trinque: if we presuppose that the only way to start a business will be having someone bankroll you, we're already lost
trinque: central planning has limitations which will mean that you get far fewer "startups"
justJanne: social democracy consists of a social market:
trinque: justJanne: you just misunderstand my definition of central planning
justJanne: essentially a free market, but with 50% taxes and basic income
trinque: uh huh and who determined those are the magic numbers?
trinque: give me a low cost of living and don't tax the shit out of me and I'll start all kinds of businesses
justJanne: the people? that’s why you have (a) elections and (b) public polls on them?
justJanne: we have a party that aims for that.
trinque: determining that 50% taxes is the magic number is not soviet because "the people"
justJanne: they got less than 4% of the votes last election
justJanne: no. they just know that one day they might lose their job,
trinque: danielpbarron: heh I always like "surgery by your peers" as a thought experiment
justJanne: and that it is preferable to be safe over having high returns
trinque: justJanne: you are completely ignoring the financial considerations involved
trinque: and substituting "consent" for that
justJanne: trinque: you get all those 50% taxes back to you. In free child daycare, free healthcare, etc.
☟︎ danielpbarron: high returns is a safeguard against starving when you lose your job; it leads to savings
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Morphine yeast seems like a bigger blow to the fiat order than 3D guns and shovel AK's for sure
justJanne: danielpbarron: unless you lose it all, and have no money and are starving
trinque: danielpbarron: and results in a person that can *make decisions*
trinque: justJanne: then you made bad decisions
justJanne: but society is there to save you from the consequences of bad decisions ;P
trinque: so how did I get involved in that?
danielpbarron: why should someone who is prone to "lose it all" be propped up by his more productive neighbors?
justJanne: especially when you aren’t responsible
trinque: justJanne: so out of this bundle of bad decisons how do good ones emerge?
trinque: danielpbarron: because govt is the new god and he can save us from even death
trinque: or she, I guess these days
justJanne: danielpbarron: because they have a chance to work later on again?
danielpbarron: this notion that you can be born "not responsible" is the false axiom from which you base further positions
justJanne: it is more profitable, for example, to put criminals into a trade school and let them work again than to put them into a prison
mats: why should society save you from yourself? that's not sustainable in the least.
trinque: justJanne: you cannot assert such things absent the financial considerations
trinque: we can imagine all sorts of ideal scenarios if we're free to disregard parts of reality we don't like
jurov: yeah, it is actually true providing shelter to homeless is cheaper than let them die and dispose of properly
justJanne: so, in your minds, the Comcast/ATT/Verizon oligopol is good?
mats: oligopolies are not inherently evil, you know.
trinque: justJanne: what keeps them from being outcompeted?
danielpbarron: justJanne, your society is a prison; that is, the one in which there is no individual and only the considerations of the lowest common denominator
trinque: too much noise; one point at a time.
justJanne: and the oligopols lobby corrupt politicians, too
trinque: justJanne: are you familiar with "regulatory capture"
trinque: sure cost but what makes it expensive
justJanne: and yes, mats, in my opinion all monopolies or oligopolies are inherently evil
mats: justJanne: because "its not fair"?
mats: because everyone should get a shot at being a telecoms company!
justJanne: mats: yes, but you have to ask the question different.
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 00:04:29; justJanne: trinque: you get all those 50% taxes back to you. In free child daycare, free healthcare, etc.
mats: sign me up. i don't know shit, but i can carry a gun. am i qualified?
mats: could do, like, perimeter security for a base station.
justJanne: mats: yes. my ISP I use right now is 5 geeks in a basement.
cazalla: you might pay $100 to them in tax but you sure as fuck don't get back $100 worth of childcare when it's free
trinque: try doing radio experiments in your garage and see how long it takes for the FCC to show up
mod6: asciilifeform: thx for posting the werker
justJanne: cazalla: you haven’ŧ seen childcare here, I have – I was in it just 13 years ago ;P
jurov: cazalla: so you'll pay $1000 for childcare instead?
mats: justJanne: b-but don't you believe in freedom?
mats: its entirely possible that monopolies, oligopolies will naturally arise in conditions of voluntary trade
justJanne: mats: your freedom ends where the freedom of the others begins
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mats: and you want, what, a coalition of retards (e.g. bureaucrats and commoners) to manage allocation of capital?
mats: but you'd bust that up, if you ran things.
mats: but they're evil. you must fight evil.
trinque: danielpbarron: social democracy
justJanne: monopolies aren’t really "evil", they just develop out of greed
justJanne: the issue with monopolies is that the companies behind it try to do everything in their mind to avoid competition.
trinque: justJanne: you find me a "monopoly" in history that didn't have govt protection
justJanne: and rarely monopolies every arise without this
justJanne: trinque: Google on the search market
trinque: you have no idea what a monopoly is
cazalla: jurov, nope, i'm anti-childcare, kids should be home with their parents, not strangers and other swine
trinque: it's not "oh no they're winning"
mats: the point of being a business is to brutally murder your competition. there's no avoidance going on.
cazalla: my point was more that the idea that you get back what you pay in taxes by way of free healthcare and childcare is retarded
mats: it just happens that the moat is too high for joe commoner to cross.
jurov: cazalla: the $1000 figure stays even more so if you're to stay home
jurov: and if you pay your own doctor
danielpbarron: cazalla, it's practically a mathematical proof : the further detached money gets from the person it is meant to benefit, the less efficiently it will be spent
justJanne: that’s why politicians are supposed to be normal people.
justJanne: my state’s governor uses the same bus as me every morning
cazalla: jurov, i would if i could, but i can't afford my own doctor.. i can afford to keep kid out of childcare
trinque: justJanne: many of the phrases you use are propaganda terms with no well defined meaning
trinque: "normal people" among them
justJanne: trinque: I am talking about "anyone can become politician"
cazalla: if you're gonna put your kids in childcare, ya may as well just kill em now and save yourself years of pain
trinque: justJanne: and derpy uncle Biden rode amtrak
jurov: and you trinque cazalla danielpbarron are talking about some ideal you can't afford anyway
danielpbarron: i don't want to live in your socialist hell-hole where every man rides the same urine-smelling bus no matter how productive he is
trinque: jurov: if I had a kid right now I'd be able to pay for it just fine
justJanne: danielpbarron: it’s not urine-smelling, lol.
jurov: danielpbarron: go on
trinque: issue isn't the smell of piss
jurov: danielpbarron: how we live in north korea
trinque: justJanne: the issue is your assumption that you have call to involve yourself in my affairs
trinque: as this aggregate "the people"
justJanne: Ah, the english article for "social democracy" is actually wrong
danielpbarron: whatever you're referring to, the monstrosity has 50% tax rate!
trinque: shit it's effectively 50 in the states too
jurov: danielpbarron: you will get separated from your money either way
trinque: and that's not counting the yearly evaporation of weath through currency debasement
trinque: danielpbarron: people can't think for themselves and store away for the future
cazalla: justJanne, ya know what shit won't be there when you're older, right?
danielpbarron: right but how does it include that if it's taxes? the government forces you to have a savings plan?
trinque: so you just breed an irresponsible generation of fools and somehow those same fools don't inhabit the govt and make sure everyone has savings
mats: i get that you grew up in a soft place, and believe all folks deserve a fair shot at doing whatever it is they feel
mats: its a beautiful notion. its also not going to happen unless we go post-scarcity, upon which we will revisit the whole thing
danielpbarron: except it's a very specific shot as per what the normal people voted on
justJanne: there are some laws: (a) every insurance has to provide a basic plan for the same price, (b) everyone has to have at least this plan, or more
mats: 'star trek' is a hell for some folks.
trinque: I'll prefer my firefly class vessel thank you
mats: yer a leaf on the wind
jurov: justJanne: do you know what this nordic model did to one Eric Naggum?
justJanne: mats: Star Trek is heaven, and an amazing solution. Although I’m thinking DS9 Star Trek, not TOS Star Trek
trinque: mats: goddamn when jayne tears up over his very own riot
mats: replace with fantasy, man.
justJanne: mats: DS9-Star Trek is pretty much real.
danielpbarron: no wonder you think this can work; you saw it work on TV!
mats: trinque: its good stuff, i've watched every ep prob a half dozen times
justJanne: with a combination of free trade (think Quark), and basic life enough for everyone
danielpbarron: you know star trek is a work of fiction, right? those were all a bunch of professional liars
mats: you want free trade, but no monopolies or oligopolies.
justJanne: although, tbh, when watching politicians speak, you ask yourself who is the larger liar
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mats: nordic model works because you live in a universe that appears utterly detached from economic reality
justJanne: the idea is that you have basic life just enough for everyone available,
jurov: danielpbarron: so you get to keep all your money, i ask again?
justJanne: and then you have a highly competitive, almost unrestricted market for the rest
mats: because, well, benefits of superior geography.
jurov: danielpbarron: since you so hate taxes
mats: where the fuck are you going to raise capital for basic income in somalia?
jurov: mats leave that to billg
mats: somalia's not so different from the rest of the world. quite a bit ahead of its time, really
danielpbarron: justJanne, people who fall on hard times should be compelled into slavery by their more productive neighbors; they should not get to treat the whole community like their undeserved slave
justJanne: you can only live, and work, because of the people around you
mats: shall we talk about monopolies that benefit the commoners?
justJanne: and the same way the other way round
danielpbarron: no, I can work and live despite the people around me
justJanne: ah, the good old "I can live in a cave" defense
justJanne: I wonder how you’d do without the people taking away your trash, the people putting out the fires, the people cleaning your streets
danielpbarron: the situation would be so entirely different as to be impossible to compare
mats: lets use the US Postal Service as a model. something like 200 junk mailers are responsible for pumping $billions into the thing, and they pay a pretty penny to be able to shit in your box at commercial rates (in US, cost of letter is $0.49 -- junk mailers pay 5x that)
justJanne: let’s talk about different, benefitial monopolies.
mats: without junk mailers, we'd be paying several dollars apiece just to send letters. DHL, FedEx, ... simply couldn't exist without the USPS in USA
mats: because they are responsible for last mile delivery in many cases.
mats: yes, absolutely really.
justJanne: DHL makes most of its profit in one single place.
justJanne: in the place where Deutsche Post DHL has its main business:
justJanne: parcel and delivery service in Europe
justJanne: yes, they can transport a package for 20$ across the continent over night, and make a profit.
justJanne: sadly, the workers make nothing more than basic income from it
jurov: yes, raise minimal wages, fire everyone, replace with machines
justJanne: it is sad because under your assumptions those people shouldn’t work at all
mats: this is exactly how it is in the US.
mats: ~8mn draw supplementary security income, for example.
mats: folks in various programs draw $300-600/mo in govt kindness, and being worthless as they are,
justJanne: So, it's better to provide straight out subsidies than to have minimum wage?
justJanne: A minimum wage might encourage the company to actually be more efficient.
mats: would rather take it than work at McDonalds for just shy of a thousand bux a month
mats: subsidies AND minimum wages are a shit idea.
mats: you follow? let the market set the conditions.
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justJanne: Minimum wage doesn't hurt the market.
danielpbarron: justJanne, a minimum wage prices the cheap labor out of the market (the company will prefer not to hire them at all)
mats: you're high if you think setting a price floor in a market doesn't unduly affect market conditions
danielpbarron: so instead of making [not enough money], they will make 0.
mats: its time to give up the childish fantasies and carefully reexamine your beliefs
jurov: And high rents and other life costs won't "unduly affect market conditions"?
BingoBoingo still imagining tumblr folk brewing their own Laudnum. If opiate abuse is already straining the fiat world so...
justJanne: The median German pays less money for health care than the median US person.
justJanne: And less free education or healthcare.
danielpbarron: i don't think anyone here is taking the side that the U.S. is a good example of how things should be
justJanne: It's not a childish fantasy of it's the currently best working system.
justJanne: If you want total anarchy, go to somalia, they live it.
BingoBoingo: Nah, go to Ferguson. They have community solidarity!!!
danielpbarron: it's a population that is still only a couple generations off from having the crap kicked out of it
justJanne: And if you break your leg and can't work for a month, you starve to death.
mats: jurov: you addressing me there with the quote?
danielpbarron: justJanne, I'm all for keeping people alive that would have otherwise starved to death. They just gotta be humbled by the experience; they aren't entitled to the help.
justJanne: Because they played before 59% taxes for others.
mats: jurov: i don't follow. so, because rent is high, folks should get a min wage/basic income
jurov: no mats. i'm saying you're going to be separated from your money either way
danielpbarron: justJanne, the point being, there are more solutions besides "let starve to death" and "steal from everyone to keep them alive"
jurov: so it does not make sense to argue either way
justJanne: If you want, you can move to Togo, or Monsanto City, or the Bahamas.
justJanne: And, as you stated, you deserve to be punished for being born here.
mats: it does matter, because govt involvement destroys price efficiency
mats: cost of living being high or wutever is immaterial, i think.
jurov: mats, you're not the first nor last fantsaizing of system without "govt involvement"
justJanne: Reminds me of Deutsche Bahn. A large railway company. Everything was fine, perfectly on time, cheap, profitable.
jurov: somehow, nothign came out of that
BingoBoingo: Eh, Monsanto's no so bad. The only problem with glyphosate is it doesn't always kill plants dead enough.
justJanne: Then they went to stock market and became a private company.
justJanne: Now Deutsche Bahn is slow, never on time, expensive, and not much more profitable either.
justJanne: Every. Single. Time. A governmentally owned institution got sold to a US investor they either closed down 2 days later, became shit, or just expensive.
☟︎ mats: i recommend a stint as a govt employee
☟︎ jurov: justJanne: it was govt involvement, dotcha know? :DDDD
danielpbarron: i think the key words in that story are "US investor"
justJanne: I don't care if the government owns the trains, as long as they are 100% on time, cheap, and fast.
danielpbarron: even if they are sometimes used to haul off political dissidents?
justJanne: That is not a part of the discussion.
jurov: lol, as if private enterprises never hauled political dissidents
justJanne: If the government rents a train for that (like Hitler did, the companies profited heavily) or if they own them (like the GDR did), changes nothing.
justJanne: But a governmental monopoly is always better than a private monopoly.
jurov: that's very bad statement
danielpbarron: that can't be true, and only appears to be because you use the united states as your example of the alternative
jurov: i have personal memories of govt monopolies in czechoslovakia
justJanne: And? Were they replaced by private competition or a private monopoly?
jurov: depends, some. but the is not the problem
jurov: when everything is govt monopoly people who need autonomy, mastery and purpose suffer badly
justJanne: The private monopoly will have an incentive to provide the worst service possible, at the highest possible price.
justJanne: Most of the things need to be a competition, others need to be nonprofit monopolies.
danielpbarron: what's so bad about "the worst service possible" anyway ?
justJanne: Like the railway tracks, those can be nonprofit monopolies, while dozens of rail operators can rent them.
justJanne: danielpbarron: because that's shit?
justJanne: You want trains that operate every 20 minutes, at 240km/h, for 19€ across Europe,
danielpbarron: no, your totalitiarian government that forces me to raise my kids the normal way is what's bad
justJanne: danielpbarron: you aren't forced to. You can also raise your children at home, ofc.
mike_c: <+justJanne> Assuming no corruption, << this is where we enter star trek land?
justJanne: mike_c: kinda. But corruption makes discussion always useless.
☟︎ justJanne: Especially as the amount of corruption is very different on where you are, and when.
justJanne: But again, the idea of the Nordic model is huge personal freedom, at the same time a stable society that provides a great basis for everyone.
justJanne: And the personal freedom in the Nordic model is larger than in the US.
☟︎ justJanne: Yes, somalia has more personal freedom, but again, try living there.
justJanne: Because the US is a reference point as worst case civilized country.
☟︎ danielpbarron: shouldn't you compare your thing to my thing? (the thing i'm proposing)
justJanne: Can you provide a real life example?
justJanne: We don't accept fictional systems here, only ones that exist in reality.
justJanne: As everyone can claim their model would work.
BingoBoingo: To be fair Corruption is what makes the world go round
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danielpbarron: justJanne, your model works for as long as there is fiat money to manipulate
justJanne: The Nordic model works without currency.
justJanne: And, tbh, here no one cares about bitcoin.
justJanne: Too high transfer fees, too slow transfers.
justJanne: But yeah, it would work with bitcoin.
justJanne: Your employer has to send that money to the govt.
☟︎ danielpbarron: because my employer doesn't have a physical basis of operations
danielpbarron: and he claims juristiction in the Most Serene Republic, and not your joke of a country
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jurov: you don't pay for shelter, food nor transport?
justJanne: If you earn money in this country, work here (physical place of employer counts), or use your money, it will be taxed.
justJanne: If you earn your money outside, only use it outside, and so on,
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 171621 @ 0.00026204 = 44.9716 BTC [-] {3}
danielpbarron: why would anyone want to be based out of your country and pay 50% when they can be based out of The Most Serene Republic and pay only 0.1% ?
jurov: will The Most Serene Republic cover your medical expenses in case of accident?
☟︎ danielpbarron: jurov, those services will be provided by WoT members eventually I hope
jurov: well, i'm not holding my breath there
justJanne: Why should they live in the serene republic, where your insurance can run off with all your money, when they can live here, and have guaranteed healthcare?
danielpbarron: it's not a matter of where to live, but where to claim juristiction
justJanne: Where they do their physical work, rent a flat, but food — those things are taxes.
danielpbarron: but the reason is: keep 49.9% of your income and use the savings to buy healthcare later if you need it
justJanne: And what if you can't afford it at that point?
☟︎ justJanne: And people deserve to be treated equal.
justJanne: In a few years, the US will have reached the level of freedom that somalia has.
justJanne: Tbh, I like cities where you have to use the bike.
justJanne: With less than 47% of the people owning cars, and everyone using bikes, public transport, and walking, the amount of overweight people reduces drastically.
☟︎ BingoBoingo: Bikes don't have a clear niche where the really beat pedestrianism, motorcarriages, or rocket plane
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justJanne: If you have small narrow streets, distances between 10 and 15 km, and a huge amount of people on tiny space,
☟︎ justJanne: Bike is the only solution. (Or public transport)
danielpbarron: i bike amongst a sea of cars (ct shoreline gets crazy in the summer)
justJanne: Almost all parcel companies, pizza delivery services, etc use bikes Jere for that reason.
justJanne: BingoBoingo: I walk that much daily, I know.
justJanne: Still it's not a distance that makes a car useful, but would be ideal for biking.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 258100 @ 0.00025836 = 66.6827 BTC [-] {7}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72000 @ 0.00026137 = 18.8186 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 00:48:25; mats: i recommend a stint as a govt employee
pete_dushenski: a year, mebbe a year and a half is perfectly sufficient to understand the insanity-on-a-stick that is state-run anything.
mod6: all you need is one trip to the post office
pete_dushenski: post offices are just a special counter in a corner of pharmacies
midnightmagic: Medicine here is good too, as are government-run car insurance corps which have superior prices to private enterprises elsewhere in Canada.
midnightmagic: Stats canada provides superior-quality reports to private enterprise. Environment Canada is the source for pretty much all weather everywhere in Canada.. Health Canada has very little politics in it, necessarily.
pete_dushenski: gov-run services in canada also service relatively few people and are unforgivably expensive.
pete_dushenski: and the relative quality of their output compared to the derpy canadian private enterprises still doesn't speak to how poorly they're run.
pete_dushenski: and they're awful to work for if you have ambition and half a functioning intellect.
mats: i witnessed a pretty serious amount of theft and graft, even at the company level in .mil
mats: can't imagine the kind of devilry a bent brigade quartermaster or commander can get up to
mats: nah, heard of it though, i'll add it to ma list
decimation: it's funny. the troupe of the corrupt supply sergeant probably has a good basis in fact
decimation: of course, 'corrupt' can mean 'good at acquiring stuff without respect to derpy rules'
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decimation: "Stats canada provides superior-quality reports to private enterprise." < what private enterprise provides reports on derpy bureaucracy?
pete_dushenski: lol right. "we make the best reports on the things we ate for breakfast. they're quite unparalleled in detail and accuracy."
mats: in my short stint, i shit you not, things like uparmored vehicles, munitions, and all sorts of tactical gear (e.g. night vision goggles, range finders, body armor) vanished into thin air, leaving the commander on the hook
mats: this occurred under the management of three supply dudes, each of them who successively transferred to another unit before shit hit the fan, and to my knowledge nobody's been locked up yet
☟︎ decimation: mats did you see that econtalk link I posted about lying in the military
mats: there is this thing known as "zero defect" officers
☟︎ mats: because of the structure of officer corps, evaluations bear enormous weight, and you simply cannot ever fuck up
mats: because its "up or out", if you aren't worthy of a promotion according to n metrics, you gtfo
decimation: yep. Really us mil's problem is that is majorly officer heavy
decimation: if some random staff officer can demand that every 2lt must sign for whatever derpy training or equipment kind invalidates the 'chain of command'
mats: well, in that instance, company/batt/brigade cdr is responsible for managing an effective command environment
decimation: sure, and rather than trusting in his judgment, usg sees fit to shower him with thousands of 'requirements'
mats: the ugly status of officer corps is why i didn't stay in ROTC in univ
decimation: they talk the talk, but the actual 'walk' is 'play the bureaucratic/democratic politics game'
mats: the skimming going on was incredible lol
mats: even the cooks were doing it
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mats: fuckers would feed us pasta, one or two meatballs, and week old salad as often as they could
mats: meanwhile they pocket 70% of what the unit actually allotted for a meal
decimation: mats: I shudder to think about what the rest of usg is up to
mats: pallets of MREs would regularly go missing at the end of field exercises
mats: which is why you can buy MREs for three bux when USG pays twelve per iirc
mats: check out the seller's profile
mats: this guy definitely knows a bent supply dude
decimation: one wonders why the hell usg doesn't investigate this kind of stuff
mats: fort lost in the woods -- never again.
mats fondly remembers training event where we were forced to go MOPP 3 (overboots, gas mask, most of the NBC gear) with body armor and run around the track on a summer afternoon
decimation: I had a friend who went to 'real' MOPP training - he was suited in a room with VX gas.
decimation: he said it took several hours to donn/duff the gear
mats: i have a hard time believing VX was used in a training event
BingoBoingo: This weekend I was traveling the still more southern parts of illinois, saw the first wild armadillo I've seen east of the missippi
mats: when you can just dissolve a tablet of CS in a spray bottle
BingoBoingo: The wild of armadillo was of course in it's natural state dead on the side of the road
decimation: "Soldiers from all branches of the Armed Forces, civilian first responders, and some foreign military attend the chemical school for training in various types of chemical detection and survival through several courses including practice in a hot zone where actual toxic agents such as the Sarin and VX nerve agents."
decimation: you couldn't pay me enough for that shit
mats: guys in the chemical corps were some of the most crazy ive ever met
decimation: there's no doubt that a 'real' chemical attack is gonna result in alot of deaths
decimation: the game is just to minimize it I guess
mats: chemical weapons are only useful for propaganda
☟︎ mats: absurdly expensive compared to the cost of a 5.56 round
decimation: under the right conditions I guess they could kill alot of people
decimation: the main problem with chemical weapons is the 'moral debt' they incur
decimation: you start gasing the enemy's cities, he can nuke/gas yours
trinque: antisocialist thread went about as I thought
trinque: glad I drank wine at ben_vulpes' office instead
decimation: I suspect one cannot be against 'basic income' and 'insurance for all' without being a nazi in modern germany
☟︎ trinque: yeah I'm sure that informs the "modern" sensibilities
trinque: dad beat mom, son is a radical feminist
mats: fun fact: there is a Turing-complete printer control VM in the winders kernel
trinque: mats: windows' spooler thing has a language in it?
trinque: this extensibility thing is braindamage
trinque: dev is insecure about whether his app covers all cases so he does things like that, builds a goddamn scripting layer into the thing because you know printing needs that
trinque: then 5 years later that's a part of history and you can't change that, who are you?
mats: another fun fact: there's also a Turing-complete PostScript VM in the kernel
trinque: history will hold that Windows was specifically intended for maximal didling
mats: i dunno all that much about linux tbh
trinque: BingoBoingo: this probably means CUPS is too
trinque: postscript is probably itself turing complete
BingoBoingo: CUPS is weird. Sometimes it just works, othertimes catches fire.
trinque: the perception is probably due to myriad shitty filters and ppd's by printer manufacturers
mats: you'd think there's not a good reason for the kernel to need PostScript
trinque: apparently there are good reasons for all kinds of rape these days
mats: but... you need it for printer stuff and fonts
mats: for the enterprising d00d there r a number of 0days in there
mats: go get em before server 2003 EOL
trinque: you know nobody that fields that crap upgrades anything
trinque: next time you're in a restaurant try to spot the XP running on the terminals
trinque: praise to the guy still using the DOS point of sale... I bet nobody knows how to break into that anymore
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20108 @ 0.00025339 = 5.0952 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33700 @ 0.00025401 = 8.5601 BTC [+]
mats: "The average class of 2015 borrower will graduate college with just over $35,000 in debt, according to an analysis by Edvisors, ...[that] makes the class of 2015 the most indebted class in history, graduating with a whopping $56 billion in student loan debt."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 86364 @ 0.00025372 = 21.9123 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18650 @ 0.00027024 = 5.04 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20108 @ 0.00027624 = 5.5546 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23500 @ 0.00027881 = 6.552 BTC [+]
mats: windows could just rasterize PostScript and run the VM in user mode
mats: wasn't reasonably quick in early 90s but now...
mats: dear god EMET is a shitshow
trinque: asciilifeform: I tend to think if it survived that long something's right about it
☟︎ assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93592 @ 0.00027419 = 25.662 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67700 @ 0.00027881 = 18.8754 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 98800 @ 0.00028103 = 27.7658 BTC [+] {3}
gribble: BTCChina BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 233.827048, Best ask: 233.831884, Bid-ask spread: 0.00484, Last trade: 233.82866, 24 hour volume: 17755.83700000, 24 hour low: 232.935612, 24 hour high: 236.89952, 24 hour vwap: 235.370633812
gribble: Error: This is not one of the supported markets. Please choose one of ['bcent', 'okc', 'btcn', 'coinbase', 'cbx', 'btce', 'bfx', 'btcavg', 'btcde', 'krk', 'bitmynt', 'btsp'] or 'all'
BingoBoingo: ^ nanotube can gribble get itbutt ticker pls?
mircea_popescu: trinque hey, you gonna make deedbot announce bitbet bets too ?
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 05:33:47; trinque: asciilifeform: I tend to think if it survived that long something's right about it
trinque: mircea_popescu: bitbets sure, it's RSS?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16000 @ 0.00028176 = 4.5082 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 00:56:48; justJanne: mike_c: kinda. But corruption makes discussion always useless.
mircea_popescu: all the shoulding and oughting and wanting is outright criminal.
trinque: is that like, paying people to do things?
mircea_popescu: me persuading people to betray uncle sam = corruption!111 ; congress coming up with fatca to FORCE people into betraying their own customers = rule of law
trinque: they're incredibly obedient, which is probably fine under sane circumstances
mircea_popescu: corruption is commerce that dares work against one's ideological goals. the mere fact that this could happen invalidates that one's thinking, and the fact it happens i npractice, and not even exceptionally but to the degree it can no longe be ignored even by the wilfully ignorant ...
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 00:59:33; justJanne: Because the US is a reference point as worst case civilized country.
mircea_popescu: yes, yes, the one with tb will die first and the one with leprosy stinks worst. big whoop.
mircea_popescu: "Doubtless the danger of infection is exaggerated to-day in its sociological dangerous manner."
mircea_popescu:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137583 << yes. and it only works for as long as there's free herring in the scania straight, or for as long as kennedy is ein berliner and airlifts food for free, or for as long as the north sea oil lasts, or for as long as insane luck rolls keep going. otherwise, fuckall, german peasants were the most unfortunate wretches throughout the intermediate period between first
☝︎☟︎ assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 00:58:49; justJanne: And the personal freedom in the Nordic model is larger than in the US.
mircea_popescu: i get it, you got how to throw a great party down, once someone prepares the cupboards. very impressed.
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 01:04:12; justJanne: Your employer has to send that money to the govt.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 108648 @ 0.000286 = 31.0733 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 01:07:21; jurov: will The Most Serene Republic cover your medical expenses in case of accident?
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 01:09:19; justJanne: And what if you can't afford it at that point?
mircea_popescu: there's no rule that "everyone must has", be it equal chances or whatever else. there's also no rule that everyone's just as good as everyone else.
mircea_popescu: not everything has to be preserved. some shit dies, thanks fucking god.
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 01:12:44; justJanne: With less than 47% of the people owning cars, and everyone using bikes, public transport, and walking, the amount of overweight people reduces drastically.
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 01:15:12; BingoBoingo: I dunno anything beats walking.
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 01:15:30; justJanne: If you have small narrow streets, distances between 10 and 15 km, and a huge amount of people on tiny space,
BingoBoingo: The natural order of things is you walk around town and drive (car, horse, rocket) between towns.
BingoBoingo: A bicycle is just dead wait that's going to get stolen as soon as you have to go inside a building
BingoBoingo: And if one can't walk with leisure to all places of import in the town, the town sucks
trinque: driving alone on a road being a close second
trinque: I used to get a lot of thinking done driving between the major cities in TX; past a certain hour there's nobody out there
BingoBoingo: driving alone on a road in the middle of nowhere during the day, just might take first place
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 02:00:50; mats: this occurred under the management of three supply dudes, each of them who successively transferred to another unit before shit hit the fan, and to my knowledge nobody's been locked up yet
trinque: try making angry plans for your life on your fucking bicycle
trinque: lol, I give that a 50/50 on working out
trinque: could be like "and then we're going to own half this city" and so on, with thrusts
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54500 @ 0.00028775 = 15.6824 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 02:45:32; decimation: he might have been bullshitting
mircea_popescu: "This room has vx gas in it!11" "no, not really, act as if it did."
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 02:49:42; mats: chemical weapons are only useful for propaganda
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31900 @ 0.00028823 = 9.1945 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 03:06:37; decimation: I suspect one cannot be against 'basic income' and 'insurance for all' without being a nazi in modern germany
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 176448 @ 0.00028307 = 49.9471 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93600 @ 0.00026658 = 24.9519 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45252 @ 0.00026658 = 12.0633 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84600 @ 0.00028762 = 24.3327 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: kakobrekla: does log.bitcoin-assets.com have some weird filtering?
ben_vulpes: pnohe does not want to resolve dns even apparently
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6750 @ 0.00028227 = 1.9053 BTC [-]
justJanne: BingoBingo: the issue is that you can't walk around in larger towns anymore, and that's where bikes become useful. And no, people don't steal it. Hell, I've left my laptop hundreds of times on random park benches in heavily frequented parks, never stolen. In my neighborhood most people don't even lock their doors.
ben_vulpes: <justJanne> danielpbarron: unless you lose it all, and have no money and are starving << people who should starve should starve
ben_vulpes: justJanne: there are simply too many people on this planet
justJanne: Currently the food production of the world could support 10 billion people.
justJanne: But about 40% of the produced food is wasted.
ben_vulpes: were it all dispersed evenly across everyone, rather than proportionately to their ability to pay.
trinque: "at this rate of emptying the tank we could support infinite trucks"
ben_vulpes: suuuure, if all the food were spread really thinly across the whole population base, we could all live on gruel!
williamdunne: Waste is a fact, there is no real way around it
ben_vulpes: this contradiction routine wears thin, justJanne.
williamdunne: We could have more people if people wanted to fuck ugly chicks
justJanne: I am saying: just the food you let go to waste would be enough to feed the starving people in Africa.
trinque: justJanne: bringing things places costs money
ben_vulpes: i literally give zero shits about starving people in africa.
justJanne: And that's the issue what's wrong with this world.
ben_vulpes: show me how to save my wot from impending doom, and i'll give a shit.
ben_vulpes: but saving randos on another continent? idgaf.
williamdunne: Africa might actually stand a chance of doing something if it weren't for various restrictions placed by EU, USG and co
trinque: justJanne: does europe now think it is "beyond" war?
justJanne: War might be interested in Europe, as an entity
justJanne: But the wars inside of EU are history.
justJanne: For the first time in the past 3000 years we have no wars between EU countries.
trinque: does germany own the EU politically now?
trinque: justJanne: you're german right?
justJanne: The EU council has actually no say.
justJanne: The power is in the commission and the parliament
ben_vulpes: not those who buy the votes. no never that.
justJanne: You can't pass a law without either bribing half of them,
justJanne: Or changing the constitution first.
ben_vulpes: in what world are all of the politicians in any situation not wholly owned by capital?
ben_vulpes: this Janne babe's doing a number on the chan, smack in the middle of the keymageddon.
justJanne: The EU commissioners, albeit getting lobbied to by many companies to pass TTIP just leaked all secret treaties they are working on.
justJanne: They might be corrupt, but they aren't that corrupt.
ben_vulpes: !rate justJanne -1 some girl with notions
justJanne: And had to pay 250 million in damages.
justJanne: Subsidies can't be what you want, right?
williamdunne admittedly only read about the "er mer gerd evul cerperatshuns rapin guv"
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.justJanne.-1:27e8f6ad997dec923ad3c861be03ff72636087cdaac99dd9e535179a33aa1675
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -1 for justJanne with note: some girl with notions
justJanne: Because it forces governments to keep subsidies, or increase them.
justJanne: It also leads to restrictions for some companies.
justJanne: And adds European IP law in the US, and US IP law in Europe.
justJanne: So no, you can't produce cheese and call it Gouda or Cheddar in the US anymore.
williamdunne: I just like the idea of suing government, wasn't aware that you could sue for removed subsidies
williamdunne: Although in this case I like subsidies, I change my mind
trinque: what I do want is other people signing contracts on my behalf.
trinque: you're too young to have ever had anything
justJanne: Freedom is when you'd get to vote on it.
ben_vulpes: i'm looking forward to ttip draining medicaid for hilaribad training proggys
trinque: williamdunne: oh, I do not
justJanne: Without even the ability to vote on this, TTIP is unconstitutional.
justJanne: But without voting there is 0 freedom.
ben_vulpes: kakobrekla: how long do i have to wait for assbot to accept and act on my raitings?
justJanne: Voting makes it 50% freedom, as at least 50% of the people gets their choice.
justJanne: Without voting, there is 0 freedom
trinque: justJanne: 435/320mil are going to rubber stamp this thing and make me ok with it?
justJanne: Not everything is bad, just because you don't like it.
ben_vulpes: but the average of opinions is good, because it includes everyone!1
cazalla: russians need to send more reds to rape german women tbh, fuck this shit
williamdunne: Objectively speaking stealing from people is bad
williamdunne: The fact that there is an organization doing it on your behalf makes it no better
ben_vulpes: <williamdunne> Objectively speaking stealing from people is bad << nope, stealing from my enemies is grand.
trinque: justJanne: there is allowing the state to control the definition of money and of ownership.
justJanne: It's your choice to live in a place with taxes.
justJanne: And you said people deserve to be punished for the actions for their ancestors.
justJanne: In this case, you deserve to be taxed because your parents were to stupid to move away
ben_vulpes: and you deserve to be raped for supporting socialism then?
justJanne: I think trinque was the one saying it?
cazalla: justJanne, hope you get raped by a gang of marauding muslims over there
williamdunne: Trinque's statements aren't my own, this isn't a government
justJanne: So, williamdunne, you say people don't deserve to be punished for the actions of their ancestors?
justJanne: So everyone should, after birth, have the same chances?
ben_vulpes: <justJanne> mats: DS9-Star Trek is pretty much real. << aha she thinks scifi's real
justJanne: Why should they be punished for their parents poorness?
trinque: justJanne: you use should to leap across things you don't want to have to think about.
ben_vulpes: <justJanne> Why not? << needs some context
trinque: this is nothing bad, just being young and not knowing anything
justJanne: Punishment through inaction is still punishment.
trinque: you know, if socialists are happy in socialism, why isn't that fine?
williamdunne: Because they enforce it on others, if they want to create a commune go for it
justJanne: I don't know. I have no issues with you guys building a state of anarchy,
☟︎ justJanne: As long as this place can stay the way it is.
ben_vulpes: and how would you know how this place is, justJanne
mircea_popescu: <justJanne> Currently the food production of the world could support 10 billion people. << that's not the point. sure, food could be produced to feed 10, 100, one trillion. does not mean anyone wants more idiots running around. too many as it is.
justJanne: trinque: you guys said you wanted a place where "no man rules over other men", no taxes, no government, no controls, no streets.
justJanne: williamdunne said it, for example.
ben_vulpes: <justJanne> trinque: you guys said you wanted a place where "no man rules over other men", no taxes, no government, no controls, no streets. << source or seriously get the fuck out
justJanne: Several others said the same before.
williamdunne: Something I have said does not apply to others here
ben_vulpes: <justJanne> williamdunne Don't want taxes << so what and whatever
mircea_popescu: not merely because to prevail in arguments, but because a mind that's organised without strong sourcing of propositions is windows in a skullbox.
justJanne: If the others want to join the argument, they have to also measure themselves to your statements.
ben_vulpes: williamdunne: better to demonstrate than postulate.
williamdunne: justJanne: You're joining the argument, not the other way around
justJanne: That were picked out of context and attacked today.
trinque: people review the logs and respond; get used to it
justJanne: By people saying they want no subsidies, but TTIP
mircea_popescu: they were taken out of the context you intended them in and placed in the wider context prevailing here.
mircea_popescu: this gives you an opportunity to explain yourself, or to go nuts i guess.
justJanne: I wonder how you guys actually think your social system will work in reality.
justJanne: Yeah, a friend of mine was an extreme anarchist.
justJanne: So I read and learned a lot about it.
justJanne: Interesting idea, unless it is implemented, within of a dozen generations it often stops working.
mircea_popescu: i've known a bunch of german sluts, i don't go around assuming you're one, right ?
williamdunne: justJanne: What is implemented? WoT is alive and well
justJanne: But we talked through your topic a bunch of times.
justJanne: williamdunne: when you'd try to implement this system in reality, as a social system.
ben_vulpes: this is why we must insist on the log-reading, regardless of how cute or female.
justJanne: Especially the "let poor people become poorer" and the "rich become richer" part.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes also must give people rope to hang with, it's a tandem process.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> <justJanne> Currently the food production of the world could support 10 billion people. << that's not the point. sure, food could be produced to feed 10, 100, one trillion. does not mean anyone wants more idiots running around. too many as it is. << Speaking about agriculture. Lots of fallow fields this year.
justJanne: After just a dozen generations, your poor will rise up against you.
ben_vulpes tries to imagine the wealth of nagants bequeathed after a dozen cycles
williamdunne: justJanne: I shared all of your opinions at first, thought MP was a cock etc. I then had the decency to spend ~9 months reading logs and blogs before speaking
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo from what i hear a major battle is raging in us agriculture. monsanto vs agrobiz
williamdunne: justJanne: Poor would benefit as much as anyone else, well, the working poor
justJanne: williamdunne: I read blogs about it for 3 years.
justJanne: And it made me even more convinced it is a great system in theory. Not in reality.
justJanne: No, literally your ideas and statements.
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> ben_vulpes also must give people rope to hang with, it's a tandem process. << maybe next cycle i can refrain
mircea_popescu: you've done what a hacker news reader would do, reading the usg piece instead of my piece and imagining "oh i read about crypto"
justJanne: I even read dozens of logs of the chat before.
justJanne: Because I still don't believe it is a good idea.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: There's always the lover's quarrels with those two. Could just be phosphorous is getting expensive...
mircea_popescu: no, not because of what you believe. because of how you proceed.
justJanne: One can have an opinion different of yours.
justJanne: mircea_popescu: I didn't start any process.
justJanne: Someone yesterday asked what's so bad about abolishing the Nordic model.
justJanne: That's how the whole thing started.
justJanne: Since then, I'm just defending the current position.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: how are you even awake
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 06:28:51; mircea_popescu:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137583 << yes. and it only works for as long as there's free herring in the scania straight, or for as long as kennedy is ein berliner and airlifts food for free, or for as long as the north sea oil lasts, or for as long as insane luck rolls keep going. otherwise, fuckall, german peasants were the most unfortunate wretches throughout the intermediate pe
ben_vulpes: <justJanne> If you want total anarchy, go to somalia, they live it. << lol u and somalia
williamdunne: On a similar note, I considered dunne.so and thug.so as alternative to thethug.life
ben_vulpes: anyways i got magical tits runnin around i'm off
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 23:51:02; justJanne: because they are volunteers.
BingoBoingo: <justJanne> Bit that's not the case. << Why do the Greeks and Spaniards work longer hours and yet Krautenvacations are longest vacations?
justJanne: davout: and what about volunteer librarians? They too?
mircea_popescu: nah, latinos mostly do c style work (figure out the least you can get away with and do less htan that).
trinque: justJanne: you cannot begin to imagine the bore of a planned out life for a male... good fucking god
trinque: seems like it sounds fantastic to you
mircea_popescu: lots of pedos volunteer to be teachers. is scarcely a proof your system works.
davout: justJanne: i don't know lol, you were talking about firemen, guess they're bored or something, but then again, you don't only see volunteer librarians in societies that "work well"
justJanne: True. But it shows that people have the will and ability to do good without pay.
mircea_popescu: trinque you think it's a gender issue ? i dun think she's old enough yet.
davout: justJanne: just because you don't see what folks get out of a deal doesn't mean they're not getting anything
mircea_popescu: justJanne if it's not worth paying for it wasn't that good in the first place.
gribble: Error: "what" is not a valid command.
BingoBoingo: <justJanne> davout: and what about volunteer librarians? They too? << I am a librarian. Volunteering without compensation is a violation of my professional ethics.
williamdunne: Interesting, didn't realise ampersand was a gribble thing
davout: BingoBoingo: don't you get to steal a TP roll a day already?
trinque: mircea_popescu: could just as well be something taught to everyone, that risk is terrible and to be avoided
justJanne: BingoBoingo: then you'd have a hard time here, 90% of all librarians are volunteers.
davout: justJanne: you underestimate the percentage of people that would do anything to merely get some social interaction, aka feel lonely
mircea_popescu: ESPECIALLY in societies that "Work well" by old woman standards.
BingoBoingo: justJanne: Seeing as the library profession here requires a graduate degree it wouldn't be sustainable here.
justJanne: That's no issue, davout. Such immaterial payments are just what I originally meant.
trinque: so they're all already smashed into obedience, and were born there
mircea_popescu: amusingly, the only place where that model is actually sustainable is... israel.
trinque: so yeah the cell's fine whatever, sun's shining out there today
mircea_popescu: where the old woman doctrine has the nice counterpart of the freely provided fun stuff to do by the palestinians.
mircea_popescu: if those schmucks had any idea about their important place in keeping adlai happy...
justJanne: Not really, I didn't take it as 3rd or 4th language in school
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 00:14:48; hanbot: how about jealous wives?
davout: srsly, catching up with log, you guys have been going for like 8 hours now?
justJanne: I have no issue explaining people why removing the Nordic model would be bad.
justJanne: I've slept 3h and skipped 2 lectures -.-
mircea_popescu: justJanne so far you've not considered the part where it is already collapsing on its own, bnecause it doesn't work, because it's strictly based on getting lucky.
BingoBoingo: No wonder the Greeks are taking over the EU's jools
mircea_popescu: well, you need a system that works without assumptions.
justJanne: Germany can only have a positive state household by exploiting southern Europe.
mircea_popescu: sure, if you get a shitton of oil when oil's valuable / fish when fish is valuable etc, the "nordic model" is a great way to share it.
williamdunne: I'm impressed with how quick shes climbing the stats
justJanne: So, like you said, we need to reduce it.
mircea_popescu: williamdunne people generally don't wish to accept that nazism was absolutely unavoidable, FOR THIS REASON
justJanne: mircea_popescu: the Nordic model is possible without any valuable resources.
justJanne: As seen in places like Switzerland.
mircea_popescu: purely economic. as hitler actually pointed out : we don't have enough land to exploit. either we fight or "the way of life" has to change.
mircea_popescu: justJanne are you kidding ? switzerland is exploiting a resource
williamdunne: mircea_popescu when you're willing to accept that theft is okay, how many more steps is murder? Europe and the US already murders vast quantities of people in Africa
mircea_popescu: williamdunne "murder". in the immortal words of butch, "if he were a better boxer he'd still be alive"
mircea_popescu: justJanne don't die over b-a hon. it's eternal, will be here when you're 69, too.
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: I largely agree, Africa doesn't have much going for it but I do think it stands a chance of doing a helluva lot better without various EU/US laws.
mircea_popescu: williamdunne one of the most amusing things, to me, is that the entire "black domination" subtrend in porn is driven almost entirely by white men.
mircea_popescu: it's like... we're so far ahead of the curve, we will PRETEND to be playing all others' hands, too. because... w/e.
williamdunne: But do you not think that without various shitty laws preventing any African from doing something other than eating dirt?
williamdunne: i.e AML bullshit, trade sanctions/restrictions etc
mircea_popescu: pretty much everyone in the civilised world (us and eu excluded) lives fine without ever touching those.
williamdunne: Sure, but they put someone without money at a disadvantage
mircea_popescu: but anyway, to round off the "social marketplace" thing : if one is to reclassify slave labour as "voluntaryism", which is undoubtedly erroneous but nevertheless coherent with the presupositions proposed, then sure, i am a champion of "the northern model"
williamdunne: Don't think we all should be equal in fairyland but creating additional barriers is about the equivalent of kicking a man while he is down
mircea_popescu: williamdunne someone without money has the disadvantage of not what to spend and the advantage of not having what to protect.
williamdunne: Only in the drunken manner, not the competitive
mircea_popescu: mkay. so take poker. a very simple description of poker is that you can either play hooker or bluffer. to play hooker you need card superiority, and try to trick your opponent into paying.
mircea_popescu: to play bluffer you nbeed card inferiority, and try to trick your opponent into folding.
mircea_popescu: now, if one's afore-decided they will be bluffing, a) they won't make very good poker players and b) any hand they get can "put them at a disadvantage".
mircea_popescu: because it's not what they expected / wish to play / etc.
mircea_popescu: why should this matter ? play the fucking hand. you adjust to fit it, not the other way around.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81200 @ 0.00028126 = 22.8383 BTC [-] {2}
williamdunne: In this case its more like the bluffer having to play with a different set of superiority rules
mircea_popescu: how would that work ? does being rich change thermodynamics or something ?
mircea_popescu: rich man's bridge will collapse just like poor man's bridge will.
mircea_popescu: but yes, the set of rules that control the game are different for hookers and bluffers. for hookers, the rules that control are "A > K > Q" etc.
mircea_popescu: for bluffers, "you don't get to see my cards if you fold"
williamdunne: Sure, but I don't think it's a very controversial idea that various rules such as the AML set put entire regions of people at a disadvantage
mircea_popescu: obviously, if you refuse to trade with putin, this puts "putin as seen through our trade with him" at a disadvantage.
mircea_popescu: but then putin turns around, alligns with china economically in exchange for support for his "regions of eurasia" political model
williamdunne: If I want to start a business in the UK, I can pretty easily sell my product wherever the fuck I want. Banks are willing to work with me, that will be fine. If I was from random-istan not so much
mircea_popescu: or, alternatively, you discontinue support for israel and so the saudis no longer have what to fear so they dump your alliance.
mircea_popescu: you can't sell in randomistan anymore than randomistan can sell in the uk.
williamdunne: Well, various African shitholes don't help themselves and won't allow foreigners to open accounts
mircea_popescu: but you see how this is entirely you calling things names ?
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Well yes, thats what I'm talking about but the reverse
mircea_popescu: "oh, that's because uk shithole won't help itself and won't allow foreigners to whatever"
mircea_popescu: why do you think the empire's been going to shit for a century ?
williamdunne: Okay I see what you mean, but the UK needs it less
mircea_popescu: the uk... god help it. no country in memory sunk as bad as they have.
mircea_popescu: germany's pretty much recovered, the uk will never recover.
williamdunne: Probably, then again we are largely responsible for modern socialism, so what do you expect?
williamdunne: London subsidises the rest of the country anyway
mircea_popescu: yeah they do, lmao, which is outright ridiculous. all good things are supposed to flow TO the city, not from it.
mircea_popescu: and even WITH all that huge expenditure, scotland wants more and nearly seceded.
williamdunne: Precisely, I've been ranting far too often recently about how London should tell the rest of the UK to fuck off
mircea_popescu: well, it can't. because the one remaining hanging nail on the historical uk is the coupla nuke subs the us allows them to keep
mircea_popescu: which you know... scotland's going to oh so judiciously use
williamdunne: I would imagine that they'd be moved to Plymouth or Bristol or summin
mircea_popescu: btw, you familiar with the hilarious history of the scottish new world settlement thing ?
justJanne: It would finally kill their economy
justJanne: As their economy right now is "European companies open an Ltd in London"
williamdunne: "Returning to Edinburgh, the Company of Scotland for Trading to Africa raised £400,000 sterling in a few weeks (equivalent to roughly £46 million today),[b] with investments from every level of society, and totaling about a fifth of the wealth of Scotland.[7][8] It was, for Scotland, a massive amount of capital.[9]"
mircea_popescu: uk as an independent state is about as ludicrous today as the kingdom of scotland was in 1715
williamdunne: But it likely won't matter nearly as much outside of EU
mircea_popescu: only matters because it's a relative tax heaven from the patently insane french (and german) communists.
justJanne: Outside of London, the average waiting time for an ambulance is 4 hours.
williamdunne: Currently if you set up a financial company in the EU, the standard procedure is London
justJanne: Wait until the UK leaves, and their tax-haven-economy breaks down.
mircea_popescu: there is NEVER going to be a way for the bs taxation of socialists to be enforced. ever.
justJanne: The tax haven will move to Romania, or Liechtenstein.
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Wrote another article about that the other day, not too good though
justJanne: Gibraltar is UK, would also leave.
justJanne: So the Brits see the shit Cameron is doing.
williamdunne: justJanne: It could probably work its way in there either way, IoM for example is not EU dependent
williamdunne: justJanne: We can choose between Cameron or Labour, at least Cameron doesn't want to remove our main advantage.. being a tax haven
williamdunne: And I like the current availability of toilet paper
williamdunne: My hand might be as soft as loo roll, but its not too hygienic
justJanne: At least parliament debates are fun with all of them at once.
justJanne: And more democratic, cause the government won't risk ignoring the 7% people who voted liberals, nor the 7% who voted communist, as if they'd ignore them, those parties would just start a fight in Parliament.
williamdunne: The problem is the UK is mostly shit, as we have discussed. And the shit areas would be far more likely to vote Communist
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95396 @ 0.00027971 = 26.6832 BTC [-]
justJanne: Let liberals and communists fight in parliament.
justJanne: The winner of the box fight gets to make a paw.
trinque: so you get an incomprehensible society
mircea_popescu: justJanne that there is an apparent need for new laws already invalidates the entire proposition of having a state in the first place.
mircea_popescu: either come up with a contract and stick to it, or go home.
justJanne: mircea_popescu: not really — most of the laws are adapting existing situations.
mircea_popescu: either you have the whole contract written down, or i'm not signing.
mircea_popescu: no parliament has the authority to make new law. ever.
justJanne: Again, if you want, you can move out.
williamdunne: If you don't move out of Germany I will rape you
mircea_popescu: you're taking your stupid shit to somewhere not near me.
justJanne: Then the minority can decide if they want to move out or accept it.
justJanne: We'll see how it works out. Hint: it won't.
justJanne: So, you don't pay taxes or anything?
justJanne: Or do you support the parliament that, according to you, never should make new laws?
williamdunne: He pays taxes to the most serene republic IIRC
justJanne: Ah, that kind of "I question your authority" letter.
mircea_popescu: but anyway : i, personally, pay no taxes. agents i own pay taxes in the jurisdictions i've incorporated them in, as you'd expect.
mircea_popescu: and if the deal changes, they dissolve an' that's that.
justJanne: So, are you using roads? Water supply?
justJanne: As you stated before you aren't paying for them.
mircea_popescu: are you commiting theft when those volunteer firemen come put your hair out ?
mircea_popescu: but you were extolling the virtues of not paying for their work a moment ago.
justJanne: But the roads in the country you live in are for you to use, in return you pay taxes.
williamdunne: If private companies can't build roads, they shouldn't exist
justJanne: Ofc private companies can build roads.
williamdunne: Ok, well state enforced monopoly doesn't justify theft, no more than my ejaculate justifies rape
mircea_popescu: the notion that some govt owns the roads, seriously...
justJanne: A danish private company just builds a tunnel to Germany right now.
mircea_popescu: listen, is merkel paying you for using the public space ?
williamdunne: justJanne: Right, this is the point. We didn't choose for Gov to build roads and would pay tolls if owned by private companies
mircea_popescu: you come up with a deal, if i agree you get away with it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19050 @ 0.00029061 = 5.5361 BTC [+]
williamdunne: I don't click "I agree to give up 40% of my income"
justJanne: Did you click "I agree to Freenode"'s ToS, ever?
justJanne: And still you are subject to them.
mircea_popescu: justJanne listen, you agree women that dress sluttily should be fucked byu whoever feels like ?
mircea_popescu: they don't want the cock, they shouldn't have clicked the short skirt tos.
williamdunne: Comparing freenode to government is a little ridiculous, don't you think?
justJanne: Same with countries. If the deal changes, you can move.
justJanne: Moving from Freenode isn't easy either.
justJanne: You have to convince all your peers to move, too
williamdunne: I have to convince people to make some clicks, not hard if freenode implements a tax
trinque: the fuck whatsapp is a government now
mircea_popescu: the fact that someone did something stupid does not make the stupid thing right.
justJanne: You want governments to sign contracts with all citizen, what's more realistic?
williamdunne: Apparently moving IRC servers and tos are equivalent to the violent rule of gov
mircea_popescu: and what "the people" do or don't do is no basis for either law or sense.
justJanne: According to every not-retarded politician, ever?
mircea_popescu: the only realistic thing is to eat raw meat and dress in dead children.
mircea_popescu: nutty bs. who ever asked any politician anything for crying out loud.
justJanne: All politicians who said the opposite ended up as dictators.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20036 @ 0.00027971 = 5.6043 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: what are you, going through the non sequitur book in order ?
justJanne: Guys, please take some college courses in economy, politics, and philosophy.
mircea_popescu: "ima call anyone that doesn't promote socialism a dictator and then say that not being socialist makes dictators"
mircea_popescu: might as well have the same argument about believing in christ and move to 1555 to be a nun.
justJanne: It's hard to argue with you when you ask the same questions over and over again, and just goalpost all he time
davout: justJanne: you sure have lots of stamina points
williamdunne: davout: she's burning mana for the energy regen spell
mircea_popescu: justJanne the reason it is hard to argue is because the list of places where your ideas fail is about eighteen entries long by now, and you're not directly interested in examining the holes and fixing your head, but instead would prefer us to somehow accept the nonsense.
justJanne: There are holes, but the result still works better than any alternative.
justJanne: Again, I have no issue with your system.
justJanne: If you want, you can try it as a state.
justJanne: Declare independency, make your own laws.
justJanne: We'll see in 30 years how it ends.
mircea_popescu: if there's still a germany in 30 years, it may see how itshould behave and copy us, yes.
mircea_popescu: if there isn't, a well. you're lucky enough to have come in early.
justJanne: Denmark stopped printing cash last week.
mircea_popescu: williamdunne quick : what's the difference between "Declaration of sovereignty" and "Declaration of independence" ?
justJanne: From 2017 on, Denmark plans to do everything via digital money transfers.
trinque: where's danielpbarron, it's the mark of the beast
justJanne: No matter how, or using what currency.
mircea_popescu: the latter recognises the sovereignty of the entity it secedes from. the former does not.
williamdunne: Ah, well I prefer the former in this case then
mircea_popescu: funny to do here, too, a brick is worth like 800 bucks or so.
davout: justJanne: btw, how did you end up here?
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Wondered, can you not get a lot more for your money if you pay with USD? Or would that get you shot?
justJanne: davout: discussion about RSA, tbh.
mircea_popescu: williamdunne official dollar is 8.6 pesos, unoficcial like 13.
mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, they pay like 10% less for 20 dollar bills. only want 100s.
williamdunne: Sorta like the £1,000,000 note in the UK I guess
justJanne: mircea_popescu: in Denmark, almost all transfers are digital anyway. As the official system is cheaper, faster, and easier than bitcoin even.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> which iirc don't even exist in the us. << 100's still exist here
williamdunne: But it shouldn't be compared to centralized systems
mircea_popescu: the idea that i'd allow a third party to look into my accounts... what the fuck is this, the future ?
BingoBoingo: It prolly won't bee too long before they bring back 100,000 bills with the Woodrow Wilson and everything
justJanne: They aren't really centralized either.
justJanne: More like a web of hundreds of central points
justJanne: While bitcoin has millions of nodes.
justJanne: Denmark has no digital central bank — the money flows from node to node.
trinque: the point is the fucking records
justJanne: I can send money to another merchant without it ever touching a bank
trinque: not how many buildings they have
mircea_popescu: i don't think you understand what centralized-decentralized mean.
justJanne: Just because my money is only a cryptographic signature on my credit card.
williamdunne: justJanne: How is current issuance handled then? Banks trusted to issue their authorised balance?
williamdunne: I know in the UK it works with central bank reserve/payment accounts
williamdunne: Which all settlement systems are built on top of
justJanne: The thing is, the reason why German debit cards don't work in any other place,
justJanne: Is because they store the money as a cryptographically signed transaction history on the card.
trinque: how about less this bullshit and more on the definition of centralized vs decentralized
mircea_popescu: clever chick with a head fulla stupid meets #b-a. anyone care to bet on the linecount total ?
☟︎☟︎ williamdunne: From the frequency of messages don't think she even read the GPG contracts etc, let alone historical logs
justJanne: I wonder how much calculation power it would take to break 4096-bit RSA.
mircea_popescu: williamdunne skimming, it's how intelligent kids end up coping with school.
williamdunne: I've been trying to break that habit, think I'm about there
justJanne: I mean, a startup in my city sells FPGA clusters that can be used for that (or for crypto mining), and the NSA bought 256 clusters, each should be enough to break AES256 in 2 weeks.
trinque: we're not gonna get a definition of centralized/decentralized
justJanne: decentralized is a system where all nodes are equal.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36164 @ 0.00027707 = 10.02 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: what do you take yourself for, some sort of equal or something ?
justJanne: Any homogenous graph is decentralized.
justJanne: Every web of nodes is just a graph.
justJanne: A web of nodes is a graph, as a graph, per definition, is just a set of nodes, and a set of relations between nodes.
mircea_popescu: do you understand what "the map is not the territory" means ?
trinque: what's the command structure of the society within which your decentralized banks operate?
justJanne: The banks aren't either fully centralized, nor fully decentralized. Anyone can just open a bank, the question is if other banks will accept money from your customers as payment, as they don't know if they can trust your cryptographic signature.
trinque: the fuck is this where they're both or neither
justJanne: It's the same as minimum and smallest, two completely different definitions.
justJanne: I'm currently talking about northern Germany, as I don't know the internals of Denmark, it's the same, though.
justJanne: There is a difference between the printed money and and the way digital money works.
trinque: the whole EU sounds like what they do in portland tech companies
trinque: where everyone smiles and no one's like, your boss, man
justJanne: Person A can pay person B, person B can pay person C
trinque: the banks are totally decentralized because they've got various sub-departments of some huge central authority
justJanne: All this while they are completely offline.
justJanne: Imagine we have 3 people, completely offline.
justJanne: Person C now goes online and can spend the money.
justJanne: You can transfer money offline, and it is valid.
mircea_popescu: b has no money. a gives him 100 moneys. b sends 100 money to C and 100 money to D.
justJanne: They can't spend anything, as the last two statements are invalid.
justJanne: You have at the beginning 0 money.
justJanne: Your card stores a list of cryptographically signed money from the sender.
justJanne: So, I send you money, by sending you a cryptographically signed info "I sent you n money"
mircea_popescu: justJanne yes. so i copy that list and send money to 500 people
justJanne: Copying is prevented through unique salts for each transaction.
mircea_popescu: then necessarily i can send to both. so i do. what now.
punkman: justJanne: I mean, a startup in my city sells FPGA clusters that can be used for that (or for crypto mining), and the NSA bought 256 clusters, each should be enough to break AES256 in 2 weeks. << lolwut
justJanne: Then the last person receiving it won't be able to use it.
mircea_popescu: i'll tell you what now : whoever gets first online spends it.
williamdunne: justJanne: Do you have a paper or something for this?
punkman: GeldKarte > "This system is protected against double-spending by not allowing the user to read the keys from their smart card."
mircea_popescu: the other fails, the bank gets alerted that this was copied and the police shows up
justJanne: It existed 10 years before bitcoin, though.
mircea_popescu: it will never work. the only reason its not being raped wide open is because atm nobody gives a shit about swine country.
williamdunne: Nevermind, I'll ignore the paper that is derpy
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69050 @ 0.0002832 = 19.555 BTC [+] {2}
punkman: " Funds cannot move freely within the system. They can move from a bank account (or cash) to a Geldkarte. From there, they can only be moved to a merchant's card and from the merchant's card, they can only go to the merchant's bank account."
justJanne: Because we have so many different debit card companies >_>
mircea_popescu: justJanne odds are you just had a superificial understanding of it.
mircea_popescu: anyway, denmark is probably the best example of usistan. "The worlds largest public sector (30% of the entire workforce on a full-time basis) is financed by the world's highest taxes."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28350 @ 0.00028957 = 8.2093 BTC [+]
justJanne: The company is SciEngines GmbH (they have a Wikipedia article)
trinque: man... justJanne you have recalibrated me for tolerating canadians
justJanne: mircea_popescu: the Nordics still pay about the same taxes as the US, but you get free healthcare, free college, welfare, and an almost unregulated market.
mircea_popescu: justJanne how much have you travelled ? outside of the eu i mean
justJanne: I haven't travelled outside EU yet. Never had the money to do so.
mircea_popescu: aha. well the thing is, the books you read are kinda deliberately written so as to make you think you're in the best possible place.
justJanne: (And no, without free college I couldn't go to university.)
justJanne: This summer? I'll work on several open source projects, like the IRC client I use right now.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes trinque hey lot, if i buy her plane tickets do you show her portland ? a week or so ?
☟︎ justJanne: Nah thanks, don't wanna go into a country where anyone can be declared terrorist and stripped of their rights
trinque: portland would be too capitalist for her
justJanne: (Yes, the laws in Germany apply to all "people", not just citizens)
trinque: there should be a lot less citizens.
justJanne: Germany has a child per family rate of 1.4
justJanne: So far below the replacement rate of 2.25
justJanne: Automatically shrinking the population to a point where it is sustainable.
williamdunne: Yes, plenty of children to pay for their communist parents
mircea_popescu: or to a point where the muslims can just come in and rape you stupid lot into shape.,
justJanne: 19% of the population are foreigners and migrants
justJanne: You don't get it without a degree and a guarantee for a job, and the circumcised people rarely have the qualifications anyway
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55299 @ 0.00028957 = 16.0129 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: Germany is home to at least 24,000 women from African countries who've undergone female circumcision (as reported by DW in 2004)
chetty: ouch, you makes me squirm
justJanne: The largest wave of immigration was in the 70s and 80s
justJanne: So, 24 thousand immigrants are mutilated.
justJanne: And we pay them free healthcare to fix it.
williamdunne: Sorry Charles about hacking your head off, I'll stitch it back on in just a jiffy! Universal healthcare ftw
justJanne: But again, those are immigrants — they moved here decades after they were mutilated.
justJanne: But I know this because your quote and your article say it.
justJanne: People, immigrants, from African countries, who got mutilated and then moved here
justJanne: So no, it's not a German issue. We still try to do our best to fix the mistakes someone else did.
davout: the logs are soon going to be harder to catch up on than the very fucking blockchain
williamdunne: Have you looked at name-first log synchronization?
mircea_popescu: davout we just made larger logblocks, how you like it ?
davout: well, adoption is on the rise, so what can i say
williamdunne: Socialism to me does seem a lot like the "no kid left behind" school bullshit that appeals to the lowest common denominator and lowers the median
mircea_popescu: in any case the poor girls without the bits can't grow them back up, so in order for everyone to have equal chances at an orgasm, off with your clit!
justJanne: It lowers the average, but increases the median
mircea_popescu: and because the government can alter the deal, here, it's a new law now.
justJanne: Average is the sum divided by the amount.
mircea_popescu: she has a point. it does lower the average but increase the median
mircea_popescu: places with high medians are places not worth living in.
mircea_popescu: the entire point of life is diferentiation from the median.
justJanne: I think places with low median aren't worth living in.
justJanne: williamdunne: please take stochastics 101 at a university,
justJanne: You'll know what mean and average are.
justJanne: Introduction into stochastic, yeah.
williamdunne: "Did you see Stoch's latest concert? It was Stochastic!"
justJanne: Also, it would be in German anyway.
mircea_popescu: you may not speak french, but i do read german nooblet.
justJanne: The mathematicians in Kiel still refuse to use calculators or computers.
justJanne: But Kiel's mathematicians refuse to put anything on the public web.
justJanne: You can get it if you are in their intranet, though.
mircea_popescu: what, you want her to end up in aaron schwartz's cell ?
justJanne: As access to the intranet is bound through X.509 to a user account
williamdunne: A university dedicate to not sharing information, not very socialist of them
justJanne: Anyway, we are going way off topic.
davout: justJanne: for like 12 hours now...
justJanne: Anyway, why are we still arguing? I said I have no issue with you trying to build your state system, I just don't believe it will last, and you guys spending 14h trying to convince me the system I like most is shit.
mircea_popescu: the problem isn't that we're going "off topic", as there isn't a topic. the problem is that you very badly suck at most verbal and cognitive tasks. but hopefully we've run the gamut by now.
chetty: I havent read the whole log but I am curious, is anyone trying to convince, or just stating facts?
mircea_popescu: most of the discussion flows as "comonly held belief 1" "why" "because 2" "why" "because 3" why" "because 1.1" etc
mircea_popescu: anyway, nothing a summer's worth of lurk moar can't fix.
justJanne: The largest issue is that many people discussed with me, each having different opinions.
☟︎ williamdunne: Thats what happens when you talk to a group of people
justJanne: And combined, these people's opinions would cancel each other our.
trinque: we are all different forces on different vectors and we cancel out?
justJanne: Some people said, before, people should be held responsible for the decisions of their ancestors, they can even be punished for them.
justJanne: Some others said taxes are bad, because you personally aren't responsible for them.
justJanne: Combined, the statements are nuts.
williamdunne: Some people said, before, people should be held responsible for the decisions of their ancestors, they can even be punished for them. <<< who actually said this, I'm curious about the justification
mircea_popescu: justJanne the impression you get comes from you observing what's being said with too broad a brush.
justJanne: williamdunne: it was used as defense against my argument that "children should have equal chances, no matter if their parents are poor or rich"
mircea_popescu: for instance, i didn't say people should be punished for what ancestors did. you conflated two statements : 1) that you can't expect me to pay for the poor behaviour of one's ancestors and 2) that i punish people by what they are rather than they wish to be.
williamdunne: What was the actual answer, because not giving them equal chances is very different
justJanne: Because I said "people aren't responsible for the actions of their ancestors"
mircea_popescu: these have precise and rather subtle meanings, is all.
justJanne: So, people should be held responsible for the actions of their ancestors.
mircea_popescu: there's a difference between punishment and responsibility.
mircea_popescu: moreover, the situation where you're poor because daddy was a drunk is neither your punishment nor your responsibility.
williamdunne: We're not all equal, but I don't want to make it worse for you
justJanne: Okay, so, mircea_popescu, taxes are the same
justJanne: The situation that you live in a place with taxes is neither your punishment nor you'd responsibility.
justJanne: Where is the difference between having to pay the debts of your parents
williamdunne: If you're poor.. you can't do something, but nothing actually happens
mircea_popescu: the debts of your parents is a novel development, wasn't discussed before.
justJanne: May those debts be monetary, or indirect.
justJanne: williamdunne: and what is with indirect debt?
justJanne: When your parents are so piss poor you have to work as a child to not starve.
justJanne: Debt is a responsibility of having to pay, yes.
justJanne: But for the person, it is the same.
mircea_popescu: so a bottle and a penis are, for a flatworm, "the same"
mircea_popescu: doesn't mean you can run around sticking bottles up your ass.
☟︎ chetty: <justJanne> When your parents are so piss poor you have to work as a child to not starve.// some might consider that an advantage
justJanne: Thing is, of you have to work and can't go to school,
justJanne: You lose something due to the bad choices of your parents.
justJanne: williamdunne: it shows. It shows very much.
mircea_popescu: that's the way it goes. if you have children, you lose your juvenile figure.
justJanne: Why is inheriting debts different?
justJanne: You said inheriting debts shouldn't be a thing.
williamdunne: No one enforces inheritance, its not a contract
justJanne: Most stocks are a contract saying that you pay money, in return get a part of the profits and the power over a company.
justJanne: But the contract is specifically signed to you.
justJanne: But the contract is again bound to you.
justJanne: So, the question is, should inheriting these contracts be possible?
justJanne: And if yes, why are they so different from debt contracts?
mircea_popescu perceives the deep, faint marks of ancient saxon legal strictures in the girl's attempt.
justJanne: Can your children force the person to pay?
mircea_popescu: fascinating what cultural nationality turns out to be.
justJanne: So, then debt is only inheritable in some cases?
justJanne: This creates an issue with williamdunne's comment.
justJanne: Because either contracts are inheritable, or they are not.
williamdunne: justJanne: No it doesn't, you know I meant debt as if in the liability not the asset
mircea_popescu: the fact that i convey a claim against you to him does not mean he inherited it from me.
justJanne: Debt as a liability and debt as an asset have to be treated the same.
justJanne: We have a contract between two parties.
justJanne: One party can give the contract to another person,
justJanne: But the other party is always bound to it?
mircea_popescu: hey, lex pacta. you can make a contract say whatever you wish it to say
mircea_popescu: the counterpart being that you can never impose a contract on anyone.
justJanne: If the contract is worded so that it provides and obvious disadvantage for one party, it is void.
mircea_popescu: in most of the world (defined as africa), females must have their bits cut off.
trinque: dear god europe allows "it's not fair" to dissolve contracts?
davout: cat freenode_\#bitcoin-assets_2015051* | grep justJanne | wc -l
justJanne: Just because the legal system of The most serene dictatorship was written by amateurs doesn't mean it's good.
mircea_popescu: justJanne just because you think yourself equal to things you don't understand doesn't make 'em so :D
justJanne: I took several undergrad classes in politics, macroeconomy, and political philosophy, I know what I'm talking about ;P
☟︎ mircea_popescu: tbh the best part was where she didn't wanna take a trip to the us because satan lives there.
davout: mircea_popescu: howso?
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 09:49:23; mircea_popescu: justJanne you wanna go ?
mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, we agree. i don't visit the us for the exact same reasons.
davout: i was referring to "davout you got a bet ?"
chetty: <justJanne> I took several undergrad classes in politics, macroeconomy, and political philosophy, I know what I'm talking about ;P//OH MY
davout puts ms office paperclip costume on
davout: "DID YOU MEAN, 'A BED' ?"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26963 @ 0.00029017 = 7.8239 BTC [+] {2}
justJanne: Most other people would have fallen for your propagandistic claims.
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 09:27:49; mircea_popescu: clever chick with a head fulla stupid meets #b-a. anyone care to bet on the linecount total ?
davout: i kind of expected more tbh
davout: yea, i probably suck at such estimates
williamdunne: “Just to be clear, I’m not a professional ‘politician’. I’m just a german teenager who greatly values her intelligence and political fact over any silly idea conjured up some years ago. This being said, I am open to any and all criticism.
williamdunne: ‘In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any popescu’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence and state-funded education system.’"
davout: i have like less than half this for may
mircea_popescu: and, in a fascinating turn of what sexism really is, remember that one time when ben_vulpes had a friend over, about the same age, about the same ideas and i bit his head off ?
justJanne: The issue is that most women prefer social stability over the chance to get rich.
mircea_popescu: this is not an issue, for as long as they understand that this is ok for them and unpleasant for others.
justJanne: Most people here agree on this, though.
justJanne: The stuff most women prefer in general,
mircea_popescu: dun make those statements, they're stupid things for stupid people. here, this, blah.
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 10:34:24; justJanne: I took several undergrad classes in politics, macroeconomy, and political philosophy, I know what I'm talking about ;P
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 10:36:43; justJanne: Most other people would have fallen for your propagandistic claims.
justJanne: Is preferred by most of society here.
justJanne: Interestingly, you should read about the veil of ignorance.
mircea_popescu: justJanne "most of society" that gets a voice, which is bored women.
justJanne: And, interestingly, this thought experiment almost always ends in the Nordic model.
mircea_popescu: you seriously contemplate teh notion i'm not aware of "veil of ignorance" etc ?
justJanne: So, assuming this experiment, how can you be for an anarchist society,
justJanne: When you yourself might end up a piss poor person?
williamdunne: When you yourself might end up a piss poor person? << being well off isn't left to chance
mircea_popescu: i built more fortunes thjan you had boyfriends to date
mircea_popescu: being poor is only a problem if you belong there. otherwise, it's like being dirty.
justJanne: How would you design a society, assuming you have to live in it later, you can be any person in it, it is random.
mircea_popescu: people are not "random", leaves in the wind at the mercy of 1984-esque government.
justJanne: Of course most people end up designing a society where everyone has enough to live, but also has chance to become rich.
mircea_popescu: again : people are not rootless, leaves in the wind of "society".
mircea_popescu: to propose that you can randomly switch people around as if they were interchangeable parts is already to introduce socialism as a given
mircea_popescu: socialism is not only not a given, it is the system of organised stupidity.
mircea_popescu: and no matter what happens, you can't be me. maybe being you is still cool and worth being. maybe it isn't.
mircea_popescu: if it isn't your'e fucked, because that's what you'll ever be.
justJanne: The idea is to create a society where every person has an acceptable life.
mircea_popescu: that idea is about on par with "i wonder if superman could beat batman"
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Thats actually becoming a film I think
mircea_popescu: if you take the vouches of idiots seriously, it works, sure.
justJanne: Take for example my father, no money, piss poor. Would have had no money for studying. But also not able to work heavy work.
justJanne: Thanks to free education, he studied law.
williamdunne: justJanne: Don't mistake this for being a channel where everyone had rich parents
justJanne: Without free education, he couldn't have ever afforded it.
mircea_popescu: justJanne so he studied law and you still need the state to put you through college ?
williamdunne: Too many lawyers, education diluted the market I'm guessing
mircea_popescu: williamdunne nah, in germany being a lawyer is like being a clerk.
justJanne: Also, there are different kinds of lawyers.
mircea_popescu: williamdunne socialism, so: everything an equally shitty option, but
justJanne: There are also corporal lawyers working in companies writing legal terms for contracts all day long.
mircea_popescu: "hey, be thankful for the little you get" and all that jazz.
williamdunne: It’s not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the ‘right’ to education, the ‘right’ to health care, the ‘right’ to food and housing. That’s not freedom, that’s dependency. Those aren’t rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.
justJanne: He could have worked as legal attorney,
justJanne: But he preferred the stable job in a company over the risk of having to depend on clients.
mircea_popescu: well, don't you think he should be ashamed of himself, in front of you ?
mircea_popescu: other people's dads did a lot better, unlike his lazy ass.
mircea_popescu: you wanna be ~my~ father, you shoulda done a shitload better than this stupid shit.
williamdunne: Being risk averse isn't a good idea generally speaking, if you want to be succeeding at anything.
justJanne: Being risk averse is a very stable solution, though.
mircea_popescu: i can't stand it in people, and especially not in men. imagine the unbearable conversation of someone who prefers the stability of bureaucratism and "not having to depend on clients"
justJanne: This is Germany. The place where people will wait at an empty crosswalk at 3am on Sunday.
williamdunne: Safety is the precedent for anything dystopian
mircea_popescu: since in her world sartre never happened, as didn't voltaire.
mircea_popescu: you know, that's how rich men dump young girls ? "what did you think of the film" "meh" "specifically ?" "i just didn't like it"
justJanne: But it was 3 years ago, and in school, so I don't remember much more except for getting in an argument with my teacher.
mircea_popescu: the next thing coming is "you know, i don't think we should be seeing each other anymore"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81697 @ 0.00027937 = 22.8237 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: williamdunne i was reduced to googling for your coupla phrases. reddit comes up.
gribble: ┌━ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ *pew!* *pew!* *pew!*
justJanne: Also, you often don't need laws or regulations, as they are often ignored, if you use society or physics, it works better. Example: the streets in my city. If you have no parking lots anywhere in the city, people will have to use public transport. And private investors are happy too, because they can build parking lots and charge moon prices. 8$/h
mircea_popescu: and if you have no toilet paper or jeans, eager kiel sluts will suck capitalist cock for a song
justJanne: The market will correct itself, if there is a market.
mircea_popescu: who knew that the reunification of germany was going to go the other way.
justJanne: The current nordic model was already discussed and partially implemented in the 1800s
mircea_popescu: lol. what is with socialism and its desperate need to a) pretend it has a different name now and b) pretend it has historical roots ?
justJanne: The Nordic model is what Marx meant, but Lenin and Stalin went totally retarded.
justJanne: He really only complains about cartels, monopolies, unfair wages, and in general no public services.
justJanne: Tbh, even the US nowadays is quite close to what Marx described.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45397 @ 0.00027814 = 12.6267 BTC [-]
justJanne: Socialism, originally, was intended to do exactly this: give everyone equal chances, but then let them do their own thing. Of course you can start a company and become rich, this is no issue, as long as no one starves to death.
mircea_popescu: "you can start a company as long as it doesn't matter or do anything important"
☟︎ assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32450 @ 0.00026973 = 8.7527 BTC [-] {2}
justJanne: You can start a company, and become a huge multinational even, as long as everyone has enough to fulfill their basic needs.
justJanne: And there are many successful Nordic startups and companies.
justJanne: Money is a thing invented by people.
williamdunne: Its sort of not invented but pretty much inherent to humans
williamdunne: Hence why the Indians die and Europeans rule the world
mircea_popescu: doesn't mean rocks didn't fall before, but it does mean it wasn't called gravity.
williamdunne: doesn't mean rocks didn't fall before, but it does mean it wasn't called gravity. << this is exactly what I mean
mircea_popescu: so, yes, the idiocy of socialism, no matter how named, and the superiority of la serenissima, etc, are rules of the world, and drive it whether named or unnamed.
justJanne: Money is invented just like laws, or countriez
mircea_popescu: but other than that, money was invented and reinvented by people, most recently being called bitcoin.
williamdunne: Money has existed since before government was a concept that meant anything other than some tribe leader with a bone through his nose
williamdunne: And it has been "invented" god knows how many times independently
williamdunne: It stems from the idea of ownership and necessity of a common unit
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15747 @ 0.00027036 = 4.2574 BTC [+]
williamdunne: You know those dead bikers? Turns out they didn't actually kill anyone
williamdunne: It was a knife fight, and as soon as one biker pulled a gun the swat opened automatic fire
justJanne: More kills in one day than the police here in 70 years -.-
williamdunne: justJanne: When it comes to it, the German soldiers will either massacre civilians or execute gov officials
mircea_popescu: Sergeant Patrick Swanton, a spokesman for the Waco Police Department, called the attendees. “A bunch of criminal element biker members that came to Waco and tried to instill violence into our community and unfortunately did just that…. This is not a bunch of doctors and dentists and lawyers riding Harleys. These are criminals on Harley-Davidsons.”
mircea_popescu: sucks that most of the kids are online geeks / webexperts i guess.
williamdunne: Thats pretty meta - isn't it. Sergeant is on the list of criminals
mircea_popescu: Sergeant Swanton said, “What occurred here today is the worst-case scenario when a business owner puts profit over human lives. It’s sad. This could have all been avoided.”
mircea_popescu: ahahaha "Waco police claim the violence could have prevented if Jay Patel, the operating partner at the independently owned Waco franchise, had simply banned the Confederation of Clubs from meeting there"
williamdunne: Its not even that country, I'm pretty sure the same would be said elsewhere in fairness
mircea_popescu: eslewhere where, in the "democratic" republic of germany ? (following kruschev's revelation on stalin!)
mircea_popescu: Since the massacre, police have announced that there is “credible information about threats toward law enforcement.” Waco police issued a bulletin at 10:13 Sunday night that announced: “Our agency has recieved (sic) information that the Cosaks (sic) and Banditos (sic) have issued an order to kill anyone in uniform.”
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Oh noes, the lawyers and doctors too!
mircea_popescu: kinda funny how the "we totally fucked up. it was our job to keep things smooth and well... we blew it" thing never comes out of us police.
davout: trinque: did it werked? ^
chetty: <mircea_popescu> ahahaha "Waco police claim the violence could have prevented if Jay Patel, the operating partner at the independently owned Waco franchise, had simply banned the Confederation of Clubs from meeting there"//of course that would work, would have happened at the place down the street instead.
mircea_popescu: "we didn't just butcher a bunch of marginal retards in a parking lot. it was because of the moon. the guy that made the roof 15 years ago is to blame. it';s because texas has straight borders"
mircea_popescu: how about you know, you just suck about as bad as the car mechanic that sets customers' cars on fire.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 89471 @ 0.00029065 = 26.0047 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50503 @ 0.00028874 = 14.5822 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49001 @ 0.00026862 = 13.1626 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50600 @ 0.00028291 = 14.3152 BTC [+] {3}
funkenstein_: ooh look non-sychophant in channel, nice logs :)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63950 @ 0.00026798 = 17.1373 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: funkenstein_ omfg what are you like the socialist party in hiding, waiting for reinforcements ?
punkman: mircea_popescu, that's a peculiar text, I wonder how it was made
funkenstein_: perhaps for some value of "socialist party" :)
williamdunne: Okay, Scoop should be 24/7 now, and even if he crashes the things he has posted should be persistent nao
mircea_popescu: you gonna add the bitbet posting functionality ? a lot more sensible i nscoop than i ndeedbot
williamdunne: I can, I hadn't seen the request but I'm happy to add it
assbot: BtcAlpha.com F.MPIF Tracker estimated NAV per share: 0.00021368 B (Total: 467.27 B). Delta: 0.09 B. Last trade for F.MPIF on MPEX was at 0.000207 BTC [+]
jurov: and accurate predictions!
assbot: [MPEX:F.MPIF] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: 0.000207 / 0.000207 / 0.000207 (20000 shares, 4.14 BTC), 30D: 0.000206 / 0.00020659 / 0.000207 (74560 shares, 15.40 BTC)
mircea_popescu: check it out, they gave out the internet rations in twodogs today
nubbins`: what's this about a banner then
mircea_popescu: listen nubsy, make a banner for your dubious publisher of offensive posters
nubbins`: mircea_popescu like any ol' banner, or something more specific?
nubbins`: o you mean a web banner or smth don't you.
jurov: well, you can make paper one and scan it it
jurov: for the derps to "tell by the pixels not professionally done"
nubbins`: how many times so far this year have derps sent me files at terrible resolution for screenprinting
nubbins`: "but it looks ok on my screen"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 100149 @ 0.00026827 = 26.867 BTC [+] {2}
nubbins`: hey now, you computer folk misappropriated the word.
nubbins`: that box of lights is no more a screen than my left shoe!!
nubbins`: anyway, summertime rush is picking up
nubbins`: and i've somehow decided to publish a fully-silkscreened book that'll cost $100 per issue
jurov: what? stan's book is finished?
nubbins`: i'd be surprised if that thing gets printed before 2020
nubbins`: and this book is like 20 pages
mircea_popescu: ((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((do)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
nubbins`: did i mention that i was detained in a security room at cleveland hopkins airport for 13 hours because of this place?
nubbins`: they did make me hold my arms out like an airplane while they touched my dick tho
☟︎ jurov: did they found the rsa keys?
williamdunne wonders if persistence thingy will work this time
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18500 @ 0.00026858 = 4.9687 BTC [+]
williamdunne: Well, Scoop is now working, although Assbot won't listen to commands so he can't up himself
williamdunne wonders why people are worried about an AI takeover
nubbins`: for those of you who are not canadian, yellow shirt man got fired from his $100k/yr job as an engineer at a public utility the day after this video came out
mircea_popescu: if you are gonna do it, then what happened to "yeah bitch, exactly."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55550 @ 0.00026858 = 14.9196 BTC [+]
assbot: You rated user jurov on 22-Apr-2014, with a rating of 3, and supplied these additional notes: this nick maps to a real person i have met IRL, also CoinBR.
mod6: You'll notice that there are two times that during the full blockchain sync, bitcoind got oomkill'd.
mod6: Again, this is just the bitcoin-v0_5_3_1-RELEASE -- no patches added.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24527 @ 0.00027005 = 6.6235 BTC [+] {3}
davout: "As a global index leader and administrator of ICE LIBOR, ICE Futures U.S. Dollar Index and many other notable benchmarks, we are pleased to bring transparency to this market."
davout: "We are now going to use our name, reputation and global index provider stature to provide bitcoin values that the rest of the market can look to," says Tom Farley, who serves as president of NYSE, the venerable financial institution that has come to symbolize Wall Street and capitalism more broadly.
williamdunne: "Sorry we're late to the party, hey girlz, wanna see my handstand?"
davout: it's not that they're late, it's just... wtf
davout: "NYXBT utilizes a unique methodology that relies on rules-based logic to analyze a dataset of matched transactions and verify the integrity of the data to ultimately produce an objective and fair daily value for one bitcoin in U.S. Dollars as of 16:00 London time."
funkenstein_: bringing transparency to US markets, at 16:00 London Time
mod6: Process_Switches hits >4000 on v0_5_3_1-RELEASE-Charts when it oomkill'd
mod6: then straight down to 0.
punkman: "The NYSE Bitcoin Index will initially feature data from transactions from Coinbase Exchange, the leading U.S.-based bitcoin exchange. In 2015, NYSE made a minority investment in Coinbase"
punkman: well that's gonna be fun to watch
justJanne: Anyway, I'm sorry, but I don't have much time arguing with people like you stupidly about fictional politics.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28400 @ 0.00026788 = 7.6078 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42026 @ 0.00026419 = 11.1028 BTC [-] {2}
davout: she did broke the 1000 lines count while at it though
ben_vulpes: > arguing stupidly << accidentally totally spot on
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 23:03:57; justJanne: mod6: power is not the issue.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35000 @ 0.00027836 = 9.7426 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: one wonders what'd be the bar for non-fictional politics.
jurov: well, i saw nobody explain to her how does the nordic model actually does not exist
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28684 @ 0.00027836 = 7.9845 BTC [+]
jurov: there were mostly fictional counterexamples
jurov: and mircea's "i do what i want"
mircea_popescu: the age old problem with being clueless - it impairs metacognition too.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25766 @ 0.00028789 = 7.4178 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: look at the cute idiots, they're going to call no philosophies. because that's how it works, for keepsies! they called it!
mod6: "lists are for nerds."
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: what's with the ~ in b,tmsro~ ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42185 @ 0.00027136 = 11.4473 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes old library convention, so the list doesn't consist of half the items filed under TH
ben_vulpes searches memory for previous occurrences of the ~
ben_vulpes: dude you know i think this is another thing americans simply shrugged and decided to not bother with
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes they might have decided not to teach kids anymore, but it was in use back in the day
ben_vulpes: not even not taught, but not even used
ben_vulpes spent rather a lot of time in libraries as a wee one
mircea_popescu: anyway, this particular usage is the reason tilde even exists on computer keyboards.
ben_vulpes: i'm deeming the justJanne word salad as skippable
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 09:27:49; mircea_popescu: clever chick with a head fulla stupid meets #b-a. anyone care to bet on the linecount total ?
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 as an item in a list. << hehe
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 09:49:00; mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes trinque hey lot, if i buy her plane tickets do you show her portland ? a week or so ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58550 @ 0.00026142 = 15.3061 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21306 @ 0.00025917 = 5.5219 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 10:24:05; mircea_popescu: doesn't mean you can run around sticking bottles up your ass.
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 11:08:18; mircea_popescu: "you can start a company as long as it doesn't matter or do anything important"
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 13:59:00; nubbins`: they did make me hold my arms out like an airplane while they touched my dick tho
ben_vulpes off to not matter and do things of nil importance
danielpbarron: sounds too much like pedopalooza; even has the bear
danielpbarron: other side of country, is in portland, is a month long!?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82193 @ 0.00025908 = 21.2946 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Logged on 18-05-2015 18:56:11; Apocalyptic: on a 311 decimal base number I have my doubts, even msieve refuses to crunch it
ascii_field: ;;later tell mircea_popescu *exactly like the one i showed you earlier. virtually same type of modifications.*
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40099 @ 0.00025515 = 10.2313 BTC [-] {2}
ascii_field: ;;later tell mircea_popescu aaand you've got mail
funkenstein_: I saw my first advert-in-captcha this week. Nasty.
mats: www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2015/papers/6949a591.pdf 'S$A: A Shared Cache Attack that Works Across Cores and Defies VMSandboxing—and its Application to AES'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66706 @ 0.00025329 = 16.896 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57694 @ 0.00025169 = 14.521 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 117200 @ 0.00025037 = 29.3434 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57950 @ 0.00025892 = 15.0044 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9087 @ 0.00025892 = 2.3528 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51465 @ 0.00026105 = 13.4349 BTC [+]
trinque: ah there it goes, good deal.
trinque turns off deedbot-'s rss-er
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 16:11:34; ben_vulpes: i'm deeming the justJanne word salad as skippable
trinque: just a kid yelling about how they want to be the change they want to see...
trinque: I think at 19 I considered myself an "anarchocapitalist"
jurov: i consider everyone here (maybe except mircea) a proud wannabe alley cats,still hooked to petting and milk
jurov: both sides of that discussion made me cringe
☟︎ ascii_field laboratory cat, gets milk, not so much petting, and occasional medical experiments
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26000 @ 0.00026713 = 6.9454 BTC [+]
trinque: "potential terrorist activity" << nice orwellian term there
trinque: Congressman Mike Rogers told the RSA audience more than once that metadata in bulk surveillance collection "is just the 'To: From:' like the front of an envelope."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11035 @ 0.00026713 = 2.9478 BTC [+]
decimation: you can push & pop patches to a source tree easily
decimation: apparently used in the kernel world to manage massive patchsets
jurov: well, our problem is not patch management, but *reading* them
assbot: Logged on 19-05-2015 08:03:40; justJanne: I don't know. I have no issues with you guys building a state of anarchy,
trinque: stand back guys; I'm going to build an anarchy
jurov: ANARCHY MUST BE ENFORCED AT ALL COSTS
☟︎ decimation: if the magic to living the 'nordic freedom' dream is 50% tax plus redistribution, why doesn't that seem to work in somalia? are they too stupid to understand the concept?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95550 @ 0.00027405 = 26.1855 BTC [+]
ascii_field gets 50% taxed without (seeing any of the) redistribution
ascii_field: can't help but imagine this being the reason why so many folks who aren't obviously retarded, are in favour of the handouts
ascii_field: scarcely anyone imagines that the theft might stop,
ascii_field: but it is a slightly less outlandish fantasy to picture getting some of it back as bread&circuses or whichever.
jurov: fantasies don't count
ascii_field: jurov: they 'count' in the psychiatric sense of explaining where the voices the patient listened to when he swung the axe appeared to come from.
decimation: mircea seems to credit the german geography for why 'nordic freedom' 'seems to work'. but I suggest it is the people themselves - having been beaten by the romans for centuries, and then forced by the church to mate outside their immediate family, they developed a concept of 'kinship' beyond L2 cousins
☟︎ assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31684 @ 0.00027711 = 8.78 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59050 @ 0.00027595 = 16.2948 BTC [-] {2}
jurov: hooray for citizen psychiatry!
mats: Ex Machina was a huge disappointment
mats: camera at the door takes his pic, prints access card with his face on it, but for whatever reason a super-secure AI dev facility doesn't so much as use the pic for user verification
punkman: ^ agreed, it was pretty stupid
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82600 @ 0.00028318 = 23.3907 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16743 @ 0.00028455 = 4.7642 BTC [+]
ascii_field: decimation: from my experience, these 'fanless' things invariably rely on -some- case fan being present
decimation: yeah, it would be interesting to try it out
ascii_field: a gadget which has no 'hedgehog' open to room air is a nonstarter for true fanlessness
ascii_field: can i also exchange the downstream devices it will nuke when it does? l0l
decimation: usually power supplies don't nuke the downstream stuff, but it can happen
ascii_field: decimation: some years ago, i purchased a 'fanless' ps and discovered, to my grief, that a number of misc. components on the (cpu water-cooled) mb relied on having -some- airflow
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 124550 @ 0.00028482 = 35.4743 BTC [+]
decimation: yeah, they don't put that in the spec, but who knows. if the supply is really efficient, it ought not generate much heat
kakobrekla: i dun have a fanless seasonic but it has its fan off most of the time
kakobrekla: even when it goes on, dun hear it really
ascii_field: i've seen systems like this, but, sadly, nothing with amd (nor do i expect to. they're 'frying pans.')
ascii_field: kakobrekla: aha but what is it plugged into
ben_vulpes: <jurov> i consider everyone here (maybe except mircea) a proud wannabe alley cats,still hooked to petting and milk << and i the mangiest
jurov: lol.. your know how to hide your patchy fur in photos then
ben_vulpes: my patchy beauty is on THE INSIDE, jurov!
mats: halp halp im being oppressed
jurov: we're having a contest who's mangiest inside
ascii_field: '2015-05-19 20:12:17One or More Panels Have Begun Manual SMT Placement'
jurov: for rng or cardano?
ascii_field: in other news, 10 moduli as of a few hrs ago
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 110800 @ 0.00027802 = 30.8046 BTC [-]
jurov: ;;seen scoopbot_revived
assbot: [MPEX:S.QNTR] 1D: 0 / 0 / 0 (0 shares, 0 BTC), 7D: 0.00032592 / 0.00034038 / 0.00035271 (3400 shares, 1.16 BTC), 30D: 0.00025534 / 0.00031692 / 0.00035271 (13584 shares, 4.31 BTC)
trinque: williamdunne: turned the deedbot- rss'er off
jurov: no it's 30D volume
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60250 @ 0.00028141 = 16.955 BTC [+] {2}
williamdunne: Anyone seen this? From a glance looks like a good scalability solution.
jurov: or if it's meant for misc data, then it's done by deedbot already
jurov: smells like something a patent troll could put together
williamdunne: Its like sidechains but doesn't require a fork
williamdunne: Stores hashes of the blocks in the bitcoin blockchain
jurov: oh i wanted to ask, did you think about prevention of resubmitting same clearsigned text many times?
trinque: aside that nah, if it's signed by L1 or L2 it goes out
jurov: um. with email submission, i don't even know
jurov: it already does SHA sum of whole clearsigned text, but comment can be changed so this is useless
jurov: you know clearsigned text has modifiable comment line?
trinque: either somebody produces the original text of the thing or deedbot has nothing to say about it
jurov: if someone uses temporary voice to resubmit existing deed 1000 times, deedbot has nothing to say about it?
☟︎ assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93900 @ 0.00028296 = 26.5699 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: since you're paranoid enough to have a whitelist of sources, i thought you thought about that
trinque: jurov: couldn't remember so I went and looked
ben_vulpes: > sender confirmed for msexchange user
trinque: it will do a crappy check against the json api to see if the nick plonking in a deed is trusted, however, I don't know of an api that gives whether the nick on IRC is authenticated
trinque: if there's a URL for that it'd be trivial to add
jurov: i decided to make sha1sums of decrypted text (and in future check them for duplicity)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40800 @ 0.00028528 = 11.6394 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: pity that gpg offers no facilities to distinguish signatures except for date
trinque: afaik using a deedbot against the blockchain is the only actually verifiable way of timestamping data that exists
jurov: yes but i'm not about timestamping. i'm about checking if two clearsigned files are identical
mod6: ok, so v0.5.3 is compiled and running -- im doing a nmon perf collection on that as well. then we'll have all three to compare.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31950 @ 0.00028717 = 9.1751 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 114000 @ 0.00027757 = 31.643 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 78876 @ 0.00027686 = 21.8376 BTC [-] {2}
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: 0.5.3 (virginal, aside from db lock patch), 0.5.3.1-RELEASE and 0.5.3.1-RELEASE + orphanage thermonuke
jurov: it's the nubbins` tax patch
mod6: <+asciilifeform> why would we expect a meaningful difference in performance between 1 and 2 ? << i don't, but we need a benchmark anyway so we can make some assertions
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: 3 ? <+mod6> Ok, the v0_5_3_1-RELEASE performance test is complete. Charts are posted here if you'd like to view:
http://thebitcoin.foundation/v0_5_3_1-RELEASE-Charts/ <+mod6> You'll notice that there are two times that during the full blockchain sync, bitcoind got oomkill'd. <+mod6> Again, this is just the bitcoin-v0_5_3_1-RELEASE -- no patches added. <+mod6> And for reference, here's where you can view the performance tes
mod6: we'll be correlating all the data and putting together a bit of a press-release and notes along with it as soon as the v0.5.3 perf test is complete