assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84475 @ 0.00054571 = 46.0989 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40000 @ 0.00054572 = 21.8288 BTC [+]
thestringpuller: "Using 21's bitnodes service, we determined that 1037 classic nodes are hosted using Amazon's AWS. "
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40114 @ 0.0005453 = 21.8742 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42300 @ 0.00054519 = 23.0615 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40800 @ 0.00054299 = 22.154 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69200 @ 0.0005421 = 37.5133 BTC [-] {4}
jurov: TIL eulora reached homeostasis? LOL
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28100 @ 0.0005421 = 15.233 BTC [-] {3}
jurov: it sometimes crashes, of course :D
jurov: but in the course of this, i got an idea, is there a small lisp/scheme implemented in ada?
jurov: that would be some bedrock
jurov: because on C mechine, succumbing to various kinds of magic colored pointer unions is practical necessity.. so ada type safety should help
nubbins`: <mircea_popescu> does this come with an absolute guarantee that i am not responsible for anything past raw tx, and if it never gets included, bettor is out the money, because i will not under any circumstances repay it ? << lel better not stick with 0-fee tx if you're gonna go that route.
nubbins`: "bitbet, where payouts are literally the lowest priority"
nubbins`: "bitbet, where we don't have nine cents to spare"
nubbins`: whoever constructed A1 should be relieved of their duties
danielpbarron: fee is not required if inputs are sufficiently old enough, which in this case they appear to have been
nubbins`: sure, if the mempool hadn't been olympic sized
nubbins`: nexus pass is not required if there's no lineup at the airport
nubbins`: still gotta fight through the crowds to get to the gate
danielpbarron: i guess this falls into the "well what the heck is the protocol, oh right there isn't one" category. How do you know a miner will choose a high fee tx over a high priority tx?
nubbins`: you know after the fact, it turns out
jurov: cuz satoshi coded it so?
jurov: and miners haven't touched it?
jurov: is that tooo far fetched notion?
nubbins`: if there's only so much space in a block for 0-fee tx's, and the mempool is overflowing, obviously it's gonna take days for your 0-fee tx to get put into a block, even if everyone knows about it
nubbins`: and since it's in the queue, you can make as many As as you like
assbot: The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... (
http://bit.ly/1TYAbOv )
nubbins`: all will be discarded because A1 is waiting for the cheap seats
assbot: [MPEX:X.EUR] 1D: 0.00256252 / 0.00259952 / 0.00262899 (553 shares, 1.44 BTC), 7D: 0.00254491 / 0.00259055 / 0.00262899 (1903 shares, 4.93 BTC), 30D: 0.00253517 / 0.00272634 / 0.00332476 (10278 shares, 28.02 BTC)
nubbins`: a 0-fee tx during a mempool flood is like expecting to hitch a free ride from turkey to macedonia
jurov: ;;calc 1/0.00370358
jurov: whotf puts these asks on x.eur
danielpbarron: i don't see how a "mempool flood" should effect a high priority transaction.. or was the flooder sophisticated enough to have created all the inputs long ago so that they too would be high priority?
jurov: mkay, flipped. this ersatz marketmaking is quite ejoyable
nubbins`: listen, i'm a high priority customer at Mr. Rooter
nubbins`: but if three other high priority taco lovers clog their toilets first, i'm waiting in line
jurov: <ad break>You could have got x.eur from me with only 2% fee over vwap and flipped them at these insane prices!</ad>
jurov: i am accepting transferwise
jurov: yes, send me 102 euros, get 100 x.eur
danielpbarron: well it's pretty obvious to me what caused the insane prices. "divestment"
nubbins`: or, y'know, a cartel blowing their cover by fucking with bitbet payouts.
danielpbarron: not people who want euros, so much as they ~don't want~ bitcoin, and don't want to touch actual fiat
jurov: lmao. but they could have pestered davout to get much better price from his bot instead
nubbins`: i feel bad carrying on but this is seriously the highest lelevator i've ever been in
nubbins`: how ya figure, because the logic doesn't follow
nubbins`: ("you don't get to say what the logic is! &c")
mircea_popescu: but congrats on being the nth lazy thinker who has a simple theory in his head, cut ~80% of the facts or so that fit it, and is ready to reddit about the matter.
nubbins`: you're sniffing glue if you think a cartel withholding bitbet payouts is the simplest explanation
mircea_popescu: nubbins`> all will be discarded because A1 is waiting for the cheap seats << except the part where these nodes would also advertise it, which they didn't do. and except for the part where nodes that keep txn forever are am yth. and except for anything actually to do with reality, as opposed to some cartoon someone saw last year on tedspeak or w/e.
mircea_popescu: nubbins` we had this thread. make your own theory, CROSSING ALL THE POINTS.
nubbins`: advertising 0-fee tx's in a mempool flood is a DOS attack
☟︎ mircea_popescu: as opposed to "here is what i opine - i know all about huffing glue because, practically speaking, it's what i do all day".
nubbins`: accepting but not advertising them -- isn't
nubbins`: and nodes don't have to keep tx's "forever", we're talking two days max between rebroadcasts.
mircea_popescu: the facts are there, write your explanation for them and spare me.
mircea_popescu: so a1 blocked a2, then a2 blocked a3 then a3 blocked a4 ?
nubbins`: use your reading comprehension skills
mircea_popescu: so a1 blocked a2, 3 and 4 because it sat in pool for 8 days because reasons ?
nubbins`: because there was a lineup for the cheap seats because of the mempool flood
mircea_popescu: that made no sense. try again using meaningful words this time.
nubbins`: like talking to a bag of hammers
mircea_popescu: apparently the way the internet works [according to idiots] is that one guy that knows about things by virtue of being one of the guys that actually do things describes some facts, and is now obliged to entertain the half-baked idiocy of any random opiner.
nubbins`: ^ stopped reading after "according"
mircea_popescu: whatever. keep your ideas, i don't want them nor do they carry any value.
nubbins`: do you suppose maybe there were other 0-fee high priority transactions floating around at that time? hmm? check out a graph of the mempool size
mircea_popescu: dude... seriously, stick to printing or w/e it is you understand.
nubbins`: i like how when you run out of logical rebuttals it's all "dude" and "srsly, just w/e"
mircea_popescu: there's no "logical rebuttal". you have some facts, go write a theory. maybe i'll bother reading it. seeing who it comes from, probably not. that's all.
nubbins`: "no, you don't get it, MY zero-fee transaction should have taken priority because reasons"
nubbins`: i tried putting it in simplified english for you, but it didn't take
nubbins`: or, y'know, bitcoin is dead because a chinese mining cartel is selectively blocking BITBET PAYOUTS.
mircea_popescu: !rate nubbins` -1 more or less shoemaker insistent on derping above the crepidam.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.nubbins`.-1:2f86f1e0d27e296c65d393c3735b6596cc002265d63e3fc387f97968b5b46f24
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for nubbins` from 2 to -1 with note: more or less shoemaker insistent on derping above the crepidam.
mircea_popescu: you'll be on my ignore list. if you actually have something to say find a lord to play telephone, but ideally spare me.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33300 @ 0.00054113 = 18.0196 BTC [-] {3}
jurov: that escalated quickly
mircea_popescu: if i wanted to talk to redditards i'd make a reddit account.
jurov: So, w're back to mp and alf being 80% i guess.
nubbins`: sorry guys, anyone who thinks MP's explanation makes more sense needs their head checked at a trauma hospital
nubbins`: seems pretty obvious that in a huge backlog of transactions, one of them is going to be the lowest priority
nubbins`: aaaand ftr i meant what i said about being relieved of duties, imagine sending a 17btc tx out into the wild and then /sending the same amount of money again from a different address/
nubbins`: if ever there was an indication that mp stopped giving a fuck about anything but spending the usd he cashed his btc out into, this is it
nubbins`: anyway. peace. asciilifeform feel free to leave your particulars with gribble for me
assbot: BitBet - Parties SMER-SD and SNS to win supermajority in Slovak parliament :: 0.87 B (38%) on Yes, 1.42 B (62%) on No | closed 3 days 3 hours ago ... (
http://bit.ly/1QweIc2 )
mircea_popescu: is there a good source to document how you convert from these ?
jurov: doh, they are incredibly slow.. there is "allocation of seats" link but they have not done it yet.
assbot: BitBet - Mariano Rajoy to remain PM of Spain after December Election :: 0.21 B (78%) on Yes, 0.06 B (22%) on No | closed 2 months 3 weeks ago ... (
http://bit.ly/1QweQIw )
mircea_popescu: believe it or not IN FUCKING MARCH the spanyards do not yet rightly know whether that fucktard won or not the december election.
trinque settles in to catch up on a weekend of l0gz
jurov: trinque: prepare several buckets of popcorn
BingoBoingo: and gnashing and wailing, bargaining, depression, and finally acceptance. Also touch of denial mixed in.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22300 @ 0.00054054 = 12.054 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35351 @ 0.00054005 = 19.0913 BTC [-] {4}
jurov: mircea_popescu: to mpex pls
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28200 @ 0.00054332 = 15.3216 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16000 @ 0.0005396 = 8.6336 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11800 @ 0.00053958 = 6.367 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22780 @ 0.00053958 = 12.2916 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20350 @ 0.0005387 = 10.9625 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39753 @ 0.00053843 = 21.4042 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44948 @ 0.00053743 = 24.1564 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22778 @ 0.00053734 = 12.2395 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38000 @ 0.00054122 = 20.5664 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41500 @ 0.00054285 = 22.5283 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4143 @ 0.00054122 = 2.2423 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22863 @ 0.00053687 = 12.2745 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27522 @ 0.00053685 = 14.7752 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31800 @ 0.00053673 = 17.068 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18435 @ 0.0005363 = 9.8867 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21065 @ 0.00053618 = 11.2946 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19700 @ 0.00053576 = 10.5545 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18900 @ 0.00053646 = 10.1391 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16150 @ 0.0005357 = 8.6516 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57254 @ 0.00053547 = 30.6578 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33150 @ 0.00053668 = 17.7909 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44200 @ 0.00053547 = 23.6678 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54877 @ 0.00053544 = 29.3833 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27300 @ 0.000537 = 14.6601 BTC [+]
punkman: "You are using GnuPG version 1.4.12, which is not supported anymore. Enigmail requires GnuPG version 2.0.7 or newer. Please upgrade your GnuPG installation, or Enigmail will not work"
punkman: not like I used it anyway but annoying
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57600 @ 0.0005346 = 30.793 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22700 @ 0.00053427 = 12.1279 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52257 @ 0.00053565 = 27.9915 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 02:59:17; mircea_popescu: sturle's theory fell apart upon examination in chan.
nubbins`: all i see is mp and alf complaining loudly that sturles' node shouldn't work the way it does because it's improper
nubbins`: if that's a "theory falling apart", i'd like to see you guys take on gravity, or germ theory
nubbins`: "little tiny bugs shouldn't be able to hurt a hyooman!"
nubbins`: !rate mircea_popescu -1 tinpot dictator, throws tantrums when embarrassed. petulant and unwilling to admit error in the face of overwhelming evidence. a poor example of how a lord should behave. great for milking a few BTC from, but otherwise avoid.
nubbins`: !v assbot:nubbins`.rate.mircea_popescu.-1:c4b87f050b85b49aada6a81e8e32c6367bd53b43f88ada62c95a94b10e8e417d
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mircea_popescu from 2 to -1 with note: tinpot dictator, throws tantrums when embarrassed. petulant and unwilling to admit error in the face of overwhelming evidence. a poor example of how a lord should behave. great for milking a few BTC from, but otherwise avoid.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46350 @ 0.00053421 = 24.7606 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62443 @ 0.00053565 = 33.4476 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8999 @ 0.00053609 = 4.8243 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56600 @ 0.00053791 = 30.4457 BTC [+] {4}
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 410.5, vol: 5166.35971885 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 412.934, vol: 7021.9455 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 410.5, vol: 13974.58828093 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 408.0, vol: 1.20992211 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 419.4288, vol: 52510.01710000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 408.494, vol: 1300.31356398 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 410.81265, vol: 235.90882398 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
nubbins`: weird that the chinese mining cartel revealing themselves hasn't affected the exchange rate
nubbins`: you'd think it'd be a big deal
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21620 @ 0.00053609 = 11.5903 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6900 @ 0.00053609 = 3.699 BTC [-]
nubbins`: maybe the market got confused and accidentally dumped 500btc worth of MPOE over the last 24 hours instead of dumping all their btc
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33495 @ 0.00053609 = 17.9563 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4800 @ 0.0005392 = 2.5882 BTC [+] {2}
danielpbarron: nubbins`, it looks like you're the one throwing a tantrum, and it "shouldn't work that way" is the general complaint in here against bitcoin for some time now. this event was more like the last straw kinda thing
nubbins`: and "shouldn't work that way" does not mean the same thing as "did not happen"
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 02:59:17; mircea_popescu: sturle's theory fell apart upon examination in chan.
nubbins`: ^ did it, though? feel free to link.
nubbins`: in fact, no rebuttal to sturles' explanation was offered -- just a lot of gnashing about "but that's crazy!"
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 396 @ 0.00271748 = 1.0761 BTC [-] {2}
nubbins` is a bit surprised that more lords aren't concerned about mp's shame leading him to proposing an altcoin as the way forward
danielpbarron: it's not like the code is something wonderful to behold. The only thing it had going for it was that some important people found a use in it for a time
shinohai: Not a lord here, but I have a lot of time invested in trb and I agree with danielpbarron.
shinohai: Eventually one has to stop building with legos and mve on to more robust materials.
nubbins`: if mp no longer finds a use for btc, i'm eagerly awaiting the liquidation of all mpex assets
nubbins`: danielpbarron if your interest in a subject is predicated on who else is interested in it, then i have no sensible response
kakobrekla: actually this somewhat fixes "bitcoin is too accessible" as the requirements to include tx in a block are having your own block producing setup
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 02:59:17; mircea_popescu: sturle's theory fell apart upon examination in chan.
nubbins`: asciilifeform care to offer an opinion on ^
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32150 @ 0.00053591 = 17.2295 BTC [-] {4}
nubbins`: kako and i seem to agree that nothing about sturles' theory "fell apart upon examination", although we'd both be eager to hear your thoughts on the topic
nubbins`: asciilifeform first things first, sturles' theory: fell apart upon examination or no?
punkman: gotta explain why the 0fee tx wasn't visible in anyone's mempool for days, although I don't know how exactly mp examined the mempools and of which nodes he was connecting to
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 02:49:05; nubbins`: advertising 0-fee tx's in a mempool flood is a DOS attack
punkman: the fact it was resurrected is not surprising if you ask me
nubbins`: my node wouldn't have broadcast A1 until the backlog subsided
nubbins`: i'll broadcast 0-fee tx's when it suits me, not the other way around
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform>punkman: he has, iirc, a thing that tries to connect to 'anyone who's anyone' as determined by his intel << seems his intel connected him to a shit set of nodes
punkman: anyway if someone can replicate the experiment with similarly old coins, that would not favor the bitbet-screwed-by-miners theory
nubbins`: i could, as i've got an enormous amount of coins that haven't moved in a very long time
nubbins`: but i have extremely low incentive to help mp exorcise his ghosts
nubbins`: shinohai re: the link you posted
nubbins`: how'd the mempool look when that guy's tx was sent out?
jurov: i can offer coinbr users' coins for the experiments... seems using users' funds is en vogue
nubbins`: asciilifeform do note that collusion on tx relay nodes in the form of "don't broadcast 0-fee tx's if the mempool is > x" would explain observed behaviour
nubbins`: obviously ant/f2 have node farms as well as mining farms
nubbins`: if there was 60 live nodes last year, it seems extremely improbable that a mining cartel wouldn't rent out a data center and stuff it with nodes
nubbins`: once that's in place, whatever rules they set are essentially universal
nubbins`: but that's not "deliberately withholding bitbet's tx"
nubbins`: that's "withholding all 0-fee tx's during a backlog"
nubbins`: if ant/f2 own 500 nodes out of an available 560, how in the fuck are you gonna see a transaction that they're not broadcasting?
nubbins`: ESPECIALLY if you're only connected to your favourite whitelisted nodes?
nubbins`: do you have any idea how many 0-fee transactions i could make, today, with higher priority than A1?
nubbins`: i could've kept A1 in limbo for a month if i'd wanted to
nubbins`: 0-fee tx followed by 3 double-spend attempts in the midst of a mempool backlog
nubbins`: neither did the 20,000 transactions ahead of it with higher priority
nubbins`: how does a node operator distinguish between the 50,000 spam 0-fee tx's and bitbet's 0-fee tx?
nubbins`: calling A1 spam was a stretch and not correct, but calling A1 anything other than the absolute lowest priority is unreasonable
nubbins`: again, i could create 10k tx's right now with older inputs than A1
nubbins`: and i wouldn't even have to crack open two cold wallets
nubbins`: asciilifeform the age of A1's inputs ranged from a couple days to a couple months iirc
nubbins`: do we have a reason to think which was done?
davout: asciilifeform: any bitbet recipient had a strong incentive to rebroadcast, as soon as the second transaction actually paid them
davout: not sure what makes you say that the tx reappearing needs any kind of explanation other than "people like extra money"
nubbins`: look: i receive A1 when it's first broadcast, i hold onto it but i DON'T RELAY IT because my backlog is too big.
nubbins`: once my backlog has been eliminated, i have no qualms about relaying A1
nubbins`: but if i have a massive backlog, no 0-fee bum is gonna get a free ride
nubbins`: if you think the relaying of A1 was triggered by B, you're daft
nubbins`: an actor doing it on purpose, sure
nubbins`: what bitbet payout recipient wouldn't want free coins
nubbins`: hell, maybe the "bitbet stole my coinz" guy relayed it
nubbins`: but a cabal saying "OK guise, he paid out from a new source, let's get A1 back out there!".... c'mon
nubbins`: don't insult your own intelligence
nubbins`: hmm i wonder if mp putting me on ignore means he's gotta filter me from his logs as well
nubbins`: he's gonna find conversations really hard to follow
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31575 @ 0.00053402 = 16.8617 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9474 @ 0.00053402 = 5.0593 BTC [-]
danielpbarron: nubbins`> again, i could create 10k tx's right now with older inputs than A1 << isn't this a "glass canon" as in, can only be fired once? How many nubbins` are out there with cannons? It costs money to assemble this weapon in short order. You have it from years of doing business.
shinohai: "Anyone can access it and submit answers, which means that anyone can impersonate a police officer, prosecutor, or other law enforcement official."
nubbins`: danielpbarron don't pretend to assume you know how many glass cannons i have
nubbins`: also, don't change the argument into how feasible it is for a lowly shoemaker to pull it off
nubbins`: you meant that in general it's an expensive attack and would require lots of old coins
nubbins`: do you suppose there are any miners out there who'd be interested in generating a large mempool backlog for any given reason?
nubbins`: do you suppose any large-scale miner would be anything but a complete fucking idiot if they haven't been socking away a percentage of each block reward for use when old coins are needed?
danielpbarron: i suppose that there are plenty of groups, including miners, who would like to interfere with #bitcoin-assets properties
nubbins`: i suppose you grossly overestimate what you're a part of
nubbins`: look: how many new coins each day?
danielpbarron: if what i'm a part of isn't as big as my estimation, I don't care for bitcoin anyway. So whatever.
danielpbarron: you got your bouquinism and I got my Bible. I just hope other people have their things or it can get pretty depressing
nubbins`: 3600 new coins per day, give or take
danielpbarron: regarding this hypothesis that miners are socking away a percentage, why then do most coin bases have a single output?
danielpbarron: as far as i know, the only pool taking advantage of the ability to create as many outputs as you want in a coin base is Luke-Jr's Eligius
nubbins`: uh, you know you can move the coins again, right?
danielpbarron: yeah but why not just do it in the first place? even older.
nubbins`: easier bookkeeping, for starters
nubbins`: why don't you see pool-mined blocks split the reward into a million outputs?
nubbins`: because it's retarded to chop up a reward before you have to
danielpbarron: well that's what Eligius does, or did last i looked into it
nubbins`: this doesn't preclude the fact that /any/ individual pool miner can have 10%, or 50%, or 100% of his daily take socked away immediately into long-term storage
davout: danielpbarron: just because Luke-Jr does it doesn't necessarily make it sensible
adlai: p2pool does this, too
nubbins`: ;;echo sounds like you thought this whole ignore thing through about as much as you thought through your cartel conspiracy
gribble: sounds like you thought this whole ignore thing through about as much as you thought through your cartel conspiracy
davout: danielpbarron: also splitting coinbases directly hurts the miner's bottom line
nubbins`: ;;echo enjoy following the convo
adlai: splitting coinbases only makes sense for pools which actually have multiple workers
nubbins`: why do extra work when the timer's counting down? adding a single extra output could mean the difference between mining a block and not
adlai: (in which case, it *helps* the bottom line, sparing the cost of payout txen)
davout: mircea_popescu: not sure what you're referring to?
nubbins`: given that age is a factor in propagating tx's, it seems implausibly short-sighted to assume that miners don't keep a portion of their earnings untouched to build up age
davout: mircea_popescu: these weren't me
nubbins`: given that any rational miner would save old coins, it seems implausible to think that a small number of miners would be unable to create a huge mempool backlog
nubbins`: given that it's trivial to create a large backlog of old coins, it seems implausible to think that mp's relatively new coins could not simultaneously be high enough priority to be kept in mempool but low enough priority that it's one of the last tx's to be cleared
davout: bot was down last night too obviously
danielpbarron: you got a blog, go investigate the age of flood inputs and write it up; i'll read it
nubbins`: given that miners who run node farms aren't fucking idiots, it seems implausible to assume that halting rebroadcast of lowest-priority tx's until the backlog is cleared is not a thing that would happen
nubbins`: danielpbarron why in the fuck would i do that? i'm not so cheap that i can't afford a dime for fees
nubbins` has never, ever, ever had a stuck tx and is baffled as to why anyone w/ money ever would
nubbins`: a dime. actually nine american cents at the time of the incident.
danielpbarron: nubbins`, you should write it up for the sake of changing the minds of people who are so far not impressed with your unsubstantiated claims in the channel
nubbins`: i should just state the obvious explanation and let whoever wants to sing about cartel collusion do so
mircea_popescu: this is novel, even for 600byte txn with above-average fees and 10^10 size inputs aged halfyear+
nubbins`: idgaf about some 17btc transaction, only to point out that if someone touts targeted collusion as the most likely answer, they're probably selling something
nubbins`: i actually think it's beyond mirthful that mp lost 17 btc of bitbet's money
nubbins`: and is so hotly ashamed that he's resorted to this
trinque: who the fuck cares what amuses you, and how does that illuminate the issue?
trinque: this level of discourse is what's shameful.
mircea_popescu: so yes, for the sake of keeping the record straight - it is not possible for miners to include my (high-S, btw!) txn in blocks within 2:55 if in fact running a chain head delayed reporting scheme. either it got turned off or it never existed in the first place, anyone's call.
nubbins`: trinque agreed. mp's ludicrously false statements set the bar really low
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 02:59:17; mircea_popescu: sturle's theory fell apart upon examination in chan.
nubbins`: still waiting for someone besides mp to agree that this is what happened
nubbins`: preferably with, y'know, a link to where it happened
nubbins`: rather than blankly stating it to be so
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10850 @ 0.00053622 = 5.818 BTC [+]
nubbins`: anyone else who wishes to bring up the subject of shameful discourse is welcome to revisit the logs where i began speaking on this topic
nubbins`: and see who was interested in speaking like an adult and who was interested in speaking like a child
trinque: regardless, it's a fine way to go forward.
nubbins`: i know everyone else likes to just let idiocy happen
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15773 @ 0.00053402 = 8.4231 BTC [-]
nubbins`: i was forced by my own sanity to actually call this one for what it was
mircea_popescu: adlai there's some historical charge in there : bitcoin's first and largest ponzi ran a "mining" whatever, for the obvious and transparent purpose of acquiring freshly minted coins to pay out the idiot "investors". this was a major contributor to the early crystalisation of what came to be known later as "mining pools" which is what eventually in due time coallesced into today's problem. whether it was avoidable at all
mircea_popescu: or not is dubious, but that aside pirate's gpumax certainly played a major early role.
mircea_popescu: people didn't use to split coinbases because they preferred to sell them, for 103% or w/e.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13027 @ 0.00053399 = 6.9563 BTC [-] {2}
nubbins`: did you guys also like how the 17 btc of mp's own money that he lost is going to be taken from shareholder dividends?
☟︎ nubbins`: not sure how kakobrekla feels about that, but if i worked for a company where my boss gave away 17 btc of his own money and then recouped it from the company's dividends, i'd call the cops
nubbins`: (bitbet, being a 0-asset corporation, did not own the funds contained in transaction B; they were ostensibly owned by mp. any funds disbursed via B are not the responsibility of bitbet in any way, shape, or form)
nubbins`: in fact, the entire S.BBET february statement is fraudulent, based on this
nubbins`: unfortunately, mp's gonna have to wait until he catches up on the logs to read that ^
nubbins`: trinque, danielpbarron, other assorted fans?
hanbot: nubbins' your projectile posturing isn't particularly useful. mp told you, i count two? three times? yest how to form your thoughts into something reviewable.
trinque: this is what I meant about the level of discourse. I have not declared myself a "fan" of anything.
hanbot: you fucked that up, what, you figure more spewing is the answer?
trinque: there is a scientific way to criticize a claim.
dooglus: I was looking at trb, and trying to sync it from my bitcoin core node
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37083 @ 0.00053694 = 19.9113 BTC [+] {3}
dooglus: I notice core won't talk to it for long before cutting it off
dooglus: "receive version message: /therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/: version 99999" and - um - 0.12?
mircea_popescu: hm. and you have these two running on the same machine, or within a local net ?
dooglus: core doesn't like messages bigger than 2MB, and trb sends ~7MB messages
dooglus: that's why it's getting disconnected. both on the same machine
mircea_popescu: something which may be related if not outright this is known here as blackholing
dooglus: (with -port and -rpcport, on separate users)
mircea_popescu: it'd be interesting if you managed to reproduce it in the lab.
trinque: could also be the malleus patch if that version of prb issues heathen commands
dooglus: see main.cpp: int nLimit = 500 /* + locator.GetDistanceBack() */ ;
☟︎ dooglus: commenting out that part fixed it for me - they talk happily now
assbot: You have not rated dooglus.
dooglus: GetDistanceBack() is huge, causing it to try requesting 100k's of headers at once
dooglus: you unpersoned me because CLAM
mircea_popescu: !rate dooglus 2 ran one of the best dice sites of all times, before being torpedoed by fiat government posturing. trb testing.
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.dooglus.2:3c6c25e386479486e1de0e81ec42ca24bfd40f96aa16d1252b39ca9e7d5e8af3
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 2 for dooglus with note: ran one of the best dice sites of all times, before being torpedoed by fiat government posturing. trb testing.
dooglus: oh, I was also wondering - is it normal that the trb build process downloads and builds the linux kernel?
☟︎ trinque: dooglus: yep, it is using buildroot to have a deterministic build environment
nubbins`: <+hanbot>you fucked that up, what, you figure more spewing is the answer? << you don't seem to get that me spelling the entire thing out again in long form is zero on my list of priorities, but i appreciate you switch-hitting for mp because it'd really look silly if he responded himself
mircea_popescu: dooglus yeah. it's fully encapsulated, initial idea was to run it on pogos.
mircea_popescu: well.. actually that's still the idea, just we ended up running around with all sorts of subquests that turned mainline.
shinohai: I still have faith that one day my pogo will sing.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: i sitll have crates of the things in storage that will one day sing.
nubbins`: dooglus: are you saying that trb nodes are eventually ignored by core nodes simply due to trb passing enormously large messages?
shinohai: mircea_popescu: I wound up buying 3 thanks to mats, had considered more lol
nubbins`: which oddly confirmed almost right away because i blew a whole quarter on the fees
nubbins`: one has to wonder if bitbet is using this boojum in production
hanbot: nubbins' what again? didn't you just bitch at someone over not giving a link to what they claim happened? take a breather, preferably a long one, and figure your own shit out. you're smelling.
mircea_popescu: fortunately with that asshole mp killing moore's law, not terrible danger of pogos ever not being worth the 10 bux or w/e they cost.
nubbins`: oh, you need a link to the bitbet listing agreement?
hanbot: jesus already. get lost.
nubbins`: you'll find the text for section 3.2 (h) under section 3.2 (h)
nubbins`: struggling harder than mod6 was just to get a gentoo install running
nubbins`: then daring to enter into a conversation about technical issues
dooglus: see commit 85ea8b4f4380dac803d43cd0b7829b107cc09e38 in core : "Limit getheaders to a hard 2000" - fixes the issue there
mircea_popescu: it just turned a mild magic number ("get all the headers no less than 2000) into a fucking protocol limit. "only get 2k". this is utter nonsense.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: and any "node" running that crap is ipso facto and for this non-compliant with bitcoin
dooglus: this isn't creating the protocol limit of 2MB - that's elsewhere
dooglus: but ... but ... the protocol is whatever core does! didn't you hear?
nubbins`: danielpbarron there were too many iterations of deedbot so i rolled my own. i can share the code, but it should be compatible
mircea_popescu: possibly on account of all the heralds of that idiocy getting shot.
nubbins`: "You are free to be as offensive, annoying, disparaging, crass, crude or indecorous you feel the need or inclination to be. This includes any and all comments that in other, non-professional venues may be regarded as racist, sexist, chauvinist, fascist or whatever else. Pros don't give a shit, it's the clueless twits and assorted pretenders that do"
trinque: nubbins`: got an axe to grind with everyone now?
nubbins`: yeah, "now". maybe you should read the rules too, or shut the fuck up and get out
nubbins`: everyone QQing because nubs is a meanie
nubbins`: trinque "Professional means that you respect your elders, on account of their superior experience, which makes them better people than you. "
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22709 @ 0.00053452 = 12.1384 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 15:38:44; dooglus: oh, I was also wondering - is it normal that the trb build process downloads and builds the linux kernel?
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 15:40:39; shinohai: I still have faith that one day my pogo will sing.
shinohai: Nothing says Republic like gladitorial combat! :D
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14562 @ 0.00053523 = 7.794 BTC [+] {2}
nubbins`: asciilifeform ideally it'd be settled by mp admitting he was grossly incorrect and revising the statement
nubbins`: asciilifeform but something tells me that s.bbet is going to be a "scam investment" from here on out.
nubbins`: after all, 17 btc is one thing, pride is another
gribble: Current Blocks: 401587 | Current Difficulty: 1.584272037673917E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 403199 | Next Difficulty In: 1612 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 3 days, 9 hours, 36 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
mircea_popescu: anyway. 2 has a much more obvious solution, if as discussed not exactly trivial and wtf are fibonacci stacks.
mircea_popescu: this however - you will conceivably need some sort of block indexing mechanism.
nubbins` is curious to hear opinions of others re: bitbet fraud, but fears that he'll be the only one sticking up for the investors
mircea_popescu: well it's certainly voiding the warranty, as that's not what the ram is for.
mircea_popescu: (imagine, as a subtopic, the wonder of computing if hardware came with guarantee "unless used for uinappropiate purpose" and then coders had to write code that didn't void any warranties.)
PeterL: for the record, I agree with nubbins` about bitbet transction
nubbins`: either way, introducing a private debt to s.bbet is plainly breaking the listing agreement, and the method by which mp has proposed to discharge it is also plainly breaking the listing agreement
nubbins`: it's interesting to see a man's will fight cold logic
mircea_popescu: the shareholders can have all the legit complaints they want, about anything that happens whatsoever. we can all hold hands and sing kumbaya about our legit complaints that bitcoin doesn't work, and we would like it to, and it should be fixed by other people at their expense so we can continue our lifestyle undeterred. meanwhile - nonvoting shares can be sold, and if there's a single icann in the lot with enough actual
mircea_popescu: gumption to put together a hostile takeover package, i'll certainly consider it.
PeterL: mircea_popescu made a stupid mistake, and now he makes the shareholders pay for it
mircea_popescu: and i suppose i'm going to have my own legit complaints about how much this thing costs to run, and start billing by the hour, and in fiat, and the legit complainers can run off to the bank with their bitcoin and pay, or somesuch nonsense.
nubbins`: ;;echo "don't like fraud? sell your shares"
gribble: don't like fraud? sell your shares
mircea_popescu: PeterL when the ceo of a company makes a stupid mistake, the company pays for it. there are exactly no exceptions to this rule, nor will there ever be. morever, even when what the ceo does isn't a stupid mistake, the shareholders still pay for it.
☟︎ nubbins`: ;;echo don't like fraud? shut the fuck up or i'll vastly inflate expenses
gribble: don't like fraud? shut the fuck up or i'll vastly inflate expenses
nubbins`: "when the ceo of a company makes a stupid mistake, the company pays for it"
nubbins`: not when the ceo makes a mistake on his own time, out of his own pocket, the company doesn't
PeterL: and when the ceo of a company consitently makes mistakes, he gets fired
mircea_popescu: by all means. hence, " and if there's a single icann in the lot with enough actual gumption to put together a hostile takeover package, i'll certainly consider it."
☟︎ mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the way it worked, from the beginning, was that he did the site and i did admin and payouts.
☟︎ nubbins`: asciilifeform kakobrekla is probably wondering what the future holds for him, as he is currently being forced to decide between PGP signing a fraudulent financial statement or losing his livelihood. i envy him not.
nubbins`: sadly, it will be mp's ego that costs him the loss either way
nubbins`: although i guess if s.bbet can break its listing agreement with impunity, it can also stop providing signed financial statements to MPEx with impunity
nubbins`: so it probably won't be delisted
nubbins`: after all, it's more about ego than logic or facts
dooglus: I'm new to this whole bitbet payout mess, but read somewhere that the 'B' transaction was made after receiving advice to do so. Who advised it, and why?
nubbins`: dooglus it would seem that mp did it on his own accord. bitbet is a "zero asset" corporation, and thus doesn't own any capital; there was nowhere for a second 17btc to come from.
nubbins`: at any rate, being a 0a corp, the funds from B weren't bitbet's. regardless of who owned them.
assbot: Logged on 03-03-2016 16:18:56; mircea_popescu: in any case, at the time this was discussed in the logs, the miner priority was in the 9th decile, about 16% of the global mempool.
nubbins`: asciilifeform mp's anger morphed into "this theorem was disproven" in his broken brain
PeterL: there is no spec, they can order transactions in whichever way they want
mircea_popescu: this is a minor point. there are better bits. such as - that an transaction known but not advertised constitutes the simple definition of "transaction withholding".
mircea_popescu: also a minor point, but at least relevant re protocol discussion.
dooglus: because it seems unlikely to be true. A1 had an uncommonly high priority, way over 100 million
PeterL: nubbins` I guess bitbet is not keeping a 100% reserve of bets now?
nubbins`: PeterL A1-A4 had bitbet's inputs. A1-A4 went awol. B had mp's personal inputs.
nubbins`: bitbet keeps a 100% reserve, not a 200% reserve, which is why we know B's inputs had to have been mp's personal funds.
mircea_popescu: initially i thought that "nodes" is a meaningful term, but what i see now is a large ball of node with a bunch of sattelites that have ~ no importance flattering themselves into thinking they're part of a network.
PeterL: so B should not be counted against bitbets funds if it was not bitbet money
nubbins`: asciilifeform when you assume someone has intelligence...
nubbins`: PeterL yes, precisely. section 3.2 (h) of bitbet's listing agreement forbids this.
nubbins`: that's the basis of my as yet unanswered fraud accusation
mircea_popescu: somehow the difference between this and that keeps getting elided.
mircea_popescu: as if everyone's a little bit everything and it all evens out or something, dunno.
mircea_popescu: but in any case, there is a substantial difference between "i think X on the basis of my personal experience" and "mp said x on the basis of bitbet experience as documented on qntra". exactly of the sort and caliber as the difference between "i think there exist alien" and "here's pictures of man walking on the moon", in fact.
☟︎ PeterL: the qntra article is illogical and jumps to the conclusion you want, ignoring the simplest explanation
nubbins`: i wouldn't put too much weight behind mp's bitbet experience
mircea_popescu: PeterL this statement would be a lot less ridiculous had the "simplest explanation" been actually formed as the article even encourages the reader to do!
nubbins`: asciilifeform maybe the captain can just refund the gum and pee for gaskets and coolant, the ship's financial officer OKs it, life goes on, ego bruised but the sub still floating?
nubbins`: we've got all the coolant and gaskets RIGHT HERE
nubbins`: the only reason we'd need to sink is if cappy's too proud to use em
mircea_popescu: but, time's not wasted, go forth and write down your proposed simplest explanation.
nubbins`: PeterL i think he's hinting that text is too hard and he needs an infographic
mircea_popescu: with any luck it'll be something like "miner cartel, what a ridiculous idea - not like the anon derps involved are a) known to be idiots and b) have certain incentive do do exactly this! moreover, the much simpler explanation is that... uh... uh... mp conspiracy! and scam! and fraud! and he doesn't care about bitcoin! and i'm an idiot that'll show him!!11"
nubbins`: ^ as you can see, lots of hand-waving and rhetoric is the best response mp can dig up when under fire
nubbins`: still not a word re: blatant fraud
PeterL: can you not see sturle's comment, seems the most logical to me?
mircea_popescu: we discussed this that same day he made it. plox to check your copy of the logs.
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 02:59:17; mircea_popescu: sturle's theory fell apart upon examination in chan.
nubbins`: no such "falling apart" was witnessed, upon review of the logs by ALL parties present.
nubbins`: what did happen was mp got very upset and the topic changed
PeterL: 0fee txn, nodes hold onto it (but don't rebroadcast), later when backlog is smaller they broadcast it
nubbins`: incredibly simple explanation.
mircea_popescu: congrats, you've formed a theory about a selection of the facts on record.
PeterL: and "the code is the spec", so the spec says first txn see overrides any later (regardless of fees)
nubbins`: ^ this is what you'll get as a response no matter how well thought-out your explanation is
PeterL: which facts does it miss?
mircea_popescu: it also says txn get thrown out of pools after x days.
nubbins`: and you wonder why i have zero interest in "doing up a blog post" or whatever masturbatory navel-gazing bullshit is somehow better than explaining it real-time
PeterL: did you go look into the mempool of every node?
mircea_popescu: i looked into whatever i looked sufficient to satisfy myself.
nubbins`: he sends a special packet and the node dumps its mempool, json format
nubbins`: that way he can tell what transactions other nodes are aware of but are not rebroadcasting
nubbins`: oh, wait, that's fucking retarded
PeterL: it would only take one node holding onto the txn for it to be rebroadcast
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 16:24:11; mircea_popescu: but in any case, there is a substantial difference between "i think X on the basis of my personal experience" and "mp said x on the basis of bitbet experience as documented on qntra". exactly of the sort and caliber as the difference between "i think there exist alien" and "here's pictures of man walking on the moon", in fact.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla it does not tell everyone what "i think", it tells everyone what i saw.
PeterL: and maybe that node was connected when you broadcast the first time, turned off, and reconnected 8 days later, at which point it rebroadcast the txn?
mircea_popescu: but, sure, "experience of that fraction of bitbet that does payouts", is right.
nubbins`: PeterL imagine how high the priority would be on A1 by the time it makes it to the front of the mempool queue
nubbins`: why, it'd instantly be included in a block!
mircea_popescu: also trivially meets the definition of "withholding txn", but w/e.
nubbins`: oh, wait, that lines up with the fucking facts
PeterL: withholding txn, sitting on txn, not the same thing
nubbins`: ;;echo no, it tells everyone what you think you saw, and as we've seen today, what you think you saw couldn't fill a hat.
gribble: no, it tells everyone what you think you saw, and as we've seen today, what you think you saw couldn't fill a hat.
dooglus: maybe that node was connected when you broadcast the first time, turned off, and reconnected 8 days later << or maybe one of the winners of the bet saw he had been paid and rebroadcast A1 so he could get paid again; that seems like the most obvious motivation for rebroadcasting A1
nubbins`: dooglus logic has no place in this discussion
mircea_popescu: ~nobody saw it, somehow, hence questions about bitbet payouts.
nubbins`: you're assuming the bitbet broadcast node is covert.
nubbins`: that's probably a stupid assumption
dooglus: the winners wouldn't have seen A1 vanish after 48h or whatever the mempool lifetime is; for them A1 credits one of their addresses and so it sticks around forever for them
PeterL: A1 you sent out to the world, everybody listening saw it
nubbins`: ^ you have no way of proving that
dooglus: everyone you sent it to saw it. Didn't you broadcast it to ~100 nodes?
PeterL: mircea_popescu you seem to be making some big assumptions and plugging your ears whenever anybody questions them
dooglus: they won't tell you they saw it - it was 0 fee, so won't be relayed to anyone
nubbins`: PeterL that's sort of the way it is
nubbins`: dooglus i've been saying this since the first minute, but he just won't listen
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40962 @ 0.00053446 = 21.8926 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: so far, we're with the assumption that "bettor with incentive was running one or more of the nodes mp connected to".
mircea_popescu: as it isn't, per your theory, the case that "Whole world saw". just the set in question.
nubbins`: ;;echo remove bettor from the statement, it's falsely constricting
gribble: remove bettor from the statement, it's falsely constricting
nubbins`: ^ just to put everyone at ease even though payouts are on indefinite hiatus, here's a 10 btc house bet
nubbins`: yes, that's right, payouts are on indefinite hiatus because paying 9 cents tx fee isn't a solution
dooglus: "bettor" could be replaced by "anyone who wants to fuck MP over" I guess if you want to increase the probability somewhat
mircea_popescu: well... if it's not a bettor then "for them A1 credits one of their addresses and so it sticks around forever for them" doesn't stick anymore.
nubbins`: yeah, how could a non-bettor have a watch-only address in his wallet?
nubbins`: surely he couldn't just add the pubkey.
nubbins`: dooglus if you're wondering, mp ignored me in a fit of rage yesterday
PeterL: so there are what, 23 outputs or so? and it would take just one of them seeing the txn to hold onto it
nubbins`: PeterL one person watching one of the 23 outputs, yes
mircea_popescu: let's move on to the next step. THEN, MP broadcast A2, which HAD a fee. to a non-overlapping set of nodes. the disjunction of the two sets had a perfectly valid txn they... also didn't broadcast, because magic reasons.
nubbins`: except for B, where one of the outputs went back to you because it was your money, not bitbet's
nubbins`: "to a non-overlapping set of nodes" -- aha! he's found an out that he hasn't used yet -- the nodes weren't overlapping now, see?!
PeterL: well, there is probably a large overlap between bettors and people running nodes, since these are people who have an interest in the bitcoin network working so they can get paid
mircea_popescu: by this measure, there's a large overlap between all sorts of things. maybe there is, sure.
nubbins`: large overlap between blatant fraud and mp right now
nubbins`: still no response to allegations!
nubbins`: shareholders of all mpex assets must be shitting
nubbins`: can't simultaneously invent complicated lies and hold a convo
nubbins`: weird, still no signed bitbet statement
nubbins`: hope there's nothing wrong with the financials
dooglus: if A1 and A2 went to non-overlapping sets of nodes then A2 should have been accepted and mined, right?
☟︎ nubbins`: dooglus in the absence of proof, i'd assume that they were sent to the same nodes
PeterL: <mircea_popescu> by this measure, there's a large overlap between all sorts of things. maybe there is, sure. << it only takes one, and I bet and have a node, therefore it might have been me too
nubbins`: hey, i bet and have a node too
nubbins`: maybe we should open a node cartel!
nubbins`: maybe bitbet shouldn't be sending 0-fee transactions when there's a massive mempool backlog!
nubbins`: maybe mp shouldn't have put a personal expenditure on bitbet's books!
PeterL: maybe just never send 0fee txn, because customer payouts should be a priority?
nubbins`: all these maybes, and more, to be left unaddressed -- stay tuned!
dooglus: I suspect that's the client's fault - used to be that high-priority inputs meant you didn't need a fee
nubbins`: PeterL i think it's fairly obvious that customer payouts are zero priority, given the 0-fee payout attempt followed by a payout embargo
PeterL: but how is mircea_popescu going to address the concerns if he ignores the people who raise them?
nubbins`: PeterL i don't think you understand how this place works
nubbins`: mp does not address concerns, flaws, mistakes, or errors. ever.
nubbins`: the hilarity that's ensued today is me proving this to the point of ridiculousness
PeterL: asciilifeform but sending the second txn was pure idiocy, since he had no way of knowing the first would not also be mined
nubbins`: asciilifeform if i send $7,000 cash in the mail, i don't let the post office choose the delivery standard
adlai: nubbins`: couldn't the inputs of B have been from other bets? maybe not how "bettors have come to expect" payouts would work, but not strictly speaking funds which don't belong to s.bbet
☟︎ PeterL: well, either wait for the first transactio
nubbins`: or send another turbo low fee transaction 12 hours later.
nubbins`: while the backlog is still huge.
PeterL: or double spend the outputs (and get a miner to include) before sending txn B
nubbins`: unsusprisingly, nothing happened
nubbins`: if he'd gone straight from A1 to A4 we'd probably all be drinking soda together now
nubbins`: it's not like prompt payouts have ever been a priority
nubbins`: don't make me dig up examples of bets that took a week to resolve
PeterL: but in any case not send txn B until txn A has been resolved
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 16:50:24; adlai: nubbins`: couldn't the inputs of B have been from other bets? maybe not how "bettors have come to expect" payouts would work, but not strictly speaking funds which don't belong to s.bbet
nubbins`: even if it'd worked, he still would have been introducing a private expense to bitbet's books and then paying himself back from A* inputs, which still breaks the listing agreement
davout: were A2, A3, A4 ever published?
☟︎ nubbins`: adlai i don't think that mixing bets like salad paints a prettier picture.
nubbins`: and there's a name for an operation that pays cashouts from more recent takings
nubbins`: it shares many letters with the word pizza
adlai: nubbins`: it does change the picture from "fraud! abdication! blood of tyrants!" to "mp made a mistake when acting as coin-handler for a corporation"
nubbins`: asciilifeform unsurprisingly, it says zilch.
nubbins`: adlai yes, the refusal to admit the mistake is what's constituting the fraud.
nubbins`: as it stands, mp's debt is bitbet's debt.
assbot: The greatly anticipated BitBet (S.BBET) February 2016 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... (
http://bit.ly/1LamWrs )
PeterL: nubbins` payout from inputs is good for transparency, but it would be perfectly legitimate for bitbet to send all funds to one address and then make all payouts from the same address
adlai is fairly certain bitbet has been "mixing bets" for ~ever. isn't this how the whole "bitbet as tumbler" story was supposed to work? ie, the blockchain tells a different story than the addresses listed on the site
nubbins`: Should BitBet fail to execute this Agreement, as for instance by but not limited to breaching 3.2.h above, MPEx will notify the named individuals of their breach and may, at its sole discretion, suspend the asset from trading thus activating the liquidation of the asset.
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 13:36:34; asciilifeform: kakobrekla: except - cartel. go, make a block.
nubbins`: so if mp defrauds bitbet, mpex has the OPTION of liquidating it.
nubbins`: any bets on whether that'll happen?
davout: kakobrekla: pls to do so, i'm looking through my nodes logs to see if and when i heard about them
PeterL: and by the way, how did we jump to the conclusion that the collusion is from "Chinese miners"? (And why is the disclaimer on bitbet so tiny and discreet?)
nubbins`: it's so tiny so people won't stop betting.
nubbins`: and "we" jumped to the conclusion because there's a not-insignificant amount of worry in the ecosystem right now about chinese monopoly, so it's an easy lie to sell
PeterL: kakobrekla is there an estimated timeframe for when bet payouts will resume?
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 16:53:56; davout: were A2, A3, A4 ever published?
nubbins`: go to qntra article and see how long it takes for someone to even MENTION the obvious cheapo explanation
nubbins`: by the time it's raised, you can barely read it for the noise about "bitcoin has been forked"
nubbins`: asciilifeform bush didn't have the smoking gun but he still went to iraq
thestringpuller: nubbins`: "Why is Bush so convinced Iraq has weapons of mass destruction?" Negrodamus: "Because he has the receipt."
davout: asciilifeform: do a double spend, manage to get a conflicting tx mined
nubbins`: so, where do we go from here? we have an mpex listing where the owner's introduced fraudulent expenses and the other owner won't sign the financial statement. the only party who has recourse of any sort is mpex, but of course the conflict of interest involved will preclude mpex from resolving the situation to honest satisfaction
davout: asciilifeform: no, the tx he sent was not conflicting
jurov: asciilifeform: why was he ever sending zerofee tx?
PeterL: nubbins`> go to qntra article and see how long it takes for someone to even MENTION the obvious cheapo explanation << if you look at the timestamps, it was just a couple hours before we started complaining, which was pretty much as soon as I got around to reading the article in question
davout: asciilifeform: it's the "manage to get mined" that's the important bit here
nubbins`: still not enough fee, by his own admission.
nubbins`: so A1 and A2 were bad judgment calls, we can all agree there
kakobrekla: asciilifeform certainly not sign more parallel transactions to same effect and broadcast them like nothing happened
nubbins`: this is like ordering pizza from 2 different shops, eating the one that shows up first, and acting surprised when you see both charged to your credit card
davout: asciilifeform: try harder?
kakobrekla: asciilifeform see the agreed upon solution for future bets payouts
nubbins`: asciilifeform the "what instead" has been stated to be "use a fee of 9 cents" more than once.
nubbins`: maybe 10 cents if you're feeling brave.
nubbins`: most of the users will cry "this place is fucked"
nubbins`: "i have to push my own tx because bitbet can't afford a tx fee"
kakobrekla: i dont think this will be a problem. notice the 'double-check' guy from comments.
nubbins`: seriously. "the stupidest tx ever was slow to propagate, therefore all payouts are suspended"
nubbins`: anyone who supports this gibberish shames themselves
nubbins`: kakobrekla seems like you've got a good understanding of the likelihood of each explanation
nubbins`: turns out "somehow" is "here's how:"
PeterL: does trb do replace by fee?
nubbins`: and a desire to not propagate shit tx's handily explains why A1 was retained but not relayed by nodes, agreed?
kakobrekla: 'replace by fee' is a new thing that has not been ported
PeterL: if trb sees A1 and A2, which does it keep?
PeterL: (A1 is 0fee, A2 has fee, same inputs)
nubbins`: so we can explain why A1 was held for so long before being mined, and we can explain why A2-A4 vanished, and we can explain why mp thought that sending B was a good idea, but we now see that it was simply not a good idea because mp did not understand the payment protocol as well as he thought he did, and now we've got a 17 btc fraudulent expense on bitbet's ledger
BingoBoingo: 'replace by fee' USED to be how double spends were typically resolved by miner implementations
nubbins`: if there are any omissions or corrections to be made to my summation above, now would be the time
PeterL: maybe mircea_popescu can tell us how his own implementation works?
nubbins`: maybe he can defraud bitbet investors too
nubbins`: asciilifeform seems odd behaviour for a wealthy man, no?
nubbins`: especially considering the shitstorm that this egregious fraud has blown up
nubbins`: maybe he needs a loan. hanbot seems like she buys lots of stuff
PeterL: asciilifeform I was suprised when he decided to stick it onto bitbet's books
nubbins`: i guess we should put his lordship to a vote in a few days if he hasn't resolved things satisfactorily
nubbins`: TMSR~ can't afford to harbour scammers or fraudsters
PeterL: If I send a txn to the addresses listed on a bitbet page, will that expense be put on the bitbet books too?
nubbins`: i'm afraid your metaphor escapes me
nubbins`: PeterL only if you own 25% of the shares
PeterL: asciilifeform a scammer drill? to see if we call out an negrate scammers in a timely fasion?
nubbins`: oh, that type of drill, not a power tool
PeterL: and if we blindly follow him then he knows we are all derps?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50243 @ 0.00053577 = 26.9187 BTC [+] {2}
nubbins`: PeterL i don't know how much of the logs you've read, but it's mostly derps
assbot: Logged on 05-03-2016 22:35:15; asciilifeform: except i admit that i only expected 'this' to happen after cia murdered mircea_popescu and took his coin...
nubbins`: i could count the individuals i'd consider intellectual peers on one hand
PeterL: it's mostly mircea_popescu and asciilifeform bickering back and forth?
nubbins`: they don't bicker much, and alf's a smart guy
nubbins`: but by and large, this place is an intellectual wasteland
nubbins`: take the situation of poor bitcoinpete: his underwear probably smells like mp's dick
nubbins`: a less-loquacious parrot regurgitating half-understood conceits
PeterL: are Canadians allowed to talk about each other so impolitely?
nubbins`: or mod6, by all accounts a great guy, head of TRB, almost quit in the first week because he couldn't get a gentoo install up and running.
PeterL: each of us have our warts
nubbins`: yep. and a quick "you got it buddy" to mod6 and "you're really good at typing things up, you're wasting your talents at the loading bay" to dpb and you've got two more sets of undies smelling like mp's dick
trinque: I don't get these shots at mod6; he wrote up a fine guide to building a gentoo...
nubbins`: didn't even have to pay bingo to stick around, just bought him a domain and some text-only
nubbins`: trinque not a shot, merely stating facts
nubbins`: asciilifeform i waited until adulthood to start raising hell, nobody listens to kids. but i smell a story coming
PeterL: figure out which way they are running, jump in front and say "this way, boys!"?
nubbins`: asciilifeform i'll venture a guess that it's the same way mp trains derps to stick around and parrot the party line
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21298 @ 0.00053763 = 11.4504 BTC [+] {2}
nubbins`: put some wet food on the other side of the hoop and dole out a few head scratches
nubbins`: asciilifeform agreed which is why i think pete annoys me so much
nubbins`: like a small child holding a hot wheels shouting "vroom!"
nubbins`: asciilifeform if we're calling spades spades, i think he's a piece of shit, but one has to wonder what weight MY opinion holds in such matters
nubbins`: don't conflate strong feelings with rage, i'm having a great day :)
nubbins`: as to why, i find his worldview repulsive
nubbins`: fwiw, i also think mp is a piece of shit, but it was easy enough to idle in here and fleece some money out of him now and again. that time's obviously passed since all of his ventures are either spinning wheels or outright fraud shops
nubbins`: of course, one can converse with pieces of shit just fine, and even occasionally work together on common goals
nubbins`: but when the shit turns sour and starts liquefying and spreading around, well, it'd be remiss of me to not try to contain it
nubbins`: because the gold crowns are really heavy?
nubbins`: what i was saying is that i came here and stuck around to make money
nubbins`: i'm not here to make friends and brown-nose some random dude
nubbins`: i'm here to get paid and call bullshit
nubbins`: and mp is spraying bullshit like a fountain
assbot: Logged on 10-02-2016 17:08:22; mircea_popescu: alowing the possibility that this scam is actually worth taking seriously costs the people who follow what i say whatever it may cost them.
nubbins`: he can't simply admit his unquestioned fraud?
nubbins`: strange temple you've built here, stan
nubbins`: you're the one saying he can't just say oops
nubbins`: of fucking course he can. what planet is this?
nubbins`: "sorry guise, turns out, as you ALL KNOW, i made a mistake that would be interpreted as fraud if it stands"
nubbins`: i can't tell if you're advocating letting the fraud stand as the only sensible option
nubbins`: he's probably too busy worrying about bitbet vanishing
nubbins`: put his job on the line and see if he worries
nubbins`: bitbet is a scam site if this stands, unequivocally. i dare you to declare otherwise, and if you so choose, please PGP sign it for us all
nubbins`: what's the upper bound on the amount of time you'll wait?
nubbins`: you can't leave it open-ended, that's just not gonna fly
nubbins`: pick a timeframe and we'll see
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7032 @ 0.00053633 = 3.7715 BTC [-] {2}
nubbins`: wanna give him a month? next bitbet statement should be out by then
nubbins`: and if that statement doesn't cover march AND february, then s.bbet has failed reporting requirements as per mpex regs
nubbins`: currently, no signed financial statement for feb 2016 exists
nubbins`: 1-month absences are allowed if the missed statement is rolled into the next
nubbins`: yours didn't have a $7,000 private spending spree on the books
nubbins`: asciilifeform looks all A-OK to me
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: Are you familiar with the Dark Knight Returns?
nubbins`: asciilifeform if you'll recall, i'm unable to ask mp because he has me on ignore; i've asked him via gribble ;;echo but he has deigned not to respond, save only through his girlfriend, who had nothing sensible to say
nubbins`: asciilifeform thanks, it's refreshing to learn that at least one other person present is able to obtain information from words that have not been packaged up into a "blog post"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35400 @ 0.00053446 = 18.9199 BTC [-] {2}
nubbins`: just as long as we're all on the same page here that the 17 btc is fraudulent and mp is refusing to admit his fraud, i don't really have anything else to add, aside from shredding the ridiculous rebuttals put forth so far
nubbins`: kakobrekla do you think you could make the "PAYOUTS CANCELLED FOREVER" text a bit smaller? it's taking over the whole page
shinohai waves at #b-a from his hot air balloon powered by todays logs.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33792 @ 0.00053402 = 18.0456 BTC [-] {3}
nubbins`: i can't see bitbet staying around as a going concern if mp doesn't eat crow
nubbins`: seriously: outstanding bets that are in the system RIGHT NOW will be heading to mp's pocket later, to pay him back for his personal loss
nubbins`: why the fuck would you use such a site?
nubbins`: kakobrekla is gonna be pissed when he realizes that under mp's proposed terms, kako doesn't see a dime of dividend payouts until mp is made whole again
nubbins`: even hanbot must be ashamed of him
PeterL: anybody want to guess as to whether one of the winning bets on the JebBush bet was owned by mircea_popescu? who got the extra 7btc payment?
nubbins`: nah, although i think it's fairly boilerplate that if there's x to be made by betting y on a late bet, it happens
nubbins`: rubes wouldn't normally wager 7 btc to earn 0.4, but if you hold the keys, it's less of a gamble
PeterL: yes, large late bets are common, but it could be mp doing it
assbot: BitBet - S.MG above 2x par on October 1st, 2014 :: 1.18 B (8%) on Yes, 14.07 B (92%) on No | closed 1 year 5 months ago ... (
http://bit.ly/1LarJZV )
nubbins`: i should make a bet, "mp will attempt once more to remove nubs from lordship list by march 9"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22496 @ 0.00053357 = 12.0032 BTC [-]
nubbins`: mpoe sinking like a stone since mp falsely claimed a chinese cartel fork
nubbins`: guess investors finally had enough crazy
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25804 @ 0.00053357 = 13.7682 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20550 @ 0.00053357 = 10.9649 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58100 @ 0.00053342 = 30.9917 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4600 @ 0.00053332 = 2.4533 BTC [-]
jurov: !rate nubbins` 2 voice of sanity
jurov: !v assbot:jurov.rate.nubbins`.2:e0d6b842084c5b88117ec108fc92582260506c5b83c14a923a960458fb9655fb
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 2 for nubbins` with note: voice of sanity
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4700 @ 0.00053357 = 2.5078 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30807 @ 0.00053357 = 16.4377 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21600 @ 0.00053357 = 11.5251 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3023 @ 0.00053332 = 1.6122 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50129 @ 0.00053332 = 26.7348 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44783 @ 0.00053329 = 23.8823 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40600 @ 0.00053357 = 21.6629 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3200 @ 0.00053357 = 1.7074 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 16:12:01; mircea_popescu: PeterL when the ceo of a company makes a stupid mistake, the company pays for it. there are exactly no exceptions to this rule, nor will there ever be. morever, even when what the ceo does isn't a stupid mistake, the shareholders still pay for it.
nubbins`: there is, however, a thing in the bbet listing about not putting private expenses on the books.
nubbins`: a private expense being, e.g., mp spending his own money out of free will
nubbins`: that's taking new funds to pay off an old debt
jurov: i'm rather curious if the point 3.2d was fullfilled, i.e. kakobrekla agreed with whole crapolade
nubbins`: asciilifeform B was money for another bet payout -- from what will B's winners be paid? C?
nubbins`: jurov iirc no; let me find link
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 16:31:53; kakobrekla:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-03-2016#1424891 < this is not so. it was not bitbet experience (for example i was not even aware of any of it) and publishing your interpretation on qntra does not assert absolute truth, it just tells everyone who reads it what you think.
jurov: well, we have breach of conract then
nubbins`: unfortunately, in the case of breach of contract:
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 16:13:55; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the way it worked, from the beginning, was that he did the site and i did admin and payouts.
nubbins`: 4.3. Should BitBet fail to execute this Agreement, as for instance by but not limited to breaching 3.2.h above, MPEx will notify the named individuals of their breach and may, at its sole discretion, suspend the asset from trading thus activating the liquidation of the asset.
nubbins`: ,"may", "at its sole discretion" do nothing, also
nubbins`: asciilifeform then the listing agreement is extremely poorly written
kakobrekla: asciilifeform things of far lesser importance were normally discussed by 'the board'.
jurov: but i wouldn't call it ponzi, at least till bitbet has equity
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform>with whatever was in reach. << madoff was putting out fires with whatever was in reach, too
nubbins`: nothing noble in the act, in and of itself
nubbins`: jurov i wouldn't either; i don't believe B was from another bet
nubbins`: ponzi is the alternative explanation, if B was not mp's funds but was funds from another bet
nubbins`: so your choices are ponzi or fraud, served with a side of breached contract
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36014 @ 0.00053448 = 19.2488 BTC [+] {4}
nubbins`: my guess is fraud; alf's suggestion that B was nipped from another bet is suggesing ponzi
nubbins`: but i don't think this is necessarily alf's position
nubbins`: oh, me too. i'm not sympathetic to children playing at adult games tho
nubbins`: "their money, my money, whatever"
jurov: stfu you redditor!!11
nubbins`: that was mp's strongest rebuttal
nubbins` is still curious how kako feels about being denied his dividends until mp gets 17btc worth
nubbins`: that's gonna take like a year or two, man
nubbins`: i guess the plan was for mp to bail it out and trawl the divs for x months
nubbins`: he could've picked a better month to try it
nubbins`: also seems a fairly retarded way to run a business, now that this has happened
nubbins`: just think: if bitbet had socked away the 10btc that the random dude said it stole from him, there'd only be a 7 btc fraudulent expense on the books
nubbins`: i resent the implication that i haven't been
nubbins`: you're not passing this off as being principled
nubbins`: why would judas rat out his buddy?
nubbins`: which is why it's insane that he didn't shrug off the loss
nubbins`: and instead chose to breach a contract
nubbins`: egregiously and unapologetically
nubbins`: oh, so he didn't know it was broken before this?
nubbins`: hadn't taken a look at the rat's nest?
nubbins`: in fact, he pushed out A1 knowing precisely the spaghetti-mess it was being pushed into
nubbins`: ten american cents would have effortlessly done the job
nubbins`: fuck everybody, i am mp. a 0-fee tx "should" work in my ideal utopia, so it's everyone else's fault if something weird happens
nubbins`: asciilifeform guy said himself A1, A2 should never have worked.
nubbins`: didn't give a fuck, tried em anyway
nubbins`: did he send it from his windows box?
nubbins`: "the default settings should be good enough, even though an iota of thought would reveal that they're not"
nubbins`: so you're blaming the black box?
kakobrekla: its not only that chair broke. he deliberately sat on it again (more precisely sat bitbet on it) after he noticed it was broken.
nubbins`: if the chair accepted fees to better ensure my ass stayed sat, yes, i'd examine the chair very carefully when sitting for free.
nubbins`: or, y'know, just pay the chair a reasonable fee
nubbins`: back to the analogy drawing board
nubbins`: kakobrekla he sat bitbet on it, then broke his own chair too, then billed bitbet for two chairs
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> nubbins` carefully inspects his chair every day before he sits down in it ? << This is inspiring a yard project. I have a tall yet narrow tree to take down. Will make a tree stake before gone forever!
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: Nah, just craft project. Not film project
danielpbarron: maybe the 17 btc should be donated to bbet by s.nsa? If indeed the whole point was to make a point about the brokenness of bitcoin.
BingoBoingo may have to make the jump to power tools. Crosscut saw has given arm a beating.
nubbins`: danielpbarron hahaha now we're thinking outside the box
nubbins`: asciilifeform i think it's clear that the shareholders are happy eating salted shit
jurov: asciilifeform: i do check the mempol stats before sending small tx
jurov: and ALWAYS add at least 0.00001,
danielpbarron: heh i'm a shareholder of both, although not a very big one. full disclosure : i have more invested in bbet than nsa
nubbins`: asciilifeform and his suggestion provoked a hearty lel from me
nubbins`: for its novelty as well as its impropriety
nubbins`: jurov i've never sent a 0-fee tx
jurov: i have mostly (and painfully) divested from s.nsa, but think two wrongs does not make right
jurov: (i.e. taking from s.nsa money for something it was not involved with at all)
nubbins`: i don't think anyone's seriously floating that as a solution
nubbins`: in fact, the only rational exit is for the 17 to come out of mp's couch cushions
danielpbarron: just seems like more of an nsa themed thing, but I'm no expert in these matters and I'm not married to the idea
nubbins`: danielpbarron you're assuming this was not borne of incompetence
nubbins`: bitbet got washed at a red by mp
danielpbarron: i'm not saying you haven't made some sound points nubbins` , but I trust Mircea more than I trust you, and that's that.
nubbins`: danielpbarron as is your perogative; however, in a battle of trust vs facts, i'd rather stick with facts
punkman: was this even the first time bbet double paid?
nubbins`: speaking as a man of no religion, you understand.
nubbins`: everyone's slice is buttered differently
trinque: I butter mine on both, use as a transportation device
nubbins`: cool, do you get on the bread, drop it on the floor, and thusly get the fuck out?
jurov: asciilifeform: lol 'war room', do you remember he did accounting mistakes wrt bitbet divs almost every month?
jurov: and we all know discussing what mp should and should not do is in vain, but he's not alone in there. i'm looking forward to see how kakobrekla follows with this
danielpbarron: as to whether the listing agreement was violated, I hope for the sake of myself and other shareholders that bbet isn't liquidated at the specified price of 0.00001 btc per share
trinque: nubbins`: you have an embarassing habit of throwing jabs at everyone in a room when you have a problem with one
nubbins`: trinque take one on the chin, why don't ya
nubbins`: accounting mistakes wrt bitbet divs almost every month? << iirc there was an s.mg that had an error around my stock warrant too
nubbins`: wow, he called me a shoemaker as an insult earlier
jurov: better than shoe polisher at any rate
danielpbarron: well i don't masquerade as a finance expert while making my shoes..
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 03:01:31; mircea_popescu: !rate nubbins` -1 more or less shoemaker insistent on derping above the crepidam.
nubbins`: danielpbarron this isn't expert finance, my buddy
nubbins`: mp shrugged too, sux for everyone i guess
danielpbarron: i'm baking an article about this for my blog, fwiw
davout: oh god, such mega-drama
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 15:34:51; dooglus: see main.cpp: int nLimit = 500 /* + locator.GetDistanceBack() */ ;
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 15:47:24; mircea_popescu: it just turned a mild magic number ("get all the headers no less than 2000) into a fucking protocol limit. "only get 2k". this is utter nonsense.
dooglus: I saw MP's "a cartel of Bitcoin miners is deliberately and systematically withholding blocks for an interval of about 20 minutes to a half hour" and was sceptical
dooglus: then remembered prb's 0.12 release writes the current block height into the locktime of transactions it creates
dooglus: weird distribution of current block heights there
nubbins`: and everyone else is who relays tx's
nubbins`: he baked his fucking betting website
dooglus: most people don't use prb - most transactions don't have a non-zero locktime - but lots do
nubbins`: BingoBoingo how do / can i submit a qntra piece?
nubbins`: it would be remiss for readers to miss out on a summation of this action
dooglus: many other transactions in that block *do* have block heights baked into them
assbot: BitBet - Bitcoin main net block size to increase before July 2016 :: 3 B (58%) on Yes, 2.18 B (42%) on No | closing in 2 months 3 weeks | weight: 40`287 (100`000 to 2`000) ... (
http://bit.ly/1U0ctRQ )
dooglus: right. the majority of txs which do have a height baked in were created 10 blocks before that block
pete_dushenski: re links : number of txen, fees, hash, merkle root match - size of block and number of coins transacted do not match
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: dunno if this is a common occurrence, just noticed it because it was raised in bb comment.
pete_dushenski: i haven't the patience to compare every listed tx. perhaps someone else has script or program for this
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59550 @ 0.00053315 = 31.7491 BTC [-] {4}
dooglus: pete_dushenski: that block is 999962 bytes long, which is 976.5254 * 1024 - so that's the discrepancy
dooglus: echo $((($(bitcoind getblock $(bitcoind getblockhash 401585) false | wc -c) - 1) / 2))
pete_dushenski: so bc.info suddenly forgot that there are 1024 bytes in a kb, like the girl who thinks that her 3 months old son is '12 weeks old' ?
dooglus: they also think kB is spelled with a capital K. whenever blockchain.info disagrees with another block explorer, it's wrong
nubbins`: pete_dushenski no hard feelings, i swear!
nubbins`: okay, pretty sure this qntra submission conforms to standard
nubbins`: BingoBoingo what's next?! signed & ready to go
nubbins`: dooglus kibi/mibi/gibi has been the bane of many
nubbins`: FWIW, this is why "1 terabyte = 1,000,000,000,000 bytes"
nubbins` always chalked it up to americans not using the metric system, in which kilo is 1000 by definition
nubbins`: fwiw, the "bi" is short for "binary", because -- yep, you guessed it -- 1024 is a tidy 2^10
nubbins`: abusing SI prefixes is honest?
nubbins`: no metric unit is 1024 anything
danielpbarron: nubbins`> BingoBoingo what's next?! signed & ready to go << link the signed encrypted thing as a text file (on dpaste or your own site) in a later tell to Bingo
pete_dushenski: nubbins`: lol is 'piece of shit' a term of endearment on your end of the globe ? i have a hard time keeping track of all the different culture nuances in this vast and expansive country of ours
danielpbarron: make sure it's encrypted and not just signed.. otherwise the web crawlers get to read it first
dooglus: pete_dushenski: yeah, but what does it mean?
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform>because those who stopped, stopped so that they could scam consumers. << two wrongs make not a right
nubbins`: [18:26:01] <+nubbins`>pete_dushenski no hard feelings, i swear!
BingoBoingo: <nubbins`> BingoBoingo how do / can i submit a qntra piece? << sign/encrypt a document and pass it to me somehow
nubbins`: tyvm, please see pm from gribble
nubbins`: BingoBoingo LMK if you plan to not publish
BingoBoingo: nubbins`: will let you know, but it seems rather long
nubbins`: succinctness is not my strong point
nubbins`: breaking news, buddy. your loss
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 113593 @ 0.00053404 = 60.6632 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34008 @ 0.00053225 = 18.1008 BTC [-] {3}
davout: dooglus: any interpretation for the data you posted? i fail to see anything meaningful to conclude from it
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55350 @ 0.00053615 = 29.6759 BTC [+] {3}
davout: curious why you'd say "that's a weird distribution - 70 transactions were made when block 400728 was the current block, and only 16 were made at a later point in time" when the majority of the referenced transactions have a 0 locktime
davout: am i missing something ?
nubbins`: also, FWIW, S.BBET has officially missed the Feb 5th deadline for publishing a (signed) feb 2016 statement.
nubbins`: according to the listing agreement (3.2 (g)), this can only happen once per year, and it's march 7th
nubbins`: seems early to be using your lifeline
nubbins`: guess it took a couple days to work up the courage to introduce that private expense
nubbins`: unfortunately, by the logic of the listing agreement, feb 2016 statement is null and void no matter if kako signs or not
nubbins`: better luck next month with the feb+march statement
nubbins`: asciilifeform i haven't read over s.nsa listing agreement in depth
nubbins`: dude, it even says "solemnly promise and warrant".
nubbins`: idgaf if they're published or not, but:
nubbins`: The representatives of BitBet solemnly promise and warrant that complete and accurate Revenue and Net Revenue statements for each calendar month will be published by them no later than by the fifth day of the new month.
nubbins`: instead, we have an incomplete, unsigned, inaccurate statement published on the 7th
nubbins`: again, doesn't affect me, just saying. pretty cavalier.
nubbins`: thestringpuller homework for ya
nubbins`: no kidding, i can only fit one broken contract in my head at a time
nubbins`: i've made promises that are more thorough than this thing
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48350 @ 0.00053629 = 25.9296 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55800 @ 0.00053104 = 29.632 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19300 @ 0.00053067 = 10.2419 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: "El fiscal Alberto Nisman volvió a ocupar el centro de la escena. La investigación sobre su muerte está tomando una orientación, cuyo desenlace se puede prever: Nisman fue víctima de un asesinato en el que participó el gobierno de Cristina Kirchner, en combinación con agentes iraníes."
mircea_popescu: looking for the low down on argentina ? read it in qntra today, or in the argentinian mass media a week later.
mircea_popescu:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-03-2016#1425011 << they should have been. except if the "non overlapping" sets of miners DO in fact overlap, in the sense of being merely meaningless facades of the same one thing, in which case they wouldn't necessarily know that they can be trivially fingerprinted by the symptom of "hey, apparently they know about a txn they shouldn't know about".
☝︎ assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 16:45:54; dooglus: if A1 and A2 went to non-overlapping sets of nodes then A2 should have been accepted and mined, right?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is there anything more than random derp of tenuous association with b-a has a total meltdown when he realises that b-a is not fiat, the republic not a democracy and i don't give a shit about "people themselves" ?
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 16:47:14; PeterL: so maybe it was you!
mircea_popescu: you just don't know enough about this sort of thing to find this out.
nubbins`: told ya he was just gonna carry on like nothing's happened
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suppose there's nodes N1... Nn advertising themselves on the network. suppose you send txn X to all nodes Nk where k is divisible by 2, which has the properties that a) it would not be broadcast to any further nodes, and b) it would prevent transaction Y from being accepted in the mempool. suppose you verify that nodes Nk where k = 2i do not in fact advertise X. suppose you broadcast Y to nodes Nm where m
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: =2i+1. suppose you verify that nodes Nm do not advertise Y. is this proof sufficient to you that nodes N1... Nn is a charade, and they are all node N ?
nubbins`: no need to defend my character, just note that the attack is ad hominem and not addressing any of the various logical fallacies projected by the attacker
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i seem to recall he failed both tests for continued lordship and was basically not on the list of names to be cleared because he asked not to be.
assbot: Logged on 10-02-2016 02:24:16; nubbins`: speak now if you believe a lord that has contributed TRB patches, who owns the second-largest s.mg stock warrant, who trades in the only physical collectibles that are priced solely in BTC, who pays the bill for eulora.org, who is the republic's de facto minister of letters awaiting with bated quill the whittling-down of a codebase fit to publish, should be stripped of his title; speak your treason now, th
nubbins`: nope, nickserv would not allow
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 22:49:27; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suppose there's nodes N1... Nn advertising themselves on the network. suppose you send txn X to all nodes Nk where k is divisible by 2, which has the properties that a) it would not be broadcast to any further nodes, and b) it would prevent transaction Y from being accepted in the mempool. suppose you verify that nodes Nk where k = 2i do not in fact advertise X. suppose you broadcast Y
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 22:49:27; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform suppose there's nodes N1... Nn advertising themselves on the network. suppose you send txn X to all nodes Nk where k is divisible by 2, which has the properties that a) it would not be broadcast to any further nodes, and b) it would prevent transaction Y from being accepted in the mempool. suppose you verify that nodes Nk where k = 2i do not in fact advertise X. suppose you broadcast Y
mircea_popescu: and so no, one who things "well there's nodes, so it's a p2p network" is utterly flattering himself. no such thing in bitcoin. there's a supernode, and a bunch of whatevers.
nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu>asciilifeform i seem to recall he failed both tests for continued lordship and was basically not on the list of names to be cleared because he asked not to be. << memory failing you once again
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 22:52:54; mircea_popescu: myeah.
mircea_popescu: the chief problem with trying to communicate things is that there's always going to be a set of idiots / lazy thinkers who want a specific outcome out of the conversation, and then proceed to parasitize it with their half-assed sententious bullshit.
mircea_popescu: anyway. to my eyes this is specifically and precisely said in the qntra piece, but w/e, more passes never hurt anyone, i guess. except if the passes are beatings or something.
mircea_popescu: let's just say that i lifted the rock and i saw every type of heresy in there.
nubbins`: asciilifeform he spent all afternoon "napping" by throwing together some maths and deciding to switch stories
mircea_popescu: which yes, on the sheer strength of the abundance and precision, "dang, this better be a nightmare"
nubbins`: i guffaw loudly at the continued refusal to discuss 17 btc bitbet fraud
nubbins`: suppose i run two nodes, one a member of Nk and one a member of Nm. As long as my nodes are running proper sanity checks on each other (i.e. passing tx's between them), which obviously they should be because i'm not running SPV nodes, mp's "mathematical" argument falls apart at the seams
nubbins`: numbers aren't your strong suit, maybe stick to doing the dark andreas antonolololopous schtick, it's what you're good at
davout: asciilifeform: i don't see how one could conclusively assert that A1 has not been relayed by the node one originally broadcast it to
nubbins`: because two entities control most of the mining, and it's absolutely retarded for those same entities to not have a similar amount of control over nodes?
mircea_popescu: anyway, if anyone had anythong intelligent to say that got buried in the spew, feel free to restate. i'm not wading through that pile of idiocy.
nubbins`: stating an argument once is insufficient
mircea_popescu: davout because one can connect to it again and see what it says.
nubbins`: you must then write a blog post
davout: asciilifeform: a transaction being relayed does not imply it will be mined by anyone
davout: asciilifeform: i have nfi, but absence of proof isn't proof of absence
nubbins`: i also flatly disbelieve that mp sent A2, A..n to completely different nodes, because it's extremely, extremely relevant and didn't come out until his original argument shit the bed
nubbins`: which by that time he'd been accused of thieving 17 btc
mircea_popescu: a statement of fact is a statement of fact. it only becomes a proof if used in a reasoning. a fact and a proof are very different items : one's a realia, the other ideal.
nubbins`: and generally royally fucking up
nubbins`: so, no, there's no Nm set of nodes.
davout: ftr i checked my own logs, and what they say is that my node heard about A1 around march 1st
mircea_popescu: its sudden appearance was discussed in these very logs - even for that brief interval before it made it into a block.
davout: now, i'm quite curious to actually see A2...4 with my own eyes, and check those too
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is obviously always possible. except it'd be bitbet, raqther than mp. i've been otherwise unmolested throughout.
dooglus: davout: curious why you'd say "that's a weird distribution << when mining block N, I have my pick of all the transactions broadcast while block N-1 was the newest block. some of those will have decent fees. transactions broadcast while block N-10 was the newest block that haven't already been mined are probably not very attractive to mine now. so why is block N including so many transactions created 10 blocks ago and so few created 1 block ag
nubbins`: the most plausible scenario i can think of is that, like dooglus concurred, a shit-fee tx took forever and then got relayed
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no argument. in which it becomes entirely a bitbet's swamp, which bitbet has to drain.
davout: mircea_popescu: i like to check stuff, maybe there's stuff to learn if i find out they somehow were relayed to my nodes at some point
mircea_popescu: i'm willing, on general goodwill, to help. i am certainly not willing to underwrite an open ended personal support for some venture i happen to manage.
mircea_popescu: it is unclear what the help'd be at the present time, however. i see exactly no signs of any of the observed behaviours discussed in teh qntra piece anymore.
mircea_popescu: but, generally speaking, sybil testing on purported bitcoin nodes are a good idea, especially if carried out in secret and uncoordinatedly.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how does a transaction that shouldn't even be relayed GET relayed, and then mined, in short order ?
mircea_popescu: davout> asciilifeform: a transaction being relayed does not imply it will be mined by anyone << especially a 0fee one.
mircea_popescu: it is an intricate discussion, and one i'm unwillingto carry in the full detail, but on the basis of what i have seen, it is my considered opinion that at the time in discussion, the miner cartel was running a ~half hour block delay thing.
mircea_popescu: and they put it in, at the ~same second they "broadcast" it to the hanger-on nodes.
nubbins`: "one i'm unwillingto carry in the full detail" lololol.
davout: dooglus: so in other words: block witholding
mircea_popescu: i also said as much at that exact time, in this very chan.
mircea_popescu: and there are VERY GOOD game theoretic reasons for a miner cartel to do this.
mircea_popescu: specifically because it allows them the only possible moat against competition
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform when you say "it is not supported", what do you mean ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16477 @ 0.00053067 = 8.7438 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: specifically the "sudden mining of an old 0fee tx" ? how ?
mircea_popescu: "pet miner". if pet miner has 1% of hash, the observed phenomena occur 1% of cases.
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 23:07:12; mircea_popescu: but, generally speaking, sybil testing on purported bitcoin nodes are a good idea, especially if carried out in secret and uncoordinatedly.
nubbins`: shoulda been watching the mempool size when you pushed out a 0-fee
nubbins`: !rate mircea_popescu -1 basic scammer, no accountability
mircea_popescu: but anyway, yes, if you believe 1 in 100, they yes, you don't need cartel, just persistent miner.
nubbins`: !v assbot:nubbins`.rate.mircea_popescu.-1:dbed451e84f3cd09d7ae986fa83201a1562d21d299af2619c70317009d6f5c28
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mircea_popescu from -1 to -1 with note: basic scammer, no accountability
nubbins`: right, yes, much less succinct
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform by this logic tho, are there also 99 bitcoins we don't know about ? 99 linuxen ? 99 gccs that statically link ?
nubbins`: the other one said something about "petulant and unwilling to admit error in the face of overwhelming evidence"
davout: thinking about it, I interpret the fact that A1 did not (on first attempt) get relayed to my node as indicative of nodes *not* being merely facades for some sort of 'super-node'
nubbins`: davout all it takes is a default setting of relayshitzerofeetransactions=FALSE
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know, and we for whatever reasons just see the 1 in 100 gunshot.
davout: mircea_popescu: if everyone's actually the same node, broadcasting to one node is actually broadcasting to everyone, and it follows that it should have relayed properly. I guess it can also be the sign of your connections all actually being to the same sybilling node
davout: nubbins`: for the tx not to relay at all it has to be 'false' for everyone
mircea_popescu: davout i don't think you take my meaning. the situation that you imagine is, "hey, whatever, summertime and a bunch of us are at the beach". the situation in reality is, "a moroccan clan and some fat frenchies at the beach". guess how likely you are to a) find out the price of dried fruit and b) find out that you aren't finding out the price of dried fruit.
mircea_popescu: or if you prefer, see phf's example with "my friend, the kgb agent"
nubbins`: or, if you prefer, here's some gibberish in lieu of content
nubbins`: ;;echo but where does that leave the 17 btc of your own funds that you put on bitbet's liability sheet?
gribble: but where does that leave the 17 btc of your own funds that you put on bitbet's liability sheet?
mircea_popescu: you think you're running a node, because, symptomatically, in the windows definition of running code (hey, click items till it works) you are. but the sense of running code contemplated for bitcoin is negative, not positive, and you don't know how to check for that nor do you specifically care.
☟︎ nubbins`: ;;echo omg you guize i think he's actually just gonna pretend he hasn't defrauded bitbet and breached two sections of the contract
gribble: omg you guize i think he's actually just gonna pretend he hasn't defrauded bitbet and breached two sections of the contract
davout: asciilifeform: it might also very well be that most nodes use similar relay policies and that A1 simply didn't satisfy the relaying rules
mircea_popescu: anyway, i've been thinking about your theory ever since, but i don't credit it asciilifeform. for one thing, it's unstable. seriously, supernode and miniminer ? it'd get torn apart.
mircea_popescu: back in the day bitcoin mining was healthy, after a fashion, pools came and went. they've been stable for a long time now.
mircea_popescu: because the other miners would have an incentive to destroy the miniminer's supernode, and there's jackl the miniminer could do to protect it.
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform>davout: if it did not satisfy relaying rules, WHERE DID IT COME FROM on day x !? << once the backlog was cleared, it satisfied relaying rules once again?
mircea_popescu: i'm not saying what you're saying is provably impossible. i am saying to my eyes - it is very improbable.
davout: asciilifeform: i do not claim I know where it came from, but do note that 'not being relayed by most nodes' is absolutely not conflicting with 'some dude rebroadcast it because he felt like it'
mircea_popescu: but i dunno how to carry that particular discussion in a way that'd dispose.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 171492 @ 0.00053048 = 90.9731 BTC [-] {5}
mircea_popescu: it is also the first time i've seeing you err on THIS side ever before.
nubbins`: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 171492 @ 0.00053048 = 90.9731 BTC [-] {5} man, i think my zinger triggered that one
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 23:20:09; mircea_popescu: you think you're running a node, because, symptomatically, in the windows definition of running code (hey, click items till it works) you are. but the sense of running code contemplated for bitcoin is negative, not positive, and you don't know how to check for that nor do you specifically care.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: my telescope, in it being man made not god given, is not much more than a tool.
mircea_popescu: davout that's what i mean by positive. yes, "it works".
mircea_popescu: this is very different from the negative, "it doesn't not work".
davout: mircea_popescu: well, it also "doesn't not work" in the sense that I sometimes have got transactions stuck because I'm a cheap zero-fee jew, that I got unstuck by issuing a double-spend
davout: now i'm unsure how to further go into negative bitcoin definition
nubbins`: i'll leave you guys to your non-reality-based distractions, feel free to ping me if mp decides to address his fraud in any fashion.
mircea_popescu: davout i don't mean it as an attack or anything. and the question of exploring the negative is open now and will remain open until spec.
nubbins`: asciilifeform i still need your mailing address
nubbins`: hey, at least you didn't commit fraud
davout: nubbins`: absence of proof isn't proof of absence yo
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform even so, i don't think banning sybil reduces to "unable to talk to white devils".
mircea_popescu: i've encountered to signs of this animal, and this is such an unlikely event if there were a battle even ?
mircea_popescu: in any case : some degree of proxying is absolutely unavoidable in bitcoin relay , because ... ddos.
mircea_popescu: well yeah, had we had the pogos deployed last year or somesuch this might have been a very different story.
mircea_popescu: but... no pogos. because no static linking in gcc. because etc.
mircea_popescu: re prev point : so yeah, most strong nodes will have multiple interfaces they look at. so most people (who know, as opposed of feeling like they know) aren't necessariyl surprised by ~some degree~ of sybiling.
mircea_popescu: which is what everyone (at least previously) told himself is happening to go to bed and not wake screaming
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm sure nubbins` will be done derping idly, dump the ugly broad, get the fuck out of the meaningless paper products shuffling, get back in math school and generally make himself useful. any day now.
mircea_popescu: looking forward to the nubbins 1g box so he can be a lord on his own merit for once.
cazalla: now this is podracing! nice logs
cazalla: it's a me me pete_dushenski
mircea_popescu: curious how long before alf buys one of those self-driving cars so he can irc while he idles.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2543 @ 0.00053211 = 1.3532 BTC [+] {2}
cazalla: nfi, have not watched many of the more recent seasons
cazalla: don't recall that one in anycase
nubbins`: "dump the ugly broad" is the best popescu can come up with as a rebuttal to legitimate accusations of fraud
nubbins`: here's a quip for you, ya fuckin idiot
nubbins`: [12:27:57] <nubbins`>look: true or false: mp is fraudulently entering 17btc into bitbet's liabilities
☟︎ nubbins`: [12:28:23] <kakobrekla>i am not arguing that.
☟︎ nubbins`: sigh as loud as you want, he's not gonna read it or respond to it in any way
nubbins`: always was shady, always was more about bluster than substance, but this abandons pretense
pete_dushenski: "Randy asks Gerald if he'd ever had a gay fantasy and Gerald explains that he has always thought of watching another guy masturbate. The fantasy then becomes a reality."
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 23:47:43; nubbins`: [12:27:57] <nubbins`>look: true or false: mp is fraudulently entering 17btc into bitbet's liabilities
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 23:47:43; nubbins`: [12:28:04] <kakobrekla>correct
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 23:47:43; nubbins`: [12:28:23] <kakobrekla>i am not arguing that.
cazalla: fwiw, and isn't worth much, i think nubbins` has legit cause for complaint, shame to see the fangs and then venom flow though
cazalla: pete_dushenski, never seen pod racing used in that context though, guess ill find a new me me
nubbins`: cazalla understand that in the face of abject fantasy, i have no choice
pete_dushenski: cazalla: gotta have fangs and venom, or else it's just huggy reddit...
nubbins`: asciilifeform and others who have partnered up with mp should keep a close eye on things from here on out
nubbins`: kako's straight-up getting scammed
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18800 @ 0.00053622 = 10.0809 BTC [+]
danielpbarron: nubbins`, we get it already. I don't think spamming and circumventing other people's ignore help your case..
nubbins`: no, you should stick around and say what you think
nubbins`: precious little of that happening
cazalla: pete_dushenski, sure, but sometimes a dry bite is all that's needed
nubbins`: cazalla you'll notice that mp still has yet to address the fraud claims that kako's verified
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28307 @ 0.00053622 = 15.1788 BTC [+]
pete_dushenski can't help but wonder if nubbins` has s.mpoe or s.bbet shorts. and if he didn't before, is now looking . if he just wants to "fleece some money out of [mp]", why not eh ?
nubbins`: pete_dushenski that well's gone dry. mp only pays hangers-on in shares these days
danielpbarron: and if my wwwtron dies again, i just archived it..
pete_dushenski: nubbins`: but surely you could find someone who would sell you options