tmsr - Log 2017-09-17

deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/family-business/ << Trilema - Family Business

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-15#1715002 << pick riper fruit till this gestation completes, what's teh rush. not like anyone seriously cares about either. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-09-15 23:51 BingoBoingo: So this "Sally Hemmings And The Widower" Fanfic/novel, I'm not finding anyway to work crabapple metaphor into unifying narrative

a111: Logged on 2017-09-16 15:35 asciilifeform: ( for comparison, a NONmodular exponentiation of same width on same box with same ffa takes 0.26s. )

a111: Logged on 2017-09-16 15:31 asciilifeform: in other olds ( i dun think i posted this measurement ) the NAIVE modular exponentiator takes 51.3 seconds per 4096b a*b mod m , on the 'standard' test box

mircea_popescu: because that's fucking scandalous to begin with ; and in no case the discussed http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1712957 can possibly take that fucking long. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 21:32 mircea_popescu: and this is potentially recursive, in that if you have a 500 bit number with 300 ones in it, you do the mod for 500 terms which are all a power of 2, throw 200 away, keep the other 300 and add them. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: (pro tip : since the modulus is 4096 bits, all powers of two up to 2^4095 are unchanged by modding.) ☟︎

mircea_popescu: what this means in practice being that "the 4096 bit modulus of a 4096 bit number is obtained through at most one substraction op". ☟︎

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1713197 << this is perfectly true, but not actually the problem here. ie, it'd be just as braindamaged even without that. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 23:52 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-12#1713184 << in ffaworld, a < or > or == comparison is not only a subtraction (O(N)) but another O(N) test for nullity (xor all the words together)

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-13#1713368 << for some decent lulz on this topic, nonsensical "rebel w/o cause" 1982 john clark item, "running on empty". featuring oddball ventilation towers on the hood and vague, contradictory hints of female sex slavery. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-09-13 01:18 mircea_popescu: ok, quick summary : tech pre-injectors was carburators. engines "optimized for racing" got slowly more complex over time. then injection became feasible, and they simplified. now they've recomplexified again.

a111: Logged on 2017-09-13 19:36 asciilifeform: lathe driven moar by musketry than by fine art tho

a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 23:10 mircea_popescu: 1. if you actually want metal kbd, your choice of steel is probably ill advised. i'd try silver instead. heuristicallyt there's a reason gunsmiths and silversmiths were ~the same people i nthe early modern period ; moreover silver has better properties in the range sough.

mircea_popescu: the whole fucking POINT of french revolution was "we can make things -- soldiers, arms for those soldiers, culture for their fathers and wives, CHEAPER and MORE ABUNDANT if we chinese it." "but will it be as good ?" "i can't hear you over the kanzure of my superficiality" ☟︎

mircea_popescu: obviously, it won't be as good, in the obvious sense that you don't need frenchmen to do it, can have it done in yugoslavia cheaper. and by yugoslavia i mean poland which is to say china.

mircea_popescu: which is why it's always poor immigrants, and "3rd world" shitholes. cuz if you approximate a non-closed form solution by the number five, you get a certain set of perked ears, and they're going to always be in the back of the class.

mircea_popescu: in this sense, the perpetual "we don't deal with problems, we try to inflate them away" is a forced mistake of the socialist mind, brought about by its deffective tech stack. what the fuck else are they going to do, the only people to which "french culture" in its jimbo diderot reformulation appeals to are first generation in shoes functional illiterate tards. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: "it's ok, science will progress so fast nobody will ever wear shoes again!!!". yeah, i'm sure. and then it'll "progress" even faster than that huh.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-17#1715289 << mod ~exp~ , with naive egyptian div, does. and i described, in detail, why. plox reread. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-09-17 11:07 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-16#1715247 http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-16#1715243 are these to mean therefore that a mod computed on a 4096 bit int takes 50 seconds ?

asciilifeform: mod exp for 4096bit operands aint 1 mod, but 8192 of'em, and they're on 8192bit ints ☟︎

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-17#1715294 << computing an 'unchanged' TAKES SAME TIME as any other, omfg, it's constant time ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-09-17 11:10 mircea_popescu: (pro tip : since the modulus is 4096 bits, all powers of two up to 2^4095 are unchanged by modding.)

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-17#1715295 << this is screamingly wrong, a 4096bit modulus can be anything, incl. 1 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-09-17 11:13 mircea_popescu: what this means in practice being that "the 4096 bit modulus of a 4096 bit number is obtained through at most one substraction op".

asciilifeform: it's the same 4096 karatsubamuls, 4096 karatsubasquares, 4096 shifts, 4096 muxes, and 8192 ( once for each mul and sqr output, and ergo 8192-bit wide, and they dominate cost ) divs.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-17#1715293 << ftr this is a description of egyptian div, a SINGLE mod operation. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-09-17 11:08 a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 21:32 mircea_popescu: and this is potentially recursive, in that if you have a 500 bit number with 300 ones in it, you do the mod for 500 terms which are all a power of 2, throw 200 away, keep the other 300 and add them.

asciilifeform: incidentally do i have to explain why a modexp op cannot be 'exp, and then take result and mod' ? or is it screamingly obvious .

BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-15#1715002 << pick riper fruit till this gestation completes, what's teh rush. not like anyone seriously cares about either. << Or at least sweeter fruit ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-09-15 23:51 BingoBoingo: So this "Sally Hemmings And The Widower" Fanfic/novel, I'm not finding anyway to work crabapple metaphor into unifying narrative

jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 3571.51, vol: 15063.33228601 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 3574.9, vol: 50793.00602987 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 3189.34, vol: 892.99610000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 3613.9, vol: 5644.4904433 | Volume-weighted last average: 3572.47944623

asciilifeform: ^ and yes there is an 'obvious' 2x speedup possible and not yet done, even in this naive method

a111: Logged on 2017-09-17 11:34 mircea_popescu: the whole fucking POINT of french revolution was "we can make things -- soldiers, arms for those soldiers, culture for their fathers and wives, CHEAPER and MORE ABUNDANT if we chinese it." "but will it be as good ?" "i can't hear you over the kanzure of my superficiality"

a111: Logged on 2017-02-03 05:29 phf: my mom had one of those "papa escaped the purges by burning all paperwork but life got tough when they took our governess" piano teachers, who would lament about being forced to teach peasants and brown folk, not on racial grounds as much as "you have to have a bidet in your house for 3 generations, before you can touch a piano"

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-17#1715307 << didja sleep though the century when '1st gen in shoes' folx handed 'cultured' europe its arse on a platter, and then flew into space etc ☝︎☟︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2017-09-17 11:38 mircea_popescu: in this sense, the perpetual "we don't deal with problems, we try to inflate them away" is a forced mistake of the socialist mind, brought about by its deffective tech stack. what the fuck else are they going to do, the only people to which "french culture" in its jimbo diderot reformulation appeals to are first generation in shoes functional illiterate tards.

asciilifeform: ( and then yes rotted and vanished like every previous fat an' comfortable set ) ☟︎

jhvh1: asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-17#1715311 << i'm missing something here. did you compare a MULTIPLICATION (as your text actually said, a * b) with an exponentiation ? ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-09-17 12:25 asciilifeform: mod exp for 4096bit operands aint 1 mod, but 8192 of'em, and they're on 8192bit ints

asciilifeform: the corresponding item in the src seen in http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-17#1715329 , is FZ_Mod_Exp . ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-09-17 13:59 asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/QNPRp/?raw=true << mircea_popescu et al : how div, mod, exp, and modexp work presently.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so to try and extract actual reality from this : a ^ b mod m takes 0.26 seconds in koch writing ; same a^b mod m takes 51.3 on your box, notwithstanding a ^ b without any modding takes 1s ?

mircea_popescu: is it or is it not true a modular exponentiation in current gpg takes, on your chosen machine, 0.26 seconds.

asciilifeform: exponentiation WITHOUT DIVISIONS (i.e. nonomodular, or modulo the set ffawidth, in this case 4096) takes 0.26

mircea_popescu: so, calculating a ^ b is 0.26s ; calculating a ^ b mod m is 51.3s.

asciilifeform: koch is neither here nor there, was not part of the measurements, nor is possible to compare because it does not actually do the same job

mircea_popescu: sooo.... calculating a ^ b is 0.26s ; calculating a ^ b mod m is 51.3s.

asciilifeform: a ^ b mod 2**4096 , rather than a^b ( which our galaxy hasn't enough atoms to represent for 4096bit a and b )

asciilifeform: and in case it isn't clear, the 51+ is using the slowest known method.

mircea_popescu: soooOOOOooooOOOO.... calculating a ^ b is 0.26s ; calculating a ^ b mod m is 51.3s.

mircea_popescu: i dunno what you think the behaviour preserves, but i can assure you it doesn't.

mircea_popescu: cuz your production does not fit the requisite form. produce item in requisite form, will gladly use that.

asciilifeform: FZ_Exp does not calculate a^b, it calculates a^b modulo ffawidth. this is important difference.

mircea_popescu: so then! calculating a ^ b mod 2^4096 is 0.26s ; calculating a ^ b mod m is 51.3s. that it ?

asciilifeform: ( i don't own a box with 4096**4096 bits of memory, and neither does beelzebub )

asciilifeform: correct. the latter when using the method depicted in the snapshot.

asciilifeform: gotta nail down this difference, because it makes a difference ( in that you cannot exponentiate-and-then-modulus, universe ain't big enough , hence the invention of mod-exp )

mircea_popescu: fine. and the reason your mod does not reduce to "At most one substraction op" is "because i believe the product of two prime numbers 2kb each can in fact be less than 2^4095". that it ?

mircea_popescu: yes, but as long as you do rsa, a ^ b mod m = either a ^ b or else, a ^ b - m. that's the complete story, there are no other cases. there's specifically no k * m parameter to be explored there.

asciilifeform: hey i'd be the first to applaud if mircea_popescu came up with magical algo that reduces cpu work to ~0 !

asciilifeform: anyway this was not a sexy/exciting report, it is just to share what was the baseline ( saddest known algo )

mircea_popescu: precalculating 4k mods of 4 to 8kb single-bit items is a pain in teh arse even in simple space terms, what, ima have 16MB worth of ram/disk dedicated to just this PER mod ?

mircea_popescu: tbh i liked my "all items are 4096 bit" world way better and wtf is this "multiplication doubles width" bs anyway!

asciilifeform: can't do tables. period. they result in addressing-by-secretbits and leak timing from cache.

asciilifeform: there are no tables in ffa, and an ffa with a table is pointless ( if you access leaklessly, by chugging whole table each time ( we had thread ) you wipe out the time saving. )

asciilifeform: incidentally, if you're willing to leak the height of the last set bit in the exponent, you cut the cost even of naive method above, linearly ( e.g. the typical gpg exponent is 17 bits ) -- but i'd very much rather not

asciilifeform: and would not help the private exponent op ( where one would want to leak nothing at all )

a111: Logged on 2017-07-10 19:33 asciilifeform: sooo a 4096b rsa key takes about a dozen modexp's, on avg, on gpg 1.4.10

asciilifeform: which means that even a minute-long modexp is theoretically fieldable ( you get ~day-long keygen, and minute-per-4096bits decrypt/encrypt, but this is livable, ancestors lived with much slower hand-cranked otp )

a111: Logged on 2017-07-10 19:48 asciilifeform: ok actual answer is about 100.

mircea_popescu: but no, i don't think the item as described is useless. if you need a new key in less than a week / if your message lag is mostly this you've other problems to attend to.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-17#1715334 << no ; and good for them. but the problem is... and then what of it ? MAGA ? ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-09-17 15:01 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-17#1715307 << didja sleep though the century when '1st gen in shoes' folx handed 'cultured' europe its arse on a platter, and then flew into space etc

mircea_popescu: broken lightbulb temporarily sits on shelf next to working lightbulb, "oh, did you miss the time i burned so very bright it was like 1`000 lightbulbs ?!?!?" suppose i did miss it. what came of it ?

mircea_popescu: much like the russkis, what these other marginal orcs have to show for "their great empire" is a barely functional bezzle scheme. i don't even mean the financial part, intellectually speaking the whole us can be comfortably sat down in two lines' worth of "don't say nigger and state-god will provide", which is what, somehow different from "quote marx and wait for moscow" ?

mircea_popescu: i'm not proposing the euroidiots aren't ; but this simple fact dun make non-euros anything else.

asciilifeform: it still remains to be seen whether industrial civs can in principle outlast su

mircea_popescu: heck, the swedes are so advanced in germansystem they don't even need money anymore!

mircea_popescu: (the measure for "industrial civ" here used is, the type of answer to the problem of "i need three times the force". if it's "hire three times the coolies/horses/etc then pre-ind civ ; if it's "build bigger machine" it's industrial civ ; if the question not even conceptualized as such then it's not a civ, like say africa/polynesia/other subhumans)

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-17#1715336 << this is very much not so, in that presence of euro buildings is still the standard by which you distinguish urban from rural agglomeration ; whereas "going to space" has managed to become the standard of nothing whatsoever. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-09-17 15:02 asciilifeform: ( and then yes rotted and vanished like every previous fat an' comfortable set )

mircea_popescu: and that's a minor example. consider rothbard's utter failure to mean or matter, as sadly chronicled on trilema. yes, he's intellectually negligible, but the chief problem that renders him moot is the extreme poverty and ineptitude of his references! which is not his problem, but the 1st gen in shoes folks' problem, and the deep reason us can't and hasn't spoken in the forum of human thought.

mircea_popescu: they can't say anything that's worth remembering for the obvious reason that they can't read anything that's already there.

mircea_popescu: a whole cacophopnic symphony of little john smiths. what am i to do with this large collection of hardy country folk running around with their ummims and thurims ? EVEN IF THEY DO FLY TO SPACE!

mircea_popescu: and the recourse to inflation is rather plainly obvious, "we call it Joe's Principle because nobody could have possibly read Kant".

asciilifeform: imho principal problem of usa is whatever environmental pollutant or genetic wtf that keeps'em from learning human languages

mircea_popescu: this could have similarly been said of any of the other examples of history (the selgiuk turks, and the manchuko, readily come to mind)

mircea_popescu: note that for all their "handed everyone their ass, flew to space" accomplishments, neither tribe is remembered today for anything.

mircea_popescu: moreover, the issue is purely cultural, which is why the 1st gen in shoes keeps cropping up. trinque manifestly COULD meaningfully learn human lang once separated from his culture, as the logs bear testimony, and this is 1/1 ie 100%.

mircea_popescu: but, as teh old article says, "but then again nothing in the world harder & more obdurate than the limits a brain sets for itself"

asciilifeform: chukcha can also learn. problem is that somebody gotta separate him from the hole in the ground

mircea_popescu: separation seems to work splendidly on own power, just as soon as alternative is perceived.

mircea_popescu: but yes, the situation is not symmetrical -- western orcs produced mcmansion where eastern orcs produced very respectable math and literature, which is truly 2nd generation in shoes fare

mircea_popescu: or as ballas put it, "jobs other than science and medicine seem unreal to you"

deedbot: walter_ voiced for 30 minutes.

a111: I haven't seen AlexNT01

a111: 3 results for "AlexNT01", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=AlexNT01

mats: my favorite thing about mr. funk was his saying a couple javascript thingies were his reference wallet