log
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ben_vulpes: shinohai: "bitcoin wallet interoperability"
shinohai: I thought that was what protocol was supposed to accomplish
ben_vulpes: all you need for "wallet interoperability" is to make transaction scripts with OP_PUBKEY or OP_PUBKEYHASH followed by...a pubkey, or the hash thereof.
ben_vulpes: "export/import compatibility" hue
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-02#1636123 << lol, luke-jr 'Core Developer' ; Mycelium; Electrum; TREZOR; misc. crapola☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-02 23:44 shinohai: https://s3nd.org/berlin2017 <<< Behold the derpitude of "The Bitcoin Wallet Standards Development Initiative"
asciilifeform: Johann Barbie BitGo << wasn't this d00d hanged at nuremberg ?
asciilifeform: or hm, that was klaus b.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-02#1636096 << bonus: the tab/window this loads in is ~self-closing~ in chrome and similar☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-02 21:38 mircea_popescu: "the page at https://googleads.g.doubleclick.net says [object Object]"
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-02#1636095 << dun seem to be in pf, but in php liquishit luserfriendly gui frontend☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-02 21:24 shinohai: http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2017/Mar/71 <<< pfsense firewalls, we keep u safe!
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-02#1636098 << i could almost hear that soundtrack playing☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-02 22:14 phf: i suspect saifedean is pitching various audiences to create a buzz for his upcoming book, because the way he opened seemed like a cold call. "normies" "bezzle this bezzle that" every phrase felt like it was lifted from a "wake up sheeple" video with that matrix soundtrack
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-02#1636100 << 'made a book, achievement!111' evaporated some time in 2010, when 'print on demand' appeared☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-02 22:22 mircea_popescu: i very much doubt it. the time for unsolicited manuscripts was sometime in between the summer of 90something and the autumn of the same 90something. nobody can tell you precisely when, but in any case "i made a book" is precisely the same as "i made a used condom"
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron that's nice, but the whole "i quit lawyering to write full time" narrative didn't work out.
asciilifeform: there are still a few academic publishers with something like tattered remnant of credibility (cambridge; springer -- ~maybe~) but probably soon -- not
mircea_popescu: pod is actually from the 90s.
asciilifeform: pod as accessible-to-groundlings is circa ~2010.
asciilifeform: (as in -- wholly unfiltered access)
mircea_popescu: there is that.
asciilifeform: i have random crapolade printed, routinely.
asciilifeform: to take to bed.
asciilifeform: it costs ~0.
asciilifeform: cheaper than ~own laser printer~
asciilifeform: (i shit thee not)
asciilifeform: use to own a binding machine. threw it out.
asciilifeform: *used
asciilifeform: nomoar.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: gotta printer to recommend?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'lulu' works
asciilifeform: (just be sure to avoid ticking 'show in public' box, unless of course you go in for exhibitionism)
asciilifeform: there may be cheaper/higher quality/whichever shops nao
asciilifeform: lulu knows how to do hardcovers, and they aren't half bad qualitywise.
asciilifeform: i got a nice hardcover of https://www.ada-ru.org/V-0.4w/index.html , for instance, made.
asciilifeform: tbh oughta enjoy these 'print one copy for my desk' shops while they last. i suspect that amazon will eventually kill them.
ben_vulpes: aye aye
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform's use, if it isn't obvious, is a fairly obvious abuse. the 'intended' use is of course for chump to be used as a 'content generator' draft horse by the hucksters, a la traditional publishing )
ben_vulpes: i wonder if there's some proportional relationship between setup/distribution costs and size of target niches
ben_vulpes: anyways, hey asciilifeform have you ever built the trb test target?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the one that came in genesis ?
asciilifeform: dun think so
ben_vulpes: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/makefile.unix?v=wires_rev1#0135
ben_vulpes: yeah
asciilifeform: i've nfi if it ever worked.
ben_vulpes: complains about inabilty to find openssl/ec.h
ben_vulpes: currently attempting to reason about differences between targets bitcoind and test_bitcoin
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-03#1636163 << i only know re lulu's rates; they are flat (or rather, depend on pg count, paper type, and process - colour vs bw -- strictly)☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-03 03:46 ben_vulpes: i wonder if there's some proportional relationship between setup/distribution costs and size of target niches
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc the test target built a turd that exercised data structures, serialization, etc. rather than whole thing
ben_vulpes: yeah i know
asciilifeform: i can't say i ever had any interest in getting that part to work.
asciilifeform: shitoshi's turd is an incurable patient, in my eyes.
ben_vulpes: reasonabru opinion
ben_vulpes: shiva might be a better tool for wiggling random code paths anyways
asciilifeform: dunno that anybody is still playing with shiva
ben_vulpes: nobody's playing with the tests either!
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes apparently was
ben_vulpes: well i'd like to
shinohai actually still has a bitcoind with shiva baked in on a lab lappy but is still learning the schema bits ...
ben_vulpes: the scheme/c seam is as real as the emacs/linux seam
BingoBoingo: In lizard unsanctioned pizzagates https://archive.is/sQWw4
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes one's the testnet iirc
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: not by my read
ben_vulpes: http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/test/test_bitcoin.cpp?v=wires_rev1#1088
mircea_popescu: yeah, right, one's the kinda-almost test harness
ben_vulpes: mhm
Framedragger: http://i.imgur.com/VS7GiEm.jpg
mircea_popescu: Framedragger does she tits ?
Framedragger: i can ask but i can also defer this honourable query to mr. shinohai (i dont know her personally)
Framedragger: he seems to have perfected his processes :p
mircea_popescu: lel
Framedragger: anyway it's a fucking trend. 'professors' jacking off on fucktrumpianism in "unis"
mircea_popescu: im sure. the place didn't go to shit on its own.
mircea_popescu: but the solution is relatively simple anyway. "honey, you're not going to """college""", you're going to either riadh or beijing, and if by the time you're 20 you're not either married or coming back with a million you're not my daughter.
Framedragger: when compared, it *is* a clear KPI cf. "uni performance" etc. heh.
mircea_popescu: offspring gotta become capable to fend for self, that's the point and the definition of parenthood.
mircea_popescu: by the time she's 18 she ~absolutely~ must be working at a profit. no matter the fuck what.
Framedragger: absolutely, question is if there's any middle ground, i mean, less extreme approaches (extreme by my standards of course)
Framedragger: "disowning" etc.
mircea_popescu: this is the most middling of approaches, since it has to do with her cunt.
mircea_popescu: other approaches are more extreme if they focus on limbs.
Framedragger: right :)
mircea_popescu: they are after all called "extremities"
mircea_popescu: (this may sound like it's a joke. it is not a joke. review your standard issue systems design manual (don't tell me they forgot to issue you one!))
mircea_popescu: ("oh but mp, we get to decide when logic applies and when it doesn't!" "riight...")
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron how do i get stuff from your blog that's older than feb ?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-03#1636187 << mno, i killed testnet with own hands (at that point it hadn't been of any use in some years) : http://btcbase.org/patches/asciilifeform_lets_lose_testnet☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-03 05:15 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes one's the testnet iirc
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dja remember where receiving of 1st batch FUCKGOATS was announced ?
asciilifeform: on danielpbarron's www
asciilifeform: iirc.
mircea_popescu: can't seem to find it nao.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22danielpbarron.com%22 << also apparently unreported ?
asciilifeform: the report was 'here's 100 for sale'
mircea_popescu: hm. i suspect there's something amiss with his site. anyway.
shinohai: Framedragger: In my experience they nearly all tits with the right motivation :D
Framedragger: hah good to hear :p
shinohai: As I lamented to mircea_popescu the other day though, it is difficult to get them to see the value in Bitcoin (cam/twithos)
shinohai: Otherwise there would be more:
shinohai: !~tits
jhvh1: ( . Y . ) http://trilema.com/2014/ill-pay-for-your-tits/ ( . Y . )
mircea_popescu: lol neat.
mircea_popescu: (. Y .) ( .Y. ) (.Y.)
mircea_popescu: hard to decide which look better...
shinohai: ( o Y o ) < Giant areolas ?
mircea_popescu: lel
mircea_popescu: anyway, twennybux was iirc the international price of the alley blowjob. so...
shinohai: !~later tell jurov Could you have a peek at my order #14214 when you haz time plz?
jhvh1: shinohai: The operation succeeded.
shinohai likes how `areola` gets wavy red lines under because not found in spellcheck dictionary ...
asciilifeform: !!up adlai
deedbot: adlai voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: adlai: let's have it
adlai: S.NSA delivers! well under Two Weeks, too. http://imgur.com/a/zUqmy
Framedragger: ooh israel, cool
Framedragger: i envy the weather
shinohai: adlai gets an ungulate shipped to Israel! >.>
adlai: Framedragger: it actually rained yesterday, but probably the last rain before fall
Framedragger: fuck me
adlai: no, fuck /goats/
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/no-such-labs-snsa-march-2017-statement/ << Trilema - No Such lAbs (S.NSA), March 2017 Statement
adlai sets up collection as per http://nosuchlabs.com section 4
shinohai: !!up adlai
deedbot: adlai voiced for 30 minutes.
adlai: shinohai: congratulations on your impending entitlement
shinohai: ty adlai, cheers! o/
shinohai wonders if he should build a Russian-style palace with tit-shaped domes .....
adlai: re:RAGEMASTER, couldn't such an implant be mitigated by shielding the cable? (and destroying after use, in case it 'remembers')
asciilifeform: adlai: 'shielded cable' is still quite unshielded on the 2 ends..
asciilifeform: (and the diff b/w a shield and an antenna is the ground. who is going to test the grounds? adlai ?)
adlai: i'm specifically thinking about the implants that require illumination, looks like this one could be trivially foiled (literally)
adlai: in other news, this FG unit appears fully sad (no tty output) unless /both/ modules are attached
Framedragger: isn't that by design?
adlai: it should be half-sad, according to the vendor docs
Framedragger: were both of them present during power-up? i think the idea is to remove them once it's powered up. then it'd be half duty cycle SAD. (haven't tested myself yet tho)
adlai: aha, i can fool it: if a module is removed while it barfs, then it keeps barfing as half-sad
Framedragger: by 'fool' you mean 'as intended' :)
adlai: fwiw this is not 'as instructed', the instructions say to remove both, then add one, switch it across, and then add the second
adlai: following the instructions to the letter results in a fully-sad FG until the final stage
Framedragger: ah if they do - sorry. this was from me reading online doc (http://nosuchlabs.com/), "3)"
Framedragger: "Note: Both RNG-TW (Analogue) modules must be present and in working order during power-up, or FUCKGOATS will remain in a SAD state (steady RED lamp.) When performing basic tests, start with a powered FUCKGOATS, with BOTH RNG-TW (Analogue) modules installed. "
Framedragger: !!up adlai
deedbot: adlai voiced for 30 minutes.
Framedragger: oh that actually werks
Framedragger moving self meat
adlai: Framedragger: ty. that note is correct, but the included printout omits it, thus my confusion.
adlai: anyway no biggie.
mircea_popescu: fucking cicadas. sound exactly like fans getting ready to bite it.
asciilifeform: adlai: the online doc is authoritative.
asciilifeform: ( new crates have updated paper copy. )
asciilifeform: also there always remains the option of reading the src !!
asciilifeform: y'know, like folx oughta do.
shinohai: mircea_popescu: same here, and it looks like alien inception or something when they do that 7 yr molting cycle. Damned exoskeletons everywhere.
asciilifeform: where asciilifeform lives, there is a cicadacalypse every 17y
asciilifeform: as in, 1+ per sq. m. of asphalt !
shinohai: "Neotibicen pronotalis is the loudest cicada in North America, and can achieve 108.9 decibels."
asciilifeform: btw, this is not a bad time to explain WHY i set it up so that fg remains 'sad' until BOTH rng start up
asciilifeform: it is so as to make the deterministic test possible. turns out, the warm-up of crystal oscillator is NOT deterministic. so if you let the thing begin IMMEDIATELY when the clock is valid,
asciilifeform: you will not have repeatable operation.
asciilifeform: on the other hand, there is no external input into the box other than the 2 rng.
asciilifeform: (and the optional clock-in)
asciilifeform: the optional clock-in is subject to the same caveat as the internal clock
asciilifeform: so that leaves the rng.
asciilifeform: so we wait for EACH rng : http://btcbase.org/patches/fg-genesis#L360 : to pulse, before entering normal operation.
asciilifeform: this was a pretty serious puzzler, incidentally, for a long time i could not get the deterministic mode to work, and thought that i might have to scrap the design.
mircea_popescu: i recall that adventure.
mircea_popescu: the conclusion being that i'm pretty sure they no longer ~actually manufacture~ the quartz tuning forklets, but instead just produce a soup of the things and then filter the functional ones out or some such
asciilifeform: they're laser-cut
asciilifeform: and yes, sorted (and price-graded)
asciilifeform: and also shift with temperature.
ben_vulpes: ah cute, `find-tags' is deprecated but its replacement `xref-find-definitions' ~doesn't work with c/++ projects
danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-03#1636211 << for now, like this: http://archive.is/danielpbarron.com☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-03 12:48 mircea_popescu: danielpbarron how do i get stuff from your blog that's older than feb ?
mircea_popescu: https://www.thelocal.at/20170128/hotel-ransomed-by-hackers-as-guests-locked-in-rooms << was this in the logs btw ?
mircea_popescu: apparently idjits finally gave up on "new! better!" digital locks after being ransomed 4 or so times.
asciilifeform: pretty sure it was in the logs.
mircea_popescu: apparently bitcoin is useful for something after all.
mircea_popescu: ah i must have missed it.
asciilifeform: oh adlai btw that bag was quite certainly opened en route.
asciilifeform: ( they didn't bother to re-wrap the tape in the same direction i did !! lol. )
asciilifeform: !!up adlai
deedbot: adlai voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: this doesn't necessarily mean 'molested', i suspect that most mail from usa gets opened in customs.
asciilifeform: but there it is.
adlai: on further inspection there are a few small pieces of scotch tape holding the mailing labels in place. if you didn't put these there, then maybe the entire envelope was replaced?
asciilifeform: those -- were put on at the post office in front of me.
adlai: ah. the envelope's seal seemed intact, so they must have worked magic with solvents and glue
asciilifeform: adlai: that 'seal' happily pulls off and reattaches intact 2-3 times.
asciilifeform: with bare hands.
adlai: it was quite well glued by the time it reached my hands
mircea_popescu: aand in random lulz nobody cares about, http://www.anamorodan.com/a-dose-of-reality/
asciilifeform: yeah i suspect most of the postal rape happens ~in~ usa side, adlai
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: wtf is this horror
mircea_popescu: aged female with countess gargauni on a third world income.
mircea_popescu: (ex lawyer. re http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-22#1630740 http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-24#1617673 etc)☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-22 00:29 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, that's my point, OUT OF THE FUYCKING QUESTION she can, or that any one who was actually a lawyer would even consider trying.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-24 17:52 mircea_popescu: ahaha oh this is delishious. "My work has appeared in LA Weekly, Vice, Curbed, Complex, ANIMALS, The Daily Dot, and LosAngeles.com" << dork quit law school because tucker max said to and is now a relationships advicerist.
mircea_popescu: anyway, lulzy shit, romania is still in the "first best greatest" age of troglodytism. come to think of it will prolly stay there forever, fucktards can't read.
shinohai: Speaking of Romania ..... https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8M4ETjUwAA_i-i.jpg
shinohai will indeed follow her upstairs.
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/2B1524EA1F2005F151BF5AD14F05A4770CF229AF2A85CF93EE13DE7B29BF16BA << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1494...9557 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '85.192.160.243 (ssh-rsa key from 85.192.160.243 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (lk-auto.ru. RU KHA)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/2B1524EA1F2005F151BF5AD14F05A4770CF229AF2A85CF93EE13DE7B29BF16BA << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1513...7513 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '85.192.160.243 (ssh-rsa key from 85.192.160.243 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (lk-auto.ru. RU KHA)
asciilifeform: ^ lol, awd auto dealership
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F67EDDF10BEAB4C4D0A161FE40C1AE62CD442D211F0A90FBD538D4EA4911BA94 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1363...0633 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '92.221.145.103 (ssh-rsa key from 92.221.145.103 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (103.92-221-145.customer.lyse.net. NO)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F67EDDF10BEAB4C4D0A161FE40C1AE62CD442D211F0A90FBD538D4EA4911BA94 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1718...5037 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '92.221.145.103 (ssh-rsa key from 92.221.145.103 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (103.92-221-145.customer.lyse.net. NO)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BE3A2C56ABBFDC69088A0DD7876215EC7EA4ED640493A522564D5B07BB5A5CED << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1527...1917 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '129.199.13.12 (ssh-rsa key from 129.199.13.12 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown FR 75 J)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BE3A2C56ABBFDC69088A0DD7876215EC7EA4ED640493A522564D5B07BB5A5CED << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1659...4883 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '129.199.13.12 (ssh-rsa key from 129.199.13.12 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown FR 75 J)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/8D0B23D9C56BE4BC7261FEE604AB406EC7BEA23D86D1C0DBA414C1B2E3AC94EE << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1525...4537 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '62.182.62.80 (ssh-rsa key from 62.182.62.80 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (80-62.182.62.static.priorweb.net. BE)
deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/8D0B23D9C56BE4BC7261FEE604AB406EC7BEA23D86D1C0DBA414C1B2E3AC94EE << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1731...7039 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '62.182.62.80 (ssh-rsa key from 62.182.62.80 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (80-62.182.62.static.priorweb.net. BE)
CompanionCube: Phuctor seems to be on a roll right now.
shinohai ssh's in and deletes everyone's car pymt info, becoming the Robin Hood of Autos http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-03#1636328☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-03 17:23 asciilifeform: ^ lol, awd auto dealership
asciilifeform: CompanionCube: this is the typical daily yield. it usually comes out in 2-3 bursts tho.
CompanionCube: asciilifeform: it normally feels more spread-out than this
CompanionCube: dealer ship's ssh: 'SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.9p1 Debian-5ubuntu1.7'
asciilifeform: CompanionCube: ~90% of the yield to date, is on account of debian
asciilifeform: 'gift that keeps on giving'
CompanionCube: asciilifeform: the 'debianized' boxes, as you call them right?
CompanionCube: no response from the 2nd/3rd, SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_4.7p1 Debian-8ubuntu1 for the last one.
Framedragger: CompanionCube: you can use `!$ getarchive some_ip some_other_ip . . .` to get banners from the time of scan. (can do this as privmsg, `/msg scriba help`)
CompanionCube: ah, thanks
Framedragger: (sorry meant, can *also* do this as privmsg)
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-16#1453092 << as an ignoble fucktard (who got killed by the very golum he helped create) put it.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-04-16 18:25 mircea_popescu: "debian world's first [albeit primitive] app store" jesus fucking christ i've never been this insulted in my life.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: shit i meant `!$ ssh` not getarchive, i'm forgetting myself lol.
Framedragger: and i meant CompanionCube not mircea_popescu
Framedragger: too much coffee for me
mircea_popescu: how's the ganja brother
Framedragger: dope'y. i can't see the keyboard through all this dope smoke
mircea_popescu: dope.
deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/the-comfort-of-strangers/ << Trilema - The Comfort of Strangers
Framedragger: btw will see if i can set up complete re-scan in ~june (should be easier this time, ~all of logic was scripted and recorded)
Framedragger: (maybe earlier)
mircea_popescu: should be funny to see what % of computers stay the same
Framedragger: yeah, definitely.
Framedragger: i'm sure the results would match opinions of teh experts as usual
Framedragger: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-31#1635314 << pretty fascinating; does this fall under the category of CRISPR (complete amateur question)? as in, "shit inserted in your dna by $parasite long ago, now you depend on it"☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-31 19:19 mircea_popescu: here's some random lul : wolbachia is possibly the most successful bacteria ; in any case is the most widely distributed sexual transmitted disease ; about half of all insects extant carry some form ; many species can't reproduce if uninfected, or cant' even survive.
Framedragger bbl
Framedragger: (just tried to come up with an actual definition of CRISPR, too deep, failed, so not even sure if q makes sense)
Framedragger: wait no CRISP is the *immune response* to shit like ^. something like "distributed redundant backups of parts of dna" (repeated sequences). so nvm, 2deep4me
Framedragger: CRISPR*
ben_vulpes: in which nerds continue to assume that basic problems of coordination and capital allocation can be solved with technology, specifically ethereum: https://blog.ethlance.com/ethlance-introducing-job-sponsorships-84a7f7ca07d3
Framedragger: fascinating (also their invoice and employment examples are very convincing)
Framedragger: ^ re above, last noob note, so [citing HN so grain of salt, etc.] this one gene (Cas9) has two functions: locating a dna sequence matching given chunk of rna, and cutting dna at that location. this substr() and insert_at_location().. together with some other genes it probably makes the whole thing turing complete. (~known, but particular demonstrations are interesting.) (also probably in the logs heh.)
trinque: ben_vulpes: ofc, because then you get to build a wicked-sweet control room http://afflictor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/cyb.jpg
ben_vulpes: Framedragger: well is it in the logs or not?
Framedragger: i didn't find it (did search).
ben_vulpes: trinque: some day, buddy. some day.
shinohai: lulzy ben_vulpes
shinohai: Perhaps they will find bright minds to repair their replacement DNS, which broke in a day.
ben_vulpes: shinohai: what, still not fixed?
mircea_popescu: !!key Skydragon
deedbot: Not registered.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger not really, no
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes more like idiots, tbh. "any problems we don't understand will be solved by the amulet of not understood problems. we sacrificed the right nuymber of goats on the right day, no need to worry about it."
mircea_popescu: trinque that looks like something straight out of 70s sexploitations.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: control room for brazilian planned economy iirc
mircea_popescu: check out how close i got!
ben_vulpes: you are a marvel
mircea_popescu: i credit watching "women behind bars" right before fading off for a nap earlier.
trinque: chilean actually
trinque: easy to mix up one's utopian, south american communisms
ben_vulpes: aaah
ben_vulpes: that's right
mircea_popescu: especially considering they're little more than off-color naked women anyhow.
shinohai: !!key Skydragon
deedbot: http://wot.deedbot.org/9B6629DDC9016A34681833CEA532F421B50CF7C7.asc
mircea_popescu: and in other three ring bindings, https://68.media.tumblr.com/6b8c7736f7aff642103d4ff36071efa1/tumblr_ont5n3xduf1qmqb21o1_1280.png
shinohai wonders if this is what the guy looks like that operates his twitter account ....
mircea_popescu: i think so ya.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in illegal bestialities, http://dogbeauties.tumblr.com/
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-03#1636371 << is this the one from star dreck, or the imitation that general alexander built at ft meade ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-03 19:32 trinque: ben_vulpes: ofc, because then you get to build a wicked-sweet control room http://afflictor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/cyb.jpg
asciilifeform: (they look quite similar)
mircea_popescu: the things idiots build always look the same.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: chile, turns out
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: oh hey the allende central planning computer thing
asciilifeform: i remember it
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-03#1636368 << lulzy, e.g., 'Now you have to choose authorized addresses that will be allowed to spend funds from sponsors. These addresses will be in charge of evaluating whether work was properly done and therefore they’ll be paying freelancer’s invoices. Note, not even job creator himself has to be allowed to spend funds. Job creator can be somebody who’s willing to spend free time for community☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-03 19:24 ben_vulpes: in which nerds continue to assume that basic problems of coordination and capital allocation can be solved with technology, specifically ethereum: https://blog.ethlance.com/ethlance-introducing-job-sponsorships-84a7f7ca07d3
asciilifeform: to coordinate job (do hiring, communication, etc.), but not necessarily have to be expert in the field to be able to check freelancer’s work (e.g check developer’s code).'
asciilifeform: almost like these folx never heard of sybil etc.
mircea_popescu: these folks never heard of ANYTHING
mircea_popescu: they literally sit on ass all day converse with their own tulpas.
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-03#1636296 << find-tags deprecated?? that's like deprecating self-insert-command or move-beginning-of-line or something. the fuck is wrong with these people☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-03 15:13 ben_vulpes: ah cute, `find-tags' is deprecated but its replacement `xref-find-definitions' ~doesn't work with c/++ projects
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yeah but the impression i used to get in the past, is of cynical fraud, well aware of the sheer lunacy of the claims
asciilifeform: this -- looks like mere idiocy
mircea_popescu: that's how things go. first, cynical fraud. then, a generation grown up on cynical fraud -- all mongoloids.
asciilifeform: phf: hey, they 'deprecated' flymake (that works with all sane compilers past and future) in favour of 'flycheck' liquishit
phf: merely observing maggot activity on the putrefying body
asciilifeform: phf: the 'make bsd with vtronic portagetron' thing looks slightly more appealing every day
asciilifeform: at one point i answered mircea_popescu's 'you could not replicate your workstation' challenge with the gentoo cure. but that will only work 'while supplies last', i'm not even certain when the last time was that anyone tested it
asciilifeform: if gentoo.org etc evaporate, or , as more likely, go the usual way of decay -- that'll be all, for it
mircea_popescu: i know i couldn't get it to the point where eg it's in the eulora wiki as "do this to run eulora"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc you somehow, somewhere got a box where it wouldn't even boot the install disk
mircea_popescu: that's enough.
asciilifeform: ( not a thing i have ever personally witnessed, but new depths of vendor retardation are discovered every day )
asciilifeform: phf, ben_vulpes , shinohai , trinque , anybody ever saw a box like this ?
mircea_popescu: but i confess it'd still be a great thing if i actually had a canned answer for "oh, eulora doesn't run on my system". and it'd be lovely if it'd just happen to consist of you know, $item tmsr actually wants to take over.
mircea_popescu: but... rather distant bridge i'm guessing.
asciilifeform: the eulora thing is complicated because gpu
asciilifeform: afaik all known eulora-capable (e.g. any 3d acceleration at all) gpu require blob
mircea_popescu: nobody ELSE is going to switch systems, you realise.
asciilifeform: and what requires blob, requires very particular (linux 3-4.x) kernel, to eat it.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i was thinking of much more modest item -- replacement of ' asciilifeform's gentoo ' with something replicable on demand, for eternity (vtronic repo, vtronic 'portage')
mircea_popescu: aha
mircea_popescu: certainly the btc musl thing is a major cornerstone in that vein.
mircea_popescu: actually how i even got the idea.
asciilifeform: a thing that exists as buncha genesisen and can turn into a usable workstation os (gcc, gnat, x11, emacs, lynx, etc)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it's a fairly obvious extension of 'rotor'
mircea_popescu: yes.
ben_vulpes pants at the notion
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: pete_dushenski was bitching about a box not eating cdrom recently
ben_vulpes: !#s target mode
a111: 1 result for "target mode", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=target%20mode
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: exotic bigendian thing, neh
ben_vulpes: you asked if i ever
danielpbarron: asciilifeform, i was just thinking that earlier today. I want to host my own portage mirror
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu had what looked like an ordinary x86.
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: it is possible to do it, but the problem is that there is nothing to mirror any longer
asciilifeform: the extant ones are rotten
mircea_popescu: i suspect he meant "my own selection"
danielpbarron: do you not have them?
ben_vulpes: fwiw the trees are intact.
asciilifeform: and ideally we would be killing the heathen swamp rather than placing it on life support
danielpbarron: yeah i got my own, but feel free to tar.gz.asc it to me :D
phf: portage doesn't include the original source code, so even if you have the tree, need to make sure that all the external urls resolve
asciilifeform: ^
ben_vulpes: D:
asciilifeform: phf: and i have found, that quite often -- they do not
shinohai: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-04-03#1636445 <<< THis would be nifty☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-04-03 21:08 danielpbarron: asciilifeform, i was just thinking that earlier today. I want to host my own portage mirror
phf: it's the same with openbsd's ports, netbsd pkgsrc, mac's homebrew, etc.
danielpbarron: it's not enough to just put an IP of my choosing in /etc/portage/make.conf under GENTOO_MIRRORS="" ?
asciilifeform: phf: exactly
ben_vulpes: so nobody vendored?
asciilifeform: phf: which is why a serious answer is to go 'full biosphere'
ben_vulpes: nobody in the history of linux distros vendored
phf: ben_vulpes: what they end up vendoring is binary package artifacts from the port builds
ben_vulpes: what was that...not even "sourcerer"?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: nobody after the age of 'spam cdrom', where, e.g., rathead 5 HAD TO fit on 5 disks 'or what, user will use his dial-up to load the rest?\
asciilifeform: '
mircea_popescu: phf yeah, but still, we have some experience with the neat trb building process. it can be done.
ben_vulpes: phf: bin and not src?
phf: debian vendors, i suspect so does redhat, because they package the original source into own packages
asciilifeform: and yes, phf nails it, nobody 'vendored' sources.
asciilifeform: 'what, luser will build it all?'
mircea_popescu: yes.
danielpbarron: i have some stage3 tarball i keep reusing
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: around the time gentoo irrevocably went to shit, notice, it stopped supporting stage1 builds
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes the history of linux is not like the history of a respectable item. it's like "the history of the human biofilm on the floors of grand central station, 1817-2017".
danielpbarron: i'm not skilled enough to know what stageN even means
mircea_popescu: yes two centuries, but not of SOMETHING.
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: at one time, gentoo came with instructions for how to build it from 0 (using only an existing c compiler, and buncha src tarballs)
mircea_popescu: because "Freedom" dontchaknow, and self-determination, and everyone can just be a bum.
ben_vulpes: ubi can't happen soon enough
trinque: asciilifeform: now there is "stage4"
ben_vulpes: everyone straight to the cinderblock palace
trinque: because the beoble must
asciilifeform: trinque: i stopped reading the 'nows' a while ago.
trinque: better for digestion that
asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu has it, 'house without architect' looks like brazil.
asciilifeform: the modern brazil.
phf: debian comes closest to what would be considered "proper" in tmsr terms. the package archive is curated, the source is fully owned by the package author, etc. you can still grab old debian 10cd sets and have the entire slice of linux computing from the time
asciilifeform: phf: pretty sure it stowed binary packages in there
mircea_popescu: which incidentally is the principal reason mp doesn't speak against the bsd subversion/heresy.
asciilifeform: waiwat
asciilifeform: ( which bsd ? bsd died six different deaths, at different times ..)
phf: asciilifeform: the complete debian releases from back in the day included both package and package source trees
asciilifeform: phf: in my experience if something 'includes both', it really expects you to use binary crapola at ~some~ point.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform neither of them are linux though.
ben_vulpes: !!up derpshart
deedbot: derpshart voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: ~whole point of bsd is to 'not linux' -- the bsds are relics from the time before the 'biofilm', when there was still some coordination and, e.g., same people wrote kernel and userland-utils
ben_vulpes: hose yr key?
phf: asciilifeform: that's a bootstrapping problem though. at least at the time that i'm speaking off, it was ~expected~ that you would do a custom build of some of your packages, and they whole deploy process relied on source packages being built by not-package-author
mircea_popescu: myeah
derpshart: https://thecontrol.co/stablecoins-a-holy-grail-in-digital-currency-b64f3371e111 <-- lulzy idea for alt coin (ethereum token ofc) tied to price of "special drawing rights"
mircea_popescu: phf this is sane, imo. exposes all the dirty hacks which "in kindergarten" etc.
mircea_popescu: derpshart this idea is an uncredited rehash of stuff i said in 2011, aka not an idea.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2013-07-08#130942 etc.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2013-07-08 13:30 mircea_popescu: just like i showed the SDRs as the exact equivalent, and people ignored it because well... they never had one so it don't exist.
trinque: https://man.cx/apt-build(1) << can build all debian packages from source
asciilifeform: trinque: what does it need in order to begin to exist on the box, though ?
asciilifeform: to begin with
trinque: what does rotor need
trinque: in this case needs a debian sitting there, yes
asciilifeform: rotor needs : gcc (all versions tested to date, afaik, worked) and userland utils
asciilifeform: (sed; make; possibly a few others)
trinque: notbad
asciilifeform: iirc it worked even on crapple
derpshart: mircea_popescu interesting analogy
phf: that pretends like bootstrapping problem doesn't exist though. "step 1 find a unix box you can fully trust!1"
asciilifeform: whereas if the debian util needs ~a working debian box~, it solves ~nothing~
asciilifeform: phf: problems that cannot be solved, are to be properly compartmentalized -- consider a house with a toilet, vs one where the occupants shit where they stand.
asciilifeform: yes, no one will ever 'solve' shit.
mircea_popescu: phf the "need gcc and userland utils" you mean ?
asciilifeform: also noteworthy is that gcc ~at one time~ was in fact buildable with non-gcc.
trinque: any of a wide array of options is a different situation than "needs frozen same item as being built"
phf: mircea_popescu: yes, the "you don't actually need a machine, just gcc and userland"
trinque: neither is ideal, which would be a progressive bootstrap from machine code up
asciilifeform: it would be interesting to produce a patched gcc that is happy to build with, e.g., borland c circa 1991.
asciilifeform: this ought to be possible, considering that fabrice bellard got linux kernel to built with his 'tcc'
mircea_popescu: phf i think hes' right though. we're not going to be solving shit.
mircea_popescu: one possible approach would be a... non-optimizing compiler, let's call it a bootstrap compiler.
phf: it seems like to me like we're trying to compartmenalize counterparty problem, but afau from logs you solve counterparty problem through trusted counterparty, not "hygiene" etc.
mircea_popescu: run a "who can wriote the shortest c compiler".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: tcc exists.
asciilifeform: probably oughta be studied
asciilifeform: and adaized.
mircea_popescu: prolly
mircea_popescu: phf delve ?
asciilifeform: phf: we had at least one thread re subj. basic idea that anyone who claims to understand a million-line proggy, is a liar.
asciilifeform: it is physically impossible to do an honest job of such a thing.
mircea_popescu: how long is tcc ?
asciilifeform: and therefore in order for the 'find trusted auditor' to have MEANING, the item being audited must fit-in-head.
mircea_popescu: and afaik it wasn't specifically written to solve the bootstrap problem. prolly could be shortened thertefore.
asciilifeform: http://www.bellard.org/tcc
asciilifeform: seems to be ~77k line.
asciilifeform: and that's with, iirc, no back end.
phf: asciilifeform: you introduce gcc, userland, etc. in the mix already. so either the whole system must fit in head, or else it's not an important prereq for you
asciilifeform: phf: the reason why i have not attempted the contemplated exercise, nor seriously encouraged others to do so, is that you are right -- c and unix MUST die.
asciilifeform: must be killed, with fire.
mircea_popescu: and you'll bitcoin on lisp machine ?
asciilifeform: ^
asciilifeform: the reason the subj comes up again and again
asciilifeform: is that very soon it will be impossible to build a usable comp on demand.
asciilifeform: at all.
phf: lisp machine fwiw doesn't solve bootstrapping problem either.. have to trust a binary blob that you got from your l1
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: i seriously don't see the problem with "i trust this pared down version of tcc - it builds a very slow blob but it does build it - and these tools which i read myself"
trinque: if one's going to set off creating one, might consider making that blob as (auditably) small as possible
mircea_popescu: seems a doable waypoint.
trinque: lisp machine I mean.
trinque: "here's this syslisp written in the machine code of the hardware"
asciilifeform: trinque: i've had an x64 asm scheme thing on back burner for eons.
phf: mircea_popescu: tcc doesn't run on bare metal though
trinque: wrong machine though I gather from you, asciilifeform
asciilifeform: but again, has serious political problem, in my head, in that i would like x64 to DIE, not to live.
trinque: yep
trinque: not wrong approach
mircea_popescu: phf but could be musl'd neh ?
asciilifeform: but on the other hand, at some point the pain will begin to be felt, 'i want to build emacs but where do i get not only it but a box that'll build pre-poettering emacs at all, and where do i even get the gcc that still builds it'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you kill things in the order you can not in the order you want.
asciilifeform: right
mircea_popescu: 1st lesson for young warrior.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: sterling: "i'm astonished that i will probably outlive the 'personal computer'. what would anyone want one of those for these days anyways. 'hey you, do you want a personal computer? you can...compute on it! in private! nobody would ever know!' it just doesn't sell to the touchscreen zombies, no offense to present company."
asciilifeform: but the danger of keeping the fungus alive , when it could have been killed -- is imho very real. it is what linux, for instance, ended up doing: keeping the idiot pc architecture alive long past 1995, when it should have burned
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes the notion that computers are mass market items are ridiculous. no, rakim didn't want one in 1977 either.
mircea_popescu: because rakim is stuck bagging my compras for a fucking reason. and nobody asks him which way the world goes.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: the availability of general-purpose comp was ~pure accident. and quite temporary. just like, say, lathes used to be ubiquitous back when auto repair needed one.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform had pc burned in 1995 you'd be collecting computers from ebay, via tyour tablet today.
asciilifeform: (as they were aboard, e.g., submarines)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i already do this.
ben_vulpes: myeah, still took the americhanskis a few decades to figure it out, and most haven't yet.
mircea_popescu: i do not.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: alternative is to buy shitbox built by chinese for argentina, where power cord comes out of bottom ? and gentoo won't boot
asciilifeform: or which.
phf: mircea_popescu: i think nature of bootstrapping problem is that you have to choose a bedrock that you can affect, and that bedrock falls under counterparty problem. if your bedrock is hardware, then it's foundries that you trust. if your bedrock is a "a unix" then you need to trust a large binary blob. yes you can construct a rube goldberg that gives you unix from bedrock without having trust, but we don't have anything like that
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you lost me.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what i meant is -- i buy comp hardware secondhand, almost always
mircea_popescu: phf do you trust your girlfriend ?
asciilifeform: and yes it means you have to pull the eproms, burn own, etc
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform had pc died in 1985, apple would be in charge of computing today, and all software would consist of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-20#1629701☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-20 20:46 mircea_popescu: in other lulz, the state of casual gaming is completely fucked up. so other than utter throwaways, stuff that looks like someone's undegrad project, the ~entire market of ipad-likes (stuff that works in the browser, or else via a "light" client for windows/mac, or else as a ipad/android etc app) is wholly like this :
mircea_popescu: ALL software.
phf: mircea_popescu: within expected operational parameters
asciilifeform: phf: the need to 'trust the foundry' evaporates under the 'SOLELY fpga fabric' model of computation. we had the thread.
mircea_popescu: phf which is my point. trust is not binary. yes you trust her, but many things she thinks you care about you don't, and even more you care in different contexts and to different levels than she imagines.
phf: asciilifeform: you're just moving the counterparty problem around, which is exactly my point
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: quite conceivably commodore inc would have won -- and pc would come with schematics and signal chart.
asciilifeform: crapple was not, in '80s, what it is today.
asciilifeform: was just another set of derps.
phf: mircea_popescu: that's not directly relevant to my point though
mircea_popescu: if i come up with random "will you phf guarantee to me that if i swab her cheek on so and so date there won't be a spermatozoid in the microscope field", you'll just shrug.
trinque: moving the counterparty problem under a microscope where human can inspect it is not equivalent to the other given cases
mircea_popescu: well that's what i want to discuss, seems to me it's central to the point. what's the disconnect ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform inconceivable, but this discussion is not something we can actually carry satisfactorily i guess. we'll hafta let it be.
asciilifeform: trinque: recall the 'specificity of diddling' thread; inspection is only one of the two known defenses.
asciilifeform: ( the other is to build system out of movable blocks in such a way that it becomes conceptually impossible to build a proper 'surprise' )
asciilifeform: per http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-24#1617495 discussion.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-02-24 02:36 asciilifeform: veen: let's try a historical angle. according to legend, emperor qin shi huangdi (same d00d as known for taking the 'immortality pill' and promptly croaking) had a palace with 1,500 rooms. and would not tell anyone in advance which one he plans to sleep in on a given night. and which ones he would put cutthroats in, ready to kill anyone who opens door. think 'minesweeper.'
phf: mircea_popescu: trust in bootstrapping problem is a specific concern that comes from ken thompson's "reflections on trusting trust"
mircea_popescu: phf state it ?
phf: you can design a malicious bootstrapper that will compromise the bootstrapped code
mircea_popescu: you can do this ?
phf: so it's irrelevant if the bootstrapped code is inspectable
mircea_popescu: i think we're not talking of the same thing. so, i have, for the sake of argument, a 50k line bcc, which builds c and doesn't optimize. it's my bootstrapping compiler. it runs on musl, say. i fire up a pogo, put this on, and proceed to build a kernel during the next week.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile you, catchingwind of this, go into your thomspon shrine, say abracadabra and now my kernel is infected with phf-rat ?
phf: the machine that you built your bcc on could already be infected, and the resulting bcc binary is compromised
asciilifeform: nah. try different angle:
mircea_popescu: phf but will it necessarily be infected ?
asciilifeform: let's say that every machine that ever saw a linux kernel tarball, since, say, 2002, patched it.
asciilifeform: so nobody's checksum fails, etc.
asciilifeform: including author's.
phf: gcc has a long living nsa hack that modifies some pattern in a malicious way, etc.
asciilifeform: ( not to say that this is practical, but it would be ~the~ thompson angle. )
asciilifeform: aha. ideally something very simple, that 'looks like typo'
trinque being an idiot in these matters, has a very stupid (and unfinished) scheme in x86-64 asm
asciilifeform: an off-by-one in array,e tc
asciilifeform: trinque: i suspect that almost everyone here has one
trinque: so then, the path is up from there. I fail to see the flaw with it (other than wrong arch)
asciilifeform: trinque: i stopped working on subj when i utterly failed, after many months of effort, to get an ab initio GB nic driver to exist
trinque: right, so that's a separate matter
asciilifeform: trinque: the flaw is that you gotta support a megatonne of liquishit for even nic to work -- dma, page tables, etc
asciilifeform: it isn't a 'separate matter', it is a lifetime of liquishit pumping
trinque: no. it is entirely separate from "does this approach to bootstrapping work"
asciilifeform: you can view the result of the last set of folx who did it, 'movitz', which boots on 0 modern irons.
trinque: it is miles from there
ben_vulpes: throw the nic out, we're going to shortwave anyways
asciilifeform: enemy pumps in new hardware that 'you MUST support, or otherwise you WILL buy your comps on ebay strictly' faster than you can driver.
trinque: yes still have to apply the WoT to whether I can trust the man, but if I *do*, it is possible to be said that the man who started from step 1 had the whole fucker in his head.
trinque: he wrote the ASM
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: if i can't connect comp to $othercomp at bus speed - you lost me.
asciilifeform: trinque: problem is that every gb nic in existence needs a blob.
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm not saying that it's going to be infected. i'm saying that's what trust means in a bootstrapping problem. if you're not concerned about that angle, you can relax trust requirements significantly.
asciilifeform: (and afaik every 100M nic currently in production)
trinque: conversation has to proceed outward for it to work
trinque: just like the imagined item
asciilifeform: trinque: the x64 box that 'you can get the docs for' is , as i learned experimentally and very painfully -- a strictly imagined item
trinque: the ASM builds syslisp, syslisp builds compiler, compiler builds system approach works
trinque: stated by novice, ofc
asciilifeform: you cannot gabriel_laddel your way around the shitfest that is the iron.
asciilifeform: dun have to take my word for it, can try it yourself, burn a decade like i did.
trinque: !!gettrust trinque asciilifeform
deedbot: L1: 3, L2: 13 by 8 connections.
trinque: nah I hear ya :p
asciilifeform: ( consider naggum's description -- 'our field does not actually advance, because we are broken people who do not learn from mistakes' or how was it. )
trinque: question is whether "I must ask $guy for $binaryblob" or not.
asciilifeform: incidentally, in olden days, most folks used no asmer
asciilifeform: they asmed on grid paper
asciilifeform: and rom burners were often boxes with hex keypads
trinque: answer's trivially yes, but size of the thing isn't moot. or do I misrepresent phf?
asciilifeform: it is not difficult to build a gadget that dumps an eprom to paper tape
asciilifeform: and such a gadget is not, save for the eprom, in the usual sense 'electronic'
mircea_popescu: phf now now. don't squirm away. let's have the discussion. what exactly IS the concern.
asciilifeform: (can simply be row of lamps, and moving photo paper.)
mircea_popescu: state it plainly and without reference, in its complete formulation.
phf: mircea_popescu: unless you have full control over your bootstrap machine you're not guaranteed to have full control over your bootstrapped machine.
asciilifeform: trinque: so, while machine requires 'blob' to boot (note though, e.g., pdp8, did not, also had hex keypad) -- it is not necessarily true that said 'blob' is not optically readable by human.
mircea_popescu: phf this is elementarily false. i don't have full control over eg female biology, enjoy full control over my slavegirls.
mircea_popescu: i don't have full control over turbulent flow, nevertheless fly unmolested. and so following.
mircea_popescu: let's distinguish the genuine problem from "sky is falling in pies and nsa owns thermodynamics"
trinque: seems to underscore the need to inspect outputs and comprehend them
trinque: ties in with asciilifeform's too
phf: well, i didn't finish
phf: .
mircea_popescu: trinque they're blisfully unaware of the power of comparison, which is why that part of the discussion keeps being shied away from.
mircea_popescu: phf oh sorry.
mircea_popescu: please put a terminator when you're done and i'ma do my best to ignore the interlopers!
phf: well, i think that the comparison is obscures the actual point
mircea_popescu: no, no, start over. full statement of the problem, explicitly terminated. ty.
phf: kk
phf: any arbitrary chain of "i compile tcc that i use to compile gcc that i use to compile kernel" can be compromised even if you have full sources, read and understood etc. of tcc, gcc and kernel.
phf: you introduce the hack in the original compiler that you used to compile tcc. the original compiler, having prior knowledge of the chain, or some arbitrary compilation of chains, will ensure that the first tcc you get will propagate the hack further down
trinque: phf: that problem is introduced *by* the urge to write your compiler in its own language, neh?
phf: in this case control of the bootstrap machine is at the very least equivalent to "if i compile a source, would the behavior of the binary correspond to what the compiler specification fully or not"
phf: and the lack of control means that your bootstrap machine compiler can do arbitrary things to the binary
phf: that's the point so far
asciilifeform: i will add to phf's summary -- if the problem afflicted ~strictly~ compilers, it would be quite easy to solve -- write bootstrap in asm. but there is no rule that it has to affect strictly compiler. could just as easily be - say - the ~loader~.
asciilifeform: anything that eats a maybe-inspected input and produces a never-inspected-but-is-executed output.
trinque: nobody contests the problem exists; it'd be more interesting to discuss where to put it.
mircea_popescu: phf the premise ("1 item can be compromised") is true ; this however is not a ~systematic~ concern. the reason it isn't a systematic concern has everything to do with the imaginary concept of "the hash with checksum". suppose 1) a hash function existed which 2) contained a secret which 3) allowed the possessor to distiguish possible inputs into two classes and then on the basis of the result know whether the input that led to
mircea_popescu: it was class 1 or 2. this is an equivalent notation of the thompson problem for compilers (there's no difference between hashing and compiling in this sense).
mircea_popescu: the problem with this, however, is that the magical hash-with-checksum function ~does not exist~. it's part of trilema sf for a reason.
mircea_popescu: what does exist is a version whereby the secret can be built ~on the basis of~ given inputs.
mircea_popescu: and this sad limitation fundamentally weakens the process, so that if i keep building more complex inputs your ability to make the prediction weakens (by the log of the count, in the pure case)
mircea_popescu: need i break out the math for this or is it obvious from stating ?
asciilifeform: thompson's demo worked for arbitrary N layers.
asciilifeform: trivially.
mircea_popescu: for arbitrary unary layerts.
mircea_popescu: "man in cave"
asciilifeform: (incidentally ~all extant c compilers 'thompsonize' and nobody even seems to notice, because it passes as 'optimize')
asciilifeform: gcc (yes even 4.x) will happily remove certain checks
mircea_popescu: hey, i proposed unoptimizing compiler for the role for reasons!
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: but whereever in the loop one begins to use, e.g., gcc -- from that point on, thompsonized.
asciilifeform: (even if bootloader -- wasn't)
mircea_popescu: not necessarily.
mircea_popescu: and the "not necessarily" sinks it, because now i have what to compare, and that's the end of that.
asciilifeform: incidentally the folx who designed ada, read thompson's paper. and immediately acted. which is why in ada you get 'driving stick'-style control over the compiler, the order in which it puts down routines, and data structures during 'elaboration', and can leave bread crumbs for manual binary auditor (yes) to look for when he compares (yes) binaries built on different systems for same rocket.
asciilifeform: strictly so that they can be thus compared.
asciilifeform: the standards group stopped short of 'any compiler that shits out a bitstring different from the official one for a particular cpu, is nonconformant', however.
asciilifeform: imho -- ought to have stated this.
asciilifeform: (picture if two d00dz were sent into two separate dungeons , and promised impalement if they come out with c compilers that produce binaries for particular test program that differ EVEN IN ONE BIT. quite impossible for them to avoid the stake, because c is ~nonstandardized~, in the sense where the standard does NOT specify all cases)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform those are all fine examples of "break out of unary".
asciilifeform: unary?
mircea_popescu: ad-hoced it above. the thing which thomson describes, which is a very fundamental "specificly diddlable" process. "man in his cave" sort of thing.
phf: i think the point is that you can't design the process for an arbitraray chain of transformations
asciilifeform: phf: the basic theorem involved in breaking out of a thompsonism is specificity-of-diddling.
mircea_popescu: phf the rub is that you're stuck with infinity on one end. you really can't tell in advance what i'll want your compiler to do.
mircea_popescu: the hope that it'll always find a way to do what you want it to do in front of my boundless requests is essentially the root of government.
asciilifeform: take my old example, 'boobytrap an fpga.' elementarily you WILL need to somehow fit an ai in there, to create any serious problem for UNKNOWN bitstream
mircea_popescu: right.
asciilifeform: the problem with applying this principle to c compiler, is that c offers ~permanent~ fertile ground for booby
asciilifeform: say, remove array overflow check.
mircea_popescu: but this is transparent not opaque.
mircea_popescu: we can read asm wtf.
asciilifeform: or nudge a stack so it overflows if magic number present.
phf: i don't think it's a problem for an arbitrary chain. i was more thinking lizard hitler patches compiler to specifically fuck with rotor3 chain
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: nobody reads multiMB of asm.
mircea_popescu: phf and then keeps patching ? forever ? from behind the grave ?
asciilifeform: systems where 'rocket MUST launch and we WILL read asm' -- keep it in sane bounds of size.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno who was proposing we don't.
asciilifeform: well, if using ANY 'old world' soft -- gcc, emacs, linux kernel, bsd -- that's a 'won't'.
asciilifeform: because they add up to multi-MB of asm.
phf: mircea_popescu: if rotor4 comes out, must patch again. there's no inf on our side despite the process being potentially inf, because we're limited by time/energy
asciilifeform: ( idiot x86 cpu, means that ~any nontrivial program is multiMB of asm. and hence why i wrote http://www.loper-os.org/?p=256 . )
mircea_popescu: so someone is going to predict rotor4 ?
mircea_popescu: or else patch it after we've used ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can trivially patch gcc such that anything later built that uses any string ops whatsoever, with external inputs, is exploitable.
asciilifeform: and it'll be a 1 byte difference in 1 place.
mircea_popescu: because if "patch after used" then it's created a partition which i can use ; and if "predict" then the inf-in-being is rightthere.
asciilifeform: (this is an freshman problem)
mircea_popescu: and i won't be using it.
asciilifeform: you may be already using it, was the idea.
mircea_popescu: yes, but this idea doesn't scale the way phf wants it to scale.
phf: mircea_popescu: of course not predict. likewise no concept of AI is involved anywhere
mircea_popescu: yes, i might. but i don't ~have to~ already be using it.
mircea_popescu: phf it's either predict or expose itself. there's no third.
phf: i agree, but i never said anything in opposition
mircea_popescu: either i get to use my tool frist, in which case i can perceive a change ; or else i don't get to use my tool first, in which case -- prediction is necessary.
asciilifeform: 'perceive a change' how ?
mircea_popescu: well ok, so the understanding of the thompson bootstrap problem is that it's not an absolute bar to bootstrapping, but a possible pitfall ?
phf: if i have an open ssh port on my machine that i don't know about, then the attack can happen any time in between "rotor3" released "i decide to install rotor3""
asciilifeform: say it introduces an off-by-one 0.001% of the time.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform elementarily, i saw the item run pre-patched, now i see it run patched.
mircea_popescu: phf and if you don't keep the machine online, you don't.
mircea_popescu: again : unarisms are unarisms.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is conceivable that no one now living has ever used a 'pre-patch' gcc. that's the idea, that 'gcc' is not in fact defined by its src, but by the aggregate of 'the published src' + 'the extant sets of built gccs'
asciilifeform: and the latter is largely unexplored
mircea_popescu: and tcc idem ?
asciilifeform: tcc not so, but only if you bootstrap it by hand-compiling to grid paper and entering via toggles.
asciilifeform: (rather than by, as bellard did, compiling with gcc.)
mircea_popescu: obviously, "i choose to live in usg" means... you chose to live in usg. "but i had no other options". hurr.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the outlined plan was to read it, pare it down for the function contemplated, compile it with itself etc.
asciilifeform: but yes, you can elementarily 'exit the cave' by using grid paper, head compiler, toggles. in fact this was one of the first ( the first ?) threads with asciilifeform on mircea_popescu's www comment section
asciilifeform: anyone remember it ?
asciilifeform: the one where 'i can read an eprom without a comp. and write it without a comp. now where is your thompson bomb.'
asciilifeform: but mircea_popescu has it, there is a variety of ways to break out of a hypothetically thompsonized universe. but -- for some reason -- ~entirely 'not done'.
asciilifeform: 'it wouldn't do.' 'only a terrorist would.'
asciilifeform: etc
mircea_popescu: well sure, so it's not done.
asciilifeform: BUT the unfortunate bit is that there are ALSO a variety of ways to end up back ~in~.
asciilifeform: such as, by at any point building gcc
mircea_popescu: but we were discussing what we can do rather than what's done, or such was my understanding.
asciilifeform: and then anything with ~it~.
mircea_popescu: ~all my interest in this dispute is the imo important point that thompson issue & friends is no actual bar to republican computing.
asciilifeform: presently i suspect that mircea_popescu has a correct understanding of thompson.
asciilifeform: but oughta see that thompson is an absolute bar to hygienic computing ~with gcc~ or any other similarly complex compiler.
mircea_popescu: this i won't challenge.
asciilifeform: that was the only point of contention, from asciilifeform .
asciilifeform: really reduces to 'any system that doesn't fit in head is trivially thompsonized.'
asciilifeform: i also suspect that any system that can be thompsonized, eventually will be (given as it propagates, the transformation is permanent). but that is separate point.
mircea_popescu: the other vaguely relevant point is that it's probably cheaper to fix the c machine than to build the lisp machine.
asciilifeform: describe the 'fix'
mircea_popescu: but i don't have enough elements piled up to say what elements i need to say whether this is so or not.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "runs trb".
asciilifeform: one possible 'fix' is ada-shaped -- compiler makes up for the retardations of c machine, inserts array bounds checks, type checks, etc.
asciilifeform: the down side is obvious:
asciilifeform: the compiler is now gargantuan. and neither it, nor the binaries disasmed, 'fit in head.'
mircea_popescu: in any proper statement, all the eg trb foundation's work goes towards one fold of "fixing c machine" in this sense.
asciilifeform: mno, 0 of the work to date did anything whatsoever to 'fix c machine'
mircea_popescu: it is trying to fix the trb, which is a component of the c machine, defined as "runs trb"
asciilifeform: it was all, to date, 100% life support, strictly to forestall http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-14#1627008 .☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-03-14 17:34 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-14#1626921 << yes. there's absolutely no argument that bitcoin dying on the enemy's terms would be an unmitigated catastrophe. chernobyl pales in comparison, it'd be on the level of "wheel is useless anyway" wisdom of dropped-on-head amerindians, or "oh pretty, spinning wheels" greek steam engine. utterly catastrophic. which is why eg http://trilema.com/2013/mpoe-march-2013-statement/#selection
mircea_popescu: sure.
mircea_popescu: these are not mutually exclusive statements.
asciilifeform: they are wholly unrelated efforts.
mircea_popescu: i don't see they are distinct.
asciilifeform: not a single second of time spent reading or massaging shitoshi's liquishit, contributed anything whatsoever to the c machine problem.
mircea_popescu: how do you know this ?
asciilifeform: how do i know that it does not also propel the earth along its orbit.
asciilifeform: the presumption that i have to prove the negative here, is ludicrous.
mircea_popescu: well, if you are found with dead body and smoking gun, you'll have to prove the negative alright.
mircea_popescu: in any case : it's work done upon a portion of the c machine. what more is needed to qualify ?
asciilifeform: do what you will to trb, it is still written in idiot language that does not check bounds, on idiot iron that does not check bounds.
mircea_popescu: sure.
asciilifeform: masssaging of turd -- produces turd, not ferrocement.
asciilifeform: turds do not workharden.
mircea_popescu: code workhardens.
asciilifeform: it pointedly does not.
asciilifeform: that is the fundamental discovery of 25 years of c idiocy.
asciilifeform: any day of the week, thing can be silently and imperceptibly broken.
mircea_popescu: i suppsoe you define work differently from me.
asciilifeform: because the conceptual foundations are retarded.
asciilifeform: this in fact is a practical definition of 'turd' in our context : item that, massage it as you will, is still fundamentally broken by design.
mircea_popescu: that has nothin to do however.
mircea_popescu: at the very least things were learned about how trb is ~supposed to~ function, and this is sufficient to qualify it.
asciilifeform: and this 'fixes c machine' how ?
mircea_popescu: "c machine" defined as "item that runs trb" is thereby fixed through becoming more apparent than it previously was.
asciilifeform: ( this also ignores the -- screamingly evident -- fact of trb being ~algorithmically~ defective. as explored on several occasions here. )
mircea_popescu: and how did we find this out ?
asciilifeform: i can't speak for others,
asciilifeform: but i found out with pen and paper.
asciilifeform: by looking at the data structures.
mircea_popescu: work on massaging the protoypes is work towards the item prototyped, what's so unpalatable about this.
asciilifeform: 0. but it is imho odd to describe the process as 'fixes c machine'
mircea_popescu: why not ?
mircea_popescu: or i mean, why's it odd.
asciilifeform: 'c machine' has a specific meaning, refers to the type of cpu that traces descent to the transistor-impoverished 1970s, when bounds check was seen as unaffordable luxury.
mircea_popescu: not anymore.
mircea_popescu: c machine does have a specific meaning, and it is "item which runs trb."
mircea_popescu: it's slowly emerged into obviousness that pretending "bitcoin is software" makes in fact 0 sense, and is entirely borne of idiocy. bitcoin is not "userland". bitcoin is the whole thing.
asciilifeform: trb (the currently existing item) could quite conceivably run on entirely different type of machine, under emulation (smbx , for instance, shipped... believe -- a c compiler, in genera. along with fortran, ada..)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it ain't 'the software', either, it's a set of algos, they do not even take much paper to describe.
mircea_popescu: yes. definition of "lisp machine" ALSO IS "item which runs trb"
asciilifeform: ('nqb' for instance is about half of a zero-otherpeoplescode implementation of same.)
asciilifeform: this is not much of a definition, it encompasses more or less any comp that is large enough
asciilifeform: regardless of how built.
mircea_popescu: no. it encompasses any iotem that is a computer.
mircea_popescu: as opposed to items that are toys, or turds, or tonsils.
asciilifeform: not one that has 64k of addr space, say.
asciilifeform: at any rate this is a bizarre line of thought. trb (or rather, bitcoin, the existing network) has any kind of long term future ~strictly~ if it can be entirely separated from the cpp abortion.
asciilifeform: the drooling idiot's 'i will Define By Implementation!' horror.
mircea_popescu: i don't see how it'll seriously run on anything besides a c machine for the mid term.
asciilifeform: not speaking of machines here, i dun have a 'large comp that ain't a c machine' to even test with.
asciilifeform: but of the nature of the beast.
asciilifeform: it has to cease to be a cpp proggy.
asciilifeform: to become legitimately 'an algorithm', rather than 'this thing a particular moron shat out'
mircea_popescu: not sure how that's related, but by all means.
asciilifeform: it is related in that it makes 0 sense to include 'c' as part of its identity.
ben_vulpes: yeah, what business has steel in car anyways
ben_vulpes: make stirling engine of moon beams
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: titanium car would work quite well.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not trb's identity was being defined. the c machine's was.
mircea_popescu: as in made of tits ?
asciilifeform: i have plenty of 'c machines' right here that cannot run trb (on account of 'too small addr space' or 'too slow clock', take your pick.)
asciilifeform: it makes 0 sense to merge the categories.
asciilifeform: i'ma bbl, gotta change gask mask canister; and pet has been 'come to bedroom!111' for 2hrs nao..
trinque: you see where he keeps those canisters?
ben_vulpes: doesn't sound like much of a surprise
mircea_popescu: so how do they get refilled then ?
ben_vulpes: sounds like $pet had an eye on the depletion meter
trinque: mircea_popescu: clearly buttstrapping
ben_vulpes: in other pki nyooz: http://gcaptain.com/us-announces-selective-availability-gps-devices/
trinque: ben_vulpes: apr 1 ?
ben_vulpes: aw fuck
ben_vulpes: this is what i get for not shaking the rss reader unread on the second
ben_vulpes: shaking the rss reader *out unread
mircea_popescu: lol
ben_vulpes: so damn believeable though
ben_vulpes: fucking hate april fool's day
mircea_popescu: why, great day to propose marriage to long term fiance.
ben_vulpes: "hey babe, want to be my second wife?"