BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: probably something should be up by morning
deedbot: davout voiced for 30 minutes.
a111: Logged on 2016-04-13 04:38 mats: $12 a blowjob is an odd number
mircea_popescu: punkman> who drinks absinthe anyway << preppy, "worldly" 16yos ?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Sorry, that didn't take as long as I thought it would.
shinohai: mod6: as long as you got yours! :D
phf: absinthe nights never end good
shinohai: Last absinnthe night I had ended with me in a room with 3 girls. I'll say it went dandy.
mircea_popescu: and in other news, btcbase.org larger referrer for trilema than log.bitcoin-assets by now.
shinohai: Thos #b-a logs are so large every day I can't read them all now.
mod6: i haven't missed a single day
mod6: i feel like a book of them would be good to re-read though
mike_c: ;;later tell trinque dig www.btcalpha.com
mod6: i think the logs contain the most relevant and interesting conversations of our times.
shinohai: Sure, I still read the older stuff
shinohai: still a plethora of info there
mod6: lot of good stuff on trilema that takes a deeper dive too. all the way back to '11 and beyond
mod6: anyone wanna toss me a tarball of the logs?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> there is a stupendous amount of work to be done, but unfortunately i personally do not have the free arms and legs to do it, currently << i'd be happy if i saw the damned phuctor already.
mod6: what was the deal there? something with the database setup?
mircea_popescu: i have nfi, something obscure that's been taking him 6 fucking months. it's beyond scandalous.
mod6: in other news, thebitcoin.foundataion (Not including therealbitcoin.org) has had 149k uniq requests, and 395k non-uniq requests.
mircea_popescu: comparing the workrate differential, i'm starting to think the sane thing to do is spin it off to someone who actually wants to do it and move on.
mod6: phf: thx, will investigate.
mike_c: ;;later tell trinque and yes, i <3 postgres
mircea_popescu: mike_c this seem like a sane interface to you, what he's proposing ?
mircea_popescu: im starting to think actually shared sql may be a very sane and deeply correct way t ogo about things.
mircea_popescu: db can even be maintained in a shared, hashed, headless, distributed manner a la torrents
mike_c: readonly access from someone trusted enough not to grab locks on everything? I guess
mike_c: personally if doing something like that I'd setup a read slave
mircea_popescu: sorta like bbs-with-sql, if you will, from another perspective
mike_c: and still expect it to get hosed
mod6: mike_c: hey! qq: those zocchi dice are the real deal 'eh?
mike_c: hehe, that threw me for a loop
mike_c: linking to 2 year old comments
mike_c: the point isn't the d100, the point is he makes fair dice
mike_c: better for RNG with dicelist
mod6: yei don't care about the d100
mod6: im more interested in like a d16
mircea_popescu: if bias is the concern, you just degauss them. if not bias is the concern, wtf can he do to improve ?
mike_c: manufacturing process. it's pretty deterministic, roll random dice x times, roll his dice x times, his are better
mircea_popescu: mike_c the idea is you know what i mean by degaussing ?
mike_c: mod6: I am not an expert and haven't tested anything. simply word-on-the-street level info
mod6: they look p-damn good.
mike_c: degaussing no, I took it as the nuemann thing for unreliable number smoothing
mod6: i'll report back on 'em.
mod6: yeah, i can't seem to determine if they should be whitened if good rolling techniques are used. meaning, high friction surface, bounce off wall, shake in round & covered cup, etc.
mod6: huh, thanks for the link. will read.
mike_c: but does that work with 1-6 instead of binary? I mean, you could build up the numbers binarily, but that seems like an even bigger pain than buying fancy dice
mod6: i've been doing some reading about this lately on what I can find.
mircea_popescu: mike_c yes, it';s necessarily generalizable ; i linked a generalisation for convenience.
mike_c: sheesh, that still exists
mod6: not even sure if this shit is at all accurate or whatnot ^
mod6: so take with grain of salt
mod6: shinohai: ah, i've breezed through it rather quick, yes.
mod6: mp's link looks pretty good.
mod6: although, i wanna do stuff all by hand, if that makes sense.
shinohai: Next we will have you mining with an abacus :D
mod6: i did a recursive wget on this files.bitcoin-assets.com and alf has his own dir. lol
mod6: 1.1Gfiles.bitcoin-assets.com/ << but there's even a movie in here, wot tarballs, bitstamp incident report,e tc.
mod6: there's a bunch of stuff, even a gpg bin?
mod6: assets-log.sql.tar.gz << and this
mod6: SymbolicsTalk28June2012.m4v
mod6: you may wanna run the same thing, probably faster than me rolling it up and passing to you.
a111: Logged on 2016-04-13 17:09 mircea_popescu: but back to more prosaic concerns, hey mod6 ben_vulpes what's gonna be in this month's foundation report ?
mod6: and writing a lexigraphical parser in scheme, poorly.
mircea_popescu: prolly should have a sit down and get goals together tomorrow or somesuch ?
mod6: after the 15th, i need to contex switch, saddle up, lock and load on the makefile thing and see if we can finally get this stuff wrapped up.
mod6: yeah, i've been a bit mia because of all this shit-shoveling i've had to do lately.
mircea_popescu: is tomorro workable ? i'm mostly around all teh time so no biggy for me. or better later in week ? fri ? sun ?
mod6: during the day has been horrid for me for the last ~3 weeks. but, will try to stop in tomorrow night and discuss a bit.
mod6: i agree, a bit of a plan would be good. hold me to something i think.
mod6: eh, what time you got there right now? 22:05?
mod6: ah, ok. so figure between 21:00 and 23:30 art
mod6: which would be 19:00-21:30 cdt
mod6: might be a bit early for ben_vulpes, but he'll probably catch us on the tail end.
mod6: ok it's 19:10 / 7:10 pm there now ben_vulpes?
ben_vulpes: same same ish tomorrow? might be hard.
mod6: so we're talking between 17:00 and 19:30 PDT
mod6: otherwise, i'm good if we wanna discuss someshit now for like 30 mins.
ben_vulpes: i'm beating the streets of seattle for more work all weekend, but i'll try.
mod6: basically, im just gonna end up creating a sandbox - inflate v054 from V, and throw in trinque's makefiles and start doing what needs doing.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: in a sense. there's a $shitlang conference up there this weekend, and the meatwot has graciously coughed up some introductions.
ben_vulpes: it's an entirely adequate lisp-alike on the jvm for webshit
mod6: who needs to handle errors anyway
ben_vulpes: tentacles to wrap around the webstack today.
ben_vulpes: but no, no error checking, compile-time inspection of funcall arity correctness, type management of any sort
ben_vulpes: it is a miserably lazily implemented language.
ben_vulpes: "well because how would map know how many arguments it takes?"
ben_vulpes: aliebgruakisjbdfkahwebfqwejhfba,jhsdfba
mod6: im gonna have to be like Hiro, quit this shitshoveling and start devivering pizza for CosaNostra
ben_vulpes: i have yet to find anything /less/ painful for webwork.
mod6: once, i quit doing computer shit
mod6: for about 8 months, and spent time working nights in a tucson walmart in the ghetto
mod6: for about ... 60 days
mod6: then it was just depressing
mod6: same lady, week after week buying the same full cart of vagicreme. same guys night after night wrestling over a spot in line at 01:59 am to see who would get sold the last 40
mod6: here's a matter of fact: no one pays with actual cash. ebt 4 everyone.
mod6: there's your tax dollars hard at work
mod6: i can't imagine it is at all.
ben_vulpes: i would vastly rather shovel this shit in my own office with my hand-selected brothers and sisters in arms than travel sixty minutes each direction to work on the once-every-two-years cool multiphysics projects $semicorp has on offer or 1.25 hours for the opportunity to labor in a machine shop with men who think boats are a good investment
ben_vulpes: nevermind what the 'correct by construction' flight controller will be used for.
ben_vulpes: other than that, hilariously inept at anything other than procuring usg dole or scaring innocent civilians with 'sekyoority' analysis
mod6: im not sure which is more depressing actually, shitshoveling in a jerva shitstack all day, or walmart. make me want to pitch a tent in Mr. P.'s garden instead and work on math machine, even if futile. would be more rewarding than the shit i do on an avg. work day
ben_vulpes: i still labor under the delusion that i'll crap out something someone like myself will find useful that will pay for me to relax a bit.
ben_vulpes: try to eke out a few dollars here and there.
ben_vulpes: various knobs to turn based on worker proclivities, that's all.
ben_vulpes: 4 10's, kegs in the corner, 20-hr weeks, philosophy instead of working, dollars...
ben_vulpes: last i heard you were estimating algorthmic complexity of impossible cpp hairballs
ben_vulpes: not on its own, but as a necessary requisite.
ben_vulpes: "yes, that falls in the set of things you can purchase here."
mod6: so in other news... yeah, tomorrow will work for me. i know trinque has been doing good work on deedbot etc lately, so I'll try hard not to bug him on the shit i gotta do.
ben_vulpes: or, say, custom forms for donation-accepting nonprofits who need to collect additional data on the state's say-so.
mod6: the main thing is; i've gotta get the makefiles in proper order, and basically, iirc, they already are real close.. but the thing I gotta work out is making a vpatch to add them to the source tree.
mod6: because, my thought here is, Mr. P. inflates bitcoin via V, and then `cd bitcoin ; make`
mod6: that's it. "make me my fathers pistol"
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: every payment processor has custom formage.
ben_vulpes: you think /i/ need help shitting out some tags?
ben_vulpes: it's the guiding them through the conversations with their auditor, department of revenue...
mod6: huh. so there's no way to make an interface to just bolt on these abortions 'eh?
ben_vulpes: mod6: every payment processor has their own interface. but as mentioned above, the tech is almost entirely ancillary to figuring out what needs doing and piping the data round.
mod6: hm. but custom work pays ok then right?
mod6: "west cost choppers"
mod6: beats working at walmart
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: beats me! just answering the question.
mod6: except for the $12 bj's. that's a decent perk
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: yes, human interaction. i'm a derpy american business-ish hustler who also does software as it pertains to the /businesses/.
ben_vulpes: documentation generation for a 747 retrofitter at one point
ben_vulpes: system works so well they never needed a hand afterwards
ben_vulpes: software qua software is a mystery to me, asciilifeform.
mod6: mircea_popescu: anyway, re: retooling to ada; I think my overall thought was, get v054 complete, in its classic form. Then move along to ada perhaps. But then there's still the question surrounding your suggested changes. Should be done in cpp ala classic? Or full re-write including your changes?
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i don't expect to ever relax. but currently exploring the idea of less-loathesome wurk << Seriously try Home Depot
mod6: Say that the reward half is in july... seems hard to figure we could have anything meaningful written in ada by then at all.
gribble: Error: "rewardhalf" is not a valid command.
gribble: Error: "bc,halfreward" is not a valid command.
gribble: Error: "bc,rewardhalf" is not a valid command.
gribble: Estimated time of bitcoin block reward halving: Tue Jul 12 01:22:13 2016 UTC | Time remaining: 12 weeks, 4 days, 22 hours, 40 minutes, and 0 seconds.
BingoBoingo: Just suggesting an employer who can give alfdog fiat and who is hiring this time of year.
mod6: July 12th, mother of god
BingoBoingo: You can even move to other corners of Mordor!
ben_vulpes: there's also the local amazon subsidiary
BingoBoingo: Prolly more popescutronic girls there than rupture farms
BingoBoingo: If you stay at home depot long enough you can get your lift truck license
mod6 imagines alf in the control box
ben_vulpes: i really admire this nest of constraints you've put up, asciilifeform
ben_vulpes: it is precisely the opposite of adaptive
mod6: i feel like alf could live like ted kaczynski in the woods just fine.
mod6: only needs an axe, flint, steel and a matchbook calculator
BingoBoingo: Ohterwise alf has said mod6 that he would be pashtun dog.
mircea_popescu: the real work crane hosts 3 and they sit on the same chair.
mircea_popescu: incidentaly, what do those people do when they need to pee ?
mod6: but, alf seems to know something about rabbit stew; with a decent shotgun, small game is easy.
mod6: a man learns when he's hungry
mircea_popescu: you ever took a live animal and turned it into steaks ?
BingoBoingo: alf draws workman's comp from tower crane induced UTI
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo btw, know what is difference between gynecologist and bee-dog ?
mod6: me? i've done a deer a few times
mod6: it helps when its cold out, this is for sure.
mircea_popescu: spent hour and half dragging it around trying to find place with no anthills within five feet
mircea_popescu: fucking nigthmare the damned shits, like they were everywhere
mircea_popescu: and you know, boar weighs about the same as a large number of sacks of potatoes
mod6: i do clean my own phesants, about 50 per year. but thats easy, and a lot different than a large animal.
mircea_popescu: well a pheasant you're done with in what, 15 minutes solo
mod6: oh yeah, they have wild boar in tucson. they'll eat anything.
mod6: oh yeah, like 5 minutes.
mircea_popescu: but this thing you really need 2-3 people and ideally you know, an hour or so undisturbed
mod6: i feel like i wanna learn how to butcher cattle.
mod6: its a lost skill up here for the most part.
mircea_popescu: half of these guys look like they really shoulda been in surgery.
mod6: used to be here every small town had a guy, and you didnt fuck with him
mod6: ok, so anyway, i'll ponder some things tonight and tomorrow, and we'll discuss more.
mats: ;;up nosuchlabs.com
gribble: Error: "up" is not a valid command.
mats: ;;isup nosuchlabs.com
punkman: and hope you can put together a kernel that works with your shit
ben_vulpes: hey i got it running on an old macbook pro
punkman: yeah I got that memo after trying to get 720/1080p video running on 4-5 linux/android SBCs
punkman: at least half of them commited seppuku
punkman: been developing a serious aversion to replacing or buying new hardware
davout: ;;later tell trinque deedbot still chokes on trailing whitespace in OTPs, and from what i see the OTP comes with this trailing space when decrypted
mircea_popescu: mats yeah. a fucking year with this, if you can believe it.
mircea_popescu: including five straight months of 1/4 gb ram box at close to a btc/month pulling our dicks.
mircea_popescu: at this rate the us army capital utilization efficiency can't be far behind.
mircea_popescu: davout ok, so going through third report : as to note 2-3, so you took out 2.15+0.67314231 = 2.82314231 out of liabilities seeing how the house needn't pay itself, i reckon ? this makes sense.
mircea_popescu: davout doing the shareholder math only for verification, it comes out they should receive 86 BTC from auction - 13.37 your fee + 3.35043347 (1% of 335.04334737 winnings ) + 1.21 (donations) + 2.82314231 (house above) which then with the tx fees comes out right.
mircea_popescu: davout but speaking of which cent, you're not seriously going to make all the payments in one single txn are you ? who knows what other unworking bit of the unspecified protocol that "everyone knows" in retrospect but only after it happens we'll end up discovering.
mircea_popescu: davout so i'm thinking this is all good. getting back to
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-08#1448430 i guess we rectify it to i owe you 199.45006789, you owe me 4.83378422 hw credit + 50 for mpex shareholders + 15.00178846 my share (i'm taking it you'll be paying kakobrekla's directly ?) which leaves a net of 129.61449521. that right ?
☝︎ mircea_popescu: in other lulz, this bitly thing is out of the www fantasy lmao. " 24/7 Security We’re looking out for you. We have a dedicated IT team monitoring your account 24/7 and guaranteed 99% uptime. We’re always on the lookout, so you don’t have to be."
mircea_popescu: not far away is the day "guarantee 80% uptime" will be an actual sales point.
mircea_popescu: and in yet more lulz, whoa BingoBoingo can you fucking believe the commenter interest in changetip ?! mindboggling.
shinohai: :Unlike the competition, we can gyarantee 81.3% uptime at a minimum"
gribble: Error: "tcker" is not a valid command.
gribble: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 424.94, Best ask: 425.14, Bid-ask spread: 0.20000, Last trade: 424.94, 24 hour volume: 5500.9353489, 24 hour low: 423.0, 24 hour high: 426.49, 24 hour vwap: None
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: the url shortener? 24/7?
mircea_popescu: they have a page with obscure executivs from anodyne shitshows providing social proof. CAREER, hombre.
mircea_popescu: fucking CAREERS at here today gone tomorrow no model no revenue no hope vc inflatatrons
mircea_popescu: i've been chuckling and smirking all morning ; their treat.
mircea_popescu: didja know wiener media is a thing ? hired some chick that shoulda been a stripper to "senior director of something or the other"
mircea_popescu: (wenner media, rolling stone magazine publisher, they used to sort-of matter in 1982.)
ben_vulpes idly browses faces on their website, looking for this 'shoulda'
ben_vulpes: there's always one beardo taking photos of the inside of his nostrils
ben_vulpes: lol and lindsay anderson doesn't even give enough of a shit to put up anything other than a party pic
ben_vulpes: and just for lolz, let's see what this looks like in a plain text browser
mircea_popescu: look at those fabulous pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/blabla delays.
ben_vulpes: that is not a flattering photo of ms riskin
ben_vulpes: critiquing headshots on shartup websites
mircea_popescu: anyway ; marissa o'hare was a party girl 15-20 years ago. always lulzy to see gals still clinging on to their "29" pix.
ben_vulpes: the rare deadline about which i give a shit
davout: looks like the web log is not up to date
davout: last entry is 03:27 zulu
davout: mircea_popescu: re your comments, you took the previous hw numbers (i made a small mistake in accounting its amount)
davout: ;;calc 1040.78385211 - 841.33337474
davout: (you had 199.45006789 which was slightly off due to this hot wallet error)
davout: from this we remove the 50 for mpex shareholders
mircea_popescu: davout meanwhile, accounting points out another snag. specifically, while it's correct that the proceeds of house bets go to shareholders ; it's incorrect that the bets themselves come out of thin air. the bitbet house bets were not a personal gift of mp to the bitbet shareholders, they were an expense undertook by said shareholders, which i generously (and perhaps ineptly) floated for them. so should be on liability side.
davout: ok, let's just finish this first
davout: ;;calc (1040.78385211 - 841.33337474) - 50 - (30.00357692 / 2)
☟︎ davout: you substracted the hot wallet amount from this, but it's already taken into account in the 841.33337474
davout: ;;calc 750.5 + 86 + (4.25470474 + 0.57867)
mircea_popescu: i see no value in using either 1040 or 841 value of unknown provenance.
davout: see, this includes the hot wallet already ^
mircea_popescu: the entirety of my responsibility here is the sum of bets.
davout: sure, then remove 86 from both the 1040 and 841, same difference
davout: you need to take 335.04334737, the amount before fees
davout: ;;calc (616.53072474 + 335.04334737) - 750.5
mircea_popescu: now im lost as to why the fuck i had a 199 figure which matches netiehr of these ;/
davout: ;;calc (616.53072474 + 335.04334737 + 1.21000000 + 1.99978) - 750.5
davout: ;;calc 204.28385211 - 4.83337474
mircea_popescu: so right right, that's the right number then, 199.45047737, ie owed bets + refunds - hw.
davout: so that's basically, the sum of bets, the donations, the unhandled zeroconf proposal, minus the hot wallet i already have in hand
mircea_popescu: right. so it's the correct basis there. and the hw is indeed already counted.
davout: owed bets + refunds - hw + donations + unhandled
mircea_popescu: alrighty, this is then the correct figure, pending the house bets issue which afaik is the last item.
davout: what's your idea here?
davout: since the last statement there weren't any house bets made amirite
mircea_popescu: my idea is that while it's true that the proceeds from house bets shouldn't be counted against the shareholders - it is at the same time the actual sum of those bets as made should count as a credit for me.
davout: and those before were already accounted for
davout: last report has 0.50 in this item
mircea_popescu: that is entirely besides the point. for every bet currently open, the "house" put in 0.1 btc.
mircea_popescu: these 0.1 btc came out of my own pocket, as a credit towards bitbet, that now has to be unwound.
mircea_popescu: or alternatively, if you prefer, came out of bettor's funds.
mircea_popescu: so : it's true that i don't have to keep the proceeds. it is not however true they're free money.
mircea_popescu: (i imagine you took out the house bet proceeds from liabilities because kakobrekla whined. characteristically for the "partnership" mentality, he forgot to mention this other part.)
davout: you have a point, i'll update the report accordingly
mircea_popescu: i think for some reason you got the idea that if mp gets phuctor server it's ok to come in, redefine it as "trb node" and move on.
mircea_popescu: im sending you your walking papers if you're going to insist playing the idiot, how about that ?
phf: logger down, will recover in a few
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> and in yet more lulz, whoa BingoBoingo can you fucking believe the commenter interest in changetip ?! mindboggling. << Seriously.
shinohai: I think I sent you the copy w/out source BingoBoingo sorry. Was early before I had sufficient coffee.
BingoBoingo: k, resend havent decrypted it yet, or just pm source.
phf: i apologize for downed log, everything's operational, but my backup logs are on a secure machine, that i can't access from mobile. log will be back at 2pm EST
phf: would be nice to have that postgresql connection right about now :)
phf: yeah, but the bot explicitly doesn't reconnect, because i don't want to lose messages and introduce continuity break. perhaps i should just do that as a "good enough" measure, but i want to just write a communicating-multi-bot setup over the weekend
phf: i.e. n-bots connect and reconcile with each other before submitting shared answer to logotron. if i spread them across fleenode servers should account even for splits
trinque: phf: I have not been collecting logs in postgresql because I thought you were going to handle it
☟︎ trinque: yep, it can make use of cl+ssl
trinque: it happened just as I tried to $up myself
mircea_popescu: gets restated periodically, hence mircea_popescu: anyway, freenode does not enjoy any degree of tmsr trust afaik.
mircea_popescu: phf kinda curious how you'll solve the various byzantine problems of a multibot setup.
deedbot: TomServo voiced for 30 minutes.
TomServo: Thanks, just curious what was original or interesting with the probe you mention?
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
TomServo: Interesting... saw something similar.
TomServo: Looks like from Brazil, earlier this morning
trinque: asciilifeform: second IP in my paste is hetzner
trinque: we've got the A team on us, eh?
trinque: then there's 212.129.25.95 who has been careful not to trip fail2ban
trinque: what, you don't think the best and brightest work at the NSA, I mean the subcontractor for the NSA, I mean the sub-sub...
deedbot: TomServo is not registered in WoT.
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
trinque: $v E37DFA225B328852187BD7870400F7CA08DDCEFF2FE2CCA25FCDBF1BC06B6C4E
trinque: $gettrust deedbot TomServo
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
trinque wonders where the mega-lag is coming from
trinque: box was at like 16% cpu at the time
shinohai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo /me noticed slight discrepancy with Shapeshit submission.
deedbot: sbp voiced for 30 minutes.
sbp: that's some foxy loving. thanks asciilifeform!
sbp: here is some more joy from the Times That People [CD]are Not To Recall:
sbp: ("Max Allen and Ted Nelson discuss the future of computers (1979)")
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
trinque: check it out; it's cowboy adlai
sbp: I apologise for not having a PGP presence, the baseline of citizenship
sbp: I'll forbear my Roman name for now, but perhaps the invocations will come to my fingers sooner or later
phf: so either cmucl or i have finally gone mad. (setq *connection* (irc-connect)) few lines later (error "~a" *connection*). error comes back as "NIL"
sbp: asciilifeform: is Phuctor permadead? (the worst kind of dead)
trinque: sbp: service guarantees citizenship, I thought it was
sbp: trinque: you recall the redistribution of land by Lycurgus of Lacedaemon?
sbp: the joke that most historians neglect to mention is that it didn't apply to slaves
trinque: sbp: should you wish to register, just pop your pubkey into deedbot with $register
shinohai: The usg gave phuctor an overdose of Ambien
deedbot: sbp voiced for 30 minutes.
sbp: I may have to endure citizenship just to save you from the ignominy of periodic bot commands
sbp: I'm the Alert Reader from Loper 1361. we don't know one another outside of that, sorry!
sbp: long time listener, second time caller, as they say
sbp: only that, and to enquire about Phuctor. I have not contacted you again for precisely that reason: I abhor tedum too. I did get a copy of Kogge, and I did review it, and I did create various systems based on that. but none were to my liking so far
sbp: the experimentation continues
sbp: have you heard of Reverse Polish Lisp? it was a language for the HP-48 I think from 1987. the idea was that it was meant to combine some of the features of lisp, the high level stuff (as high level as they could squeeze into a late 1980s calculator) and the low level Mooreishness of Forth
sbp: well, it was reverse polish at least, not that this is the most interesting feature of Forth
sbp: but this got me thinking about Lisp bytecode, and whether the best bytecode for Lisp might be Forth, in essence
sbp: also, I don't know if you remember, but the Interlisp-D machine had a program called SEdit
sbp: there isn't much about it on the web now. I think I found a single PDF describing it in detail!
sbp: the idea was that you edited the cons cells directly. there was no intermediate ascii representation. in other words, there was no byte array buffer on which the editor acted; the editor acted directly on the s-expressions in the machine
sbp: a bit like how the SCHEME-79 chip worked. that executed the cons cells directly, as you put it
sbp: well SEdit allowed the editorial process, that protean forge, to work in like direct manner
sbp: so I spent some time thinking about how scoping would work if *lexical* scope were bound to s-expressions and not the ascii representations of programs. because when you think about it, that's all that lexical scope is: it's an artefact of ascii representation, and I thought that perhaps this was not the lispy way
sbp: what I realised was that when you couple scope to s-expressions in this way, it essentially becomes a system of runtime assertions in which you can model not only lexical AND dynamic scope—by choice!—but other kinds of hitherto unexplored scopes too
sbp: the drawback is that because you depend on execution frames (or whatever) for the data, which is what allows the use of dynamic scope of course, this has to be done at runtime. lexical scope would usually be computed at compile time
sbp: I'm not sure I care awfully about the runtime constraint. ("two speeds" of a computer and all that)
sbp: this was all made a lot easier by using de Bruijn notation internally for variables by the way
sbp: when you look at lambda calculus, you get most lacklustre computer scientists talking about alpha-renaming and all this stupid shit that gets in the way, but when you use de Bruijn notation that stuff disappears entirely. it's an epiphenomenon, one of Ptolemy's epicycles
sbp: I also fixed macros, created a previous unheard of macro system which is hygienic without being asinine like all current macro hygiene systems
sbp: but perhaps my favourite thing was that I managed to fix fexprs
sbp: I mean I figured out how to make them compilable
sbp: you remember that Mitchell Wand proved that the theory of fexprs is trivial? i.e. that fexprs cannot actually be compiled, and they must therefore be runtime components
sbp: yeah, well the answer to that is in itself trivial. a child could have come up with it
sbp: Wand's theory, and all the other pissing against fexprs from Pitman onwards, is based on the untyped lambda calculus. naturally. and lisp is untyped in this sense; the types come at runtime
sbp: well, we make one concession to make fexprs that we can compile
sbp: fexprs as arguments to functions must be typed. that's it. that's all we need
sbp: greetings mircea_popescu! I am Sean B. Palmer, very pleased to meet you
sbp: I was invited here by asciilifeform about an hour ago
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> 'look we did our j0b!111 check box in 3ring today' << seems altogether likely, this.
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
sbp: mircea_popescu: no, but I can generate one. I was going to say "easily", but you know what software is like
sbp: asciilifeform: how did you find SEdit? I have only spoken to one friend who used the Interlisp-D machine, and I don't think he said anything about SEdit
mircea_popescu: sbp if you do you'll be able to maintain a presence here / participate in wot etc.
sbp: I was perhaps disingenuous about ascii being the pertinent item. after all, as I say, I could do lexical scope without the ascii representation
mircea_popescu: and holy shit is life impossible without the log. phf when's it 2pm already omaygerd.
phf: asciilifeform: it's a fail
mircea_popescu: sbp for my curiosity, you familiar with the state of republican debate on items such as utf and ascii generally ?
phf: asciilifeform: there's nothing wrong with deliberate don't reconnect, twice that happened and nobody cared or noticed
mircea_popescu: phf odds are that was because people were yet not relying on it for work process ?
phf: nope, three days ago was the last one
sbp: and deedbot is gone. long live deedbot!
phf: there's normally a max half hour with no restarts delay between
phf: there's an unrelated heisenbug, that i'm failing to fix, hold tight
sbp: I guess it's going to try to grab from pgp.mit.edu?
phf: i would like to point out, that the log has been operational for whole two weeks, it's not quite up to standard of the incrementally constructed, 3 year tested, former b-a
sbp: $register 5D7C0216D9809D44825DFD237CAC2A4BC2F2DA35
phf: maybe if i wrote it in ada, it'd be boing 747 on the first try
deedbot: Import failed for 5D7C0216D9809D44825DFD237CAC2A4BC2F2DA35.
sbp: must, fight, entropy
mircea_popescu: sbp infrastructure just got re-built a coupla weeks ago, ironing out bugs still.
deedbot: sbp voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform did you give him a bunch of links or is he this lively by nature ?
sbp: tried it in private to avoid spamming the channel, but I still get failed import
sbp searches bitcoin-assets log for previous registrations
mircea_popescu: sbp bot seems to be in a smashed state. maybe can'\t get outbound connections, we'll see in a bit.
sbp: "Searching pgp.mit.edu for key with fingerprint"
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, can you actually translate that comment yourself ?
sbp: asciilifeform issued a little trivial challenge in the post, directed to the "alert reader", to decode the seal examples that he gives from his single byte encodings into human readable form
mircea_popescu: sbp> why not of ecc? <<< it's in the logs! but in summary : direct equivalent of the obscurantist practice of "whitening" except with math rather than rngs.
sbp: I know he just meant alert reader generally, but he did a previous post where one of our chatlogs was titled "the alert reader", and so I decided to take up the challenge anyway because I was curious as to what the encodings were—I wanted to understand how the seals were intended to be used
sbp: the code was trivial, but I decided to show it to asciilifeform to avoid duplication of effort
sbp: he invited me to post the code to the weblog, and the rest is history
sbp: oh, the spoilers refer to having solved the challenge set in the post. spoilers in the sense of spoiling the end of a movie
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform however the reverend of nyssa's mockery is quite on point you know :D
sbp: I don't know why I wrote it in the style of a Klondike gold prospector era huckster salesman
mircea_popescu: sbp the cardinal sin of writing is to not know why you chose a style.
sbp: ah, where's the fun in that
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform (it was old norman, a marginal dialect of french, disused in france due to paris ascendancy, that survived as a very intricate technical language via oxford law uni.)
sbp: if I were a member of the Guugu Yimithirr I could perform such cardinal sins more easily
sbp: (the "Australian Aboriginal people the Guugu Yimithirr have no words denoting the egocentric directions in their language; instead, they exclusively refer to cardinal directions")
sbp: they did an experiment once where they took a member of the tribe and flipped him around really fast
sbp: after the spin he still knew which direction was which. quite incredible
sbp: I saw something recently where they gave people a belt, and it buzzed in whichever direction was north, to give them haptic feedback as to cardinal directions. they seemed moderately annoyed to indifferent about the belt when wearing it, I recall
sbp: but once the belt was gone, they really missed it
mircea_popescu: the problem of how to prevent the failure mode is of course still open.
mircea_popescu: sbp you got a prototype of this fexpr compiler thing somewhere ?
sbp: nope, I started working on the bytecode stuff straight after that
sbp: well, that is intended to be the compiler target of course. but I haven't finished that yet
mircea_popescu: what's wrong with shutt's expansion, if you absolutely want reflectivity
mircea_popescu: or what exactly is the purpose here, i dun rightly follow.
sbp: Wand and Shutt kept arguing about whether Shutt's expansion even worked, and I don't know the outcome of that. but let's say that Kernel (Shutt's language) does work—it's syntactically somewhat unwieldy. typing the fexprs to the arguments is very clean and easy to follow
sbp: I could certainly accept uncompilable fexprs as being an expression of rubbish hardware though
mircea_popescu: so you have a fundamental objection to syntactical convention and a syntactic convenience objection to a fundamental solution.
sbp: yeah, but the rats are on the chips these days
sbp: so a pure lisp chip like SCHEME-79 would still be cool
sbp: maybe even open hardware! maybe even auditable! imagine that!
sbp: yeah, even if you took a batch and decapped all of them but one, I suppose you wouldn't know for sure that that wasn't the exploited one. I don't know if it's possible to make a chip that you can audit before it's running
sbp: I suppose there's always the FPGA route
sbp: I dunno man. turtles all the way down, and I don't trust any of them
sbp: "and only xilinx's closed turd knows where they are in the routing fabric" — ugh
sbp: don't, you'll give me nightmares. worse ones, I mean
deedbot: sbp voiced for 30 minutes.
sbp: maybe we have to wait another generation or two before we can fab chips at home
mircea_popescu: so other than waiting generations, we and so forth, what is it you do ?
sbp: researcher of early modern history turned freelance programmer
sbp: or vice versa, I forget. maybe both
mircea_popescu: no, not utterly trivial shite. the stuff that you are proud of and pointedly accept as the superset of your capacity and abilities.
sbp: none of that on the web, thank goodness
mircea_popescu: hm. we could then correctly say your real life hasn't begun yet ?
sbp: potentially. but Emily Dickinson locked her poems into a drawer, and they only got out again by chance
sbp: William Blake was going to burn his works. maybe he did!
sbp: Crabb Robinson said that he talked him out of it
sbp: we don't know how many works Sappho wrote
sbp: the only surviving copy of the biography that numbers her works has a hole in it
sbp: right where the number is
sbp: it's the most Loper-like thing I have seen outside of Loper
sbp: must dash for a bit—in case I lack the +v upon my return, it has been a pleasure. thanks for the chat
a111: Logged on 2016-04-14 16:00 trinque: phf: I have not been collecting logs in postgresql because I thought you were going to handle it
phf: moscow highschool has its downsides.
felipelalli: shinohai, that's why I asked what is going with "that" deedbot- :)
mircea_popescu: ah ah. felipelalli will have to wait a little - trinque was updating the two bots to merge into one.
mircea_popescu: this isn't a question that needs an answer. if it works for him it works!
mircea_popescu: the expression tho, "belongs to X who unfortunately is outside the walls" is pretty great.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform inasmuch as the deal doesn't concern you, what "our" planet ?
mircea_popescu: i sleep with women without giving them fingerprint tests!
mircea_popescu: by letting people use good tools in ways that make sense to them, and them only.
mircea_popescu: your job is merely to make sure the bal peen hammer is exceptionally ball peeny.
mircea_popescu: well if you happen to read portuguese it is obvious from the deed he does so grasp it, i thought.
felipelalli: this contract is fine to him (my counterpart "Rhama Bonitao"). I do not run any risk because I get him service first. So, the worst scenario is if I do not pay him, and he has a concrete proof that I promised to pay him. It works, I did it many times before.
felipelalli: anyway, totally agreed with mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: also known as singularily opposable contracts or w/e you call declaratory contracts in english
felipelalli: this contract is public but is not your business
felipelalli: I didn't mean to be rude, I'm sorry. You can ask anything and I'll asnwer, feel free! :)
mircea_popescu: "Ya es tiempo de dejarnos de teorías, que 24 años de experiencia no han producido más que calamidades. Los hombres no viven de ilusiones, sino de hechos: ¿qué me importa que se me repita hasta la saciedad que vivo en un país de libertad si por el contrario se me oprime?... ¡Libertad! désela usted a un niño de tres años para que se entretenga por vía de diversión con un estuche de navajas de afeitar, y usted me con
mircea_popescu: tará los resultados. ¡Libertad! Para que un hombre de honor se vea atacado por una prensa silenciosa, sin que haya leyes que lo protejan y si existen se hagan ilusorias. ¡Libertad! Para que si me dedico a cualquier género de la industria, venga una revolución que me destruya el trabajo de muchos años y la esperanza de dejar un par de bocados a mis hijos. ¡Libertad! Para que se me cargue de contribuciones a fin de pagar
mircea_popescu: los inmensos gastos originados porque a cuatro ambiciosos se les antoja por vía de la especulación, hacer una revolución y quedar impunes. ¡Libertad! ¡Libertad!...Maldita sea la libertad, ni será el hijo de mi madre el que vaya a gozar de los beneficios que ella proporciona, hasta que no vea establecido un gobierno que los demagogos llamen tirano y me proteja contra los bienes que me brinda la actual libertad."
mircea_popescu: jose de san martin (prolly my favourite south american) discussing the despotism of de rosas.
gribble: Error: "deed" is not a valid command.
trinque: ah I didn't release that code yet then
deedbot: gpg: BAD signature from "Felipe Micaroni Lalli (OTC bitcoin user felipelalli, btc address 1LipeR1AjHL6gwE7WQECW4a2H4tuqm768N) <micaroni@gmail.com>"
trinque: I'll join the other one for now, but will probably get the above going this evening.
deedbot: deedbot- voiced for 30 minutes.
TomServo: Did assbot's WoT not get imported to deedbot?
trinque: ben_vulpes: halp, need utf8 header
trinque: TomServo: yeah it did; you were just in there as lowercase
trinque: I've yet to go back and make all the queries case insensitive
trinque: felipelalli: put it on dpaste and feed via $deed as above
trinque: felipelalli: if the deedbot- one is gone, that'll mean use $deed <deed-url> after that
deedbot: Primary key fingerprint: 9E08 5248 33CB 3038 FDE3 85C5 4C0A FCCF ED5C DE14
davout: mircea_popescu: so i'm in the process of updating the report
davout: working on this 'add a house bets item on the liabilities side'
davout: thing is i can't simply do 0.1 btc * number of outstanding bets because some of the house bets expenses have *already* been accounted against the shareholders
davout: and just because the liabilities amount is reduced by the payments that are made back to the house does not imply the converse is true for house bets, as the 'house bet' expense has no particular reason to be accounted for in the same month the 'house bet winnings' are accounted for
davout: so basically my point is that while i'm ok to add a bitbet liability to you for every bet that was seeded after the january report, every house bet that came before that was already paid for by the shareholders
davout: in other words, yes, you have been floating this expense, but only until it was settled in a monthly report by deducting it from the profits you distributed to shareholders
mircea_popescu: davout> thing is i can't simply do 0.1 btc * number of outstanding bets because some of the house bets expenses have *already* been accounted against the shareholders << how and where ?
davout: previous reports state house bets as an expense, this expense is in turn deducted from revenue and reduces the distributed profits to shareholders
davout: if a bet was seeded in december it's already paid for by shareholders, if a bet's been seeded mid february you have been floating it
davout: anything bet seeding that came after the january report should be accounted as a liability to you
mod6: does anyone know python and wanna give me like 5 minutes of help?
mircea_popescu: davout as a liability to bitbet / owed to me you mean ?
davout: i did not say 'liability to bitbet', did i?
davout: in other words, for every bet that was seeded after the jan. report i owe you .1 btc
davout: i see the end of the tunnel
davout: so the next question is obviously, 'which bets have been seeded after the january report?'
davout: or more precisely, which bet seedings have not been accounted fo ryet
davout: i can simply compare the minimum bet timestamp for each proposal with februart fouth
davout: no scratch that, the number of 'accepted bets' as reported in the february statement would do
davout: march report makes no mention of any such accepted proposals
mircea_popescu: Bet started:1 month 4 days ago (11-03-2016) << i think p
davout: but i guess i'd have to double check against the actual data i have in the DB, might as well go and find the information there directly
davout: ok, i'll go for checking the DB then
mircea_popescu: but yes i think end of tunnel is right. by now we're discussing bitcents, it's pretty well pinned down.
davout: they're important, after all bitcoins are made of bitcents
mod6: bitcoins are made of integers
davout: serious shane is so serious
mod6: i was just pointing back to last weeks conversation about the nature of a coin. a float, 'tis not. :]
mod6 goes back to wrestling with python
mircea_popescu: mod6 btw, dun ask to ask! i dunno python that well, but mebbe if i knew what you needed ?
shinohai: Maybe he's wrestling with wrong python and should seek professional female help :D
mod6: i need someone to help me turn this into something that works:
mod6: best I can seem to get is this:
mod6: NameError: global name 'sequences' is not defined
mod6: yeah. i dunno anything about python, or even how to really run this thing properly.
mircea_popescu: ie, instead of def sequences(blabla) def self.sequences(blabla)
trinque: mod6: maybe the guy meant "collections" ?
trinque: from collections import index
trinque: ah shit what was it, I just did it
mircea_popescu: mod6 if you actually care enough, iirc the site had a decent manual/tutorial
mod6: i actually don't care /that/ much. im trying to wrap my brain around the truth table for the d6, with three rolls.
mod6: thought the program might help a bit.
mod6: cause really, i don't care baout the d6, i need to invent the table for d16
mircea_popescu: dig through the guy's site also, he has various extensions/improvements discussed.
mod6: i guess it's just the same thing with more values, just was going to try to mod this guys shit to see if I did it right so i dont shoot myself in the face
mod6: i'll probably just re-write it in perl. sigh. fucking hate python.
trinque: could be the index builtin on list, and he didn't bother to show that list in his code
trinque: sequences being a global list
mod6: its like the worst of all worlds, some OO, some lisp, some indentation bullshit.
mod6: heheh. that's pretty ugly there too.
mod6: i'll just write one up tonight. i just tried to cheat a bit by using this one.
trinque: I learned recently that the "inventor" of ruby is a japanese mormon