▁▁▁▁▁▁▁⏐︎▁ 9168
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes there's really nothing wrong in asking anything.
mircea_popescu: futile it may be ; but that's really up to teh asker.
mircea_popescu: also, i see absolutely no reason why log continuity would be disrupted ?!
ben_vulpes: when i asked, you said "none of you dickbags get off your asses and actually do anything, why would i ask of you one whit"
mircea_popescu: wait, wut ?
asciilifeform: i recall this.
mircea_popescu: you'll hafta quote.
ben_vulpes quotes, quotes http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=08-03-2016#1426381 ☝︎
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=14-03-2016#1432257 ☝︎
phf: of snap it's a quote-off! two boys enter, one man leave!
mircea_popescu: well now. alf's easily disposed of : bitbet did in fact go into such receivership ; i have little doubt ben_vulpes is doing things. so that's that.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes' is not easily disposed of.
mircea_popescu: but there's a space between what your quote shows and what "futility-cum-insubordination of a footsoldier asking anything" means.
mircea_popescu: (there's also a difference between asking admiral lord nelson what color are his flags ; or how his cannons work ; and asking him why he put the ships in a line ten apart. but this for another time.)
ben_vulpes: i asked "why did you not bring this before the forum first?", and received "what, /you/ idiots?", from which i derive that i am not to expect answers, and if to not expect answer why ask?
mircea_popescu: the fact of teh matter is that the forum's not there yet.
ben_vulpes: nevertheless, ask i did, and answer of some sort i received.
asciilifeform: when i asked re: the cartel, i got : http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-03-2016#1432648 ☝︎
asciilifeform: sorta like usg's 'classified due to Sources & Methods (tm)' form letter reply.
mircea_popescu: there is an outstanding issue ; i dunno how much you actually still credit the (separate network - not miner cartel) theory. i dunno how to approach that to make it plain to you it holds no water. tho it necessarily doesn't.
asciilifeform: i believe that mircea_popescu is a clever fella, and that, given the prior available to HIM, it 'necessarily doesn't'
asciilifeform: but not with ~mine~
asciilifeform: from my perch it is not distinguishable from bush's 'weapons of mass destruction' thing
mircea_popescu: i would expect it to be dissolvable on purely formal grounds, because the whole thing is nothing other and nothing more than a nominal attempt. but dunno why this isn't obvious.;
mircea_popescu: so it'll have to wait.
ben_vulpes: our very own pascalian wager
mircea_popescu: as you know - the serbs, using very primitive technology, shot down an "invisible" fighter jet.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu thinks 'nominal attempt' - as in 'hasty justification because asciilifeform had indigestion and was inclined to harp on mircea_popescu for no good reason' ?
asciilifeform: whereas i've modelled sybilatrons for ages.
mircea_popescu: it ~could~ be argued that what they shot down was an ACTOR plane acting the part of being a fighter jet in a film about serbs.
mircea_popescu: that saying would be in no way distinguishable from this other theory.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, no.
mircea_popescu: just... you know... "how did actor plane end up in us controlled airspace ?" "well... they were in on it" "so it was a us plane" "uh no.. it was NOT REALLY." "mk ?"
asciilifeform: better example, bear with me:
mircea_popescu: so i will.
asciilifeform: a top-of-the-line american jet is found with a clean fist-sized hole lengthwise, incl. pilot's arse. pieces reassembled, and everyone shits their pants in astonishment.
asciilifeform: two theories dominate,
mircea_popescu: (for the curious, the primitive technology was, dumbass plane shading microwave towers. same thing the germans used to fire their rocket plane munitions in ww2.)
asciilifeform: one - ru prayed in new spiffy church and god interceded, carefully carved hole in plane and pilot's arse.
asciilifeform: other - that ru had electron beam gun.
asciilifeform: no hard proof of (a) or (b)
asciilifeform: but i hold that (b) is more reasonable hypothesis ipso facto.
mircea_popescu: identify the pairs in this example for my benefit cuz i dun see any relation ?
asciilifeform: because ~weighs less~
asciilifeform: (a) is cartel, (b) - sybils.
mircea_popescu: this is a very poor identification.
asciilifeform: perhaps with respect to (a)
asciilifeform: cartel of miners is something that plausibly may exist, as i said before. but i do not see it as the ~necessary hypothesis~
mircea_popescu: it seems to me any operative model for this dispute will have to be a) item that does something ; b) which would be restricted to members of a priviledged class ; c) which the item is purported not to be a member of ; d) while admitting the priviledged class was necessarily aware of the behaviour and tolerant of it.
mircea_popescu: how c and d can both stand is a very curious thing indeed.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu has the time/patience, let's arithmetize
mircea_popescu: i'm not going anywhere.
asciilifeform: argument here is - if miners do not ~collectively~ countenance the sybil, it cannot operate ?
mircea_popescu: not collectively, but unanimously.
asciilifeform: aha
mircea_popescu: to a measurable but in any case low tolerance. sure, 0.000001% hash won't matter.
asciilifeform: this is the exact point where i disagreed, the last time we did this thread and were interrupted
asciilifeform: sybil has the upper hand over miners
asciilifeform: because miners do not generate tx
mircea_popescu: miners do not need tx to get paid.
mircea_popescu: currently they make 9x% of their money from stipend.
asciilifeform: their margin is so pathologically narrow that the tx matter
mircea_popescu: you understgand this "? yes sybil problems will be incredible once that goes away
asciilifeform: aha, yes
mircea_popescu: but for now, the miners yet have the upper hand, as long as that lasts.
asciilifeform: but they are so threadbare, that a loss of 2-3% can mean death.
asciilifeform: even now.
mircea_popescu: not for the cartel.
mircea_popescu: which is why there's one.
mircea_popescu: yes, it's true that the naive view of bitcoin network rapidly collapses into your view, on the basis of your theory.
asciilifeform: ftr the cartel exists unquestionably, the high-S derpage is proof of it
asciilifeform: (why NO high-S miners?)
mircea_popescu: in reality however it odes not - because it collapses into a state of even lower energy even faster.
asciilifeform: hm?
mircea_popescu: your idea with (indepoendent miners very threadbare + sybil) is much higher latent heat than the (miner cartel) situation.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i buy the miner cartel! if you recall, i walked into #b-a with miner cartel.
mircea_popescu: it may get a run for its money 3-4-6 halvings down the road. maybe even one for each.
asciilifeform: (to some laughter)
asciilifeform: it ~is~ the low-energy state of the system
mircea_popescu: at the time it was politically expedient to not admit the possibility ; even as it loomed.
asciilifeform: (hamiltonian mechanics recommended to all in the audience, helps)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i grasped this.
asciilifeform: it was a difficult time, smart folks were very difficult to persuade to give a damn re bitcoin
mircea_popescu: smart folk are difficult to persuade to give a damn about anything other than onanism.
mircea_popescu: it's the curse of humanity.
asciilifeform: i walked the razor blade for a very long time, ended up very p0000r for it
asciilifeform: if i had even so much as mined on the ~fpgas that i already owned~ when the thing began, i would be in neighbouring dirigible to mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: if this won't be enough instruction to be as slutty as you can as young as you can get your cunt wet...
asciilifeform: generally it is not an interesting line of thought, it is on par with 'if i knew today's lottery number last week'
mircea_popescu: not quite. one can be a whore today. time ticks away.
asciilifeform: but i have less excuse than most, i followed the subject before it was a subject, had my own crackpot bitcoin, unpublished, a decade ago, etc.
mircea_popescu: you ever read the sufferances of young werther btw ?
asciilifeform: yes!
mircea_popescu: and they think goethe was a genius
asciilifeform: (spoiler re: above: blockchain as an exponentiated-primes product!111)
mircea_popescu: da fuck did he know.
asciilifeform: anyway i'm a (p0000r) whore today, fwiw.
mircea_popescu: prosit.
asciilifeform: hm
asciilifeform: briefly back to thread, i credit miner cartel, as i did in the beginning, as the INEVITABLE consequence of satoshi IDIOCY
asciilifeform: the whole design, like the infamous 'galloping gertie' dud bridge, leads to this.
mircea_popescu: while the man wasn't the bright and fresh messiah we all would have no doubt preferred,
mircea_popescu: i am not sure this one is on his hump.
asciilifeform: how not ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu himself teaches us that 'you are responsible for ALL questions on the exam'
asciilifeform: satoshi ~could~ have invented mircea_popescu's hybrid pow/pos algo.
mircea_popescu: sure, sure,
mircea_popescu: but it is altogether unclear the problem can be at all FIXED.
asciilifeform: i can see at least a dozen effective variants of fix.
mircea_popescu: to fix what, the troubles you met ?
mircea_popescu: troubles you met how, by following the blowups of the fix he did for the problems he did see ?
asciilifeform: to fix the 'miners can selectively deny tx', for instance
mircea_popescu: yay us , i guess.
mircea_popescu: what can you tell me of the unknown unknowns ?
asciilifeform: as well as 'idiots can mine without operating node'
mircea_popescu: a very poor understanding of actual finance and actual economics, as much as it is the direct cause of floundering of the formerly great american empire ; is also directly evident at work in bitcoin and among the geeks.
asciilifeform: a well-designed ~mathematical~ mechanism doesn't HAVE 'unknown unknowns.' it has PROOF where 'unless x,y,z ' (e.g., ecdsa break, or p==np) 'mechanism works such-n-such'
mircea_popescu: gavin has nfi idea ; but generally - this stuff is hard, and the people who grok it damned few if extant at all.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform last i checked with the learned monks, they didn't even have a FUCKING CIPHER
mircea_popescu: but that was so long ago perhaps the monastery has meanwhile been rebuilt upside down ?
asciilifeform: l0l
mircea_popescu: very good news indeed!
mircea_popescu: anyway, alf : we share in teh ideals. lemme convict the man for wearing down the rails deliberately after i see the superconducting magnetorail in operation.
mircea_popescu: anyway. i also recommend hamiltonians for they interested in becoming less dumb in finance & economy than the famous sheep of http://trilema.com/2010/rabinul-si-oaia/
asciilifeform: there's an engl ver
asciilifeform: on trilema no less, iirc
mircea_popescu: ah right you are.
asciilifeform: i will give example, of the precious few 'gifts of the learned monks',
asciilifeform: rsa is NOT publicly proven to be equivalent to Factoring in difficulty;
asciilifeform: cramer-shoup ~is~ provably equivalent to diffie-hellman discrete log.
mircea_popescu: no, really, their efforts and value are not for a second in question. but the bridge to absolute "a well designed mathematical mechanism" has not yet been made
mircea_popescu: for that matter, the site's nto even picked as of yet.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-10-2014#856353 << possible starting point, but i misplace the mega-thread ☝︎
asciilifeform: 'martian bank'
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=14-04-2015#1100378 << possibly better ☝︎
mircea_popescu: anyway, ima be taking the sluts to a nude promenade, bbl.
asciilifeform goes off for a scale model version of this
trinque: if C-M-\ isn't a hair from C-M-Backspace...
mod6: <+asciilifeform> now i could be wrong, perhaps it ~won't~ become a magnet for the vermin that were previously shot on sight << already is!
asciilifeform: mod6: right now it's mainly kako, phf, and i
asciilifeform: mod6: arithmetizing what the events of today would look like on a gossiptronic net.
trinque: good evening mike_c
mike_c: hello
mod6: asciilifeform: not talking about now anyhow.
mod6: anyway, re your ddt comment, seems to be an analog for "a hole where the night creeps in"
mod6: mike to the c!
mod6: what is up
mike_c: hey :) good to see you
asciilifeform: hey mike_c
mod6: u too man
asciilifeform: welcome to new planet.
asciilifeform: mod6: much of today there was 'how large is this hole'
mod6: mhmm.
mike_c: not much up - I got my life settled a bit and came back and have been working my way through the shitstorm that hit around here.
mod6: werd. glad you're catchin a break a bit. last we talked you were mighty swamped with stuff.
mike_c: yeah, then it got worse
mike_c: but now it's better.
mod6: cool.
mod6: not much changed around here; still got coinz, still got that drama
mike_c: hehe
mod6: alf and mp came up with a thing called 'V'
mod6: speaking of which, i literally did jack fuck all this past month on trb
mod6: lol, first SoBA to have literally no activity. i gotta grind hard in April i think.
mod6: bunch of us have been learning scheme and Ada
mod6: so that's been kinda cool.
mod6: alf just sits back and laughs
mod6: i'll catch up by the time im like 394 years old.
mod6: he'll still be in kindergarden.
mike_c: oh, wow. considering a rewrite?
mod6: if its possible at all.
mod6: btc has to work better than a 767
mod6: but not sure if we can make it happen with breaking ourselves off into our own universe.
mod6: could require a true hardfor
mod6: k
mike_c: yeah, hard to reproduce bug-for-bug in another language.
mod6: bingo
mod6: mp has some neato non-ada ideas surrounding sponges
mod6: so we'll see.
mike_c: heh, sponges. I've got a lot of log reading to do..
mod6: yah, there's a lot of stuff. trilema will probably get you caught up as a readers-digest
mod6: no worries though, it'll be there.
mircea_popescu: mike_c> but now it's better. << cool!
mike_c: yes, baby is a bit bigger, and new job is settling in. life is manageable again (or will be once I've caught up on trilema + logs)
mircea_popescu: mod6> bunch of us have been learning scheme and Ada << hey, time spent retooling the shop is still work
mircea_popescu: hey, at least it's not boring!
mike_c: srsly
mircea_popescu: and as an added benefit i'm no longer the young man i used to be, doing 100+ articles/month like 2010
asciilifeform: fwiw i have pretty close to a working bignumatron in ada.
mircea_popescu: proper big ?
asciilifeform: (but then again i have 'pretty close' to working postgres db in phuctor, so there)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what means proper-big
asciilifeform: up to size of machine mem
mircea_popescu: that.
asciilifeform: then yes.
mircea_popescu: nb.
asciilifeform: ada memory alloc is an interesting item that deserves own conversation
asciilifeform: it has allocation but NOT free ! (you can 'cheat' and re-enable it, but then your proggy is considered 'cursed')
asciilifeform: students of the lang, e.g., mod6, prolly understand why
mircea_popescu: so how do you deallocate ?
mike_c: sounds like normal bitocin. allocate memory and don't free it.
asciilifeform: you RECYCLE
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: as in, re-use the blocks sanely.
mircea_popescu: tbh i like the new rested ny-steak&snark mike_c much better than the tired one!
asciilifeform: and don't ever allocate a block you have no intention of re-using in its birth size.
mike_c: ;)
asciilifeform: in essence ada demands that you make intelligent use of static blocks of ram
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so i gotta write my own malloc every time
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: only if you insist of 'writing c'
asciilifeform: *insist on
mircea_popescu: you know "me", i'm a coder. i'd do anything rather than think.
asciilifeform: where buffers are born and die promiscuosly
asciilifeform: l0l
asciilifeform: for incorrigible c-smokers, it has a 'unchecked deallocation' thing that you can re-enable, at your peril.
asciilifeform: then you can 'write c' aha.
asciilifeform: but this defeats a good chunk of the purpose of using ada to begin with.
asciilifeform: i will give example pertaining to bignum/crypto
mircea_popescu: explain this to me. how do i write ada-bitcoin with variable-sized blocks ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: by allocating the size of the largest possible block, for ALL block
mircea_popescu: ...
asciilifeform: as in fact described by mircea_popescu in the bitcoin-fs thread.
mircea_popescu: this defeats the whole purpose of VARIABLE sized blocks
mircea_popescu: you're not about to tell me the block limit is actually part of ada,
mircea_popescu: in the sense of, it being part of sanity.
asciilifeform: ahahahahaha
mircea_popescu: awww.
mircea_popescu: but "i" talked to all these moorexperts!
asciilifeform: i will point out that it is possible to build a physical machine that behaves as if it were possible to have multiple memories, and auto-defrags the space
asciilifeform: but we have no such machine.
asciilifeform: but who ~really~ needs one, can build.
mircea_popescu: actually no. who really needs one, can't build.
asciilifeform: (and he will pay the price of non- O(1) allocation.)
mircea_popescu: who really needs to build a girlfriend, also can't.
asciilifeform: well yes, fella falling from the empire state building is a bit occupied, too busy to build a chute.
asciilifeform: it is the habit of idlers like asciilifeform to sit around knitting silk for NO FUKCING good reason11111
asciilifeform brb, food
mircea_popescu: he eats like an argentine now, at 1 am.
mircea_popescu: i meant more in the sense of you'd have to be an idiot to need it, but neways.
asciilifeform back
asciilifeform: incidentally, did we ever do the 'bottomless ram' thread ?
mircea_popescu: other than ring buffer ?
asciilifeform: it is hypothetically possible, at least by napkin calculation, that one day memory device will be built , of usefully high capacity, that... wears out before you can ever fill it up
mircea_popescu: oh that. in 2014.
asciilifeform: where it doesn't actually make sense to erase.
asciilifeform: l0l
asciilifeform: and yeah i'm pretty sure we had it here.
asciilifeform: so that's another way to have 'variable blox'
asciilifeform: ...never to reuse ram.
mircea_popescu: it's of the nature of "it is possible, at least by napkin pullulation, that one day we have AI".
mircea_popescu: i'll believe when i see it.
asciilifeform: you can also approximate this horror using 'broken hearts'
asciilifeform: they existed on some variants of lispm
mircea_popescu: also ftr pullulation IS an english word. wtf is with these "spellcheckers" omfg
asciilifeform: memory locations with magican n+1th bit set, which behave as transparent pointer
mircea_popescu: what is the fucking point to have a tool that spells worse than the human.
asciilifeform: pulullakin !111
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=01-02-2015#1001619 << ☝︎
asciilifeform: ( <assbot> Logged on 20-03-2014 14:20:09; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'cum se suge pula' << can't help but associate this in my head with the finnish proverb, 'Pillu se on pulullakin' )
mircea_popescu: hehe
mircea_popescu: have you spent the past week re-reading logs in integrum and doing head-xreferencing ?
asciilifeform: past n yearz.
asciilifeform: (to finish off the 'broken hearts' - they let you defrag a memory without actually moving anything.)
asciilifeform: how to move ~the broken hearts themselves~ is an exercise for the reader...
mircea_popescu: "how to get girl - first, get her sister. how to get sister - exercise etc"
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: (the answer, afaik, is that you 'moved them' by flipping the mains current.)
mircea_popescu: did we ever say the finnish proverb is "even pigeon has a cunt" ?
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: no bird actually has a cunt, but what do the finns know.
asciilifeform: this was iirc plainly described in the original source
mircea_popescu: incidentally, do you know how to fuck the bird in hand ?
asciilifeform: and i suspect meant 'fuckable opening'
asciilifeform: american legendary 19th c. folk hero davy crockett is said to have fucked whooping cranes. but he took off the head first.
mircea_popescu: i never heard that one.
asciilifeform: it is in an old b00k of sexpathology i have somewhere.
asciilifeform: will dig out.
mod6: haha, plz link if you find it.
asciilifeform: mod6: will prolly have to scan 1st
asciilifeform: english crud tends to not be on the net already
mircea_popescu: i wonder how many fine jewish boys helped the ducks being fattened swallow their peas with the peanis.
asciilifeform: i've never farmed ducks, are they typically debeaked ?
mircea_popescu: there's this implement, keep it open.
asciilifeform: aha the goose-feeding tool
asciilifeform: the one with the crank.
mircea_popescu: the animal's overfed to cirhosis over a few weeks, in the traditional process
asciilifeform: i recall this, iirc you nail their legs to the floor also
asciilifeform: in other nyooz, the immunocompromise thing was accurate, already folks who oughta know better, on old planet, asked me if i'd host a powerranger idiot repo 'for trb'
asciilifeform: melted my brain right through the mouth, it did
asciilifeform: funkenstein_ you oughta be ashamed.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> as in, re-use the blocks sanely. << ok so we'd have to therefore keep a 'free list' - a list of objects/items that have been deleted and are "recycled" and may be used again or I suppose we could then call 'Ada.Unchecked_Deallocation' on an item in the free list to shink the list thereby reclaiming the memory.
asciilifeform: mod6: correct
asciilifeform: re: the latter, see thread from ~1h ago
mod6: i think i was just trying to follow that thread in my own sense of it.
mod6: i had to look it all up in the reference
asciilifeform: (spoiler: ada aggressively promotes sanity, in particular here the item described by mircea_popescu roughly a year ago, which is that a program must occupy EXACTLY its maximal memory footprint at all times)
asciilifeform: sorta how you budget for max-whatever for every category, so as never to have to say 'i cannot pay the electric bill'
phf: fwiw lisp no consing strategy is same, i.e preallocate things
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: i wrote a good bit of this
asciilifeform: the result, sadly, is distinctly 'un-lispy'
phf: there's inherent divide between two strategies, anyone who claims bridging it is selling you something
asciilifeform: quite !
asciilifeform: as i described in #b-a
asciilifeform: <asciilifeform> there are precisely TWO known sane approaches to programming a computer.
asciilifeform: <asciilifeform> max dynamism or max static.
asciilifeform: <asciilifeform> in-betweens are for the birdz.
mod6: ok, so ; new block is found. we serve the live block queue (size 64 blocks, oldest (height-wise) is in the front) and recycle the memory, appending it to the end of the free queue. we then serve the free-list queue, populate it with the data from the new block and append it to the live block list
mod6: ?
asciilifeform: mod6: aha, essentially a traditional allocator with several distinct types of fixed-size blocks
mod6: two wheels, this would keep the overall footprint the same throughout.
asciilifeform: sorta how 'malloc' normally works anyway
asciilifeform: under the hood.
mod6: ah
asciilifeform: except now you have to actually be conscious of it
asciilifeform: rather than, to borrow mircea_popescu's old analogy, going about like idiot prole cow woman who 'falls pregnant whenever'
mod6: heheh
asciilifeform: the c/unix malloc, that pretends to give you arbitrary blocks of N bytes on demand in O(1), is a pernicious fraud.
asciilifeform: and not because it has to be free()'d and 'no one can possibly', but because of fragging.
asciilifeform bbl.
mod6: aight, thx alf
BingoBoingo: dat hedge https://i.imgur.com/FFFKjmI.jpg
mod6: nice bush
asciilifeform: industrial l0ltr0n1cs: http://www.dianacoman.com/2016/03/28/when-the-messenger-shoots-back/#comment-249
phf: asciilifeform: https://github.com/cgwalters/git-evtag i know snore, but sort of follow up to recent git conversation
mircea_popescu: ;;google site:trilema.com "la tati ni-i greu"
gribble: Cum se suge pula - ghid pentru juma' de sex oral on Trilema - A ...: <http://trilema.com/cum-se-suge-pula-ghid-pentru-juma-de-sex-oral>
mircea_popescu: lol.
mircea_popescu: ro expression, literally "life's hard for all of us". really intraducible in its derisive superlative.
asciilifeform: Mar 29 09:46:10 <phf>asciilifeform: https://github.com/cgwalters/git-evtag i know snore, but sort of follow up to recent git conversation << extreme sn0resportz
asciilifeform: git in my mind is inextricably linked with things i want to get away from and never see again.
asciilifeform: it is in same category as, e.g., office coffee
mircea_popescu: what's wrong with office coffee ?
deedbot-: [Trilema] La tati ni-i greu, or "The pervy Romanians - etnobotanical study" - http://trilema.com/2016/la-tati-ni-i-greu-or-the-pervy-romanians-etnobotanical-study/
davout: probably the 'office' part if i had to guess
asciilifeform: well around here it comes from machine that takes plastic cartridges full of ??? and pisses out a dark and motor-oil-smelling fluid
asciilifeform: there are a dozen types of shell, but the taste is always same
asciilifeform: most american offices use these now because they NEVER need to be cleaned
davout: ah yeah, american coffee...
asciilifeform: the nozzle that pisses, is formed as part of the plastic cartridge when it ruptures
phf: asciilifeform is like a study into usg foot soldier culture, sometimes i feel like he relishes in the role
asciilifeform: phf: in prison one makes chess pieces from bread and piss, what else is there to do.
mircea_popescu: oh that crap.
asciilifeform: astonishing that i managed to get an irc terminal going here
asciilifeform: it took some gymnastics
asciilifeform: not because anyone censors the pipe, but because the pipe is so ~burpy~
mircea_popescu: "office coffee" could also be fresh burmese brew by fresh burmese tits!
asciilifeform: disconnects sockets every 10m or so
phf: my building has a coffee machine downstairs, that is loaded, daily by a mexican team, with fresh beans bought from a reasonable supplier. the coffee is passable, but perhaps sounds like mana from heaven compared to "kurig" ors
asciilifeform envious
asciilifeform: davout: this is not even what you probably think of as 'american coffee', this is a level down still
asciilifeform: i think the machine ~exists~ in order to make the gasoline-smelling 'starbux' swill taste great in comparison
mircea_popescu: phf you have to have costa rica coffee before you may speak of coffee.
mircea_popescu: it's like... i don't even know. i have it imported here.
asciilifeform: pretty much whole office treks across the town to get it
asciilifeform: instead of drinking the machine.
davout: in french we refer to american coffee as 'jus de chaussettes', aka 'sock juice'
mircea_popescu: in romanian, we call sodas "apa de la spalatul bomboanelor" ie, bonbon bathwater.
davout: that's actually pretty cute
mircea_popescu: mhm!
mircea_popescu: can almost picture a bonbon in a tiny tub, rubbing his back with a tiny brush...
trinque: asciilifeform: gotta get yourself a french press for the desk
mircea_popescu: does it have lasers in it ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can not buy any desk items lest they have lasers and no fans!
trinque: it's silent at least !!11!
phf: i briefly dated a jamaican girl in college whose grandfather had a coffee plantation, they sold most of it to roasters but roasted some for artisanal resale. i don't know if that was necessarily "best" coffee, but that's certainly not coffee i can forget
asciilifeform: actually a few folks here have such things
mircea_popescu: it's in the terms of his inheritance.
asciilifeform: i can't be arsed.
mircea_popescu: phf alrighty then!
asciilifeform: but i'm beginning to appreciate the merits of the fancy cooking machines: while people use them, they can still count as 'work'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i know the feeling. i drink coffee like i smoke, a pot a month. but i am blessed with the company of oyung ladies that are crazy for the stuff,
mircea_popescu: and so like the bum living in the city and benefiting of the subway even if it couldn't be built on HIS tax receipts,
mircea_popescu: i'm a coffee coneisseur by ricochet.
asciilifeform: l0l neato.
asciilifeform: i bet mircea_popescu still has his caffeine receptors.
mircea_popescu: i have all the everythings i started with!
asciilifeform: aha, that's what i meant
asciilifeform: vs my old burned out carcass.
mircea_popescu: i still have my foreskin attached, also. i am untouched by worldly corruptions as a young babe!
asciilifeform: they didn't detach those where i'm from
asciilifeform: ever.
mircea_popescu: i don't mean circumcision. i mean the split that usually happens in uncircumcised males once they get into their own and vigurously fuck a damsel.
mircea_popescu: at least for the lower class folk that dun wear condoms!
asciilifeform: split?
asciilifeform: do these folks fuck lawn mowers or what
asciilifeform: blenders?
mircea_popescu: well, young women. a bad habit, but very anglo.
mircea_popescu: ;;google frenulum
gribble: Frenulum of prepuce of penis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenulum_of_prepuce_of_penis>; Frenulum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenulum>; Frenulum of tongue - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frenulum_of_tongue>
mircea_popescu: the penile anatomy is that the foreskin is connected to the glans by this skin fold.
asciilifeform does not recall breaking such a part
mircea_popescu: it bleeds copiously, so you'd recall.
asciilifeform: but i suppose people are quite like chess pieces, in the sense of having plastic mold tabs
mircea_popescu: ha.
mircea_popescu: cunt.runs.on.perl!
asciilifeform: somethinglikethat.
asciilifeform: 10:49 <+deedbot-> [Trilema] La tati ni-i greu, or "The pervy Romanians - etnobotanical study" -
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2016/la-tati-ni-i-greu-or-the-pervy-romanians-etnobotanical-study/ <<l0l!
asciilifeform: the 'nauceala' discussion brings to mind the 'hasna' thread
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: in other interesting nyooz, zoolag appears to be perma-blackholed.
ben_vulpes: have you...turned your computer off and then on again?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: l0l
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: this is not a box that gets turned off.
trinque: unpossibru
phf: run on a small nuclear reactor
deedbot-: [Qntra] Iphone Circlejerk Ends With Status Quo Maintained For Now - http://qntra.net/2016/03/iphone-circlejerk-ends-with-status-quo-maintained-for-now/
phf: that is not the precedent you're looking for
BingoBoingo: What precedent?
phf: should be in quotes, a hypothetical jedi mind trick brought to you by usg
phf: i guess the attempt is to create controversy on account of everyone being weary of usg syndevs, "look! we have some non-compromised companies"
asciilifeform: l0l
asciilifeform: iirc this is what i said on day1
asciilifeform: run moar crapple.
phf: i wonder if the whole charade has anything do with growth of iphone adoption in china
asciilifeform: in cn there is no serious dispute re master keys
BingoBoingo: phf this social engineering strategy has a long history in USG kingdom. Invented by "St Louis Hegelians" who then moved to Harvard and infected USG. Favorite means of USG for getting desired outcome by letting crowd pick the narrative for how they got there.
asciilifeform: https://mastermind.atavist.com/he-always-had-a-dark-side << lulz
asciilifeform: ^ a 'newsweek-satoshi job' re truecrypt
BingoBoingo: phf: Thing was a reaction the the civil war and proposed as a solution to avoiding civil wars while still allowing everything to appear contentious
phf: BingoBoingo: i read your post
BingoBoingo: phf: It desperately needs a followup addressing the 20th century evolution of the thing and the obfustication that was heaped upon it.
phf: (http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2016/01/24/the-theoretical-foundation-of-social-engineering-practice/)
mircea_popescu: o hey guise, we're ok to do all our terrorism on iphones now ?!
asciilifeform: this was the basic objective, obvious to anyone with iq above bathwater temperature
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Nah, they got another party to unterrorize the ipnoHe
mircea_popescu: oh
asciilifeform: ^ last week's nyooz
mircea_popescu: but we can still use iphone for terrorism yes ?
BingoBoingo: mubbe
mircea_popescu: asks every preppy 15yo derp with an iphone bought by helicopter mom and some equally derpy but "terrorist" friends & schoolmates.
mircea_popescu: they choose not to run!
phf: 9th european lisp symposium, three invited speakers "Coq, Julia and `complexity of lexical closures`" ffs
mircea_popescu: who is julia ?
asciilifeform: phf: it's been dead wood for yearz
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: haskellian masturbatron
asciilifeform: i.e. a shitlang
phf: http://julialang.org
mircea_popescu: scheme-haskell eh ?
phf: more like matlab/r
asciilifeform: a shitlang.
mircea_popescu: "I have recently looked at Julia, a new programming language developed at MIT that promises to be a dynamic programming language that is suitable for scientific computing with a high-performance implementation. "
phf: for so can do SCIENCE
asciilifeform: the language-of-the-day come-into-our-proprietary-shitlang-parlour-said-spider-to-fly folks have been much the same for two decades +.
mircea_popescu: "uses a somewhat mainstream syntax rather than sexpr"
mircea_popescu: also for maffs ?
asciilifeform: for laffs.
phf: thing is 8 years ago dylan people were absolutely trolled at ILC, now apparently it's ok to have julia talk as invited talk. gise gise it's like lisp but with modern mainstream everything
mircea_popescu: o hey, it has php variables.
asciilifeform: phf: naggum died
asciilifeform: and so this.
phf: for your sins
asciilifeform: l0l
mircea_popescu: "in julia, all mathematical operations are generic functions"
mircea_popescu: AHAHAHAHAHA
mircea_popescu: o god. why do people not go to primary school ?
phf: i'm only hoping they mean they have proper numeric tower, rather then straight up "this plus can be anything"
mircea_popescu: wait. i read it to mean that r-s theta is pre-built.
mircea_popescu: and optimized
mircea_popescu: FOR ALL CASES.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: crapping out a shitlang and conning naive schmucks into writing programs in it is a time-hounoured way to cheaply score pseudo-relevance. sorta like a comp sci version of altcoinism.
mircea_popescu: it IS after all both mathematical and an operation.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nah this particular thing is likely the harmless and ordinary 'you can redefine the + sign to polymorph on type' as in cpp, commonlisp, ada, etc
asciilifeform: so you can + , e.g., matrices, or bignums, or quaternions, or whatnot.
mircea_popescu: so he means "the two basic arithmetic operands are polymorphic by type" rather than "all mathematical operations are generic functions".
phf: common lisp doesn't let you redefine +, it does have somewhat sane numeric tower
asciilifeform: phf: reader macro !
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what exactly is the meaning of "sum these three vectors" even ?
mircea_popescu: "are they on a plane ?" "fu!"
phf: asciilifeform: well, you don't have to go to that extreme, you can just import a symbol from own package and shadow cl:+ but that's not to be confused with builtin mechanism of "this function dispatches on many types"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: vector addition commutes
mircea_popescu: in some spaces!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: generally folks program in euclidean space.
ben_vulpes: "for quaternionlet!!!!"
mircea_popescu: well yes generally folk have all sorts of baked in assumptions about all sorts of things,
mircea_popescu: but this isn't addition's fault is it!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: eulora lives where, in lobachevsky's space ?
mircea_popescu: worse.
asciilifeform: or in baked-assumption space
mircea_popescu: did you see the horror of quality output ?
asciilifeform: no, because i never played..?
asciilifeform: hence my q
mircea_popescu: was in the log, a second.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.minigame.bz/2016-03-27.log.html#t16:55:13
mircea_popescu: so the problem there is : me and her, crafters of different skills, are trying to figure out how the game computes the output quality of a crafting process.
mircea_popescu: it's directly evident the quality of recipe used ; and the quality of the bundle processed are factors.
mircea_popescu: the numeric properties we have found, however, are out of sight.
asciilifeform: the linked item may as well be in chinese
asciilifeform: i have nfi what i am looking at.
mircea_popescu: for instance : going from q50 to q200 blueprints doubles my output quality, from 132 to 264.
mircea_popescu: it also doubles her, from 120 to 240.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well... it's an industrial problem, here are your inputs, predict your outputs sorta thing.
asciilifeform: didntcha write the thing?
mircea_popescu: so ?
mircea_popescu: i suffer from various mental afflictions.
phf: in earlier years i wrote a scripting language where processes will go mad after running too long, i.e. each operation had a correctness probability that will be logarithmically adjust based on thread's age. a boolean expression that returns true at 1, will return false 30% of time at .7, etc. i vaguely suspect something like that was used to write eulora server
mircea_popescu: phf don't forget crystal space.
asciilifeform: i mean, what, mircea_popescu wrote the equation, then drank bottle of vodka, and forgot, and now is re-deriving it, playing against past self ??
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform compartimentalization is the best and most fun part of schizophrenia.
asciilifeform: hey i played chess against self as a boy.
asciilifeform: chronically
asciilifeform: and kinda still doing this, right here.
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: see thread from 2wks ago.
mircea_popescu: it's a wonder you don't play eulora, for these reasons.
asciilifeform: i haven't a 3d card. or a 4:3 display. or time.
asciilifeform: but if had these, would play..
mircea_popescu: a right the 3d.
asciilifeform: mainly - time
asciilifeform: i could dig up a 4:3 panel and a gpu.
mircea_popescu: it doesn't take much time to play. bots.
asciilifeform: it takes time in the sense that i can't do it on the stake
mircea_popescu: why not ?
mircea_popescu: i have been playing it continuously for like 5-6 months now. just leave the bot what to do.
mircea_popescu: DianaComan wrote a very dependable little fellow.
asciilifeform pictures wheeling desktop into office - 'hey boss, this is so that i can...'
asciilifeform: if you 'leave the bot..', aintcha playing 'core wars' ?
mircea_popescu: why not leave it at home ?
asciilifeform: then how are you 'playing' ?
DianaComan: ftr asciilifeform I routinely leave it on while I sleep
asciilifeform: i dun get it
mircea_popescu: like everything else you do!
asciilifeform: so it's a bot-vs-bot thing.
asciilifeform: core warz!
DianaComan: there is some very satisfying quality of "it works for me while I SLEEP" component to it too
mircea_popescu: everything is a "bot vs bot" thing in that sense.
mircea_popescu: internet, eh ?
DianaComan: no, not really because the bot by itself is basically a dumb robot
DianaComan: and ftr there is Birdman who managed to blow some 10mn using the bot in one night or so
mircea_popescu: DianaComan actually i suppose one could try and make ai for foxybot
mircea_popescu: prolly the auction/trade part the fastest approach for that.
DianaComan: ah certainly, I even had that as first idea, ha
mircea_popescu: it'd be pretty epic you know ? actually a very good ground for ai development, cuz so formalized and well scored.
DianaComan: back when I was more hopeful that I actually have the time for at least half the ideas I had
mircea_popescu: "make money".
DianaComan: well, there is a lot to be said about intelligent mining/exploring too for sure
mircea_popescu: for instance asciilifeform : last night i loaded up the 500 abandoned eggs DianaComan sold me, plus some shiny rock shards i had from before, also abandoned birds' nests and disgusting goop, put 500 recipes for flinty toothpaste in my mind, said /bot craft 500 and went to bed. this morning i had like 300 of the things.
DianaComan: asciilifeform, the playing part is a. figuring out what is what and b. crafting your strategy and seeing how that compares (as results ie money) to those of the other players
DianaComan: the bot simply automates the repetitive tasks
asciilifeform: i think i used to play this
asciilifeform: but it was with fake precious metals on $redactedidiottradingsite
asciilifeform: it was very frustrating.
mircea_popescu: of course jurov was working at a lisp-based text version of teh client.
DianaComan: what was frustrating about it?
asciilifeform: i also played it on demo-mpex for a while
asciilifeform: which was great
mircea_popescu: ah, not very related.
mircea_popescu: you gotta mine your own shit, here.
asciilifeform: but then my demo ran out and i got booted, and haven't played since)
mircea_popescu: <DianaComan> and seeing how that compares (as results ie money) to those of the other players << this'd work if we even had any sort of a valuating function!
DianaComan: well, so far it's very crude: are you in the positive or in the negative? then again, for comparing god help us given all the sikriz
DianaComan: aaaand made my wonderful, shiny, new samovar, ha
mircea_popescu: wd!
mircea_popescu: and how do i calculate if im in positive or negative ?
DianaComan: you can calc all your networth, no?
mircea_popescu: how ?
DianaComan: uhm? base value?
DianaComan: a pain, but still
mircea_popescu: ha!
mircea_popescu: so you trade me your storage for bv ?
DianaComan: no, but I use my bv as a baseline
mircea_popescu: but what calculation is this then ?!
DianaComan: I can compare that way
mircea_popescu: isn't it meaningless ?
DianaComan: meaningless for what?
DianaComan: do you mean that bv is now meaningless?
mircea_popescu: well suppose you have 1mn and 1 have 1mn. then tomorrow, you have 100 dead molluscs q 150 and i have 100 bng recipes, q 150.
mircea_popescu: who is + and who is - ?
DianaComan: I don't get what you are on really; I said: to see if I am positive or negative, not even comparing to you, just very crude: today my eulora account is worth 1btc, tomorrow it is worth 1.5btc or 0.5btc
DianaComan: very very crude
mircea_popescu: as a "bottom bound" sorta thing, sure.
DianaComan: that is all we have!
mircea_popescu: i blame the devs!
DianaComan: bottoms abound or something
DianaComan: the devils, yeah :))
hanbot: lol
phf: i guess stephenson is on seveneves kick right now, which was pretty torturous reading, but probably goes really well with swj crowd
phf: https://sidechannels.cr.yp.to/qkd/holographic-20160326.pdf has been making rounds
phf: "Is the security of quantum cryptography guaranteed by the laws of physics?" i have no expertise to make a comment on it though
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 404860 | Current Difficulty: 1.6549683511822635E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 405215 | Next Difficulty In: 355 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 2 days, 2 hours, 24 minutes, and 51 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
asciilifeform: phf: seveneves was a misery ☟︎
phf: asciilifeform: guy had that sword simulation fiasco, perhaps he decided that perky nih bureaucrat types (with rigged tomboy/ethnic/... upbringing) are better future builders. could be worse, could've gone joss whedon altogether
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as "quantum" cryptography.
mircea_popescu: there's also no such thing as mathematical proof "by the law of physics".
mircea_popescu: if the dumbass thing weren't a pdf, i might have made a trilema blast piece. which perhaps explains why it is pdf.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you didn't miss much
mircea_popescu: surprise surprise!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'quantum crypto' is a marketing term for that thing where you serve up random bits for otp using 'entangled photons'
mircea_popescu: uh
mircea_popescu: so non-random bits ?
asciilifeform: random bits.
asciilifeform: but same on two ends.
mircea_popescu: is there some theorem of the unicity of entanglement that i missed ?
mircea_popescu: granted, i've not gone to school at the premier lightbulb lighting institution in the world.
asciilifeform: http://www.nature.com/articles/srep20962 << summary.
mircea_popescu: yes yes. lemme summarize the question. IF you can show that two particles are entangled, HOW do you show that you have ALL the entangled particles in your control, for an entangla-tuple.
asciilifeform: you don't, it's a sc4m
mircea_popescu: "experimental demonstration", for mercy.
phf: http://paste.lisp.org/display/311819/raw <- for pdfless
mircea_popescu: "entanglement is a key resource in the research field of quantum information"
mircea_popescu: why do they keep doing this.
pete_dushenski: is cheep cheep ?
mircea_popescu: it's like fucking politicians "thinking". really, does "entanglement" have the STATUS of so and so ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: human shannonizers
mircea_popescu: "poor black mothers are a key resource in the public money spending field of social services"
mircea_popescu: EXACTLY the same shit.
mircea_popescu: and exactly continuing "shaka-maka is a major deity of great power"
phf: used to be you get a little tick mark in red from your teacher for that sort of writing
asciilifeform: phf: and later in life, from grant committee!1111
mircea_popescu: yeah. over your skull.
phf: asciilifeform: it's not a good kind of tick
mircea_popescu: Abstract. It is often claimed that the security of theoretical quantum key distribution (QKD) is guaranteed by the laws of physics. However, this claim is content-free if the underlying definition of theoretical QKD is not actually compatible with the laws of physics. This paper observes that (1) the laws of physics pose serious obstacles to the security of QKD and (2) these laws are ignored in a
mircea_popescu: ll QKD "security proofs".
mircea_popescu: actually, the piece is by bernstein, and the abstract entirely vindicates me.
phf: asciilifeform: somehow grant committee on the other hand eat dat shit up
phf: hence post, paper is essentially "what you smoking" but written in academiceese
mircea_popescu: phf yes, i am very happy with it. guy even includes a formal scheme of what the proof should look like, for the benefit of the titrated tykes.
mircea_popescu: that is EXACTLY what it should motherfucking look like. assume l, assume p, therefore s.
mircea_popescu: phf i'm very happy with the guy's statement, both in the fundamental rejection and in the discursive analysis of the claims aspects. more words may be added to beenfit peculiar idiots, but as it stands it contains the first 4k or so words one'd say on the topic.
mircea_popescu: check it out alf, bernstein saved us some work!
asciilifeform: as often happens.
mircea_popescu: he works for the republic even as he doesn't know it. and the eu printing press is paying for it. wonder of wonders.
asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu knew what pays for asciilifeform to work for republic, he'd toss his cookies
mircea_popescu: lol are you publishing inept quyantum blabla pieces under a chinese pseudonym ?
asciilifeform: not quite.
mircea_popescu: at any rate : it is immensely more difficult to actually make a physical proof than the scheme detailed by bernstein immediately makes apparent.
mircea_popescu: to best illustrate this, perhaps : there is nothing in newtonian mechanics that ACTUALLY precludes quantum mechanics.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, an array of learned gents THOUGHT SO.
mircea_popescu: making negative statements on the basis of positively established physical laws is the hardest task available.
mircea_popescu: pretty much the only such [class of] statement comes from the laws of thermodynamics (and their mirrors in other fields), which are some of the very few fortunate cases where an actual bound is offered (see, by the way, feynman's excellent introduction in all this, with the reversible and irreversible machines etc), and so negative statements can be had.
mircea_popescu: even leaving aside that people are still enthusiastically building perpetuum-organ-pumpmobile to this very day ; what practical use are they ?
mircea_popescu: by which i mean that a) all use is already in use - sure, an ant can't eat you, because of it - but you kinda already both know and use this and b) all uses not already in use are monstrously cataclysmic and temporally unapproachable. so the kelvin death, really ? oooo, neat, lemme make that into a doorlock!
asciilifeform: waiwut
mircea_popescu: where ?
asciilifeform: last para
mircea_popescu: ima need more than that!
asciilifeform: 'why an ant can't eat you... already in use' and 'kelvin death ... door lock'
mircea_popescu: mk lemme restate.
mircea_popescu: the already very limited class of negative statements one can derive from physical laws is very fundamental, which in praxis severely limits your chances to do something clever.
asciilifeform: there is a broader class of 'soft' negatives, e.g., 'you can X but it will take the mass of whole galaxy times 10^100' or whatnot.
mircea_popescu: that there is.
mircea_popescu: historically though, those tend to collapse inconveniently.
mircea_popescu: they're all basically "you can cross the ocean - it will take six months"
asciilifeform: sorta how we have in algorithmics, 'you can X but exponential'
mircea_popescu: and as far as the perversion of nature goes - quantum mechanics actually by its very own rules provides guarantees that it would not be observable by newtonian means. with the very isolated exception of "light through multiple mosquito nets", and fine problems in the perceived orbits of inner planets, there's really nothing to even measure about qm misbehaviour, for purely qm reasons!
asciilifeform: lulzily, in other nooze, classic #b-a is undergoing a very corpselike decomposition, fauna nobody even knew existed are devouring the carcass
pete_dushenski: the 'mp as b/t-cell' theory is holding water is it
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: i did warn.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: and generally he never even needed to ~do~ anything, in real time, to keep'em out
PeterL: meh, a couple people poked their heads in, no more than any other time in #b-a, I don't see any corpse-munching yet
pete_dushenski: maybe tmsr just needed a stepping stone between itself and reddit
asciilifeform: it was rather like the effect of the smell of cat, on vermin
asciilifeform: PeterL: TaT + a buncha very peculiar visitors
phf: danielpbarron expressed some concern that the following part of yesterdays #b-a log was an accusation made by me against mircea_popescu. i don't see it, but perhaps i'm missing something? http://paste.lisp.org/display/311820/raw
trinque: strikes me as more of an insult to alf's judgment really...
asciilifeform: l0lwut
trinque: I don't see the crazy myself, but perhaps "we're all mad here!"
asciilifeform: 'madness?! this is sparta!'
mircea_popescu: im too lazy to click.
DianaComan: phf: i'm just saying there was plenty of opportunities to speak up against crazy in the past, and i saw plenty of crazy and i just thought everyone else took it in strides, as part of the game. apparently not! <- at a stretch crazy might be seen as an insult I suppose
DianaComan: anyway, it made me curious: what's the crazy that was plenty and seen but not really digested as it turned out?
mircea_popescu: what's "crazy" ? and plox don't tell me "that which diverges from the consensus of average derps", if possible.
asciilifeform: ^
DianaComan: that's phf's line from the fragment
phf: well, danielpbarron is a religious fundamentalist. things that he says have to be recoded from his frame to my frame. if there's particularly prolonged periods of inability to map frames on my part, i can go "well this is crazy" and dismiss it as not bring relevant to me or i can spend significantly more effort to recode
phf: *not being
mircea_popescu: so "whatever i don't understand is crazy" ?
phf: hmm
mircea_popescu: makes sense - my "crazyness" is the direct cause of about 99.x% of the times slavegirls get their hide recolored.
asciilifeform: generally i in particular don't 'this is crazy' unless 'this' pattern-matches known types of insanity in my buffer
mircea_popescu: which i suppose is exactly the common understanding on the topic also!
phf: well, no
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's "stupid" tho, neh ?
asciilifeform: nah
asciilifeform: 'stupid' is separate classifier
mircea_popescu: (yes, when i say X is stupid what i mean is, exactly the matching above, except not regexp)
phf: i don't understand it and it matches my construct of other person's framing
mircea_popescu: (regexp matching usually gets called ridiculous)
mircea_popescu: phf ie, whenever they had an idea ?
mircea_popescu: and while at it, what's "a religious fundamentalist" ?
phf: if danielpbarron started discussing finer points of the bible, like, say, specific choices of food for lent, the entire thread is "crazy"
mircea_popescu: ie uninteresting ?
trinque: "made me unconfortable because $unspecified"
mircea_popescu: what if i started discussing finer points of random minutia, which is 2/3 of what i do anyway ?
danielpbarron: what is lent? some catholic thin?
phf: there's no judgement involved in calling something crazy!
mircea_popescu: none was implied, but the question still stands.
asciilifeform: ~= timecube.
phf: danielpbarron: we have it in orthodox christianity. a period when you have to eat specific, reduced diet
trinque: catholics say they gave up starbucks or something during
danielpbarron: the Bible explicitely says to not forbid foods
phf: i might find a discussion of lent dietary choices both interesting and not at all uncomfortable, but never the less they are "crazy" because the foundation is understood but not shared
asciilifeform: ^
mircea_popescu: are women definitionally crazy ?
phf: by that definition yes!
mircea_popescu: so then why would anyone protest crazy.
DianaComan: hello, I'm Definitionally Crazy! :D
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: not a bad nick, actually.
DianaComan: not at all, no, I'll troll some with it irl
phf: but so are most people, have specific set of priors that are non-sharable
mircea_popescu: the crazy benefits of teh forum.
mircea_popescu: phf that'd be the definition of the idiot.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: eh only when they're thinking with their coprocessor
mircea_popescu: if any of your priors are private, you're an idiot.
asciilifeform often asks pet, 'what does your female coprocessor say to ..X..'
phf: mircea_popescu: non transferable perhaps
mircea_popescu: what's that ?
mircea_popescu: i meant private quite in the public/private dichotomy contempated re the defintion of republic/forum.
mircea_popescu: roughly equivalent to "private method" sense in coding.
phf: right, when i say non-sharable, i don't mean, can't be verbalized
phf: but rather, are non-trivial to transfer
asciilifeform: soooo how is mircea_popescu's seeekrit minercollusion tip not 'private prior' ? what am i missing.
mircea_popescu: me either. public is anything that can be stated in such a way so that another can recognize his own in the statement ; private is what can not.
asciilifeform: so it is about 'can be stated' vs 'acid trip' ?
mircea_popescu: quite.
asciilifeform: rather than revealed / secret ?
phf: well, danielpbarron believes in god, i (for sake of conversation) don't. that's a non-transferable prior, though of course both can be transferred through various involved mechanisms. indoctrination, dialogues, sudden insight
asciilifeform: ..lsd
trinque: nah, didn't see any gods in there myself.
danielpbarron: the grace of God
mircea_popescu: how is it non-transferrable on that grounds ?
phf: mircea_popescu: i clarified it a bit with "non-trivial to transfer"
mircea_popescu: i took a piss on a woman splayed in the backalleys of cairo. you did not. this is now not-transferrable ?!
mircea_popescu: da fuck, you're not as slow as to not understand pissing, woman, backstreet or cairo./
phf: that's a prior that can be easier transferred, but only to an extent. i've not had that specific experience, perhaps there's some insight there that i'm missing beyond the obvious
mircea_popescu: as opposed to every time ever ?
phf: but in this case priors are pissing, woman and backstreet of cairo
mircea_popescu: "<mircea_popescu> at any rate : it is immensely more difficult to actually make a physical proof than the scheme detailed by bernstein immediately makes apparent."
mircea_popescu: and another example recently in the logs too, actually one each day.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform often asks pet, 'what does your female coprocessor say to ..X..' << not a bad line, this.
asciilifeform: 'I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate.' (tm) (r)
phf: mircea_popescu: i didn't understand that last question
mircea_popescu: phf "to an extent" is always the case.
mircea_popescu: even mathematics is not obvious in ALL its implications.
phf: ahah
asciilifeform: 'obvious' is a term of art in mathematics.
asciilifeform: unofficially.
mircea_popescu: did he mean it like that ?
mircea_popescu: but anyway, illustrations abound. from "the ratio of circumference to diameter" plouffe doesn't actually follow.
phf: well, perhaps then transferability has some range values attached to it, "how much effort do i need to go through in order to grok"
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, there it is.
mircea_popescu: phf i hope you're not about to put magic numbers in the fucking code!
asciilifeform: l0l!
phf: mircea_popescu: laziness coefficient L
asciilifeform: 'obvious' obviously is similar to 'lightweight' (for whom? elephant? ant?)
mircea_popescu: mno. obvious does have a rigurous definition.
mircea_popescu: "accessible through purely deductive means = obvious ; requiring some inductive reasoning = unobvious"
mircea_popescu: this definition was obtained through negotiation in class ; teacher had speech mania of saying "obvious", we protested, eventually the poor guy couldn't be needled into the ground with it so this solution was agreed upon and upheld by all parties.
phf: hmm
asciilifeform: ergo mircea_popescu's privkey is obvious !1111
phf: hmm
asciilifeform: hey, accessible via deductive means!1111111
phf: well, with that framing my definition of crazy is reduced to "what's not in groupthink"
phf: because it comes out to something like, if the outcome of inductive reasoning differs from my (??) existing conclusions, than the outcome is crazy
asciilifeform: the thing about 'crazy' is that, like bacterial infection, in practice it comes in a handful of varieties.
asciilifeform: so i rarely find myself arithmetizing 'is this fella TOO FAR in the phase space of priors' or the like.
asciilifeform: it is rarely necessary.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how is it accessible deductively ?
mircea_popescu: phf quite exactly. which is why i don't use the term nor think much of reasonings employing it as a rule.
mircea_popescu: but in any case - "that's one crazy babe" is definitely complimentary.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: p and q are right there in that n
asciilifeform: so... deducible
asciilifeform: no induction required.
mircea_popescu: this does not mean that it is deductively accessible.
asciilifeform: why not ?
mircea_popescu: it is INDUCTIVELY accessible, if you have the time to induce all the needed factors. which we knew.
asciilifeform: just need a few thousand years of deductatron
mircea_popescu: well, why not. show the syllogism.
mircea_popescu: that's inductron my dear alf.
asciilifeform: on what planet?!
asciilifeform: what is being inducted in trial division /
asciilifeform: ?
mircea_popescu: the 2nd lemma ?
mircea_popescu: 1 : "p and q are in this n" ; 2 : "if q is this" then therefore 3. "p is n/this"
mircea_popescu: that's a deduction. you keep changing 2, that's your inductive job.
asciilifeform tightens gas mask
mircea_popescu: you're thinking mathematical induction, perhaps, which has nothing to see with the logical concept of induction.
asciilifeform: aha!
mircea_popescu: an ancient, and rather netwonian explanation of the difference is that deduction is all from god ; and induction from sensata.
phf: i assume you're talking not about a mechanism, but rather thinking process, in which case mp's private key is "known".
asciilifeform: aha, in the sense where one can write a proggy, which is guaranteed to terminate in finite number of cycles, and will disgorge it.
mircea_popescu: that proggy is still an exericse in inductive reasoning.
shinohai: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 415.16, vol: 5917.61726372 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 414.015, vol: 6908.18434 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 415.83, vol: 23507.15126121 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 422.0, vol: 2.39 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 415.329677, vol: 40388.02040000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 416.0, vol: 1230.45436811 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 418.5909, vol: 27.43503207 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
BingoBoingo: ;;more shinohai
gribble: 415.363085921