⏐︎ 18130
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: tbh, someone has to explain this "subkeys" retardation to me sometime. fucking pseudohierarchy devoid of meaning. << Within your big GPG keyblock you can have multiple keys, say a 4096 RSA for signing and another 4096 to encrypt to. Beyond that you can keep stuffing moar keys in there just because...
danielpbarron: ;;isup 8ch.net
gribble: 8ch.net is down
danielpbarron: https://twitter.com/infinitechan/status/601176574713569280 >> Load balancer crashed. I asked datacenter for assistance with it. It apparently overheated, fan might be broken. More updates to come. ☟︎
danielpbarron: b-a crashed 8chan!
trinque: lol!
trinque: BingoBoingo: https://wiki.debian.org/Subkeys << clear as mud
trinque: and aside that, may the words should, associated, and all other "ignore the gap" terms be put to the spike
trinque: do I understand correctly that you use a "signing key" to sign your various subkeys, thus associating them with one identity?
BingoBoingo: trinque: Ideally, but...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 121757 @ 0.00026256 = 31.9685 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49295 @ 0.00026832 = 13.2268 BTC [+]
bad_duck: Hi, maybe someone could help me here..? ( http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/36p1i8/looking_for_some_data_about_time_between_blocks/ ) tl;dr -> I'm looking for some data about time between blocks (cannot rely on timestamps in blocks), if someone has some logs / know where to find this? thx!
funkenstein_: bad_duck, if you can't rely on the timestamps on the blocks what timestamps can you rely on?
danielpbarron: data signed by WoT members
funkenstein_: hehe good point
danielpbarron: does debug.log record the date from the block? or the time on my computer when the block was relayed?
bad_duck: danielpbarron | data signed by WoT members <-- I hope to find a "relyable" person, but yes I'll have to trust him
bad_duck: danielpbarron: yes, I have this info in my debug.log but my node is only running for 1-2 months...
danielpbarron: remember to copy it into a different location
bad_duck: danielpbarron: anyway I want some more data so I'm looking for someone who is listening the network for a long time / has logs
danielpbarron: i don't think debug.log would give you the info you want
bad_duck: danielpbarron: dependd if the node is running for a long time, it has it after the initial sync (and some missing / wrong poing after downtime when resync / getting last blocks)
danielpbarron: my log doesn't have this UpdateTip thing
bad_duck: hmm, mine has, things like that :
bad_duck: 2015-05-21 01:28:34 UpdateTip: new best=00000.... height=357347 log2_work=82.81497 tx=69326602 date=2015-05-21 01:28:05
bad_duck: 2015-05-21 01:30:13 UpdateTip: new best=00000.... height=357348 log2_work=82.815005 tx=69326669 date=2015-05-21 01:27:51
danielpbarron: also, you can do just grep UpdateTip .bitcoin/debug.log
bad_duck: for the last 2 blocks, on the left my timestamp, on the right the timestamp in block
bad_duck: but the node need to be connected / synched to get the "right" timestamp, during initial sync / update after downtime the timestamp on the left would likely be wrong
danielpbarron: mine just has the date in the block (version 0.7.2 and 0.5.3.x)
bad_duck: bitcoind? that's some old versions!
danielpbarron: http://thebitcoin.foundation/
bad_duck: ok, I see
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23750 @ 0.00026739 = 6.3505 BTC [-]
jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-05-2015#1140965 looked into it,unlike others the modem actually does not have access to memory or storage, communicates to cpu via uart ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 20-05-2015 21:58:54; ascii_field: what of the baseband ?
jurov: http://blog.sec-consult.com/2015/05/kcodes-netusb-how-small-taiwanese.html provided it doesn't do stuff like this...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 201608 @ 0.00025879 = 52.1741 BTC [-] {4}
decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-05-2015#1140385 < free herring is nice, but plenty of other places have free herring/oil/usg favors ☝︎☟︎
assbot: Logged on 20-05-2015 14:30:35; mircea_popescu: for as long as the free herring still lasts, they can run around derping about how they meditatively comprehensified the deep secrets of the universe.
decimation: why don't we have someone here from egypt derping about arab freedom
decimation: !up AdrianoOliveira
decimation: !up shesek
jurov: decimation: they are already in germany building nordic system ☟︎
AdrianoOliveira: thanks decimation
decimation: AdrianoOliveira: what brings you here
AdrianoOliveira: i was a regular "listener" here... but I am absent for the last couple months
AdrianoOliveira: basically I first came here while studying the pricing of bitcoin options
decimation: where does anyone trade bitcoin options?
jurov: !up nubbins`
decimation: jurov: lol good point - except I thought it was mostly turks
AdrianoOliveira: that's the problem... there is not negotiation at all.
jurov: heh do tell
AdrianoOliveira: I started pricing a model for them for the brazilian market (basically an option which would cover the risks of dolar and bitcoin)
AdrianoOliveira: but I didn't go beyond the model/backtest
decimation: jurov: note that ms. socialism failed to acknowledge that part
jurov: decimation no she'd see it a confirmation "yes they know it's good, too"
decimation: heh yeah. is slovenia full of ethnics too?
jurov: AdrianoOliveira: I recently asked local atm owner about selling some, he quoted me 200eur/btc
jurov: and i was like..wtf he gets bitcoins at such price?
jurov: there are too much we don't know
decimation: jurov: I suspect much btc trading happens over the counter
jurov: yeah, i suppose it's better to sell 10% lower under the counter and avoid taxes
jurov: and dunno about slovenia, ask kako
AdrianoOliveira: decimation: at least for the Brazilian market I can confirm that... today's volume at local exchanges was about 280 BTC and I got a user offering me 140 out of exchanges ☟︎
AdrianoOliveira: and I am not one of the big players here
AdrianoOliveira: jurov: besides the taxes, if they try to sell/buy larger quantities they will move the market faster againt them
decimation: jurov: right you are slovak right?
decimation: AdrianoOliveira: 280 seems pretty low
jurov: yes, slovak :) and no ethnies here, only a few in capital
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 103200 @ 0.00026356 = 27.1994 BTC [+]
decimation: jurov: do many people speak german there?
AdrianoOliveira: decimation: it is indeed. most brazilians avoid the exchanges for several reasons... also people lost interest since the $1000/btc
jurov: dunno, germans/aunstrians prefer english
decimation: AdrianoOliveira: they only want to trade it if it is 'rich'?
jurov: decimation: they want to HODL
decimation: ;;ud HODL
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=hodl | hodl isn't defined. ... Ho Dip · hodizzle · hodjo · hodl · Hodlbups · Hodle · hodlickle · Hodling · HODMAN · Hodnet · Hodo · ho dog · ho dog cool · Ho Doh Doh Doh ...
jurov: obv that won't work if it's going down
AdrianoOliveira: decimation: lol... it seems they avoid buying it if it is cheap... it is better to buy high and sell low, hehe
decimation: I donno, it seems to me that as long as any money is going into bitcoin, the 'price' relative to fiat is going to increas
decimation: so if that's the case, bitcoin is 'on sale'
decimation: AdrianoOliveira: I've heard that during the hyperinflation in brazil, most people held gold in bank deposit boxes
jurov: decimation: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=375643.0;all
AdrianoOliveira: decimation: I was just a kid at that time so I can't confirm... but I remember for instance that people run into the supermarket on the same day they received they paycheck to buy groceries because prices used to double overnight
decimation: jurov: heh
decimation: AdrianoOliveira: right so people ought to remember that it's a good idea to HODL a strong currency
AdrianoOliveira: decimation: at least for the older ones that's true... people under 30 actually don't remember/didn't experience that
AdrianoOliveira: these just want to buy something that is skyrocketing to sell in a couple days for a profit
AdrianoOliveira: as it is not the case anymore, they are loosing interest on bitcoin
trinque recalls the rabid euphoria on /r/bitcoinmarkets
decimation: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 234.24, Best ask: 234.26, Bid-ask spread: 0.02000, Last trade: 234.24, 24 hour volume: 11363.15894438, 24 hour low: 231.72, 24 hour high: 235.24, 24 hour vwap: None
decimation: I remember the haters all complaining that bitcoin was 'not stable' ☟︎
decimation: now it's stable, and they want it to go to the moon
jurov: http://fortune.com/2015/05/20/reddit-free-speech-ellen-pao/ "misogynist and racist “subreddits” popping up frequently"
jurov: ofc
decimation: adriano: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-04-2015#1103354 http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-04-2015#1103356 ☝︎☝︎
assbot: Logged on 17-04-2015 09:25:16; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-04-2015#1103247 << imo brazil is headed straight for mexico fail mode.
assbot: Logged on 17-04-2015 09:25:23; mircea_popescu: this is not recoverable.
trinque: jurov: they've got some new SJW policy about being a "safe place"
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market buttfinex
gribble: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 234.24, Best ask: 234.36, Bid-ask spread: 0.12000, Last trade: 234.24, 24 hour volume: 11326.24280465, 24 hour low: 231.72, 24 hour high: 235.24, 24 hour vwap: None
BingoBoingo: ^ asking price goes up when you call the ticker and address your chosen market with its "butt" name
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 211120 @ 0.00025785 = 54.4373 BTC [-] {2}
AdrianoOliveira: decimation: our economy is a mess at the moment... and I don't think things will be back on track soon.
funkenstein_: decimation: I stumbled across you in an odd place
funkenstein_: "Major thirds move quickly around the 53-note circle of fifths, because of the decimation chosen to give preference to the fifth as representing the smallest change."
BingoBoingo prefers circle of circle of minor fifths, prefers the devil's note
BingoBoingo: 7th's major or minor also cool unless the rest of the chord is being filled in
mircea_popescu: https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/597631037569634304/p81c93Ed.jpg << dude dpb actually has a better beard than me
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re: proposed article: any value above 3 which satisfies the traditional recipe (where n = pq, public e is less than n-1, and relatively prime to p-1 and q-1) will work.
decimation: funkenstein_: hehe wtf
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i meanwhile added some more notes!
mircea_popescu: (just published it)
mircea_popescu: that is one of them
asciilifeform: neato.
decimation: funkenstein_: I was unaware of the musical use of the term
mircea_popescu: i always thought that's the reference o.O
mircea_popescu: how DID you come up with the nick then ? you terrorist you.
decimation: no it's a reference to signal processing
mircea_popescu: o
mircea_popescu: these two are related.
decimation: yeah kinda
decimation: 'drop N of K items'
asciilifeform: i always assumed it was the roman decimation, l0l
decimation: or kill a tenth of your legion
decimation: for failing
asciilifeform: for, properly speaking, being unlucky
decimation: it's a convenient double meaning
asciilifeform: (how do you make a legion luckier?)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 106850 @ 0.00025603 = 27.3568 BTC [-]
decimation: fight derpy natives instead of battle hardened germans?
asciilifeform: 'you go to war with the enemy you have, not the enemy you wish you had' (TM) (R)
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-05-2015#1141011 << shit i had noticed the traffic was drooping ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 21-05-2015 00:05:37; danielpbarron: https://twitter.com/infinitechan/status/601176574713569280 >> Load balancer crashed. I asked datacenter for assistance with it. It apparently overheated, fan might be broken. More updates to come.
mircea_popescu: copypaste our condolences!
decimation: http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=2339&pr=0 < "Neanderthals who survived into their thirties looked like they had been pulled out of a Humvee that was hit by an IED. One fellow was missing an eye, an arm, a thumb and a foot! These guys suffered from no known diseases. However, their main food [according to chemical analysis of their bones] was the auroch?basically a rodeo bull?which they had to kill be wrestling with it, stabb
copypaste: no problem :)
mircea_popescu: decimation fwiw, he's entirely nuts on that score.
mircea_popescu: yes neanderthals hunted. this was accomplished principally by outrunning smallish game. a sort of a dodo bird, some early antelope etc.
decimation: you don't think they killed a giant auroch by hand
trinque: "endurance hunting" was the thing right?
mircea_popescu: they surely did occasionally. neanderthals are kinda like monkeys.
mircea_popescu: but it was not, i would guess, above 10% of energetic input. prolly safe to say 1% or less.
decimation: well, if the practice continued into roman times, I wouldn't want to face some dude who wrested an auroch and won
mircea_popescu: decimation the derpy european bear (small, brown guy, about 4 foot tall standing) is to this day (or rather, the 1800s) an informal "absolute top of young male physical ability"
mircea_popescu: ie, 1 kid in 100 COULD wrestle one.
mircea_popescu: but the bear is playful. nobody is fucking wrestling a bull solo.
mircea_popescu: and especially not 50k eyars ago auroch.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 125641 @ 0.00026789 = 33.658 BTC [+] {4}
decimation: yeah it does seem rather dubious
mircea_popescu: it was a group effort, iof/when it happened, and oportunistic
decimation: also why not just spear/trap/arrow or whatever
mircea_popescu: (wounded animal, etc)
mircea_popescu: because they didn't have them or know how to use them.
mircea_popescu: understand : people of year 52015 will say "humans had internet" sure, they did. so ?
mircea_popescu: 99% of population uses internet exploder.
mircea_popescu: just because there's proof sylex spears were used by ns does not mean a superarmy of drilled regiments of standard-uniformed neanderthals.
decimation: that's a good point, but it seems that a deadfall is pretty obvious
decimation: or a pit with pointy sticks
mircea_popescu: you think animals are stupid ?
mircea_popescu: go hunt sometime.
mircea_popescu: you think a pit large enough to host a bull is trivial ? go fucking dig out a regulation latrine with a shard of dinner plate!
mircea_popescu: (or calculate the caloric value of the bull and the caloric expenditure of the dig)
decimation: ^ that's a good point
decimation: although an auroch would feed a tribe for awhile
asciilifeform: same while as feeds 1
mircea_popescu: no. rich meat is 3-4 calories / gram. a one ton bull made of no bones is worth 3-4Mcal tops.
asciilifeform: (meat sans preservation, 'parallelizes' but not 'serializes')
scoopbot_revived: The issue of exponents in RSA http://trilema.com/2015/the-issue-of-exponents-in-rsa/
mircea_popescu: yeah, asciilifeform has a point. eat it that day or lose it
mircea_popescu: (not to derpy bacteria. to jackals. they band together.)
decimation: yeah but pit can be reused
mircea_popescu: trinque yes, that's the word. and we know it is the fact of the matter from say the kidneys.
mircea_popescu: decimation again, animals are not stupid. it will identify your trap even when fresh. let alone when it stinks of death.
mircea_popescu: !up hondapiston
hondapiston: Hello :D
mircea_popescu: hi. who're you ?
asciilifeform mutters 'meowmix'
hondapiston: Michelle
decimation: are you a socialist?
hondapiston: No
decimation: \me imagines another 1000 log-lines
mircea_popescu: aite.
hondapiston: Are you?
decimation: nope
mircea_popescu: decimation she wasn't a socialist, she was a northernsystemalist. stop arguing about your imaginary political systems that don't exist!
hondapiston: Why not
decimation: heh
hondapiston: Good night
mircea_popescu: ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding
hondapiston: What
decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-05-2015#1140388 < note that her 'Nordic system' is simply derpy marxism that was recycled through the us as 'progressivism' and then indoctrinated by harvard circa 1945 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 20-05-2015 14:32:14; mircea_popescu: instead of parading them naked through the streets with a "i was a fucktard and am now sorry" thing around their neck, they let them sit around for twenty years coming up with reasons as to how their idiocy "wasn't really all that bad".
hondapiston: !s meowmix
assbot: 42 results for 'meowmix' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=meowmix
mircea_popescu: decimation nah, it's local brew.
hondapiston: I am meowmix
decimation: lol asciilifeform has it
asciilifeform: have i ever failed at meowmix, l0l
hondapiston: Quiet me
trinque: is "meowmix" #b-a's "anon" ?
mircea_popescu: basically, the east germans came up with a rationalization of their soviet time. "we really were right. excesses were made but..."
hondapiston: Yay
mircea_popescu: trinque just some guy, i dunno.
decimation: hondapiston: no you tell me why you lurk
asciilifeform: meowmix is, i think, a script.
mircea_popescu: nowai.
hondapiston: I use 4g on my nexus 6
asciilifeform: meowmix: if you get in wot, i will tentatively rate you.
decimation: it does reek of 'eliza'
hondapiston: Nexus 6 is the best phone
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> meowmix is, i think, a script. << More likely meat that fails turing test
mircea_popescu: meaf.
decimation: meowmix: is that why you are using an ipv6 address?
mircea_popescu: replacing the T for passing turing with the F for failing it.
hondapiston: I guess
asciilifeform: meowmix: if you can convincingly prove femality, a whole regiment will rate you, l0l
mircea_popescu: ^ from experience
hondapiston: Feminist's are stupid
decimation: so are people who inappropriately use apostrophes
mircea_popescu: i dunno man... they made me a sammich...
hondapiston: I hate feminists but most of all i hate homosexuals
decimation: meowmix, something draws you to this channel
mircea_popescu: how about the crab people ?
trinque: talk like crab! act like peo-ple!
hondapiston: Fuck homosexuals
asciilifeform: i would love to know what meowmix is, and who made it.
trinque: *walk, shit
mircea_popescu: doesn't that mean you LOVE them ?
asciilifeform: meowmix: droid, state your purpose.
hondapiston: Peace out i work at a guess statoon
hondapiston: Gas
asciilifeform: eh.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform maybe it's vexual.
asciilifeform: the antipodal vexual.
decimation: at least vexual kinda makes sense sometimes
mircea_popescu: mexual, vexual's evil twin
decimation: and uses more than 10 syllables
mircea_popescu: together, they form
felipelalli: !rate AdrianoOliveira 3 "Known in Brazilian community, and now I'm proud to see he on #b-a."
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/a723a3cfbf132739
mircea_popescu: THE COLOR MAUVE
felipelalli: !rate AdrianoOliveira 3 "Known in Brazilian community, and now I'm proud to see he on #b-a."
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/eca1220ff4d0be25
mircea_popescu: felipelalli quotes not rly necessary.
BingoBoingo: meowmix seems to consistently come from near danielpbarron's neck of the woods. Perhaps an ex?
felipelalli: !rate AdrianoOliveira 3 "Known in Brazilian community, and now I'm proud to see he on #b-a."
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/91d4164f91571469
trinque: strange the guy has a compulsion to come here, but mostly emits word salad
mircea_popescu: he prolly goes everywhere
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-05-2015#1141047 << and all of them, WITHOUT EXCEPTION insist they have some "one twu way" idiotic system. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 21-05-2015 02:22:08; decimation: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-05-2015#1140385 < free herring is nice, but plenty of other places have free herring/oil/usg favors
mircea_popescu: from saudi arabia to lybia, israel, pick it.
asciilifeform: trinque: i've entertained the thought that it is one of the ill-fated philippinos going off the reservation
mircea_popescu: it is the nature of human stupidity to ascertain positive outcomes to personal merit and negative outcomes to environmental hostility.
decimation: BingoBoingo: did you use a tool to find his ipv6 address assignment pool?
mircea_popescu: it's always the same iirc.
BingoBoingo: decimation: Nah, I just remember from when his phone carrier still had v4's to give him
BingoBoingo: Or her
trinque: asciilifeform: I'm not aware of it
BingoBoingo: or Xor
decimation: mircea_popescu: yeah that's a good point
decimation: even the us thinks that its political system is responsible for having vast natural resources/destroying the world twice
mircea_popescu: yep
asciilifeform: trinque: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=02-02-2015#1003223 << them. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 02-02-2015 23:04:03; mircea_popescu: it was highlighted by intel about two weeks ago, and we're generally tracing it to philippines "top quality" content farms working for a number of (mostly ct and wash based) pr firms.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform doesn't seem all that likely but who knows.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-05-2015#1141052 <<< ahahaha ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 21-05-2015 02:24:43; jurov: decimation: they are already in germany building nordic system
trinque: asciilifeform: huh, astroturfing meatfarms?
trinque: what a shitty life
BingoBoingo: trinque: They are a thing, welcome to glabalization
asciilifeform: trinque: aha. and now imagine if one of the slaves were to get bored and start playing with his console in unsanctioned ways
asciilifeform: drooling all over keyboard
BingoBoingo: All the gab you want at bargain prices
felipelalli: AdrianoOliveira: welcome! First Brazilian I see here.
mircea_popescu: trinque better than callcenter / myfreecams / wow gold baby.
mircea_popescu: felipelalli did you manage to rate him in the end ?
asciilifeform: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9EKh_lIEAE1O8u.jpg << obligatory
trinque: seen that, hilarious
asciilifeform: trinque: yeah it's a #b-a classic
mircea_popescu personally knows ex-slavegirl trainee. failed out of slavedom bootcamp, is now working callcenter. what most meat does irl, the world over.
BingoBoingo: !up felipelalli
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: generally speaking - what does 'failing' mean there ?
asciilifeform: similar to washing out of army ?
mircea_popescu: exactly what you'd expect. not actually being good enough. ayup
felipelalli: mircea_popescu: I didn't know. Thanks for the pro tip.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-05-2015#1141073 << eh, random people ended up with some dust dunno what to do with it. try amassing 1k, or even 10 btc and see what you have to pay. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 21-05-2015 02:36:17; AdrianoOliveira: decimation: at least for the Brazilian market I can confirm that... today's volume at local exchanges was about 280 BTC and I got a user offering me 140 out of exchanges
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-05-2015#1141102 << excelent example, if more wer eneeded, that soft consensus aka fecal matter. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 21-05-2015 02:48:29; decimation: I remember the haters all complaining that bitcoin was 'not stable'
mircea_popescu: the idea that "the people" should have a voice is not unlike the notion that cows should design their own barns.
mircea_popescu imagines a cow designed barn... walls of hay, roof of salt rock...
asciilifeform: if cows could speak, they might very well tell us that they believe themselves to have invented barns
asciilifeform: and designed the particular example they happen to inhabit.
mircea_popescu: and fucked napoleon's mother.
asciilifeform: ..., etc. aha.
decimation: ^ and designed the nordic system
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 140900 @ 0.00027579 = 38.8588 BTC [+] {2}
trinque: watching the phuctor story unfold as a bystander, it really opens ones eyes to the... call it participatory nature of a totalitarian system
mircea_popescu: aha. quite exactly.
mircea_popescu: the gestapo, is not pointed out enough, consisted of a small office with a few bureaucrats overwhelmed by citizen reports irl,
asciilifeform: anyone recall vaclav havel's grocer ?
trinque: makes total sense.
mircea_popescu: and a HUGE hallucination in those citizens minds.
asciilifeform: precisely same thing
asciilifeform: http://vaclavhavel.cz/showtrans.php?cat=eseje&val=2_aj_eseje.html&typ=HTML << see section III
trinque: ty
asciilifeform: ' It offers human beings the illusion of an identity, of dignity, and of morality while making it easier for them to part with them.'
mircea_popescu: havel definitely good read on this topic.
mircea_popescu: intelligent, educated fellow with direct access to the thing and a deep interest in documenting it. one rarely gets better.
asciilifeform recommends whole thing
mircea_popescu: and imo better than mr s, on account of no particular literary ambitions
trinque: "He does it because these things must be done if one is to get along in life." << this must be entirely automatic
trinque: the obedience mechanism, whatever that is
asciilifeform: trinque: see also orwell's 'duckspeak'
mircea_popescu: !s itself at the center
assbot: 0 results for 'itself at the center' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=itself+at+the+center
mircea_popescu: eh no wai.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=30-01-2015#998181 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 30-01-2015 05:50:13; mircea_popescu: the socialist state does not want a normally functioning society, but instead this stellar configuration where the state is at the center,
mircea_popescu: there we go
decimation: asciilifeform: is this havel guy kinda like a czech Solzhenitsyn?
mircea_popescu: this, incidentally, is why idiot rawls and his "veil of ignorance" is so important for the "nordic system" ie, socialism re-emergent. it's not the direct pseudo-ethics it derps around with that's the core there. it's the proposition, unwarranted and offensive, that people have no more substance than replaceable parts, and that their connections in the graph do not exist.
mircea_popescu: THIS is what that bullshit is selling, under a guise.
asciilifeform: archaeologists tell us about, e.g., ancient minoan 'palace economies' where -everybody- had to go to the central cloth dispensary to get woven cloth where gurlz toiled in the weaving hall. but those who sat in the palaces may have pictured themselves at the 'stellar apex' but had nothing on modern idiotron. minoans did not, afaik, have to go to the palace to get fucked.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform babylonians did, really.
mircea_popescu: hence all the prostitution cults.
trinque: only part I don't know about is whether this is a sort of inauthentic behavior on the part of the shopkeeper
trinque: seems obedience is a fine thing if the directions given to it are any good
mircea_popescu: trinque the socialist state is necessarily intellectually vacuous
mircea_popescu: for this reason it can never be any good
asciilifeform: trinque: not unlike the difference between car speeding along on a clean road, and engine on fire. in both cases, petrol combusts
mircea_popescu: (and it's necessarily vacuous for the reason discussed in "the problem of ideal systems")
decimation: yeah but as trinque pointed out earlier, the socialist state has the advantage of 'cheap coordination'
mircea_popescu: at the cost of necessary futility, yes.
decimation: it's really easy to sell the idea that the state will save you
mircea_popescu: "you can either buy this thing which works, or this thing which is free." "but does it work ?" "no."
mircea_popescu: the choice is then settled by... whether you can afford the first.
mircea_popescu: because if you can't, you ain't buying it. and if you ain't buying it, might as well take the 2nd.
decimation: ^ which is why fiat currency is so wrapped up in the socialist megastate
decimation: because it jams the markets with crazy nonsense
asciilifeform: i used to wonder whether the 'rawlsian ignorance' folks might -actually- believe in reincarnation. like hindu
asciilifeform: then realized that hindu, who believes in it, behaves very differently from 'rawlsians'
BingoBoingo: Facebook commenters, worse than tumblrinas
trinque: my thought was that the average person has always been this semi-mindless imitator, quite human to try to tend towards the middle, whatever that may be
trinque: a sort of swarming behavior
trinque: and that this historically would've been swarming around a command structure
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i would say they believe in... descuamation.
mircea_popescu: specifically, actual life is too much of a burden, so they wish to be... well killed, basically.
asciilifeform: iirc orwell had one of these
asciilifeform: 'short of death, the ultimate relinquishment of responsibility'
mircea_popescu: aha
mircea_popescu: see, the hindu psychological driver is coping with harsh environment. so that models the person one way.
asciilifeform: but specifically the 'you, yes you, -could- be a leprous beggar!' thing
asciilifeform: it only makes sense in a hindu-style cosmography
mircea_popescu: the western rapemeats' driver is on the contrary : look how much i should have achieved and how utterly i have failed at all of it.
mircea_popescu: depression incumbent then is resolved as a "yes but my REAL SELF has not come yet"
mircea_popescu: at which point the fantasy of magical body exchanges is, like the armchair generalship of you know, running mpex from the forum, a very natural escape.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47946 @ 0.00028011 = 13.4302 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: the fantasy, like magnet, has opposite pole of 'body exchange hell' as well as heaven
asciilifeform: where believer is invited to picture himself as blind from birth street urchin etc ☟︎
mircea_popescu: but you see, the idea being, that if they had no body AT ALL... they wouldn't have failed.
trinque: asciilifeform: this seems to be the victim culture thing
mircea_popescu: next best thing to no body at all being, a vague body which "might have been"
asciilifeform: the adventures of the human wavefunction, aha
trinque: I had a few lols today investigating the #diecisscum and #killallwhitemen things today
trinque: s/today$//
decimation: nah, I think the western statism is simple Christianity without god - 'god is dead, it's up to us to build heaven on earth'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform incidentally, i suspect a large number of the rapemeat, aka sjws, actually masturbate, at least mentally, to the idea of them being blind from birth street urchin sexually abused on a constant basis.
mircea_popescu: because IN THAT CONTEXT, they would be heroes
trinque: decimation: yup, this HR department morality thing is *so* protestant
mircea_popescu: worthy of their own pity.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: after christianity (and possibly mithraism before it) pushed this notion as far as the pedal would go, for 2k yrs, big surprise ?
mircea_popescu: no surprise at all
mircea_popescu: i think it's necessary. hegelhistory.
asciilifeform: sorta like forest fire is necessary.
mircea_popescu: quite.
mircea_popescu: forest fire is a necessary outcome of drought.
mircea_popescu: in a land which had biomass growth pedal to the floor.
decimation: in the western us, the most dangerous forest fires happen after lots of rain
trinque: and entirely absent any social structure beyond dysfunctional families
decimation: the verdant landscape suddenly dries and goes poof
mircea_popescu: decimation how does that work ?
mircea_popescu: oh, like a week after ?
decimation: well, dry spells immediately following wet spells
decimation: more like the next season
mircea_popescu: yeah.
BingoBoingo: <trinque> I had a few lols today investigating the #diecisscum and #killallwhitemen things today << I dunno why trans would label their opposition cis- because when talking isomers... transgeometric isomers tend to be poisonous, or at least less supporting of continued life than cis isomers.
mircea_popescu: irony is wasted on the stupid.
BingoBoingo: I kinda figure normal ordinary responsible people should refocus the conversation on dext vs. levo rotary. dext (normal) rotary amphetamine feels good man. levo just induces stress reactions and nihilism.
BingoBoingo: Lafonde guy is pretty good for the current events http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=2409&pr=0
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo personally, i find the aggitation of marginal women which i'd never fuck or empower anyway about how things should be very entertaining.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sjws, actually masturbate, at least mentally, to the idea of them being blind from birth street urchin... pet sayeth - summarized: 'more complicated than this. by and large, they diagnose themselves with imagined disabilities and enjoy wearing magic disability mantle.'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ayup.
mircea_popescu: manifestation, imo.
mircea_popescu: why's that girl not in here anyway ? not like ben_vulpes' gonna steal her away with his magic tango skillz...
decimation: I guess she blew her wad on 2000 lines or whatever
asciilifeform: can't be arsed.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: But the people pushing the trans/cis thing largely aren't women. They are some large women and some men who have modified their sex to a null state.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo whether they're women or not is not up to them. gender is something allocated to one. by, in this case, me.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> can't be arsed. << I can see why you get along.
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: iirc kakobrekla has one of these also.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo whether they're women or not is not up to them. gender is something allocated to one. by, in this case, me. << I see this.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: From what I understand kakobrekla and lampelina sleep in shifts.
asciilifeform: gender is something allocated to one << sure. declare a lump of earth 'fork'
asciilifeform: has forkness assigned.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what else do you suppose ru prison pederasty is if not allocated womanhood
asciilifeform: aha.
trinque wonders if there's such a thing as reproductive suicide, biologically speaking
decimation: 'time for yer turn in the barrel'
BingoBoingo: trinque: Menopause?
trinque: someone's too full of plastic or what have you, and suddenly they're transfluid-hyperqueer
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: though, to be fair, it is 'mined' rather than synthesized ab initio. mined by selecting folks with some inclination pre-existing
trinque: the psychology of some of these people just says "couldn't pull the trigger, didn't even have a gun"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know the thousand dollar whore joke ?
asciilifeform: hm?
BingoBoingo: lol
mircea_popescu: guy goes into mining town with a thousand dollars in gold.
mircea_popescu: straight to largest brothel. "i want a girl"
mircea_popescu: sure, be twenty, or an ounce.
BingoBoingo suspects asciilifeform told this one
mircea_popescu: no. i want a 1000 dollar girl.
mircea_popescu: sorry man...
mircea_popescu: he does this for a while, eventually a less scrupulous owner takes his thousand
mircea_popescu: girl in room "hello baby, where do you want to put it ? my ass ? my ..."
mircea_popescu: "shut up bitch. for a thousand dollars i make my own holes."
BingoBoingo: !s make my own holes
assbot: 1 results for 'make my own holes' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=make+my+own+holes
asciilifeform: l0lz
BingoBoingo: Oh twas mp who told it http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-02-2014#501993 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 13-02-2014 23:14:48; mircea_popescu: "babe, for 10k i make my own holes"
trinque: I have no issue whatsoever with homosexuality... this thing though where what... the actual reproducing members of the species must die?
mircea_popescu: trinque it IS an in joke.
trinque: that's a very particular reckless suicidality
BingoBoingo: http://www.radixjournal.com/blog/2015/5/18/whites-behaving-badly
mircea_popescu: you're taking it literally.
trinque: lol, oh, I am missing nuance?
mircea_popescu: two.
asciilifeform: trinque: are you familiar with j. b. calhoun's 'mouse utopia' ?
asciilifeform: http://www.physicsoflife.pl/dict/calhoun%27s_experiment.html
mircea_popescu: trinque you familiar with the concepts of jews and forced memes ?
trinque: no
mircea_popescu: lurkmoar :D
trinque: asciilifeform: and yes
trinque: "beautiful ones" and so on?
trinque: that's exactly what it seems like, some biological mechanism going off due to stress or who knows what
trinque: !s jews forced memes
assbot: 0 results for 'jews forced memes' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=jews+forced+memes
trinque: :'(
BingoBoingo: trinque: Homosexuality is a thing. A number of people do it with a strong irreplacable preferance and given the roster that includes turing it isn't a thing to demonize.
asciilifeform: http://www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/42/wiles.php << moar pics.
asciilifeform: 'Mice found themselves born into a world that was more crowded every day, and there were far more mice than meaningful social roles. With more and more peers to defend against, males found it difficult and stressful to defend their territory, so they abandoned the activity. Normal social discourse within the mouse community broke down, and with it the ability of mice to form social bonds. The failures and dropouts congregated
trinque: BingoBoingo: I'm not demonizing it at all, even waffled sufficiently to indicate this :D
asciilifeform: in large groups in the middle of the enclosure, their listless withdrawal occasionally interrupted by spasms and waves of pointless violence. The victims of these random attacks became attackers. Left on their own in nests subject to invasion, nursing females attacked their own young. Procreation slumped, infant abandonment and mortality soared. Lone females retreated to isolated nesting boxes on penthouse levels. Other males,
asciilifeform: a group Calhoun termed “the beautiful ones,” never sought sex and never fought—they just ate, slept, and groomed, wrapped in narcissistic introspection. Elsewhere, cannibalism, pansexualism, and violence became endemic. Mouse society had collapsed.'
trinque: but there's a specific blend of queer and self-destructive I've met enough times to know it's a thing
mircea_popescu: trinque the jew part i really can't explain. but a forced meme is what cancerous fags do when they try to create a meme. which is EXACTLY like what idiot kids do when they "create exchange", but exactly. ignorance so ignorant it doesn't grok why it's being ignorant but thinks itself clever.
BingoBoingo: Like anything else in the postmodern era... the fandom that attaches is...
mircea_popescu: now, the "kill men" bla bla is exactly this : a forced jew meme for that particular subculture.
trinque: ah yeah, that makes sense
cazalla: omg channel is full of.. http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lon8fsN34w1qdhrwbo1_500.jpg
mircea_popescu: trinque so your original interpretation is not unlike saying 4chan is antisemitic.
trinque: it's a fair point
mircea_popescu: it'ds not even wrong.
trinque: yours I mean
trinque: cazalla: ahahaha
BingoBoingo: Oh, looks like /btc/ fell of of 8ch
mircea_popescu: onoes
decimation: from my point of view the whole 'gay rights' thing looks to be about bossing around whitey who cowers in learned helplessness
trinque: it does, the in-group signaling thing makes a lot of sense too though, and furthermore that things you can only say in your in-group are the best signals
decimation: that at trying to immanentize the eschaton
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Still there, just not poplar enough
BingoBoingo: Need moar http://www.thujagardens.com/LombardyPoplar.html
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 123059 @ 0.00027471 = 33.8055 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: But not really Lombary Poplars suck. Grow too fast, insufficient trunk strength, gets blown over on the first strong wind. And if it doesn't blow over dies at 30 anyways because fuck you.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 131505 @ 0.00027468 = 36.1218 BTC [-] {3}
decimation: yeah poplars are shit wood
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it is an excellent model for the reddit/tumblr/etc failure modes.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo poplars are the hitchiker whore of trees. cheap, available and ineffectual.
decimation: note that the failure mode with the mice isn't too little information - it's too much
mircea_popescu: " more mice than meaningful social roles. With more and more peers to defend against" << that's the hot core of failure. ☟︎
asciilifeform: decimation: failure mode - as with most mechanisms under the sun - is from operation outside of envelope.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I dunno hitchiker whores can make it to 40 and become settled whores unless they roll a Ted Bundy
mircea_popescu: i guess there's that.
BingoBoingo: And poplars too have a purpose. If you are otherwise broke, have rain, and really want firewood for next winter...
decimation: !up AmbitionzAzARida
decimation: !up evian11_____
BingoBoingo: !up evian11_____
BingoBoingo: It's just... really hard to trust a tree that struggles to live twice as long as a dog
decimation: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2015/05/nicholas_vincen.html < "The myth, even as early as the 12th century, that the English are freeborn people--it's a load of nonsense; they come from Troy; they are the exiles from ancient Troy defeated by the Greeks: they go off and they found this kingdom of England from which they eventually get a king called Arthur. But they are a freedom-loving people. They live under liberty and freedom. Of
decimation: english 'liberty' as founded in the magna carta is just repeating asperations until they become true
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: hard to trust a tree that struggles to live twice as long as a dog << brings up a point re: another tree. in ru, folks traditionally are fascinated with the huge birch forests. but consider, birch is a short-lived 'pioneer species'
asciilifeform: it lives where earth was disrupted, destroyed
asciilifeform: where - typically - pasture was left fallow
asciilifeform: on account of famine, war, plague
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: There's a couple of older birch trees near here. Exceptional because... don't look much like the other birches.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: as a boy, i took a 1200km train ride. nothing but birch.
BingoBoingo: My biggest annoyance at this phase of the summer's landscaping gigs is actually hickory. Lives forever, quality wood... but... The squirrels plant it. It lays low for a couple years and then zoom towards the heavens.
BingoBoingo: And because squirrels plant it before cats eat them for winter sustenance, squirrels plant them in the worst places
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: looked rather like this: http://poselok1928.ru/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/112.jpg
asciilifeform: as far as eye can see.
BingoBoingo: That is pretty beautiful. Probably will be for another decade or two
decimation: I'm a sucker for a large stately sycamore tree
BingoBoingo: decimation: sycamore is even choice wood for some applications. Also low on litter and grows big.
decimation: yeah, butcher blocks
BingoBoingo: Also countertops, just fuck it. Granite bleeds radon and marble stains. Just install block and sand, then replace in a decade.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10598 @ 0.00028144 = 2.9827 BTC [+]
asciilifeform wonders what old-fashioned headsman's chopping blocks were made of
BingoBoingo: Even birch is useful if you want to build a brownwater vessel
decimation: eh, for countertops use quartz
BingoBoingo: But poplar is only useful for filing insurance claims and watching your fuel wood burn too fast.
BingoBoingo: decimation: porous, loses to red wine
asciilifeform: wai wat
asciilifeform: no.
asciilifeform: quartz porous ?!
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I thought they braced behind the chop
asciilifeform: no more porous than your house windows
asciilifeform: or light bulb
BingoBoingo: http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/2703805/white-quartz-countertops-and-staining
asciilifeform: even glass - stains
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: If ideal quartz were marketed for this purpose no staining
asciilifeform: not perfectly smooth, aha. but not porous
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: braced behind the chop << old-school chopping blocks did not have 'chin rests' but were something like butcher blocks
decimation: I never heard of quartz staining
BingoBoingo: Oh, but countertop quartz, are you expecting a single piece? Most nao are chip and epoxy abominations unless you beat the greek (stone people are almost always greek) appropriately
decimation: yeah, it's got epoxy
decimation: also it takes no maintenace and looks nice
decimation: actually if you want functionality - stainless steel
decimation: easy to clean, antibacterial
BingoBoingo: ;;google chromium poisoning
gribble: Chromium Toxicity Clinical Assessment - History, Signs and Symptoms: <http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=10&po=11>; Chromium toxicity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromium_toxicity>; chromium poisoning - chromium related illness - injured by chromium: <http://www.thompsons.law.co.uk/workplace-illnesses-and-diseases/chromium-related- (1 more message)
decimation: oh good lord
decimation: how much chromium you gonna pick up from a stainless pot?
BingoBoingo: However much is on the surface
BingoBoingo: Wear items are expendable
BingoBoingo: And engineering is an art of compromises
BingoBoingo: Oh, and reddit is downs agan
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69098 @ 0.00025648 = 17.7223 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: !up gavmatic
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51000 @ 0.00026387 = 13.4574 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20000 @ 0.00026387 = 5.2774 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: troy ?! wtf.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/more-factored-rsa-keys-and-assorted-other-considerations/#comment-114287 << achtung asciilifeform
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I think he prefers the salutation "panzer" when so hailed
mircea_popescu: panzer asciilifeform
BingoBoingo: So, as of a few hours ago this laptop is nao on its 4th cooling fan.
mircea_popescu: hot stuff
BingoBoingo: Seriously. Demanded fans every ~14-16 months on nigbuntu and nao wants to move to a 6 month schedule on OpenBSD
BingoBoingo: I blame Bitcoin
BingoBoingo: in a good way
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77800 @ 0.00026385 = 20.5275 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: quartz chips under the blade if not epoxied
BingoBoingo: It does. And if epoxied it not only chips, but tunnels. Too brittle
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell gabriel_laddel The more time I spend with nonegenarians the kinder dementia pugilistica sounds
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: http://netsledov.ru/issledovateli-bezopasnosti-vzlomali-4096-bitnye-rsa-kluchi/ moar ru. apparently they really like alf. ☟︎
BingoBoingo: alf is one of them
BingoBoingo: alf is more Russian than them prolly
BingoBoingo: Best I can guess alf is cold war relic Yeltsin was too drunk to deactivate and Putin found too cute to turn off
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 167200 @ 0.00025706 = 42.9804 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: mike_c "легальные резиденты" my ratting comment @ the_scourge ? lol
BingoBoingo: So, "Guardians of the Galaxy" least unbelievable of the Disney/Marvel movies
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20000 @ 0.00025758 = 5.1516 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 135920 @ 0.00025633 = 34.8404 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: !up gabriel_laddel
gabriel_laddel: Oh hell yeah
gabriel_laddel: ty
BingoBoingo: gabriel_laddel: Sometimes other senses fail first
gabriel_laddel: https://plus.google.com/photos/101394835895920000944/albums/5938074007124872641/5938073881911435698?pid=5938073881911435698&oid=101394835895920000944
gabriel_laddel: ^ see the first comment on the photo
gabriel_laddel: BingoBoingo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NOncx2jU0Q << Why they're trying to replicate the human hand/arm exactly idk
gabriel_laddel: one could do *much* better quite easily.
BingoBoingo: Eh, the rougher part is people with the grey and white matter in tact with the senses failing
gabriel_laddel: Hey if you want to die, I'm not here to stop you.
mircea_popescu: how goes gabriel_laddel
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: finished an (interactive) Architectural tour of Masamune.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: need to find a box to hack the install proc on
mircea_popescu: o hey.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: if you know someone in the SF Bay area who would throw me a computer, that would be tight.
gabriel_laddel: I'm putting off messaging a friend atm
gabriel_laddel: also, I'm broke, otherwise I'd just buy one.
mircea_popescu: can't say as i do...
mircea_popescu: but listen, if you're broke is thsi sort of grand architectural commitment the bestest policy ?
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: I've been broke for like a year now
mircea_popescu: "i've had cancer for like a year now". good for you but eventually it'll kill ya.
gabriel_laddel: So... you remember the tide usd vs. usd usd discussion?
mircea_popescu: yeh
gabriel_laddel: I'll be fine
mircea_popescu: aite.
gabriel_laddel: The only reason I do what I do is.. for the money
mircea_popescu: masamoney ?
gabriel_laddel: yea
mircea_popescu: you wanna run me through that again ?
gabriel_laddel: which part.
gabriel_laddel: trinque: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/gabriel-laddel/masamune/master/introduction.lisp
gabriel_laddel: trinque: So I see you like CLIM
mircea_popescu: the money part.
mircea_popescu: im not going to go into how "Most ideas humans would like to
mircea_popescu: ;;; communicate using the computer are quite simple." is both factually incorrect and a very poor premise.
gribble: Error: ";" is not a valid command.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30000 @ 0.00025758 = 7.7274 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel
mircea_popescu: !gettrust assbot gabriel_laddel
assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user gabriel_laddel: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 4 via 4 connections. |http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=assbot&to=gabriel_laddel | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/gabriel_laddel/
gabriel_laddel: I've been broke for like a year, working on that which interests me so that I can make large sums of money rather than the 70-100k/yr you get programming. Also, money is just a system for communicating ideas about value - if one has value it can be turned into money and vice versa.
gabriel_laddel: Masamune is going to make someone a lot of $
gabriel_laddel: ask trinque how much better CLIM is than anything else on Earth
mircea_popescu struggles to follow.
mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel
mircea_popescu: are you in like a public library in guatemala or something
gabriel_laddel: at home with an unpaid AT&T bill
gabriel_laddel: which is seriously fucking up my ability to speak atm
gabriel_laddel: they block various websites, but not all the time?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 74050 @ 0.00025612 = 18.9657 BTC [-]
gabriel_laddel: I can get on duckduckgo, but not google, but can get on google+?
gabriel_laddel: Idk
mircea_popescu: okay so... how;s this oging to pay your internets bill ?
mircea_popescu: america's top&trolls lol
mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel
gabriel_laddel: it isn't
gabriel_laddel: I'm clearly valuable, other people take care of me.
mircea_popescu: as in, urmom ?
gabriel_laddel: nah
gabriel_laddel: just people I've met since moving to Cali
mircea_popescu: anyway. so how did you come up with the 20 figure ?
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: sorry, 20?
mircea_popescu: see, this is the golden rule of magic numbers : if you use one and then need context to indentify it, you've misused a magic number.
mircea_popescu: medium sized organizations (1-20 persons).
mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel
mircea_popescu: nuts.
gabriel_laddel: yeah
gabriel_laddel: After ~20 people you lose the ability for everyone to know everyone else.
gabriel_laddel: you can't convince 30 people who don't know lisp to use it.
mircea_popescu: that's called dunbar's number and is ~100 not ~20
mircea_popescu: unless you're retarded
gabriel_laddel: well, a software development team has different dynamics
mircea_popescu: how have you established this ?
gabriel_laddel: working on a software development team
mircea_popescu: one ?
gabriel_laddel: two
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 216250 @ 0.00025438 = 55.0097 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: nuts.
gabriel_laddel: The 20 number isn't a hard limit by any means, and I suppose I should change it because I pulled it out of my arse.
mircea_popescu: exactly.
mircea_popescu: "From this point forward it is assumed you have set aside some time to learn Masamune and need no justification for as to why any particular abstraction has been chosen." << so is this a cult then ?
gabriel_laddel: Nah, justification is available, I just don't want it cluttering the presentation.
mircea_popescu: that is a very different statement from the statement you're actually making.
gabriel_laddel: :/ I don't immediately see how that is, but OK.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: Is the argentine legal system as derpy as the rest of the country?
mircea_popescu: no, it's much worse.
mircea_popescu: "HotSlut22" #P"/root/quicklisp/local-projects/masamune/images/hot-slut22-avatar.png"))) o.O
gabriel_laddel: Yup.
gabriel_laddel: I needed an avatar for an example WoT program and dipped into the xxx folder
mircea_popescu: github is so fucking retarded
gabriel_laddel: as is git
mircea_popescu: "Contributions in the last year". what the FUCK does this mean.
mircea_popescu: "i dunno man, i just like counting"
gabriel_laddel: haha
mircea_popescu: here's a count of the items i've been counting : 833
mircea_popescu: now divide it by 7 and make a graph!
gabriel_laddel: Graphs are the future yo
mircea_popescu: fake meaningless numbers processed as if they weren't. fucking fiat mindrot
gabriel_laddel: Data visualization will save the seas of failed "college students".... or so they hope.
mircea_popescu: this user has produced 77 productions and consumed 52 consumptions. 991 users approve.
mircea_popescu: politicomathsocioscience 101 for the new generation : let there be user A who has 43 positive meaningless ticks and 22 negative meaningless ticks ; and user B who has 12 PMT and 17 NMT. who would win in a fight between homer simpson and a himalayan sherpa ?
mircea_popescu: a : user B, because his PMT are cars, whereas user A's PMTs are empty cherio wrappers.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: if you've got some spare time on your hands, (Mc)CLIM is neato
mircea_popescu: im testing eulora atm.
mircea_popescu: "how many lcd screens do you get by adding seven oranges to a bucket of water ?" "8"
gabriel_laddel: I didn't know the eurola crafting system was so advanced
mircea_popescu: >1k items o.O
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 198750 @ 0.00025541 = 50.7627 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> that's called dunbar's number and is ~100 not ~20 << See how Dunbar's number works is you can know 150 people, harass 1500 people, but only count on at most 15 to follow instructions
mircea_popescu: it gets complicated.
BingoBoingo: Indeed
BingoBoingo: White people had a big gunfight in Texas over the weekend without civilian casualties and now everyone derps about big bad biker gangs
BingoBoingo: Poplar discourse is stupid
gabriel_laddel: Isn't Texas in a standoff with the Federal gov. atm?
BingoBoingo: That actually might be over or ongoing.
BingoBoingo: Weekend's drama was apparently biker gang splinter group was being confronted by their sponsors and likely DEA agent ran over some dude's toes, then hemophilia
BingoBoingo: Just assuming DEA, because gunfight...
BingoBoingo: !up gabriel_laddel
gabriel_laddel: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=11-04-2015#1097710 << If I take different 3 buckets of paint and mix them into a homogeneous color is the system more or less ordered? ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 11-04-2015 20:39:18; mircea_popescu: africa is actually, at least from what i've observed, extremely ordered.
gabriel_laddel: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=11-04-2015#1097619 << Thanks, that sentence was wrong. I was attempting to say was "Regular expressions cannot respect a language's syntax short a full parser+printer". This is an extremely important point, addressed by Erik in his perl treatise: ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 11-04-2015 19:58:13; ben_vulpes: "Regular expressions cannot respect a language's syntax (detect false positives short a full parser)" << this strikes me as a special case of the "cannot simulate a universe without a universe" claim.
gabriel_laddel: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3163193555464012@naggum.no.html http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3244575386963745@naggum.no.html http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3142145710427254@naggum.no.html
BingoBoingo: Depends on the strength of your microscope
Apocalyptic: ;;later tell asciilifeform re pgpdump it actually displays details of HPA's invalid subkey, but for some reason doesn't print the associated keyid even once so my grep missed it
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4300 @ 0.00025541 = 1.0983 BTC [+]
gabriel_laddel: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-04-2015#1097935 << I'm not envisioning a great new wave of lisp on UNIX. Most people, when they use software, never question foundational abstractions. I can hack lisp, but cannot hack the myriad "dodo languages" UNIX is written in (and retain my sanity). If people are going to be writing code it should be in ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 12-04-2015 02:36:29; asciilifeform: to envision a 'wave of the future' that includes c and unix - entirely other.
gabriel_laddel: CL. Additionally, I want people who have no prior knowledge of computing to develop taste. Gedankenexperiment: spend 10k USD, purchase stock PCs, preload with something somewhat sane (Actually complete Masamune/bitcoin-assets distro) and distribute to a class of kids "learning to program". IMHO they'll play around with it, do their work and then p ☟︎
gabriel_laddel: romptly forget about it. Actual people don't forget the experience of using something interesting (see your own hypercard post). I want them to be absolutely fucking incensed when they encounter windows or the like. Also, I love being able to kill/yank text in the browser + Emacs + CLIM. Also, money.
gabriel_laddel: trinque: is that like when gabriel_laddel reads loper-os then screams about lisp at everyone? << After using CLIM, do you feel like screaming at people?
gabriel_laddel: 03:55:16 mircea_popescu: or for that matter, predict the next one, so you know where not to go o.O << Cincinnati
mircea_popescu: i still don't see the money part. this is art, at best.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: I'd argue with you, but it'll be less labor intensive to just wait until you use it (or even a select codebase like CLIM)
gabriel_laddel: everything will "click"
gabriel_laddel: and you'll say something similar to trinque "I have lived in a river of shit my entire life"
gabriel_laddel: at least, this is my prediction
mircea_popescu: well, i don't code much, so it's unlikely to make much difference to me. but in any case, this is how a good joke goes, or a good book. good books don't make much money.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: if you had Eurola shipped in 1/2 the time this would matter to you, no?
mircea_popescu: notrly. the sticking point atm is the art and my game design, not the code.
mircea_popescu: i'd be pretty pissy if it was waiting on code.
mircea_popescu: but w/e, im a bad example. suppose for someone it matters, and it saves them 10 billion pula.
mircea_popescu: so they install it and run it, and that's that.
mircea_popescu: how do you capture a fraction of the 10 bn pula ?
gabriel_laddel: I took an early demo (long before I discovered CLIM) to large company X, demonstrated all the information I could collect, that I could write lessons integrated into the whole desktop environment. This company has the sneaking suspicion that people sort of dick around during the onboarding process and there is a huge variation in how long people ta
gabriel_laddel: ke to complete it. Via Masamune it is possible to find out what these people are doing, optimize confusing paths etc.
gabriel_laddel: I plan to write custom (source included) extensions for select parteners
gabriel_laddel: eventually, if possible sell a 3D 'CLIM'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54800 @ 0.00025366 = 13.9006 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: so rhel basically
mircea_popescu: aka, art (in the "what is art" on trilema sense - work for the lord).
mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel
mircea_popescu: well... hopefully you have an artist's stomach
mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: exactly
mircea_popescu: who knew computing will spawn its own minstrelsy
gabriel_laddel: lol
mircea_popescu: (historically this is the EXACT contribution of the artist to the world, your "I have lived in a river of shit my entire life" or as jourdain put it, "i had no idea i was talking in prose".)
gabriel_laddel: Mathematica makes money, people say the exact same things about their software "I have lived in a...", but their product is braindamaged.
mircea_popescu: mathematica only makes money because it's braindamaged imo
gabriel_laddel: do explain
mircea_popescu: not causation, but unbreakable correlation
mircea_popescu: ie, you can't have the things that make it make money without the causes of the braindamage
gabriel_laddel: Symbolics Inc. made quite a bit of money - their products were not braindamaged. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: you might be misinformed.
mircea_popescu: they failed for purely sales reasons.
gabriel_laddel: Yep.
mircea_popescu: so no, they didn't make money ☟︎
gabriel_laddel: The real question is - how much did they spend on real estate in CA?
mircea_popescu: ok, that also
mircea_popescu: idiots.
gabriel_laddel *shrugs*
gabriel_laddel: Again, I would happily pay 10k-20k for a computing environment that doesn't waste my time. ☟︎
gabriel_laddel: it doesn't exist.
mircea_popescu: i thought you had bills in arrears. how would you pay a 10k bill ?
gabriel_laddel: I've not always been broke
gabriel_laddel: I just happen to be atm
mircea_popescu: so you would have, rather than would ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92432 @ 0.00025366 = 23.4463 BTC [-]
gabriel_laddel: if sane computing existed I would (update and then) send out my resume
mircea_popescu: provided, of course, they let you work on it only
gabriel_laddel: not at all
gabriel_laddel: I'd happily work at pretty much anything to make money for a sane computer.
mircea_popescu: so imagine it exists and they don't let you work on it oh oh oh i see.
mircea_popescu: so imagine it exists and it costs the money you have + 1.
gabriel_laddel: yeah?
mircea_popescu: i think for the record most capitalists work on this concept
gabriel_laddel: ^ this is my impression
mircea_popescu: "the world sucks, and id pay any sum for one that didn't. well... suppose it exists and it costs what i have +1 ... best get to work then"
gabriel_laddel: That sentence is somewhat confusing.
mircea_popescu: which part ?
gabriel_laddel: "that didn't. well... suppose it exists and costs what I have +1"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 91145 @ 0.00024411 = 22.2494 BTC [-]
gabriel_laddel: My position is simply that I can be broke and work on what I want to work on without being terribly inconvenienced
mircea_popescu: 1. world sucks ; 2. capitalist would pay any sum for a world that doesn't suck ; 3. sadly that world doesn't exist ; 4. but the capitalist simply presumes it exists, and it's for sale for the money he has + 1 ☟︎
mircea_popescu: so 5. he goes to work, makes more money. this of course scales up the price.
mircea_popescu: so he spends his life chasing the world that doesn't suck, a dollar at a time.
gabriel_laddel: Hmm.. I think 4 should be "the capitalist simply presumes it *will* exist"
mircea_popescu: why?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95100 @ 0.00025541 = 24.2895 BTC [+]
gabriel_laddel: If it doesn't exist, and other people want it - go make and sell it.
mircea_popescu: he;s a capitalist not a metaphysicist.
mircea_popescu: in any case, this approach illuminates the fundamentally pessimistic outlook of the socialist.
mircea_popescu: (which is why "does" not "will" - the bourgeois has no adherence to metaphysics.)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 103450 @ 0.00025714 = 26.6011 BTC [+] {2}
gabriel_laddel: "he;s a capitalist not a metaphysicist. " << I don't understand how this follows
gabriel_laddel: This model is bizzare. So if I'm a capitalist I should make money to purchase that which does not exist?
gabriel_laddel: admittedly, you can hire people
gabriel_laddel: but in this particular situation, who?
gabriel_laddel: I'd end up having to type for them, and at that point, wtf I'll just do it myself
gabriel_laddel: Though I'll note the "chasing a better world a dollar at a time" makes a great deal of sense, unless one lives in the peculiar bezzle-buck nightmare we currently inhabit.
gabriel_laddel: story time: I ran into loper-os after a stint programming clojure as a day job. I ended up getting evicted for playing around with CL instead of paying rent. I got another place, found trilema+#bitcoin-assets and... got evicted again. ☟︎
gabriel_laddel: alright, goodnight.
assbot: [MPEX] [FN] [F.MPIF] 15000 @ 0.000207 = 3.105 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MG] 18000 @ 0.00009 = 1.62 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: if you're a capitalist everything exists
mircea_popescu thinks gabriel and janna would make a perfect couple.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 138350 @ 0.00025037 = 34.6387 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67765 @ 0.00025758 = 17.4549 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28350 @ 0.00025744 = 7.2984 BTC [-]
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: im not going to go into how "Most ideas humans would like to communicate using the computer are quite simple." is both factually incorrect and a very poor premise. << I didn't see this prior to our conversation, courtesy of not paying my bills. This is actually the crux of it, so let's revisit. You've publicly stated something to th
gabriel_laddel: e effect of "linux devs are idiots and I'd like a judiciously defaulted gentoo please". The question is, at what point does this become something that you (or others ben_vulpes, mod6, asciilifeform etc have already wasted time derping with gentoo) would pay for? People pay for (what they see as) quality software - sublime text makes money, as does
gabriel_laddel: Intellij. The problem with these (ALGOL based) businesses is that their organizations ossify because of the sheer number of people that must get involved in any sort of "automation of programming". This is inescapable if you choose to use ALGOL. I realize that this isn't a result you believe exists, but reality doesn't care. Aside from software dev
gabriel_laddel: s, industrial chemists, architects, research physicists etc would like to have a plug-and-play solution for going about their work. There is money to be made here. Afaik the only way to get there is: 1. revert to paper 2. teach *everyone* what an AST is, choose a language, add AST traversal mechanisms and write *everything* in it (this will continu
gabriel_laddel: ally burn some of Earth's brighter minds, someone needs to think about the gnarly parser semantics when the language's syntax is updated - my experience is that you can't pay people to care) 3. use lisp. People have already tried 1 & 2, and the result is inevitably that even if they make money (Mathematica, Microsoft, Oracle...) the foundations of
gabriel_laddel: shit catch up with them and we end up where we are today - nothing works and everyone insists that it does because they've bought into a lie. As for "is both factually incorrect and a very poor premise", thank you, will update.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: if you're a capitalist everything exists << this makes no sense to me.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu thinks gabriel and janna would make a perfect couple. << I'm almost insulted.
mircea_popescu: lol but why ? she wouldn't let you get evicted.
mircea_popescu: the problem with your theory is exactly that : it's a theory. life on earth is emergent pattern in chaos, not sensible arrangement.
chetty: or chaos emerging from a pattern
mircea_popescu: hehe
mircea_popescu: now, the reason the quote is factually incorrect is pure godel. what you imagine as "simple" is only simple because you're using an unsimple language. otherwise, if you face the problem directly, it's very complex.
mircea_popescu: moreover, and this is the important part, it's a poor premise because only idiots start their stuff with "most people"
mircea_popescu: forget most people. you've not even made something and are already blunting it ? make it be good first, most people after.
chetty: no such thing as 'most people'
mircea_popescu: and as to "if you're a capitalist everything exists" - it's a subtle point, but in order for one to be a capitalist, the requisite premise is "that which is is and necesarily is, and that which is not is not and necessarily is not", ie, parmenides.
mircea_popescu: so no, for a capitalist it is eminently impossible for something to not be and then come into being.
mircea_popescu: only discoveries. no inventions.
mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: lol but why ? she wouldn't let you get evicted. << I think she'd actually evict me, then decry that there were homeless programmers.
gabriel_laddel: I'm not a socialist in anycase, I support my own being evicted.
gabriel_laddel: I just happen to enjoy reading.
mircea_popescu: you know womenz can be fiercely loyal in spite of their better knowledge.
mircea_popescu: generally, it doesn't work out for them
gabriel_laddel: Heh, women tend to not be loyal to me.
mircea_popescu: now why would that be
gabriel_laddel: my experience suggests that one must fuck them for this to be the case.
gabriel_laddel: only discoveries. no inventions. << Okay, this makes sense - but someone must discover.
mircea_popescu: yeah. children.
mircea_popescu: the historical utility of children for human society is that they are more than happy to stick random things in their mouth.
gabriel_laddel: !s is a child
assbot: 62 results for 'is a child' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=is+a+child
mircea_popescu: they were used as exploration drones, basically. see what fruit is poisonous etc.
gabriel_laddel: This is basically my current utility afaik
mircea_popescu: apparently.
gabriel_laddel: !up CheckDavid
gabriel_laddel: !up CheckDavid
gabriel_laddel: !up Adlai
gabriel_laddel: !up Guest14108
gabriel_laddel: !up shesek
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 155300 @ 0.00025415 = 39.4695 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 85950 @ 0.00025805 = 22.1794 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 212200 @ 0.00024976 = 52.9991 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu got it
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-05-2015#1141568 << that thing is copy-pasted all over ru spamosphere, with scarcely any variation, and no mention whatsoever of the updates. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 21-05-2015 06:59:12; mircea_popescu: http://netsledov.ru/issledovateli-bezopasnosti-vzlomali-4096-bitnye-rsa-kluchi/ moar ru. apparently they really like alf.
asciilifeform: and speaking of which, the paulgrahamian blackout against the story is nearly total.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105250 @ 0.00024961 = 26.2715 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: entirely absent from the peanut gallery, and voted down into oblivion in the particular spots where i personally tried to insert it.
asciilifeform: (the update, that is)
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-05-2015#1141789 << somehow suspected this. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 21-05-2015 10:04:19; gabriel_laddel: story time: I ran into loper-os after a stint programming clojure as a day job. I ended up getting evicted for playing around with CL instead of paying rent. I got another place, found trilema+#bitcoin-assets and... got evicted again.
asciilifeform wonders how many he led into perdition
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-05-2015#1141741 << complicated. see below ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 21-05-2015 09:39:50; gabriel_laddel: Symbolics Inc. made quite a bit of money - their products were not braindamaged.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-05-2015#1141745 << smbx spent a fortune on r&d. they tried to amortize this cost any way they could, but nothing worked - other than peddling golden toilets to usg and subsidiaries. when political fortunes changes - it was over. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 21-05-2015 09:40:23; mircea_popescu: so no, they didn't make money
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yes. of course. when caught lying... freeze.
asciilifeform: so yes, they made neat things, no, they didn't figure out how to pay for it. and no one was ever able to repeat because this has not changed - no one today can afford the necessary degree of non-retardation.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it works for them, no ?
mircea_popescu: no.
asciilifeform: the buggers are, likely, very busy atm - preparing their 'we did it before'
mircea_popescu: it didn't work for karpeles, it didn't work for lawsky, it ain't gonna work for graham, or for anyone else.
mircea_popescu: it only works when "everyone". there's no everyone.
asciilifeform looks forward to the demolition of graham et al
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-05-2015#1141750 << him and six other folks. others just want to play 'solitaire' apparently. ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 21-05-2015 09:42:27; gabriel_laddel: Again, I would happily pay 10k-20k for a computing environment that doesn't waste my time.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell gabriel_laddel: i must confess that i personally would not pay -anything- for a unix of any description whatsoever.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-05-2015#1141772 << the interesting thing is the blindness of this stereotypical character to items which -could- exist but cannot be brought into existence through traditional methods - planning, hiring, management. ergo items which could exist if you gave $raggedlispdervish a bathtub of benjies no-strings, do not and cannot exist because this is rather like asking $capitalist to stick hi ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 21-05-2015 09:47:10; mircea_popescu: 1. world sucks ; 2. capitalist would pay any sum for a world that doesn't suck ; 3. sadly that world doesn't exist ; 4. but the capitalist simply presumes it exists, and it's for sale for the money he has + 1
asciilifeform: s cock in dulap.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform do i recall correctly that at some point they squandered a mn or so on some dumbass real estate deal ?
mircea_popescu: symbolics that is
asciilifeform: they did!
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: engineers suck at management is the long and the short of it.
asciilifeform: and often blamed for killing'em. but this is not entirely unlike a boozer blaming a particular bottle of rotgut 20 yrs ago for his death.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my argument is that if smbx had -not- sucked at management, we would not be talking about their products today.
asciilifeform: they would've sold unix boxes.
asciilifeform: like sun et al
mircea_popescu: eh, alt-history. who knows.
mircea_popescu: im not familiar enough with the text & its context to call it
asciilifeform: sorta like the only other outfit of that period, thinking machines corp.
asciilifeform: -also- sold unique machine (you needed a smbx lispmach to run it, in fact, as front-end) but -also- comically mismanaged and squandered most of its dough on french chefs, etc.
asciilifeform: i do not believe the correlation to be pure accident here
mircea_popescu: i am more familiar with games market 20 years later by a long shot.
mircea_popescu: this scenario played itself there numerous times : people with great ideas sucked at business.
mircea_popescu: however, because > 100 tries, rather than the 3-4 you see in os market,
mircea_popescu: there WERE cases which'd have been the "Competent symbolics that didn't do unix"
mircea_popescu: like... maybe 3.
asciilifeform: i'm not certain this is an accident. folks who are good at business, know better than to try selling lisp to mass market
mircea_popescu: you understand good games are a lot more elitist than good os right ?
asciilifeform: possibly
mircea_popescu: because os has at least theoretically utility.
asciilifeform: but game is also much cheaper on the expenditure side of things
mircea_popescu: nobody plays a game because "i hate it but whatever, it works"
asciilifeform: l0l
mircea_popescu: yes, it is, which is how we got 100 tries rather than 3.
asciilifeform: 'farmville' ?
mircea_popescu: however, that doesn't matter - how cheap it is in absolute terms. whether you have 100 outfits each owing 1mn or 5 outfits each owing 20mn
asciilifeform: (hated but played. or those ipad casinos from last night's thread)
mircea_popescu: i would say this is not hate but pretend-hate.
mircea_popescu: like feminists "hating" men
asciilifeform can see how this might be
asciilifeform: incidentally, symbolics was not managed by engineers. it was managed by business expert types who were mislead by engineers into believing that the cost of the research could be amortized via 'honest work.' the lisp machine vendor which -was- managed by engineers into a very early grave, was lmi corp.
asciilifeform: (yes, the one in rms's tales)
mircea_popescu: so it ... WAS managed by engineers.
mircea_popescu: engineer-bitch topping from the bottom still counts.
asciilifeform: i suppose it does!
mircea_popescu: you familiar with the fascinating case of fred quimby ?
asciilifeform: not afaik
mircea_popescu: ok, this will be enlightening.
mircea_popescu: you ARE deeply, intimately touched by his work
mircea_popescu: because fred quimby is the man that made cartoons be a meme. tom and jerry, loony tunes, all of it.
mircea_popescu: cartoons exist in your mental universe because fred quimby lived at some point.
mircea_popescu: now this man... he was a sales manager. hired away iirc from walmart, or some such, to run an animation studio.
mircea_popescu: which he ran exactly like a fish market. opressing the ever-so-creative creative ppls, and famously lacking any sort of a sense of humour
mircea_popescu: or even any interest in the subject of his profession.
mircea_popescu: then, after decades, and NINE oscars, ie, his weight in fucking gold, he retired.
mircea_popescu: the studio was taken over by the jenius creative minds in questions. you probably also know their names, because they are intricately connected to the absolute worst shit animation ever saw.
asciilifeform: possibly on account of not being a deep scholar of this subject, i dare to guess that it was a 'balance of power' thing.
mircea_popescu: the jetsons. scooby doo. take your pick
mircea_popescu: wacky fucking races.
mircea_popescu: if there was ever a bad cartoon, hanna & barbera made it.
mircea_popescu: and then went bankrupt.
mircea_popescu: twice
mircea_popescu: and never got an oscar ever again.
asciilifeform: the artists had enough pull to avoid being steamrollered by fishmonger. fishmonger had sufficient balls to avoid being steamrollered by artists.
mircea_popescu: western animation would languish until someone signed mr spiel to do 100`000 movies a year.
mircea_popescu: possibru.
asciilifeform: this existed elsewhere - various u.s. chemical and misc. r&d corps of the '40-60s come to mind
mircea_popescu: indeed.
asciilifeform: in other news, the buggers know no bounds, http://www.networkworld.com/article/2925215/security0/new-protocol-from-guardtime-hopes-to-unseat-rsa-for-authentication-digital-signatures.html
asciilifeform: 'consider this excellent snake oil to replace tired old rsa' aha.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the amusing tactical implication here is that well... they actually would have loved to say rsa is bad.
asciilifeform: naturally.
mircea_popescu: it's like... that's where the entire "mp is a troll" thing came from.
asciilifeform: hence the immediate angle of 'omg1111!!!111!11 rsa broke'
mircea_popescu: shit fucking hurt, "you seriously mean he makes us choose between this and that ?!?!"
mircea_popescu: i must admit i had a lot of fun with it.
asciilifeform: http://eprint.iacr.org/2014/689 << what they actually did. think 'deedbot' but since bitcoin never existed on their planet, they demand crippled computers with super seekrit drm cpu.
asciilifeform: on planet usg, it is always 1992
asciilifeform: sorta like poor old schmuck with dementia is always whatever his age of last controlled bowel movement, mentally
asciilifeform: (or imagines)
mircea_popescu: too bad so sad etc
asciilifeform: 'Like Bitcoin, Black Lantern uses an open-ledger system in which derived hash-value trees are maintained by Guardtime in order to monitor for changes. In the case of Bitcoin the values represent transactions; in the case of Guardtime, it’s the hashed signatures of the assets being tracked.' << tr0l0l0l
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: BLACK LANTERN dude!!1
mircea_popescu: like a black hawk crashed into green lantern.
mircea_popescu: fucktards, these people.
asciilifeform: well-funded fucktards.
mircea_popescu: yeah. the sorta-fat, cowardly, euglena-scented kid everyone beat the shit out of in school.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49600 @ 0.00024961 = 12.3807 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: euglena? the microbe ?
mircea_popescu: protist, yeah
mircea_popescu: ;;google "cu miros de euglene"
gribble: MO-Piftel Cenzurat de Darius Iurca - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43tDr9XndEE>; Galben de metil - Wikipedia: <http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galben_de_metil>; Murray Rothbard - Wikipedia: <http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Rothbard>
mircea_popescu: romanian is expressive what can i tell ya.
asciilifeform: l0l
davout: ;;ticker --market buttfinex
gribble: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 235.38, Best ask: 235.43, Bid-ask spread: 0.05000, Last trade: 235.46, 24 hour volume: 12953.63746798, 24 hour low: 233.2, 24 hour high: 236.5, 24 hour vwap: None
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: expect a great many of these 'will unseat rsa' idiocies.
mircea_popescu: well now that it's broken...
asciilifeform sorta surprised they didn't push the 'broken' narrative further
mircea_popescu: what, and crown us ?
mircea_popescu: nah, it's gotta be 2nd pass, with the usual vague baked in
mircea_popescu: "recent advances" bla bla
asciilifeform: ... and peddle some 'lantern' replacement idiocy, why wouldn't they
mircea_popescu: the other half is pushing for simply outlawing it, so.
mircea_popescu: as you say, balance
asciilifeform: the 'soft power' weasels tend to eat the 'hard power' shoot'em-all types.
asciilifeform: just as the 'make plebes stupid & pliant' folks ate the 'pinkerton' pour la canaille - la mitraille types.
mircea_popescu: myeah
asciilifeform: (see limonov for mega-exploration of this)
asciilifeform: not much balance, really. eventually everything softens into the soft fecal matter (tm) of 'soft power'
asciilifeform: hence how the '90s 'crypto wars' ended with 'crypto is usg-legal but you can't buy an actual computer' thing
mircea_popescu: the idea is to avoid splashing
asciilifeform: splashing?
mircea_popescu: yes. as the us turns into shit, the balancing act consists in avoiding splashing
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 141700 @ 0.00026009 = 36.8548 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform is marvelling at the totality and cleanliness of the blackout. virtually no traces of The List anywhere.
asciilifeform: anywhere public, that is
asciilifeform: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:aeLkbmNdBooJ:forum.piratenpartei.de/viewtopic.php%3Fp%3D222843&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1 <<< grenzenlosnaiv ?
asciilifeform: https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=A50591247C8E37A64117B74F78AB527059E13694 << just the 2 of us.
asciilifeform: https://twitter.com/grenzenlosnaiv << possible candidate, german, 'pirate party'
wyrdmantis: Goodmorning/goodnight
wyrdmantis: breaking http://bitstein.org/notebook/ben-lawsky-has-defected-to-bitcoin/
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34300 @ 0.00026302 = 9.0216 BTC [+] {2}
asciilifeform: wyrdmantis: disingenuous headline. bureaucrats do this faux switcheroo all the fucking time.
wyrdmantis: ;bc,stats
asciilifeform: but they are only ever on one 'side.'
wyrdmantis: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 357427 | Current Difficulty: 4.880748724468138E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 358847 | Next Difficulty In: 1420 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 1 day, 14 hours, 32 minutes, and 43 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 48731864673.8 | Estimated Percent Change: -0.15494
wyrdmantis: so is neither bad nor good news?
asciilifeform: wyrdmantis: about as interesting as a burglar getting out of jail to work at an alarm company
asciilifeform: (which he will eventually rob)
wyrdmantis: asciilifeform: i see, it's hilarious
asciilifeform: the inevitable question which comes to mind is - why should we give a damn about this particular burglar? what world records of theft, or even of daring, did he break?
asciilifeform: as far as i can tell, he's just another larcenous piece of shit
bitstein: asciilifeform: good points. I posted it mostly as a reaction to the knee-jerk reddit response getting all butthurt that he would do such a thing. Of course, indifference may be the best response.
asciilifeform: bitstein: the best reaction to bureaucrats is the centuries-old formula popularized by solzhenitsyn - 'не верь не бойся не проси' ('don't believe'em, don't fear'em, don't ask [anything] of them'
asciilifeform: )
bitstein: That's great.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 448400 @ 0.00026496 = 118.8081 BTC [+] {5}
chetty: http://www.thedailysheeple.com/cops-who-flash-banged-infant-are-blaming-the-baby_052015
asciilifeform: chetty: gestapo could have entered a picture of mickey mouse as a defense. and will win
asciilifeform: chetty: because their having to even file a defense is a mere formality. what, you imagine that court will say 'gestapo can no longer throw grenade before entering suspect house' ?
asciilifeform: picture if the judge were to find for the plaintiff
chetty: indeed
asciilifeform: quite likely the response would be something like andrew jackson's 'marshall has made his verdict, now let him enforce it.'
asciilifeform: (worcester v georgia)
asciilifeform: 'entering a room is always done in pairs. first mr. grenade, then - you.' (ru, apocryphal)
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> as far as i can tell, he's just another larcenous piece of shit << well, he's one of the first crop of derpy bureaucrats who thought they;'re gonna leverage the fiat state into a position of bitcoin power in a hostile manner.
mircea_popescu: he was defeated. no big whoop, for anyone except them.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 123100 @ 0.00026797 = 32.9871 BTC [+] {2}
williamdunne: chetty: Is that satire?
chetty: well I recall the incident about the kid getting hurt a while back, not so sure about the court case
williamdunne: Sure no I know about the baby I just meant their response
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77000 @ 0.00026812 = 20.6452 BTC [+] {2}
chetty: well I guess one would have to go read the actual court documents to be sure
mircea_popescu: !up tcrypt
mircea_popescu: trinque check it out, deedbot joined the evil side ?
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 291 @ 0.00476312 = 1.3861 BTC [-] {6}
mircea_popescu: !up s7r
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, chetty: looks genuine. http://www.scribd.com/doc/265760507/Flash-Bang-Reply
mircea_popescu: eh by now the us police's got to this point where a) they're dumb enough to crash into each other and b) when it happens they'll write the wind a ticket for reckless endangerment.
chetty: asciilifeform, well that is certainly proof we have passed thru the looking glass, if anyone needed proof
asciilifeform: chetty: vestigial things, no longer having a logical reason to exist, tend to get trimmed down and eventually disappear. like cavalry sabres. in this case - the pretense of 'law'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a) they're dumb enough to crash into each other << recall last year's shootout featuring solely police ?
mircea_popescu: no ?
asciilifeform: (iirc on two opposite sides of an obstacle, parked cars)
mircea_popescu: my dementia progresses unabated
asciilifeform searches logs in vain
asciilifeform bbl
lobbes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-05-2015#1133388 << lmao. Idk why this cracks me up so much ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 15-05-2015 23:16:59; BingoBoingo: ;;later tell mircea_popescu qntra banner http://i.imgur.com/8mYHVc0.png
davout: News, views, & RABBITZ
mircea_popescu: "Autobiography is only to be trusted when it reveals something disgraceful. A man who gives a good account of himself is probably lying, since any life when viewed from the inside is simply a series of defeats. However, even the most flagrantly dishonest book (Frank Harris's autobiographical writings are an example) can without intending it give a true picture of its author. Dali's recently published LIFE comes under t
mircea_popescu: his heading. Some of the incidents in it are flatly incredible, others have been rearranged and romanticised, and not merely the humiliation but the persistent ORDINARINESS of everyday life has been cut out. Dali is even by his own diagnosis narcissistic, and his autobiography is simply a strip-tease act conducted in pink limelight. But as a record of fantasy, of the perversion of instinct that has been made possible b
mircea_popescu: y the machine age, it has great value."
mircea_popescu: one wonders what orwell would have thought of twitter.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 347506 @ 0.00026531 = 92.1968 BTC [-] {2}
scoopbot_revived: There's no progress without control. http://www.contravex.com/2015/05/21/theres-no-progress-without-control/
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2841 @ 0.00044706 = 1.2701 BTC [+] {5}
davout: fluffypony: i'm in ur meetup, stealing mozilla's wifi
davout: first speech is quite derpy
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 110500 @ 0.00026218 = 28.9709 BTC [-]
danielpbarron: !up somethingsomethi
somethingsomethi: thanks daniel
danielpbarron: you are darksoul from gfy?
somethingsomethi: no
somethingsomethi: whos darksoul
danielpbarron: someone who shares your IP, -
somethingsomethi: clicked a link
somethingsomethi: thats probably why
danielpbarron: what's up, you like bitcoin or what?
somethingsomethi: interested
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 101000 @ 0.00025466 = 25.7207 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 115450 @ 0.00024885 = 28.7297 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14250 @ 0.00024857 = 3.5421 BTC [-]
danielpbarron: !up ascii_field
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 134800 @ 0.00026546 = 35.784 BTC [+] {4}
ascii_field: ;;later tell mircea_popescu msg ack'd. mega-l0l!
gribble: The operation succeeded.
trinque: gabriel_laddel | story time: I ran into loper-os after a stint programming clojure as a day job. I ended up getting evicted for playing around with CL instead of paying rent. << don't ever do this; if you can't make money doing it, you're not the guy to do it.
trinque: "I can get us to Mars! It will only take more than any of us have."
trinque: if you're taking us to the damned promised land, better be able to complete the journey
trinque: you may at best go work for the guy who can
trinque: after he beats the word "waste" into your skull
ascii_field: trinque: i dare say that -no one- can make money doing -this- ☟︎
trinque: I don't believe that.
trinque: or on the other hand, if the only route to mars is starvation, maybe we've got no business aiming for mars just yet
jurov: how doest that compare?
trinque: ascii_field: my observation working for a few brilliant guys is that the unwillingness to break the grand vision into chewable pieces results in failure
jurov: can one go to mars by carefully cultivating their mind? ☟︎
trinque: jurov: I am saying that if you think your problem is above economics, you're wrong.
trinque: that said things like cardano look like chewable pieces to me
jurov: go tell that to any of the geniuses who pursue clarity at the cost of starving
jurov: that they are wrong!!!
trinque: what does their clarity get me?
trinque: how does this relate?
jurov: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_died_of_starvation
trinque: its as if someone's laying bricks one by one, and the guy with the vision for the road says "NO, YOU MUST LAY THEM ALL AT ONCE!"
trinque: example, our "end user programming environment" (bastard son of spreadsheet) would've made a fine for-profit database editor
trinque: every other product in its space is garbage
trinque: but the guy was dead set on building this whole relational coding environment for... I don't know, your grandmother, anyone, "the people"!
trinque: actually better example than one road, a highway system
trinque: connecting two cities is useful even if the whole system isn't done.
jurov: if noone can snatch it from him repackage and sell, it§s your fault
trinque: heh, CLIM!
jurov: have you read the log about quimby/hannah&barbera?
jurov: exactly the same case
trinque: I'll take a look
trinque: http://trilema.com/2014/fred-quimby-and-ancient-evils/ << ?
trinque: and then whatever convo this brought about
jurov: and it was rehashed literally tonight
trinque: gabriel_laddel | I'm clearly valuable, other people take care of me. << this fucking kid
trinque: these types if they can be managed at all have to be under the command of someone who doesn't give a shit about software as art
ascii_field: it isn't about 'art.'
trinque: assbot: near as I can tell this masamune is going to make gabriel_laddel rich because it "has" value
trinque: guy's never sold a thing in his life
trinque: !up ascii_field
trinque: and also he "has value" because people are feeding him for free?
ascii_field: trinque: laugh if you like, but my issue with gabriel_laddel is precisely that he is willing to compromise -too much- rather than not enough. ☟︎
trinque: absent this are the economic considerations
trinque: so if there's no path from here to there, it's not a thing
ascii_field: the path is me with 20 years of living expenses paid. or one of possibly 3 other fellas
trinque: considering it as solely an engineering endeavor, you're probably right
trinque: that's a couple million bezzlars tops
trinque: not nearly the umpteen trillion I've heard before
ascii_field: trinque: no, it's approximately this sum in -actual money-
ascii_field: which is a very different matter.
ascii_field: (though whole debate is about whether we ought to fly to alpha centauri or proxima centauri. neither is on the table)
trinque: ascii_field: in your mind is cardano not this kind of pragmatic first step towards future hardware production? ☟︎☟︎
trinque: because considering that I don't see how we disagree
ascii_field: trinque: not related
trinque: just sounds like you're not thinking like a business about that
ascii_field: cardano is made of off-the-shelf parts.
trinque: I'm not talking about the hardware
trinque: er I mean, the engineering of it
trinque: but rather the logistics and cash-flow required to take on the other things
ascii_field: trinque: well, it is also deadly-practical, like a luger
ascii_field: nothing 'blue sky' about it.
trinque: sure, and I hope you charge me a good amount of margin atop cost to own one
trinque: and perhaps other deadly practical things
trinque: being able to control hardware via gpg-o-gram remotely, suuuuper appealing
ascii_field: point is, hard to compare it with project that requires quite possibly more than one lifetime's worth of ab initio research
ascii_field: speaking of,
ascii_field: rng crate, i'm told, has shipped out.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43722 @ 0.00024764 = 10.8273 BTC [-] {2}
trinque: nice
trinque: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/21/nsa-plan-find-osama-bin-laden-infiltrating-medical-supply-chain/ << subtext, NSA caught Bin Laden ☟︎☟︎
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 173361 @ 0.00024694 = 42.8098 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 108542 @ 0.0002471 = 26.8207 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 150397 @ 0.00025136 = 37.8038 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13220 @ 0.0002637 = 3.4861 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 122100 @ 0.00025735 = 31.4224 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 89444 @ 0.00026277 = 23.5032 BTC [+]
trinque: https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/36ru89/just_days_left_to_kill_mass_surveillance_under/crgjx6s << check out this motherfucker recommending people smartphone apps to protect their sekurity
jurov: it's himself?
asciilifeform: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: let him sign it
ascii_field: otherwise it's hitler talkin'.
ascii_field: (leaving aside the question of whether mr s speaks for hitler)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 111500 @ 0.00026948 = 30.047 BTC [+] {2}
trinque: who knows, but snowden TM says call your senator and install appz
ascii_field: or reddit says.
ascii_field: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-05-2015#1142132 << they could've simply poisoned him then ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 21-05-2015 19:03:42; trinque: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/05/21/nsa-plan-find-osama-bin-laden-infiltrating-medical-supply-chain/ << subtext, NSA caught Bin Laden
ascii_field: (or what, usg hasn't graduated from hogwarts yet and doesn't do poison?)
jurov: "shot and bury at sea" instead
trinque: the whole thing is spectacle
trinque: http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/20/politics/gyrocopter-pilot-indicted-on-six-counts/ << two felony counts -- one count of "operating as an airman without an airman's certificate" and another count of "violating registration requirements involving aircraft,"
trinque: notably the felonies lack anything about super-top-govt airspace, those were the misdemeanors
trinque: the felonies are simply... we are defining your remote controlled toy as an aircraft
ascii_field: see also, mathias rust ( http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/the-notorious-flight-of-mathias-rust-7101888/?no-ist etc )
trinque: oh shit, nevermind, it was carrying *him*
trinque: so his felony is being a goddamn badass that built his own gyrocopter?
trinque: they're terrified of capable people
trinque: ascii_field: incredible, I'll read it
ascii_field: http://www.usua.org/Rules/ruleandregs.htm << if his machine was under the weight limit - no license needed ?
ascii_field: (doesn't get him out of the trespassing charge, but 'flying without license')
trinque: does look like an ultralight, doesn't it?
ascii_field: aha
trinque: the thing's a chair and propeller
ascii_field: 'In the room waited Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi, who had stopped by for a photo op and was posing a challenge for officers discussing safe ways to get the prime minister out of the building if necessary.' << oh noez, poor muppet might lose a string or two
williamdunne: !rated davout
assbot: You rated user davout on 27-Apr-2015, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: paymium.
williamdunne: !rated fluffypony
assbot: You rated user fluffypony on 20-Apr-2015, with a rating of 3, and supplied these additional notes: Points out stupidity, and promotes what matters while maintaining his humanity.
ascii_field: incidentally, rust's flight caused the sacking of pretty much the whole of soviet air force brass.
williamdunne: !rate davout 3 paymium, met IRL
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/3ff1e6491614d87e
ascii_field: who, if anyone, will usg sack ?
ascii_field: betcha - no one. ☟︎
williamdunne: !v assbot:williamdunne.rate.davout.3:c906cea9df253411b904bef8d1ed9d67b4e4e03bed7e9bcd0ecbbcc71ec21ab5
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for davout from 1 to 3 with note: paymium, met IRL
williamdunne: !rate fluffypony 5 Met IRL, OpenRigs, Monero, etc
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/516bc5950c6d97d0
williamdunne: !v assbot:williamdunne.rate.fluffypony.5:1f6d4e5752dae5fb67b0f36c9a8602478011f173e8805d71ad11c9cb70326a17
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for fluffypony from 3 to 5 with note: Met IRL, OpenRigs, Monero, etc
williamdunne: !up ascii_field
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 143286 @ 0.00027208 = 38.9853 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 108190 @ 0.00027363 = 29.604 BTC [+] {2}
ascii_field: https://keyserver.pgp.com/vkd/GetWelcomeScreen.event << apparently this still exists.
ascii_field: ;;later tell mircea_popescu https://keyserver.pgp.com/vkd/VKDVerificationPGPCom.html << mega-l0l
gribble: The operation succeeded.
ascii_field: 'Because the PGP Global Directory allows users to manage lost keys, it cannot use cryptographic mechanisms for verification. Instead, like mailing list servers and other public Internet services, the PGP Global Directory verifies a key by requiring a response to a verification email sent to each email address specified on the key.'
ascii_field: ahahahahahahaha.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 183601 @ 0.00025953 = 47.65 BTC [-] {2}
BingoBoingo: !up ascii_field
trinque: holy shit that's rich
ascii_field: 'The PGP Global Directory is not a replacement for the PGP Web of Trust, but an additional mechanism to provide a global foundation for the PGP Web of Trust that enables opportunistic secure communications.'
ascii_field: tr0l0l0l!
ascii_field found this by looking at The List, of course ☟︎
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70000 @ 0.00027177 = 19.0239 BTC [+]
ascii_field: https://twitter.com/pgpcorp << lulzy usgization
ascii_field: http://csrc.nist.gov/groups/STM/cmvp/documents/140-1/140sp/140sp1325.pdf << aaaand it was bought right after nist-ized
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24806 @ 0.00027177 = 6.7415 BTC [+]
trinque: !up Hasimir
trinque: Hasimir: register a key and I'll give you a 1 to self-voice in the future
Hasimir: cool, thanks
Hasimir: though I thought it had my key ... no matter
ascii_field: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://blog.spaf.us/post/119499216803/two-security-researchers-break-rsa-4096-bit-keys << hard to even believe. someone ought to contact the man (assuming he exists in life) and ask, if he shat this out
gribble: The operation succeeded.
Hasimir: the sole purpose of that directory key is to provide minimal (stress minimal) proof that the entity controlling an email address approves the key as theirs, no more
Hasimir: the other key (kind of) like it is the Hushmail DEMO key
Hasimir: anyone not using hush can get their key signed by that by registering their key through the hushtools.com site and later retrieving the signed copy
Hasimir: the other reason for using that, though, is to allow hush users to encrypt to you
trinque: !gettrust Hasimir
assbot: Trust relationship from user trinque to user Hasimir: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. |http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=trinque&to=Hasimir | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/Hasimir/
Hasimir: which really surprises journalists
trinque: !rate Hasimir 1 new blood
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/d1f2f90d631e4799
trinque: !v assbot:trinque.rate.Hasimir.1:ee9a4ae47c1dbfa21b646a35781ef846e516c54a915fa94d0a8160270a65b2f8
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 1 for Hasimir with note: new blood
Hasimir: cheers :)
Pierre_Rochard: !up ascii_field
Hasimir: anyway, things like the directory key and the hush key are about the same as keybase.io
Hasimir: well, keybase might be a little more useful (but would be better if it did not try to manage private keys for anyone)
ascii_field: Hasimir: idk why anyone would want to pwn it, either. ask the fine folks who made the faux key for it..
Hasimir: well, current theory from werner is it's just a software bug
Hasimir: https://lists.gnupg.org/pipermail/gnupg-users/2015-May/053644.html
ascii_field: Hasimir: lie, and beneath contempt.
ascii_field: Hasimir: examine the evidence for yourself. tell me it is a bug.
Hasimir: erm ... do you use gpg or something else to access openpgp functionality?
ascii_field: as, other meaning here
ascii_field: 'About 30 key with a valid key binding but with a partly duplicated
ascii_field: subkey where both have a valid key binding signature. Most likely a software bug.' << possible
ascii_field: and aha, they are already starting with 'That reminds if of a private discussion I had last autumn. Some guy
ascii_field: downloaded most RSA keys from a keyserver and tried to factor....'
ascii_field: just as i predicted
ascii_field: shitgnomes and their 'it didn't happen. if it happened, it doesn't matter. if it matters - one of -our- people did it first, of course!' ☟︎
ascii_field: 'Incidentally, I met one of the other guys with a broken subkey at
ascii_field: LinuxCon and he told me that some folks complained that they can't encrypt to him. For other this was no problem, though.' << this part should surprise no one. the boobytrap works on -someone-. ☟︎
ascii_field: mircea_popescu ^^^
Hasimir: he was copied in on the email directly
Hasimir: but has since said he's not interested (the follow up by DKG has that) ☟︎
Hasimir: anyway, until the specific cause is identified, it can't be called either way
ascii_field: aaaand for some reason this only happens to interesting keys, aha
ascii_field: like debian signing key
ascii_field: and anwin
ascii_field: cosmic rays and memory corruption, apparently, can not only create valid self-sigs, but spare boring folks like you & i.
Hasimir: but what makes them interesting? just that it happened?
Hasimir: didn't spare all the boring folks ☟︎
Hasimir: Charly Avital is on that list too
Hasimir: and he's a 70-year-old hobbyist
ascii_field: Hasimir: who said boring
ascii_field: what kind of hobbyist ?
Hasimir: just the local computer club kind
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 101100 @ 0.00027177 = 27.4759 BTC [+]
Hasimir: and you said boring, like 7 lines up
ascii_field: Hasimir: you claimed that '70-year-old hobbyist' is necessarily boring
ascii_field: i - disagree.
Hasimir: oh, I see what you mean now ... so how are his keys more interesting than ours?
trinque: that would be the thing to answer
ascii_field: https://lists.gnupg.org/pipermail/gnupg-users/2015-May/053644.html << koch claims that memory corruption can result in 1) corrupted key that is 2) has valid (!!!) signature. this is an insult to every intelligent reader and beneath contempt.
ascii_field: or perhaps he does not claim this, but passes off as plausible
Hasimir: specifically in relation to merging keys, not in general
ascii_field: he must think we are morons.
ascii_field: to even give this hypothesis the time of day, just imagine.
ascii_field: aaaaand 'we did this all, yes, believe us, we just never bothered to mention in public'
Hasimir: proving or disproving it would require merging multiple keys across a broad range of openpgp implementations and operating systems ☟︎
ascii_field: Hasimir: the null hypothesis is not 'miracle happened.' this is not how it works.
Hasimir: yes, but it doesn't prove your malicious bastards theory either
Hasimir: no one on that list has said, "this is the answer" - they're discussing theories and you're attacking them for doing so, it seems a bit odd ☟︎
ascii_field: Hasimir: you are asking me to believe that a large number of moduli, carefully crafted such that in mutilated form, they are factorable -and- have valid sigs, is something that could somehow happen by accident.
ascii_field: and that the presence of several 'interesting' names in the list, is also merely fortuitous.
ascii_field: and that the burden of proof somehow lies on the reasonable, literate folks who can see, plain as daylight, that this is as likely as a bullet spontaneously materializing inside lincoln
Hasimir: Phil Zimmermann isn't on that list, neither is RMS or even a former PM of my country (and yes, it was a real key)
ascii_field: mircea_popescu is also not on list
ascii_field: what of it.
ascii_field: no one said it includes whole planet's worth of 'cool kidz'
Hasimir: there are plenty of more interesting keys to target than that list
trinque: Hasimir: now who is speculating
ascii_field: and this is supposed to be an argument in favour of miracle ??!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95021 @ 0.00027685 = 26.3066 BTC [+] {2}
Hasimir: trinque, true, but if the malicious bastards theory is the most viable answer: what is the motive?
trinque: that's not the question to ask
trinque: the question is "what do these keys have in common?"
Hasimir: what is then?
ascii_field: Hasimir: damned if i know. i - only see the bullet.
Hasimir: ah
trinque: and that isn't currently known
ascii_field: Hasimir: good number of german pirate party folks
trinque: great reason to keep digging though
ascii_field: suggests to me - BND. ☟︎
Hasimir: trinque, indeed
ascii_field: (who else gives a phuck about german pirate party)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82929 @ 0.00028027 = 23.2425 BTC [+]
Hasimir: ascii_field, we certainly don't, it's why we split from ppi
Hasimir: I need to script that, clearly
ascii_field: wai wat
ascii_field: who is 'we'
Hasimir: ppau
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 99347 @ 0.00028027 = 27.844 BTC [+]
Hasimir: oh, did I forget to mention, I'm the treasurer of pirate party australia ☟︎☟︎
ascii_field: https://lists.gnupg.org/pipermail/gnupg-users/2015-May/053648.html
ascii_field: 'Is it possible that a keyserver running the old, buggy PKS code
ascii_field: (v. 0.9.something) mangled these keys?' << are they idiots or just pretending ?
ascii_field: mangled and signed with valid sig, aha
Hasimir: it's just a question, what's the problem with asking it?
Hasimir waits for the penny to drop ...
trinque: "teach the controversy" tactic
ascii_field: ^^
Hasimir: hardly
Hasimir: I can assure you that post in particular is from someone who just wants to know the answer
trinque: on the one hand, how something functions, on the other, what someone intends
ascii_field: someone who, charitable interpretation is, did not take even five minutes to think.
ascii_field: 'perhaps the bullet was always in lincoln, from birth'
trinque: the vast majority of responses I've seen to this are of the "not worth looking into" variety
jurov: what if the answer is no, keyserver can't ever produce valid sig in this case?
ascii_field: 'perhaps it fell from the moon'
trinque: not "this is why this is bullshit"
jurov: Hasimir, how can keyserver produce signatures of anything?
jurov: *valid* ones
Hasimir: jurov, it can't, but if the sig was already there, but other data got mangled, it might account for some things
jurov: what things?
trinque: if a factored subkey has a sig from the master key wtf
Hasimir: the lack of data indicating cipher prefs on a key
ascii_field: and why would a 'bug' affect ONLY (!!!) 1) moduli 2) m^d mod n 3) exponent, which is ALWAYS 281479271743489 after the transformation, regardless of what it originally was 3) ALL FIELDS ARE CORRECTLY SIZED ☟︎
ascii_field: motherfuckers
trinque: I'm an idiot and I understand that much
Hasimir: such as in the case of the key dignork and I discussed earlier
trinque: !up ascii_field
ascii_field: ty trinque.
jurov: Hasimir, so I take some key, mangle "data indicating cipher prefs" and whatnot, and viola, valid signature without original key's owner knowledge?
Hasimir: no idea
ascii_field: and we are to believe that this happens by accident, with no other bits flipped. ever.
Hasimir: I never claimed to have answers, but you guys are locked into the "it must be a conspiracy" mindset and assuming any criticism is part of the conspiracy ☟︎
ascii_field: incidentally, i just walked the totality of sks db looking for -all- rsa keys with pub-exponents equal to 281479271743489.
ascii_field: they are -all- in the set from the heuristic published on mircea_popescu's www.
jurov: Hasimir: you're too willing not to think about it and handwave it away
Hasimir: the weird pattern thing?
ascii_field: Hasimir: yes. you can write a proggy to create this type of key from any rsa pubkey you like.
Hasimir: jurov, not so, if that were the case I wouldn't be here discussing it
ascii_field: aaactually
ascii_field: Hasimir: please realize that so far you are setting off every possible alarm in my head, 'disinfo agent'
trinque: incidentally I don't recall anyone here making specific claims about who is behind this
ascii_field: Hasimir: also realize that we are talking about an experiment which -any- interested reader, at this point, could replicate.
ascii_field: data is public. the code, largely - also public.
Hasimir: trinque, except for the BND ...
ascii_field: BND is just a random guess of mine at present, based on the de pirate party thing
Hasimir: ok
ascii_field: but there are human fingerprints on it. take the 'bug' or 'cosmic ray' hypothesis to a home for retarded folks. nobody here is dumb enough to fall for it.
ascii_field: this goes for -all- the agents who read the logs.
Hasimir: alright, assume you're right then, what do they gain by doing this in a way that can be found by regular(-ish) geeks? ☟︎
trinque: the gain may have already been had
trinque: who knows
ascii_field: Hasimir: look when it was done, and when found
Hasimir: in which case the target is on that list
ascii_field: we have a skeleton here, not fresh corpse
Hasimir: so 2010-11
Hasimir: or so
ascii_field: Hasimir: the target is almost certainly -not- on the list
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27500 @ 0.00028515 = 7.8416 BTC [+]
ascii_field: it is someone who -would have written- to one or more of the folks on the list.
Hasimir: ah, of course ...
Hasimir: hrm ...
Hasimir: so someone who already had all those keys in their keyring ...
ascii_field: Hasimir: the genuine keys, you mean ?
Hasimir: or at least all the names ...
Hasimir: yeah
ascii_field: for all we know, it is possible that on some pgp client the faux keys could replace the genuine ones if user ever 'synced' from sks
ascii_field: but this is secondary.
ascii_field: i very much get what the agents are trying to achieve, yes.
ascii_field: a soft fecal matter consensus that 'there is nothing worth looking into here, move along'
Hasimir: I think there's something worth looking into it until an answer is confirmed
ascii_field: that's more like it.
Hasimir: you realise that's not a change of attitude, right?
Hasimir: though logic and healthy skepticism requires questioning myself just as much, if not more so, than anyone else ...
BingoBoingo: Hasimir: You have to understand influence agents of various sorts have passed here before
BingoBoingo: !s ninjashogun
assbot: 1771 results for 'ninjashogun' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=ninjashogun
ascii_field: see also http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-09-2014#827667 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 12-09-2014 16:47:05; asciilifeform: once you've been 'taught the controversy' - that is, convincing that there -even is- reasonable debate among informed people, on a particular subject - the lie becomes a kind of half-truth, automagically
mod6: <+ascii_field> 'Is it possible that a keyserver running the old, buggy PKS code ... << this is gotta be trolling, right??
trinque: plausibility of the lie is what's sought, not confirming it
Hasimir: BingoBoingo, somewhere I have a log of a PM with that guy who we later learned was the undercover agent going after silk road v1 ☟︎
Hasimir: so yeah, I get it
ascii_field: mod6: they are so accustomed to the illiteracy of the general public, that they are entirely unprepared for folks with half a clue. ☟︎
ascii_field: let alone a full clue.
trinque: Hasimir: that would be an awesome thing to sign and deedbot-
ascii_field: ^
Hasimir: trinque, it includes him trying to lure me into discussing it and me giving him armchair legal advice
ascii_field: l0l
trinque: sounds hilarious; deedbot- it!
Hasimir: it is so much funnier with knowing who packt/c0dex is ...
Hasimir: I'll have a look at this deedbot thing then ...
ascii_field: Hasimir: incidentally, zimmerman is not on the list because he is an nsa asset in good standing. the 'silent circle' and multi-coloured phones idiocies are more than ample proof of this
ascii_field: usg -has- his genuine private key when it wants to.
ascii_field: -how- he turned - i haven't a clue
ascii_field: but to classify him as a genuine person may turn out to be dangerous for one's health (assuming that one is not asset himself)
Hasimir: well, I know nsa head-hunted at least one nai employee back when they owned pgp corp
Hasimir: that was Stephen Smalley
Hasimir: as far as I'm aware he's still working for NSA
ascii_field: 'by their fruit you will know them' (TM)
ascii_field: if zimmerman isn't in the pay of usg - he oughta be sending them a bill.
Hasimir: or by their selinux mailing list in this case
Hasimir: speaking of ancient arcane shit ... I also have a full copy of everything that the nsa had on radium.ncsc.mil prior to september 11
Hasimir: it includes the rainbow series
Hasimir: I should probably pop that onto an s3 instance
trinque: Hasimir: deedbot records the sha256 of gpg signed messages into the bitcoin blockchain
jurov: heh seems there will be leaks.b-a.link soon
Hasimir: trinque, oh my ...
Hasimir: trinque, and the docs are where?
jurov: http://wiki.bitcoin-assets.com/irc_bots/deedbot
Hasimir: merci
Hasimir: it has to be clearsigned?
trinque: yeah
Hasimir: or just signed and ascii armoured?
trinque: Hasimir: like so http://deedbot.org/deed-2015-04-23-23-16-59.txt
Hasimir: does it look for the "BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE" header?
trinque: yes
scoopbot_revived: Lawsky Moves to Private Practice http://qntra.net/2015/05/lawsky-moves-to-private-practice/
trinque: Hasimir: either that or a public key
trinque: you have to feed him your public key first, and it checks that against what assbot knows about
Hasimir: ah, that explains why it can't be done with gpg -sa (a pity, that's a great way to avoid encoding errors)
trinque: I synced over keys from assbot once, but am not running it via cron yet
Hasimir: as in charset encoding errors
trinque: Hasimir: deedbot- has his own key in the WoT, rate him and leave feedback and I'll get to it
Hasimir: all it would take would be the same as allowing it to hash any pgp message
Hasimir: the output looks the same, but with -sa it's not encrypted, just signed
trinque: encoding hasn't been a problem yet
trinque: anyhow use it, see what works/doesn't, rate the guy
Hasimir: cool, will do
trinque: I tend to hack on it on the weekends
Hasimir: heh
Hasimir: I've got a lot of crap ... er, code like that
trinque: yup, I don't tend to stop coding, just swap which project
Hasimir: the pyme port was a weekend effort ... about a fortnight ago
Hasimir: but then I'm a fan of py3 (yes, yes, I'm a heretic too)
trinque: speaking of which
trinque: ;;later tell gabriel_laddel ok, I'm loading up masamune
gribble: The operation succeeded.
trinque: fucker got me with his "3d" CLIM, whatever that means
trinque: ;;later tell gabriel_laddel http://dpaste.com/017XXRK.txt
gribble: The operation succeeded.
Hasimir: deedbot- http://www.adversary.org/ben-key.asc
deedbot-: Bad URL or network outage.
Hasimir: hmph
trinque: Hasimir: it has a few sites whitelisted
trinque: dpaste among them
Hasimir: ah
trinque: and needs the raw URL
trinque: .txt
trinque: deedbot-: http://dpaste.com/1QCX2EW.txt
deedbot-: imported: DB4724E6FA4286C92B4E55C4321E4E2373590E5D
trinque: donk
Hasimir: beat me to it ...
Hasimir: nice little api on dpaste too ...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 159350 @ 0.00027277 = 43.4659 BTC [-] {3}
Hasimir: oh wow, paypal just capitulated -- I'll be back later, I've got Treasurer duties to perform
trinque: cya
cazalla: Hasimir, from Melbourne eh?
Hasimir: cazalla, yep
Hasimir: ok, account drained, now I can relax a little ...
cazalla: to borrow from 8chan.. >>2015, still voting
Hasimir: I guess paypal take allegations of 14 counts of their breaching the electoral act seriously after all ...
cazalla: Hasimir, what do you gain by wasting time trying to change the politics down under?
Hasimir: I wish I could've seen their internal company panic, though
Hasimir: I've got a greater chance of influencing here than in the capital of the world ... I mean America
Hasimir: granted, not a huge chance
Hasimir: but still asliver of one
cazalla: meh i gave up voting years ago, don't even bother turning up whether it's local, state or federal election.. they can pay me for my time if they're that keen for my vote
trinque: last vote I cast was for Ron Paul in 2008, lol
trinque: ...I'm done.
cazalla: trinque, at least you have the option not to vote.. i usually find myself rediscovering my religious roots on election day which exempts me from wasting my time.. why Hasimir would volunteer to waste even more of his time though, i can't figure that one ☟︎
trinque: compulsory voting, hilarious
trinque: bbl
Hasimir: well, technically it's compulsory getting your name ticked off, but most vote once they're there
cazalla: nah, it's not
cazalla: AEC send a please explain letter and that's the end of it
Hasimir: yeah, I missed a local council election once and got a similar thing
Hasimir: on the plus side, being more politically active than the vec makes it believable when I say I was too sick to walk to the polling station
cazalla: it's against my religious values to vote is already more than i should be required to tell them
Hasimir: that works?
cazalla: i've never had an issue with it or received a fine
Hasimir: nice
cazalla: and anyway, you don't need to vote in order to be politically active
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 109150 @ 0.00027652 = 30.1822 BTC [+]
Hasimir: also true, but I'm addicted to the game
Hasimir: I know, I know ...
BingoBoingo: http://labphoto.tumblr.com/post/119214028699/the-best-example-that-why-do-chemists-wear-lab
cazalla: BingoBoingo, acid for blood?
BingoBoingo: cazalla: Looks like a mix of some sort didn't want to stay in its container