deedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2146 << Loper OS - Rodenticide with the Seiko DPU414 Tape Printer.
mircea_popescu: you know ftr trb node state of blockpool has improved tremendously.
asciilifeform noticed
mircea_popescu: cool deal.
asciilifeform: and ohai mircea_popescu !
asciilifeform: saw any crocodiles ?
mircea_popescu: actually... just macaws. lots and lots and lots of macaws.
asciilifeform: neato.
danielpbarron: !!rate TomServo 1 fg customer
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/7LV3i/?raw=true
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771636 << i have nfi what a binace is and i see no problem with random numbers fiatists assign to bitcoin fluctuating ~randomly.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 11:06 Techman: mircea_popescu: what isy our take on bitcoin dropping below 10K (at least on binance)
mircea_popescu: o check it out asciilifeform "cardano" the coin is up 25%!!1
mircea_popescu: "WORTH ALMOST TWO BILLION"!!11
asciilifeform: lol!!
asciilifeform: how is mpexcoin doing tho.
asciilifeform: and bbeterium.
mircea_popescu: https://github.com/input-output-hk/cardano-sl/ << for ulterior lulz
asciilifeform: haskell no less
mircea_popescu: "Cardano is a decentralised public blockchain and cryptocurrency project and is fully open source. Cardano is developing a smart contract platform which seeks to deliver more advanced features than any protocol previously developed. It is the first blockchain platform to evolve out of a scientific philosophy and a research-first driven approach. Thedevelopment team consists of a large global collective of expert engineers and
mircea_popescu: researchers."
asciilifeform: https://cardanofoundation.org also, didjaknow!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771642 << i don't see a problem with it necessarily, but it's not clear what may hide under rock #2. try and see i guess ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 13:09 esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771055 << My thought was to scrap the current client in favor of a customized one, with eucrypt protocol as the backbone. Is this 1. not what you want, or 2. a bad idea?
asciilifeform: 'The registered office of Cardano Foundation is: Cardano Stiftung, Gubelstrasse 11, 6300 Zug, Switzerland.' classy.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform gotta have a foundation like tits gotta have a boar.
asciilifeform: verily.
mircea_popescu: crypto ag is zug-erstrasse, 6312 gubel, swizerland.
mircea_popescu: geddit ?
asciilifeform: lol!
asciilifeform: holyfuq it ACTUALLY is..
asciilifeform: per https://www.crypto.ch/en/contact
asciilifeform: pretty great.
mircea_popescu: :)
asciilifeform: a+++ trololol
mircea_popescu: they just play trivial pursuit see.
mircea_popescu: or what's the one with the mixing.
mircea_popescu: o right. SYMMETRICAL CIPHER.
asciilifeform: to think, somebody sat, sewed this.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771644 << nah not at all. just proposed what might've been an easy entry point. you dun like it you dun have to.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 13:15 esthlos: Rereading, seems clear that you want eulora's graphics engine.
asciilifeform: previously i had it filed under perlisms.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it rather looks like the elaboratest trollcoin so far.
asciilifeform: afaik gold star champion , aha.
mircea_popescu: oh, damn, remember days of GoldStar
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771704 << quite evidently that.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 15:30 asciilifeform: has apeloyee found a specific instance where it can be made to eggog ? or is this a hypothetical 'once less clueful people start changing things' observation ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771717 << this is a great win, i'm glad he stuck with it.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 15:33 asciilifeform: really all routines oughta behave consistently in re input-overwrite.
mircea_popescu: saying "well i can't protect car from usage of idiots" is one thing, but having the gas and break pedals not ever interchange is the other thing.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771729 << only sorta.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 15:39 apeloyee: does gnat provide a facility to check aliasing at runtime?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771743 << no such wonder exists.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 15:50 apeloyee: well, ideally it would have a "No_Out_Arguments_Aliasing" restriction which would insert runtime checks
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771820 << one for each suspenders.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 17:42 asciilifeform: possibly there ought to be not 1 but... 4 null cells
mircea_popescu: ima have to finish this megalog tomorro, too exhausted.
asciilifeform: goodnight mircea_popescu
asciilifeform also to bed.
ave1: http://ave1.org/2018/building-gnat-on-musl-now-with-a-signature/ script to build GNAT, now with signature and the result can compile ch1
asciilifeform: ave1: neat
shinohai: http://archive.is/n3JWg <<< Should just go ahead and make Barry Shillbert an official member of the Trump admin.
asciilifeform: 'The United States federal government has paid approximately half a million dollars to a private corporation to help various agencies conduct surveillance on the Bitcoin blockchain' << pretty lulzy, that's, e.g., 3 janitors, 2 clerks, 1 intern, for 1yr
asciilifeform: and 'conduct surveillance' on publicly broadcast item, pretty rich.
asciilifeform: oldscam, however, is old:
asciilifeform: !#s noblis
a111: 13 results for "noblis", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=noblis
shinohai: hah yeah, forgot about that.
asciilifeform: 'People who wish to avoid financial surveillance should consider using privacy-centric cryptocurrencies with opaque blockchains, such as Monero' << lol, oblig money shot saved for end
asciilifeform had nfi that the monerists were still around
asciilifeform: didn't that nonsense implode..? or was that z-somethingorother.
asciilifeform has the 2 or 3 different 'z-' shitcoins perma-symlinked in head
shinohai: "A promise from the SCAM coin team: We won't sleep until SCAM coin has been successfully listed on at least one shitty exchange." <<< Truth in advertising now I guess.
shinohai: (New ICO token)
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes dja happen to have a link to the original case of http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-18#1569630 ? iirc you reported it, maybe 2014s☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-11-18 15:15 mircea_popescu: gotta kyc in case the fat tard over at the us park administration gets tired of asking for special booth at burning man and wants to peruse pics of subtards licking fish through a screen of milk, gotta have the pics ready for him!!11
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-06-28#1180271 possibly☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-06-28 07:17 punkman: http://www.rgj.com/longform/news/2015/06/26/blm-wants-vip-compound-burning-man/29318493/
BingoBoingo: !~ticker --market all
jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 11800.0, vol: 28608.75009947 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 11487.0, vol: 103165.57225643 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 11815.0, vol: 9783.20905574 | Volume-weighted last average: 11572.9257097
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2018/how-to-satisfyingly-have-sex-with-a-girl-under-12/ << Trilema - How to satisfyingly have sex with a girl under 12
mircea_popescu rests easy in the knowledge he's penned the most outrageous item ever written in english, by such a margin as to permanently defy competition
ben_vulpes tips hat
asciilifeform: funnily enuff this is maybe the 5th or 6th trilema piece in a row that asciilifeform finished eating just prior to deedbot displaying
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know what, i think that may be it.
asciilifeform: and it is pretty great
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform iirc rss delay is 15mins
shinohai: I wonder how long it would stay up if I posted it to r/TwoXChromosomes
mircea_popescu: reddit is very VERY butthurt at http://trilema.com/2014/spamming-reddit-an-experiment/ has trilema on some kind of master kill list.
mircea_popescu: as if.
asciilifeform: possibly gold medal trololol against angloroaches.
asciilifeform: ( in re the latest article )
shinohai: In which mircea_popescu demonstrates the `Loli-pop`
mircea_popescu: i see it takes teh forum 5 minutes to figure out the easter egg in there...
BingoBoingo baking blog post.
mircea_popescu: so is diana_coman ; and earlier ave1 ! truly spectacular republica output these days!
diana_coman: taking of baking, these eucrypt blog posts feel like cozonaci : always sort of growing more than I expect them, no matter what adjustment to expectations previous batch caused
diana_coman: ugh, talking*
mircea_popescu: ahahaha word.
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/01/18/and-the-residency-process-has-started/ << Bingo Blog - And The Residency Process Has Started
asciilifeform: in other noose, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2146&cpage=1#comment-18757
BingoBoingo baking next post about the very sad hombre de Inglaterra
asciilifeform: oh hey congrats BingoBoingo
ben_vulpes: http://archive.is/Eei43 << expensive afternoon for the cops
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: It's just a step
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo did you ever publish the datacenter price details ?
BingoBoingo: I don't recall if I did, will check and publish if not
BingoBoingo: Oh, sad Englishman has to wait
BingoBoingo: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/11/16/tbi-mid-november-update/ << Yeah, there's more numbers now.
BingoBoingo: baking
shinohai: BingoBoingo: You think that 'terp of yours can get us in on the Venezuelan Gov't ICO ? xD
BingoBoingo: They leave Venezuala for reasons
shinohai: ikr
trinque has venezuelans living directly below. there was a long battle over whether THOOM THOOM THOOM was music
trinque: it is not.
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/01/18/datacenter-costs/ << Bingo Blog - Datacenter Costs
BingoBoingo: ^ For everyone.
shinohai: trinque: I had the same issue with Mexicans. A little death metal solved it.
BingoBoingo: trinque: Are you familiar with Regaeton?
BingoBoingo: Or however the Brasileros spell it
trinque: not familiar, only heard blaring out of lowriders now and then
BingoBoingo: It's the default Brasilero music
asciilifeform: unrelatedly , asciilifeform recently found out that you can still buy old-style SLC ('single layer') ssd. 100,000+ write cycle endurance instead of the ubiquitous MLC ('multi layer') ~10,000 . for approx 8x the cost. has, supposedly, considerably faster writes, also.
deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/01/18/the-sad-man-from-england/ << Bingo Blog - The Sad Man From England
BingoBoingo: ^ and asciilifeform before you ask, even if he is a spy he can't effectively because the girl he can't talk too is too smitten.
BingoBoingo: Poor girl is just torturing herself waiting for him to make a move.
asciilifeform: lol dafuq to do in uruguay with 0 spanish
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Learn spanish, hang out with Brasileros who don't speak spanish
BingoBoingo: Apparently one can have fun in Punta Del Este with zero spanish provided they have a Trump budget, but it is a serious WTFism.
shinohai: Maybe he is still searching for an app for that!
asciilifeform: even on pnoje there are language gamez etc
BingoBoingo: And the Brasileros without spanish can usually get by on the latin language mutual intelligibity deal
BingoBoingo: And there's an old USian chasing 80 degree temps for his arthritis and going to AA meetings that at least made an effort at memorizing phrases before he fucked off to Buenos Aires
BingoBoingo: By all appearances though the Englishman is functionally taking his vacation on Facebook.
deedbot: http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/01/18/eucrypt-chapter-6-keccak-transformations/ << Ossasepia - EuCrypt Chapter 6: Keccak Transformations
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771854 << will be hard to keep at bay.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 18:07 asciilifeform: however this introduces explicit pointerism. ( though, i will add, NOT pointer-arithmetism )
mircea_popescu: phf check it out, keccak published.
asciilifeform: oh hey hey hey lbj
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: why hard ?
mircea_popescu: stack as linked list has a notion of next item on stack, yes ?
asciilifeform: right. but... i'ma let mircea_popescu eat rest of the thread
mircea_popescu eats then
mircea_popescu: ah you don't actually mean to use pointers, just a lisp-style memory emulator for the stack itself
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : you can trivially implement linked list without -- properly speaking -- pointers, but with integers, this also came up in the earlier 'lisp in ada' thread )
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: whereby the jump is in the item pointed to, not in the mechanism of pointing
asciilifeform: so long as you don't use the heap, you more or less can dispense with traditional pointers.
mircea_popescu: once you use "traditional" pointers, your "stack" is a heap.
asciilifeform: ( the ada passing by reference semantics give you almost anything that c programmers typically want from pointerism )
asciilifeform: ada working in normal mode typically won't even let you take a pointer of an object on the stack.
asciilifeform: ( you have to satisfy the compiler that it has exactly same 'life' as the item pointed-to. and in practice this is quite difficult. )
asciilifeform: currently ffa has 0 pointerism.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771869 << thinking about this, it seems that both a) a re-implementation of the lisp memory model is unavoidable for any serious purpose and b) the place where the rewrite will start is the stack ; are true.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 18:27 asciilifeform: speaking of which, could even have a stackmachine with circular ring for a stack.
asciilifeform: it's next on asciilifeform's conveyor after ffa. ( this should not discourage anybody else from writing adatronic lisps of whatever type, however )
mircea_popescu: note how ffa ends up satisfying the greenspun rule, through the predictable entry point.
asciilifeform: it already lives in the forth hole, lol
mircea_popescu: why not actually do it then, and first construct an ada circular ring lisp-memory stack first ?
asciilifeform: ( i considered lispism, rejected for the given application strictly on account of moving-parts-count , 'p' gotta have parachute-level simplicity )
mircea_popescu: seems your stack wants to meld into that anyway.
asciilifeform: it's a variant. not currently convinced that it is The Right Thing.
mircea_popescu: so write it as a side point and see.
asciilifeform: aha, it's on the side-point list.
mircea_popescu: some possible things need to be made before it can be decided.
asciilifeform: i got a megatonne of those . ( e.g. unrolled comba )
mircea_popescu: seems one of the most promising.
phf: aye, i'll marry keccak to vdiff today or tomorrow to get a poc out.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771889 << that's ok, pipeline permablown anyway.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 18:54 asciilifeform: from pipeline-blowing pov -- expensive.
diana_coman: phf, those are the keccak transformations; do you need the actual sponge?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: apparently not. hence why unrolled comba was iirc 2x+ speedup
asciilifeform: (unrolling doesn't do anything useful on archs with no pipeline)
mircea_popescu: diana_coman ah, is it a two part item then ?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, yes, all that there is still only... first part
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform don't tell me you didn't take your volkskomputi to the commissariat for the mandatory urine injections or what was it.
diana_coman: padding, bitstream, sponge, oaep to follow; currently still in the works
mircea_popescu: a damn, seems i shot too quickly. sorry phf
mircea_popescu is overexcitable
phf: never mind then! i gotta figure out how to do the whole "file moved part" anyway, and i don't need a hashing function yet. i'm using a sha512 implementation from busybox
diana_coman: they will be grouped into as few chapters as possible of course
asciilifeform: but but, does spreading work yet!11
mircea_popescu: diana_coman cool deal then.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771903 << because didn't seriously think of the particular problem, which happens with prototypes.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:32 asciilifeform: apeloyee: the 'liable to change' thing was very much NOT part of my orig design for v.
asciilifeform: worse, was thinking of very different ( and probably unsolvable ) problem ( 'how to give arbitrarily small pieces of code, a perma-history' )
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771907 << v is not at all pretending they are ; that's accidental misconstruction.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:34 apeloyee: files are NOT INDEPENDENT. despite CVS and v pretending they are. this is a problem. you could have required some form of cryptographic commitment to either the tree state or even the antedecent patches themselves, but didn't
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite evident ; but yes, i believe wrong problem to solve. "oh lord, how could bits of code have an identity ?" "why ?" "so they could be my girflriends" "Come on!"
mircea_popescu: the strong statement here is that the ~only~ possible identity bits of code have is based on ~personal memory~. to revisit the oft used bubblesort example -- any particular implementation of bubblesort IS bubblesort because ~you~ recognize it as such and for ~no other reason~, factual ~or possible~. consequently fits in head as the basis of code identity.
asciilifeform: in what other way does anything fit-in-head ?
mircea_popescu: and this identity is also fluent, because different things are the same thing, such as no further than earlier the "you really want a lisp stack". this recognition is only there because of personal knowledge, and absent otherwise.
mircea_popescu: you could not have written such a tagging mechanism as it'd have permitted a machine to recognize the substance of what you were saying when discussing "pointers" which weren't.
mircea_popescu: and all this goes right into that older thread of ambiguity, orthogonality and language -- you can never make a language that's orthogonal and ~useful~ in the natural sense. let alone "that anyone'd want to use".
mircea_popescu: (but since we're on it -- the enduring interest in obfuscated-c is strictly this, "let us try and write a novel in orthogonal language ; this should be done in c because it's very much not orthogonal". became a self-recursing joke, that the practitioners don't even properly understand, just sorta-feel. BECAUSE they talk about it in natural languages.)
mircea_popescu: incidentally asciilifeform is apeloyee actually http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aascii+brother ?
phf: that would be quite a twist
asciilifeform: nope
mircea_popescu: imagine, there's two of these out there!
shinohai: asciilifeform would construct a death-ray and obliterate him from afar.
mircea_popescu: he would ?
phf: ascii vs brother doesn't strike me as that kind of relationship. more like "you have to learn much little one, and i have N years on you"
mircea_popescu: but that's only one pov.
mircea_popescu: inb4 apeloyee comes in, goes "oh, but actually... yes", alf is forever floored.
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: bread and butter of cheap fiction, "you don't know who your brother is"
asciilifeform: i thought it was typically fathers
asciilifeform: or is that just hollywoods
mircea_popescu: hm.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> or is that just hollywoods << The Greeks did it!
mircea_popescu: i can't think of major examples outside of the star wars thing (coulkdn't think of that either until pointed out). commedia is mostly brothers.
phf: or lovers, like what is it, the two gentlemen of verona
asciilifeform brb,meat
mircea_popescu doesn't think greek tragedy is party to this discussion, but is overwhelmed by explaining why.
phf: or midsummer night's dream
mircea_popescu: if anyone is wondering, alf lives in a sausage plant. there's lots of meat.
phf: i half expect it to be some kind of kafka narrative, where, when not engaged with tmsr business, alf actually does some macabre butcher work involving big meaty hands and slabs
shinohai: Heh, in my my mind I always imagined asciilifeform living in abattoir because of the "brb, meats"
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> if anyone is wondering, alf lives in a sausage plant. there's lots of meat. << been wondering if I should move in with him, or take bets on when he gets scurvy
shinohai: lol
BingoBoingo: From the WaPo: "Six buses operated by Silicon Valley tech companies to shuttle employees to their offices have been attacked on the highway over the past week. The California Highway Patrol reports that four Apple and one Google bus had their windows shattered on Tuesday by unidentified projectiles"
shinohai: !!rate mats 3 #trilema - Never has let me go into battle with an empty war-chest.
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ji5c9/?raw=true
mod6: mircea_popescu: also, fwiw, we might need to adjust our "NO '--- ' or '+++ ' to begin a line in a vpatch to "NO '-- ' or '++ '". There was a vpatch in development where my vtron choked on a line being added into a source file that began with '++', and with the diff '+', became '+++'. My vtron correctly choked here. But maybe a bit of an adjustment to the rule?
shinohai: !!v 2F07483E10CD3A025FAEE4979B80C922944C4199D4CA0C678A8CCF1BD47DF7FC
deedbot: shinohai updated rating of mats from 2 to 3 << #trilema - Never has let me go into battle with an empty war-chest.
shinohai tips hat to mats
mircea_popescu: mod6 the magic string diff uses is "+++ " ie three plusses AND A SPACE
mod6: yah, that's actually what it added up to: "+++ ", but no diff info / hash after it.
mircea_popescu: hm.
mircea_popescu: well, this is the curse of magic words.
mod6: yah, food for thought here maybe.
mircea_popescu: which line was it ?
mod6: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ZvDPR/?raw=true << diana_coman has all the details.
mircea_popescu: ah
mircea_popescu: yeah, looks like a killer.
mircea_popescu: sadly, until phf's improved diff hits the deck there's nothing we can do here.
mod6: *nod* sounds good.
mod6: Thanks!
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771920 << quite rly ; the south american south is remarkably peaceful, nobody needs (or wants) them for much.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:43 asciilifeform: fenómenos que "no tiene antecedentes" en el país << orly?
mircea_popescu: pais is uruguay not you know, brazil.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771939 << this is quite it, for half of the problem ; for the other half -- ANYTHING is independent if you make it so, just put it in your genesis.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:55 asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu's argument was that it is wrong to say that they could ~ever~ be properly independent. and that if they could be shown to be independent, they ought to be separate v-trees.
mircea_popescu: nothing prevents you from saying "this is the genesis of apeloyee's fantastical funicular, it consists of a cog i stole from alf's exceptional exsudator, some other bits i wrote myself and various parts i forgot where i stole" ; but something QUITE fundamental prevents you from writing down "include #fucksticks" and to have a helpful paperclip pop out of nowhere in your emacs guts and declare "this so far looks like you're pu
mircea_popescu: lling in stallman's deplorable dropsy".
mircea_popescu: because it'd need guile to do and guile is shit. if for no other reason. comprende ?
mircea_popescu: in other words, the only maker of independence in the realm of thought is the hand of man, and this can't be fixed.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771941 << it means the bar for what may be acceptable primitives is slightly lower than before ; this is not necessarily avoidable though, the advantage of having alphabet starts around having twenty or so letters only ; fifty letter "alphabet" is not much better than 5000 hieroglyphery.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:56 asciilifeform: however it DOES mean even ~more~ work for folx using v, than ever before. and not less.
mircea_popescu: consider concretely the case of eucrypt's keccak. diana_coman is writing it as a direct derivation off genesis, meaning on extant v impls if one wanted to import it they could import JUST it, without the rest of eucrypt (it'll be pulled in later through the usual procedure in eucrypt itself). superficially this may seem like it encourages phf to go "o i know, i'll just link keccak patch into my codebase rather than regring (i
mircea_popescu: e, copy/paste) it".
mircea_popescu: the problem is that later on, eucrypt's smg_keccak will be pulled into the main to be used for purposes ; if EVEN LATER it gets a patch, phf will then not actually have a way to seamlessly "get just the patch", he will have to regrind at that time anyway.
mircea_popescu: ie, this "independent parts in an automatic fashion" is a hope impossible in practice. the only way he can have it is if HE reads it, as it is found wherever it is found (eucrypt as it happens here), and then HE puts it in, as a regrind, ie, yes, "de novo" item.
mircea_popescu: which is why the original "do not link across v trees"
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772485 <- after things are put together by human hand it takes human hand to take them apart, yes, unsurprising; point is it's enough to choose and pick out of the desired vpatch what is relevant (i.e. for keccak in this example) and that's as far as it goes☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:58 mircea_popescu: the problem is that later on, eucrypt's smg_keccak will be pulled into the main to be used for purposes ; if EVEN LATER it gets a patch, phf will then not actually have a way to seamlessly "get just the patch", he will have to regrind at that time anyway.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman wgat "it" is here discussed ?
diana_coman: in the "it takes human hand"? the thing put together needs taken apart of similar nature
mircea_popescu: point is it's enough to choose <
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772449 << normally 'meatspace' but i like phf's picture.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:31 phf: i half expect it to be some kind of kafka narrative, where, when not engaged with tmsr business, alf actually does some macabre butcher work involving big meaty hands and slabs
asciilifeform: ( and it ain't too far from the troof... )
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772453 << this has been a regular thing since at least '14☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:33 BingoBoingo: From the WaPo: "Six buses operated by Silicon Valley tech companies to shuttle employees to their offices have been attacked on the highway over the past week. The California Highway Patrol reports that four Apple and one Google bus had their windows shattered on Tuesday by unidentified projectiles"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772477 << in ideal vtron, the 'and i stole x from a, y from b...' is protocolic, rather than promisetronic. i.e. abolition of eyeball-powered diff.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:53 mircea_popescu: nothing prevents you from saying "this is the genesis of apeloyee's fantastical funicular, it consists of a cog i stole from alf's exceptional exsudator, some other bits i wrote myself and various parts i forgot where i stole" ; but something QUITE fundamental prevents you from writing down "include #fucksticks" and to have a helpful paperclip pop out of nowhere in your emacs guts and declare "this so far looks like you're pu
asciilifeform: eyeball-powered diff, when there is a mechanical one, is nuttery
diana_coman: I always read asciilifeform's "meat" along the lines of "call of the annoying reality of existence in human form"
asciilifeform: diana_coman: this is correct picture.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there can't be such a wonderous protocol. in no small part because the PRINCIPAL FUNCTION of the human hand is http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-10#1768461☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-10 16:41 hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-10#1768160 << haha well this answers http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-09#1767425 then. 0 useful.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772483 << it's still annoying that , if i import it, and then years later query 'origin' of something, it only can trace back to my own genesis. and not to birth.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:58 mircea_popescu: consider concretely the case of eucrypt's keccak. diana_coman is writing it as a direct derivation off genesis, meaning on extant v impls if one wanted to import it they could import JUST it, without the rest of eucrypt (it'll be pulled in later through the usual procedure in eucrypt itself). superficially this may seem like it encourages phf to go "o i know, i'll just link keccak patch into my codebase rather than regring (i
mircea_popescu: diana_coman obviously ; but the trick is that "meat" also means dick.
asciilifeform: the only organ made of meat!11
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no such birth. all words are is empty coin, long bereft of any original gold, all that's left is the congeal spit of successive generations. thesis is in some trilema somwwhere
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is no way to weasel out of the fact that the info is available, but simply ignored by ineptly made vtron.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, everything also means dick or cunt, depending on pov
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform show me this.
asciilifeform: will show, after tea , brb
diana_coman: see, there is also tea which is pointedly not meat!!
mircea_popescu: that's when he meditates over the leaves.
asciilifeform: lol
asciilifeform: re earlier item -- if i want to demonstrate that 'alf's exceptional exsudator' consists of diana_coman's magic prime number maker, all 100,000 ln of it verbatim, plus 5 ln of asciilifeform's , this is now a proposition that has to be proven manually. whereas theoretically it is a mechanically resolvable q.
asciilifeform: and therefore ought to be resolvable mechanically as part of ordinary v operation.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772514 >> oblig >> http://pbfcomics.com/comics/the-golden-ticket☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 22:09 diana_coman: see, there is also tea which is pointedly not meat!!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no such "ghost of moses in the letters".
mircea_popescu: the only one who can decide that two texts are the same text is one versed in the text. that's why they even needed fucking monks in the first place.
asciilifeform: can proclaim 'there is not' all you like. my copy of diff still works.
mircea_popescu: in the same sense your copy of patent medicine still works.
mircea_popescu: yes -- it does work, in the way such works work.
mircea_popescu: then you bite the subtle bugs resulting from subtle manipulations of state at the outskirts, which is what nsa rats live off of.
asciilifeform: if 2 strings are bitwise-identical -- they are the same. if mircea_popescu in his own house insists that trained gurlz with magnifying glasses compare them, before he will consider them to be same, that is his biznis
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nope. you find the subtle-manipulators and string'em up.
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing. because, http://trilema.com/2014/pro-idiotas-which-obviously-means-people-who-have-ideas-ie-idiots/
mircea_popescu: two bitwise-identical strings are not thereby the same thing.
asciilifeform: and nomoar 'subtle'-anythings at the edges.
mircea_popescu: if i say it -- it's a thing. if not.. hurr.
asciilifeform: afaik the 'idiot comes up with worthwhile item by accident' is a wholly imaginary problem. never seems to actually happen.
trinque: ahembitcoinahem
asciilifeform: trinque: entirely conceivable that it was an edison-like production
asciilifeform: ( the 1 item d00d actually came up with, phonograph, was made by hired hands. the man could not machine to save his life )
asciilifeform: the 'bitcoin by lone idiot' model cannot be ruled out , but nothing requires us to eat it by default.
mircea_popescu: but this happens all the fucking time right here, too! take the... well i can't fucking find it now, but there's a line in the log where phf goes "hey, your trying to do the mp rant comes out short, you;'re not mp". why the fuck not! had all the bits!!1
mircea_popescu: it happens A LOT more often than you count.
asciilifeform: evidently not-all, neh
mircea_popescu: all is an undefined symbol here.
asciilifeform: i'ma approach from different angle : mircea_popescu , what do you think is the advantage of v over mere pile of signed tars ?
asciilifeform: the only thing it's got, is the deltas. and i can't see why they shouldn't 'go back to moses' if this is physically possible.
asciilifeform: at the same time i dun think that i actually disagree with mircea_popescu re the granularity. we don't have the tech to make granularity 'at procedure level' work.
asciilifeform: i'd like to revisit upstack , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772421 << this is somewhat of a misconception. asciilifeform did not salivate over a 'programmer's paradise' when wrote v. on the contrary. v , as he pictured it, is a weapon of rodenticidal war. specifically to ferret out and neutralize not only the compromised people, but the politically unreliable and the dubious of whatever type. hence the focus on attribution, and☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 20:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite evident ; but yes, i believe wrong problem to solve. "oh lord, how could bits of code have an identity ?" "why ?" "so they could be my girflriends" "Come on!"
asciilifeform: the desire to abolish cutandpasteism.
asciilifeform: hence design decisions like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771908 . the expectation is that the dubious people who 'live on the edges', are GONE.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-17 19:35 asciilifeform: apeloyee: see the quite 'flammable' log from that thread. i put the burden of correct operation ~100% on the human operator.
asciilifeform: and anybody found 'edging' is held to answer.
asciilifeform: cutandpasteism makes muddled authorship socially acceptable, and this in fact is what rats feed on.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform for one thing, v is a structured pile of signed tars.
asciilifeform: may as well also say 'of bytes' lol
mircea_popescu: of words.
asciilifeform: it ain't the sum of the parts.
mircea_popescu: no text is the "Sum" of its parts in any rigurously definition of sum.
asciilifeform: dunno, redditola comes close
mircea_popescu: note that you specifically want ~sources~ not binaries. why ?
asciilifeform: deltas.
asciilifeform: ~minimal~ deltas.
mircea_popescu: "oh, more readable". this is bs, hence all your comments about "disasm" throughout up to today.
asciilifeform: disasms are actually a bitch to diff.
asciilifeform: even when they differ by 1bit.
mircea_popescu: the only true knowledge of the machine's view is the binary. but you are not interested in that, you are interested in intension and a particular sort of meaning,
asciilifeform: interested in the most compact accessible diff representation.
asciilifeform: whichever that happens to be.
mircea_popescu: rather, interested in the most compact notation of intent
mircea_popescu: as opposed to most accurate description of function.
asciilifeform: ( compactness both of the diff and of the wholes that were diffed. )
mircea_popescu: as a subpoint, it is true copy/pasteism makes muddled "authorship" socially acceptable, and this is a great thing, and the perfect bullet to kill usg."intellectual property" with ; but it does NOT make responsibility any weaker, and thereby feeds no rats.
asciilifeform: this is the part i dunget.
mircea_popescu: i will not care one wit whether author of package i use copied or wrote offending bit. signed it -- that's that.
asciilifeform: all muddles feed rats.
mircea_popescu: if this were true nuclear reactors would be fulla rats. they... aren't. gluon muddle, and yet...
asciilifeform: precisely because they dilute the responsibility.
mircea_popescu: how ?
asciilifeform: the 1 usg mole who inserts boobytrap, and the 15 chekists who failed to find him, in my book do NOT have equal responsibility.
mircea_popescu: why do you imagine you'd even see all of these ?
asciilifeform: the 15 are to answer for ~their~ sin.
mircea_popescu: the 2 who failed to find, whom you rated, you unrate.
mircea_popescu: this system is designed to work well, not to work thoroughly. it requires no such panopticonism as you envisage.
asciilifeform: well in cutandpasteism world, there is not 1 mole and 15 chekists. there are 16 signers, is all.
mircea_popescu: quite so.
asciilifeform: if you refuse to distinguish authorship from signature.
asciilifeform: and this is The Wrong Thing.
mircea_popescu: and whenever someone signs something not-good, ima have their head.
asciilifeform: i'd rather have 1 usg head and 15 living friends.
mircea_popescu: this is a hallucinated counterworld.
asciilifeform: all hypothetical worlds are hallucinated, lol
mircea_popescu: yes but the problem with this one is that it is fundamentally incompatible with reality.
asciilifeform: howssat
mircea_popescu: how do you propose to distinguish one among the 16 ?
asciilifeform: 1 originated. the rest not.
mircea_popescu: this is like saying "moses fingered one". the idea is, something within your hand, not some sort of religious fiction.
asciilifeform: mr.x signed 'i wrote ....' , 15 checkists signed 'i witness thereby that mr.x last night had wrote...'
asciilifeform: the time parameter is real.
asciilifeform: one's a sig, 15 are sigs of a sig.
asciilifeform: physically separable entities.
mircea_popescu: leaving aside the problem of time in this system, which promises to be gnarly (time where ?), would it TRULY make you feel better about systemd if the blond schmuck whose name i forget claimed alien possession ?
asciilifeform: i'm unaware of any muddle re whodunit in systemdism
asciilifeform: the perp is loud, proud.
mircea_popescu: question stands as asked.
asciilifeform: learning 'on whose orders' mole worked, is not valueless
mircea_popescu: how about this "mechanical borrowing" system you proposes ACTUALLY weakens responsibility, because the 15, instead of taking seriously their true deed, which IS in fact authorship-indistinguishable, rather aim to hide behind a claim of "hey, we merely work here, signing signatures" a sort of "well i really wanted to X and the only part Y available was Koch's so don't blame me"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no possibility of such learning.
asciilifeform: without attribution , it is impossible to determine who even ~is~ the mole.
mircea_popescu: or care. or in any other bakchand way re-import the empire of stupid into existence.
asciilifeform: because any given item can have 'simply appeared'
asciilifeform: the idea is to expunge anyone who so much as shows a hint of 'i merely work here', as an unreliable element.
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: if you even have them within smelling distance, your system is broken.
mircea_popescu: what is your standard of proof anyway ? suppose x claims that koch works for weimer ; and y claims weimer works for koch. how do you distinguish these claims ?
asciilifeform: obviously can't distinguish. not unless all 3 are in the room, hanging upside down and plugged into the mains. and perhaps not even then.
mircea_popescu: so then what specifically are you trying to translate into protocol here ?
asciilifeform: what i want is more modest thing -- to know who made a particular change. in all cases.
mircea_popescu: change, yes. just not really know who made a particular genesis, is all.
mircea_popescu: the goddess made all genesises.
asciilifeform: incl the change from nonexistence.
mircea_popescu: this can not be had.
asciilifeform: in the general case, cannot
asciilifeform: in particular cases - can.
mircea_popescu: children are born out of an unamed, indistinct wall of cunt. the only point of interest is which father signed off on it.
asciilifeform pictures mircea_popescu posting from something like a beehive , on distant world
mircea_popescu: and in particular cases, you can make a note to self.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this planet ; the planet where men have tried for 50 centuries to tell the woman "make me a son, and one that's not idiotic, and not too expensive" and she brought whatever shrubbery she brought.
mircea_popescu: because... it's what it is.
asciilifeform: no but i like the image of literal wall-o-cunt, lol
mircea_popescu: :p
trinque lost it at shrubbery
mircea_popescu: but the sheer insanity to attempt a protocol built on a knowledge that it dun work in the general case, but in some particulars. what is this, building unix ?!
asciilifeform: almost nothing is doable for general case.
asciilifeform: e.g. proving haltability.
asciilifeform: but for specific case -- doable.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, as a matter of course, your protocol must work in all cases it purports to cover or it isn't.
asciilifeform: 'work' in this item means to provide the answer if it is available. and silence if it is not.
asciilifeform: this is an attainable thing.
mircea_popescu: it would appear to me the "copy what you want into your tree" provides exactly that.
asciilifeform: it flattens histories.
mircea_popescu: note if you will that "bubblesort", while a fully defined symbol, does not actually denote any specific implementation as such.
asciilifeform: i do not understand why histories ever must be flattened.
mircea_popescu: this turns into an interesting inverse case of "the code is not the spec", whereby... the spec is not the code.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because in some parts they're fictitious (read : unknowable) histories.
mircea_popescu: only that can be history, which can be ascertained.
asciilifeform: neither 'is' the other. just as drawing of kalash is not a kalash, you cannot fire it. and conversely, physical, firable kalash is not the drawing, the parts are wherever they are in the tolerance range, to make more from the 1 example you will have to redraw the drawing and determine the tolerances.
mircea_popescu: but tell me asciilifeform who invented bubblesort ? who, "the egyptian" multiplication ? who, the lisp memory model ? who invented anything ?
mircea_popescu: "oh, von neumann invented the 486". really tyvm.
asciilifeform: the relationship that exists between the kalash and its drawing, is not an 'is'.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: observe that i did not ask for a v that deals in ~concepts~, only mechanisms.
asciilifeform: nobody in my lifetime will make a 'concepts v.'
mircea_popescu: so then you propose the xor variable flip was invented by whom ? what tree do i import when i do it ?
asciilifeform: it ain't an import.
mircea_popescu: what is ?
asciilifeform: nuffin in ffa is an import, in classical v, or in asciilifeform's ideal v
asciilifeform: or in any other. whole thing written from vacuum.
mircea_popescu: note though that there WERE some disputes re its utility/feasibility! that cropped up in discussion! remember ?
asciilifeform: i'll repeat, i do not ask for a v that understands 'essences' or makes any such attempt.
mircea_popescu: with what original shall the machine compare ?
mircea_popescu: you say you aren't, but...
asciilifeform: speaking strictly of text.
mircea_popescu: if your desire can't be made to work in elementary cases, how would it work at all, is the bojum here. what, xor assignment gets a free pass, but "any program longer than 6 lines magically becomes attributable" ?>
asciilifeform: it gets attributed if it previously appeared under a signature somewhere.
asciilifeform: and if not, not. that simple.
mircea_popescu: the ~type~ of problem that cropped up with the xor assignment (whereby -- careful at context X might shoot self in foot) is ~exactly~ and with no remainder the type of problem we are fighting, whereby "oh, this ssl totally works for rsa, except... when it does not"
asciilifeform: as i said to apeloyee, in NO case can it be guaranteed that the parts cannot be cut up and re-sewn into a subtly broken shape.
asciilifeform: hence why i sign the whole, and not 'routine'
mircea_popescu: quite.
mircea_popescu: there is no implicit attribution of text ~specifically because~ there is no ghost of moses caught in the letters anymore than there's soul intertwined in the brain.
asciilifeform: and i will say, ftr, that invocation of ANY ffa components on ANY overlapping segments, is an abuse. and there is not in fact any way to guarantee correctness , if such a thing is permissible.
mircea_popescu: say it in the fucking comments of ffa, not here, at that.
mircea_popescu: what literate code is all about, nothing keeps you from putting a philosophy.preamble file in there.
asciilifeform: it is going into ch8
mircea_popescu: on the exact contrary, everyone wants nothing else.
mircea_popescu: good.
asciilifeform: previously thought that it was obvious.
mircea_popescu: that's kinda how that goes.
mircea_popescu: and, back to the trunk, we've not even discussed the horror of translation. suppose you write a thing, in ada. suppose another, who works on a lisp tree, takes your thing and identically translates it to lisp (here defined, that on any correct machine his code will in all cases behave indentically to yours). what's your v to do here ?
asciilifeform: nothing!
asciilifeform: how many time do i gotta say it, i do not ask for a concepts-v.
asciilifeform: text-v strictly.
mircea_popescu: suppose yet another one takes your thing, fixes a bug, and says "this genesis also includes exactly alf's thing verbatim, except for this subtle bug i fixed". thereby... these are different, yes ?
mircea_popescu: man saying "this is of x" is the only marginal history available here.
asciilifeform: different if the difference can be written as a program.
asciilifeform: which i am satisfied performs the requisite diff and comes up with the expected answer.
asciilifeform: the 'includes verbatim' proposition is mechanically answerable.
asciilifeform: anything pertaining to 'conceptual' identities --- is not.
mircea_popescu: paternity is purely conventional in this strong sense. among us, we may think r,s & a invented rsa. among some gray beards somewhere else, they may well know better.
asciilifeform: ( as per chaitin et al )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which is why i won't touch concepts-paternity.
asciilifeform: strings strictly.
mircea_popescu: yes, but the code we review is not strictly speaking text.
mircea_popescu: i can't be the only one who translates code as a routine attempt at understanding wtf.
asciilifeform: i'm pretty curious nao what this looks like in typical practice
mircea_popescu: what do you mean "what it looks like". it looks like, say, v!
mircea_popescu: "code your own", why is that even there.
asciilifeform: no, the 'translate code in attempt to understand' item
mircea_popescu: yes ?
mircea_popescu has been encouraging people to do just that since just about its inception
asciilifeform: it is not actually clear to asciilifeform that code ~can~ be properly speaking translated.
asciilifeform: consider a translation of ffa to c
mircea_popescu: well, the attempt to translate v proved itself extremely productive neh.
asciilifeform: from certain pov it is 'same', but if you were to change ANYTHING -- you can now get segfault. whereas in original, it was not physically possible.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: because it was reimplementation, rather than translation.
mircea_popescu: and yet a bundle of c that produces exact same binary as your ada compiler does -- could be written
asciilifeform: could!
mircea_popescu: (for a better c complier, less "optimizing" at least)
asciilifeform: there's at least 1 lisptron that actually worked this way
asciilifeform: (iirc 'chicken')
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: so, yes, ~can~.
asciilifeform: the result, however, is not in any sense 'translation', it is more of a compilation.
mircea_popescu: would look like all gnarl, but anyway.
asciilifeform: the output cannot be for any practical purpose worked with human hands.
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: sorta the situation for which we even have word 'compilation'
asciilifeform: in re proggy.
mircea_popescu: exactly like that.
asciilifeform: and incidentally whenever i translate something to engl , from ~anything else, ~same flavour.
mircea_popescu: yes, well, computer languages are supposed to not do that.
asciilifeform: i must've missed this memo.
mircea_popescu: but of the crooked timber...
asciilifeform: because they not only do it, but exaggeratedly, cartoon-coloured, do it.
mircea_popescu: if they were properly orthogonal-ized they would not, is the whole idea.
asciilifeform: upstack re the impossibility of translating the safety of an ada program's nearby-modifications-phasespace to c -- i suspect that mircea_popescu's thesis re 'files are not separate units' not only is troo, but does not go far enuff :
asciilifeform: program is not meaningfully separable from ~all~ of the necessary parts to make it go.
mircea_popescu: sadly this is likely so.
asciilifeform: compiler, etc., machine.
asciilifeform: there is 'edge space', as things are , also there.
mircea_popescu: for instance -- leaky machine will make your rsa impl leak
asciilifeform: consider every other week somebody shows up with 'i have gnat 2014 and...'
mircea_popescu: we are currently handwaving this, but it's there alright.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for some value of 'leaky machine' , quite obviously will
asciilifeform: maybe it broadcasts every cpu register on 'voice of america', who knows
asciilifeform: somebody, somewhere, has such a machine.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772646 << invented mergesort, to do the man justice.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-01-18 23:29 mircea_popescu: "oh, von neumann invented the 486". really tyvm.
mircea_popescu: who even knows this, left as separate issue.
asciilifeform: i'll give concrete example. :
asciilifeform: the use of comba , and in fact of ANY multiplier that compiles into having a x86 MUL instruction anywhere in it, is unsafe on intel celeron. and ppc32. and possibly ppc64.
asciilifeform: they shortcut-on-zero when MULing.
asciilifeform: only egyptological mul can be used on such machines.
mircea_popescu: an example of plenty available.
asciilifeform: ( preferably if you have such a machine -- throw it out!! now! )
mircea_popescu: btw, apropos of unrelated ancient thread : does your hatred of cyclotrons extend to desy as well ? no gluons for you ?