muh_buttcoins: what % of your net wealth do you think is a good amount to invest in bitcoin
BingoBoingo: muh_buttcoins: It depends. What % of your net wealth do you presently depend on for provisioning a roof and some food?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30250 @ 0.00064556 = 19.5282 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how would someone know if sometyhing's a mistranslation absernt source matrerial ?
BingoBoingo: Ah, in that case prolly no more than 97-95 percent so you don't starve or go homeless. Prolly keep the number lower than that though. Diversify get apartments in different cities around the world, ya know.
BingoBoingo: hanbot: Is that a comment or a article submission?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.QNTR] 7653 @ 0.00015 = 1.148 BTC [-]
muh_buttcoins: Do you guys think the Bitstamp owners stole the coins and made up the hacked story?
mircea_popescu: anyway, go read the log, come back in half year or thereabouts.
kakobrekla: prolly same dude that is pestering trilema/qntra these days.
mircea_popescu: i don't expect "the freenode folks" have technically very much at their disposal. this is the thing, frozen since the days lilo walked the earth.
mircea_popescu: they can sort-of push the levers, they can send over diddled code to whatever "specialists" never to be heard from again,
mircea_popescu: it's akin to saying that there's child porn in the blockchain. yes, of course there is.
artifexd: mircea_popescu: Do you envision the ircd project have the end goal of replacing the freenode #b-a channel or is it only supposed to be a way for one individual to communicate with another individual?
mircea_popescu: artifexd it's supposed to replace ircd as a secure, fast and reliable means to communicate directly with others.
mircea_popescu: arguably ircd isn't really any of these, but going by intent rather than practice.
mircea_popescu: i thought about it for a while, but fundamentally, wot has a lot of trouble existing independent of the forum.
mircea_popescu: such as, in medieval times punishment lists were put out in the marketplace.
mircea_popescu: (possibly the first in the trend of white trash "do-ologists", something that's apparently coming en vogue what with all the couch surfing entrepreneurs)
mircea_popescu: reading the comments, this new ircd thing is actually fucking exciting.
kakobrekla: yeah you basically invented ethereum or something
kakobrekla: >As you well observe, this thing is in fact Bitcoin without the shared public ledger (kept instead as a virtual private ledger by each node).
artifexd: I fear that the more complicated the math, the more likely I am to screw it up.
artifexd: Is "can be transmitted via carrier pigeon" really a priority for this project?
mircea_popescu: ideally we keep away from any really dumb ideas that'd prevent moving away from the current situation
artifexd: TCP does offer advantages. Not having to reinvent/reimplement transmission reliability/ordering is not a minor thing.
artifexd: syn floods are a solved problem
artifexd: Boxes that sit in front of the server that establishes connections and only passes on the connected ones can be bought of the shelf, right?
artifexd: As far as traffic analysis goes, as long as all of the transmissions are opaque noise (because they are encrypted) and are of constant size, analysis is impossible.
artifexd: Right. But "once a second" is in the first draft of the rfc.
mircea_popescu: artifexd more's the point, i don't specifically give a shit about "analysis"
mircea_popescu: let the derps analyze it until they fall over. this retreat of person to "anonymity" is exactly the wrong strategic moves.
mircea_popescu: if the state controls the field of identity it doesn't need much more.
mircea_popescu: no, i shan't live by any entities' permission. the state will live by my permission, or go down in a hail of bullets and flame thrower exhaust.
mircea_popescu: on a more practical angle, you will note that the various entities relying on "secrecy" are in jail, from the pirate robets to the shrem dude. even "thanking the judge for a justice well done".
mircea_popescu: should be obvious that model does not work. it doesn't, specifically because it caters to the idiocy it proposes very flimsily to be "against".
artifexd: Fountain codes, insomuch as I don't understand them, complicate the design. Padding the the structure that gets encrypted doesn't.
artifexd: It is also possible that my own ignorance is complicating the design.
mircea_popescu: artifexd nothing prevents the thing to be further upgraded later on.
mircea_popescu: for that matter, we have a much shittier version currently,
mircea_popescu: and it's worked nothing short of splendidly for many years.
mircea_popescu: improvements don't have to be absolute solutions to be useful. they just have to be absolute improvements.
artifexd: 576 bytes ain't a lot of space.
mircea_popescu: another advantage to tcp is that you don't really get to care about mtus and all that.
mircea_popescu: it is in my eyes much more valuable to have a working prototype rapidly, that then can be extended (and nothing will prevent a future client to filter traffic any way itchooses, say by accepting udp only)
mircea_popescu: if done right, a reasonable expectation will be that any box is running it anyway.
mircea_popescu: but there can be a later protocol extension covering udp
mircea_popescu: and it will get more eyeballs reading code on the strength of the already existing thing.
mircea_popescu: dude, it will be 5 years before anyone even figures out there's something to attack.
mircea_popescu: i'd bet you but we can't use bitbet because it doesn't take gavin btc.
artifexd: refreshing the page to see new comments does.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18116 @ 0.00063644 = 11.5297 BTC [-]
assbot: While forcing me to pay taxes /USEmbassyBbdos tyrants won't allow me to attend /hashtag/CES2015?src=hash, /hashtag/TNABC?src=hash or anything in the US
http://t.co/8dl6qpPjUM artifexd: Oh! That shifts my interpretation somewhat.
mircea_popescu: is this ver's way of saying he can't afford anything bitcoin-related anymore, not even that thing in miami ?
mircea_popescu: artifexd i guess in retrospect the use of "for" was misguided. chetty warned me, too.
mircea_popescu: but it's for as in, "i am doing in the name of x, ie, for x"
artifexd: So the "Hi there" part could include destination information in addition to the message. Much like irc does now.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Seems so. Or it means He's basically Shrem'd except exile instead of jail.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2200 @ 0.00063644 = 1.4002 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: how do you plan to cook up a transaction dumping your coins that's valid on the gavinchain but not the mirceachain?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23800 @ 0.00063644 = 15.1473 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: First step is to double spend such that confirmed coins from address A end up confirmed to a safe depth at different addresses B and C on the different forked chains.
BingoBoingo: B and C both still being addresses under your control
BingoBoingo: Getting the coins differently spent safely to different addresses on each chain is the important part.
assbot: Which bank will have the foresight to give /krakenfx a USD bank account? /Chase /WellsFargo /BofA_News /usbank /Citibank /HSBC_US /hashtag/bitcoin?src=hash
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes if one block's large and the other small, all i need a tx that's included in the large block but not the small one. then doublespend it on the small one, which will be rejected necessarily by the large block blockchain
mircea_popescu: now i have bitcoin separated in two addresses, one for each chain.
mircea_popescu: the attempt may fail, but the cost to me of this failure is not significant, so i can keep on trying until it succeeds.
mircea_popescu: the only way to guard against it is, obviously,for the "large" chain to maintain 1:1 identity with the "small" one. because you don't just fork bitcoin.,
ben_vulpes: i still fail to see how you're going to make a txn that gets included in the large block chain and not the small block chain.
hanbot: BingoBoingo oh, i just thought i'd give the paragraph mp described a shot
mircea_popescu: (if it were that simple, teh enemies wouldn't be going through all the gymnastics & eating up all the frogs)
artifexd: ben_vulpes: You don't. You keep sending money to yourself until it happens.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes what do you mean ? it necessarily will occur.
mircea_popescu: since one contains more txn than the other by definition.
mircea_popescu: suppose i make 50k 1btc txn. they don't fit in a 1mn block. they do fit in a 10mb block. what now ?
BingoBoingo: hanbot: Well, the first bullet on the subject missed and you politely loaded the chamber with a second so why not?
ben_vulpes: i've not the mental horsepower to attack this right now. after tango tho.
mircea_popescu: artifexd i wonder if for some god-forsaken reason the shitgnomes never actually considered this obviousness.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Really for the purpose of passing airport security one could likely replace all but the volume of one cell with substance, power on from coin cells.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33088 @ 0.00063644 = 21.0585 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo soon enough there's going to be a "no half empty batteries" rule then.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well i imagine sufficiently resourceful turrorist would make a normal looking to X-Ray evil battery pack
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Right. Prolly won't be long before ISIS seizes a medical xray and does some experimenting to catch up tp 5Is on this front
artifexd: Anybody have a good name for this project? ircd isn't going to cut it.
mike_c: why? let the other ircd change it's name.
mike_c: just teasing the bitcoin foundation :D
artifexd: Now you're talking about a lot of back and forth instead of the bundle approach.
artifexd: I could see the value in that if maintaining an unbroken history was important.
artifexd: If you do the gossip thing then each server needs to maintain a history (of possibly infinite length)
artifexd: And now we have a blockchain growth problem.
mircea_popescu: the messages should be kept around for a short interval (hour ?) while the user can retain them as long as he wants.
Apocalyptic: mircea, I get a timeout for both trilema and qntra, looks like we may have been banned, which is surprising because I didn't refresh the page too quickly
artifexd: An hour? Shit. I was thinking 5 seconds.
artifexd: If a bundle is sent every second.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8200 @ 0.00063644 = 5.2188 BTC [-]
artifexd: Why? If you're connected when a message comes across the wire, you get it. If not, you don't. Much like irc now.
mircea_popescu: because it's chat. if someone wants to log it, that's a diff story.
artifexd: Sure it would. If you have a connection to another server, it will send you all the messages it gets. Although I imagine some manner of "screw you, you're too slow" code will be needed eventually.
mircea_popescu: if i were to connect to irc with a 360 baud modem i would similarily lose messages.
artifexd: asciilifeform: What you want sounds very similar to bitmessage, no?
artifexd: The storage requirements for a usenet server are stupid high.
mircea_popescu: a 360 baud modem loses 99% of usenet messages out of a pipe which puts out 36kbps worth of messages continuously.
artifexd: Side question: How do you quote a previous comment on trilema?
mircea_popescu: each server sends its own view, you compile what interests you.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00063432 = 5.7089 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: for that matter, a "total score" is nonsense predicated on this mistaken view.
mircea_popescu: which is kind-of why the "total score" nonsense is so hard entrenched.
mircea_popescu: the current implementation favours what is fundamewntally an erroneous view of thew wot as "one thing". it is not one thing.
assbot: Logged on 12-11-2014 01:24:54; asciilifeform: ^ my ancient failed attempt at 'wot.' was to be used with another (never happened) apparatus, 'sollipse,' for running a 'multiverse' of wots.
artifexd: Piss... trilema is 502ing again
artifexd: Which I can only assume means it ate my comment.
mircea_popescu: lettuce continue this convo while asciilifeform feels all left out :D
Apocalyptic: how long are the bans typically scheduled for ?
artifexd: Ok. The layers are forming in my head.
mircea_popescu: each server maintains his wot ratings, and theyt are sent out as part of hello procedure
mircea_popescu: each server compiles wot list for use of its user from helos received
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16600 @ 0.00063295 = 10.507 BTC [-]
artifexd: You specifically don't want messages signed?
artifexd: There is not. I took that as an oversight.
assbot: Logged on 05-01-2015 17:59:47; davout: i was thinking rely on GPG and simply encode a nonce in the message
artifexd: When a message A for B C comes over the wire, how can I trust that B actually said C?
artifexd: Maybe A is trustworthy but got the message from D.
artifexd: What stops server A from inventing messages by B?
mircea_popescu: don't trust people you don't trust and so you won't have to answer unpleasant questions from people whose trust you value.
mircea_popescu: in fact, for all you know A sends whole different novels to B and C.
artifexd: That seems... less than ideal.
artifexd: Because we are building a new system from the ground up.
BingoBoingo: Is anyone (mike_c?) interested in doing a recap of 2014 in Bitcoin finance?
artifexd: Everyone is already identified by crypto. Why not ensure that messages that say they are from a keyset actually came from the keyset?
mircea_popescu: do you ordinarily sign contracts with people you chat with in the bus ?
mircea_popescu: well, i don't. i more often have sex with someone in the bus
artifexd: If by "sign" you mean "have some effing clue who just said that"
mircea_popescu: for that matter, imagine a "No" string signed. what now ?
mircea_popescu: artifexd you have a clue : either your friend, or someone who only exists
mircea_popescu: this "objective existence of user" is a trap in our task here. it doesn' tserve, it hinders.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> for that matter, imagine a "No" string signed. what now ? << This is the big.
artifexd: It would be a timestamped "No".
mircea_popescu: moreover, i wish to take this opportunity and link the important point of the "unsheathe your sword". inasmuch as people proceed on the "user objectively exists" and then try to "create anonimity" the unavoidable result is "anonimity is hard lolz".
mircea_popescu: the only entity served by this nonsense is nsa. users don't actually exist, outside of what the parties you trust say.
artifexd: When you and I have a conversation on here (and gribble is around, and you ident to a key), then later you and I have another conversation (and, again, gribble is around and you ident to the same key), then I can trust that I am talking to the same person I was before.
artifexd: Signing messages would provide that same assurance. But automatically.
mircea_popescu: and if i am in your list and you in mine the same is preserved by gossipd.
artifexd: Wanna be somebody else, grab a new key.
mircea_popescu: however, if you only know asciilifeform and he;'s relying my chat,
mircea_popescu: for all practical purposes i am his 3rd split personality, a figment of his rich imagination.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, the evolution of this dev session clearly proves the superiority of chat over say bbs, of which forums and trilema comments are implementations.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, but you can sign it with yours, if you wish. which correctly reflects the situation. "here are the words of great X i attest to"
mircea_popescu: inasmuch as my old wot is still signed with my old key, and you have a copy
mircea_popescu: it's as good as current thing, except better cuz signed.
mircea_popescu: very theoretical possibility, as "the last words" are hard to fake online.
mircea_popescu: for all you know some validly signed material from 2012 satoshi emerges tomorrow. tis what it is.
mircea_popescu: for all you know it can even came in the shape of regular bitcoin txn.
mircea_popescu: well, if you can only net once in 2 months you can only net once in 2 months.
mircea_popescu: what's adequate for moving currency is not adequate for moving words.
mircea_popescu: i still can't possibly see what flaw you perceive with the wot part of gossipd
artifexd: So what is the value of this vice a private stock ircd with a gribble?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they don't dood. how do they disappear ?
mircea_popescu: anything ? they're signed by you. they're, until anyone hears better, your position.
mircea_popescu: by the same mechanism anything of anyone's kept around in the world : your friends have copies.
mircea_popescu: chat is not an instrument to permanence. it's an instrument to chat.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17700 @ 0.00063127 = 11.1735 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: i don't think you will find the computerized means to ensure immutability.
mircea_popescu: but for as long as anyone gives a shit, they'll be there.
mircea_popescu: things change,you know. mayhap people you used to trust are nopw scammers
mircea_popescu: present wot would benefit immensely from some dead hand cleanning as it is.
mircea_popescu: i really do not wish to hear how much some long gone loser trusts whatever long gone scammer.
mircea_popescu: exactly like indicated. will exists for as long as the hand lives to enforce it
mircea_popescu: the wot reflects wqhat things ARE. not what they were.
mircea_popescu: that's why if right now i change a rating, the old one's gone.
mircea_popescu: are you sure those aren't simply the resuilts of "no more central server" ?
mircea_popescu: entropy is to be embraced. it's no surender when you manage to flow with it.
mircea_popescu: the less you figh entropy while still doing your job, the longer you'll live.
mircea_popescu: so anyone's free to implement all the caching one wants.
mircea_popescu: yes stan, if you wish to have a blockchain you will end up having to implement one.
artifexd: I still haven't processed the wot part of the spec. I'm still trying to understand why you wouldn't sign the messages. It seems to be asking for evil actors.
artifexd: Other than the argument that a signed "no" could be used for something malicious. Uh... It just means that you said no. It doesn't imply what you said no in response to. Just that you said no.
artifexd: millisecond timestamps and a counter would do that too.
artifexd: Actually, as fast as I type single second resolution timestamps would be enough.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11344 @ 0.00062984 = 7.1449 BTC [-]
artifexd: Why would I sign messages? Why would I appreciate messages that I receive to be signed?
mircea_popescu: i mean, i understand, "it's how it's done". we're here because the current paradigm is - quite fundamentally - broken.
artifexd: Simple: I would sign all my messages so that if you told me that I said something that wasn't signed, I could legitimately call bullshit.
mircea_popescu: if you wish to elevate some chat to a contract, you directly can do that too.
artifexd: I would appreciate signed messages so that I could have some moderate assurance that bob is actually bob and not some asshole evil server.
mircea_popescu: if you do not know bob, that assurance is meaningless anyway.
artifexd: I would have to have a direct connection to bob in order to believe anything with his fingerprint.
artifexd: Part of the trust is that you can handle a key.
mircea_popescu: artifexd if you don't know bob, for all you know he's lying to you.
mircea_popescu: with or without a key. there is no mechanical solution to trust
mircea_popescu: just like there are no mechanically generated random numbers.
mircea_popescu: i am aware the inept consensus today is to think that technology can solve trust.
artifexd: Trust doesn't mean that I take bob's word as gospel.
mircea_popescu: the reason this is even specced is to provide some sanity while everyone wastes their life in that ai quest.
artifexd: Trust in this case means that, as asciilifeform said, bob(today) is bob(next month)
artifexd: I mean as in trust the message
mircea_popescu: for all you know bob is part of a 500 key ring operated by 5k monkeys.
artifexd: signed messages allow someone to build an identity
mircea_popescu: but more's the point : signed messages allow the world to build an adversative identity of someone.
artifexd: As you have preached in the past, the identity built over time, secured by wot, has value.
artifexd: Take away the ability to build an identity and what's left?
mircea_popescu: it does, and that's exactly what;s happening, in the proper model. people chat. on that chat they build contracts. their contract history is fixed in a wot.
artifexd: The key in the wot has no relation AT ALL to the message I just received with a fingerprint.
artifexd: Could be him. Could not. Who knows.
mircea_popescu: in the case at hand, i'd know you are you, but i wouldn't know dddddd is anyone in particular.
mircea_popescu: because in point of fact ddddd is noone in particular.
mircea_popescu: they even say this, the various random guys the wind blows in. "who are you ?" "nobody in particular".
artifexd: How do you imagine bootstrapping this thing?
artifexd: Do we get in here, ident, and pass around ip addresses?
mircea_popescu: you know, just like "up me please" but not centrally maintained.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: what would the result of someone forking the WoT be?
thestringpuller: altgribble becomes hitler and makes his own db clones from nanotubes
artifexd: After the thing is up and running for 6 months. How does some insightful dude off the street get in? Look for a public (and thus completely untrusted) access ircd that will let him connect and hope to build an identity to the point that you say "hey insightful_dude_from_the_street", what's your ip address? I'll let you connect to me because you say useful
mircea_popescu: artifexd either that, or otherwise getting into a relationship with one of the people in
mircea_popescu: how did lampelina come in ? kako added her to his node and said "hey, lampelina is this hot blondy I met in a bar."
mircea_popescu: if she starts doing evil shit like forwarding messages from obama, it'll look like obama: hey dudes, i smoke the c0k! to us,
artifexd: You have to beg for a chance to demonstrate the ability to be interesting before you get a chance to get judged.
mircea_popescu: but it'll look like obama[via lampelina] to kako. who can then go gtfo wtf you smokin beich ?!
mircea_popescu: artifexd you gotta get an up before you can voice. eh ?
kakobrekla: actually snatched from irc not a bar and our gfs make bad examples for this.
artifexd: Fuck. What are we discussing.... Oh yeah. Why automatically adding any type of verification to a message is bad.
mircea_popescu: we were discussing why it is good, and it turns out it isn't particularly, and so parsimony dictates it stays out.
kakobrekla: no sorry needed, its just that i dont put my penis into everyone that i would like to irc with.
artifexd: Preventing some douche from Bumfuck, Idaho from impersonating your hard built identity "isn't particularly good"?
mircea_popescu: artifexd this prevention is guaranteed by design as is.
mircea_popescu: he can only impersonate you to folk that don't know you.
artifexd: He can only impersonate me to people who don't have an absolutely direct connection to me.
mircea_popescu: technically, anyone can make a gpg key and name it Mircea Popescu
artifexd: That's why the fingerprint and the alias, right? Let the computer notice that the numbers don't match the the numbers that I identify as mircea.
mircea_popescu: for that matter, if we keep the A B C D ; X Y Z K convention, then A can impersonate K to Y only provided B isn't linked to C that is linked to D.
mircea_popescu: if i get a fake key of you and sign it... it's good as far as the computer is concerned.
artifexd: I have a fingerprint. Or a public key. I give that fingerprint or key a name. Anything not that key or fingerprint won't match to the name.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lives in a submarine and never connects to you or your friends. i give him my own version of the "Artifex" key. he signs it.
artifexd: What does that have to do with anything>?
artifexd: Nothing I, as artifexd with my key, say will ever show up as said by the same entity as whatever you say with your artifex key.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla you know on reflection i'm the other way around ? i wouldn't irc with anyone i put my penis into
kakobrekla: yeah but you are just weird like that.
artifexd: Sure. If you have two keys in your wot and you want to give them both the same name. Knock yourself out.
artifexd: But *you* have to make the choice to be confusing.
artifexd: The system would, without your interference, label the things I say and the things your artifex say as said by seperate entities.
artifexd: dubious? huh? how? the maths are the maths.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think you misrepresent the importance of this. currently, I can tell. *I*. Because i'm me, specifically. if you signed, so could preet.
mircea_popescu: which is why this is an ircd fork rather than whatever, just apt-get it.
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as "sign for friends" outside of the model detailed in my spec.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2000 @ 0.00079058 = 1.5812 BTC [-] {5}
mircea_popescu: consider a bunch of chatlogs from gossipd presented in court.
mircea_popescu: "and then you said so and so" "um how you know this ?" "from node C" "well it lied to you"
artifexd: Your argument is that you WANT deniability?
mircea_popescu: artifexd my argument is that deniability must be baked in or not had.
mircea_popescu: and for chat it must be had. and so... it must be baked in.
artifexd: Hmmm.... this is not the project that I thought it was.
mircea_popescu: artifexd suppose you don't reg your name, and someone comes in as artifexd and says things. should you be forced somehow to say if this is the case or not ?
mircea_popescu: i want exactly what chat is : absolute deniability to the entire world, save your friends.
mircea_popescu: which is exactly how speech has functioned, since the dawn of time, to create what is known as the free world.
mircea_popescu: but i also have little interest in fighting the narrowing down. that's not really a good use of time.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35000 @ 0.00062617 = 21.916 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: as far as it's in the form "either you or A X" the only answer is "i don't care."
artifexd: How many connections to other servers do you imagine that you will have? You as in you mircea_popescu.
mircea_popescu: artifexd anywhere between a few dozen and a few thousands.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am not thinking of an adversary. i am designing things correctly.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's a subplot i dun wanna enter into now - this is complex enough as it is - but suffice to say i am persuaded such situations are thermodynamiocally bound to narrow timespaces.
mircea_popescu: ie, the police state only exists now and again, when the state of technology is poor enough.
mircea_popescu: artifexd a 1mbps connection, which is reasonably common in households, should be able to support maybe a few hundred connections.
mircea_popescu: then again, the number of people people know is, from memory 1-200.
mircea_popescu: and admitting everyone known is known to the same, high degree to warrant a connection.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's merely meant to put chat on a sane footing.
mircea_popescu: since we're fixing ircd, might as well actually do it.
mircea_popescu: i don;'t see what in the spec would prevent anyone from so doing.
artifexd: I would think that instead of a list of ip addresses you would have a list of pubkeys and each pubkey has one (or more) ip addresses assigned to it. When you start up gossipd, it calls out to all the ip addresses in the lists and says "I'm bob, proven by this signature. Prove you are alice, with cryptoproof". If the answering box responds appropriately,
☟︎ artifexd: cool. Keep the connection. If not, dump it.
mircea_popescu: artifexd this could also work, as a handshakey sort of thing, sure.
artifexd: As a currently running gossipd, if I get a connection request with "I'm bob. Here's proof", then I accept the connection and add that ip address to my list for that key. (For later connecting to him)
mircea_popescu: spec was simpler on the assumption that since the helo package is keyed to the supposed key of the server, there's no need to challenge
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19498 @ 0.00061581 = 12.0071 BTC [-]
artifexd: Sure. Then the handshake doesn't go both ways, but the information shared is the same. I know you have the key you say you have. You know I have the key I say I have.
artifexd: I add the ip address to the key so when I start up, I have a place (or places) to look for you.
artifexd: asciilifeform: You have to have some way of receiving return messages, right?
mircea_popescu: cause you're tryin to shoehorn nonchat uses of a chat network.
mircea_popescu: so you're going to have to carry the shoe horn yourself.
artifexd: Sure. I have no issue with that.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10500 @ 0.00064399 = 6.7619 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: o look, 1k lines by 4 am. ben_vulpes will so much love this.
artifexd: Sign whatever you want. As long as the timestamp is recent.
mircea_popescu: artifexd so how is it different from the project you thouight it was ?
assbot: Logged on 07-01-2015 01:22:05; asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.
artifexd: I wasn't imagining so many direct connections.
artifexd: I had imagined few connections, more routing.
mircea_popescu: if anyone runs a mega node, his hardware is his problem
artifexd: I had imagined #b-a but where everyone is ident'd all the time. No impersonating anyone else is remotely possible.
artifexd: I start up my little process, it makes a connection to one or eight other people and it just works through the magic of maths.
mircea_popescu: i am impersonated all the time, on all sorts of venues.
mircea_popescu: i have enough experience with it to know it does \exactly nothing.
artifexd: I think you're accused of being other people more often than you are impersonated.
mircea_popescu: artifexd this is possible lol. but also a large number.
artifexd: asciilifeform: That is my desire as well
mircea_popescu: what people who have no clue believe resting squarely outside not of your control, but THIS WORLD.
mircea_popescu: perhaps this is what irks, such a clear statement of that inconvenient (but nevertheless true) fact
mircea_popescu: artifexd the roland freisler of our times, preet bharara. crown's prosecutor for southern ny / rico conspiracy lynchpin.
assbot: Logged on 09-07-2014 00:04:59; asciilifeform: pierce << ideal example of the animal described on one of mircea_popescu's essays - he could be packed into prison for life, any time, based on what's in his file. so he does as instructed.
mircea_popescu: seems to me on the contrary, it's just "random redneck doing various shit online like scams and pedophilia got nicked"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform actual pedo irl yes. among the online scum that makes up a good chunk of the "bitcoin community" on places like forums etc, common enough.
mircea_popescu: doubt it tho, seeing how many they are and how ignominously they labour.
mircea_popescu: for my curiosity, people who run torrents : how many connections is common ? 10 ? 20 ? 40 ? 80 ? 160 ?
mircea_popescu: i just meant, generally. i dun care for what, trying to see how this works in practice.
artifexd: The torrents that I have run get 15-20 connections
mircea_popescu: artifexd i ended up referring to your project as that.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform then you piss me off, i frown at your friend, you're out.
mircea_popescu: ok, i frown at your friend, he demures, i delink him, you both are out.
mircea_popescu: in practice derps never manage this, if we're to go by history, but anyway.
mircea_popescu: as far as i recall, for as far as my own chatlog is concerned, it took them exactly an hour longer than it took me to decide it's enough.
mircea_popescu: now, why shouldn't this be the situation to everyone ?
mircea_popescu: i dun see how any of these are serious avenues to attack gossipd.
mircea_popescu: you understand this ? nobody can police a list of 2bn ip addresses.
mircea_popescu: blacklisting doesn't work, and whitelisting should be done locally, and responsibly.
mircea_popescu: but you disagree with the implementation of ewxactly this ?
mircea_popescu: as in, why add clunk that actually harms and hinders, except to perpetuate what we generally agree is a harmful meme.
artifexd: Other than some extra bytes, how is it clunk? How does it harm or hinder?
mircea_popescu: currently : 1. friend to friend relations are entirely cryptographically secured. 2. unknown-to-unknown relations are not secured, and must proceed through a friend of either party to even happen.
mircea_popescu: what you propose : 1. friend to friend and unknown to unknown relations are the same thing.
mircea_popescu: this harms because : it gives unknowns a weight they should not have ; it removes the incentive for users to police at their local level ; it allows third parties to construct undeniable chatlogs that they had no business in.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: anmd there's plenty more, but srsly... how much is needed.
artifexd: It doesn't give weight to unknowns. It gives continuity do unknowns should they desire it.
mircea_popescu: the existence of unknowns should be entirely at the mercy of the knowns. no exceptions and no way out.
artifexd: No. It is continuity. I assign weight to what they say by my judgement. They assign continuity to what they say by signing it.
mircea_popescu: the moment you add them to your list, they have continuity.
mircea_popescu: because we don't work for the group here. we work for the individual.
artifexd: it allows third parties to construct undeniable chatlogs << while true, I don't see the issue with it
mircea_popescu: artifexd i do. it's the equivalent of making a weirdo reality where anyone who eavesdrops also has a recording device.
mircea_popescu: none of their fuckinbg business. if they weren't invited to participate they can not RELY on the discussion.
mircea_popescu: fact is, they only do if you wish to implement them. i do not.
mircea_popescu: i don't see much has improved since the recording machine era. do you ?
mircea_popescu: this specifically aims for reconstructing sane chat, online.
mircea_popescu: rather than some conveniently diddled , horrible implementation designed for the needs of the nsa
mircea_popescu: what the clueless "believe" can not ever be your concern.
mircea_popescu: it is folly to even consider this point. focus on what is within your control.
mircea_popescu: a screening of "a man for all seasons" is in order here.
mircea_popescu: quite exceptional walk through the very points involved.
mircea_popescu: fundamentally your argument reduces to a deep seated "all peoples matter"
mircea_popescu: to the tune of monty pytrhon's every sperm is sacred. no, they do not.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because whythe fuck do you care what some people you doin't know say on any topic ?
mircea_popescu: well since you're concerned with what he might say or believe, it seems he does.
mircea_popescu: at issue is your proposal to make this a reality for people you don't know.
mircea_popescu: you know my key, you directly verify my client is signing correctly, what is keft ?
mircea_popescu: that, it does. but it makes no representation they are from me.
mircea_popescu: or, if you prefer, elevating the source to the rank of a connect.
mircea_popescu: the same relation as between you and me, in the scenario.
mircea_popescu: i think i explained it half a dozen different ways, to exhaustion, but am at a loss as to why what seems obvious is not communicating itself.
mircea_popescu: let's go the other way. why do you think it would so lower them ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3700 @ 0.00061581 = 2.2785 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: ok, let's work a different way. let us compare two scenarios.
mircea_popescu: in both cases, we are discussing user Panopticon, who sees all and says nothing. now, in spec as is, it is true that user P will know... nothing. correct ? whereas in your proposed spec, he would know... everything. correct ?
mircea_popescu: how is giving the bum EVERYTHING lowering him in any sense ?
mircea_popescu: and whence and wherefore should he have anything but nothing ?
mircea_popescu: well yes. all the signed chats of everyone = everything. absolutely as 1 = 1.
artifexd: I guess I like the default sign because I see myself as Panopticon. I don't talk much. But I watch and listen. Default-sign helps me.
mircea_popescu: artifexd you might discover it hurts you, much like the low level usg employee who thinks the fed helps him would soon discover his lot would be better without that bit.
mircea_popescu: for all he knows, they're all in cahoots, sending him lulz.
mircea_popescu: more importantly, hitler IS a lot more in that than he would be in this.
mircea_popescu: this is paid for, somewhere, by someone. who is paying but me ? even if i can't show where it leeches me, it does. why should i ?
mircea_popescu: the tor bs is an attempt to "fix" in implementation problems to whose existence it not merely contributes, but moore! whose existence it actually postulates.
mircea_popescu: it is fundamentally broken and will never work exactly because it simply presumes the adversary wins.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5070 @ 0.00062134 = 3.1502 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: wheras as proposed, gossipd makes the enemy outright impossible.
mircea_popescu: so the fundamental statement is "the group is more important than the individual"
mircea_popescu: this is not some sort of random contrivance of boredom.
mircea_popescu: this is specifically because, historically, the individual is more important than the group
mircea_popescu: which is how humanity managed to inch its way to this sad time when it's about to kill itself a thousand different ways
mircea_popescu: i must say, incidentally, i thoroughly enjoyed this discussion.
artifexd: "How many times do I have to explain this shit!"
artifexd: This pretty much prevents one-way relationships, right?
artifexd: If you and I are online, unless we are both in each other's list, we will never direct-connect.
mircea_popescu: this part is finnicky. it shouldn't, ideally, but i don't see how it could be done.
artifexd: We have to both agree to trust each other.
mircea_popescu: more importantly, connections on the internet don't work unilaterally.
mircea_popescu: so im guessing this is going to be forced by the medium.
mircea_popescu: if we were onm a purely broadcast network, it'd work right
mircea_popescu: im not entirely sure it is actually to any purpose important.
artifexd: upd is trivial for sending information if you don't care if they received it
artifexd: If you want a back and forth connection, you end up duplicating tcp yourself.
mircea_popescu: artifexd you will notice the spec is broadcast-oriented.
mircea_popescu: you don't really need to hear anything back from anyone.
mircea_popescu: artifexd nevertheless, since output is always encrypted to a key,
mircea_popescu: (i mean, as opposed to soft. it's not like twitter, follow X. it's the opposite, "send to X")
decimation: it occurs to me that one ought not design low level features into a communication system unless absolutely necessary
assbot: Logged on 07-01-2015 01:22:05; asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.
mircea_popescu: i might be especially thick, but i don't actually understand what decimation is saying.
decimation: this was from a paper that was written by folks who designed early 80's network protocols
decimation: I don't see why one couldn't route ircd on top of ascii's udp-wot-internet
mircea_popescu: decimation did you actually read the whole discussion ?
decimation: I did. I find myself liking ascii's hardened bedrock
decimation: it was a good discussion, I also found it stimulating
decimation: but I do see the problem of broadcasting signed messages everywhere
adlai: is this udp-over-wot concept "too long to fit in the margin", or have you sketched something about about it somewhere?
mircea_popescu: yes, well, this is more a function of louis than anything.
adlai: !s udp wot from:ascii
decimation: the interent, as exists, is like tor - in the sense that the group is trying to solve the individual's problem
decimation: the only real method of escape is layer 1 routing
adlai: sure, this "ircd" thingy is just the latest in an uncoordinated herd of attempts to attack this same general problem
adlai . o ( one could say that mpex simulates udp on top of tcp )
adlai: not enough "quantum"?
adlai: I guess it's an example of something which could work equally well over udp, and just happens to use tcp for convenience
adlai: what about mpex needs tcp?
adlai: I guess serving up data
adlai is thinking too much like his code
decimation: yes, except physics categorizes these things naturally, in terms of propagation
mircea_popescu: just saying, kind of an engineering convention. no point in seeing too much metaphysics behind it
decimation: if a receiver is capable of swallowing large power without desensitization, one can listen while one transmits arbitrarily
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the price for this, of course, is immutability :)
decimation: lol theremin was a zek when he 'invented' it
decimation: ascii you could go visit it in person apparently
decimation: asciilifeform: a moving 'polarid' under a modulated light would do it
ben_vulpes: matter of fact listening to you and mircea_popescu and artifexed go on has been educational and illuminating in any number of ways
mircea_popescu: "we were going to make it, so i told the wife, go ahead and get started, i'ma grab a paper"
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> "fun" << myeah something like fun
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> i like 'unscannable for', not because of any derping re: 'anonymity', but from sheer delight in the morale hit to enemy << this one in particular
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [] and if i am in your list and you in mine the same is preserved by gossipd. << means that if you want everything you say on the record, operate a server for your identity.
ben_vulpes: how to preserve the serenissima log semantics though? if all "chat lines" are wholly deniable, the notion of a public forum in which to do business publically falls apart.
ben_vulpes: it only works for us, and sort of right now (?!?!?) because once upon a time assbot relied on the "authedness" of users via the "gribble" service.
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [] that is an ad-hoc, bug-ridden reimplementation of the blockchain! << yeah but only half
ben_vulpes: how does it maintain any sort of relevance, if it can be polluted by...
ben_vulpes: ah i guess the log only makes sense as maintained by someone in a wot
mircea_popescu: this identity, which may be me unless i deny it, proposes he will sign a contract so and so.
ben_vulpes: by anyone who cares to transmit with a bogus "from"
mircea_popescu: no contract appears. well... now you cantell whoever you see me through that wtf is this bs.
ben_vulpes: i was commenting at the point in the discusison at which messages were unsigned. did messages become signed?
mircea_popescu: except once the few derps flaked, i had nobody to complain to.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes no but recall the thing itself i refer to. a pastebin contract was in fact proferred.
ben_vulpes: forgive the dunce cap hanging over my eyes, but i'm entirely failing to see how this makes for an unrepudiable log of the forum.
mircea_popescu: it only makes for an unrepudiable log of what matters.
ben_vulpes: "what matters" << to a keyset though, not "to everyone"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21100 @ 0.00061581 = 12.9936 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: not a record of all strings sent to "#b-a", but a record of all strings sent to "#b-a" as seen by the lN of "assbot".
ben_vulpes: it's because we're all distracted by the hyperattractor 30d above the horizon and 15 deg port!
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [] probably quite a few folks. but the thing that distinguishes fermat from wot is that wot needs to be at least quasi-'hot' to really work as intended, imho. << strikes me that a series of "rating" messages should be parsed to build a rating history.
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [] i won't argue that wot moves ought to be retained for all eternity; but will say that some automatic caching is necessary << wotchains, perchance?
BingoBoingo: * mircea_popescu finds it funny how the same one stump trips erryone. << Had to watchh for a while, but it clicked all at once
mircea_popescu: wots are trivially doublespent. as part of normal functioning.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Yeah. the skeleton in the RFC wasn't as revealing as the conversation was. gossipd putting the emphasis on Relay in IRC
mircea_popescu: maybe you should write a restatement ? curious how it'd read.
BingoBoingo: Needs more time to coalesce on brain. Might be on the order tomorrow.
BingoBoingo: The challenge is the edge cases in the discussion really make the thing click.
mircea_popescu: anyway, on contemplation i actually see this as my finest work to date.
mircea_popescu: this is the only kind of youth one could possibly wish for themselves.
BingoBoingo: And it's the kind of youth one has to be older than 30 to experience.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15350 @ 0.00062031 = 9.5218 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14114 @ 0.00062638 = 8.8407 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16874 @ 0.00062849 = 10.6051 BTC [+] {2}
Vexual: y'all are fixing irc? better close that copper shoert.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18450 @ 0.00063015 = 11.6263 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14400 @ 0.00062239 = 8.9624 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13388 @ 0.00063097 = 8.4474 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6098 @ 0.00064548 = 3.9361 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48100 @ 0.00064567 = 31.0567 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1609 @ 0.00064648 = 1.0402 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1548 @ 0.00079219 = 1.2263 BTC [-] {6}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12000 @ 0.00064648 = 7.7578 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8000 @ 0.00064585 = 5.1668 BTC [-]
cazalla: well, no longer auth'd so no help to you sorry RagnarDanneskjol
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23550 @ 0.00063763 = 15.0162 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31500 @ 0.00062183 = 19.5876 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9800 @ 0.00063719 = 6.2445 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41447 @ 0.00064778 = 26.8485 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22053 @ 0.00065249 = 14.3894 BTC [+]
mod6: Since like 2014.10.22 I've been stabbing derps.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13600 @ 0.00065249 = 8.8739 BTC [+] {2}
mod6: thestringpuller: Last Of A Dying Breed
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21997 @ 0.00065316 = 14.3676 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24200 @ 0.00065363 = 15.8178 BTC [+]
jurov: cue thestringpuller chest thumping in full gear
jurov: someone pls up nubbins`
jurov: i cannot anymore :(
nubbins`: wanted to share this, thought you guys might appreciate
nubbins`: it just pulls news stories from other websites and does blind word replacement on the articles, to make them seem original
mod6: ``Error establishing database connection''
nubbins`: nod guess 3 of us at once is too much
fluffypony: "A self-murder bomber pushing a minibus full of explosives killed during slightest 30 people Wednesday morning as cadets collected nearby a military academy in a heart of Yemen’s capital"
fluffypony: "Skydivers burst to reserve before craft crashes"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7050 @ 0.00065364 = 4.6082 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: Police were called. They contend a 35-year-old Angus, Ont., male was inebriated and incompetent to scrupulously caring for himself.
jurov: "competent to scrupulously care for oneself" lol this is CV material
jurov: "Lovers of all things sly gathered to move on a holiday cheer, tell a few jokes and lift income for cats with no place to call home." indeed
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20400 @ 0.00064564 = 13.1711 BTC [-]
saifedean: Good evening, gentlemen, how goes it?
TomServo: 'evening. It goes well, aside from the gribble vacation.
saifedean: word on the street is that the noob ddosing subsided, so i dropped by
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1850 @ 0.00064498 = 1.1932 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX:S.QNTR] 1D: 0.00015 / 0.00015 / 0.00015 (7703 shares, 1.16 BTC), 7D: 0.00015 / 0.00015 / 0.00015 (7703 shares, 1.16 BTC), 30D: 0.00015 / 0.00015 / 0.00015 (7703 shares, 1.16 BTC)
assbot: Last trade for S.QNTR on MPEX was at 0.00015 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: "Not everyone who wants an immediate confirmation will be able to get it, regardless of how much they pay. If there's more people wanting next-block confirmation than there are slots in the block, it's mathematically guaranteed that people will miss out. As network usage grows, the percentage of unsatisfied users will grow linearly with it."
mircea_popescu: "i want it" "are you paying for it ?" "no, but i still want it" "because ?" "because i say so, damn it" "this isn't fiat, billy" "fuck you stop opressing me"
thestringpuller: like a kid having a temper tantrum in a store because mommy won't buy him gummy bears
mircea_popescu: anyway, i kinda enjoy all this acting as if they have an option in the matter.
mircea_popescu: whatever mini-nuland is in charge does not understand that there are forces more powerful on the field, who "do not understand how the world works"
thestringpuller: but even so any fork at all needs to be killed immediately. it splits network power and lowers security.
mircea_popescu: the expensive and painful slow roasting of idiots is a very valuable output.
mircea_popescu: their cries of pain and outrage should be preserved for posterity, to teach others.
mircea_popescu: the fact that no lord ever wanted whoever he punished to ever die is directly apparent if you look at two things : their artists made hell be eternal torture ; the bodies lay in the gibbet at the gate for much longer than the dude inside survived.
mircea_popescu: so no, if it lasts forever and it's nothing but a hellish cried of the tortured all the better.
mircea_popescu: sadly this won't be possible here, like it's not possible generally, but in spirit.
thestringpuller: i'm visualizing a classroom full of students pointing and laughing at Gavin while he struggles to find emotions and reactions
PeterL: yeah, I know, I need to fix it
PeterL: I think my server is blocked from trilema?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18350 @ 0.0006522 = 11.9679 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20250 @ 0.00064326 = 13.026 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo cazalla here's a pretty good tip for qntra :
mircea_popescu: nejc/bitstamp crew allege that hacker somehow got into their system, stole privkeys for their addresses, AND THEN deleted their copies. magically. they were all online or something, who knows.
mircea_popescu: now is the theory here that what, the haxxor is using on bitbet the same address that nejc was using on bitbet prior to the "hack" ? because why ?
PeterL: my father-in-law earns a living at home in his pajamas, programming
mircea_popescu: "Piketty, some would say, is king. I say Piketty has shown, like Gibbon, what is possible. "
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22200 @ 0.00065392 = 14.517 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: ahhh the fact reddit is so in favour of this hardfork business is so great :D
mod6: tie them to the radiator and grape them in the mouth
mircea_popescu: nubbins`: it just pulls news stories from other websites and does blind word replacement on the articles, to make them seem original <<< there's a million of these.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6450 @ 0.000655 = 4.2248 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: "The IETF, obviously fearing irrelevance, hastily "discovered" that the HTTP/1.1 protocol needed an update, and tasked a working group with preparing it on an unrealistically short schedule. This ruled out any basis for the new HTTP/2.0 other than the SPDY protocol. With only the most hideous of SPDY's warts removed, and all other attempts at improvement rejected as "not in scope," "too late," or "no consensus," the IE
mircea_popescu: TF can now claim relevance and victory by conceding practically every principle ever held dear in return for the privilege of rubber-stamping Google's initiative."
mircea_popescu: as if irrelevance can ever be averted by this sort of thing.
mircea_popescu: it's like making dogs blind to your fear by shaking uncontrollably.
mircea_popescu: jurov: lots of derp tho << i kinda liked his piece tbh.
jurov: ncfaci meant the bits where he promoted self-signed certs
jurov: lol that's just keyfart
mircea_popescu: after all "self-signed" cert can be edged into proper gpg signed matter, and it's all good.
mircea_popescu: obviously "one has no way of knowing" if a self signed cert is good. but if there's also a .asc on the server... i'd say it's a damned sight better than "Verizon certifies"
mircea_popescu: jurov im curious to hear the self signed cert reasoning tbh.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2300 @ 0.00064884 = 1.4923 BTC [-] {2}
kakobrekla: unfortunately things people call browsers dont like to swallow self signed.
jurov: i believe self-signed certs are usable only for private use
jurov: and even they they are PITA
jurov: so they are not "almost zero cost"
jurov: inside a company for example
jurov: i don't contest that
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they also managed this situation where all the shit online carries a "5000 derps that don't really exist LIKE THIS"
mircea_popescu: jurov so you mean, it only works for sessions where the user knows/trusts the source, as opposed to whatever, random drive-by publishing ?
mircea_popescu: would work for a bank, wouldn't work for a newspaper sort of thing ?
jurov: i'm looking forward how are they going to solve it in libressl, if ever
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16700 @ 0.000656 = 10.9552 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: i don't see how every time i'm accessing anything via
https/smtps i'm going to think whether this is the right cert
jurov: tools like surl don't save it like ssh
mircea_popescu: checks against it as if it were verizon'd, no difference
jurov: i am not talking about browser, that's lost cause
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> now is the theory here that what, the haxxor is using on bitbet the same address that nejc was using on bitbet prior to the "hack" ? because why ? << I don't see any new bets after the 4th. COuld just be a derp who wanted to "win" to his Bitstamp deposit address?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo wasn't the actual breach prior to the 4th ?
jurov: it annoys me to no end when i install self-signed cert and even if i try to distribute it between machines, some dam curl-like tool breaks
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Bitstamp's line is the 4th and they didn't announce before then. so if it was earlier still time for customers to get fucked pertending deposit addressses are theirs.
jurov: also, email clients. it was *not* possible to make all them work with self-signed cert
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo i guess that works out then, prolly a customer.
jurov: it's just all lost cause. self-signed certs yes, but only after ssl/tls is ditched.
mircea_popescu: jurov well ok, by and large for any expectation it won't be possible to make "all" work. because anyone can anything, and well...
mircea_popescu: but i see whatcha mean. "not politically favoured, so not as well ironed out, so harder to use"
jurov: it's much easier with ssh for example
mircea_popescu: whodda thought, you know, that NOT invoving an us company is better.
BingoBoingo: pete suggested: "Maybe they are better at keeping it on the down low".
mircea_popescu: what atlantic really means is "why are there so few black scammers in bitcoin, because that's all we know about anyway". and the reason couldn't possibly be "because they're just more honest than whitey"
thestringpuller: pretty sure he's taking bitpay cock up da butt knowing the implications
mircea_popescu: you keep going. you'll run out before i'm done enumerating pasty ass.
thestringpuller: hahaha! i thought only black people used "pasty white person" phrasing
thestringpuller: gotta love pasty white girls who are afraid of the sun like vampires tho ;)
mircea_popescu: anyway, i have no problem with dudes going "oh, blacks do all teh crime!!!" if that's what they believe, and start running off stats about it. big whoop. but it's funny how nobody happens to fucking noticing the OTHER stats.
mircea_popescu: "black on black violence in the ghetto is so and so!!1". fine. and white on white scamming in bitcoin is how ?
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> i'm told that there is - somewhat lower-tech - traditional 'black on black' sc4mz0r1ng - 'numbers games' run in back alleys, etc. << Replaced by same game with different operator "Lottery"
mircea_popescu: i went to school in this huge, what you'd call super-preppy thing.
mircea_popescu: and i have this distinct memory of a kid being pissed of at some chick, and going to carve "X is a whore" in the wall
mircea_popescu: except... there was that ALREADY carved there. easily 50 years old.
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell pete_dushenski "Their habitual attacks on forums is usually" << are.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1273 @ 0.00079999 = 1.0184 BTC [-] {4}
mircea_popescu: "But what of it? How does this effect you? Well, it effects" affects you. afect is another name for sentiment. to affect is to cause an effect upon something. to effect, confusingly enough, is to cause the execution of something. so, you effect legislation, and that legislation affects people.
saifedean: hai there, mp, thanks for the voice
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14800 @ 0.00065626 = 9.7126 BTC [+]
assbot: Our temporary website didn’t feel quite like home - so we gave it a little refresh while we work on restoring full services.
kakobrekla: all green, nicely done. Safe choice of colors.
mircea_popescu: when are they bringing the fractional reserve back up ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22202 @ 0.00065626 = 14.5703 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47600 @ 0.00063408 = 30.1822 BTC [-] {6}
kakobrekla: btw bitstamp is moving operations to us (prolly sf).
☟︎ mike_c: interesting. they must be retaining UK incorporation, no? I would think it would be legal shitstorm otherwise.
kakobrekla: i dont think so but dont have the details.
mike_c: they should come to NYC. very bitcoin friendly. just drop all your coins off at lawsky's office on the way into town.
BingoBoingo: Mebbe they think legal shitstorm is to their benefit for filing bankruptcy?
mircea_popescu: something tells me they have nfi how to write a term sheet, and there's about 50-50 odds of the financer backing out.
mircea_popescu: watch how in a few short months it won't be possible to buy bitcoin at any price.
mircea_popescu: i guess ima have to bring an exchange online willy-nilly.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21700 @ 0.00065305 = 14.1712 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 7345 @ 0.00024059 = 1.7671 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 22000 @ 0.00023561 = 5.1834 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30200 @ 0.00063652 = 19.2229 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15750 @ 0.00062815 = 9.8934 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 15093 @ 0.0002001 = 3.0201 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: * asciilifeform will fly to conf3 on a pig, if this happens << The Fairchild "WartHog"???
artifexd: mircea_popescu: Regarding gossipd, do you have any preference for the data flowing over the wire as binary or text?
artifexd: Binary would mean shorter messages because fingerprint a would only take up 20 bytes (instead of 40) and keys would not have to be armored. Text would make the flow easier to read/debug but the data would necessarily take up more space.
jurov: artifecd did you research some existing ideas?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4400 @ 0.00062034 = 2.7295 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24353 @ 0.00065628 = 15.9824 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Logged on 05-01-2015 15:10:48; kakobrekla: im now getting "my output address is bitstamp hot wallet" emails from bitbet users.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23300 @ 0.00065933 = 15.3624 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40570 @ 0.0006355 = 25.7822 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45530 @ 0.00061195 = 27.8621 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22500 @ 0.00061774 = 13.8992 BTC [+]
cazalla: BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Bitstamp's line is the 4th and they didn't announce before then. so if it was earlier still time for customers to get fucked pertending deposit addressses are theirs. <<< and there is still the issue of what amount of coins will not honoured by bitstamp after the annoucement
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33300 @ 0.00065025 = 21.6533 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00066312 = 7.5596 BTC [+] {4}
mircea_popescu: artifexd it's always encrypted, so what do you mean text ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5000 @ 0.000664 = 3.32 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9276 @ 0.000664 = 6.1593 BTC [+]
Apocalyptic: "mircea_popescu:i must say, incidentally, i thoroughly enjoyed this discussion." // so did I, thanks for the priceless logs
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8224 @ 0.00065749 = 5.4072 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29650 @ 0.00066537 = 19.7282 BTC [+] {3}
mike_c: ^ it is also illegal to sell them.. such bullshit.
undata: "and then the ashes of their apps were all that remained"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13168 @ 0.00066552 = 8.7636 BTC [+] {2}
undata: asciilifeform: seems like an economic meltdown would also decrease the demand for those for new iPhones
BingoBoingo: I'm pretty sure pNohe sellers could find a way to make resistive touchscreens fashionable again.
mircea_popescu: independence is predicated on something other than being a redditor.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4226 @ 0.00065749 = 2.7786 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: Only really differs in that some outside idiots consider things that emerge from there as worthy of consideration as virtue, instead of vice as in the case of English gin.
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> [] o look, 1k lines by 4 am. ben_vulpes will so much love this. << lord am i
assbot: Logged on 27-07-2014 19:19:35; mircea_popescu: chetty: II 5. France took Algeria, hoping for a country to eat cassoulet and instead France is now eating couscous. << this is what happens when small penis messes with big penis.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Naturally. I still wait for California's Seirra Nevada range to be inverted in the quest for rare minerals and to create H2O reservoir capacity to sustain the prisons and work farms.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4600 @ 0.00062969 = 2.8966 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: wait are we actually using altgribble for auth now?
BingoBoingo: Leopold's flavor also came with an exit strategy.
ben_vulpes: yeah but how come BingoBoingo gets to !up and not me
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes cause he kept an uninterrupted connection and assbot still sees him
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: Maybe your connection just needs to be less wonh
mircea_popescu: <BingoBoingo> Only really differs in that some outside idiots consider things that emerge from there as worthy of consideration as virtue, instead of vice as in the case of English gin. <<< there;'s tons of "gin as virtue" songs and oral liuterature.
mircea_popescu: it was not preserved in writing because the mps of the time did not see itworthy of their wot.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15300 @ 0.00066554 = 10.1828 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: <ben_vulpes> wait are we actually using altgribble for auth now? << no.
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> [] hitler does know considerably more under the all-signed scenario than alternative. << your sought "morale hit"
kakobrekla: ben_vulpes you can speak cause you have ops not cause authed with gribble and assbot.
ben_vulpes: confession time, i know nothing about the arcana of irc modes
ben_vulpes: i imagine we'll all be running our own cells initially.
ben_vulpes: how does someone relay a message to a cell and from a cell to another cell?
ben_vulpes: forgive the extremely poorly articulated comment.
ben_vulpes: i imagine a steady-state future where people operate gossipd cells in much the same way that ircd's are operated on fleanode.
ben_vulpes: the structure of the thing implies many wots.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes there's no value in imposing values for poeople.
mircea_popescu: just as long as i can isolate the redditd from my machine, the people who want to be in there are more then welcome to their own choices.
ben_vulpes: i'm not suggesting any values be forced on anyone.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i thought it's implicit in the spec, in the "receiver decides if to relay" : you can configure a client to pass, to user or other clients, whatever you wish
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes granted. i just mean... so they do,more power to em.
ben_vulpes intends to run an open relay node - openly disclosed as such for those in the mood to twiddle knobs
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: "hashname" << have ye unleashed the valkyrie on reddit?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6450 @ 0.00066554 = 4.2927 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12400 @ 0.00066593 = 8.2575 BTC [+] {2}