to fraud (double spending, etc). This means a mandatory update of every node in the wild, which could require hardware upgrades as well. Miners are not in any special position to decide a hardfork, and are at the mercy of the bitcoin users (mainly merchants and exchanges)
mircea_popescu: as far as hardforking goes." << the downside of a hardfork is that every user that buys into the gavin scam will be left without a bitcoin node.
mircea_popescu: ;;sell 1000 Gavin Scamcoins @750 Bitcoin Future delivery. Larger amounts will get you an even better deal. Smaller amounts may be considered.
gribble: Error: 'Scamcoins' is not a valid price input.
mircea_popescu: ;;sell 1000 "Gavin Scamcoins" @750 Bitcoin Future delivery. Larger amounts will get you an even better deal. Smaller amounts may be considered.
gribble: Error: '@750' is not a valid price input.
mircea_popescu: ;;sell 1000 "Gavin Scamcoins" @ 750 Bitcoin Future delivery. Larger amounts will get you an even better deal. Smaller amounts may be considered.
gribble: Error: For identification purposes, you must be identified via GPG to use the order book.
Luke-Jr: mircea_popescu: no, what you describe is an attack disguised as a hardfork
Luke-Jr: a real hardfork is one where the community is in agreement on it
Luke-Jr: mircea_popescu: there isn't anything yet, he hasn't even proposed one
mircea_popescu: there is no "community" agreement. reddit isn;'t the community.
mircea_popescu: and what lies gavin is sprouting to an eager ear... his problem.
Luke-Jr: he's blogged about a possible proposal
mircea_popescu: i will just remind you that you actually believed the bfl scammers, and stained your own beard lieing about THAT delivery.
Luke-Jr: when he proposes it, then people can argue for/against it, and either it will gain consensus or it won't
mircea_popescu: yeah, you did. you were promised one thing, got another thing, they told you "it's just as good, pretend like you got the original". and you did. becauser you believed them, that delivery's imminent and errything.
Luke-Jr: mircea_popescu: what? I said I got what i got.
mircea_popescu: same shit's happening here. gavin is lying, and you're falling for it.
Luke-Jr: mircea_popescu: did you read the discussion earlier in #bitcoin-dev ? nobody is going to just go along with this as it is right now.
Luke-Jr: mircea_popescu: Gavin wants to know what has to happen for people to agree to it - he isn't trying to force it through without consensus
mircea_popescu: ;;sell 1000 "Gavin Scamcoins" @ 750 Bitcoin Future delivery. Larger amounts will get you an even better deal. Smaller amounts may be considered.
Luke-Jr: so unless you think dogmatically blocksize must remain 1 MB forever.. tell him what needs to happen to make you comfortable with it
mircea_popescu: ;;sell 1000 "Gavin Scamcoins" @ 750 BTC Future delivery. Larger amounts will get you an even better deal. Smaller amounts may be considered.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: including the actual bitcoin foundation is the correct move there. mod6 ben_vulpes are in charge.
☟︎ assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34900 @ 0.00046197 = 16.1228 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla hey is there going to be a party on the log's 1mn th line ?
Luke-Jr: so is this a Bitcoin Core fork?
undata: danielpbarron: damned quick on the twitter draw
Luke-Jr: is there a place I can see the code? the ML archives linked a github, but it is 404
mod6: Luke-Jr: not even sure where you found that link..
Luke-Jr: I see no tar, except a build
mod6: If you don't want to bother digging through the mailing list for patches, you can just dl the tarballs under "Submitted Patches" on thebitcoin.foundation site
mod6: Although the rm_checkpoints one will probably be tabled before the end of the month.
Luke-Jr: I don't want patches, I want the complete code.
Luke-Jr: what are the patches even against in the first place?
mod6: Well, that's what there is: the v0.5.3 base + patch files.
decimation: Luke-Jr: how do you discern the trustworthiness of the author?
Luke-Jr: which patch contains the post-0.5.3 hardforks?
Luke-Jr: decimation: why do I care about the author?
mod6: there is not anything post v0.5.3 patched in at this point.
Luke-Jr: it can't, if you don't have the 0.8.1 hardfork patched in..
☟︎ Luke-Jr: mod6: so it's like 3000 blocks behind?
mod6: dude, that was published on the 1st of january.
Luke-Jr: ok, so how are you getting it to work without the hardfork?
decimation: do you have a document describing what exactly changed in this hardfork?
Luke-Jr: the bdb lock limitation was removed
undata: Luke-Jr: inspect db_config.tar.gz maybe
undata: that one diddles the knobs on bdb
Luke-Jr compares with the 0.5.x backport of the hardfork
Luke-Jr: why not base it on 0.5.7 or 0.5.8rc3 btw?
mod6: i cant believe im going to do this
mod6: it was selected because "reasons"
☟︎ Luke-Jr: I think the db_config patch may explain why it works, but could be potentially inadequate for the current consensus rules
☟︎ Luke-Jr: looks like Gavin's recommendations, which were lame
Luke-Jr: dunno, it's lost in history now
Luke-Jr: the 0.5.x backport just changed set_lk_max_locks to 537000
Luke-Jr: not sure why this patch is reducing set_lg_max..
nubbins`: <+Luke-Jr> why not base it on 0.5.7 or 0.5.8rc3 btw? <<< i said 0.6.1...
nubbins`: it was decided that 0.5.3 was the earliest that'd still work.
nubbins`: or rather, that 0.5.3 was the point at which no further breaking changes were implemented
Luke-Jr: nubbins`: 0.4.9rc3 should work I think
Luke-Jr: I maintained that up until Sep 2013
Luke-Jr: including through the 0.8.1 hardfork
Luke-Jr: decimation: Bitcoin Core does not use bdb for the blockchain
Luke-Jr: ie, those limits are for the wallet
nubbins`: tracking down vintage 0.5.3 and applying .foundation patches = fun times
nubbins`: start with chicken.tar.gz and go from there
mod6: i've got a script now...
mod6: but i'll publish it to the list with some refinements before the end of the month
nubbins`: it's all in easily-digestible chunks, no sweat to eyeball each patch & fully understand what's going on
Luke-Jr: "tracking down" as if it's disappeared
Luke-Jr: nubbins`: my git client did
Luke-Jr: also, MD5 is not safe for this
nubbins`: and so disappearing is not precisely the concern :D
mod6: just need to change ``HOME'' to where you wanna build
Luke-Jr: do you guys dislike git or something? O.o
Luke-Jr: git basically uses a "blockchain" and makes it very hard to rewrite history
mod6: we wanted unified diffs we could sign
Luke-Jr: mod6: git supports signing commits
Luke-Jr: although I suppose that doesn't help if you want multiple people to sign them
mod6: yeah, there was a whole discussion surrounding this entire process. it's in the logs.
Luke-Jr: oh well, I guess it's managable if you don't plan to do much maintenance to it
decimation: Luke-Jr: the idea is that signed patches would be read by people, who would then sign
Luke-Jr: yeah, it's definitely a shortcoming of git
Luke-Jr: anyhow, if the goal is oldest version, I'd recommend going off 0.4.x; either way, I'd recommend fixing the bdb hardfork
Luke-Jr: and I hope Gavin doesn't plan to just ignore DarkWallet and your fork - though I wouldn't be surprised if he did to be honest
Luke-Jr: might help if the devs here participated in the discussions in #bitcoin-dev when it came up.. maybe
decimation: I'm not sure folks here are interested in 'maintaining' as much as understanding and recreating
Luke-Jr: asciilifeform: I agree Gavin should persuade you - but he will probably ignore you if you're not there discussing it
Luke-Jr: (persuade you, as opposed to you persuading him to stop)
Luke-Jr: (ugh, I'm being unclear: I mean the onus is on him to convince you, and you shouldn't have to convince him)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88901 @ 0.00046346 = 41.2021 BTC [+] {2}
decimation: why would we care what some guy (like gavin) commits into some random github repo?
mircea_popescu: Blazedout419 hey, my question to you is, did you actually pay 14k for that guy's wooden thing, as represented ? or was it more like a sweetheart sort of deal for advertising sake, like the sillycon valley does ?
Luke-Jr: decimation: it's not "some random github repo", it's the code that most nodes *will* be running unless someone objects
Luke-Jr: decimation: also, Gavin is no longer the final word for any git repo
mircea_popescu: Luke-Jr anyway, inasmuch as everyone actually wants bitcoin to prevail, divergence of opinion isn't much of a problem. however, the conservative rather than the progressive approach must be observed. change doesn't happen just for the sake of changing things. this isn't a fad or an ipad gizmo. if consensus can't be reached for whatever reason, whoever doesn't like it leaves and starts over, rather than pretending the o
Luke-Jr: mircea_popescu: I'm definitely in favour of taking a conservative approach, and I'm pretty sure most of the Bitcoin Core team is as well. I think Gavin was probably frustrated earlier when it came up in #bitcoin-dev because nobody could give him a straightforward "way to convince everyone"
mircea_popescu: sometimes we don't get what we want. that doesn't mean our wants now have a wild card and nothing else matters anymore. this isn't school.
mircea_popescu: what's next, start assaulting women because "nobody told me how to seduce any woman" ?
Luke-Jr: mircea_popescu: If Gavin wanted to force the hardfork, he wouldn't be frustrated at his inability to convince people ;)
Luke-Jr: anyhow, I don't think Gavin knows people here have concerns. I'd suggest doing a writeup of what those concerns are, and what Gavin needs to do if he wants your approval for a hardfork. I know you shouldn't *have to*, but otherwise I don't see any way this is likely to come to a resolution.
mircea_popescu: people here don't "have concerns". people here are going to skin the fork as proposed so far, no argument there. gavin can start reading or press ahead, either way.
Luke-Jr: especially if Gavin has the big merchants and exchanges onboard - if they follow his lead on this, everyone who wants to buy stuff with Bitcoin is likely to follow along too, for better or worse
mircea_popescu: the one large merchant left in bitcoin so far is mpex.
mircea_popescu: but if you absolutely must see bitpay die before you wake up, it can be arranged.
Luke-Jr: please. how many people actually even use MPEX?
mircea_popescu: coinbase made the round, which i guess gains it a little space. NOT that much.
mircea_popescu: enough to make me 600 btc in the month bitpay made a loss.
Luke-Jr: that could be a single person with a lot of volume
Luke-Jr: head counts matter more than volume sometimes
mircea_popescu: point being, mpex is, currently, > 50% of "bitcoin business". like it or not, it's a fact.
mircea_popescu: but if headcount feels the need to learn this through headcollisions with hard objects, it may.
Luke-Jr: I find it very hard to believe MPEX is even 1% of bitcoin business
mircea_popescu: it's so far 100% of the bitcoin "told the usg to get fucked" party. once you digest that you might be in a better position to evaluate who matters and who doesn't,
Luke-Jr: look, I respect your right to be free of US interference since you're outside the US, but governmental politics has basically nothing to do with hardforks
Luke-Jr: I can't imagine how the block size is at all related to governments, or why a government would aim to change it.
mircea_popescu: you don't get a private island just because you want one. things have to do with each other, it's the way of the world.
mircea_popescu: listen, arguing to ignorance is really bad engineering.
mircea_popescu: i don't know why a whale would want to be 20 tons. so what of it.
Luke-Jr: you think the block size issue is USG-inspired? what do they have to gain from it?
mircea_popescu: this is too lengthy a discussion. bitcoin is perceived as a threat by pretty much every central bank, you know that much.
Luke-Jr: sure - how does that cross over into the block size matter?
mircea_popescu: there's many intertwined issues there. the outermost layer is, to establish whether an english speaking cia visitor is even in a position to push through a hardfork.
Luke-Jr: by himself? then it's a simple "no" I hope
Luke-Jr: any hardfork needs at least a supermajority of bitcoin users
mircea_popescu: his rethoric was different a coupla months ago, and as far as anyone can tell hasn't actually caught up with your representation thereof.
decimation: it seems to me that the enemies of bitcoin would love to think that they could 'update' the protocol as they desire
assbot: Logged on 10-09-2014 11:54:21; mircea_popescu: other than proper cryptography for all foss, as discussed coupla days re gentoo overlays etc, i would fucking love for all lines of code to come with a counter.
assbot: Logged on 22-10-2014 18:53:07; mircea_popescu: it's one thing to trust this rnd function because asciilifeform and 25 others signed on reading it.
mircea_popescu: decimation for sure, making it plain that bitcoin isn't a sort of
http / pki / dns / ietf / whatever captive protocol in the courtyard of some us dependent or another is quite valuable. first and foremost for bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: "Likewise, in the worst case if Bitcoin did overshoot to become centralized alt-coins and the market would again solve the problem."
ben_vulpes: anyone getting spammed with CTCP messages from a mramberg?
mircea_popescu: i am kinda shocked nobody is wanting to buy gavincoins from me for a fucking steep discount, incidentally.
mircea_popescu: this is like ether all over again. "oh we have tons of support!!1" "how come nobody is trading ?" "it';s mystical support. woodcollector knows all about it. we'll send you a private video." etc.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21900 @ 0.00045657 = 9.9989 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: "tldr: economically speaking, core dev team should not worry about increasing the block size limit until at the very least we see average transaction fees consistently above the 0.0001 btc 'minimum'. At that point we can revisit this debate. There are other questions about feasibility and politics that I'll leave out."
mircea_popescu: reddit : "You're only looking at the technical side of it. Leaving the 1 MB block size issue for later is risky due to political/social reasons. Every hard fork brings with it uncertainty and risks because it requires wide consensus to be carried out smoothly. As long as these risks hang over the Bitcoin economy, many companies will be hesitant to make long-term commitments to the Bitcoin economy. Afterall, a hard fork
mircea_popescu: could lead to Bitcoin community splitting into two networks, or a hard fork could end up not happening due to community infighting. Both of these would be disastrous for the Bitcoin economy.
mircea_popescu: The 1 MB block size limit needs to removed as soon as possible, and replaced with something that scales automatically, rather than through risky hard forks that require political consensus. It's 2015, Microsoft, one of the largest companies in the world, accepts Bitcoin, and the Bitcoin network can only handle 3 transactions per second, unless there is a hard fork. Getting rid of the 1 MB block size limit is long overd
mircea_popescu: With the limit in place, Bitcoin runs the risk of stagnating. When the limit is lifted, I predict we will see mass adoption."
mircea_popescu: because a) we deeply care about the "i predicts" of propaganda agents ; b) "hurry up guise, if we don't do it while nobody's looking we won't be able to do it at all"
decimation: lol yeah joe sixpack is not using bitcoin because of the block size limit
mircea_popescu: what sort of rotten oats would an ass have to eat to imagine that something that couldn't be done later should be done now. it's the screaming declaration of "we don't represent anyone but wish to rule everyone"
mircea_popescu: decimation the craftyness of it, tho. who is presented as the golden standard ? microsoft. because why ?
decimation: the Legislative Assembly was more than happy to recognize Georges Danton as their leader after he marched in front of the 20,000 strong mob
decimation: well, one lesson is that Danton had an organization. it is odd that the supposed right-wing supporters of heirarchy are usually out-flanked by their enemies on their left when it comes to organizing the little people
mircea_popescu: decimation i don't really see it the same way. when nanotube was disappeared earlier this month, gribble got replaced within something like a week. seems to me the organisation's fine.
mircea_popescu: of course, the right doesn't generally create unruly mobs of idiots that spout nonsense. this, principally, because the right is not comfortable for idiots.
mircea_popescu: how's this a problem anyway ? pre-bitcoin, pre-gpg, etc, i can see it. today ? who gives a shit ?
mircea_popescu: similarly one could observe that the soviet union had very impressive victory day parades. sure. this, principally, because the soviet citizen had little better to do, either productively, for leisure or for his own safety.
mircea_popescu: i'm not about to regret that reagan didn't make more us workers go to party indoctrination class.
decimation: yeah that's a good point, the heirarchy is too busy running actual business - it doesn't have time to prance around and promise the moon to the sans-culottes
mircea_popescu: everyone i know that's not dumb is busy doing shit. the people "discussing" on reddit are an entirely different brand. if tomorrow they were replaced with a frog infested pond, what'd happen ?
mircea_popescu: would you even notice that same day ? that week ? ever ?
mircea_popescu: "Do you have any anecdotal examples of crypto users on the side lines saying things like,
mircea_popescu: Yes, I personally have lost enthusiasm for recruiting merchants, because I don't know what will happen once 1 MB block size limit is reached, "
assbot: Bitcoin in Argentina : exactly nothing to do with the derps pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... (
http://bit.ly/1yp9fMi )
mircea_popescu: i suppose bitpay "embassy" is still deserted because whatever, people were insecure about what may happen if the bitpie in the sky is smaller than perceived.
mircea_popescu: Luke-Jr Name a single Bitcoin expert who thinks 1 MB blocks will be sufficient forever? << 1mb blocks MAY be sufficient forever.
mircea_popescu: the onus to show that they DEFINITELY WILL NOT BE is on you lot of "bitcoin experts"
decimation: asciilifeform: maryland has a surplus of frogs & toads
mircea_popescu: this idiocy with "Assurance contracts" takes the cake.
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2015 22:42:34; decimation: at any rate, this is a problem for actual miners to solve in the future, and they will likely despise any actions taken today on their behalf
mircea_popescu: "hey listen, we have a perfect system that works in proved practice to reward miners. let's replace it with some libertard idiocy that a) provedly never worked in practice and b) for well understood theoretical reasons that we don't like so they don't really exist"
mircea_popescu: assurance contracts. srsly. what's next, replace wallets with obamacare website ?
mircea_popescu: will totally work. unless you know, for a few months when launched. and well... if you make a wallet that's not your walletr.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30000 @ 0.00047253 = 14.1759 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: if i wasn't so disinterested i'd have someone mine reddit to get a relative comparison of votes/words wasted on gavin's coin vs neobee
mircea_popescu: the same sort of rabid idiocy seems to be wafting from both of them. half curious if the same "pr" company hired for both.
undata: and libertarians claim to be goldbugs...
undata: yet they want bitcoin to be the mastercard network
mircea_popescu: quite. no they, and nothing's being particularly wanted.
undata: this guy, horde of upvoting minions, whoever
undata is merely wondering why anyone would think "supah fast transactions" and not "immutable unit of value for all time" is the thing
mod6: yeah, they're spenders, not savers.
mircea_popescu: " phantomcircuitDiablo-D3, the real danger here is convincing people who dont truly understand the problem that something is safe which is in fact extremely risky"
mircea_popescu: but he's willing to buy people drinks in san juan, who knows, maybe then.
mircea_popescu: i don't think the 0.1 source was ever actually released
assbot: Original Bitcoin Source Code Archives - bitcointrading.com - bitcoin trading buy/sell classifieds forum ... (
http://bit.ly/1JbFlwM )
mircea_popescu: you know, that's the guy that came up with a glbse asset that consisted of buying lottery tickets ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, re go : you know the only other bitcoin implementation is btcd, written in go ?
mod6: asciilifeform: werd
mod6: bitcoin in C is sexy
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62200 @ 0.00045216 = 28.1244 BTC [-] {2}
Pierre_Rochard: “errything fine up there ?” <- debatable, I’ve been studying tax accounting, which can be deleterious to the mind
Pierre_Rochard: The point I was trying to make is that Gavinonomics has no notion of demand elasticity for bitcoin transactions
mircea_popescu: how's the "talking sense at redditards" business going ?
Pierre_Rochard: horribly, it’s a particularly terrible form of procrastination
mircea_popescu: it doesn't seem to have much notion of economics in any sense.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44800 @ 0.00047758 = 21.3956 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5050 @ 0.00048855 = 2.4672 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> davout here's the story : big bombing here in the 70s, at the jewish center. dozens of victims. << was this a proxy attack on israel?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes for all i know it was just overflowing idiocy.
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> any reason to doubt that the usg exchanges and other scum are 'on board' (for what that's worth) ? << it is going to be *fascinating* to see how coinbase et. al are going to handle this
mircea_popescu: coinbase made its round, so it may have a little leeway.
assbot: BitBet - Bitcoin main net block size to increase in 2015 :: 0.13 B (11%) on Yes, 1.07 B (89%) on No | closing in 9 months 4 weeks | weight: 94`308 (100`000 to 1) ... (
http://bit.ly/1sXn2t1 )
ben_vulpes: sure enough, brief discussion in teh lawgs
ben_vulpes: then off into a discussion about bitbet mathematical/statistical arcana
assbot: Logged on 08-01-2015 22:31:37; mircea_popescu: "Gavincoin orphan chain to reach 50 blocks before being abandoned" is kinda not the same as "Blockchain will increase"
ben_vulpes: i'm just sitting here imagining the ways gavincoin could play out
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12100 @ 0.000465 = 5.6265 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: <Luke-Jr> [] not sure why this patch is reducing set_lg_max.. << lol i love the stream of consciousness as Luke-Jr reads through source
mircea_popescu: "There is currently no way to guarantee that any two versions of Bitcoin software, whether they are two different versions of Bitcoin Core, two different versions of alternative implementations, a version of Bitcoin Core versus a version of an alternative implementation, or even two copies of the same version of Bitcoin Core built with different compiler versions are in exact consensus agreement. Doing so is incredibly
mircea_popescu: difficult and borders on impossible. The issue is implementation independent."
mircea_popescu: "The current solution as proposed by Bitcoin Core is, when you get right down to it, “let’s just be really careful with code changes and hope for the best”. There is no real disaster recovery or prevention plan. Yes, there is ongoing work to split the consensus critical bits out into a library and I think this is a good idea and am glad to see it happening. However, it still does nothing to address the real fun
mircea_popescu: damental issue stated above nor does it provide disaster recovery or prevention."
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, gavin's top priority is... you've guessed it.
mircea_popescu: usually not that big. sometimes fucking ridiculous (like the one time when they changed versioning)
mircea_popescu: and yet the "uncertaininty" is generated by imaginary problems. not by this.
mircea_popescu: sort-of like the man who gets drenched in volcanic eruptions every single week, worrying about meteors falling.
ben_vulpes: i don't know if i was around at that point.
ben_vulpes: wasn't even keeping logs at that point
mircea_popescu: sometime in 2012 an uncontroversial fork was put in, so that sometime in 2013 blocks are mined with version 2 instead of version 1.
mircea_popescu: except for no particular reason the check was against a signed value (the very careful part), which inadvertently reduced a scarce resource
ben_vulpes: got a writeup somewhere? i don't understand the implications straight off.
mircea_popescu: wholla lotta dumb in his funny looking head otherwise.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50000 @ 0.00048078 = 24.039 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19800 @ 0.00048078 = 9.5194 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46850 @ 0.000465 = 21.7853 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 22 @ 0.11000003 = 2.42 BTC [-] {4}
mats: dos via cert chain replacement
assbot: Oracle to fix 167 vulnerabilities, including a backdoor-like flaw in its E-Business Suite | Computerworld ... (
http://bit.ly/1ypOQXq )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62800 @ 0.00045832 = 28.7825 BTC [-] {2}
punkman: "For one thing, doctors were upset because Semmelweis' hypothesis made it look like they were the ones giving childbed fever to the women. And Semmelweis was not very tactful. He publicly berated people who disagreed with him and made some influential enemies. Eventually the doctors gave up the chlorine hand-washing, and Semmelweis — he lost his job. Semmelweis kept trying to convince doctors in other parts of Europe to wash with chlorine,
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23550 @ 0.00048537 = 11.4305 BTC [+]
punkman: "1700 private jets expected to Davos in Switzerland to discuss climate change at World Economic Forum"
Vexual: 1700 private jets, fucking hell, the hipocracy
Vexual: id fly em all economy to somewhere and put em on a dying freighter
Vexual: wait, autopilot to switzerland?
punkman: irc would've been cheaper for sure
punkman: although good opportunity to pull the 500eur stacks out of the swiss deposit box
Vexual: hey, you can spend a bin laden on the train
punkman: can these people think of a single non-retarded use case?
punkman: "Meta makes you a real-life Tony Stark." - CNN
Vexual: ;;google magic leap totem racist
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68125 @ 0.00049059 = 33.4214 BTC [+] {4}
Vexual: meanwhile google is full aware the patent selss to city planners until its nearly up, then it goes into happy meals
Vexual: but as non retarded uses go, playing ar doom in the office sounds pretty good
assbot: When Science Fiction Becomes Reality: Rebuilding the Berlin Wall with Augmented Reality - SPIEGEL ONLINE ... (
http://bit.ly/1xVSLpU )
Vexual: is this why glass gied? noones got a set, so noone makes anthing?
Vexual: berlin things pretty neato
punkman: the glass tech wasn't that good imo
Vexual: was the guts in the glasses?
punkman: yeah but you needed an android to go with it
Vexual: fucked optics and 10 people had one
punkman: I wanna try the spaceglasses though
punkman: they have Steve Mann on the team, if anyone knows how these things can work, it's him
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 18 @ 0.11000002 = 1.98 BTC [-] {2}
punkman: girl tried some Oculus devkit, said it was pretty fun
Vexual: space glasses is a transparent lcd?
punkman: yeah so you can overlay stuff
Vexual: does it play office doom?
punkman: their demos are stupid though
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 49 @ 0.10427005 = 5.1092 BTC [-] {13}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 61 @ 0.10097768 = 6.1596 BTC [-] {5}
Vexual: i fthey start doing pixies in trees silk road 17 will be out of business
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14100 @ 0.00047541 = 6.7033 BTC [-]
Vexual: felipelalli> where are you from?
Vexual: any comments on this shit in ba? argentina is not far away
Vexual: nisman, im from australia
felipelalli: Vexual: 80% don't know what bitcoin is and 90% of the remaining 20% think it is a scam. Is that your question?
Vexual: not really, but good answer
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6550 @ 0.00046748 = 3.062 BTC [-]
nubbins`: so the wood guy is found to have been using stolen artwork for his engravings
nubbins`: lifted from deviant art and shutterstock
Vexual: does he carve a potato print in a slab of cedar?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14600 @ 0.00046642 = 6.8097 BTC [-]
assbot: Under Mark Karpeles bitcoin did 3,000,000%. Under VC capital, merchant adoption, bitcoin bowl it did -80%. : Bitcoin ... (
http://bit.ly/15trtRm )
Vexual: is that supposed to ba a table leg? wehre sthe table?
davout: that reddit stuff is pretty funny
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30867 @ 0.00047572 = 14.684 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Re-instated a feminist .gitignore · 743e3c0 · The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX · GitHub ... (
http://bit.ly/15ts4Tb )
Vexual: fuck im not reading all that
jurov: butbut.. you must be aware by all means that '"Logic" is years and years of Patriarchal justification — pure toxicity'
Vexual: looks like bullshit anyway
punkman: " if a single ls doesn't use up at least 50% of installed RAM then it is condoning the toxic culture of fat shaming."
jurov: ha. only trannies shall cast a look upon the beautiful visages of strong and independent womyn!!!1
jurov: um, from that follows womyn should always wear niqab in cisgendered society, no?
BingoBoingo: jurov: Logically, but they's prefer just gouging eyes to prevent looking
jurov: that isn't eye rape, too?
BingoBoingo: Or just do like the Vonnegut handicaps story
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87200 @ 0.00046254 = 40.3335 BTC [-] {2}
Vexual: banksa has little claim to the azalea, iggy, is part aboriginal
BingoBoingo: Vexual: asciilifeform linked it a while back. basically able people must wear handicaps to make everyone equal.
chetty: <BingoBoingo> Vexual: asciilifeform linked it a while back. basically able people must wear handicaps to make everyone equal.//only other solution is just kill all the handicaps
Vexual: were talking literal retards?
chetty: <<< reading various stuffs here on the great blockchain 'fix', I wonder whatever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
Vexual: they got the same guy from ironchef, with a labotomy
nubbins`: psychologically raped by visual contact?
nubbins`: BingoBoingo did you see the part where people found all the sources for his stolen clipart? :D
Vexual: you havent seen my art yet
BingoBoingo: chetty: But that goes against killing it by "fixing it" you know... in the way you kill a chanpion dog's breeding value bu fixing it
nubbins`: BingoBoingo deviantart and shutterstock (!)
Vexual: nubs now yove comissioned it, ill do something good
nubbins`: sweet. if it's rad, let's work out a trade
chetty: BingoBoingo, oh yeah maybe Gavin does need some fixin
Naphex: i'm just watching if the lil ones loose a finger :D
Naphex: those chef knives be cutting deep into 6y/o'ds lol
BingoBoingo: Naphex: I remember reading about one doing just that last season
Naphex: BingoBoingo: one thing i'd agree, its better with kids then with idiots lol
Naphex: maybe that the next thing
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62300 @ 0.00045478 = 28.3328 BTC [-] {5}
BingoBoingo: I dunno. I think there's some value in seeing how the adults "good enough to make the show" end up failing because of Dunning Krueger.
Vexual: thats how you fake pussyware
danielpbarron: i honestly can't tell if that feminist OS is meant to be serious or satire
Vexual: im pretty sure its satire
Vexual: ;;google earache my eye
BingoBoingo: Theymos doesn't get to have much of an opinion, but at least he isn't gavin.
Vexual: its up to the miners, most do small blocks, so i dont see it happening soon
felipelalli: I found a good idea make something implemented just to "wake up" after 2 years.
felipelalli: but I also found too aggressive the numbers of Gavin. And why do you guys hate Gavin?
felipelalli: Here in Brazil we still suffer with 1~5MB/s connection, depending on how the blocks increase many Brazilians and many ppl of other poor countries will be out soon.
BingoBoingo: Well, Gavin seems to want to actually kill Bitcoin with his ridiculous exponential growth stuff.
felipelalli: I guess isn't his intention, but good intention hell is paved.
BingoBoingo: There's already "startups" foaming at the mouth to use the block chain as file storage.
felipelalli: One thing I have not studied deeply, but why every node need to have all the data? Okay there enough overlap, but really all data?
jurov: felipelalli: how else you'll verify transactions?
jurov: felipelalli: one, that would prevent bootstrapping from genesis block
jurov: two, under gavins proposal, the pruned db, would grow boundlessly too
jurov: and it makes no difference with network usage. even in "rich" countries with gigabit connections, uplink is usually much slower
jurov: now i have 40/40 , but back when i had 10mbit uplink, bitcoind sometimes saturated it
jurov: when someone decided to pull blockchain from me
felipelalli: with Gavin proposal, bitcoin core should be very simplified (like an "amateur" version) connected to trusted (few?) full nodes. It can work but it affects the decentralization, is that right?
jurov: yes it's likely to end up so
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55800 @ 0.00047573 = 26.5457 BTC [+] {3}
felipelalli: only the very wealthy have this internet here in BR HUE.
nubbins`: which i think is a bit on the expensive side
Vexual: and a 5 dollar paypay?
jurov: vex has pgp key, just got downrated :)
Vexual: kako got fucked off with the niki minaj
Vexual: and his rating hold weight
Vexual: also im still learning
punkman: tails got that gpg built-in
punkman: and assbot doesn't do bitcoin keys anyway
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23600 @ 0.00047011 = 11.0946 BTC [-] {2}
Vexual: are you suggesting that if i have a pgp key n wot kako will like my occasional music?
jurov: maybe if you implement ratelimiter
Vexual: shit ive been ratelimiting for 6 months
jurov: or rather evolve one lol
Vexual: but the sydtem works, its good
jurov: he's regged under some other nick
gribble: Nick 'Vexual', with hostmask 'Vexual!~amnesia@gateway/tor-sasl/vexual', is not identified.
gribble: Error: I am not seeing this user on IRC. If you want information about a registered gpg user, try the 'gpg info' command instead.
jurov: you see, he's got it covered :)
nubbins`: ;;rate vexual 1 not of this place
gribble: Error: For identification purposes, you must be authenticated to use the rating system.
assbot: muxne is not registered in WoT.
nubbins` wanders over to kako's console and types /ignore <random nick>
Vexual: fucks the logs like ruin tho
nubbins`: what next, you gonna disable right-click on the log?
nubbins`: make it so my back button doesn't work? 8)
Vexual: he asked me nicely first, i must admit
Vexual: and i've been less than repentant
Vexual: we did decide on a rate
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6070 @ 0.00048179 = 2.9245 BTC [+]
Vexual: seems hypocritcal with forrest gump leadeing the prosecution
assbot: 4 Years in Prison for BitInstant Exchanger Who Helped Silk Road - Crypto News 24/7 – Bitcoin News ... (
http://bit.ly/1um22HG )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68800 @ 0.00048596 = 33.434 BTC [+]
Vexual: ross is prolly guilty of something, but he deserves a free trial
Vexual: the hitmet sory is admissable
Vexual: all these idiots taking a deal
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9424 @ 0.00048596 = 4.5797 BTC [+]
Vexual: they get him for malware by using malware, that should be thrown out of court right there
BingoBoingo: Well, what if they come for spider venom next?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27600 @ 0.00049642 = 13.7012 BTC [+] {2}
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: pity conformal isn't better known. << how so? ben_vulpes has referenced them a lot over the past two years. they are making me want to learn Go.
thestringpuller: ^- i wonder if this will hold precedent in making people give up private keys of any kind
BingoBoingo: The particular school district mentioned is disturbingly close.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20048 @ 0.00049009 = 9.8253 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: jesus sifting from all these offline messages left by people who believe enough in the gavincoin to want to buy it for .75 bitcoins each.
mircea_popescu: apparently they'll want to change bitcoin to gavincoin 1:1 later on, but they don't want to change it at a 25% discount today.
BingoBoingo: Maybe they aren't sure enough yet that there will be a Gavincoin given -dev doesn't seem keen on his stuff.
mircea_popescu: roughly in the position of a hunting party that's out there building sandcastles and collecting flowers.
BingoBoingo: Yeah they need to find another sporting venture, because it is perfectly fine to be a fishing party while sitting around drinking beer.
kakobrekla: 1. otc order book is dead, 2. noone is taking offer seriously, 3. everything else is delusion
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla yeah, and they all work because 4. none of these derps actually matters in bitcoin.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: nah, writing everthing in c++ is dumb. << wasn't bitcoin-qt 0.1 in Visual C++? that was even worse
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25950 @ 0.00048323 = 12.5398 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: "oh i have 50 btc in a wallet somewhere, i contributed 5000 lines of code to bitcoin core that will have to be taken out later at considerable expense and i go to all th conferences if some scammer is paying the airfare (coach)"
thestringpuller: i remember opening source code back in 2010 on my machine, and seeing everything chmod 777
BingoBoingo: I mean I have no problem with killing animals for food, but I prefer fishing to hunting because fishing has better complimentary activities you can multitask with it.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller monolitic c at least had some rationale back in 1980. but c++ is not c, and for that matter the year's not 1980 either
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i don't know any fat hunters. i know precious few slender fishermen.
thestringpuller: well anything you do in C++ you can do in C. like that song (anything you can do I can do better)
mircea_popescu: this is doubtful, but i'll let asciilifeform argue it.
thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: This is also the rationale behind a baseball game on a hot summer day. Grrr...we need to go to one this ear
mircea_popescu: yeah, totally need more adoption so the various scammers with bootstrap websites can burn more noobs.
thestringpuller: marketing design sector was told, "You need to incorporate more photography"
kakobrekla: how do they know for sure its gonna go up and how do you save if its gonna go up if you borrow now i dunno is the loan fiat based ?
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla it's btcjam : if you don't simply forget all about your website account, you can always just not pay later on.
davout: thestringpuller: i thought visual c++ was just an ide
danielpbarron: mircea_popescu> apparently they'll want to change bitcoin to gavincoin 1:1 later on, but they don't want to change it at a 25% discount today. << should better offer it at 25% over, otherwise they are admitting their coin has the lower value
danielpbarron: ok so make it, pay 1000 bitcoin today, get 750 gavincoin later; that way theirs is framed as the more valuable one
davout: ah, so it looks like c++ with a bunch of extra packages
thestringpuller: i think asciilifeform submitted patch to gut all of it out.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53866 @ 0.00049795 = 26.8226 BTC [+] {2}
nubbins`: oh my god, what if that wood collector guy illegally imports wood and Blazedout419 was working undercover with customs?!
danielpbarron: didn't WC brag about having access to illegal woods?
BingoBoingo: davout: Also different standard libraries. Microsoft Visual X language is almost always different from X proper.
davout: BingoBoingo: yeah, so a different language for all practical purposes
BingoBoingo: davout: Yeah. Even different in the most basic things, fucking iostream.h
nubbins`: i know he's not a shill and he's not a fool, but beyond that... shrug
gribble: You rated user Blazedout419 on Sun Mar 2 12:59:46 2014, with a rating of 2, and supplied these additional notes: trusted trader.
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: He's kind of anti-kako. While anything kako calls scam is scam andything Blazedout419 gravitates towards tends to burn him.
danielpbarron: he probably wanted to show off having lots of BTC to his forum buddies / that coupled with the "oh you accept bitcoin? let me shower you with undeserved business" mentality
BingoBoingo: danielpbarron: that coupled with the "oh you accept bitcoin? let me shower you with undeserved business" mentality << tends to be what burns Blazedout419
kakobrekla: maybe he was reading #b-a on how art keeps getting record high prices and battles inflation and though he was getting a piece of hedge
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: regarding paygrade << have you ever seen Inside Man?
mircea_popescu: davout i don't like so much about your blog the fact there's no clear mention of the date.
davout: mircea_popescu: "Cette entrée a été publiée dans Bitcoin le janvier 21, 2015"
mircea_popescu: i dun like so much about my eyes how they miss things :D
mircea_popescu: "The fundamental pain point here, is that Gavin insists on everyone being able to get in, instead of allowing a sane transaction fee market to emerge, by letting the blocks actually fill-up."
davout: it's true it's not very clear though, being at the bottom
mircea_popescu: here's the thing : the vc circus has created an entire culture of these idiots. "grow fast make no money sell out"
mircea_popescu: maybe this has merits as a website develoipment paradigm
davout: also "le janvier 21, 2015" isn't correct french :/
mircea_popescu: it CERTAINLY has no value as a bitcoin development paradigm, because well... BITCOIN IS NOT FOR SALE.
davout: thestringpuller: what's snowpiercer?
mircea_popescu: not in the sense where some vcs come on later, pat us on the head, give each a car and wipe us out.
nubbins`: THE LAST SURVIVING HUMANS ARE STUCK ON A TRAIN THAT NEVER STOPS
chetty repeats self "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
nubbins`: interestingly, they choose to waste their fuel on locomotion rather than as a heat source
nubbins`: because if all that's left is a train, you better believe we're gonna make it run!
mircea_popescu: "<gavinandresen> Ah— so you’re saying we should decrease the 1MB limit, so there are higher fees and miners make more money?"
mircea_popescu: "i want to tear down this wall". "why ?" "it opresses me". "the wall keeps the outside out" "OH SO YOU ARE SAYING WE SHOULD PUSH IT FURTYHER IN ?"
mircea_popescu: you are ill qualified to as much as change a fucking version in the bvlocks, let alone the database.
mircea_popescu: stop pretending like you can push walls around and go take your ritalin.
mats: an idiot's guide to opsec.
mircea_popescu: davout "Votre commentaire est en attente de validation." lmao.
davout: c'est pourtant du français correct :)
davout: this is actually lulzier -> "Fièrement propulsé par WordPress"
davout: "Proudly propelled by wordpress"
davout: i guess the translator ran it by several actual frenchologists
thestringpuller: gotta make sure french language stays pure against all the hoodlums and their slang
davout: actually the people from Québec might be even more hardcore protectors of french purity than the people from france
davout: their accent and some of their expressions are extremely cute tho
davout: mircea_popescu: dunno, didn't do it myself, figured it'd be too good for them and get downvoted anyway
davout: thestringpuller: ty, let's see how that goes
davout: thestringpuller: also link?
mircea_popescu: davout yeah but why should you be spared the sort of idiocy living there.
mircea_popescu: seems kinda bizarre gavin still pretends like he's had a public discussion about this but so far has not quite got his courage up enough to bring his hairball of non sequiturs, wild jumps and logic holes over here.
davout: mircea_popescu: private, he pm'd me on btctalk after seeing me comment on the fork off thread
mircea_popescu: well, tell him he has a chance to be heard, and learn exactly why he is wrong and generally grow as a person.
mircea_popescu: there's two kind of idiots in this world : the retrograde, and the paygrade.
mircea_popescu: "I’m waiting for somebody to notice us greedy early adopters get a free ride on transaction fees and complain....."
mircea_popescu: that's what "free ride" is now. having built value over time is a "free ride"
mircea_popescu: hey gavin ? YOU ARE GETTING A FREE RIDE. you're pretty much the only one. you're a middling software engineer that is STILL leeching some historical happenstance.,
mircea_popescu: nothing about your own intellect, experience, competence or otherwise merit justifies me even knowing your fucking name. you're nobody in the plainest sense, i can throw a rock in any town in america and probably hit two of you!
davout: "if you want to come in #bitcoin-assets and argue a bit your proposal, a bunch of folks would be interested" <<< let's see how that goes
davout: "can’t right now, have a lunch meeting. Happy to another time"
davout: 3 hour lunch? what are you? french?
chetty: 3 hours is a short quick lunch in Argentina
davout: "gonna get me some subway, see you tomorrow"
davout: the perfect duration for a meal is when the end of the previous one overlaps with the beginning of the next one
davout: thestringpuller: yes they do, but they love it
mike_c: hmm.. "<sipa> justanotheruser: but control of coins != ownership of coins"
mike_c: bitcoin-dev is confused about some things.
mike_c: i suppose his point is along the lines of "mpex controls the coins it is holding, but account holders own them".
mike_c: which isn't really true. and the fact of that will become interesting when mpex takes a side on the hard-fork.
undata: mike_c: it's that watered down socialist meaning of "own" where it's abstract, not "this is under my control"
undata: no, the bank and state do
diametric: trying to figure out why assbot can't find my key on mit.pgp.edu.
kakobrekla: does it take like while before it says it cant find it ?
diametric: it instantly says it can't find it
kakobrekla: try in 30 min will you, and if it doenst work then ill do it manually or smth
kakobrekla: i noticed when i was coding that keyservers tend to go down a lot
davout: "Gavin's patience. Wow."
davout: "that's the main thing i'm constantly impressed by, his demeanor is exactly right for the position he's in. he's a role model to us all, a modern day gandhi so to speak. ;)"
BingoBoingo: And like Ghandi he will try to ruin a good thing.
davout: "You are 100000% correct. It's funny how easy it is to spot a statist who thinks everything should be controlled instead of letting the market do its job."
diametric: tried doing it myself again, came back saying it can't find my fingerprint.
diametric: nubbins`: I've thoroughly enjoyed the woodcollector posts.
nubbins`: tyvm, glad you finally got an account ;D
diametric: nubbins`: are you actually going to post a video to prove a point to one of his shills/
gavinandresen: I came here so you can tell me how I’m going to ruin bitcoin (again…)
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 21-01-2015 16:54:23; mircea_popescu: ima be back in ~3 hours.
felipelalli: gavinandresen: when was the first time that you have "ruined" bitcoin?
gavinandresen: felipelalli: when we did BIP16 to make multisig wallets easy to deploy
gavinandresen: … that was a soft fork, not a hard fork, but it still caused people to accuse me of trying to destroy Bitcoin
davout: felipelalli: that was a soft fork
ben_vulpes: is a soft fork not a breaking of bitcoin in some way?
gavinandresen: a soft fork means miners must upgrade, or their blocks will be rejected.
☟︎ kakobrekla: ben_vulpes for drama you need GA and MP present at same time.
gavinandresen: a hard fork means everybody running a full node must upgrade, or they will be on a different chain
☟︎ davout: ben_vulpes: a soft fork is making the set of valid blocks smaller, a hard fork is the opposite
gavinandresen: MP will bring all the drama :-) I try hard to be drama-free.
gavinandresen: ben_vulpes: yes; a soft fork makes the protocol more strict. You have to hard fork to make it more lenient.
felipelalli: davout: nice explanation. It gives a good article in qntra.net
ben_vulpes: well i can tell you right now there is zero support around here for changing the protocol in any way.
felipelalli: increase the 21M max coins is possible through a hard fork?
ben_vulpes: not wherever you people get together and wank about "innovation" in the blockchain
gavinandresen: okey dokey, then we might not have much to talk about if you want to stick with OpenSSL bugs that were included in the protocol by mistake.
ben_vulpes: the topic under discussion is the moronic megablock shit, not signature rules.
ben_vulpes: "oh look we're also talking about improving things over there so you may as well roll over on the megablocks issue"
felipelalli: gavinandresen: theymos said: << (...) Make the change now, but have it take place at a particular date or block number 2 years in the future. Then when the change actually happens, everyone will already be updated because almost no one uses 2-year-old software. Yes, 2 years is a long time, but we'll survive. >> is that possible and why it is a good or bad idea?
gavinandresen: felipelalli: that’d be a fine way to roll out the change; I think gmaxwell and sipa prefer that plan.
kakobrekla: that like "dont worry we have 2 years to 'fight'" and then "o shit did we miss it?" 2 years later.
felipelalli: gavinandresen: do you prefer different? If yes, why?
davout: gavinandresen: "okey dokey, then we might not have much to talk about if you want to stick with OpenSSL bugs that were included in the protocol by mistake." <<< actually i distinctly remember mike hearn telling me how that particular bug was part of the protocol and how it somehow justified not putting any effort towards actually specifying anything, in a spec, not in code
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.felipelalli.-1:d220de3c0270b6e3f3f923fa6dbfd6daa164792bb1919eccdca66d6aedf87c4c
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for felipelalli with note: snr penalty
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64000 @ 0.00047807 = 30.5965 BTC [-] {2}
davout: that escalated rather quickly
ben_vulpes: in any event, gavinandresen, there'll be no more forks from you. you blew it back in the day, and you lost the initiative on this one months ago.
Pierre_Rochard: my main disagreement is on the economics side, you say “ Limit the number of transactions that can happen on the Bitcoin blockchain, and instead of paying higher fees people will perform their transactions somewhere else.”
☟︎ Pierre_Rochard: My response to that is two-fold: if maximizing revenue to miners is our goal, then shifting marginal demand to substitutes is fine.
ben_vulpes: there is only bitcoin, and if one cannot afford the miners fees for inclusion in a block, one does not need to transfer bitcoins enough.
Pierre_Rochard: Second, there is distance between the total transaction costs of Bitcoin vs the substitutes. So there’s inelasticity in demand
Pierre_Rochard: So here’s my hypothesis: if we allow the network to hit the block size limit, then we’ll see the transaction fee revenue growth *accelerate*, up until the point that substitution begins happening in earnest, then the fee revenue growth will *decelerate* or stall.
ben_vulpes: let's at least hit the steady state behavior before starting to diddle with important economic variables like block size.
davout: Pierre_Rochard: shut up and stop making so much sense
Pierre_Rochard: that would indicate that demand is inelastic, and it would tell us where the upper bound on bitcoin tx fees roughly is
ben_vulpes: yeah, and again we're at the "snapshot of a dynamic thing
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [] nah, writing everything in c++ is dumb. << write it in every language, discover interesting bugs.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I think you’re confusing the limit miners self-impose with the hard-coded upper limit
Pierre_Rochard: Now this part may be controversial for some members of b-a, but it’s at the point where fee revenue growth decelerates that the block size should be increased *marginally*, if the goal is to maximize fee revenue
davout: gavinandresen: why would miners impose a self limit?
gavinandresen: davout: today, because bigger blocks take a while to propagate.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I think the limit that miners self-impose would not hold. I think we see that today
ben_vulpes: Pierre_Rochard: you assume some kind of "goal", and that there's a "we" with it.
davout: isn't there a plan to make block propagation O(1) by using headers-first?
gavinandresen: davout: when that is fixed by protocol changes, they will have some minimum costs to processing transations plus a little profit
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62448 @ 0.00048429 = 30.2429 BTC [+] {2}
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: see my technical roadmap post for what needs to be done to increase number of full nodes
davout: gavinandresen: you're not really answering the question regarding headers-first
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: if there are no network protocol changes, then we’re in trouble, because number of full nodes may continue to decline
gavinandresen: davout: sorry, missed, the question, real-world distraction…
gavinandresen: davout: oh, the IBLT stuff? yes, that’d make propagation O(1), and that’s what I mean when I say “when that is fixed by protocol changes"
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: storage is not the bottleneck/cost, bandwidth is.
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: again, go read the technical road map post, section on pruning the chain
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: if Satoshi hadn’t slapped on a 1MB blocksize limit, would you be lobbying for a hardfork now to impose one?
☟︎ gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: ok, exactly what would you propose?
ben_vulpes: we are not considering counterfactuals.
artifexd: Yeah. I found the article through my own education. I wanted to see if it had already been discussed in here.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: that we don’t increase the limit until we see what happens to total fee revenue growth after a few months of full blocks
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: the 0.10 release’s wallet code includes floating fees, so over the next couple months we should get a much better idea of what is happening fee-wise.
Pierre_Rochard: then let’s stay there for six months to collect the data
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: the notion that the wallet code should be responsible for setting fees is utter braindamage.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: what information will we get that will influence how large to make blocks?
ben_vulpes: in fact the entire wallet model is completely broken.
ben_vulpes: the moronic quest to make the thing occupy as little space on disk as possible precluded you people from selecting a queryable db
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: … I misstated: that will influence the maximum possible block size....
ben_vulpes: and so, you had to track "relevant transactions" in the wallet.
gavinandresen: ben_vulpes: “patches welcome” Alex Morcos has a patch pending with better fee estimation code.
ben_vulpes: then you got hosed with the whole "change address" debacle.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: fee revenue growth, if it accelerates then demand for btc transactions is relatively inelastic, the point at which it declerates indicates where substitution starts happening. If it’s right away, then you’re right on the economics. If its after a period of faster growth, then we can see what bitcoin transaction fee the market will bear before switching to substitutes
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: i'm pointing out that the only acceptable patch for wallets is total removal.
ben_vulpes: and our stake in the ground (0.5.3) is our indictment of everything that your people have done for the past umpteen months.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: but why would we want to hit the “then substitutes start happening” when we’re in Bitcoin’s infancy?
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: and we have the guns, coin and code on our side.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: Seems to me it is better to do everything we can to encourage widespread adoption right now.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: because the substitution would just be happening at the margin
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: adoption is for the masses. i don't give a single fuck about the masses. bitcoin is not for them now, nor will it ever be.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: But we’d get probably at least six months, maybe a year or two of substitution because it takes time to roll out a hard forking change
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I think Bitcoin’s overall value proposition is so overwhelming that what’s hampering Bitcoin adoption is not tx fees, it’s just the Lindy effect of it being around long enough
ben_vulpes: want to talk about what's hampering adoption?
ben_vulpes: stale wallet backups that your asshats are responsible for.
ben_vulpes: non deterministic transaction generation.
ben_vulpes: and you insist on "adding features" instead of fixing your mistakes.
gavinandresen: Anybody be offended if I ignore ben_vulpes? distracting me….
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: then we see an acceleration of adoption of an altcoin / altcoins in general and react accordingly
ben_vulpes: don't address any of the *only valid points* being made here.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: But you just said you want to let fees go up high enough so, at the margin, some people ARE turned away.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: that’s right, that’s the signal to increase the block size limit
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: So, lets say we do see fees rise. How far do we let them rise? Who decides?
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: you cannot construct this conversation on the foundation of fees. you cannot possibly know how fees will behave in steady state or in perpetually inflating block size state.
ben_vulpes: you've lost all support for these large blocks in -dev
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: at some point they stop rising because they’re too high for the marginal transactor
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: substitutes for Bitcoin are altcoins, sidechains, off-chain transactions, credit cards, wire transfers…..
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: in theory the miners would decide, in practice the core devs
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: unfortunately, the experience for the marginal transactor is terrible: their transactions just never, ever confirm. Their coins get tied up…
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: if wallets could deal with that I’d be more open to running the experiment, although I still think it is a terrible idea to shut out ANY reasonable use cases at this early stage of Bitocn’s life
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen: nobody who matters gives a shit about the marginal user.
ben_vulpes: and their transactions *don't* get tied up forever.
ben_vulpes: eventually they mature and are prioritized.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: You started with a premise that I reject, by the way: I do not believe that a goal should be to maximize miner revenue
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I believe the goal should be to maximize the value of Bitcoin for everybody
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I think that our disagreement on that premise precludes agreeing on anything downstream of that
ben_vulpes: <gavinandresen> Pierre_Rochard: I believe the goal should be to maximize the value of Bitcoin for everybody << you're fired.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: you’re probably right. Are you a miner yourself?
assbot: Logged on 11-01-2015 22:33:39; kakobrekla: how do other envision the future when reward goes towards 0. either a btc is worth half a planet or the fees amount per block go up a few orders of magnitude or network is dead
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I am not. I just see a “too low” long term hash rate as the greatest risk of ruin Bitcoin faces, and it ought to be minimized before all other considerations
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: what do you think of my argument that hash rate and fees are apples and oranges? That people will substitute away from fee-paying transactions to other solutions that use the block chain, which means trying to maximize fees means no guarantee that there will be enough hash rate to secure the chain?
gavinandresen: not altcoins— centralized services like Coinbase. Or sidechains.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2500 @ 0.00049015 = 1.2254 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: coinbase and the like can be *poof* gone in one day
kakobrekla: too slow i am, this cake is hindering me
lobbes: gavinandresen: Why are you so set on this 'widespread' adoption notion? It is never going to happen
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: If I understand your argument correctly, you’re saying that the elasticity of demand is so great that fee maximization will be insufficient anyway, so try finding another solution now. That’s a pretty good argument, I think we should see what happens to fee revenue growth to validate it. If, say, the average fee goes up to 0.0004 btc and doesn’t budge from there, but anecdotally we hear that
Pierre_Rochard: off-blockchain transactions are taking off, then your argument will have won the day
lobbes: as others have stated; bitcoin is not meant for the 'masses'
ben_vulpes: lobbes: tell him who said it, he's ignoring me.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: but my intuition tells me such substitution won’t happen at such a low fee
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: this is why you kept getting sucked into arguing with Robert Viragh over plainly stupid shit.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: ok. I’d like to brainstorm more about how you would set the maximum block size— I don’t want the developers setting it every two months, but I dont’ see a way to make fee revenue per block drive it (because the real-world bitcoin exchange rate is so variable)
davout: gavinandresen: "oh, the IBLT stuff? yes, that’d make propagation O(1)" <<< so with that, there's no network bottleneck anymore, at least no real incentive for miners to keep blocks small, right?
ben_vulpes: !rate gavinandresen -5 broke bitcoin in too many ways to mention. inquire within.
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.gavinandresen.-5:1b1cb1a93eadfd534bec6d5cdc3328d057c6baa2e6e97b7bfa34e5157384cc73
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -5 for gavinandresen with note: broke bitcoin in too many ways to mention. inquire within.
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: ok, answers to your questions: I don’t know how many need to implode. And I don’t know what kind of brain damage.
gavinandresen: davout: Miners would only have the meta-incentive of “we can collectively maximize revenue if we make blocks THIS big”
gavinandresen: davout: I have no idea if the would cooperate enough to make that happen.
davout: gavinandresen: i'm completely with ben_vulpes "the notion that the wallet code should be responsible for setting fees is utter braindamage." on one hand it's not the wallet responsibility, and on the other hand that has nothing to do with the protocol
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: it's just a basic blood pressure/cortisol reduction measure
davout: gavinandresen: “patches welcome" <<< i don't use your wallet tbh
gavinandresen: davout: great! your wallet can do whatever it likes with respect to fees.
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: the only way I see is to regularly test at what tx fee the substitution begins happening, and increase it at the margin (say 20%) whenever the top percentile of fees starts hitting it. Yes, that would involve perhaps semi-annual block size limit increases and an element of judgement. I still see it as a better solution than a much-too-high limit or a contrived algorithm
Pierre_Rochard: increase it at the margin (say 20%) < increase the block size limit
gribble: Current Blocks: 339942 | Current Difficulty: 4.397166205608958E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 340703 | Next Difficulty In: 761 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 13 hours, 18 minutes, and 49 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 42292830486.1 | Estimated Percent Change: -3.81799
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: huh? a sidechain to which you transfer BTC value would be a non-fraudulent substitite.
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: can you define “much too high limit” ?
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: one where there is no competition among transactors to get into a block
undata: right, one would have to reach that state to know
Pierre_Rochard: that is, competition that would at least attempt to maximize transaction fee revenue
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: fee revenue measured in real prices, yes?
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: … because driving up real Bitcoin prices is why I think we should do everything possible to encourage widespread adoption
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: that’s actually a very interesting question because we currently live in a world where miner liabilities are in fiat prices, but in the future that may not be the case.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: what even is a sidechain?
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: I don’t want to rescue anybody, I want as many people as possible to Get the Bitcoin Religion! Can I have an AMEN?
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: right, that goes back to bitcoin’s adoption relative to other altcoins. when we see a divergence then we know there’s substitution going on
gavinandresen: Pierre_Rochard: I think if you went to a VC with a business plan of “We’re going to raise prices until we start losing customers” the VC would tell you that is a huge mistake if you’re a high-growth thing-a-ma-bob
gavinandresen: asciilifeform: I’ll use <just joking> tags next time
ben_vulpes: <gavinandresen> asciilifeform: I don’t want to rescue anybody, I want as many people as possible to Get the Bitcoin Religion! Can I have an AMEN? << good fucking god
xanthyos: the bible warned us about you gavinandresen
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen: I agree, but in this case I think Bitcoin’s competitive advantage is 100x, and transaction fees are a relatively small part of that, so if they were $0.50 instead of $0.05, adoption rate would decrease by let’s say 0.01%.
ben_vulpes: gavinandresen is clearly unfamiliar with the pricing model of every luxury good ever.
gavinandresen: Ok, if y’all are interested in keeping Bitcoin an exclusive little club… then okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go.
Pierre_Rochard: so it’s immaterial, yet that transaction fee revenue is super-important for the customers to know, long term this is a viable enterprise that can sustain itself
lobbes: all you have to do is look at bitcointalk.org to see that getting clueless people involved for the sake of 'because' just leads to more scamming, and more ignorance
danielpbarron: gavinandresen, what did satoshi write in the very first block??
gavinandresen: I’ve gotta go. Pierre_Rochard, nice chatting with you.
mod6: bailiff, bring the witness back to the witness stand
davout: such convo, much mess, very lol
Pierre_Rochard: gavinandresen is clearly unfamiliar with the pricing model of every luxury good ever. < this
Pierre_Rochard: Bitcoin is a ferrari being sold for $10. Increasing the price to $100 will not deter buyers
kakobrekla: the thing is he sees silly-con valley and think the ways of VS are go.
davout: "so far I’m not impressed with the quality of the conversation in #bitcoin-assets....."
kakobrekla: not in the quality sense but quantity.
Pierre_Rochard: well if he disagrees on the premise that being fort knox is more important than being a rural walmart then there’s not much to discuss
mod6: davout asked him to come here so he could 'chat' with mp
jurov: he's genuinely believing bitcoin needs to be here for every man, woman and child
diametric: kakobrekla: no luck, still saying it can't find my fingerprint.
davout: i would've loved seeing him actually elaborate on asciilifeform's questions
Pierre_Rochard: not to mention, the transaction fee _today_ is $0.02. Where is every man woman and child? Why are they not taking advantage of this amazing opportunity??
Pierre_Rochard: clearly there are much more important factors to adoption than the transaction fee
punkman: need more bitcoin bowl ads!
Pierre_Rochard: asciilifeform: why did he not announce that last night? why does he hate the middle class so?
davout: the idea that there exists somewhere a magical bitcoin alternative, suffering from none of its shortcomings, towards which everyone would flow is retarded
Pierre_Rochard: davout: I agree, the moat between bitcoin and the “substitutes” is _enormous_
Pierre_Rochard: asciilifeform: preaching to the choir, but a “substitute” in the economic term is the opposite of a “complement”, not something you necessarily consider on equal footing
chetty: its ok, they can just pass a law to change the maths to what they like
chetty: (all you have to do to make such a law work is send the gasenwagen for anybody that knows any maths)
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:10; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: remember the story about gorby and andropov?
assbot: Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:29; asciilifeform: g: 'show me the real budget.' a: 'you're asking too much. that's off limits to you.'
diametric: for some real reason it wasn't importing it for the first time correctly, kakobrekla had to manually import it
davout: diametric: this new assbot is a total scam
ben_vulpes: it's downright suspect that mircea_popescu goes to lunch and gavinandresen shows up
davout: ben_vulpes: it's downright suspect that it took you so long to come to this conclusion
ben_vulpes: trying desperately to eke out food credits over here
ben_vulpes: my new title is going to be "systems and app store submission engineer"
ben_vulpes: xcode "code signing" is hilariously opaque
ben_vulpes: who wants to "fix issues" related to keys?
davout: ben_vulpes: my worst nightmares are those i'm forced to use xcode
ben_vulpes: kakobrekla: apples proprietary "integrated development environment" for "objective c"
davout: kakobrekla: the IDE where folders don't actually create folders on disk
davout: thestringpuller: s/gcc/llvm/
davout: it's a fucking symlink
thestringpuller: Configured with: --prefix=/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/usr --with-gxx-include-dir=/usr/include/c++/4.2.1
thestringpuller: Apple LLVM version 6.0 (clang-600.0.56) (based on LLVM 3.5svn)
davout: "you want to organize your code with folders? fuck you, i'll store them randomly and index them in some massive xml turd"
davout: "you want to track your code on git and code with other folks? fuck you, i'll make this massive xml piece of shit completely unmergeable"
davout: thestringpuller: yeah. needless to say the experience was short.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: "would you like a mac or win machine?" "You mean which two bowls of shit would I like to eat?"
ben_vulpes: davout: oh yeah don't use the layout engine
kakobrekla: you guys dont survive without apple turds?
thestringpuller: davout: at what point does this ruby thing start to grow on me?
ben_vulpes: i derp through apple's code signing shitshow so that they can focus on writing moar softs
davout: thestringpuller: i don't know man, who am i to know your personal tastes? :-)
ben_vulpes: <ben_vulpes> my new title is going to be "systems and app store submission engineer" << asciilifeform
davout: thestringpuller: what are you using it for?
davout: thestringpuller: ruby can be extremly confusing, especially if you use some weird proprietary dsl someone forces on you
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: i also unload the dishwasher in the morning and turn the lights off at night.
thestringpuller: davout: i'm using it for web apps at work. not really a web stack developer, but it's not as bad as php but still doesn't taste good.
STRML: I echo your frustration with ruby. It's a nightmare trying to figure out some obscure part of the capistrano or chef DSLs
STRML: all the confusion and unfamiliarity of a new programming language without any of the benefits
thestringpuller: it's easier to debug, but so is python in the same context I guess?
davout: STRML: yeah, dsl's can be a massive pain
STRML: I'm sure they were meant to make things easier but it never quite ends up that way
davout: thestringpuller: i don't really know python so i can't really comment
STRML: python is nice to debug... java too
davout: ben_vulpes: how do you know?
STRML: even JS isn't so bad to debug. better than php
davout: STRML: dsl's get much much easier when you're proficient with the language
davout: thestringpuller: what framework are you using?
ben_vulpes: davout: well i've written java, i've written ruby, and i've had extensive interactions with the relevant "communities" (although only my local java "community")
davout: ben_vulpes: i meant "how do you know about my haricut?"
davout: MAH HARICUT IS SIKRIT BZNS
ben_vulpes: lol well rubby haircuts are normally done by the hair wearer
davout: thestringpuller: i like sinatra, it's real simple, and there's very little magic
davout: i kind of dislike rails, too fat, too clunky, unless you have something that really fits the rest paradigm
STRML: BingoBoingo: Thanks
davout: thestringpuller: i really like eventmachine
assbot: And Gavin moves on to the dark side. The Bitcoin project is officially hijacked pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... (
http://bit.ly/1yI2YM2 )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43315 @ 0.00049152 = 21.2902 BTC [+] {2}
davout: justusranvier: in your article you shouldn't be reasoning on the cost of including a transaction in a block as (cost of one block / number of transactions) but you should reason on the marginal cost of adding a transaction to an already existing block that i'm currently mining
davout: also you can't really have the market price according to supply and demand when the supply's pretty much infinite for all practical purposes
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81000 @ 0.00050193 = 40.6563 BTC [+]
davout: thestringpuller: i'm not really such an electronic music guy
davout: i liked daft punk's first albums tho
davout: i'm more of classical music and jazz guy
davout: last 'electronic' music i got into was birdy nam nam
thestringpuller: All kinds everything from Oscar Peterson, Art Tatum, Dave Brubeck, Dizzy, Coltrane.
davout: thestringpuller: i'm grabbing you something
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: you missed all the fun
davout: mircea_popescu: lol yes
mircea_popescu: haha wait, soi he had a lunch meeting except once i also had one his was cancelled ?
mircea_popescu: a well. i guess bravery is not a silicon valley virtue.
davout: thestringpuller: sinatra cover by biréli lagrène
davout: justusranvier: especially considering that block propagation is soon to be O(1)
mircea_popescu: punkman: "For one thing, doctors were upset because Semmelweis' hypothesis << yup that's a recurring topic here.
thestringpuller: i figured it out! gavinandresen and mircea_popescu are the same person!
assbot: Logged on 21-01-2015 01:56:34; mircea_popescu: right about at the time they tarred and feathered that asinine idiot who said they should wash hands
thestringpuller: open and shut case johnson, sprinkle some crack on him and lets get out of here
jurov: they happen to be in two rooms at the same time
jurov: or mircea is capable of bilocation?
jurov: hope he reaps his zombies
davout: jurov: he keeps bragging about bicopulation
mircea_popescu: davout bicopulation is what that deer in the middle's doin'. ain't me!
jurov: sorry mircea, davout coined it first
BingoBoingo: devthedev: What is this about the head of 'Muricas other socialist party opening session with an Islamic prayer?
mircea_popescu: punkman: their demos are stupid though << yeah they had no idea how to sell that thing.
mircea_popescu: nubbins`: lifted from deviant art and shutterstock << are the da starving artists going to get a cut of the 14k ?
mircea_popescu: assbot: Under Mark Karpeles bitcoin did 3,000,000%. Under VC capital, merchant adoption, bitcoin bowl it did -80%. : Bitcoin << that post has a core of point in it. if it weren't wrapped in redditard retardation / karpeles bs, it'd almost be worth making.
kakobrekla: myea bitpay would do better if they just deleted their wallet
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, VCs have been doing appalingly poorly in bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: mostly because bitcoin does not reward their "get big fast" pump and dump scam.
mircea_popescu: maybe it's time they fold and just take their subervient place in the ecosystem ?
BingoBoingo: Well generally they tend to raise dollars and burn them. Or in BitPay's case start with Bitcoins and then burn those.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with humility if pride just means you lose money.
thestringpuller: i don't think they are allowed to hold btc as assets, i dunno.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this assumes they are what they claim to be.
BingoBoingo: thestringpuller: Well ESPN says they paid ESPN in BTC
mircea_popescu: not a matter of chumpness tho. suppose dude rings your doorbell dressed as a car mechanic. "yes ?" "hello i'm the pizza delivery". "you don't seem to have any pizza ?" "ha-ha! fooled you! i'm only SAYING im pizza delivery"
davout: thestringpuller: why wouldn't they be?
thestringpuller: BingoBoingo: yea but from what I can gather (i am no expert), would be written as an expense
thestringpuller: as all their liabilities are covered as fiat, so I assume assets are handled sameway
mircea_popescu: assbot: The-Feminist-Software-Foundation/ToleranUX << lmao this shit better be parodic.
thestringpuller: there's a lot wrong there, but my theory is VC's won't let them hold btc like other btc companies
davout: mircea_popescu thestringpuller the accountant can account for the value paymium's coin in whatever fiat he fancies, he can go fuck himself before we sell it
mircea_popescu: davout have you spent any time in teh us corporate environment ?
mircea_popescu: because it is a sort of insanity that can not readily be grasped from outside.
thestringpuller: davout: yea. p. much. Then VC comes in and says, "You may have this much btc on book at anytime" or I guess CFO or whatever. I dunno, I'm not an accountant.
davout: thestringpuller: i have already heard that from potential investors, these were shown the door
davout: WAI U NO WANT BTC IF U WANT INVEST IN BTC CORP
devthedev: BingoBoingo: What is this about the head of 'Muricas other socialist party opening session with an Islamic prayer? << It makes my stomach turn
davout: thestringpuller: yes it does, i have heard that kind of bullshit first hand
BingoBoingo: devthedev: Well you spotted it, you can tell the story...
mircea_popescu: davout there's a large chunk of facetious asshats who hate bitcoin just as much as the next guy whose unearned position it threatens. but they figure they get further with a spoonfull of honey than a barrel of vinegar, and so will make this sort of claim.
BingoBoingo: What did the leader of America's other Socialist party do?
Adlai had a big tussle with a business associate about his (the other guy's) emphasis on "pitching bitcoin" to investors
mircea_popescu: that they're "investing", that they wiosh to "drive adoption", that generally they're only trying to help.
Adlai: whereas my stance was that not pitching bitcoin filters out the people to whom bitcoin needs to be pitched
mircea_popescu: they're trivially identified in the field by the shockingly unhelpful nature of their helpings,
mircea_popescu: and by the incredible tenacity they put into keeping it that way'
devthedev: John Boehner opened a house session with a prayer to Allah.
mircea_popescu: point in case of this matter, once gavin is questioned as to why exactly he wants to do x, and he immediately and seamlessly moves into "oh, so what's the right value, so you want to do X' ??" it is clear that he is not in fact interested in what he claims to discuss
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: this gives me the impression that...maybe this is bitpay's handlers driving this nonsense
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform subtlety is expensive. political competence especially so.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: i was telling a friend the other night that the CIA/FBI acts as the USG mafia, but won't admit to being the mafia. Whereas KGB/Soviets said, "Yea we're the mob, watcha gonna do about it?"
mircea_popescu: the theoretical theory was that "Bitcoin is all nerds anyway" and so any old junk should stick.,
mircea_popescu: chetty: <<< reading various stuffs here on the great blockchain 'fix', I wonder whatever happened to "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" <<< "everyone wants to be a developer" happened. and "everyone should get what they want" also happened.
mircea_popescu: felipelalli: but I also found too aggressive the numbers of Gavin. And why do you guys hate Gavin? << you will benefit from reading the logs, also googling "site:trilema.com gavin" might help.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform where by 20th c state we mean, one of those insane constructions where everyone is equal.
davout: asciilifeform: pardon my ignorance, but who is mr spam?
mircea_popescu: and yes, a socialist state can only be run as a prison or as an insane asylum. because socialism is insanity.
Adlai: davout: ninjashogun
davout: that's a high amount of ninjashogun
mircea_popescu: jurov: now i have 40/40 , but back when i had 10mbit uplink, bitcoind sometimes saturated it << this is an universal experience.
mircea_popescu: i have what the dorks refer to "Fat pipes" on a number of nodes and they still get saturated on occasion.
Adlai: my main problem with "mr spam" was the high stock he placed in ideas
Adlai: ideas are worthless, execution is what matters
kakobrekla: shut up my idea does not require execution
Adlai: yes, but keeping an idea secret doesn't prevent somebody else from executing it better than you, while you sit around trying to get people to invest in something you haven't explained to them
BingoBoingo: alf handcarves exquisite reliefs as he shapes traffic
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it just has to do with, if a bunch of nodes wake up and find you...
Adlai: mircea_popescu: eta on D.CTIP?
Adlai: they require you to price withdrawals in dollars
Adlai: this is retardation to a new level
Adlai: but when you withdraw bitcoin, on the bitcoin network, you have to specify the amount in dollars
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Believe it or not it got a VC round, raised money
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75500 @ 0.00050243 = 37.9335 BTC [+] {2}
kakobrekla: ah yes they plunked 10mio to buttstamp.
mircea_popescu: at this point listing them on mpex should yield what, 25% of equity. because it'd definitely increase their market value by that much.
Adlai: it's just baffling how people invest in this
BingoBoingo: Wait, Buttstamp isn't even 3 full changetips?
Adlai: a penny pushing social media spamhaus with no business plan is almost half an exchange?
mircea_popescu: Adlai the exchange has no margin in an indefensible market and makes no money.
diametric: nubbins`: so i'm being led to believe you can produce wood t-shirts for me now, hand carved no less.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the 2nd is particularly pernicious because of the "good enough" approach. "what do you mean bitcoin transactions can't be used to identify anything ? here's a list of derps we know for a fact, they're 50% of the blockchain spam"
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> asciilifeform the 2nd is particularly pernicious because of the "good enough" approach. "what do you mean bitcoin transactions can't be used to identify anything ? here's a list of derps we know for a fact, they're 50% of the blockchain spam" << Reasons to never use a public Electrum server for people wondering about "Lite" wallets.
mircea_popescu: reason to not "drive adoption" to idiots / poor people / etc.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: pity conformal isn't better known. << how so? << they did all sorts of things for "the community" to be able to use their own stuff, which the community isn't doing because... well i guess more because lazy and stupid, but hey.
ben_vulpes: <BingoBoingo> thestringpuller: Well ESPN says they paid ESPN in BTC << i thought it was a promise to pay in btc, the paper for which ESPN liquidated immediately
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 4260 @ 0.00080694 = 3.4376 BTC [+] {9}
mircea_popescu: yeah derp claimed he can't come because he's got a lunch engagement, then found out that so do i so he suddenly could.
Adlai is impressed that gavin showed up here, but also a little puzzled - did anybody think anybody else's opinion would change?
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Why do you have to highlight the shortcut that was almost certainly taken
ben_vulpes: he has to show. has to "try to talk sense into -assets"
Adlai: my new favorite word, after btcmiami, is "signaling"
mircea_popescu: guy saw an opportunity to check off thisparticular thing without actually doing it, and took it.
mircea_popescu: it speaks volumes as to his own perceived value of his own "opinions" which he doesn;'t actually hold.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3590 @ 0.00082 = 2.9438 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: however, it only speaks volumes to those capable to listen.
Adlai: btcmiami was all a huge signal: "look at us, we're so successful, we can sponsor all of this!"
Adlai: "come make us able to sponsor the next one too!("
mircea_popescu: "we're so smart, we even got the dean of the cyprus uni to come!"
mircea_popescu: now that guy doesn't know how to erase his name from the mess.
mircea_popescu: exact same thing, in this exact same chan, three years ago. nefario was all "oh, we're so smart we got stallman to come"
mircea_popescu: ne1 else recall the glbse conference where nefario explained all about how he's immune to stuff two weeks before closing down ?
Naphex: ben_vulpes: heard you got ignored by gavin for distracting him ;)
ben_vulpes: Naphex: distracting << lol. not pandering, do you mean?
ben_vulpes: asking questions faster than his tiny brain and crippled fingers can keep up?
BingoBoingo: The video and Nefario rambling is somewhere
Adlai: more like "must read"
Adlai: although i guess that's another one of the lost arts
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39300 @ 0.00050299 = 19.7675 BTC [+] {2}
gribble: nefario was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 years, 17 weeks, 0 days, 2 hours, 14 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <nefario> Those assets are not listed or traded anymore
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6489 @ 0.00050313 = 3.2648 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: mike_c: i suppose his point is along the lines of "mpex controls the coins it is holding, but account holders own them". << quite a weak point.
mircea_popescu: mpex is not regulated by the nyse, or in general by the us. expectations to the contrary will result in bruised expectators.
mircea_popescu: that'd be yet another difference between me and (bpay / coinbase / derp.* etc) : not only i make money and they make burn rate, but when i speak i speak from atop a position of significant power. they speak out of their ass, pretty much,not having an iota of actual influence either way.
mircea_popescu: which is fundamentally why they gotta keep quiet, for that matter.
mircea_popescu: STRML you're not using your cloak correctly youknow. we can see your ip.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i figure if someone goes to the trouble of getting a cloak they prolly care about it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 80314 @ 0.00050319 = 40.4132 BTC [+] {2}
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Earlier he said his bouncer was getting DoS...
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo re that post, lemme tell you how flattened i was by davout using "posteriority" :D
davout: postérieur in french also means butt
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla: i noticed when i was coding that keyservers tend to go down a lot << this is true, and has been for a while. pgp keyservers like the weakest link in the assets system currently.
mats: guess we'll have to run a keyserver now.
mats: themes of #b-a: rebuild EVERYTHING
mircea_popescu: kinda hoping that the by-default gossipd keystore system may be enough
BingoBoingo: Oh a qntra submission to /. got accepted, but in linksnipped form, Instead of the qntra story they link spamm-mysanantonio.com which isn't even remotely local to the fucking arrest!
kakobrekla: mats pretty much, and given the number of able people here, it will never get done
mircea_popescu: a) It's not nice to snip the source link - if you thought the guy;s work is good enough to use, think the guy is good enough to credit ;
mircea_popescu: b) the spammy link you replaced it with isn't even local. or useful.
kakobrekla: me? im a realist, thats why im pessimistic.
mircea_popescu: kinda funny how "statist " is slowly becoming a cry de guerre.
mircea_popescu: anyway, ftr, there's nothing at all in this gavin thing. so he came in, derped about nothing in particular, found his way out. at least a dozen random noobs/spammers performed just as well.
mircea_popescu: !rate felipelalli -1 has a very strange idea of when it's time to talk.
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.felipelalli.-1:ce71215acbced2ee28e23af75dd7b767e6314f260038f4c916a1aa81cb263c6e
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for felipelalli with note: has a very strange idea of when it's time to talk.
BingoBoingo: !v assbot:BingoBoingo.unrate.felipelalli:a27e904686bb93b6243af0b032d1e4e7c383eb1d052a8ad3e800080a8a0085c2
assbot: Successfully unrated felipelalli
mircea_popescu: uh this log. so yesterday^H^H^H^ earlier today ben_vulpes is all like "god i love you guys". then i get all "wtf is this derp thinking, giving usgavin room to pretend for ?" and next line in log, sure enough...
BingoBoingo: Oh, and CoinDesk finally got to a story on the arrest, but they instead cover the FBI Press Release.
mircea_popescu: I don’t want the developers setting it every two months, but I dont’ see a way to make fee revenue per block drive it (because the real-world bitcoin exchange rate is so variable) << this is particularly fucking stupid
BingoBoingo: "The arrest of Mr. Farrell is proof that federal law enforcement continues its efforts to root out those who subvert the Internet to set up black markets for illegal goods." << STFU
mircea_popescu: it was discussed earlier with jurov, but of course noobs don't read logs.
Pierre_Rochard: mircea_popescu: I was interested in hearing gavin defend tx fee elasticity, not much else
Pierre_Rochard: mircea_popescu: because I think the tx fee is inelastic to the point that it’s doubtful the limit will ever be raised
mircea_popescu: i don't know anyone that seriously thinks they have a model on it
mircea_popescu: (discounting, of course, frustrated nobodies a la adam back, who are so cocksure they imagine they invented clorophorm)
Pierre_Rochard: mircea_popescu: I agree, the only model is what actually ends up happening. I think the miners will get a taste for that inelasticity and jealously defend it. I think Gavin & co fear that more than anything else
mircea_popescu: to some degree the demand for gold was elastic, and this is trivially proven by the fact that while industrial revolution europe used gold, china opf the time used silver.
mircea_popescu: so there DOES exist some elasticity in the monetary good.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well, maybe he accidentally invented it cleaning. I mean bleach disinfects and ETOH disinfects. Maybe he really wanted to get his piss dribblings off of the bathroom tile?
Pierre_Rochard: gold and silver are much, much closer substitutes than bitcoin and, say, litecoin or coinbase.
mircea_popescu: Pierre_Rochard you know, the "say the word, nodes ready, miners ready within a recompile" messages i got so far and that keep piling in...
mircea_popescu: surely. and for that matter piss-poor models for bitcoin. that example is easily more misleading than useful.
mircea_popescu: but in point of fact the "monetary pholgiston" so to call the idealised thing is very poorly understood.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1382 @ 0.00084935 = 1.1738 BTC [+] {5}
danielpbarron: !rate gavinandresen -5 okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2500 @ 0.00085 = 2.125 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: lol. "k guise, i guess we have a fundamental difference of opinion about this here wide screen tv i stole from your place"
STRML: thanks. never had a need for a cloak before but since somebody here ddos'd my bouncer I figure it's a good idea
STRML: Yeah. Will have to configure on the bouncer. Thanks for the headsup
danielpbarron: !v assbot:danielpbarron.rate.gavinandresen.-5:88e38a0d3bacd012bbf85a347fd6114b79fbbf53301867d2bb5ecfc3aea36d67
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -5 for gavinandresen with note: okey dokey, we have a fundamental difference of opinion on where the project should go.
mircea_popescu: Pierre_Rochard: not to mention, the transaction fee _today_ is $0.02. Where is every man woman and child? Why are they not taking advantage of this amazing opportunity?? << because, the argument goes, they're so farsighted into the future, this children of the paycheck loan, these african seasonal hunters, that the POTENTIAL of it costing maybe more tomorrow perhaps is inhibiting them.
mircea_popescu: like you know, if bread in your african village is 5 dollars a loaf, and there's cake at 2 cents, you won't buy any cake.
mircea_popescu: becase IT IS POSSIBLE that in YEARS!!!! it may go as high as i dunno, 5cents ? a whole quarter ?
mircea_popescu: so you're spending 100 cakes per loaf of bread instead. because this is "economics" as understood by "expert economists" : oleg andreev, gavin assassinsen, that nytimes thoctchke what's his name
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: Pierre_Rochard: there is nothing, and good reason to think there cannot be, anything which even rises to the level of an ersatz. << in economics, substitute is a functional substitute not a logical substitute. in this sense, your feet are a substitute for a train.
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for gavinandresen with note: with note: pathetic usg muppet. tirelessly schemes to zimbabweize bitcoin in the name of 'inclusion.'
mircea_popescu: an usg education is an economic substitute of an actual education, and margerine is an economic substitute for butter.
xanthyos: is the price of bitcoin moving up today a response to gavin being dissed in assets?
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 227.97, vol: 21464.50503247 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 224.003, vol: 16571.37793 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 228.92, vol: 52253.10725355 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 229.5, vol: 17.07242792 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 226.822356, vol: 158884.46680000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 224.485, vol: 47.35145823 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 220.704000383, vol: 131.15571843 | Volume-weighted last (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know that scammer creativity analysis actually sounds very like soviet police doctrine, on meditation. didja get it out of some book ?
Adlai: is the asswot online yet? as in, visible from the www?
mircea_popescu: Adlai there are jsons. i am thinking about putting a job up for site-ification of those outputs.
kakobrekla: (and its not json, json is with /json/)
Adlai: kakobrekla: had you waited a moment, you could've earned a pretty penny!
Adlai: oh but yes this is jsons
davout: kakobrekla: this looks like a dump of a php array, sort if dictionary, or maybe an array, depending on the amounts of "="
Adlai isn't sure what to make of this, but it's good enough for him
davout: it can't be a web page, it has no google analytics
mircea_popescu: hory shit it's going to be th ecase nobody actually wants a PROPER web page ?!
kakobrekla: anyway, if you want a neater interface, add /json/ on end of url , decode and voila
mircea_popescu: where are the retarded bois going to mix cvasi azure with moss green and gold!
BingoBoingo: davout: Qntra doesn't have google anal-y-tics either
STRML: SASL is the key there
mats: anyone have an idea wut filesystem i should use with a SSD?
davout: BingoBoingo: i am disappoint
mats: i have read that many filesystems have behavior that is unkind to to writes
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: i can't spot *every* scam << o wow, do we get the sad, blood splattered, tear imbibed story of it ?
mats: nah, just a dev machine
mircea_popescu: it's not likely to make a difference mats. hdds are hceap enough.
mats: mmkay. idk anything about filesystems besides what i read in "Practical Filesystem Design"
assbot: Today in Silk Road proceedings, prosecution showed that the Dread Pirate Roberts private PGP key was saved on Ulbricht's computer.
davout: BingoBoingo: is that a different flavour of the same thing or is that fundamentally different?
BingoBoingo: davout: This one differs in quantcast showing EVERYONE the visitors who happen to load quantcast junk while visiting your page
mircea_popescu: ahahaha wait, wait. so gavin actually sprouted the ninjashogun line re b-a "conversation quality" ?!
STRML: generally you don't have to worry about running out of writes on most modern SSDs
STRML: so long are you're not running TLC NAND you're fine for a good long time, and even if you are, a pretty reasonable amount of time under most loads
STRML: not horseshit, for typical consumer use it's fine. For long-term data storage or server use, it's not
STRML: which is why they sell server SSDs for a higher price.
mats: asciilifeform: right. people more technically proficient than i have suggested 'btrfs' instead of ext4, but i suppose SSDs will drop in price quickly enough for me to not care
undata: "This drive rated to over 10000 Facebook page loads!"
kakobrekla: cosumer grade ssd. .. the controller will die first.
STRML: Best way to prolong SSD life is to keep a decent amount of free space on it so TRIM can work its magic
STRML: also helps if can afford to turn off swap, and turn off hibernate.
BingoBoingo: mats: From what I've read on btrfs it seems to be mostly a multi drive arrangement beast that apes at being ZFS while failing on more edge cases
mircea_popescu: no, srsly, kakobrekla has it. i've seen more controller failures than anything. actually out of cycles deaths are so rare i don't recall one.
mircea_popescu: shitty turdware in the chip more likely to be the culprit in any case.
mats dials up swap to 8gb
mircea_popescu: and by the time it's out of cycles, that drive has seen petabytes worth of traffic. the cost of 1 petabyte of pipe exceeds the cost of the drive many times over
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: contains "fix issue" buttons << lol this sounds like early chinese factory automation
mircea_popescu: davout: MAH HARICUT IS SIKRIT BZNS << honestly i had no idea it's a haircut. i had imagined it's simply whatever's left once the neighbours are done cutting their hedges.
mircea_popescu: davout: justusranvier: in your article you shouldn't be reasoning on the cost of including a transaction in a block as (cost of one block / number of transactions) but you should reason on the marginal cost of adding a transaction to an already existing block that i'm currently mining << quite
mircea_popescu: and that doesn't actually even begin to address the (unrelated) problem with "infinite blocks", which is market destruction out and out.
mircea_popescu: somehow the idea that you can get "just as good food and service" no matter how cheap a restaurant meal gets, like say a cent, or 1/1000th of a cent, is directly stupid to people.
mircea_popescu: but the notion that mining will still work no matter how badly the incentive structure gets ruined, because somehow mining is a god given gift / universal service obligation of nature to man doesn't.
mircea_popescu: guess what : mining is a marginal business as it is, and exactly the problems that ruined the western textile industry in your parent's lifetime can and will, if given a chance, ruin bitconi.,
davout: i think the idea of a one time bump of the block-size limit is actually much less braindamaged than the perpetual increase approach or infinite size that are pure folly
mircea_popescu: in point of fact, the industrial revolution was started by, and driven by, the textile industry.
mircea_popescu: anyone that's not read buffett's post mortem on that venture, once "block size was removed", really has no business participating in this conversation.
jurov: mats and avoid trim mount option, run fstrim every day or so instead
mircea_popescu: davout it's really a very complex problem, "what to do".
mats: jurov: ok thanks, will look into it
mircea_popescu: obviously, a scenario where block congestion is a real problem may be constructed. it may even, in principle happen.
davout: mircea_popescu: when in doubt, make a ruby framework
mircea_popescu: but in this sense, a scenario where gavin has gay sex with midgets can also be constructed. so let's put him in prison for it,
mircea_popescu: davout: i'm more of classical music and jazz guy << i knew there was a reason i liked you!
mats: anyone has warez of letters to shareholders 65-77?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28200 @ 0.00049947 = 14.0851 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: "<gavinandresen> My point is the point of Bitcoin is I can make a transaction to anybody in the world" << uhh.... if this is the point of bitcoin then bitcoin has at all points been so far offpoint it's a wonder it's still here.
mircea_popescu: this is r/buttcoin/ level understanding of bitcoin, for srs.
assbot: I live in Russia & my family is in U.S. here's our experience using Bitcoin for remittance. : Bitcoin ... (
http://bit.ly/1Gxzu93 )
jurov: i start grasping asciilifeform's problems with btc, too
mircea_popescu: jurov for what it's worth, here's my experience with bitcoin remittances : i sent btc to otc correspondents, ordered wires sent out to the hk account of my local agent, who has paid me dollars, in cash, in argentina. the entire process took less than what it takes to get a letter of credit, and significantly less than what international trade normally settles in.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: i could, if i were so inclined, finance a nuclear programme or pay for some murders in this manner.
mircea_popescu: and exactly nobody would ever know, exactly how the foregoing episode is known specifically and exclusively because i chose to share it.
jurov: i gather if alf received such wires, they'd ship him straight to azkaban
mircea_popescu: so, spare me the reddit nonsense. bitcoin, money, and good stuff aren't for poor people.
mircea_popescu: that said, remittances in the us are a total nightmare, because a) the us is principally insane and b) the entrenched interests of current processors work against the customers.
mircea_popescu: so for people needing a hundred bucks moved, it's hell on earth.
mircea_popescu: What are more safe alternatives in U.S. to fix our problem? (We can't afford losing our last $50) << this.
mircea_popescu: people whose budget is $50 have NO BUSINESS trying to maintain trading networks that span continents.
mircea_popescu: wtf is this, derpy guy going to hansa agent in riga cca 1315, "hello this is my very valuable small river rock, how can i send it to london ???"