mod6: <+BingoBoingo> But 2014 is like the 1960's of Bitcoin. Ancient history!!! << seems like yesterday
a111: Logged on 2017-09-10 20:12 asciilifeform: we're talking about simple ops, i should not have to touch fucking shift key
PeterL: somehow I didn't even think of that, I never use the numpad *!
PeterL: plus, it is waaaay over there, isn't it easier to just hit shift-8 ?
shinohai: I mean, it's just a few inches to the right - not a trip to Saturn.
PeterL: now I am wondering, what else does my keyboard have that I never use because I don't even notice it?
PeterL: hmm, here's another key I never use, what does "Caps Lock" even do?
☟︎ PeterL: I suppose people who are not programmers do not use ( or ) much, but does anybody actually use [ and ] any more often?
☟︎ PeterL: the other option is to think more, type less, and then it does not matter so much where any particular key is
PeterL: or, to take that to extremes, modern man is just a consumer of social media, does not need to type anything, just poke touchscreen and moo
a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 00:53 asciilifeform: shinohai: the comp is a machine that MUST ADAPT TO THE MAN, rather than the man to the comp. which is why it is infuriating idiocy , when an op that is done 9000 time daily ( say parens ) lives behind a metakey, while microshitian idiocies like 'printscreen' get own key
kanzure: i would also like to register a complaint about lack of n-key rollover and also another complaint about keyboard keypress registration latency, thanks
☟︎ trinque has keyboard remapped to hell, but would be nice to design the thing around the designated key functions.
a111: Logged on 2017-05-25 03:21 mod6: which ones does alf like?
trinque: hm yeah, I've only ever clacked on an M.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-12 17:47 asciilifeform: phf: the hard part is to actually get a hold of a 'model f'.
trinque: I'd pay a grand, why not. paid more than that for shittier items.
trinque: but kanzure's calitards can splice wings into my ass on a UBI budget
trinque: anyhow I'd accept the bespokenness of key labels as a start
☟︎ kanzure: asciilifeform: give me a system that can do better high-fidelity human data output than a 300 wpm keyboard please.
kanzure: also i would like a full key se without extensive modkeys
kanzure: lateral movement isn't so bad, sean wrona does that all the time
kanzure: his techique is sort of bizarre and probably caused by brain damage, where he types same words using different fingering each time, and also lots of hovering
kanzure: really the only purpose of high wpm that i have figured out is winning irc flame wars
a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 01:04 asciilifeform: why not carry the 'think more, type less' thing to logical conclusion.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 02:43 kanzure: i would also like to register a complaint about lack of n-key rollover and also another complaint about keyboard keypress registration latency, thanks
a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 03:33 asciilifeform: ( not much reason to expect that it would cost substantially less than, e.g., bespoke bicycle costs. )
a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 03:44 asciilifeform: if you actually NEED 100s-of-wpm for something, as opposed to pissing contests in arena, dwelling on anything other than a bespoke (for YOUR hands) chorder, is lunacy.
trinque: asciilifeform: any reason not to define VERSION in knobs.h ?
☟︎ trinque writing standalone tools for key->addr doodling, and eventually txn manip., had to define VERSION at the top of each.
☟︎ mircea_popescu aspires to one day meet a chick by the name o' shennaniganne o'sheridan.
mircea_popescu: eh, qty of one. "omfg, do you know what it means to make a planet on which snakes might evolve so as to have material FOR BUTTONS?!?!?!"
mircea_popescu: they still use commodity fabric, furnishings etc. they just tailor it to your ass is all.
mircea_popescu: either the first part, or the second part. you can't mix these.
mircea_popescu: if "mass-produced plebeshit as minimal bar" is your criterion, then it definitionally is not bespoke. because it's not compared to you, it's compared to the mass.
mircea_popescu: there's a substantial difference between "i don't like this" and "this doesn't compare favourably to rando coworker's item". these two can never mix. this isn't sophistry, but plain sense.
mircea_popescu: but i've yet to have a special textile plant made for it.
mircea_popescu: ie, when at the height of soviet obamacare you broke your leg and your mother made you an ad-hoc wooden contraption to fix it, she DID in fact bespoke you a traction, even if it sucked so bad as to compare negatively to african healthcare.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that difficulty is in no way particular. keys are commodity items.
mircea_popescu: unless you're getting your fingers measured for the key size or some shit.
mircea_popescu: you want your keyboard to have special letters on it ?
a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 03:34 trinque: anyhow I'd accept the bespokenness of key labels as a start
mircea_popescu: this is a very difficult problem, arbitrarily placed keys.
mircea_popescu: with good wear characteristics, andthen the item wants to retail for 20 bux.
mircea_popescu: what you need is one of those 50yo slave guys who spend life making chain mail and surgical steel stilleto heels.
mircea_popescu: (note that all key arrangements, from atms to dishwashers, are in a rectangular pattern ; and i expect alf wants them radial or something)
mircea_popescu: anyway, i suppose i'm the only one that doesn't actually care all that much.
mircea_popescu: yes, but in point of fact i write as much or more as anyone, on a kbd.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 06:29 trinque writing standalone tools for key->addr doodling, and eventually txn manip., had to define VERSION at the top of each.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 06:28 trinque: asciilifeform: any reason not to define VERSION in knobs.h ?
a111: Logged on 2017-08-10 19:45 asciilifeform: forn00bz: an, e.g., rsa modexp, in ffa, must be representable by a long roll of paper, on it are ops for ordinary 4function calculator, with very patient slave. and roll ONLY ROLLS FORWARD and has finite # of instructions on it, known in advance when you decide the ffa width.
BingoBoingo: * asciilifeform seriously considered getting one done << Eh, go porcelain. Make and fire just like tile. Turk up your keys!
☟︎ BingoBoingo: What are you banging it into that it can't be keycap on top of fiber cement subcap? (i.e. like a floor)
BingoBoingo: Even then, rest of switch mechanism doesn't have to be ceramic. Just the keycaps. Solves problem of letter wear. Everything else can be buttjection molded whatever, as long as it is soft enough to not piss of keys.
BingoBoingo: Tattoo black letter into white rubber, replace ever 25k kilometers
BingoBoingo: Now that this is decided, refocus to rest of the thing
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: could etch the letters in; carve them out with a cnc mill. 'tis not the end of the world.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: it's all dead. we live in the ashes.
ben_vulpes: release your attachment to the perfect devices of years past, it but causes you suffering
mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2017-09-12 01:00 asciilifeform: i even have comps with no input mechanism at all!111
ben_vulpes: every man in teh failed states of americastan gotta pick which things to salvage from the midden to cobble a life together from.
ben_vulpes: i eat from tin pans i salvage from the midden, just like you.
mircea_popescu: "Elaine Ou is a blockchain engineer at Global Financial Access, a financial technology company in San Francisco."
mircea_popescu: but anyway, afaik retired academia, stanford whatever.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 17:49 BingoBoingo: * asciilifeform seriously considered getting one done << Eh, go porcelain. Make and fire just like tile. Turk up your keys!
mircea_popescu: possibly not a good fit for kbd depending on how hard you hit.
mircea_popescu: yes but your discussion is weak. porcelain is harder than you understand.
mircea_popescu: every material is to a degree brittle much like every material is to a degree warm.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: under what conditions is steel more brittle than ceramic?
mircea_popescu: problem with porcelain is weak internal bonding, not brittleness.
mircea_popescu: intuitively it may seem "oh, it's brittle", because whatever, dropped mom's china. but this intuition is wrong.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's how it's dealt with, yes. improved mix, it's not straight up enammeled clay eh.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes understand, MOST historical porcelain ever made survived. this is very not true of steel, which ~all broke.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: oxidization plays a role in the loss of steel
ben_vulpes: see the recent discovery of cavalier swords at hadrians wall
ben_vulpes: buried under concrete, anaerobic environment, nearly everything survived
mircea_popescu: understand : if you spent your million dollars to buy knight's sword, it came with a "will not make it 20 years" guarantee. if spent same million dollars to buy china set, it came with "forever as long as your family line shall be" guarantee.
mircea_popescu: (million dollars is perhaps not enough to buy either, but let's pretend fiatola has some modicum of value)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform both items used in the intended manner. sword, as sword, cup as cup.
ben_vulpes: anyways, same-dimensioned columns of steel and china/ceramic; ceramic column will assplode under load that steel blinks at
mircea_popescu: but this hides the proper argument. ben_vulpes would you say "paper is stronger than spider web, i can tear the latter without noticing" ?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes not so. dimension here is not properly taken as "same kg" or "same m3"
ben_vulpes: for engineering considerations it most certainly is
mircea_popescu: it is a very uninformed argument. in point of fact the "Fragile" spider web is one of the strongest materials known.
ben_vulpes: need to know, or heuristicate, how much ceramic to make the handle out of
mircea_popescu: similar situation with porcelain, counterintuitively it is rather unbrittle.
ben_vulpes: paper and spider silk have vastly different densities
ben_vulpes: different ~everything; what, make me a strand of wood fiber as thin as spider silk and let's test it
mircea_popescu: which is why proper dimensional comparison counts relevant dimensions, not intuitively familiar ones.
mircea_popescu: notwithstanding that in many applications in the past back when we were 3 yo those were equivalent categories.
ben_vulpes: well this is the job of engineer, select correct materials for correct applications.
ben_vulpes: myeah, dent test don't make so much sense applied to ceramics
mircea_popescu: we weren't discussing an application ; we were discussing a fact.
mircea_popescu: facts aren't open to engineering, they're the subjects o' science.
mircea_popescu: hence material science and materials engineering are different disciplines.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: is trying to slip into the crack between 'science, indisputable facts!' and 'can't make a sword blade out of ceramic dummy, wrong situation'?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i wasn't aware your design envelope was going to randomly expand to "i want a wrench droppable kbd now too".
mircea_popescu: but anyway, the original point was, that "abrication of wear resistant small pieces went through centuries of being porcelain based".
trinque: "she has to fuck well, whether or not dropped off a building!"
mircea_popescu: anyway, re the original design constreaints : porcelain way the fuck better than plastic for "dbl injection cast mold in qty of one"
mircea_popescu: trained slavegirl can make you these by hand in an afternoon, whole set of beautiful keys.
mircea_popescu: you know not what you speak of, my man. and this time it's sad. go look at the art of the past would you!
mircea_popescu: there's no squirreling away out of studying THIS particular end of art.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, let us point out the logical next step on porcelain fabrication, which louis & friends were engaged in at the time of their unfortunate beheadal
mircea_popescu: so we never got to see it, would have been ruby-injected-with-saphire.
mircea_popescu: and similar, emerald-and-citrine "double injection molds
mircea_popescu: the point being, that this here thing you've stumbled upon is actually a humongous cut branch of the tree of engineering.
mircea_popescu: and, contrary to diderot & wikitards "reality", there was in fact fascinating work ongoing in the ancien regime.
mircea_popescu: and thus the question was very much in a similar vein to your kbd from before ; and the last time in human (ie, european) history this was the case.
mircea_popescu: and y'all have to thank bb for mentioning this, because i don't take iron to the wood so to speak.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> problem is brittle. << Porcelain has a range of possible brittles. There are procelains sufficiently not fragile-brittle to take substantial foot traffic
mircea_popescu: another problem with the intuitive notion of brittleness is that it is poorly defined in the first place.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> foot is not a shock << Not everything that consitutes foot traffic is footsteps
mircea_popescu: man pizza is part. so are various vehicles (such as de-icers) and etc.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> man pizza is part. so are various vehicles (such as de-icers) and etc. << AHA
mircea_popescu: (if you think "oh, man-pizza is soft np" have your girlfriend fall a coupla feet on top of you from say a fuck sling, get back to me.)
mircea_popescu: well... the 200lb man it's not as kalahsh-SOUNDING as the 3 lb wrench!
mircea_popescu: and what is a spine, or fractured ribs with thereby fine points.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i'd incidentally be entirely open to buying porcelain keys, if anyone knew how to make these to the req'd dimensional tolerance, and see what happens << You solve this with grout
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo he solves it by fucking getting up to speed with 18th century art as an engineering practice!
mircea_popescu: you can formulate porcelain so it adheres to a metal lattice stronglier than the actual metal!
mircea_popescu: so you have your letterface "A" made out of gold and then the porcelain put around it.
mircea_popescu: glass is a kind of porcelain for the needs of this discussion
mircea_popescu: (for the curious : porcelain is heat-rearranged Al2 Si2 05 (OH)4 ; glass is more generally heat-rearranged Si + metal)
mircea_popescu: the microscopic reason it is such a strong material is the oxigen-linked silica crystaline patterns that form.
mircea_popescu: the reason steel loses out is that the carbon is a shittier oxigen (more valences, weaker valences) and iron a dubious silicate.
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: a fine example : porcelain does not swell. metals dilate significantly. suddenly, a different sort of brittle emerges.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i was discussing the above "intuitive notion of brittleness is useless"
mircea_popescu: the important categories in this discussion are metals (ie, materials where the electrons don't sit with their atom ; form cloud. these -- always conductive electrically) ; porcelains (or glasses, or ceramics, or how'd you call them) and then plastics (polymerized item).
mircea_popescu: in this discussion wood is a plastic. and other such intuitively-surprising items.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-28 23:27 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform im strictly going by the above "woman will do anything you wanrt provided it is what she ewas goping to do anyway". afaik, spiders do actually make variants of it.
mircea_popescu: (and yes, wood is a plastic is the key to ANOTHER side of "you didn't read up on your art in college, you lose" surprisebox. because yes, wood will do the "Doluble injection cast mold". it was the arab world equivalent of chinese china. look up "mother of pearl"
mircea_popescu: if you make your key of ebony or some other high quality wood and the letterface out of say mother of pearl, you have a very good wear profile item as well.
mircea_popescu: these, amusingly, were also driven by similar processes as the pre-usgification of europe, ie "gotta impress the single solitary unique sultan"
a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 19:31 asciilifeform: upstack : i've dropped a wrench on my model-f keys, and 0 chipped.
mircea_popescu: (nacre, if you're curious, is the natural alternative to porcelain ; some molluscs even manage iridiscent porcelain non-nacre lining, which is why gigas pearls are valuable)
mircea_popescu: in the simplest sense, mother of pearl is discs of calcium carbonate "glass" suspended in chitin (the insect plastic equivalent of celulose ; same thing as makes hair in mammals.)
mircea_popescu: the important point, however, is that nacre has a young's modulus as high as 100. (young modulus being a reasonable measurement of an aspect of intuitive "brittleness".)
mircea_popescu: it's not even so expensive, in today's terms. if only we didn't live among anodyne barbarians and the tech stack all rotten away.
mircea_popescu: but a kg of mother of pearl is cheaper to get than a kg of useful slavegirl. put some shell in a tank.
mircea_popescu: ivory is actually not proper part of this discussion. not either very good or very valuable, british "tea" nonsense.
mircea_popescu: but, "teeth of your enemies" always and everywhere indicated substitute to "teeth of surviving mamooth"
mircea_popescu: (all teeth are the same material, be it a lizzard's or your mom's ; it's a calcium hydrated salt.)
mircea_popescu: yes but why specify a dubious source for it. you want tooth, beat up some antifa hipsters, take their teeth make kbd.
mircea_popescu: you'll run out of elephants before you run out of stupid.
mircea_popescu: you can rebake this ; or grow it. it's not some mystical secret itam.
mircea_popescu: ikr ? which is why yes decent material, not so much used.
mircea_popescu: bear in mind dentine is like 2.5 mohs. so not so great (which is why enammeled in actual firing-in-field tooth)
mircea_popescu: anyway, only reason dentist doesn't bake you a new dentine layer is the temperature involved ; in a lab you can make arbitrarily large un-enammeled tooth.
mircea_popescu: but generally wouldn't want to ; fake teeth are not made this way because not really good enough.
mircea_popescu: yup. except not cost effective so far, porcelains have a century of refinement in dental prothesis supporting them
mircea_popescu: (incidentally, fake teeth are a metal cap with a porcelain top. very wear resistent, you chew 30 years on them)
mircea_popescu: but way the fuck cheaper than making plastic injection molds for a run of one.
mircea_popescu: ie, a dentist's lab out of ten probably has a graybeard who could make you the keys for pay. considering what the item costs irl, prolly >1k <10k for the whole key set.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform things that fit in mouths are very fine indeed.
mircea_popescu: and they do a sort of by-hand injection into hand-made molds, yes.
mircea_popescu: Sep 12 14:43:18 * Rothbart (51674d2b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.81.103.77.43) has joined #trilema
mircea_popescu: Sep 12 14:43:18 * mircea_popescu has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
mircea_popescu: Sep 12 14:43:18 * Disconnected (Remote host closed socket).
deedbot: rothbart voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: srsly, 240 seconds since the microsecond previous n lines ? pshaw.
rothbart: I've registered a public key with the bot, but haven't verified it yet (key was generated on GPG4Win) - should I start over from my Linux box, with a new public key?
rothbart: asciilifeform - cheers. I read the article about the Cardano, but don't see it on NSA site?
rothbart: oh - but that does something rather different
rothbart: I'm still busy dumping my bcrash safely; but a friend and I will be buying a few once we're done :)
trinque waiting on a turdnode as well
rothbart: asciilifeform - haven't even started syncing it yet - still processing the plan in light of your advice (ie. sweeping via trb first)
rothbart: it's all quite complicated, since I've been using Armory to manage my keys
a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 18:23 asciilifeform: you have the following primitives : multiplier ( 2 N-bit numbers -> 1 2N-bit number ); adder ( ditto ); subtractor ( ditto ); muxer ( 2 N-bit numbers, 1 single-bit number, yields one or the other N-bit depending on that single bit ) ; logical ops (and/or/xor/not)
mircea_popescu: ok, how slow is the following heuristicized approach :
mircea_popescu: 1. multiply x and y ; 2. count bits of result ; 3. count bits of modulus ; 4. multiply modulus with count2 - count3 and test if larger than result. if not, substract. if yes, multiply with count2-count3-1 and do the same. repeat until result smaller than modulus.
mircea_popescu: i tried the haskell approach to "Solving" problems, whadda ya want from me.
mircea_popescu: "what do you mean this problem is hard, i have a half baked item in my head i pompously call abstraction in which it is EASY!!!"
rothbart: asciilifeform: will I need to redownload the blockchain on trb?
mircea_popescu: rothbart if you have it in a portable data format, can just feed it into trb
mircea_popescu: but otherwise, prb much like any other windows app does not natively produce data in portable format.
rothbart: I've been trying to grok the segwit "theft" incentive - as the bounty grows, so does the PoW defending it - doesn't this keep the segwit outputs safe?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: whole fucking point of segwit is to try and take pow away.
rothbart: as in, the attacker would be doing a chain rewrite in order to keep the segwit outputs on his fork?
rothbart: wouldn't he have to redo all that PoW since segwit wen't active on his fork?
rothbart: I've read the logs, still confused about this
mircea_popescu: let's drop the math for a moment and delve. at time t0, bitcoin works. at time t1, some wreckers under "public pressure" as discussed well in
http://trilema.com/2013/digging-through-archives-yields-gold/ attempt to attack this bitcoin that works, by producing an alt-bitcoin, that does not work. the specific way in which the alt-bitcoin thatr does not work "works" is by deeding (exactly like deedbot) some strings into the bitc
rothbart: does the attacker just build upon the main chain, then; sending all the segwit outputs to himself?
mircea_popescu: oin chain. on the basis of these mystery strings, OTHER PARTIES, which ARE IN NO WAY BOUND TO THIS, alloocate wholly imaginary bitcoins to the sort of imbeciles who buy into this scheme (always and everywhere, the stupid poor. to them it makes sense, they've nothingh to lose anyway)
mircea_popescu: now then. at time t2, any of those involved, or any third party, simply SPENDS that bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: the t1 wreckers may yell all they want this "is not right". but in bitcoin longest chain prevails, and so the story ends
mircea_popescu: (to be, of coruse, rehashed again and again forever, like mike gavin's asshole.)
rothbart: how is it that the power rangers are all BLIND to this?
mircea_popescu: (always and everywhere, the stupid poor. to them it makes sense, they've nothingh to lose anyway)
rothbart: anyone, at any point, can claim all segwit outputs - all they need to do is solve the 80bit hash or whatever?
mircea_popescu: but whatever, i don't mind making money out of mit's "blockchain of the future", like i didn't mind fleecing "ripple" or cashing btc crash. free bitcoin will continue for as long as usg can draw breath, i'm not against. let them lose what they can't invest.
mircea_popescu: rothbart you're perhaps too new to know this, but the PREVIOUS time there was "miner consensus" it turned out the miners that "voted" and "supermajority" didn't give the slightest shit about the whole thing, and did NOT actually implement what they were misrepresented as having supported.
mircea_popescu: the exact same will happen again. "oh, you had a consensus ? lol."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how about something like squares interpolation ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if you maintain a list of the mod and it squares
mircea_popescu: ie, all the trivial polynomials of the mod, see ? x, x^2 + x, x ^ 3 + x etc etc
deedbot: rothbart voiced for 30 minutes.
rothbart: yea, sorry - I'll do it properly on my Linux box - just got so many questions!
rothbart: can I just register a new public key with deedbot, without revoking the old one?
mircea_popescu: (in a sense, key update with deedbot is like bitcoin spending!)
rothbart: having some trouble decrypting the message deedbot sent me
mircea_popescu: it is distributive in this sense at a minimum cost (tm).
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you understand you need AT MOST a single pass of knuth ? because it may exceed the mod but never by more than 3x ?
mircea_popescu: i am talking about how mod is distributive to addition "at a small cost".
mircea_popescu: that small cost can be slightly higher and constant time.
mircea_popescu: just write it all out by hand, the constanttime mod distributivetor.
mircea_popescu: you write by hand a function which takes a list with a promise none of the items on it exceed a mod, and returns the mod of the sum of the sum of the elements, in constant time.
mircea_popescu: you understand, a mod x + b mod x + c mod x may be > x, but never by more than op count * x.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 20:54 asciilifeform: and it happens B^2 times
mircea_popescu: that is not my concern! if there IS a mod, then yo ucan apply it to the terms rather than add them first and apply to result, is all i'm saying.
mircea_popescu: and this is potentially recursive, in that if you have a 500 bit number with 300 ones in it, you do the mod for 500 terms which are all a power of 2, throw 200 away, keep the other 300 and add them.
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 21:26 asciilifeform: 1mod2=1, 1mod2=1, 1mod2=1, but 1+1+1 = ...
deedbot: 410951F4EED9132643015A058B46D224AE9E116C is already registered as rothbart.
mircea_popescu: for simplicity, input list limited to 2 elements, but expansion obvious.
mircea_popescu: repeat 2 until you have populated a list of equal length, and return the correct element from it.
mircea_popescu: this will always take the same ops no matter what elements are in the original list.
mircea_popescu: yes, but this is very cheap here. because the elements in list are < mod
mircea_popescu: so you won't have many passes of it. just as many as elements in list at the most.
mircea_popescu: that i can believe. though i expect the above is actually cheaper than adding teh numbers first and modding after.
mircea_popescu: this approach of "i have a girlfriend and i am blind to all else" doesn't work with girlfriends, or anything else.
mircea_popescu: the EXTRA COST of making mod actually distributive is SMALL.
mircea_popescu: the procedure is both obvious and insistently discussed above.
mircea_popescu: good for you ; but your problem isn't what you presented it as being.
mircea_popescu: alf : "probvlem is mod is not distributive" me : "it can be made, cheaply" alf : "no, it can not" me : "here" alf : "oh, i did that back in july". then wtf are you griping about.
mircea_popescu: "have you thought about what'll you do about lingerie ? TRIBAL GIRLS CANT WEAR ANY!"
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: and congrats, you've closed the liar circle on yourself. the only task remaining is to establish whether alf lied when he claimed that mp's distributive-mod algo is already in his ffa since july ; or rather he lied when he claimed distributive mod would actually be useful ; or at some other juncture.
mircea_popescu: but, what you say on this topic is in some proportion not true.
mircea_popescu: <mircea_popescu> "it" in 3 is mod ? or what ? asciilifeform> aha mod asciilifeform> i was speaking specifically of the division algo
mircea_popescu: well, let's try and salvage this nonsense through the mafgic of yes and no questions.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is the plan here to just keep adding reading material paper over fire ?
mircea_popescu: now back to the issue. 1. is it true or is it false that currently sums are calculated before the modulus of the result is calculated ?
mircea_popescu: is it true or is it false that you understand how to make modulus calculations distributive wrt addition ?
mircea_popescu: alright. then let me tell you how to do it, and if you fucking say you did it in july ima buy a plane ticket and hang you by the tallest petard.
mircea_popescu: alrigthy, so. you take a list of numbers. you add these numbers. you write the result down. you compare this result with the modulus. if the result is smaller than the modulus, you add the modulus to it and write it underneath ; if larger, you substract the modulus and write it underneath. you repeat this step until you have a list of added/substracted moduli to the result AS LONG as the original list of elements. in it, you
mircea_popescu: will necessarily have the modulus of the sum. this entire procedure is constant time.
mircea_popescu: let's take fucking numerical examples already. a = 349087340 ; b = 1209843095 ; c = 753059056. mod = 5.
mircea_popescu: let's take fucking numerical examples already. a = 349087340 ; b = 1209843095 ; c = 753059056. mod = 7.
mircea_popescu: you can ALSO do : 349087340 mod 7 = 0 holy motherfucking crap omfg what is this.
mircea_popescu: let's take fucking numerical examples already. a = 349087340 ; b = 1209843095 ; c = 753059056. mod = 17. << final!
mircea_popescu: you can ALSO do : 1433293 mod 17 is 6 ; 7926803 mod 17 is 9 ; 9266137 mod 17 is 15.
mircea_popescu: you feed into my above function the list 6, 9, 15. it adds them : 30. it then writes down 30 -17 ie 13. it then writes down 13 + 17 = 30. it has peroduced a list as long as the original (3 elements), among which the SECOND is the modulus of 1433293 +7926803 +9266137
mircea_popescu: though it never added 1433293 +7926803 +9266137 ; it added 6 and 9 and 15.
mircea_popescu: in any case : you run it until same length list ; smallest int on it will be the correct mod. always terminates, always constat time etc.
mircea_popescu: well, i dunno how expensiuve addition is and how much it adds to the mod.
mircea_popescu: but the original idea was that it is indeed cheaper to mod the parts than the whole sum.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, modulus bitness sum as opposed to N bitness sum. but sure.
mircea_popescu: it is also extensible in the sense that if you wish to compute the mod of a 512 bit number, you can cut it up into as many powers of two as there are 1's, feed it into this, and get a modulus.
mircea_popescu: this may or may not be cheaper ; but in general you would build a list of the pre-calculated mods of all the powers of 2 up to your bitness and save that to save on work.
mircea_popescu: but the important point re that, is that whenever they use a reduced matrix we can STILL use the ufll matrix!
mircea_popescu: it's not automatically bad just for being a list ; you don't have to pare it down.
mircea_popescu: consider the number 97. is is 1100001. they do mp_mod (2^6, 2^5, 2^0) ; you can do (2^6, 2^5, 0* 2^4, 0* 2^3,0* 2^2,0* 2^1,2^0). the list method will sitll work, but this time in constanttime.
mircea_popescu: whether this approach is actually faster than the current mod of 97 as implemented via knuth is open to discussion, i guess.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if this is true, then the above method should be way faster.
mircea_popescu: ok. ima just take the 137 tail cuz lazy. 137 is 10001001. we have precalculated that 128 mod 17 is 9, and that 8 mod 17 is 8, and that 1 mod 17 is 1
mircea_popescu: so now we feed my procedure above : 9, 8, 1. it returns 18, 1, 18 ie 1.
mircea_popescu: if you want constant time, you feed the list 9, 0,0,0,0,8,0,0,1. it will do 18, 1, 18, 1, 18, 1, 18, 1 etc.
mircea_popescu: this holds for arbitrarily large numbers, and i suspect will be faster than classical.
mircea_popescu: i'll take your word for it if you say so ; i've not looked at them closely in comparison.
mircea_popescu: but that inconvenience is not the same as the "Same number of cycles" claim.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform im pretty sure i read the whole knuth as a teen, so it's likely just memory at work.
phf:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712362 << i actually use this one pretty frequently when i type for identifiers, abbreviations and section headers in notes. really any time i need to type more than 2 capitalized letters in a row..
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 00:50 PeterL: hmm, here's another key I never use, what does "Caps Lock" even do?
phf:
http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712367 << i've went through many layout modifications, but i finally settled on just having () and [] switched around. it's convenient both for prose and lisp (not so much heathen languages though)
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 01:01 PeterL: I suppose people who are not programmers do not use ( or ) much, but does anybody actually use [ and ] any more often?
phf: damn, it's a long log
phf goes to sleep instead
mircea_popescu: anyway, three points since i got a blowjob and apparently this inspires me.
mircea_popescu: 1. if you actually want metal kbd, your choice of steel is probably ill advised. i'd try silver instead. heuristicallyt there's a reason gunsmiths and silversmiths were ~the same people i nthe early modern period ; moreover silver has better properties in the range sough.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: 2. a fine example of how "i work for the web man" rots the brain, is that in an implementation of the above discussed mod-distributiver, the "common" consensus impulse would be to add a test, make sure the list elements respect the condition of <modulus. this however is very much the wrong thing ; and it is a tmsr-graduate level question to explain why and wherefore.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: and finally 3. the item there described is not exactly a function. it rather something i'd call a mechanism, a discrete item that does a fully defined thing. as we're looking more and more through ada eyes and constant time things and so on, a study of these mechanisms as an distinct category will prolly be useful. somewhere between conway's cells and commandline utils, they are.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: run of the mill pantsuit idiocy, but then suddenly "Es que en Rumanía todos se llaman Mircea Popescu. ¿Sabes?"
a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 23:12 mircea_popescu: and finally 3. the item there described is not exactly a function. it rather something i'd call a mechanism, a discrete item that does a fully defined thing. as we're looking more and more through ada eyes and constant time things and so on, a study of these mechanisms as an distinct category will prolly be useful. somewhere between conway's cells and commandline utils, they are.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-10 03:23 asciilifeform: what is needed is a wholly algebraic process. like my mult.
a111: Logged on 2017-08-10 19:45 asciilifeform: forn00bz: an, e.g., rsa modexp, in ffa, must be representable by a long roll of paper, on it are ops for ordinary 4function calculator, with very patient slave. and roll ONLY ROLLS FORWARD and has finite # of instructions on it, known in advance when you decide the ffa width.
a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 23:11 mircea_popescu: 2. a fine example of how "i work for the web man" rots the brain, is that in an implementation of the above discussed mod-distributiver, the "common" consensus impulse would be to add a test, make sure the list elements respect the condition of <modulus. this however is very much the wrong thing ; and it is a tmsr-graduate level question to explain why and wherefore.