trinque: paying for services is different!11!!!
thestringpuller: oh man i forgot to put my homage to the dreamcast up before 9/9 ended.
mircea_popescu: this is shockingly useful, like those corner ramps disabled people wanted put in and then everyone just loved them
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Error: "subscribe" is not a valid command.
shinohai: What were specs for a bot wallet anyway? There was a cruddy one written by gribble's author I started to hook to trb one time but never finished
mircea_popescu: it's supposed to keep a balance for you and make payments. exactly same mechanics as rating, which is how i dumped on trinque.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: no rule that there can only be one, however ; on the contrary.
trinque: more redundancy the better. these facilities end up being what's available on a particular gossipd node, as I see it
trinque: that said shinohai pls do not hook a cruddy anything to your trb for your own sake.
mircea_popescu: trinque soonish we'll end up with a sort of space sim, "you dock to station trinque, here's what's available"
shinohai: no trinque that's why I abandoned it, it was just garbage, I thought I'd be better off to start from scratch.
trinque: could think of it like bitcoin is a corrosive that *will* find its way out of the container if it can
thestringpuller: trinque: store bitcoin like you would nuclear waste. the true asciilifeform method!
trinque: a very brief overview is that there is one deposit address, encrypted OTPs are archived elsewhere as they are sent to transactors, then deeded, and withdrawals involve a human walk over the account history before dispatching a txn.
mod6: my new vpatch, as we discussed lastnight works perfectly.
mod6: im also going to use this vpatch to tag the release and tie up the leafs.
mod6: alright. now we'll begin a testing cycle. when we're done with that, will sign and publish vpatch.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-10 00:06 mircea_popescu: it's supposed to keep a balance for you and make payments. exactly same mechanics as rating, which is how i dumped on trinque.
phf: asciilifeform: i don't have any vulpes sigs either..
a111: Logged on 2016-09-09 23:24 mircea_popescu: change a111 's control sequences whatever they may be currently to !# only please.
mod6: yeah, ben has never signed anything.
shinohai: mircea_popescu should go and flip tables.
trinque: asciilifeform: how to do micropayments for deeds and rss notifications without a wallet?
trinque: it runs off an address that has been slowly dwindling 0.1btc
trinque: I'm saying it is a robot handling money
trinque: did you see what I wrote above about it?
mod6: <+asciilifeform> not a vpatch, at ant rate. << fair distinction
trinque will need to actually blog about it
trinque: should be possible to confirm that all transactions were authorized by end user before moving any actual btc
trinque: and this on airgapped machine
mod6: well, i don't wanna speak for ben_vulpes, but iirc he's read most of them if not all; maybe just didn't get around to signing for lack of time because of baby, and running company.
mod6: again, don't wanna speak for the man; however, don't think he has any at this point.
mod6: ben_vulpes: Sir, please weigh in here when you get a spare moment. ^
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-10: [02:01:24] <asciilifeform> i dun get it.
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-10: [02:06:08] <shinohai> mircea_popescu should go and flip tables.
shinohai snickers, told covertress this when she invited him
shinohai: I have no interest in that shit
mircea_popescu: anyway. argentina is a fine place for it, more derpy posers per square mile here than almost anywhere in the world.
shinohai: I wonder what are the Bitpay people on schedule for, gonna give a speech on how to get hacked?
shinohai: Oh wait, that's the guy that got phished and scammed out of like 1.8 million I think.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can you explain your problem with micropayments any more articulately than "i don't understand this" ?
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2016-09-10 02:41 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can you explain your problem with micropayments any more articulately than "i don't understand this" ?
mircea_popescu: sure ; but i don't think trinque was proposing the purpose of bitcoin is micropayments.
trinque: I even said once "so then build Visa on bitcoin"
mircea_popescu: what the fuck's one to do ? there's a major difference between "all these people running around blathering about how bitcoin will change the world of starbucks are idiots" and "micropayments are evil". even though at the time a bunch of idiots run around like they run the place, the difference is negligible.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: seems a significant chunk of disputes arise from misapprehension rather than a genuine difference of opinion an' what's worse, seems to me the trend is upwards.
mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, this is exactly work hardening for social groups ; and for that matter how parties are born.
trinque: people eventually find out that perhaps the reasons they agreed were different!
trinque: there's another thing in there too, appropriately subtle. idiot taint, or something.
trinque: satan touched this; it is infected.
mircea_popescu: it's a wonder actually, that alf's personal antigens of 1.(the usg is in all things - in his personal flavour of this) + 2.(if you lick my lunch i will starve today) don't completely preclude any action whatsoever.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: you'd expect he'd be unable to get out of bed. i guess there's missing ingredients in the formula.
mircea_popescu: but in any case the same tongue that licked tcp/ip also licked all of washington dc, not to mention etc.
mircea_popescu: anyway. for one thing - transaction fees are micropayments ; like it or not, that's what they are, in the exact sense contemplated for deedbot.
thestringpuller: ;;later tell pete_dushenski I have a car dilemma. I can't figure out what model Cadillac this is. If I send you pics could you decipher?
trinque: the public ledger did not cancel private accounting
thestringpuller: !~later tell tell pete_dushenski I have a car dilemma. I can't figure out what model Cadillac this is. If I send you pics could you decipher?
jhvh1: thestringpuller: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: moreover, nobody said the deedbot wallet is to be restricted to micropayments. that's obviously the angle to solve, from an engineering pov ; but to then on that infer that it is ONLY for such is silly.
thestringpuller: there's a reason I don't pay for my groceries in pennies...
trinque: with a one megabyte block to serve the whole world's 10min of txn, your groceries *are* a fucking micropayment.
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller the whole point is that if i want to pay deedbot 100 satoshi for whatever, i'd rather have this as an offchain txn than as a blockchain spam tx
mircea_popescu: eulora provides a convenient way to do this ; but there's no rule one gotta use THAT particular solution.
trinque: mircea_popescu knows better than anyone here that bitcoin did not cancel derived instruments of value.
trinque: one of the coolest things here is that the wallet can guarantee someone shall be paid
mircea_popescu: in any case, just think how cool it'd have been if i could have paid all these eulora noobs getting bitcents via bot directly.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-10 02:58 mircea_popescu: what the fuck's one to do ? there's a major difference between "all these people running around blathering about how bitcoin will change the world of starbucks are idiots" and "micropayments are evil". even though at the time a bunch of idiots run around like they run the place, the difference is negligible.
thestringpuller: trinque: kind off target for my point. throwing change at someone for any purpose tends to devolve into spam.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform less than the price of a working nuclear submarine with all the trims.
thestringpuller: i see this as a deframentation problem than anythin (hence why i also consolidate inputs in an address before they become dust)
mircea_popescu: mortar is not defined by that criteria. there is cannon with narrower ratio than mortar.
mircea_popescu: there's alternatively "selfpriming projectile" vs "firing mechanism"
trinque is still writing response to earlier question, but who are you to say what the price of anything is?
mircea_popescu: this is a poor criteria. there's little relation between fee and sense as it currently stands. i can send tiny payments with no fee because of coinbase age.
☟︎ trinque: "below this amount is not worth it so sez guy on internet"
trinque: you know, *paying for things* solves a great deal of the world's got-something-for-showing-up problems
trinque: you realize first data does 2tn/yr in transactions ?
trinque: do you even have any idea how much money moves around per day?
mircea_popescu: the only problem here asciilifeform is that you have a firm opinion about an item you've not bothered to understand ; and the opinion is spit-glued on what may be the effigy of a live hyena except it;'s a stone gargoyle.
trinque: the number of transactions not the damned unit
thestringpuller: iirc first data was bought by someone for debt and for many years was used as a tax writeoff since it delcared 0 profit
trinque: what in the fuck does that have to do with how many transactions they process
mircea_popescu: deedbot is intended to have a wallet so i can deposit a whole btc with it and then pay it a little bit whenever rather than have to send multiple transactions. THIS particular aspect of "microtransactions" is rather opposite to the common conception thereof.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-10 03:20 mircea_popescu: this is a poor criteria. there's little relation between fee and sense as it currently stands. i can send tiny payments with no fee because of coinbase age.
trinque: lets dance around everywhere because we don't understand how actual payments occur in the world, and are used to criticizing the ass-clowns in the bitcoin space.
thestringpuller: trinque: from my understanding working there, the payments were offloaded based on bank.
thestringpuller: although most CC tx's go through first data i don't thin they process them all
a111: Logged on 2016-09-10 03:03 mircea_popescu: it's a wonder actually, that alf's personal antigens of 1.(the usg is in all things - in his personal flavour of this) + 2.(if you lick my lunch i will starve today) don't completely preclude any action whatsoever.
trinque: how is the proposed item different than any other accounting
trinque: you paid your gym bill in advance for the month; you get to come in for the whole damn month
trinque: and before that, oh my god, I'm holding your money
trinque: I might even lose it all and close shop, and then no gym for you
trinque: then in sanity land you come burn me at the stake
mircea_popescu: cuz deedbot keeps its own accounts. no mining. they're not even reported.
trinque: we were talking about a bot!
trinque: thestringpuller: I was establishing some ways to measure the current throughput of the world's financial system, not crediting any particular entity with this throughput.
trinque: kill half the earth, you could still have a world where 1mb blocks do not hold all the financial exchange
mircea_popescu: well looky, consumer payments aren't really financial exchange. they're you know, cc payments.
mircea_popescu: financial exchanges are a different kettle of fish, usually happen on actual exchanges.
thestringpuller: trinque: sure. but from my experience with payment processors they only exist because people don't know how to use money.
trinque: the inability to hold to a particular topic is astonishing
trinque: more importantly, the willingness to ignore instances in one's own day where he bought a screwdriver or roll of toilet paper...
trinque: doesn't the paper count in this context?
thestringpuller: trinque: lemme simplify - from my experience the throughput of a payment processor is due specifically to the devolution of the use of money.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nah. it took a lot of finessing to geting here!
trinque: thestringpuller: would you fucking speak in specifics
trinque: instead of quoting slogans out of things people said (where they actually had context with gave them meaning!!!)
thestringpuller: okay for instance the prepaid card exists specifically to gouge poor people. each time you use the thing, you have undisclosed fees (which was closed when russell simmons got sued over rush card in 2011/2012). loyalty programs exist to increase tx volume so people "spend more". every initiative at the payment processor level is to create bloat.
mircea_popescu: trinque if paper counts then we got a problem because i suspect it makes txn uncountable.
thestringpuller: trinque: from my point of view it's better to buy 1 year of netflix in cash from a store than to have them charge your debit card 12 times throughout the year.
trinque: oh, and netflix received cash from you, did it
trinque: "I have decided how the world works and will now run around picking phenomena from it as fits my narrative."
thestringpuller: the point i'm making is the payment industry WANTS to bloat payments. they prefer 12 payments to 1 payment
trinque: you are not going to find orders of magnitude change in removing that from the bulk of payments
trinque: loyalty does precisely dick for sales
mircea_popescu: and i suppose if the ulterior point here is that of those supposed 100mn txn or w/e, 90% are just there to be there ; it has some legs to stqand on.
trinque: ther eis a whole round of dead shartups on that idiot idea
trinque: the 10% is still bigger than a block
thestringpuller: trinque: This doesn't change the fact the initiative trend towards bloat rather than efficiency.
mircea_popescu: there's a bigger effect at stake : if you take the 100mn, and trim them to the top 0.001% say, to fit in blocks, you will get the bottommost tranche of this dutch autction say 1mn dollars (random number)
mircea_popescu: if you trim the txn to remove bloat, and then take only 0.01% that still fits in blocks
mircea_popescu: you STILL Get about the same monetary value as the bottommost tranche of your dutch auction
mircea_popescu: ie, whether you fit 0.001% of bloated cc txn or 0.01% of trimmed cc txn, the smallest txn you include will still be ~same.
trinque: there was another thread where it was discussed that the common person would merely operate out of an account held by his lord, and everyone bobbled heads at that because the framing felt good.
☟︎ trinque: now because the real world example of existing payments is used, it triggers the immune system.
mircea_popescu: well if it's discussed with slavegirls and a great pink fuzzy harem with soft velvety marbles and foggy complex pools... then yes@
☟︎ mircea_popescu: incidentally, take that modern science of materials : i want velvety marble. always wanted it.
trinque: I'm just gonna end every statement I make with "and there will be sluts"
mircea_popescu: Framedragger log rendition of jhv includes >; and > in the url ?
☟︎ thestringpuller ponders if mircea_popescu is the real life Raymond Reddington
deedbot: vinimore voiced for 30 minutes.
vinimore: wait... how do I go to the chat again?
vinimore: it says I'm the only user hahaha
vinimore: 1Bt6S6aP5BH618ZFp2e1LZEmDZW53Ur4mS
vinimore: is there anything else I can do?
mircea_popescu: not right now ; i'm about to go to bed. but prolly tomorrow ; and besides there's other people who want to hire noobs, so ask in chan
shinohai: Our beloved fleanode has been cranky I see
mircea_popescu: hard to properly word a "company not around" clause is the problem. according to usg, ibm and cisco are both "still around".
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: in other news, check out the redundancy on that chick, three different block As.
covertress: thank you, mircea_popescu. as you can see, i'm having connectivity problems today with my hurricane-damaged isp.
shinohai: o/ mod6 the African build went fine btw
mod6: jurov: will there be a monthly Treasury report coming through for The Bitcoin Foundation?
mod6: yea, my offline build worked great too.
shinohai: Will try offline build today when I get a bit more organized
phf: (hmm, a111 lost that message during reconciliation, going to fix that issue..)
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-10: [05:24:47] <vinimore> going to bed too
scriba: Logged on 2016-09-10: [15:51:09] <asciilifeform> iirc he's one of the mr.mold-style americanized faux-anarchy fellas.
mircea_popescu: "i have my liberty and i dun need your dumb head to give me no rights" as far as ancient trilemisms go
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: Error: "bc,stats" is not a valid command.
jhvh1: mircea_popescu: I have 1 registered users with 0 registered hostmasks; 1 owner and 0 admins.
jhvh1: shinohai: Current Blocks: 429146 | Current Difficulty: 2.2075590833037228E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 429407 | Next Difficulty In: 261 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 18 hours, 54 minutes, and 14 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
shinohai: I didn't like the extra comma, twas removed
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: molyneux cribs from trilema with regards to the 'rights' fiction but then takes that perfectly reasoned (and seasoned) protein and tries to cook it... non-violently
pete_dushenski: ends up with usual probiotic vegan fare obv., because killing anything more than a carrot is mean mkay
shinohai: How dare you pete_dushenski, Apiaceae lives matter too.
pete_dushenski: shinohai: i guess there's always eating sterilised dirt
shinohai: What about all those poor microorganisms that would suffer and die in the dirt during the sterilization process?
mircea_popescu: they'll go to the great kitty litter in heaven ; which nobody ever changes.
pete_dushenski: better they die in the ovens than being slowly and painfully digested by stomach enzymes. sterilisation is the humane kill, like kosher neck slitting
pete_dushenski returns to see that kitty litter is fine but that he's waaay behind on trilema
a111: Logged on 2015-03-10 11:48 adlai: what really amazed/disappointed me was that NONE of the initial press coverage of 'soylent cream' mentioned 'soylent green'
mircea_popescu: coupla comments turn into 6k words in the blink of an eye.
mircea_popescu: this is not the worst though. there's some 5-6-700 comment articles from back in the romanian days.
shinohai needs a Romanian camwhore to help fast=track his language development.
BingoBoingo: Nah, James wanted to introduce him to spinach
mircea_popescu: btw, have you ever notice how many girls call spinach spinagge ?
pete_dushenski: in other alpha greens, i can totally get behind the definition of 'alpha male' that doesn't involve maintaining palaces full of harem girls. a deep sigh of relief was breathed across the land.
pete_dushenski: mostly because that many harem girls required a shedload of eunichs to keep a lid on things, which in turn require a whole castration and selection mechanism and doctors and nurses and orphanages and on and on and on
mircea_popescu highfives himself for the most contortedly elaborate constructed joke in human history.
pete_dushenski: i guess the white ones woulda been euwhiggas or something
shinohai: mircea_popescu you mean euniggs. <<< top kek
pete_dushenski: shinohai: speaking of keksicles, did you get a bash page up yet ?
pete_dushenski: i'd be happy to help moderate it, or even host it if need be
shinohai: Imma try and have it up by first of week, I got sidetracked with this trb makefile thing
shinohai: But yeah, appreciate the offer of help. I miss perusing the bash-ism and really want that feature back.
ben_vulpes: phf: that's my fault, uploaded a genesis.vpatch.sig
shinohai: It's the most effective tool of the Republic!
phf: asciilifeform: shitty url "parser" :> i've been meaning to replace it, but i'm working on something else right now
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Twas a headline with too much "Wat" not to round up xtend
mircea_popescu: Framedragger tried that elena thing ; lots of lols were had.
mircea_popescu: “WE CAUTION WE HOLD TH BOMB, IF ONE TRIES TO (TREACHERY) WILL DIE AND SAIDTHAT YOU WOULD NOT WANT TO PlAY DIE WE NEED SEVENTY THOUSAND DOLLARS WITH OUT THE PIECE WE SEE YOU WELL AND YOUR FAMILY ARE WAITING FOR YOU AGINE NO (TREACHERY). (NB) READ 4 MINUTES SENT THE HOSTAGE BOMB WE NEED THE $75,000.00…” << check this out, spammers got omega rage from being ignored by the rich people.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well, this is what happens when you don't build an Atlantic wall to keep spammers from becoming immigrants
mircea_popescu: by this point, im persuaded a half hour caning session for any would be mugger would do a lot more agains the phenomenon than anything the "legal system" has to offer.
mircea_popescu: also, calling ringo a "bank robber" is a little off ; by this token you can call every retard who broke his own pipes a plumber.
mircea_popescu: they're just petty thieves with the wrong address, walked in the bank because to them it looks just like the 7/11
☟︎ jurov: mod6 huh i forgot?
mircea_popescu: "I have never had a need to believe. Though this mental state of apostasy has saved me the anger that accompanies the disillusioned man in his 30s who finally discovers that some important pillar of his life was built upon a lie, it is no sign of superior intellect." << lafond in peak form.
a111: Logged on 2016-09-10 23:11 mircea_popescu: they're just petty thieves with the wrong address, walked in the bank because to them it looks just like the 7/11
mircea_popescu: who the fuck in his right mind wants to go talk to a teller.
mircea_popescu: the poor got their ebt or w/e it is ; fuse banks with restaurants, they can have a waiter to take your order and a bank teller. who the fuck heard of this, seated servant before me standing ?!
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: and eat bills as well these days
mircea_popescu: esp in the 80s, they had those ridiculous complicated paths cordoned off...
mircea_popescu: "nigga, i wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, who the fuck do you imagine is going through artistic queue movements."
ben_vulpes:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1538902 << you'll probably find this as useful as any other rodent carcass left on your pillow, but over the last 2 months i've racked my own metal, migrated out of virtualization to the new box, ported my blog to mp-wp, and stood the obvious tmsr services up on the new box (blog, paster, node). it doesn't look like much from the outside, but paying down debt of necessity
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2016-09-10 02:04 asciilifeform: i like ben_vulpes but he has not been catching mice.