mircea_popescu: you know ftr trb node state of blockpool has improved tremendously.
mircea_popescu: actually... just macaws. lots and lots and lots of macaws.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 11:06 Techman: mircea_popescu: what isy our take on bitcoin dropping below 10K (at least on binance)
mircea_popescu: o check it out asciilifeform "cardano" the coin is up 25%!!1
mircea_popescu: "Cardano is a decentralised public blockchain and cryptocurrency project and is fully open source. Cardano is developing a smart contract platform which seeks to deliver more advanced features than any protocol previously developed. It is the first blockchain platform to evolve out of a scientific philosophy and a research-first driven approach. Thedevelopment team consists of a large global collective of expert engineers and
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 13:09 esthlos:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771055 << My thought was to scrap the current client in favor of a customized one, with eucrypt protocol as the backbone. Is this 1. not what you want, or 2. a bad idea?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform gotta have a foundation like tits gotta have a boar.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 13:15 esthlos: Rereading, seems clear that you want eulora's graphics engine.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it rather looks like the elaboratest trollcoin so far.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 15:30 asciilifeform: has apeloyee found a specific instance where it can be made to eggog ? or is this a hypothetical 'once less clueful people start changing things' observation ?
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 15:33 asciilifeform: really all routines oughta behave consistently in re input-overwrite.
mircea_popescu: saying "well i can't protect car from usage of idiots" is one thing, but having the gas and break pedals not ever interchange is the other thing.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 15:39 apeloyee: does gnat provide a facility to check aliasing at runtime?
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 15:50 apeloyee: well, ideally it would have a "No_Out_Arguments_Aliasing" restriction which would insert runtime checks
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 17:42 asciilifeform: possibly there ought to be not 1 but... 4 null cells
mircea_popescu: ima have to finish this megalog tomorro, too exhausted.
shinohai: "A promise from the SCAM coin team: We won't sleep until SCAM coin has been successfully listed on at least one shitty exchange." <<< Truth in advertising now I guess.
a111: Logged on 2016-11-18 15:15 mircea_popescu: gotta kyc in case the fat tard over at the us park administration gets tired of asking for special booth at burning man and wants to peruse pics of subtards licking fish through a screen of milk, gotta have the pics ready for him!!11
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 11800.0, vol: 28608.75009947 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 11487.0, vol: 103165.57225643 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 11815.0, vol: 9783.20905574 | Volume-weighted last average: 11572.9257097
mircea_popescu rests easy in the knowledge he's penned the most outrageous item ever written in english, by such a margin as to permanently defy competition
shinohai: I wonder how long it would stay up if I posted it to r/TwoXChromosomes
shinohai: In which mircea_popescu demonstrates the `Loli-pop`
mircea_popescu: i see it takes teh forum 5 minutes to figure out the easter egg in there...
mircea_popescu: so is diana_coman ; and earlier ave1 ! truly spectacular republica output these days!
diana_coman: taking of baking, these eucrypt blog posts feel like cozonaci : always sort of growing more than I expect them, no matter what adjustment to expectations previous batch caused
BingoBoingo baking next post about the very sad hombre de Inglaterra
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo did you ever publish the datacenter price details ?
BingoBoingo: I don't recall if I did, will check and publish if not
shinohai: BingoBoingo: You think that 'terp of yours can get us in on the Venezuelan Gov't ICO ? xD
trinque has venezuelans living directly below. there was a long battle over whether THOOM THOOM THOOM was music
shinohai: trinque: I had the same issue with Mexicans. A little death metal solved it.
trinque: not familiar, only heard blaring out of lowriders now and then
BingoBoingo: ^ and asciilifeform before you ask, even if he is a spy he can't effectively because the girl he can't talk too is too smitten.
BingoBoingo: Poor girl is just torturing herself waiting for him to make a move.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Learn spanish, hang out with Brasileros who don't speak spanish
BingoBoingo: Apparently one can have fun in Punta Del Este with zero spanish provided they have a Trump budget, but it is a serious WTFism.
shinohai: Maybe he is still searching for an app for that!
BingoBoingo: And the Brasileros without spanish can usually get by on the latin language mutual intelligibity deal
BingoBoingo: And there's an old USian chasing 80 degree temps for his arthritis and going to AA meetings that at least made an effort at memorizing phrases before he fucked off to Buenos Aires
BingoBoingo: By all appearances though the Englishman is functionally taking his vacation on Facebook.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 18:07 asciilifeform: however this introduces explicit pointerism. ( though, i will add, NOT pointer-arithmetism )
mircea_popescu: stack as linked list has a notion of next item on stack, yes ?
mircea_popescu: ah you don't actually mean to use pointers, just a lisp-style memory emulator for the stack itself
mircea_popescu: whereby the jump is in the item pointed to, not in the mechanism of pointing
mircea_popescu: once you use "traditional" pointers, your "stack" is a heap.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 18:27 asciilifeform: speaking of which, could even have a stackmachine with circular ring for a stack.
mircea_popescu: note how ffa ends up satisfying the greenspun rule, through the predictable entry point.
mircea_popescu: why not actually do it then, and first construct an ada circular ring lisp-memory stack first ?
mircea_popescu: some possible things need to be made before it can be decided.
phf: aye, i'll marry keccak to vdiff today or tomorrow to get a poc out.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 18:54 asciilifeform: from pipeline-blowing pov -- expensive.
diana_coman: phf, those are the keccak transformations; do you need the actual sponge?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, yes, all that there is still only... first part
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform don't tell me you didn't take your volkskomputi to the commissariat for the mandatory urine injections or what was it.
diana_coman: padding, bitstream, sponge, oaep to follow; currently still in the works
phf: never mind then! i gotta figure out how to do the whole "file moved part" anyway, and i don't need a hashing function yet. i'm using a sha512 implementation from busybox
diana_coman: they will be grouped into as few chapters as possible of course
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:32 asciilifeform: apeloyee: the 'liable to change' thing was very much NOT part of my orig design for v.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:34 apeloyee: files are NOT INDEPENDENT. despite CVS and v pretending they are. this is a problem. you could have required some form of cryptographic commitment to either the tree state or even the antedecent patches themselves, but didn't
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite evident ; but yes, i believe wrong problem to solve. "oh lord, how could bits of code have an identity ?" "why ?" "so they could be my girflriends" "Come on!"
☟︎ mircea_popescu: the strong statement here is that the ~only~ possible identity bits of code have is based on ~personal memory~. to revisit the oft used bubblesort example -- any particular implementation of bubblesort IS bubblesort because ~you~ recognize it as such and for ~no other reason~, factual ~or possible~. consequently fits in head as the basis of code identity.
mircea_popescu: and this identity is also fluent, because different things are the same thing, such as no further than earlier the "you really want a lisp stack". this recognition is only there because of personal knowledge, and absent otherwise.
mircea_popescu: you could not have written such a tagging mechanism as it'd have permitted a machine to recognize the substance of what you were saying when discussing "pointers" which weren't.
mircea_popescu: and all this goes right into that older thread of ambiguity, orthogonality and language -- you can never make a language that's orthogonal and ~useful~ in the natural sense. let alone "that anyone'd want to use".
☟︎ mircea_popescu: (but since we're on it -- the enduring interest in obfuscated-c is strictly this, "let us try and write a novel in orthogonal language ; this should be done in c because it's very much not orthogonal". became a self-recursing joke, that the practitioners don't even properly understand, just sorta-feel. BECAUSE they talk about it in natural languages.)
phf: that would be quite a twist
shinohai: asciilifeform would construct a death-ray and obliterate him from afar.
phf: ascii vs brother doesn't strike me as that kind of relationship. more like "you have to learn much little one, and i have N years on you"
mircea_popescu: inb4 apeloyee comes in, goes "oh, but actually... yes", alf is forever floored.
mircea_popescu: bread and butter of cheap fiction, "you don't know who your brother is"
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> or is that just hollywoods << The Greeks did it!
mircea_popescu: i can't think of major examples outside of the star wars thing (coulkdn't think of that either until pointed out). commedia is mostly brothers.
phf: or lovers, like what is it, the two gentlemen of verona
mircea_popescu doesn't think greek tragedy is party to this discussion, but is overwhelmed by explaining why.
phf: or midsummer night's dream
mircea_popescu: if anyone is wondering, alf lives in a sausage plant. there's lots of meat.
phf: i half expect it to be some kind of kafka narrative, where, when not engaged with tmsr business, alf actually does some macabre butcher work involving big meaty hands and slabs
☟︎ shinohai: Heh, in my my mind I always imagined asciilifeform living in abattoir because of the "brb, meats"
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> if anyone is wondering, alf lives in a sausage plant. there's lots of meat. << been wondering if I should move in with him, or take bets on when he gets scurvy
BingoBoingo: From the WaPo: "Six buses operated by Silicon Valley tech companies to shuttle employees to their offices have been attacked on the highway over the past week. The California Highway Patrol reports that four Apple and one Google bus had their windows shattered on Tuesday by unidentified projectiles"
☟︎ shinohai: !!rate mats 3 #trilema - Never has let me go into battle with an empty war-chest.
mod6: mircea_popescu: also, fwiw, we might need to adjust our "NO '--- ' or '+++ ' to begin a line in a vpatch to "NO '-- ' or '++ '". There was a vpatch in development where my vtron choked on a line being added into a source file that began with '++', and with the diff '+', became '+++'. My vtron correctly choked here. But maybe a bit of an adjustment to the rule?
shinohai: !!v 2F07483E10CD3A025FAEE4979B80C922944C4199D4CA0C678A8CCF1BD47DF7FC
deedbot: shinohai updated rating of mats from 2 to 3 << #trilema - Never has let me go into battle with an empty war-chest.
mircea_popescu: mod6 the magic string diff uses is "+++ " ie three plusses AND A SPACE
mod6: yah, that's actually what it added up to: "+++ ", but no diff info / hash after it.
mod6: yah, food for thought here maybe.
mircea_popescu: sadly, until phf's improved diff hits the deck there's nothing we can do here.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:43 asciilifeform: fenómenos que "no tiene antecedentes" en el país << orly?
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:55 asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu's argument was that it is wrong to say that they could ~ever~ be properly independent. and that if they could be shown to be independent, they ought to be separate v-trees.
mircea_popescu: nothing prevents you from saying "this is the genesis of apeloyee's fantastical funicular, it consists of a cog i stole from alf's exceptional exsudator, some other bits i wrote myself and various parts i forgot where i stole" ; but something QUITE fundamental prevents you from writing down "include #fucksticks" and to have a helpful paperclip pop out of nowhere in your emacs guts and declare "this so far looks like you're pu
☟︎ mircea_popescu: because it'd need guile to do and guile is shit. if for no other reason. comprende ?
mircea_popescu: in other words, the only maker of independence in the realm of thought is the hand of man, and this can't be fixed.
mircea_popescu:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771941 << it means the bar for what may be acceptable primitives is slightly lower than before ; this is not necessarily avoidable though, the advantage of having alphabet starts around having twenty or so letters only ; fifty letter "alphabet" is not much better than 5000 hieroglyphery.
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:56 asciilifeform: however it DOES mean even ~more~ work for folx using v, than ever before. and not less.
mircea_popescu: consider concretely the case of eucrypt's keccak. diana_coman is writing it as a direct derivation off genesis, meaning on extant v impls if one wanted to import it they could import JUST it, without the rest of eucrypt (it'll be pulled in later through the usual procedure in eucrypt itself). superficially this may seem like it encourages phf to go "o i know, i'll just link keccak patch into my codebase rather than regring (i
☟︎ mircea_popescu: the problem is that later on, eucrypt's smg_keccak will be pulled into the main to be used for purposes ; if EVEN LATER it gets a patch, phf will then not actually have a way to seamlessly "get just the patch", he will have to regrind at that time anyway.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: ie, this "independent parts in an automatic fashion" is a hope impossible in practice. the only way he can have it is if HE reads it, as it is found wherever it is found (eucrypt as it happens here), and then HE puts it in, as a regrind, ie, yes, "de novo" item.
mircea_popescu: which is why the original "do not link across v trees"
diana_coman:
http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772485 <- after things are put together by human hand it takes human hand to take them apart, yes, unsurprising; point is it's enough to choose and pick out of the desired vpatch what is relevant (i.e. for keccak in this example) and that's as far as it goes
☝︎ a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:58 mircea_popescu: the problem is that later on, eucrypt's smg_keccak will be pulled into the main to be used for purposes ; if EVEN LATER it gets a patch, phf will then not actually have a way to seamlessly "get just the patch", he will have to regrind at that time anyway.
diana_coman: in the "it takes human hand"? the thing put together needs taken apart of similar nature
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:31 phf: i half expect it to be some kind of kafka narrative, where, when not engaged with tmsr business, alf actually does some macabre butcher work involving big meaty hands and slabs
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:33 BingoBoingo: From the WaPo: "Six buses operated by Silicon Valley tech companies to shuttle employees to their offices have been attacked on the highway over the past week. The California Highway Patrol reports that four Apple and one Google bus had their windows shattered on Tuesday by unidentified projectiles"
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:53 mircea_popescu: nothing prevents you from saying "this is the genesis of apeloyee's fantastical funicular, it consists of a cog i stole from alf's exceptional exsudator, some other bits i wrote myself and various parts i forgot where i stole" ; but something QUITE fundamental prevents you from writing down "include #fucksticks" and to have a helpful paperclip pop out of nowhere in your emacs guts and declare "this so far looks like you're pu
diana_coman: I always read asciilifeform's "meat" along the lines of "call of the annoying reality of existence in human form"
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:58 mircea_popescu: consider concretely the case of eucrypt's keccak. diana_coman is writing it as a direct derivation off genesis, meaning on extant v impls if one wanted to import it they could import JUST it, without the rest of eucrypt (it'll be pulled in later through the usual procedure in eucrypt itself). superficially this may seem like it encourages phf to go "o i know, i'll just link keccak patch into my codebase rather than regring (i
mircea_popescu: diana_coman obviously ; but the trick is that "meat" also means dick.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no such birth. all words are is empty coin, long bereft of any original gold, all that's left is the congeal spit of successive generations. thesis is in some trilema somwwhere
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, everything also means dick or cunt, depending on pov
diana_coman: see, there is also tea which is pointedly not meat!!
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 22:09 diana_coman: see, there is also tea which is pointedly not meat!!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no such "ghost of moses in the letters".
mircea_popescu: the only one who can decide that two texts are the same text is one versed in the text. that's why they even needed fucking monks in the first place.
mircea_popescu: in the same sense your copy of patent medicine still works.
mircea_popescu: then you bite the subtle bugs resulting from subtle manipulations of state at the outskirts, which is what nsa rats live off of.
mircea_popescu: two bitwise-identical strings are not thereby the same thing.
mircea_popescu: but this happens all the fucking time right here, too! take the... well i can't fucking find it now, but there's a line in the log where phf goes "hey, your trying to do the mp rant comes out short, you;'re not mp". why the fuck not! had all the bits!!1
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite evident ; but yes, i believe wrong problem to solve. "oh lord, how could bits of code have an identity ?" "why ?" "so they could be my girflriends" "Come on!"
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:35 asciilifeform: apeloyee: see the quite 'flammable' log from that thread. i put the burden of correct operation ~100% on the human operator.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform for one thing, v is a structured pile of signed tars.
mircea_popescu: no text is the "Sum" of its parts in any rigurously definition of sum.
mircea_popescu: note that you specifically want ~sources~ not binaries. why ?
mircea_popescu: "oh, more readable". this is bs, hence all your comments about "disasm" throughout up to today.
mircea_popescu: the only true knowledge of the machine's view is the binary. but you are not interested in that, you are interested in intension and a particular sort of meaning,
mircea_popescu: rather, interested in the most compact notation of intent
mircea_popescu: as a subpoint, it is true copy/pasteism makes muddled "authorship" socially acceptable, and this is a great thing, and the perfect bullet to kill usg."intellectual property" with ; but it does NOT make responsibility any weaker, and thereby feeds no rats.
mircea_popescu: i will not care one wit whether author of package i use copied or wrote offending bit. signed it -- that's that.
mircea_popescu: if this were true nuclear reactors would be fulla rats. they... aren't. gluon muddle, and yet...
mircea_popescu: this system is designed to work well, not to work thoroughly. it requires no such panopticonism as you envisage.
mircea_popescu: and whenever someone signs something not-good, ima have their head.
mircea_popescu: yes but the problem with this one is that it is fundamentally incompatible with reality.
mircea_popescu: this is like saying "moses fingered one". the idea is, something within your hand, not some sort of religious fiction.
mircea_popescu: leaving aside the problem of time in this system, which promises to be gnarly (time where ?), would it TRULY make you feel better about systemd if the blond schmuck whose name i forget claimed alien possession ?
mircea_popescu: how about this "mechanical borrowing" system you proposes ACTUALLY weakens responsibility, because the 15, instead of taking seriously their true deed, which IS in fact authorship-indistinguishable, rather aim to hide behind a claim of "hey, we merely work here, signing signatures" a sort of "well i really wanted to X and the only part Y available was Koch's so don't blame me"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no possibility of such learning.
mircea_popescu: or care. or in any other bakchand way re-import the empire of stupid into existence.
mircea_popescu: what is your standard of proof anyway ? suppose x claims that koch works for weimer ; and y claims weimer works for koch. how do you distinguish these claims ?
mircea_popescu: so then what specifically are you trying to translate into protocol here ?
mircea_popescu: change, yes. just not really know who made a particular genesis, is all.
mircea_popescu: children are born out of an unamed, indistinct wall of cunt. the only point of interest is which father signed off on it.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this planet ; the planet where men have tried for 50 centuries to tell the woman "make me a son, and one that's not idiotic, and not too expensive" and she brought whatever shrubbery she brought.
mircea_popescu: but the sheer insanity to attempt a protocol built on a knowledge that it dun work in the general case, but in some particulars. what is this, building unix ?!
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, as a matter of course, your protocol must work in all cases it purports to cover or it isn't.
mircea_popescu: it would appear to me the "copy what you want into your tree" provides exactly that.
mircea_popescu: note if you will that "bubblesort", while a fully defined symbol, does not actually denote any specific implementation as such.
mircea_popescu: this turns into an interesting inverse case of "the code is not the spec", whereby... the spec is not the code.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because in some parts they're fictitious (read : unknowable) histories.
mircea_popescu: but tell me asciilifeform who invented bubblesort ? who, "the egyptian" multiplication ? who, the lisp memory model ? who invented anything ?
mircea_popescu: so then you propose the xor variable flip was invented by whom ? what tree do i import when i do it ?
mircea_popescu: note though that there WERE some disputes re its utility/feasibility! that cropped up in discussion! remember ?
mircea_popescu: if your desire can't be made to work in elementary cases, how would it work at all, is the bojum here. what, xor assignment gets a free pass, but "any program longer than 6 lines magically becomes attributable" ?>
mircea_popescu: the ~type~ of problem that cropped up with the xor assignment (whereby -- careful at context X might shoot self in foot) is ~exactly~ and with no remainder the type of problem we are fighting, whereby "oh, this ssl totally works for rsa, except... when it does not"
mircea_popescu: there is no implicit attribution of text ~specifically because~ there is no ghost of moses caught in the letters anymore than there's soul intertwined in the brain.
mircea_popescu: say it in the fucking comments of ffa, not here, at that.
mircea_popescu: what literate code is all about, nothing keeps you from putting a philosophy.preamble file in there.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: and, back to the trunk, we've not even discussed the horror of translation. suppose you write a thing, in ada. suppose another, who works on a lisp tree, takes your thing and identically translates it to lisp (here defined, that on any correct machine his code will in all cases behave indentically to yours). what's your v to do here ?
mircea_popescu: suppose yet another one takes your thing, fixes a bug, and says "this genesis also includes exactly alf's thing verbatim, except for this subtle bug i fixed". thereby... these are different, yes ?
mircea_popescu: man saying "this is of x" is the only marginal history available here.
mircea_popescu: paternity is purely conventional in this strong sense. among us, we may think r,s & a invented rsa. among some gray beards somewhere else, they may well know better.
mircea_popescu: yes, but the code we review is not strictly speaking text.
mircea_popescu: i can't be the only one who translates code as a routine attempt at understanding wtf.
mircea_popescu: what do you mean "what it looks like". it looks like, say, v!
mircea_popescu has been encouraging people to do just that since just about its inception
mircea_popescu: well, the attempt to translate v proved itself extremely productive neh.
mircea_popescu: and yet a bundle of c that produces exact same binary as your ada compiler does -- could be written
mircea_popescu: yes, well, computer languages are supposed to not do that.
mircea_popescu: if they were properly orthogonal-ized they would not, is the whole idea.
mircea_popescu: for instance -- leaky machine will make your rsa impl leak
mircea_popescu: we are currently handwaving this, but it's there alright.
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 23:29 mircea_popescu: "oh, von neumann invented the 486". really tyvm.
mircea_popescu: btw, apropos of unrelated ancient thread : does your hatred of cyclotrons extend to desy as well ? no gluons for you ?