jurov: http://hiddenlolcdn.com/i/64426.gif special for BingoBoingo
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1SRi2kF )
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433558 << i'm pretty sure i explained ~my~ position...☝︎
assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 23:43:35; mircea_popescu: perhaps now is a good time to bring up http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-03-2016#1428463 for another pass through ?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=10-03-2016#1428765 << thread.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 10-03-2016 15:47:10; asciilifeform: surrender is not a strategy.
asciilifeform bbl
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433558 << popescoin!☝︎
assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 23:43:35; mircea_popescu: perhaps now is a good time to bring up http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-03-2016#1428463 for another pass through ?
ben_vulpes: what's the point of the shift?
ben_vulpes: make life easy on the miners? why bother.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform something like "here's a list of my deepest unrelated fears" ?
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes sorry, what ?
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/#footnote_7_64828
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1XtSE3K )
trinque: asciilifeform: what's the proper way to apply the shiva vpatches with v?
trinque has discovered that it is not - apparently - throwing them in the patches dir, seals in seals, and pulling the trigger
trinque: http://dpaste.com/053S5NW.txt << my flow of vpatches
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1XtUgKG )
trinque: I can press up to asciilifeform_tx-orphanage_amputation.vpatch
mircea_popescu: trinque iirc it was a little ambiguous because bot ha standalone and a bitcoin-derived shiva set
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes ok but i don't get what you're saying here.
trinque: http://dpaste.com/10P5WN7.txt << yeah, it appears I may be missing a patch
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1XtUy4n )
trinque goes to look at email
mircea_popescu: trinque iirc the bitcoin-derived one had two parts named 1 and 2 which you both need
trinque: ah in place of tinyscheme genesis I would wager
trinque: nope, this seems to have to do with press order; the dynload.h in question in the second dpaste is present in the tinyscheme genesis
trinque brb
asciilifeform: stop
asciilifeform: pressing
asciilifeform: tinyscheme
asciilifeform: genesis
asciilifeform: !!!!!!!1111
adlai hasn't even started yet!
asciilifeform: folks
asciilifeform: just stop.
asciilifeform: it was never meant to be pressed!! Qqqqqqq11111
asciilifeform bbl
adlai: rules were made to be broken, buttons elbowed, and backs broken later.
mircea_popescu: lol.
adlai: mircea_popescu: laughing at my joke!? (nah, probably just at /me.)
mircea_popescu: was laughing at alf's predicament.
adlai wonders about his own predicament; people keep telling him to blog about it, but, as the latin teacher said when asked why he gave up correcting people's mispronounciation of his name: "I hate people"
adlai: mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2016/xkcd/#comment-116782
assbot: xkcd on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/22iTC9C )
BingoBoingo: great find jurov
trinque: asciilifeform: you may be the most impossible man I've ever encountered.
trinque: lol
trinque: or rather, must you bring this leak in your head into everything?
phf: trinque: it's not about "not doing things", pressing tinyscheme genesis is just not the right way to get shiva
adlai: trinque: see, perhaps, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=17-02-2016#1408140 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 17-02-2016 12:54:09; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-02-2016#1408030 << it had own genesis to establish pedigree with the historic tinyscheme. but shiva is a patch that bridges it into the trb tree. and yes i rebased it, it works with the current trb.
phf: trinque: as per that rant only things needing pressing are asciilifeform_shiva_part_1_of_2, asciilifeform_shiva_part_2_of_2 and asciilifeform_shiva_fix_flag_bug
BingoBoingo: ;;nethash
gribble: 1197205513.09
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 402861 | Current Difficulty: 1.584272037673917E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 403199 | Next Difficulty In: 338 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 23 hours, 43 minutes, and 3 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
trinque: phf: you see how your sentences have... content ?
trinque: heh, thanks.
mircea_popescu: adlai https://xkcd.com/1357/
assbot: xkcd: Free Speech ... ( http://bit.ly/1pnbqyx )
adlai: mircea_popescu: i found it and submitted a second comment, but both seem to have caught in the lo-pass
adlai: my bad, the first has percolated through... maybe it's just all the tube-clogging
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433572 << wat?!☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 01:28:59; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform something like "here's a list of my deepest unrelated fears" ?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433586 << http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411373 ☝︎☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 01:55:56; mircea_popescu: trinque iirc the bitcoin-derived one had two parts named 1 and 2 which you both need
assbot: Logged on 21-02-2016 00:38:10; asciilifeform: please throw out the old crud.
asciilifeform: ^ mandatory thread
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433600 << go ahead and plug the mains cord into your arse if you want. but then complain to somebody else, not to me, when the bulb doesn't light.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 02:18:59; adlai: rules were made to be broken, buttons elbowed, and backs broken later.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433613 << dingdingdingding we have a winner !11☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 02:53:58; phf: trinque: it's not about "not doing things", pressing tinyscheme genesis is just not the right way to get shiva
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433616 << aha☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 02:56:58; phf: trinque: as per that rant only things needing pressing are asciilifeform_shiva_part_1_of_2, asciilifeform_shiva_part_2_of_2 and asciilifeform_shiva_fix_flag_bug
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433455 << win.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 19:45:51; deedbot-: [Trilema] xkcd - http://trilema.com/2016/xkcd/
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433530 << don't use the vendor's os. for anything. unless whole thing is a gag gift to an enemy.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 23:05:37; BingoBoingo: I suspect it will have to graduate from a pogo to an "edgerouter lite" sometime in the next few months.
asciilifeform: and even when you install own os, remember that there is no rng.
asciilifeform: on the box.
asciilifeform: as on most routers.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu have a mindphuck - turns out google admits to having jacked up the cpu core count after the single solitary lee sedol win.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
phf: asciilifeform: hey, was there anything else posted re gentoo de-poetering besides the initial chicken?
phf: i was about 50% into the logs that i missed, when i switched back to reading "the tunnels of cu chi" (mega book), so not sure if the gentoo recipe was posted
asciilifeform: phf: strictly this, http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=03-03-2016#1421109 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 03-03-2016 17:24:15; asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://dpaste.com/3YZ2895.txt << preliminary crib sheet
phf: kk
phf: also http://www.amazon.com/The-Tunnels-Chi-Underground-Battlefields/dp/0891418695
assbot: Amazon.com: The Tunnels of Cu Chi: A Harrowing Account of America's Tunnel Rats in the Underground Battlefields of Vietnam (9780891418696): Tom Mangold: Books ... ( http://bit.ly/1pKstuP )
asciilifeform buys.
phf: it has a very pro-american/anti-communist bias (and there's a very surprising, complete lack of any SU mentions), but full of fascinating stories of vc tunnel based warfare
asciilifeform: pretty much all american war lit reads like hans rudel
asciilifeform: (at best)
phf: it's very odd because guy completely discredits american position in the first few chapters, yet for the rest of the books it's noble american victories vs surprisingly successful vc tactics
adlai: deedblog-: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/3363801c-fc7a-404c-a530-8d8a8927efde/
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1MlK9BJ )
adlai: oops
adlai: deedbot-: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/3363801c-fc7a-404c-a530-8d8a8927efde/
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1MlK9BJ )
deedbot-: Bad URL or network outage.
adlai: oops
adlai: deedbot-: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/3363801c-fc7a-404c-a530-8d8a8927efde/?raw=true
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1MlKbd0 )
deedbot-: accepted: 1
phf: asciilifeform: were you starting with stage3 or earlier?
adlai: ;;later tell trinque deedbot- seems to have choked again
gribble: The operation succeeded.
adlai fantasizes that his 'jewish wit' was sharp enough to bridge the silicon sarchasm
adlai: hehe, maybe i just wrote the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ienp4J3pW7U , robot edition
assbot: Monty Python's Flying Circus - World's Funniest Joke - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/22l5FA0 )
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433535 <<< did someone ring? someone need a loan?☝︎
assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 23:10:27; mircea_popescu: o i forgot the jews, did i. THREE KINDS.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51200 @ 0.00042051 = 21.5301 BTC [-]
adlai: what's the custom for voicing freenode webchat nobodies? (at least replying with "who may you be" gets them to shut up.)
adlai: sorry massiro, should I have said "fix your connection"?
adlai: massiro: (and all future !up-please-ers): introduce yourself politely via pm, or ask somebody else.
adlai: !down adlai
BingoBoingo: !up massiro
massiro: Thank you.
massiro: I wanted to share info about the payout problem with Jeb-Bush-Nomination.
massiro: I wonder if you remember me... http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-01-2016#1360779 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 05-01-2016 05:55:53; massiro: The above site says the fee is 0.001 BTC so I think it is more than enough. Is this related to low/high S value problem?
massiro: I'm sad to hear the Jeb Bush payout accident...
massiro: I think it has something to do with the release of Core-0.12 (23rd February 2016).
massiro: And the spam attack revealed the problem.
massiro: First of all, Core-0.12 stops 0-fee tx relaying during spam attacks.
massiro: Secondly, Core-0.12 abolished mining 0-fee txes by default.
massiro: I have written a (small) wall of text at http://dpaste.com/22W2SCE, regarding the causes of the payout problem.
assbot: Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1RlSaYT )
massiro: Thank you BingoBoingo for giving me a voice!
BingoBoingo: yw
massiro: To adlai's asking, I'm an occasional bettor at bbet. Sorry to omit introducing about myself.
deedbot-: [fr.anco.is] X.EUR March 16th 2016 statement - http://fr.anco.is/2016/x-eur-march-16th-2016-statement/
thestringpuller: classic starts own node cartel: https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/4aiiuc/hey_core_you_can_waste_your_own_resources_now/
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433627 << nothing you said in the lengthy diatribe following had anything at all to see with the topic proposed!☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 04:03:22; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433572 << wat?!
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433648 << not afaik. if you don't count various people (including alf most recently) on various occasions throwing their hands up in disgust at the dysfunctional pos.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 04:15:31; phf: asciilifeform: hey, was there anything else posted re gentoo de-poetering besides the initial chicken?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433649 << for my own curiosity and the calibration of public judgement, how many lines, how many hours ? or something ?☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 04:16:51; phf: i was about 50% into the logs that i missed, when i switched back to reading "the tunnels of cu chi" (mega book), so not sure if the gentoo recipe was posted
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433659 << i dunno why you think this odd. as far as my experience goes, 100% of english language literature (long before the days orwell quit and his naive, square jawed colonial subjects took over the pretense of empire) is exactly this "here are our assumptions, which clearly paint us as utterly and hopelessly stupid, let's lampshade it and carry on". i don't think by n☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 04:25:15; phf: it's very odd because guy completely discredits american position in the first few chapters, yet for the rest of the books it's noble american victories vs surprisingly successful vc tactics
mircea_popescu: ow english speaker even realises there's a disconnect between what the words mean and what his actions do.
mircea_popescu: which, ungenerously enough, seems just a step away from the breakdown specific to shitholes like argentina, where people altogether don't even comprehend words are in any sense meaningful, above and beyond the chirping captive populations of chickens do to reassure each other.
mircea_popescu: massiro it's an interesting theory, apart from the fact that nobody uses core in production, or has for many years now.
mircea_popescu: yes, various derps on poorly connected boxes still play with it. this is about as relevant to the discussion as considering what machines aspiring webcomic designers use when discussing pixar or something.
mircea_popescu: might as well say "it's because pogos", which would be equally flattering just in a different direction and otherwise equally afield.
thestringpuller: lol. p. sure 90% of current pixar staff at one point were aspiring webcomic designers...
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller yes, but they don't come with their own home fucking computers.
mircea_popescu: nobody goes "i'm going to hire joe, he's kinda meh but he has a kickass workstation!".
mircea_popescu: in fact, the difference between THAT approach and what actually happens is exactly the difference between infantile and adult life.
mircea_popescu: in roadtrip they go "we gotta take the weirdo - he has a car".
thestringpuller: sure asking truckers to fix toy truck
thestringpuller: fo shizzle. node is almost up to date 200 blocks left
mircea_popescu: i mean yes, it's true that most of the firemen are kids that played with fire trucks. it is however quite pointedly not true that most of the equipment down at the fire station is toy fire trucks brought in by conscientious neighbourhood kids.
thestringpuller: perhaps the toys should change. much more useful to work on toys that signal real life than say plastic thing on wheels.
mircea_popescu: this entire "look what prb does" is so much cosmo kramer from kramerica industries fixing the fire dept. what was that episode
thestringpuller: the secret code?
mircea_popescu: "the secret code" http://www.seinfeldscripts.com/TheSecretCode2.htm
assbot: Seinfeld Scripts - The Secret Code ... ( http://bit.ly/1YZy90f )
mircea_popescu: yeah.
thestringpuller: "Meanwhile, Kramer buys a police scanner and decides to help at the New York City Fire Department. When they receive a call about the fire at Leapin' Larry's, Kramer accidentally knocks out the fire engine driver, forcing him to take the wheel, realizing his lifelong dream. However, he is unable to steer correctly and crashes the fire engine, allowing the fire to spread further."
thestringpuller: admittedly Kramer is pretty much a modern VC wet dream. some of the stuff he sells that's "successful" is just...
thestringpuller: for instance the coffee table book about coffee tables that can turn into a coffee table
mircea_popescu: a coffee table book about coffee tables!
mircea_popescu: lol\
mircea_popescu: kinda how decay goes : stuff is the butt of jokes and "how stupid can these stupid people be", then next decade - sop.
thestringpuller: you ever read mimsy and the borogoves? short sci-fi story by Lewis Padgett (a pseudonym for CL Moore and some other person that wrote as a duo)
thestringpuller: sometimes I wonder if we went down another path where the educational toys actually make the next generation more stupid. i always thought it interesting that "children of the future will be smarter"
mircea_popescu: well... computers of the future will be better, right ?
mircea_popescu: intelligence is an adaptive behaviour ; which is why anyone with a clue would rather spend the time chatting up a random whore or street urchin than some jewish princess or "young exec".
mircea_popescu: (no, no, intelligence is not a THING. it is a behaviour. like dancing.)
thestringpuller: severe lack of education, these days. perhaps not enough beating. or enough starving for dropouts.
mircea_popescu: or any incentive whatsoever.
adlai: thestringpuller: main problem these days is too much bitcoin, they've printed 15 million already and show no signs of stopping
adlai: massiro: cool wall! sorry about the impoliteness.
mircea_popescu: adlai you can just up unknowns, they'll resolve it soon enough.
mircea_popescu: what you shouldn't do is up known idiots, but few resist the temptation.
adlai: meh, i spam enough myself, no need to facilitate spamming by schroedinger's idiots.
adlai: but thank you for the blanket permission :P
thestringpuller: reminds me of conversation I had with CVS cashier. dude was fresh out of high school and I began explaining how banks worked cause I was furious the ATM fees were 5 bucks in that store. anyhow after 5 minutes of confusion cause kid didn't pay attention in school states, "I ain't trynna think that hard man. I'm done with school."
adlai tried explaining bitcoin to a flatmate, seven different ways. each time explanation was met with "why can't people just use money". known idiot is now a former-flatmate.
thestringpuller: sure why not live in ignorance. get your 8.50/hr from CVS, blow it on rent, pot and booze, continue on. no incentive for agency. just a programmable cog.
thestringpuller: frighteningly similar to brave new world. (give em soma and carry on)
mircea_popescu: adlai i don't see the problem with this objection ? "they are. that's what i'm telling you. you don't use greek bronze weights, do you ?"
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller hey, life is good, whadda ya want. partay!
adlai: ah, so bitcoin is just another mettle, like gold, iron, greek bronze, and mental fortitude?
mircea_popescu: well, money's a whore, kinda old by now, consequently keeps changing her attire.
adlai: indeed the local rabble love to shout, "BITCOIN ZE BARZEL"
adlai: well if i ever meet the guy again, i'll be sure to tell him mircea_popescu thanks him for not buying his divestment.
thestringpuller: ;;later tell asciilifeform Finally experienced the stuck node thing. Interesting behavior. Wouldn't even accept the "stop" command. Had to kill -9 it.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: i guess let them live in ignorance as long as said ignorance doesn't interfere with the adults?
mircea_popescu: everything interferes with everything.
thestringpuller: i never really liked babysitting.
mircea_popescu: this "doesn't interfere" thing's a pregnant fiction.
thestringpuller: why open a nice school in the ghetto, if it'll just get defaced two weeks later?
adlai: yet a precise interferometer is about as feasible as a trustworthy kyristor
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433700 << this nonsense does not turn into fact merely by being uttered by mircea_popescu☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 10:59:58; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433627 << nothing you said in the lengthy diatribe following had anything at all to see with the topic proposed!
asciilifeform: pope or no pope
asciilifeform: for anyone who missed the thread, it concerned capitulation to the enemy
asciilifeform: blew my mind that any such thing was on the table
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, this'd be what i mean. capitulation what ?
mircea_popescu: the queston was, what the fuck are we going to do !
asciilifeform: and ~i~ will have no part of it.
mircea_popescu: dude again ?
mircea_popescu: you will have no part in what ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: any alignment with a usg-enriching or dimon-enabling phork
mircea_popescu: and how does this relate to what was being discussed ?
mircea_popescu: i don't fuck guys. ok. so ?
asciilifeform: or introduction of material from either into a future trb
mircea_popescu: again. how is this related to what was being discussed ?
asciilifeform: did i misthtead or what
mircea_popescu: you misread so amply it boggles the mind.
adlai: mircea_popescu: you did say we may have to choose the lesser of two evils
mircea_popescu: IF
mircea_popescu: ~~~~~IIIFFFFFF~~~~~
asciilifeform: this was re the 'strategy' thread, no?
mircea_popescu: we have nothing to propose of our own
mircea_popescu: THENNNNNNN we will have no fucking good choices to make.
adlai: other than "no fork"?
adlai: there is no spoon, nor a fork. there is a knife, and it lowers kelvin.
asciilifeform: but we have, e.g., a spiffy mircea_popescutronic item from last month
mircea_popescu: adlai wouldja think for a moment ? if miners fork tomorrow, pre-miner-fork trb will not be defensible. because bitfury (you know, kakobrekla's friends) have access to vc capital, and will bridge the gap between us printing press and chinese mining.
mircea_popescu: should have fucking killed those derps back when they were nobody and losing bitbet bets,
mircea_popescu: HOWEVER we didn't, because hey, maybe they do somethign good
adlai: so you're specifically suggesting a "reset PoW" fork?
mircea_popescu: in the end, what they did was they sparked through the dielectric.
asciilifeform: adlai: read mircea_popescu's keccak article
mircea_popescu: adlai i'm specifically suggesting we better stop flailing emotionally and fucking think, because things are not going well.
adlai: asciilifeform: i can't find this article. do you mean the "necessary prerequisite" one?
kakobrekla: dunno about friendship - i havent been able to reach bitfury in years
asciilifeform: i dun flail, i sit on sharp telephone pole and keccak on lunchbreakz..
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla and at any point prior to march 2016 i would have readily believed that. now however, is simply something i can't discern.
mircea_popescu: but... i want to believe. sure.
asciilifeform: holyfuk wat?!
thestringpuller just walked into the x-files
kakobrekla: nfi
asciilifeform: i can't wait to learn to whom ~i~ somehow betrayed the motherland
asciilifeform: mtgox?
adlai: fwiw, i sincerely doubt miners would "let core devs decide" if they believed "economic consensus" were against the devs; but this leaves open the problem of convincing them of this.
adlai does not control economic consensus, nor the miners
mircea_popescu: adlai they believe the rewaerd havling will kill them, which it well might ; and they see the opportunity with all the core/bitcoin-xt/blabla. will they take it ?
mircea_popescu: IF they do, WHAT DO WE DO.
asciilifeform: adlai: do you not see the problem of having 'konsensoooos' in he mix at all ?
kakobrekla: asciilifeform apparently im accused for working for the dark side now, somehow ?
adlai: asciilifeform: partially, although the market price of forkchains makes consensus crystal clear - but only in retrospect.
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: that was the implication? unless i'm thick
kakobrekla: well, rate away!
mircea_popescu: there's a difference between "i know x" and "i don't know x".
adlai: mircea_popescu: hmmm. ok, this is a valid question, my answer to which is: port Luke-Jr's keccak reset from "classic" to trb, and be ready to activate it, should a fork occur.
adlai: but i don't think trb should initiate a fork.
mircea_popescu: at no point was it proposed that trb does.
asciilifeform: adlai: who said anything about porting some derp's turd
mircea_popescu: the entire thing was, we should take stock of the situation, and make some judgements and plan some plans in a complete and responsible manner.
mircea_popescu: just like we [at least theoretically/aspirationally] write code
mircea_popescu: ennumerate the fucking states and test!
adlai: asciilifeform: "port" in the loose sense of the word. let's rephrase that as "some poor code monkey should write a keccak vpatch for trb, but nobody should ever have to use it"
asciilifeform: adlai: nuke must be tested.
adlai: of course, this is why we have ATC
asciilifeform: on live vermin, to be effective.
thestringpuller: had*
mircea_popescu: so again : 1) ~IF~ summer/july becomes the summer of forks, what do we do ?
mircea_popescu: 2) IF miners come out with their own fork, what do we do ?
asciilifeform: i liked mircea_popescu's algo!
thestringpuller: what about the 5% needed to veto softforks?
adlai: asciilifeform: you never answered my question. which is mp's keccak article?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform please note that it was strictly example and not design work ready for implementation.
mircea_popescu: adlai pretty sure the one you said.
adlai: ok, i also like that idea, although as you said yourself, it's not fully baked yet. i also like that it can be initially opt-in, with an ultimatum that it gets 'hardened' by some date, if it hasn't 'softened' by then.
asciilifeform: the only thing i would change is to retain old capital distribution, then keccak has a chance at continuing old schellingpoint.
mircea_popescu: see, now for some reason we're talking on point.
mircea_popescu: i dunno wtf i shoulda done different so this happened a week ago rather than now.
asciilifeform: adlai: you can't 'soften' powe
adlai: asciilifeform: mircea's suggestion is implementable as a soft fork.
mircea_popescu: it is ?
adlai: ie, only miners ~must~ enforce it; once nodes also do, it hardens, and then miners can't choose to reverse the previously-soft fork.
asciilifeform: no, wtf!
mircea_popescu: i'm confused.
adlai: until it hardens, miners could reverse.
asciilifeform: adlai: holy fuck, 2 pows?!
adlai: no.
asciilifeform: wh?
adlai: we're probably talking about different articles.
adlai is talking about "hash bits of old blocks into the coinbase txn"
adlai: which is possible to launch as a miner-only fork, which nodes can choose to enforce, but don't have to; and then at some later date, all nodes enforce it, and miners know they must keep enforcing it, too.
asciilifeform: adlai: http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1UyPaxv )
thestringpuller: i like how bitcoin mining manufacturers don't even shy away about it: "this is the most powerful miner available to ~the public~" what miners are available to the private?
adlai: asciilifeform: we're talking about the same article. read what i just said, it is about that idea.
adlai: thestringpuller: all the ones that matter
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller might just be boilerplate. replace "to the public" with "on god's own earth".
asciilifeform: adlai: i utterly fail to grasp how this is an idea
mircea_popescu: can't make this sorta judgements on the basis of fucking copywriting.
asciilifeform: wtf is a 'miner-only fork'
adlai: asciilifeform: it's an idea because it means that the "#b-a fork" isn't a hard-fork that can fail.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno, the crowning of five years of complete neglect of the relay network ?
mircea_popescu: "dun matter anyway!"
adlai: as opposed to "let's make our new blocks incompatible"
adlai: breaking consensus is a hard fork. narrowing it - soft.
mircea_popescu: ok.
mircea_popescu: that much we agree on. go on.
asciilifeform: adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=20-10-2015#1303934 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 20-10-2015 22:10:51; ascii_field: 'we'll make trucks over five tonnes switch sides first!'
adlai: well what do i go on about? ultimately the whole hard/soft thing is a terrible terminology, verging on false dichotomy.
adlai shuts up and attends to private matters
mircea_popescu: adlai you go about deductively showing your proposal from the shared basis.
mircea_popescu: if, then.
asciilifeform: again how the fuck can pow switch be 'soft' in any sense ?!
asciilifeform: it dun get any harder than pow switchout
adlai: aha, here's the misunderstanding. my proposal was not a pow switch.
mircea_popescu: but the article was ?
thestringpuller: get the miners to execute themselves willingly - softfork.
adlai: mircea_popescu: correct. i was hallucinating an alternate article, which said to http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433851 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 12:01:30; *: adlai is talking about "hash bits of old blocks into the coinbase txn"
asciilifeform: softfecalmatter is how we got here.
adlai adjusts meth-lsd dosage accordingly to reduce hallucinations
mircea_popescu: i dunno what all that was but anyways.
asciilifeform: adlai: this is ~exactly~ the old joke with the trucks
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform keeping old coinbases has the advantage and the disadvantage of keeping old coinbases.
mircea_popescu: yes, schelling point to continue, yes with the same idiots/geniuses as before, and thus at a lower adoption interest.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the advantage is that we become distinguishable from the usual idiot attempts at self-enrichment.
mircea_popescu: certainly.
asciilifeform: the disadvantages - legion.
thestringpuller: this kills SPV mining tho, which is good thing.
mircea_popescu: i'm not pushing it either this way or that, just want to get all the things on table if possibru.
asciilifeform: it could even make sense to fight on 2 fronts at once.
asciilifeform: keccak-clean and keccak-trbchain.
thestringpuller: clean?
mircea_popescu: (and generally i dunno why this shortcircuit between facts and judgement became fashionable here, seems much too close to the habits of the "independent" demographic for comfort. trust me, if i want to say x i will say it in those exact words, as i have without exception to date. saying i don't know x means i do not know. and similarly, here, and so on. i totally can speak for myself, say what i mean etc.)
asciilifeform: nowhere is it written that tmsr will field exactly one weapon.
mircea_popescu: this much is very true.
mircea_popescu: which was part of my initial wtf at your initial reaction.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sleep of reason breeds monsters etc
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: my reaction now is same as then, i am willing to take part in 1,000,001 variants but not in capitulation to the motherfuckng nazis
mircea_popescu: yes yes. good.
asciilifeform: if i wanted to wear brown all i gotta do is, understand, cross the street
asciilifeform: but i dun wanna.
mircea_popescu: i think the record well reflects this.
asciilifeform: (last night for example i formally turned down the 'encouragement' to try out for 'top secret' and may very well be sacked eventually because of it)
mircea_popescu: so your idea is, that we of course continue to maintain trb as is, but also develop a keccak pow variant, for use in case of forks ? or vice-versa, in case of forks develop it ?
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lol hey, life of your parents! funny how this works!
asciilifeform: quite!
mircea_popescu: how would it go, that commenter's proposal ?
asciilifeform: which?
mircea_popescu: lemme fish it out
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/#comment-116408
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1UyRBjA )
mircea_popescu: basically, have TWO hashes : sha(header+nonce) and sha(digest), and BOTH must be < difficulty.
mircea_popescu: well, hm, that doesn't work as stated
mircea_popescu: what i read there was, have TWO hashes : sha(header+nonce) and sha(digest+nonce)
asciilifeform: keccak is an 'accordion'
mircea_popescu: and obviously, gotta be the same nonce.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform keccak for this purpose counts as sha-3
asciilifeform: and properly stretches to fit the while thing
asciilifeform: Whole thing
mircea_popescu: that's not the problem, the merkle tree jiggling is the problem.
asciilifeform: yes but it doesn't need the idiot chaining
mircea_popescu: there was no sha(sha( contemplated
mircea_popescu: or you mean something else ?
asciilifeform: linked comment
mircea_popescu: ah ah. that's just assumption imported from current codebase, not intentional.
asciilifeform: also the hashing-the-header thing is possibly evil
mircea_popescu: the valuable idea there is, imo, that you have to keep the same nonce to calculate both sha values. which ACTUALLY does work, or seems to me to work, to do what the article proposes
asciilifeform: enables pools.
mircea_popescu: ie, give nodes a way to make money for cpu usage.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it can stay as PART of it tho.
mircea_popescu: see, the beauty of this is that it is a TRUE soft fork.
asciilifeform: sure.
mircea_popescu: ie, you still need the old gear + new gear.
asciilifeform: how?
mircea_popescu: not in the faux sense of "soft" used before.
asciilifeform: ok now i'm thoroughly lost
mircea_popescu: (well, it ~can~ be at any rate)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ask a question ?
asciilifeform: i thought we were bugspraying the old gear people.
mircea_popescu: we CAN.
asciilifeform: for their crimes.
mircea_popescu: we don't HAVE TO.
mircea_popescu: winning is all about preserving your fucking options.
mircea_popescu: in the pow1 = sha(header+nonce) and pow2 = sha(digest+nonce), the first sha can even stay what it is now.
asciilifeform: i can see preserving old capital allocation re coinz
asciilifeform: but hash power distrib? lunacy
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform same argument could be presented in reverse, also.
mircea_popescu: to plenty, present coinbase allocation = lunacy.
mircea_popescu: after all, do you know how much usg stole so far ? do they have more than satoshi yet ? if not yet, when ?
asciilifeform: it depends on who the reader sees as musting die, no?
mircea_popescu: eventually, yes ? not like satoshi is adding any.
mircea_popescu: if only it were so simple!
asciilifeform: the available evidence suggests that, like a bike thief, they steal to ~sell~
asciilifeform: !s waterfall
assbot: 119 results for 'waterfall' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=waterfall
mircea_popescu: but this does not detract from their capacity of selling.
mircea_popescu: if one day they come to their senses, what then ?
mircea_popescu: "sell" ? to whom ? etc.
mircea_popescu: im sorry, "detract from their capacity of stealing" is what i meant.
asciilifeform: then, as described in mircea_popescu's articles, they become just another player
shinohai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433891 <<< yup :)☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 12:09:47; thestringpuller: this kills SPV mining tho, which is good thing.
mircea_popescu: not those senses, their other senses.
asciilifeform: waiwut
asciilifeform: how would this look?
asciilifeform: 'from now on we sit on all we steal so we can dump in a decade' ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform usg currently steals to sell. perhaps. this does not reduce their capacity to steal in the future. if in the future they steal to hoard, or if the stuff they "sold" was just facade, through preserving coinbases we are baking in not just the original satoshi, but also an evil satoshi.
asciilifeform: and meanwhile let it 'go to moon' ?!
asciilifeform: evil satoshi is likewise present in any fork, unless you're convinced - and i am not - that enemy cannot win arbitrary pow miner buildout race.
mircea_popescu: this is also true.
asciilifeform: let's recall which side has si fabs.
mircea_popescu: these are all the moving parts we'll have to count and balance.
asciilifeform: and which - not.
mircea_popescu: the usg does not have si fabs.
mircea_popescu: not anymore than you do.
asciilifeform: intel
asciilifeform: and fuck, people like northrop
mircea_popescu: intellectual property outfits.
asciilifeform: they actually fab in usa.
mircea_popescu: some, not so much not so well etc.
asciilifeform: nope, the latter - fab.
mircea_popescu: myeah, there is that.
mircea_popescu: and of course the nsa foundry etc.
mircea_popescu: altho they sold it to some contractor iirc ? whatevs.
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: 'sold'
mircea_popescu: you mean like "sold" bitcoin ? :D
asciilifeform: standard way to handle budget overruns
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: e.g., sandia labs, was likewise 'sold' iirc.
asciilifeform: so - usg can build, if pressed, machines. ~whereas~ existing coinbases they can only reallocate, save a ecdsa break, by knocking people over the head. which is loud and somewhat costly.
mircea_popescu: neither loud nor costly to date.
asciilifeform: and has well-documented countermeasures.
mircea_popescu: to a point.
asciilifeform: ulbricht was mighty loud.
mircea_popescu: really ?
mircea_popescu: who got shot ?
asciilifeform: and if he had a pin to pull, the nazis would have nothing.
mircea_popescu: if btc people were the sort where it'd cost about 1.25 heads of usg agent per bitcoin stolen, this is one thing.
mircea_popescu: btc people so far seem much lower effort than that.
mircea_popescu: so i can't compute this like you would. it's silent and cheap, not loud, not costly.
asciilifeform: destroying the keys would be a start.
mircea_popescu: not being an anglotard - even better start. and yet...
asciilifeform: scorched earth device is usable by ~anyone.
mircea_popescu: i would propose to you that "destroying the keys" feels exactly like "moving to argentina" does to you.
mircea_popescu: so it is usable by anyone who doesn't work, live, was educated or born in the us.
asciilifeform: i suppose.
mircea_popescu: this utter fear of finality they bake into all their runts.
mircea_popescu: "omaigerd what do you mean it's finished!"
asciilifeform: and mircea_popescu knows that i'd be on the next flight if i were properly 13337 and knew how to pay the rentz there.
mircea_popescu: hahahaha. and similarly i know that they WOULDNT NEED TO pull the pin
mircea_popescu: if they were properly leet and called their secret legions to battle with da polis.
mircea_popescu: derp, srsly.
asciilifeform: l0l point
asciilifeform: then we're really speaking of eating one's nagant
asciilifeform: which plenty of folks do
asciilifeform: and yet others - study to do
mircea_popescu: yes, plenty of folk do. that don't work, live, were educated or born in the us.
asciilifeform: whatchatalkingabout usa inmates drop like flies
mircea_popescu: suddenly we understand the importance of national heroes like joe stack
mircea_popescu: it protects an entire fucking population from the above being an absolute.
asciilifeform: they suicide at drop of a hat!
mircea_popescu: yehimsure.
asciilifeform: usually cheaply/boringly
asciilifeform: but just as dead
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu this is a country where , i suspect, most folks' retirement plan is a .45 !
asciilifeform: 'Colt Life&Health Co.'
asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu nailed it, 'get on the boat with the shirt on yer back' is a kind of death-lite-version
asciilifeform: been there, done that.
asciilifeform: witnessed the effect on older folk, too.
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: i enjoy it so much i do it spuriously.
asciilifeform: mno.
mircea_popescu: do tell ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu , what, threw out his capital ?
asciilifeform: all of it?
asciilifeform: went with shirt?!
mircea_popescu: i did build and burn a number of fortunes, but in my younger years. nevertheless : you know, peter ALSO didn't HAVE TO take the imperial guard with.
mircea_popescu: it's an option, not an obligation.
asciilifeform: no phriend-who-owes-him-a-block-of-flats either !
mircea_popescu: for actual emperors. not for fuckrags a la obama, but for actual emperors.
asciilifeform: whatever nietzschetronic etc. etc.
mircea_popescu: dun haet.
asciilifeform: l0lz
asciilifeform: yahyah mircea_popescu has esp powerz and they aint for sale and follow him through the seven worlds etc etc
asciilifeform: but i was talking about mortals.
mircea_popescu: dun haet!!1
mircea_popescu: mortals ain't pulling any pins, you see. so yea, "anyonecandoit".
asciilifeform: not ntirely unrelatedly, usg is doing an impromptu collapse drill under the guise of fire inspection, and closes the whole motherfuckng subway for 24h
asciilifeform: so now i go and see what 100,000 extra cars look like.
asciilifeform bbl
mircea_popescu had a friend, and a fine fellow he was, who unfortunately died young. but we were friends from childhood
mircea_popescu: my earliest memory of him is, we were in some rural setting, dun recall whose grandparents, and we had chicks (kids get young hatchlings to play with in the time and place, it's a time-honored tradition like getting your toddler one of those dingly noise things to put above the crib or w/e)
mircea_popescu: some younger kid that didn't have one wanted to play with his, this guy would have none of it, eventually some adult intervened to make him share
mircea_popescu: so he turned the chicks neck and threw the corpse at the whiner.
mircea_popescu: school hadn't yet started, so we were prolly 6 or so. but this was a rare concept even at that age.
mircea_popescu: ~EVEN~ at that age.
thestringpuller: shutting the studio down?
thestringpuller: very p. diddy-esque
mircea_popescu: and in other news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/dc33a2028212d40e6e9ec9b9f889e90f/tumblr_nczbyyHu0n1t2qfvbo1_1280.jpg
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ptORZA )
shinohai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo ping me when you have time to look at possible qntra submission. Grazie.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: (and to cap that story - yea the adults expressed outrage ["how could you do that!"] but no, he wasn't punished, because no there was no offense, and the father(s) wouldn't have it, or generally let the women run amok with their nonsense. so hurray for patriarchy or whatever, boo the psychopaths of this world!)
nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2016#1433536 << /me extends hand to receive host☝︎
assbot: Logged on 15-03-2016 23:11:11; jurov: and *gasp* roman catholics
nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433764 <<< the general case is true here too☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 11:43:02; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433700 << this nonsense does not turn into fact merely by being uttered by mircea_popescu
nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433800 << lel☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 11:50:11; mircea_popescu: kakobrekla and at any point prior to march 2016 i would have readily believed that. now however, is simply something i can't discern.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60550 @ 0.0004201 = 25.4371 BTC [-] {4}
nubbins`: davout you have a 21.co?
nubbins`: anyone else apply for s.bbet receivership job?
nubbins` guesses nobody except for that one turbo-unqualified nobody
nubbins`: !up dbclk
nubbins`: wat
nubbins`: !up dbclk
davout: nubbins`: just interested in seeing who's paying attention
nubbins`: 8)
jurov: i wish i had rather not pay attention
nubbins`: jurov it would make things easier
nubbins`: oh FWIW i'm doing another run of posters https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1387250.0
assbot: [10/100] "What is Bitcoin?" silkscreened posters [UPDATED DESIGN FOR 2016] ... ( http://bit.ly/1pIEPUf )
trinque: adlai: your deed will send as soon as this thing reimports its key into the wallet for the 30th time
adlai: mircea_popescu: that is such a terrible story, the child should have been spanked for chiccicide
trinque: $ LC_ALL=C bitcoind listaccounts
trinque: {
trinque: "" : -0.00020000
trinque: }
adlai: aha looks like trinque is pulling a ben_vulpes ?
trinque: pardon?
adlai: nvm
mircea_popescu: yeah im sure.
adlai: masheu beanglit
mircea_popescu: what's so terrible about it ?
adlai: the child should have been spanked! you don't just go around letting your kids kill things, without a little flick on the butt
mircea_popescu: and why not ?
trinque: when I had a cat it killed things all the time, for fun.
mircea_popescu: cats are particularly bloodthirsty huh.
mircea_popescu: anyway, http://trilema.com/2016/the-chick-incident/
assbot: The chick incident on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/21v8z2T )
adlai: mircea_popescu: i wanna answer with a log link, but the search is failing so i'll quote instead: "mircea_popescu: *-cide is never justifiable"
adlai: although the * in that context was just a bunch of cells!
adlai: (for the lispless in the audience, cells are a human invention, by kenny tilton)
adlai: somebody on better terms with that man oughtta invite him in here someday.
mircea_popescu: i don't think justification was attempted.
mircea_popescu: breathing is also never justifiable.
adlai: iirc somebody asked you whether you justify abortion or somesuch
mircea_popescu: best find the link.
adlai: !s mircea abortion
assbot: 31 results for 'mircea abortion' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=mircea+abortion
adlai lets googlebot find it
adlai: it's 4:20, i got blunts to burn and chat to spurn.
mircea_popescu: adlai can't propose weird stances for mp to have taken in the past and then crap out on the documentation.
adlai: well it was definitely after i joined the channel, if that limits the search space.
mircea_popescu: nobody's going to do your work. you wanna talk to the adults, talk like the adults.
adlai: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=22-04-2015#1106206 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 22-04-2015 01:52:22; mircea_popescu: the alternative is nothing. murder's not something to be explained.
adlai attains enlightenment - "chix" are not subject to "murder"!
adlai: thank you, buddha. you're next.
mircea_popescu: you see the difference between to explain and to justify yes ?
adlai: sure
adlai wanders off in search of the buddha
mircea_popescu: discretionary acts are that, discretionary. no explanation is available for the private sphere.
mircea_popescu: but yes, that's the major problem of murder : a private act with major public effects. pretty major conundrum.
adlai blows buddha-neck-dust off hands
adlai: ( for the heathens - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C5%8Dan#Killing_the_Buddha )
assbot: Kōan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1VckfYs )
adlai: !t m s.mpoe
assbot: [MPEX:S.MPOE] 1D: 0.00042006 / 0.00042062 / 0.00042603 (374417 shares, 157.49 BTC), 7D: 0.00042006 / 0.00048142 / 0.00053073 (12408846 shares, 5,973.87 BTC), 30D: 0.00042006 / 0.00055086 / 0.00059897 (72958913 shares, 40,190.59 BTC)
mircea_popescu: so i made the mistake of following the tardpedia link. therein,
mircea_popescu: A student asked Master Yun-Men (A.D. 949) "Not even a thought has arisen; is there still a sin or not?" Master replied, "Mount Sumeru!"
mircea_popescu: motherfucking hell these idiots already.
mircea_popescu: i'm not sure there exists but i'm sure i don't know anything more offensive than the precious derpage in the eastern tradition.
adlai: they were right about killing them! put them out of their fucking misery, can't you hear it in their "bushels of flax"
adlai: btw: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=27-01-2016#1386701 << yes totally you have no idea. you should try it sometime!☝︎
assbot: Logged on 27-01-2016 00:03:26; mircea_popescu: isn't lying fun.
mircea_popescu: "if you meet a derpy teenager with whispy "beard" hair, onanistic odours wafting every which way who can'tstop prattlingabout his erotic exploits...
mircea_popescu: whatever, kill him i guess."
mircea_popescu: fucking bullshit, "what's the meaning of coincidence ?" "dunno dood, HE HAD TO FUCKING COME FROM SOMEWHERE" hurr durr.
mircea_popescu: "gotta do something while waiting for buddha to decide christ's more fun and come back to save or someshit."
mircea_popescu: "meanwhile this cock ain't gonna rub itself, so here we are".
mircea_popescu: adlai you realise - google is even better at koans than at go.
adlai: oh i know, i already ready https://medium.com/my-satsang/on-k%C5%8Dans-and-turing-machines-adeac0844dac#.z82tdhxaw
assbot: On Kōans and Turing Machines — My Satsang — Medium ... ( http://bit.ly/21vaiFa )
trinque: https://d262ilb51hltx0.cloudfront.net/max/800/1*e-IrhTIQQ2-GaOdbDMYxGw.png << ahahahahaha check that out. model of consciousness even
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/21vay74 )
mircea_popescu: trinque "but what is the meaning of the colors!" "the wild fox is dead"
mircea_popescu: hurr durr we're in nirvana hall.
mircea_popescu: in the same vein, mihai margineanu playing atm, just went "whenever you ask a question you don't expect answered ; why are you surprised when you get an answer you didn't expect".
trinque: not bad
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1434153 << don't confuse with valhalla hall, with the valkyries. nirvana hall is just that 20 m^3 concrete cesspool from mircea_popescu's old article.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 14:46:24; mircea_popescu: hurr durr we're in nirvana hall.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is coincidentally the pompous name of the place where the events discussed transpired.
asciilifeform: urgh
mircea_popescu: !up hybridsole
asciilifeform: interestingly, no effect visible to naked eye from the city subway here being closed - seems as if usg took the day off..
asciilifeform: so net ~0.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what, the assumption that alternatives exist died in practice yet again ?
mircea_popescu: and silly me, to think that the guys in the subway are there by choice, and they could do something else.
mircea_popescu: "no subway, no travel - i don't own a 1/100000 of the 100`000 spare car meta-pool, nor do i have anything to do that'd justify it."
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: megalopolis dies without either a) subway or b) the folks who work there, living there
asciilifeform: and we don't have (b) here
mircea_popescu: so tell me, as a curio : what is the correct accounting for "city having subway" in the books of a donut shop at the corner of 85th and 10th ?
asciilifeform: calculate how much of, e.g., nyc, you would have to level and convert to garage, and how much to level to convert to 32-lane streets, to have a (c) everyone drives
mircea_popescu: because it clearly IS part of the books, right ? trivially enumerable, as it is. just not easy to evaluate.
mircea_popescu: what do!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: well traditionally it is whatever the tax is, no ?
mircea_popescu: or wait, you don't do number grid in dc, do you ?
asciilifeform: there is a (primitive) grid.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ha-HA ? tax offers no guarantee.
mircea_popescu: as you recall, police is not obliged to serve you.
asciilifeform: no shit !
mircea_popescu: so... how do you put the subway on the donut shop's books!
mircea_popescu: this is no light matter.
asciilifeform: the king actually doing his thing is a best-effort affair aha.
asciilifeform: you can't put motherfucking collapse on the books.
asciilifeform: because it costs +inf.
mircea_popescu: awww!
mircea_popescu: but but but...
asciilifeform: (not even maxint - you could pay maxint, theoretically.)
mircea_popescu: WHAT DO!
asciilifeform: the old ww1 saw.
asciilifeform: 'whaddoido if a shell lands in my trench??'
asciilifeform: answer:
trinque: no everlasting life eh?
asciilifeform: 'jump up twenty metres and scatter yerself around a bit'
trinque: lol
mircea_popescu: wwwwwwellllll then.
asciilifeform: there is no entry in the bookz for 'asteroid' either.
mircea_popescu: in case this is not obvious, transparent parallel to our bitbet adventures.
asciilifeform: no shit.
mircea_popescu: hey, i dunno what posterity is like. maybe they're retarded.
asciilifeform: this is more or less a safe assumption.
mircea_popescu: i prefer to practice safe sex rather than safe assumptions.
asciilifeform: l0l
asciilifeform: the chicken story is lulzy
asciilifeform: i imagine every boy broke something when 'made to share' at some point
asciilifeform: but i never had a whole fucking chicken
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is the clear winner in the moar-orc contest.
asciilifeform: incidentally every time i open my idiot mouth and talk to colleagues, another one of my 'every boy must have...' assumptions drops like a fucking fly.
asciilifeform: sometimes it is chronological,
asciilifeform: e.g., i run into grown man who never saw msdos
asciilifeform: sometimes - not.
jurov: mircea_popescu: pls to mpex
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1434076 << l0l wut, the circa-2013 usb miner thing ??☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 14:03:05; nubbins`: davout you have a 21.co?
asciilifeform: why would anyone buy ? i still dun get it
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1434092 << i learned one way to achieve this 'wonder' - doublespends followed by normal spend☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 14:19:29; trinque: "" : -0.00020000
asciilifeform: wallet (incl. trb) ~much~ dislikes doublespends
asciilifeform: you end up with this barf.
trinque: I'm aiming to build the calls necessary to run deedbot's needs over shiva.
asciilifeform: trinque: neato!
trinque: too much manual lever-pulling at the moment
asciilifeform: trinque: what do you need to make this go ?
asciilifeform: imho the mega-reasonable thing to do, and the thing i would be doing right now if not sitting on a stake possibly, is to abstract out the wallet idiocy
davout: trinque: that -0.00020000 comes from the "accounts" mega-turd?
trinque: davout: yes
asciilifeform: which is to say, incorporate db calls into shiva
asciilifeform: and go from that to tx-crafting
asciilifeform: while staying in shiva.
trinque: asciilifeform: right, I would at least need sendrawtxn (can make txn elsewhere) but it would also be nice to have createrawtxn and signrawtxn I suppose.
trinque: I can do the latter two outside too
asciilifeform: you need the blockchain for this.
trinque: had my own external wallet db for btcd
asciilifeform: (at least in practice)
trinque: I was simply keeping a sqlite db of txns
trinque: hypothetically I would like to simply be able to inquire the balance of any address at any time
trinque: this seems heavy given the db structure used
asciilifeform: this is O(N) trinque.
trinque: yep.
asciilifeform: intrinsically.
davout: this "accounts" thing is such an abomination...
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1434210 <<< the rasperree-pee-that-can-also-mine-sort-of☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 15:14:21; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1434076 << l0l wut, the circa-2013 usb miner thing ??
asciilifeform: the notion of the machine undertaking to solve the knapsack problem is ludicrous in itself.
asciilifeform: and from it flow the other atrocities of the 'wallet'.
asciilifeform: is everyone familiar with knapsack ?
trinque: yep, you have finite volume and items of varying volume and value, want to pack the knapsack by optimal value
trinque worked on warehouse software in ancient days
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> but i never had a whole fucking chicken << seriously ?!
mircea_popescu: my sister killed more than these by being a kid and accidentally stepping on their heads than i can recall.
mircea_popescu: trinque> I'm aiming to build the calls necessary to run deedbot's needs over shiva. << bless your heart.
mircea_popescu: davout> this "accounts" thing is such an abomination... << consensus on this since... 2011 ?
mircea_popescu: trinque i recall me losing my top over this back in 2013ish or w/e the first time bitcoin-idiocy got in the way of bitbet, being told "oh wait, this is an actual problem - we don't resolve problems, we write code here at prb!"
mircea_popescu: "Fix the motherfucking code before you have to be fired. To recap : a. If I want to make 1 Mb txs I make 1 Mb txs ; b. correct inputs are selected to feed the outputs as if a human or better was doing the selecting." << also march, as fate would have it.
davout: pretty much
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform how exactly is the notion ludicrous in itself ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: knapsack problem is this np-complete boojum for which you can, yes, have various crapsack approximations
mircea_popescu: so then.
asciilifeform: which is what we have in trb
mircea_popescu: not at all.
mircea_popescu: well... by some standard a brick is a computer, so sure.
asciilifeform: the tx selector thing
asciilifeform: for 'pay x btc to addr a'
asciilifeform: machine solves 'from which unspent ins'
mircea_popescu: ~random
asciilifeform: poorly.
mircea_popescu: even historical order would acvtually beat trb on this.
asciilifeform: the create-new-addr-every-time thing also guarantees fragging and pestilential multitudes of 'young' unspent coin
asciilifeform: as if the knapsack thing were not enough
mircea_popescu: both the "shittier than historical" and "new addr for change" bits are satoshi's dubious kludges to protect "anonimity"
asciilifeform: let's pile up moar, moar!111 variably-valued items for the solver!1111
mircea_popescu: except for a very poorly defined, mostly felt notion of "anonimity"
asciilifeform: ^^^
asciilifeform: was the idiot justification aha.
asciilifeform: enemy could not possibly spend extra few 100 cpu cycles!1111
asciilifeform: to recalculate the origin.
mircea_popescu: whitening.
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: it is a really hard thing to pass.
mircea_popescu: nanto or how do they call it.
asciilifeform: exercise in electrically-assisted self delusion
asciilifeform: like most kompyooooting claptrap.
asciilifeform: but anyway, unlike the pow wars or whatever apocalyptic thunderclouds, the wallet ~could~ be fixed if anyone gave half a fuck
asciilifeform: i kinda assumed formerly that mircea_popescu fixed it in his
asciilifeform: (not with own hands, naturally, but whatever makes mpb)
mircea_popescu: or, in the words of the ballas master, " Yet given the infinity of the internet you still surf the same 5 websites, looking for and finding exactly what you want, like a baby playing peekaboo in a mirror over and over and over and over and over and over and..."
asciilifeform: was surprised to learn that this was not so
trinque: fixed or removed and cauterized?
asciilifeform: fixed fixed.
asciilifeform: mircea_popesc-fixed
trinque: I was doing just fine without a wallet using btcd
mircea_popescu: you learned what how when ?
trinque: and shitting my own txns in from elsewhere
trinque: jumped onto trb intending to cause myself severe pain such that gears of progress and whatnot
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: by implication, from various mircea_popescu gripes about tx-sending.
asciilifeform: pretty much all i know about mpb comes from these !
mircea_popescu: heh.
mircea_popescu: "on the basis of the leaks coming from the invisible aircraft we have learned that it is a duck."
trinque: does it float?
mircea_popescu: only in air.
asciilifeform: approx.
trinque: close enough
asciilifeform: when i see that birdshot works on it, i know it is prolly not a mig...
mircea_popescu: amateur hunter returns empty handed from swamp. "nothing but migs out there good god what's the world coming to!"
asciilifeform: from 'linux', lulz,
asciilifeform: # /etc/localtime is a symlink with glibc > 2.15-41
asciilifeform: ^ how the FUCK is this any business of libc.
mircea_popescu: recall the threads about ntp, political time etc ?
mircea_popescu: like that.
asciilifeform: uhah.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433702 << it is what there is.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 11:03:11; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433648 << not afaik. if you don't count various people (including alf most recently) on various occasions throwing their hands up in disgust at the dysfunctional pos.
asciilifeform: i don't have another, functional os buried somewhere
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: for me right now it is gentoo or unabomber cabin.
hanbot: phf / anyone who mac-erizes or might mess with gpgtools, tell me menu option & any steps involved in exporting pubkey if you have a moment? i'm trying to put a eulora wiki guide together and these derps have like zero documentation.
asciilifeform: 'perelman-os'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fwiw the mask set i published here will build a depoetteringized (though not dedrepperized) gentoo, which will stay that way. but various more or less essential items, e.g., 'wireshark', will not build.
mircea_popescu: i am aware.
asciilifeform: there is a dedrepperized (experimental, musltronic) gentoo but it is VERY spartan
asciilifeform: e.g., no emacs.
asciilifeform: so not really os.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu ah so you tried it.
asciilifeform: i did not think anyone gave a fuck.
mircea_popescu: why not ?
asciilifeform: because everybody here, afaik, already has some ruin he inhabits
asciilifeform: but i have nfi.
mircea_popescu: you think like the man of a single woman.
asciilifeform: i speak like diogenes of a single barrel.
mircea_popescu: !b 2
assbot: Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0MWNF9W.txt )
asciilifeform: though i have a few dozen mostly broken ones.
mircea_popescu: everyone's a diogenes of a single candle.
asciilifeform: and single turtle, aha.
mircea_popescu: actually that's a great name for the temple for this here cult,
mircea_popescu: Temple of the Diogenes of the Single Candle.
mircea_popescu: teh dsc sounds like a pretty kickass patron deity, thinking about it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66650 @ 0.00042006 = 27.997 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: much of modern tech is really reducible to 'let's give diogenes 1000w projector, he will surely find honest man!111'
mircea_popescu: hey, he wins at go.
asciilifeform: speaking of which, how about them 1900 cores.
mircea_popescu: what of it ?
asciilifeform: (from, iirc, 1200, after the machine loss)
asciilifeform: since when is this done.
mircea_popescu: since forever ?
mircea_popescu: or hwat ?
asciilifeform: i distincly recall stipulation that all 5 games will be played against same thing ?
asciilifeform: or did i dream this.
mircea_popescu: heh.
mircea_popescu: machine is not a thing in the sense here contemplated.
asciilifeform: being rather the collective best effort of the king's horses and king's men ?
mircea_popescu: the whole deal was something like "and lee sedol will now play the whole nation of china - elect a representative, or two, or whatever. the go competence of the entire han race is being judged"
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433733 << i read it. marvelous tale. and - unsurprisingly - barfalicious hollywood film 50 yrs later.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 11:21:59; thestringpuller: you ever read mimsy and the borogoves? short sci-fi story by Lewis Padgett (a pseudonym for CL Moore and some other person that wrote as a duo)
mircea_popescu: ahh this mango lassi.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1433736 << in some circumstances ~maladaptive~☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 11:27:35; mircea_popescu: intelligence is an adaptive behaviour ; which is why anyone with a clue would rather spend the time chatting up a random whore or street urchin than some jewish princess or "young exec".
mircea_popescu: notrly.
mircea_popescu: the adaptive behaviour is teh intelligence - the rest, will, if you will, or whatever.
asciilifeform: what if test is 'be not as large as a mouse, there is nothing to eat but for cockroach'
mircea_popescu: dumb mouse.
asciilifeform: sometimes it is maladaptive to be larger than roach
asciilifeform: where then, the intelligence.
mircea_popescu: and if it is, it's also unintelligent.
asciilifeform: in the end, the stone - who outlasts all - is most intelligent then.
asciilifeform: brick lisp !
mircea_popescu: notreally, as it doesn't adapt.
asciilifeform: this is not imho a very interesting concept of intelligence.
mircea_popescu: but it is more reliably notstupid than people, for sure.
mircea_popescu: why haet.
asciilifeform: l0l this was even in my brick article
asciilifeform: english folks say 'stopped clock is right 2x a day'
asciilifeform: beats a great many people aha.
mircea_popescu: now why'd you strawman the "adaptive behaviour" ? what the fuck do you care what the outcome is.
asciilifeform: i merely happen to live there.
asciilifeform: so not entirely indifferent to whether surrounded by cockroach
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu lives on mt olympus with the other godz and naturally gives not a fuck
mircea_popescu: that you don't like the outcome is not cause to alter the definitions lol.
asciilifeform: evolutionary process is mega-adaptable but is not in any useful sense intelligent
mircea_popescu: behaviour!
asciilifeform: because cannot plan or 'think outside local maxima'.
mircea_popescu: process is not behaviour.
asciilifeform: 'be born a cockroach' is not behaviour of anything but evolutionary process
mircea_popescu: so ?
mircea_popescu: i am sorry strawman doth not make much sense and commiserate !
asciilifeform: i commiserate that mircea_popescu thinks the 'idiot god' of hill-climbing optimizer is 'intelligence'
mircea_popescu: not what i said.
mircea_popescu: the root of the problem would seem to be the self-serving but otherwise bluntly unwarranted assumption that "intelligence is useful in all circumstances".
mircea_popescu: this is not so.
asciilifeform: pretty much what i said, no ?
mircea_popescu: no. you said maladaptive.
mircea_popescu: that presumes you act on it.
asciilifeform: take the famous sea cucumber.
mircea_popescu: aite.
asciilifeform: 'The juvenile sea squirt wanders through the sea searching for a suitable rock or hunk of coral to cling to and make its home for life. For this task, it has a rudimentary nervous system. When it finds its spot and takes root, it doesn't need its brain anymore, so it eats it! It's rather like getting tenure.'
mircea_popescu: must not be the same animal, sea cucumber i think of is an echinoderm.
mircea_popescu: it moves.
mircea_popescu: (actually it's the jumping champion, some 1km jumps)
asciilifeform: ah right
mircea_popescu: but anyway, so animal that stops locomoting gives up brain cells used for handling that.
mircea_popescu: recall pigeon experiments ? brain is plastic, takes over function of lost partys
mircea_popescu: at the expense of other processes, of course. so what of it ?
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: this is adaptive.
asciilifeform: and the beast can't exactly grow a new brain if environment changes and it could take the chance of moving to a new rock.
mircea_popescu: so because enthalpy, you propose no commerce is possible.
asciilifeform: not in closed system !
mircea_popescu: non-closedness of a system is an accounting fiction.
asciilifeform: and this is where we find out that mircea_popescu stands outside heat death.
mircea_popescu: why ?
asciilifeform: largely since i never get the sense he is discussing a place where he ~lives~
asciilifeform: vs some distant zoo
mircea_popescu: also duck ?
asciilifeform: prolly goes with the job.
asciilifeform: i can see it already: harem gurl: 'i stepped on rusty nail!' mircea_popescu: 'here's an impregnation, perhaps after 20 generations your descendants will have shell armour on their feet'
asciilifeform: 'meanwhile have a rusty knife'
mircea_popescu: did i ever recall the story of the slavegirl that had never seen railroad tracks ?
asciilifeform: nope
trinque: "here's an impregnation" << lolol
mircea_popescu: so we go to cross some tracks and i say "careful not to touch the shiny parts!" and she carefully steps to not touch the shiny parts.
asciilifeform: who the fuck has not seen railroad ? blind gurl ?
asciilifeform: wat?!
mircea_popescu: later finding herself at a good time for such, inquires why parts were shiny ?
mircea_popescu: "because trains go on them, polish them"
mircea_popescu: "so then why not step on them ?!"
mircea_popescu: "no reason."
mircea_popescu: "i thought it was something with electrictiy!!1"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not all people come from europe you know.
mircea_popescu: who else has rail ? new england ?
trinque: portland wants to be yurp bad enough to have put some in
mircea_popescu: aokthen!
asciilifeform: there are rails here!
trinque: couple of hipster chicks get flattened by it per year
mircea_popescu: trinque funny, was same in india!
asciilifeform: every day 1000 tonnes of coal went past my old flat
asciilifeform: and there were a few splats also.
mircea_popescu: anyway, i wonder why asciilifeform is so convinced that one may only see the truth of things that don't affect them personally.
asciilifeform: prolly because 20 pack a day mathematics habit
mircea_popescu: what is this. mayhap the explanation isn't that mp lives in a heat-death immune dirigible (upgraded from atomic) but simply... does not care ?
asciilifeform: i am reminded of dan mocsny's 'whichever one of us leaves usenet first is the Real Man' mega-flame
asciilifeform: (moscny - won.)
mircea_popescu: how ?
asciilifeform: he left.
mircea_popescu: no, how are you reminded
asciilifeform: ah the not-caring olympics l0l
mircea_popescu: but look at the jump : 1) unexplained item can be explained by a or b ; 2) it's a b-olympics!
mircea_popescu: what goes from 1 to 2 ?
asciilifeform: side thread
mircea_popescu: the jump is the mechanism at issue here nevertheless.
asciilifeform: well, to re-connect the frags, i take issue with everett's device as problem solving tool, because if you admit it, none of the other things we do make any sense
mircea_popescu: these are as far as i've seen the two mindbugs of the republic : a) A -> B therefore B-> A, ie backflow ; and b) the above.
asciilifeform: why not just fellate our pistols every morning while enemy is still alive ?
mircea_popescu: there is no capacity of sense in phenomenology.
mircea_popescu: nothing "makes sense" in the sense you want it to.
mircea_popescu: ethics (ie, the mechanism to answer "what should i do") is a very severely limited science.
asciilifeform: so why is mircea_popescu eating cake and not rusty nails ?
mircea_popescu: will. not intelligence.
asciilifeform: and contemplating trbtronics, rather than praying to vishnu ?
mircea_popescu: because i can.
asciilifeform: but can also these other things.
mircea_popescu: why did the man get out of bed ? he could stay in bed, regress to childhood and whatever, paint posters to show mommy.
mircea_popescu: yes, i can also these other things.
asciilifeform swaps gas mask cartridge
trinque: why did the shark swim when it could stop?
mircea_popescu: (ever wondered, btw, why some men favour ugly, unattractive women ? the freudian explanation is exactly above - they seek to reunite with mother, in which case sexual appeal is a hindrance not an asset.)
mircea_popescu: trinque shark swims to breathe tho.
trinque: right, I know
asciilifeform: https://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march << lulzy wankage in commentz
assbot: BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match :: 80.22 B (54%) on Yes, 68.59 B (46%) on No | closed 1 week 16 hours ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1Q5VsDd )
trinque: "why does it feel good to will things into being?"
asciilifeform: was this dear old nubs?
mircea_popescu: who ?
asciilifeform: bbet anons raging
trinque: ask the dumb hill-climbing optimizer?
mircea_popescu: i dunno.
mircea_popescu: trinque possibly the least offensive koan of the lot is the one with "why did i rescue the scorpion ? it is my nature!"
mircea_popescu: rarely was i so happy to hear of a monk's demise.
asciilifeform: there are many fables where a scorpion kills a man, but is this actually possible ?
mircea_popescu: i think some but not most are venomous enough.
asciilifeform: (short of allergic shock)
mircea_popescu: of course - a bee can kill a man, if it's the right bee and the right man.
mircea_popescu: aha.
trinque: http://transform.to/~dragondm/lit/koans << heh not bad
assbot: 404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1pukQsF )
trinque: penultimate
mircea_popescu: bad restating. they took out the dying part - very indicative of the cocksucker sort they are.
asciilifeform: who's they
asciilifeform: translator?
mircea_popescu: they is teh community.
mircea_popescu: mno. the numerous lee sedols of that pointless boardgame.
asciilifeform: speaking of
asciilifeform: i'm kinda surprised the whiners aren't here yet
asciilifeform: (re bbet)
mircea_popescu: bar too high ?
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform>was this dear old nubs? << nope, i have more pressing concerns than anonymously trolling bitbet comments
nubbins`: also, shipping dept managed to get crate delivered for half of what i quoted you, so plz PM signed refund address at your convenience
asciilifeform: nubbins`: i will ! ty
asciilifeform: nubbins`: soon as i get home.
nubbins`: i'd considered sending you a mystery prize but figured that'd be a bit too fast & loose
asciilifeform: l0l
asciilifeform: i actually considered buying some b00kz from nubbins`
asciilifeform: but now i am too p00r.
asciilifeform: ftr i enjoyed the photos from 'whale & other disorders.'
nubbins`: tyvm!
nubbins`: most of the contributors attempted to refuse some of their payment
nubbins`: "this is too much, i'm not joking"
nubbins`: in terms of retail value, we handed out $10k worth of books to contributing artists
nubbins`: i was a bit :0 when i did the math
asciilifeform: nubbins`: actually ok to tx back to originating addr
trinque: mod6: what's the proper way to get you changes for v.pl? would be nice when press blows up to be told what vpatch barfed. want to just add that yourself?
trinque gets a vpatch
asciilifeform: http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2016/03/the-wrong-kind-of-victory.html?m=1 << orl0l
assbot: ClubOrlov: The wrong kind of victory ... ( http://bit.ly/22mIx3T )
asciilifeform: where he discovers turkeydollarz...
trinque: http://dpaste.com/0YKDMWF << miserablol
assbot: dpaste: 0YKDMWF ... ( http://bit.ly/1UgeARG )
trinque will put his awk shitwaders on later
trinque: anyhow, looks like polarbeard_add_getpeerinfo_rpc.vpatch needs rebasing
trinque: http://dpaste.com/34Y62T4.txt << these press
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1R3zduP )
trinque: http://dpaste.com/179T4JC.txt << bad press with polarbeard_add_getpeerinfo_rpc.vpatch
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1R3zL3M )
trinque: wb funkenstein_
funkenstein_: greetings trinque :)
funkenstein_: i saw something about keccak, afaik maxcoin has the highest hash rate of all keccak coins at the moment
funkenstein_: copper lark was first i saw to use it
asciilifeform: funkenstein_: keccak-with-hash-over-arbitrary-blocks-pulled-from-chain
asciilifeform: ('proof of storage')
asciilifeform: as per mircea_popescu's article
funkenstein_: which part of that article is worth discussing?
funkenstein_: its a nice idea but already been through the problems i thought
phf: trinque: yeah, polarbeard_better_log_messages depends on a conflicting patchset
phf: trinque: specifically, http://btcbase.org/hash/02CCC72E42939509FC180861DB7FFEC50563A84869F35671FCF720090F9782674EDCC89C4174175691566FAC7277F1EBE0F50253D1E4A995EB960F5B43CCE2A3
assbot: patches for hash 02CCC72E42939509FC180861DB7FFEC50563A84869F35671FCF720090F9782674EDCC89C4174175691566FAC7277F1EBE0F50253D1E4A995EB960F5B43CCE2A3 ... ( http://bit.ly/1UA4udk )
phf: depends on deprecated asciilifeform_malleus_mikehearnificarum's version of main.cpp
asciilifeform: funkenstein_: which problems ?
phf: and this one too http://btcbase.org/hash/BB842420BCC67752EDF8E658524B135F499C5F8676557A6C12F47F204303E34BD73BEABDF6E9146BA452947C4E5CD298529969FAB90F16942F6BF0C1229F7043, asciilifeform-programmable-versionstring which is also deprecated
funkenstein_: see jurov's comment
asciilifeform: funkenstein_: i mean, ~other~ than it being a hardphork
asciilifeform: funkenstein_: link plox ?
phf: trinque: i say, press to polarbeard_remove_shrink_debug_file, then patch -p1 < polarbeard_better_log_messages, then vpatch the result, then do same for polarbeard_add_getpeerinfo_rpc. that's sort of easiest, fastest way to regrind
funkenstein_: http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/#comment-116397
assbot: The necessary prerequisite for any change to the Bitcoin protocol on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1UEI3BP )
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell shinohai pls to submit it
gribble: The operation succeeded.
shinohai: Here it is BingoBoingo but ill have to resubmit, stoopid Obama went and named someone else to scotus. http://dpaste.com/3164N6J.txt
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1UA5xtD )
BingoBoingo: pls do that then
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1183 << i had nfi this existed. a whole own poetteringism, hilarious, touches ~all binaries on affected pseudolinuxen, ruins aslr and number of other things, random (!) crashes, ardent defenders (ahaha), etc.
assbot: #1183 (Don't enable prelink by default in Fedora) – FESCo ... ( http://bit.ly/1R3GSt1 )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: uh.
asciilifeform: the comments are mindblowing.
asciilifeform: http://lwn.net/Articles/341244 << drepperism!
assbot: Is pre-linking worth it? [LWN.net] ... ( http://bit.ly/1R3Iv9X )
asciilifeform: ^ worth reading for the commentz
mircea_popescu: what is pre-linking ?
mircea_popescu discovers that he can't rightly say what fedora even is. is it what, a distro ? some sort of centos ?
mircea_popescu: what ?
jurov: fedora is opensource kitchen for redhat
mircea_popescu: ah right.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there is no legit thing called prelinking
asciilifeform: it is a poetteringization of the ordinary glibc execution process
jurov: and prelinking is writing directly to the binaries/ dynamic libs what virtual memory address are they going and which addresses can all the other depending libraries found at
asciilifeform: where the items, having been linked dynamically, are pseudo-staticized periodically (!) by a cron job
asciilifeform: badly.
mircea_popescu: my meagre understanding of computing doesn't allow me to discern the intended meaning.
mircea_popescu: "pre fuck" i can imagine what'd be. pre linking... no.
mircea_popescu: uh
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is a highly bizarre idiot hack nominally to 'save cycles' but really 'because ftmeade asked'
mircea_popescu: but what does it do ?
asciilifeform: and this being unusually transparent, in a cartoon way
jurov: basically it's like "printf has address 0x000002254fe5450"
jurov: and every binary that calls it gets written this addy in it
asciilifeform: sometimes hoses entire box, see epic http://lwn.net/Articles/340121
assbot: Why people don't test development distributions [LWN.net] ... ( http://bit.ly/1UAbLd8 )
mircea_popescu: what
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is sorta like a cache for dynamic linking
asciilifeform: or claims to be.
mircea_popescu: i see.
asciilifeform: today it exists at all only in the most direly diseased pseudolinuxen
mircea_popescu: so what it this supposed to achieve for the putative enemy, make proper allocation impossible or what ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it gives excuse to munge every single executable on the box
asciilifeform: also demolishes aslr
asciilifeform: and creates a number of other interesting difficulties
mircea_popescu: ah right because stuff like hashes no longer mean anything\
mircea_popescu: so what is this, excel-polymorphism ?
jurov: it's supposed to avoid determining where the actual printf is located every time you run some program, which can be solved byt other and better means
asciilifeform: discussing an item like this is almost like anatomizing a teratoma
asciilifeform: as if it were an actual animal
asciilifeform: it is quite far from whatever actual purpose it was conceived for.
mircea_popescu: hey, anatomizing teratoma is exactly how noobs learn cytopathology etc.
asciilifeform: aha!
asciilifeform: hence why i put it on the dissection table here.
mircea_popescu: why the cron job
mircea_popescu: shouldn't this run at the beginning every time ?
asciilifeform: it does.
asciilifeform: and then again, and again...
asciilifeform: WHAT IF YOU HAVE NEW BINARY!111111
mircea_popescu: then let me run it first ?
asciilifeform: that must be victi^H^H^Hoptimized
mircea_popescu: Hoptimized lol
asciilifeform: hopetimized.
asciilifeform: changimized.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform inasmuch as he steal speaks of "its money", orlov doesn't actually get the turkey dollars thing. he earnestly thinks that there is ONE kind of usdollar, and PART of that one is "wasted". whereas the situation in the field is that there's two kinds, ands the bezzle part can only be bezzled with.
mircea_popescu: but anyway.
asciilifeform: anyway prelink was supposed to solve problem of 'why linux box takes multiple minutes to boot'
asciilifeform: via plugging wrong end of funnel, naturally
mircea_popescu: who the fuck boots them
asciilifeform: no one (tm) would ever, say, remove the idiot sea of crud
mircea_popescu: i still don't get this. all this derpage from the early days of systemd "it makes servers boot faster"
mircea_popescu: dude...
asciilifeform: that takes up the boot time
asciilifeform: not servers.
mircea_popescu: this was an actual argument illo tempore.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, who reboots linux.
asciilifeform: laptop folk
asciilifeform: they have no working sleep mode, recall.
mircea_popescu: if a box goes down trying to figure wtf takes 10x to 100x longer than it takes t oboot
asciilifeform: typically.
mircea_popescu: fuck laptop folk.
asciilifeform: they're pre-fucked, the notion was to slightly unfuck'em
mircea_popescu: no. stop interfering with god's will.
mircea_popescu: they deserve to suffer for their portasins.
asciilifeform: (it was 100% fraudulent, as you might expect)
mircea_popescu: "• It spends it on a bunch of aircraft carrier groups. These are very useful for launching attacks on defenseless countries. But it is very important to keep these aircraft carriers outside of conflict zones that may involve China or Russia, or even Iran, because each of these countries has several cost-effective ways to destroy an aircraft carrier: ballistic missiles, supersonic cruise missiles and supersonic torped
mircea_popescu: oes. The entire aircraft carrier fleet is obsolete, and is another huge waste of money." <<< aaaaactually... romania has the capacity to sink us carriers. so does israel. so does brazil
mircea_popescu: so does half the fucking world already. it's not 1990 anymoar.
nubbins`: funkenstein_ merciless mercantile morals!
mircea_popescu: lol re aegis-khibiny thing tho. funny how that's not at all discussed in english huh.
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform>nubbins`: actually ok to tx back to originating addr << 10-4
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: pretty sure everybody knows about the surface torpedo etc
mircea_popescu: prolly the russians just elbowed the something or other.
asciilifeform: it officially Unexists for the purpose of the comical 'war games' the pentagon conducts.
mircea_popescu: and of fucking course the army of dead empire is the nest of corruption. wtf. jannissary corps v2.0
mircea_popescu: i forgot what the chinese thing was called, but anyway.
asciilifeform: one look at the boats and it is pretty obvious that their purpose is ~not~ to fight in battles
asciilifeform: but to move inventory
asciilifeform: logic being, if it burns down and takes 30 f-whateverthefuck planes to the bottom of the sea, so much the better! buy moar!
asciilifeform: ;;later tell BingoBoingo where is the qntra on the police station mega-postal ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1434522 << how much is it ?☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 18:50:31; funkenstein_: i saw something about keccak, afaik maxcoin has the highest hash rate of all keccak coins at the moment
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-03-2016#1434528 << you thought wrong. a bunch of nobodies declared idiocies about things in their head, generally on reddit/medium/wherever they gather.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 16-03-2016 19:04:24; funkenstein_: its a nice idea but already been through the problems i thought
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ;;later tell BingoBoingo where is the qntra on the police station mega-postal ? << WHAT?!?
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/police-take-third-brother-into-custody-in-shooting-of-police-officer/2016/03/14/74b97f36-e9e6-11e5-b0fd-073d5930a7b7_story.html
assbot: Brothers filmed attack on police station that left officer dead, authorities say - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1PctO2i )
asciilifeform: etc
asciilifeform: schmuck walks into police station, spins round and round For Piglet
asciilifeform: cops then open up, killing at least one among selves
asciilifeform: shooter's brothers film whole thing.
BingoBoingo: Interesting mortadella there, will qntra unless you direly want to do it
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: as usual, take it
asciilifeform: i have nothing.
BingoBoingo: Ok, I just suggest it because I know few things as refreshing for the mind as digging into an especially lulzy incident for qntra.
asciilifeform: i would do 10,001 things if had time but i do not,sadly.
asciilifeform: (things incl this)
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: http://dpaste.com/02258P0.txt << deturdified that article for you
asciilifeform: neato
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so wait, an hero killed no-one, police did all the murderin' ?
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: I also found this on LTM within neural nets: http://colah.github.io/posts/2015-08-Understanding-LSTMs/ << It looks as if LTM is possible but pretty complex (gates within the NN itself)
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Any idea where the video is? I can't seem to find it on "World Star Hiphop"
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: nfi
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: correct
deedbot-: [Qntra] Aspiring 'An Hero' Survives Police Station Assault - http://qntra.net/2016/03/aspiring-an-hero-survives-police-station-assault/
mircea_popescu: lol
BingoBoingo: Just to be pedantic 'An Hero' is the technical term for anyone acting with intent to off themselves
BingoBoingo: In this sense Ford was a failure
mircea_popescu: aha.
BingoBoingo: Meanwhile Lavoy Finicum was a hero because he was fighting the powah
BingoBoingo: ;;google an hero
gribble: An Hero | Know Your Meme: <http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/an-hero>; Urban Dictionary: an hero: <http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=an+hero>; An hero - Encyclopedia Dramatica: <https://encyclopediadramatica.se/An_hero>
nubbins`: maybe he an hero'd by pretending to reach for a weapon
nubbins`: i think this is called "an hero by cop"
BingoBoingo: By running the initial blockade Finicum was clearly excercising his duty to evade in an effort to continue the fight later
BingoBoingo: Also the FBI did squeeze of a couple shots before his hands went anywhere near his waistband
mircea_popescu: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 402984 | Current Difficulty: 1.584272037673917E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 403199 | Next Difficulty In: 215 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 6 hours, 42 minutes, and 51 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
BingoBoingo: ;;nethash
gribble: 1218294335.6
mircea_popescu: jurov done.
jurov: ty!
deedbot-: [Qntra] America Rejected By All But Its Worst - http://qntra.net/2016/03/america-rejected-by-all-but-its-worst/
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: where do i get the correct lsd to digest that article.
funkenstein_: BingoBoingo, you saw the footage from inside the Lavoy Finicum mobile?
BingoBoingo: funkenstein_: decline to comment
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Which?
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: If you are talking Kasich the correct lsd is the one that extracts lulz from setting the man up to fail.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: life - or what passes for life - in usaschwitz - happens on the coasts.
BingoBoingo: I don't know anything of these coasts.
BingoBoingo: The Bahamas gang's reign is ending and the electoral progress is a mess in an effort to rig the contest in Clitler's favor. Qntra however has to prepare for lulztingencies. Among these is a contested convention.
BingoBoingo: Seriously though I know nothing of Coastal life in USia
BingoBoingo: I know places where actual food happens seasonally and mass food is recycled in the fields though the Corn Cycle. I rightly can't believe the Coast or Death phenomenon as anything other than a form of Stockholm syndrome.
shinohai: join #verge
shinohai: shit
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 415.37, vol: 4238.65955648 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 413.825, vol: 5827.13841 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 417.17, vol: 6827.4166771 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 419.962284, vol: 23502.07510000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 417.335, vol: 1466.60524061 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 424.402224, vol: 61.35244944 | Volume-weighted last average: 418.104775095
BingoBoingo: ;;more
gribble: Error: You haven't asked me a command; perhaps you want to see someone else's more. To do so, call this command with that person's nick.
asciilifeform: http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/news/20030701/nth-country.pdf << historic lulz (unrelated.)
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1S4POAE )
asciilifeform: (warning: massive scan)
BingoBoingo: http://phys.org/news/2016-03-storks-winter-migration-favor-junk.html
assbot: Storks give up on winter migration in favor of junk food ... ( http://bit.ly/2552Jtv )
mats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p72KRQwYeMo
assbot: Failed Attack Of Russian Terrorists On Ukrainian Armed Forces. (English subtitles) - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/2553tyF )
BingoBoingo: In other news Orange Clinton is threatening riots if the RNC convention denies him the nomination
mircea_popescu: that's a new one.
mircea_popescu: who the fuck is supposed to have made that youtube video ?
mircea_popescu: "directly to that bush" ? srsly ?
mircea_popescu: nobody can be this inept. "armed forces" ? ffs.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21350 @ 0.00042004 = 8.9679 BTC [-] {2}
mats: amateur hour
mod6: o/
mod6: <+trinque> mod6: what's the proper way to get you changes for v.pl? would be nice when press blows up to be told what vpatch barfed. want to just add that yourself? << hey, uumm... so yeah, i think it does tell you which one barfed on press. did you use (v | verbose) in there? or have a dpaste of what it did?
mod6: also: /bin/sh: 1: Syntax error: Unterminated quoted string << i think you can resolve this locally by installing gawk
mod6: anyway, I see you patch, thanks for posting. when I get around to making another version of V, i'll throw that in there.
mod6: s/you/your/
trinque: k, ty
mod6: mircea_popescu asciilifeform ben_vulpes trinque phf, et. al., I've been mulling it over while i've been following the logs for some days now about what seems like a good fork to have in our possession: at this point, im inclined to think implementation of Mr. P.'s outlined ideas are the best choice, currently.
mod6: However, my main objective is still to finish up the v054 release before diving into any of that quite yet. It's my fault, I havent done jack-shit all month basically. I've been meaning to work with trinque and get these makefiles battle-ready, but have had a number of meatspace things get in the way.
mircea_popescu: eh no matter of fault mod6
mircea_popescu: the thing is, the more features the putative fork has, the better, i suppose.
mircea_popescu: except by features i don't mean "features". obviously.
mod6: hehe, ofc.
mircea_popescu: healing the relay-miner divide, if in fact the thing on trilema does it, would be a great one.
mircea_popescu: but possibly there's other easy fruit to pick
mircea_popescu: too bad i constantly strangle the easy fruit pickers. if only they fucking picked in THAT direction ffs.
jurov: mod6: Mr P.'s outlined ideas would benefit from deeper adversarial analysis, maybe it comes out it's possible only 1000 times slower using rainbow tables or other techniques I proposed in the comments
mircea_popescu: jurov quite so.
mircea_popescu: dja understand the amended form we came to well ?
mod6: jurov: ah, very much so.
mircea_popescu: maybe it'd benefit from a going over once more.
jurov: yes pls
mod6: i like what i've read, more analysis and discussion of implementation decisions are required for sure. i think we'll get there as this thread continues over the next 45 days.
mircea_popescu: ok. so currently, for every block being mined : a header is calculated ; to this a nonce is added, the combine hashed. the resultant hash has to be smaller than a number to qualify as a found block.
mircea_popescu: word ?
jurov: yes
mod6: ya.
mircea_popescu: in the proposed model : a header is calculated, same way. to this, anonce is added, the combine hashed. this is hash 1. a digest is calculated, on the basis of past blocks. to this, the SAME nonce is added. the combine hashed. this is hash 2
mircea_popescu: BOTH hash 1 and hash 2 have to be under a number to qualify as a found block.