log
mircea_popescu: http://globaldatingdiaries.com/2014/05/15/disastrous-dating-in-buenos-aires-argentina-2008-edition/ << this is hysterical.
assbot: Disastrous Dating in Buenos Aires, Argentina: 2008 edition | Global Dating Diaries
mircea_popescu: us chick in a car with a stud that outruns the cops, she has something to bitch about.
mircea_popescu: bonus points for strategically covering behind purse pic.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23300 @ 0.0007494 = 17.461 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: so no lilo day huh.
asciilifeform: http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/d/a/dargot/_eres.jpg
asciilifeform: ^ 'heresy - it hurts.'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20650 @ 0.0007494 = 15.4751 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 930 @ 0.00075 = 0.6975 BTC [+]
decimation: http://www.zdnet.com/microsoft-reorgs-its-trustworthy-computing-group-cuts-some-staff-7000033878/ << microsoft seekyourity
assbot: Microsoft reorgs its Trustworthy Computing group; cuts some staff | ZDNet
decimation: the mind reels. one wonders who the patron of the said 'trustworthy computing group' would be... and why they are no longer calling the tunes?
asciilifeform: decimation: easy riddle. 'fritz chip' was finished, shipped, now ubiquitous. no more need for group.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you know the story with the guy hired to make the best church ever
mircea_popescu: then killed when done
asciilifeform: a la egyptians
asciilifeform: or the traditional 'they poked the architect's eyes out'
mircea_popescu: so i joined all other bitcoin channels. (from http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode&chat=bitcoin )
assbot: Bitcoin - Chat Rooms on IRC Network freenode - Bitcoin, Currencies - irc.netsplit.de
decimation: There is indeed a relationship between the Microsoft Trustworthy Computer Group and the Trusted Computing Group http://www.marketwired.com/press-release/trusted-computing-conference-announces-microsoft-trusted-computing-group-wave-systems-1824245.htm
assbot: The Trusted Computing Conference Announces Microsoft, the Trusted Computing Group and Wave Systems Corp. as Diamond Sponsors
mircea_popescu: every fucking thing is dead. an hour and 0 content except for btc-pricetalk which is 100% derpage overdrive
mircea_popescu: diamond eh
asciilifeform: every fucking thing is dead << i started out in perhaps 4 different ones, stayed here because alive.
decimation: Trusted computing group is indeed the author of the 'fritz chip' specs http://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/resources/tpm_main_specification
mircea_popescu: decimation if you're into humint, follow where the employees "let off" go.
mircea_popescu: roughly the same as following marker iodine through a body.
asciilifeform: who really believes they were let free into the world.
mircea_popescu: anyway, an easily overlooked point about bitcoin is that it's well proven we can make terrorist computers
mircea_popescu: should idiocy a la tcg actually arrive to critical mass
asciilifeform: since 'tutankhamon' solution was presumably not used - then stowed away elsewhere.
mircea_popescu: that threat alone is enough to prevent successful adoption.
decimation: The problem that usg has is that they would have to get china to buy into whatever 'secure computing' solution they want to push
asciilifeform: fritz chip carries on as a diversion only, not an honest effort. the folks in usg with remaining working neurons realized after 'clipper' that a plainly labelled bull's eye - is dumb.
asciilifeform: diffuse poison - smarter.
asciilifeform: analogous situation from history:
asciilifeform: in early nukes, there was no lock.
asciilifeform: when (americans - afaik, no one else) felt a desire for locks, the first such took the form of little 'safes', modules similar to car ignition boxes of the time.
asciilifeform: this was a threadbare solution, for obvious reasons - easy to spot where 'the goods' sit; know where to 'hotwire.'
asciilifeform: so then final lock was placed as a turd in the fissile core (in fusion nukes, fissile initiator, almost same)
mats_cd03: http://www.rense.com/general44/soros.htm >> jews
decimation: http://www.commoncriteriaportal.org/iccc/ICCC_arc/
asciilifeform: in such a way that the turd would interfere with proper operation unless fed the correct magic
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.0007494 = 9.5174 BTC [+]
mats_cd03: assbot dead?
asciilifeform: and, being where it is, would neither be apparent nor easily reached by an enemy.
mats_cd03: it just occurred to me how much of a fight btc is going to be in for with the usd over the next decade
decimation: asciilifeform: the analogous situation with computers is buried inside the silicon of course
mats_cd03: i mean, btc will win regardless, but... if buttstamp and co were able to dump btc with so few coins
mats_cd03: what can they do with 400k
decimation: mats_cd03: we are still in the minor leagues it's true
asciilifeform: decimation: right. why place 'fritz chip' as a distinct physical bugger, where it is both apparent and easily manipulated.
mats_cd03: at this juncture i think 30 BTCUSD is not infeasible
asciilifeform: why not 0.30
kakobrekla: wont go below 2.
asciilifeform: at 2 kakobrekla sells his airplane and buys the entire lot ?
kakobrekla: me - no. someone else - yes.
asciilifeform: point re: 0.30 etc is that if the 'tame' exchanges are sufficiently decoupled from physical reality, then there is no bottom.
mats_cd03: i for one would buy thousands of btc if it went to 0.3, and im sure many in this channel would too. it'd hasten the demise of some common enemies
asciilifeform: in that you won't be let through the door to buy up the cheapo coin
nubbins`: !s warrant canary
assbot: 5 results for 'warrant canary' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=warrant+canary
nubbins`: ah
kakobrekla: if you cant buy it, price is irrelevant
asciilifeform: correct
nubbins`: 0-249
decimation: if you guys really think that the exchanges are 'decoupled with reality' then you should buy while its cheap, right?
kakobrekla: so, it decouples itself from otc
asciilifeform: but an 'official' price will exist, if only for the consumption of the faux btc press
kakobrekla: like gox decoupled from stamp
mats_cd03: perhaps they believe that it will get cheaper still.
kakobrekla: was it stamp 500 and gox 100 or something like that?
asciilifeform: buy while its cheap << go try and buy.
mats_cd03: even less at one point no?
decimation: what is the usd price on -otc?
kakobrekla: afaik is still following the exchange rate
kakobrekla: i mean
kakobrekla: 'the exchange rate'
nubbins`: ^
nubbins`: bitstamp is the null argument ;D
mats_cd03: 22:12:52 <+asciilifeform> buy while its cheap << go try and buy. << not a problem for anyone thats not american, i suppose.
decimation: if you find a mob who is all derping the same thing, is it a conspiracy or organic knowledge discovery?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [SCRYPT] 120 @ 0.00690002 = 0.828 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: nubbins` yeah but yuropeans are shy.
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: if you use an american-style exchange (afaik, all public exchanges track participants' meatspace identities in some way) you haven't really escaped from anything.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 331 @ 0.0104 = 3.4424 BTC [-] {2}
nubbins`: all the canadian exchanges require id
mats_cd03: there's knowing my identity, though. and then there's being able to touch me.
kakobrekla: if you can wire to EU than you can get btc in otc
kakobrekla: for us idk
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: know - today, touch - tomorrow.
mats_cd03: its okay, i have faith the usg will mismanage itself into oblivion long before the dollar fails from due course
nubbins`: taste - thursday
mats_cd03: you dont have to wait til thursday nubbins` ;)
nubbins`: ;D
mats_cd03: you faggot.
asciilifeform: mats_cd03: usg is the only party you would like to keep from fully knowing how much you hold and what ?
nubbins`: hey now
mats_cd03: sorry, i'm rude
decimation: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2756256/Coroner-bitcoin-exchange-CEO-committed-suicide.html
assbot: American Bitcoin exchange CEO, 28, researched suicide methods before jumping from a Singapore highrise due to 'work and personal issues' | Daily Mail Online
mats_cd03: 'bitcoin CEO'
nubbins`: gross, daily mail
kakobrekla: did he rm wallet.dat ?
decimation: are we saying that the new york times is respectable now?
mats_cd03: asciilifeform: i guess not. but, that would be the least of my problems if i lived in, say, cape verde.
kakobrekla: o wait, its a she
nubbins`: the new what times?
mats_cd03: although islands are not particularly good for hiding from usg.
kakobrekla: due to 'work and personal issues' < buttcoins take too long to load, imma jump !
decimation: "On February 10, Radtke posted a link to an essay entitled 'The Psychological Price of Entrepreneurship' and commented obliquely that 'Everything has it's price'. In comments posted on the day her death was announced, her friend Krystal Choo, who founded the online travel firm ZipTrip, said that 'This exact post has been killing me."
asciilifeform: next year, after binge of dope in cia operative station: 'trial of cocaine baron takes bizarre turn after evidence - bag from his toilet tank - turns out to contain treatise on suicide methods. kilo of cocaine found in pocket of shitcoin ceo who jumped from tower.'
asciilifeform: so some fellow mixed up two parcels. happens.
nubbins`: decimation: related links: "15 smallest celebrity butts"
decimation: what is this 'price of entrepreneurship'? if your job sucks, leave? why jump out the window?
kakobrekla: that one personalized to you nubbins`
cazalla: i thought brock pierce knocked that chick off
nubbins`: lel
decimation: asciilifeform: in Singapore drug possession in sufficient quantity is punishable by death
decimation: no need to stage suicide
asciilifeform: decimation: folks can talk on the gallows.
asciilifeform: and in trial.
asciilifeform: wouldn't do.
asciilifeform: elementary - otherwise, why ever kill anyone, when you can frame them
decimation: I think it is more likely that some chinese mobsters got screwed
decimation: not that it really matters much to the deceased
asciilifeform: whoever bumped off the girl, the Sg gov happily covers for him.
mike_c: this is ancient news, yes?
asciilifeform: it being a tendril of the octopus in good standing (whatever appearances to the contrary) - why susprised.
asciilifeform: *surprised
decimation: yeah, the 'new news' is the coroner's report
asciilifeform: mike_c: the death - ancient news
mike_c: ah
decimation: which octopus is the question
mike_c: only 7 months for the coroner's report. efficient!
decimation: actually singapore is one of the most efficient governments in the world
asciilifeform: efficient - at what.
asciilifeform: the word 'efficient' alone is meaningless.
mike_c: efficient at examining dead bodies.
decimation: efficient at producing ambigous reports
nubbins`: efficient at don't chew gum
decimation: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/man-climbs-white-house-fence-races-toward-mansion-before-being-seized/2014/09/19/1c3a96aa-4065-11e4-b0ea-8141703bbf6f_story.html
assbot: Man climbs White House fence; races toward mansion before being seized - The Washington Post
decimation: another volunteer for the gulag
mats_cd03: a cry for help
decimation: hey asciilifeform, how do you 'type' russian? Do you use an X keyboard overlay?
asciilifeform: gtk input dialogue
asciilifeform: or, when quoting, ordinary paste.
decimation: ah interesting. I tried the 'german' overlay but I just found it really annoying ('tis a QWERTZ layout')
mats_cd03: https://blog.malwarebytes.org/malvertising-2/2014/09/large-malvertising-campaign-under-way-involving-doubleclick-and-zedo/
assbot: Large malvertising campaign under way involving DoubleClick and Zedo | Malwarebytes Unpacked
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 28247 @ 0.00003549 = 1.0025 BTC [-] {11}
decimation: another reason to use noscript I guess
asciilifeform: http://www.foia.cia.gov/sites/default/files/DOC_0006122432.pdf << censored official american 'intro' on lev theremin.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2804 @ 0.00072952 = 2.0456 BTC [-] {4}
peterl: question about bitbet: are fees booked as income when the bets are placed or when the bets are resolved?
mike_c: to put a different way, is all that brk money going out as divs this month? :)
peterl: yeah, that was what I was wondering?
peterl: but other bets have been heating up too
mike_c: monthly statements indicate it's when bets are resolved.
mike_c: http://trilema.com/2014/bitbet-sbbet-august-2014-statement/
assbot: BitBet (S.BBET) August 2014 Statement pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mike_c: says 442 BTC in bets, but 1.96 btc was income from bets resolved
peterl: aha, thanks
mircea_popescu: peterl when resolved.
mircea_popescu: so yes bitbet is sitting on something like 30 btc in unrealised fees that will come in during the next ~6 months
mircea_popescu: mats_cd03: assbot dead? << well the logs were working
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 11 @ 0.14222727 = 1.5645 BTC [-] {3}
mircea_popescu: mats_cd03:it just occurred to me how much of a fight btc is going to be in for with the usd over the next decade < duh :)
mircea_popescu: mats_cd03: i for one would buy thousands of btc if it went to 0.3, and im sure many in this channel would too. it'd hasten the demise of some common enemies << thousands, srsly ?
mircea_popescu: i'd simply buy it all.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla: like gox decoupled from stamp << pretty much
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 8 @ 0.141 = 1.128 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: decimation: if you find a mob who is all derping the same thing, is it a conspiracy or organic knowledge discovery? <<< it's the internet :D
peterl: you can't buy it all, the rest of us want a share too
mircea_popescu: jesus i missed all the fun
mircea_popescu: peterl kinda the point.
mircea_popescu: mats_cd03: its okay, i have faith the usg will mismanage itself into oblivion long before the dollar fails from due course << this is like hoping the heart will cease functioning long before the liver gives in. in reality, they're so interconnected their demise is a cvasi-simultaneous event willy-nilly.
mircea_popescu: ugs can survive a coupla weeks with a dead currency ; currency can survive about five minutes with a dead usg on whose faith and credit it is based.
mircea_popescu: assbot: American Bitcoin exchange CEO, 28, researched suicide methods before jumping from a Singapore highrise due to 'work and personal issues' | Daily Mail Online <<< they forgot to mention what he read. it was http://trilema.com/2010/viata-suge-cum-ne-omoram/
assbot: Viata suge, cum ne omoram ? pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mircea_popescu: nubbins`: efficient at don't chew gum << win.
decimation: dead usg << I find it amusing that folks like the20year think that owning some raw land is a defense against such cataclysms
decimation: because 'own' has been redefined to mean "the government gives you permission to do X"
mircea_popescu: well that depends.
mircea_popescu: in general the more liquid an asset is, the more likely requisitioned. land is hard to carry so often left with it's alleged owner.
mircea_popescu: what else ? a stash of gold is not "govt gives you permission" ? 300 bucks in a wallet ?
[]bot: Bet placed: 7.22 BTC for Yes on "Dolar Blue over 20 Argentine Pesos on or before Feast of the Immaculate Conception (Dec 8th)" http://bitbet.us/bet/1044/ Odds: 60(Y):40(N) by coin, 58(Y):42(N) by weight. Total bet: 12.43237601 BTC. Current weight: 92,710.
decimation: asciilifeform: I ended up buying http://www.ebay.com/itm/Symmetricom-BC635PCI-V2-OCXO-BC635PCIE-V2-Time-Freq-Processor-/141401396428
assbot: Symmetricom BC635PCI V2 OCXO BC635PCIE V2 Time Freq Processor | eBay
decimation: came new in box, sealed package. this version has a built-in DDS, probably cost well over $2000 new a few years ago
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 19885 @ 0.00003524 = 0.7007 BTC [-] {4}
decimation: heh more old news: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-03-05/microsoft-ceo-nadella-inherits-legacy-of-ballmer-board-division#p1 << "Nadella appointed onetime Democratic political operative Mark Penn to the just-invented post of strategy chief and shuffled other executives to resolve an unwieldy setup Ballmer had established in the marketing department." << USG ministry of computing
assbot: Microsofts Nadella Manages Legacy of Ballmer-Board Split - Businessweek
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 20000 @ 0.000035 = 0.7 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16552 @ 0.00074975 = 12.4099 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7248 @ 0.0007508 = 5.4418 BTC [+]
asciilifeform: currency can survive about five minutes with a dead usg << more complicated. reichsmark outlived reich by a few years (until occupying armies got their shit together)
asciilifeform: to continue the heart/liver analogy, the currency is like the many (most) organs which can operate on fermentation, and outlive what one normally thinks of as 'death' by hours or even days.
asciilifeform: in such scenario, usd minted - no; circulated - yes.
asciilifeform: (in the lack of immediate alternative.)
asciilifeform: (this gedankenexperiment, if not obvious, concerns usd kept around as physical coinage, rather than spreadshit figures.)
asciilifeform: obligatory:
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-02-2014#499414 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 13-02-2014 01:28:18; asciilifeform: "You should hold on to some cash, for purely didactic purposes. I remember my great-grandmother, who passed away when I was seven, and I remember playing with her little hoard of kerenki - ruble notes in ridiculously high yet worthless denominations that had been issued by the Russian Provisional Government, under the leadership of Prime Minister Alexander Kerensky... ... I was quite taken with the te
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15817 @ 0.00074921 = 11.8503 BTC [-]
punkman1: > ghey: how can I buy 30 million dollars in bitcoin? a casino operator is intrested in bitcoin payouts and needs to secure bitcoin.
xmj: hahaha
TheNewDeal: ill front it
TheNewDeal: I kid, I kid
punkman1: lots of retarded advice in otc for him
TheNewDeal: sell your body for btc!!
TheNewDeal: moriarty spam. sigh
punkman1: mmm pomegranate juice
punkman1: good stuff
TheNewDeal: ;;market buy 5000
gribble: Bitstamp | A market order to buy 5000 bitcoins right now would take 2263217.8941 USD and would take the last price up to 479.9700 USD, resulting in an average price of 452.6436 USD/BTC. | Data vintage: 0.0305 seconds
punkman1: ;;market buy 25000
gribble: Bitstamp | This order would exceed the size of the order book. You would buy 23659.909 bitcoins, for a total of 21442613.6279 USD and take the price to 99999.9900. | Data vintage: 31.3611 seconds
TheNewDeal: good luck getting a hold of that 30 million in coin
punkman1: TheNewDeal: why? not that much money really
punkman1: buy some in a dark pool or private deal, pour some money in the exchanges, watch your money grow
TheNewDeal: bitstamps orderbook contains 24000 coins
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 134 @ 0.00540999 = 0.7249 BTC [-]
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: decimation: easy riddle. 'fritz chip' was finished, shipped, now ubiquitous. no more need for group. << Not chip, but Fritz has a lot of history
BingoBoingo: Allegedly... Ken Dannager still mines coal
BingoBoingo: 02:12:51 asciilifeform: buy while its cheap << go try and buy.
BingoBoingo: << WHo watches the watchers?
punkman1: hey bb, capture averted?
BingoBoingo: punkman1: Unknown, was in the belly of the beast
BingoBoingo: 02:20:16 asciilifeform: next year, after binge of dope in cia operative station: 'trial of cocaine baron takes bizarre turn after evidence - bag from his toilet tank - turns out to contain treatise on suicide methods. kilo of cocaine found in pocket of shitcoin ceo who jumped from tower.'
BingoBoingo: ^When will people realize I am on strike?
BingoBoingo: It is not minimal, but maximal responsiblility that sets the work I will take.
BingoBoingo: I will admit missing the person who admits to allegedly being an enemy of mine while I hugged his greatest oppontent.
BingoBoingo: When it comes to the matter of wether I will ever plead to anything... Watch the actor playing Rearden in Atlas Shrugged part 2. Or play a game of chess with me.
BingoBoingo: The game of chess may be cleaner while offering the same point.
BingoBoingo: You will have to bring guns if you want to seize my ass.
BingoBoingo: Also Atlas Shrugged Part II might be the best adaption to film evar
BingoBoingo: Also I hugged a State Senator today.
BingoBoingo: punkman1: I could also still totally be captured before Monday still.
punkman1: BingoBoingo: oh they don't take weekends off?
BingoBoingo: punkman1: Not sure, hugged a state senator though
punkman1: BingoBoingo: and he's against capture I take it?
BingoBoingo: punkman1: That one is ignorant of the question at all, to make this shit more ridiculous
BingoBoingo: Still, I've got 3 sharp pikes if this goes to trial
punkman1: all that waiting, it'd kill me
BingoBoingo: Still, my firends shout out to @Bboingo on twitter, MP has my powerword somewhere on trilema
BingoBoingo: And I could give few fucks
BingoBoingo: Because I am a Man
BingoBoingo: If I am captured god Help the bubba assigned t break my spirit
BingoBoingo: Because I read MP, I know how to break a starfish
BingoBoingo: THe only option in my alleged disorderly conduct matter is they drop the charge
BingoBoingo: The cost to the leaches is much more than that to me, to an extent they won' know until they fuck themselvves
BingoBoingo: Directive10-289
BingoBoingo: Neither slave nor slave driver
BingoBoingo: I abide
punkman1: disorderly conduct, wouldn't that just require a donation? or do they take kickbacks from the local prison baron?
BingoBoingo: punkman1: It can be up to either money I don't have or a month of my time they WILL regret
BingoBoingo: !up Vexual
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 117 @ 0.01031722 = 1.2071 BTC [-] {8}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 165 @ 0.01000772 = 1.6513 BTC [-] {8}
BingoBoingo: To Pull! When you've got it... You're a retard...
BingoBoingo: !pull
cazalla: why not cave BingoBoingo?
BingoBoingo: cazalla: Cave on what?
BingoBoingo: Hypocrites or idiots?
cazalla: not that i really understand what is going on but sounds dragged out
BingoBoingo: I am Aaron Man Running through the forest through the ku klux klan
BingoBoingo: And seriously, to what can I cave?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6933 @ 0.00074921 = 5.1943 BTC [-]
cazalla: consider it a stupid question
BingoBoingo: Can I cave to less prison? No, The false Islamic State government must concede to amnesty.
BingoBoingo: Allegedgly the person who started the beef professed to be libertarian
BingoBoingo: But he can't be that and an officer in this county
BingoBoingo: Pretenders are going to pretend
Duffer1: wait your beef was with a cop?
BingoBoingo: Duffer1: No, an elected officer of the county, allegedly
Duffer1: ah
BingoBoingo: A cop would have been simpler
Duffer1: indeed, you'd be in jail :P
BingoBoingo: I am too white for that
BingoBoingo: Because 'Murica is racist
Duffer1: i dunno every cop i've ever met was an equal opportunity asshole
BingoBoingo: But still stupid, yes?
Duffer1: mostly
Duffer1: though it's hard to tell if it's that or the steroids
BingoBoingo: I don't steroid John Galt
Duffer1: i am uncertain what that means
BingoBoingo: Or Ray Rice
BingoBoingo: Or Adrian Peterson.'
Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMLnDuzgkjo
Vexual: ive met all sorts
BingoBoingo: cazalla I will cover stupid and cave when it covers the stupid that hurt me so more in the past
BingoBoingo: Which ought be never
Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydLcs4VrjZQ
Vexual: yarr
Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRxwMyOZX8
Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5HfOipwvts
Vexual: borked
Vexual: decimation, whats the clock for?
cazalla: bingoBoingo, sometimes when you win, you really lose, and sometimes when you lose, you really win, and sometimes when you win or lose, you actually tie, and sometimes when you tie, you actually win or lose.
Vexual: cazalle, it souds like youve met a magistrate before
cazalla: Vexual, a few times :P
Vexual: all you can do is say your piece
Vexual: but you better fucking make it count, coz it's recorded forever
cazalla: wasn't much i could say
cazalla: won't happen again, i'm contrite, gods honour
Vexual: theres always something you can say
cazalla: not when ya waiting for a mate
Vexual: even if its: yes im a total arseshole criminal
Vexual: well them: im waiting for a mate
Vexual: or: i don't know cazalla kills his rabbits
Vexual: *how
cazalla: ISIS mode
Vexual: *if
Vexual: *when
cazalla: you wanna know something funny Vexual
Vexual: yes
cazalla: nz doe had a litter other day right
Vexual: yes i do
cazalla: 13 kits
Vexual: kawaii
cazalla: now this rabbit has had about 60-70 kits in total, always white, just like nz, the guy i bought em off said they were pure
cazalla: low and behold, there is a nigger rabbit amongst this litter, black as the ace of spades
Vexual: red eyed?
Vexual: oh mumma
cazalla: still closed atm but red eye would be cool, would be demon like
cazalla: i'll show ya, one sec
Vexual: 1/70?
Vexual: wheres my genteics textbook
Duffer1: 60-70 total? o.0 what for you need all that rabbit?
cazalla: Vexual http://imgur.com/TpkwllJ
assbot: imgur: the simple image sharer
cazalla: anyway, maybe it's due to the buck or the doe, nfi, i'll keep it and breed it back with either parent and see what's what
Vexual: red eye black, you're minted
cazalla: Duffer1, that's over 18-24 months
Duffer1: that's still a lot of rabbit
Duffer1: snake food?
Vexual: no, red eye black is good juju
cazalla: no no, my food
cazalla: this lucky lil' niglet will be spared the pot though
Duffer1: i see
Vexual: must breed
cazalla: i will, i'll keep ya updated, would be easier if it's a female, don't need another buck
Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTvzzgk_jEY
Vexual: a good genetecist would put that buck on his aunties
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20300 @ 0.00074858 = 15.1962 BTC [-] {2}
Vexual: or something
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.147 = 0.882 BTC [+]
cazalla: i doubt the guy i bought em off fully knew their background anyway, there is always people flogging pure bred crap on gumtree that clearly is not
Vexual: little bit sicillian
Vexual: you might wanna eat it before the cute little fucker shakes you down
Vexual: how do you dispatch with them when thet are destined for dinner?
Vexual: isis stylee?
cazalla: break the neck, slit the throat
cazalla: it's over for them in seconds
Vexual: or a strong spring with some tool steel?
Vexual: nufff sais
Vexual: *nuff said
cazalla: first one i ever did, i fucked it up, adrenaline pumping and all that
punkman1: how long it take you to skin one?
cazalla: 4-5 minutes if that
Vexual: and what do you do with the skins?
cazalla: compost em
punkman1: no fur for the wife?
cazalla: it's a waste eh, been meaning to learn how to tan but yet to get around to it
cazalla: rabbit onesie would be pretty sweet for winter
Vexual: ive got an easy vex method
cazalla: doubles as snow camo
Vexual: 3 skin underwaer
cazalla: first one i did, i sat with it for about 15 minutes, patting it (big mistake), talking to it (big mistake)
Vexual: this is where wllld rabbit is an advantage
cazalla: so i kill it except i don't break it's neck right and it's jumping around with it's head bent to the side, squeeling like fuck
cazalla: and then i cut myself half a dozen times butchering it as the adrenaline still had me shaky
cazalla: funny, never had that issue with fish
Vexual: where are rabbits even from?
cazalla: Vexual, wild would be nice, i wouldn't mind going hunting but never looked into what it takes to get a gun licence here
Vexual: france?
cazalla: i dunno, i think the brits brought em here
Vexual: i dont think it would be right to shoot them in the hutch
cazalla: eh? i mean on shooting safari
Vexual: yea
Vexual: u ne'r had wild rabbit?
cazalla: nope
Vexual: i don't think ive ever eaten pet
cazalla: harsh
Vexual: well not pet rabbit
Vexual: id brain em with a spike if i did
Vexual: i do like a fat rabbit
cazalla: you can make a rabbit wringer
Vexual: id have to brain them
Vexual: or free range lead ending
Vexual: theyve got a thick neck on em
cazalla: not really, kinda where rabbit punch comes from
Vexual: youll have to show me one time
Vexual: i can do a chicken
cazalla: yeah sure, maybe i'll open my home as a restaurant where not only do you have to cook your own food like some places, you kill it too
cazalla: chicken and feathers seems a pita
Vexual: yeah
Duffer1: and loud
Duffer1: fresh eggs are pretty great though
Vexual: indeed
Vexual: best hangover cure
cazalla: ya fox got mine last year, getting some pullets soon though
Duffer1: sounds nice
Vexual: aren;t you moving cazalla?
cazalla: not for ages
Vexual: desmo diss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjqmsBikpw (asciilifeform)
Vexual: or some such
Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ovhw-E9gRfU
Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJuXKeiM4_0
Vexual: ;;seen mircea_popescue
gribble: I have not seen mircea_popescue.
Vexual: fuck you gribble
Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKli0y-Xr-Q
Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXWvKDSwvls
Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD0UfJZ6KhM
Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCkIYkaLBGs
Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Jv9fNPjgk
Vexual: such pif
Vexual: ;;seen pankake
gribble: I have not seen pankake.
Vexual: fuck your wnakholw then
Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3Jv9fNPjgk
Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJJV1nruUUA
mod6: %tslb
atcbot: Time Since Last ATC Block (#45395): 1 hour(s), 23 minutes
mod6: %tslb_btc
atcbot: Time Since Last BTC Block (#321676): 0 hour(s), 1 minutes
Vexual: stats
Vexual: ;;calc 321676-45395 (sounds so ckockney)
gribble: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
Vexual: are we gonna have a prolem gribble?
Vexual: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbhJ9c-pFoI
kakobrekla: omg the people. http://shrani.si/f/21/py/4dZQY5ID/manupulate.png
kakobrekla: bah, should be manulpulate.
kakobrekla: o wait
kakobrekla: it gets better
kakobrekla: http://shrani.si/f/d/c/4JIpOJly/manulpulate.png
kakobrekla: !s bitsurant
assbot: 0 results for 'bitsurant' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=bitsurant
kakobrekla: there is nao!
fluffypony: such scam
kakobrekla: http://www.bitsurant.com
assbot: BITSURANT Bitcoin Insurance
kakobrekla: lol!
Duffer1: i'm at a loss
Duffer1: 1 that this exists
Duffer1: 2 that someone signed up for it
Duffer1: wtf
bounce: you could be running an insurance company in cowrie shells, so why not one in bitcoins?
fluffypony: because cowrie shells aren't a scam
kakobrekla tempted to give them a gox response
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 54 @ 0.01060212 = 0.5725 BTC [+] {2}
bounce puts one and one together and starts cowriecoin. instant legit.
kakobrekla: http://shrani.si/f/h/Mx/2WIrp7WX/pictures.png
kakobrekla: in the spirit of user friendliness
punkman: http://i.imgur.com/35QZx6M.png
punkman: "do not trade like a cow"
punkman: http://i.imgur.com/YiselaQ.png
xmj: you know
xmj: that's the thing a futures exchange would say.
xmj: because it makes you lose money and they make a profit off that.
kakobrekla: <punkman> http://i.imgur.com/35QZx6M.png < trade like chicken?
kakobrekla: eh the other link
kakobrekla: s/link/line
mircea_popescu: meh apparently #b4056df6691f8dc72e56302ddad345d65fead3ead9299609a826e2344eb63aa4 can't be a channel name.
mircea_popescu: !up moriarty
moriarty burps
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: so apparently reddit libertarians have a freenode channel. ##austrians
moriarty: lol pseudo-libertarians more like
moriarty: i was grossly disappointed to say the least
moriarty: they're mostly minarchists
mircea_popescu: o ?
mircea_popescu: ;;google minarchist
gribble: Minarchism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchism>; Anarcho-capitalism and minarchism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism_and_minarchism>; The Mises Review: Anarchism/Minarchism: Is a Government Part of ...: <http://mises.org/misesreview_detail.aspx?control=340>
mircea_popescu: ;;google minarchist -wikipedia
gribble: The Mises Review: Anarchism/Minarchism: Is a Government Part of ...: <http://mises.org/misesreview_detail.aspx?control=340>; minarchist on Tumblr: <http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/minarchist>; Difference Between Minarchist and Anarchist? - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8P-Ez5rMRxM>
moriarty: well, half of them are minarchists, the other half are anarcho-capitalists
moriarty: so you could almost say they are the teaparty equivalents of libertarians
mircea_popescu: haha.
mircea_popescu: fwiw, i believe "free market" education to be plainly idiotic.
mircea_popescu: there's one language, it's purely conventional, this makes education purely arbitrary to begin with.
moriarty: what's your take on free market?
mircea_popescu: well i implement it wherever i can. seen the economy and sociology articles ?
moriarty: you believe educational flavour will change with linguistic medium?
moriarty: unfortunately not, link me?
mircea_popescu: well yes you know ? suppose zig ziglar sells a lot of books, and starts his own university, where he teaches kids words like "fail" don't exist.
mircea_popescu: you can't possibly allow change on the grounds of marketplace success like that.
mircea_popescu: it
mircea_popescu: s a fundamentally self defeating, socialist-driving approach.
xmj: hrm
xmj: moriarty: ancaps are boring
moriarty: xmj, it's an appealing ideology to be fair
mircea_popescu: moriarty > http://trilema.com/2014/a-complete-theory-of-sociology/ http://trilema.com/2014/a-complete-theory-of-economics/
assbot: A complete theory of sociology pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
assbot: A complete theory of economics pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
xmj: moriarty: they talk, and talk, and push out academic papers- --- and never do antyhing.
xmj: moriarty: trust me, i've been one for three years, i'd know.
xmj: moriarty: much better to read moldbug, be evil and call yourself royalist.
xmj: NRx :3
mircea_popescu: o look, xmj still derping around on the basis of his 3 year experience. hai babee, how goes.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, Adam Smith is a classic if not a little dated, like most liberal arts field, perhaps it would be more helpful to consider more recent counterarguments like those by Jared Diamond
moriarty: but very nice article nevertheless, i haven't read something interesting in awhile :)
mircea_popescu: bring it ?
bounce: IMNSHO there's no universal magic perfect government size, so it comes down to choice. what do we want our government to do? well, maybe we could start a market to find out.
moriarty: Jared Diamond tries to take a holistic look into the apparently serendipitous distribution of wealth among nations
mircea_popescu: bounce the original idea of "voting with feet" as implemented in the us is exactly that.
mircea_popescu: let the us not be a federation of states but a marketplace of states.
moriarty: in his famous book, Guns, Germs and Steel
moriarty: :)
mircea_popescu: moriarty yeah but i mean, you can construct his argument and bring it at me see what happens
bounce: doesn't appear to've held up to the ages though.
mircea_popescu: well no, which is why celebrating traitors a la lincoln as some sort of national heroes is so mind boggling.
moriarty: xmj, lol moldbug is a blogger, i take it?
mircea_popescu: sorta like having stalin's statue in ukraina.
mircea_popescu: moriarty yeah he's the guy who spent 2012 insisting bitcoin can't survive, then started a bitcoin kiler of his own which we kiled
xmj: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/
assbot: Unqualified Reservations
mircea_popescu: and is now doing i dunno what, but probably not much.
bounce: bit of a problem where all you get is package deals run by people who, because they run the show, suddenly have all sorts of entrenched interests and become vulnerable to all kinds and manners of coercion
xmj: that's moldbug
moriarty: xmj, i got routed to ##austrians from ##econometrics when someone made an observation that some of my comments leaned towards ancap tendencies, so i'm newer to the scene, although i've always found a blend of hayes/keynes economics to be most delightful
xmj: he's pioneered a good deal of the "reactosphere" -- neoreactionary blogosphere
mircea_popescu: bounce that bit seems contradictory. how can you coerce the entrenched ?
mircea_popescu: reddit's been trying to coerce me for ages, so what ?
bounce: because it goes both ways. fingers in pies everywhere, stuffed envelopes from everywhere
mircea_popescu: moriarty o you from chile ?
mircea_popescu: bounce so then not so entrenched ?
bounce: hm. probably a hairsplitting confusion here
moriarty: mircea_popescu, well, i'd try not to dilute his book into a one-liner, but essentially a blend of technological warfare i.e. guns, a serendipitous adaptability to germs via advances in medicine, and progress in transport hulls made out of steel, which arose incidentally from ideal farming conditions e.g. arable land which gave rise to a choice of livestock, was why the seemingly unequal
moriarty: distribution of wealth
moriarty: mircea_popescu, in short, first-mover advantage
moriarty: mircea_popescu, out of curiosity, your background, academically/work?
mircea_popescu: moriarty not the point to make a one liner, it's like chess. you construct his argument by asking me questions or w/e other discursive procedure you favour.
mircea_popescu: <moriarty> mircea_popescu, out of curiosity, your background, academically/work? > http://trilema.com/2014/a-complete-theory-of-economics/#comment-99232
assbot: A complete theory of economics pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, heh, well i made a fortune off bitcoin, but i never saw the point in holding a strong philosophical stance on the utility of cryptocurrencies
moriarty: xmj, thanks for the link
mircea_popescu: moriarty possibly because you didn't make a fortune large enough :)
moriarty: mircea_popescu, UK, sorry to disappoint you in not being able to introduce fine latinas
moriarty: :)
xmj: moriarty: just beware, neoreaction is still considered "evil"
xmj: parts of it are genuinely racist (they lablel themselves "human biodiversity" HBD)
moriarty: mircea_popescu, BBU as in Birkbeck?
mircea_popescu: ;;google babes-bolyiai university
gribble: UBB , Babes Bolyai University: <http://www.ubbcluj.ro/en/>; UBB , Universitatea Babes Bolyai: <http://www.ubbcluj.ro/>; Constantin Craciun profiles | LinkedIn: <http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dir/?first=Constantin&last=Craciun>
mircea_popescu: that thing
mircea_popescu: <moriarty> mircea_popescu, UK, sorry to disappoint you in not being able to introduce fine latinas << nah it was because i was just laughing my ass off at this "galt's gulch" disaster.
moriarty: xmj, neoreaction from first glance off the internet appears to be one of those anachronistic romanticism :)
moriarty: xmj, correct me if i'm wrong
mircea_popescu: wanted to lol with a ;ocal.
xmj: no that's the neo part
moriarty: mircea_popescu, lol my fortune was in seven figures, so large enough for me :P
xmj: we are going to do it better
assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0J14F6T.txt )
mircea_popescu: !b 1
xmj: moriarty: it's funny. i've seen the progression AnCap -> NRx happen a few times
xmj: and, some of the ideas particularly appeal. like, not having the social welfare state fund the procreation of stupid people, because... they're stupid.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, anyone gullible enough to believe the authenticity or originality of Ayn Rand deserves to live in Galt Gulch :P
moriarty: Ayn Rand is the philosophical equivalent (you would know this better than me), of Nassim Taleb of the statistical world
mircea_popescu: moriarty you're wioth the "it's the protocols of sion v2.0" point of view ?
mircea_popescu: i happen to be a taleb fan actually
moriarty: a popularist of sorts, amalgamating opinions of the past and attempting to take credit for it
xmj: nah
moriarty: there's nothing new in both their works, for the inclined
xmj: ayn rand did have a few cool things
mircea_popescu: yeah well, i don't particularly favour new stuff. what exactly is ever new.
moriarty: xmj, how much better are the neoreactionaries aiming for? :P
xmj: to infinity
xmj: and beyond!
moriarty: xmj, i am fully for stupid people not procreating, but i suppose that threatens the sanctity of humanity above the animal kingdom, we seem still unable to fully accept the depedestalisation of homo sapiens
xmj: well yeah, people put all sorts of things on pedestals
xmj: gods, women, mammon..
moriarty: mircea_popescu, well, i guess it was easier being a popular philosopher or statistician in the past, when one did not have to read countless landmark academic papers in order to keep up with the conversation, as one has to these days
mircea_popescu: i don't think the conversation is worth keeping up with.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, so i suppose we ought to thank the popularists for at least reminiscing some of the past arguments for the popular public to enjoy a flavour of, and perhaps bring some publicity to what would otherwise be dusty fields relegated to the backshelves of some university library
bounce: .oO( nimrod faltered )
moriarty: mircea_popescu, i guess i can see why from a philosophical sense, if one has inclinations towards the literal and the objective
bounce: well, regurgitating old ideas like they're your own smacks of intelectual dishonesty. do it without that and shed some detractors.
mircea_popescu: moriarty looky, if the conversation were worth following, then 30 years of the finance industry following it would show some benefit for it.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile we got... gauss copulae.
mircea_popescu: i can be well spared the "conversation" of pointless academics trying to publish or perish. not worth following.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, i've read works by Lacan and such, and i feel almost as if i have to delve into some metaphysical reality, and not take them at their analogies seriously, especially when they try to use precise notions from mathematics to attempt to build some sort of bridge to their reality
moriarty: but i'm an armchair philosopher so what do i know :)
xmj: bingo so am i
mircea_popescu: and the argument that taleb is "popularizing" brought by butthurt but otherwise worthless "statisticians" in their own estimation neatly mirrors the same criticism brought by "economists" in their own estimation re buffett.
xmj: moriarty: who stated taleb's black swan before him?
moriarty: plus i've been unduely influenced by the work of Sokal, Bricmont, i.e. Fashionable Nonsense
mircea_popescu: in point of fact, there exists no intellectualy respectable economist outside of buffett that lived in the 2nd part of the 20th century.
xmj: or, well, who gave it a name? likewise for antifragility
mircea_popescu: i suspect this is true to a lesser degree in statistics.
mircea_popescu: lacan is a total idiot, if he were a woman he'd be irigaray.
mircea_popescu: complexity is not a good predictor of quality. not in the ontos, not in the gnosis.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, actually, the conversations in finance are not as cohesive unfortunately as in other fields, so the flipside of that is today the popular strand of conversation happens to be a fork that the more seriously inclined would not fully agree with or find it a bit juvenile
mircea_popescu: fair enough.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, finance or economics, is closely linked to the political nuances of a country, so whenever one reads journals by personalities like Paul Krugman, nobelist though he may be, i always read it keeping in mind his political proclivities
moriarty: because of his governmental appointments etc
mircea_popescu: i can't read him, it's like going to a museum of children "artwork"
mircea_popescu: fucking boringly stupid.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, an example of a less biased conversation would be one by Mandelbrot
moriarty: mircea_popescu, http://www.amazon.com/The-Misbehavior-Markets-Financial-Turbulence/dp/0465043577
assbot: The Misbehavior of Markets: A Fractal View of Financial Turbulence: Benoit Mandelbrot, Richard L. Hudson: 9780465043576: Amazon.com: Books
moriarty: that is an excellent piece of work
xmj: Mandelbrot is brilliant, yes
xmj: also his book Fractals and Scaling in Finance
mircea_popescu: certainly, mandelbrot is not bad.
bounce: how about paul ormerod?
mircea_popescu: !up sardan_
sardan_: thx :)
mircea_popescu: you're welcome. who're you ?
sardan_: giotto :)
mircea_popescu: lolk
sardan_: I sent you an email by the way, not sure if you received it (regarding a domain)
bounce: mpoe ated it
sardan_: :(
sardan_: anyone would be interested in purchasing/doing something with the domain BitcoinCasino.com?
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: currency can survive about five minutes with a dead usg << more complicated. reichsmark outlived reich by a few years (until occupying armies got their shit together) << didn't roman coinage remain in some limited use into the middle ages because of lack of alternative?
bounce: ask in -otc
mircea_popescu: sardan_ what domain ?
sardan_: bitcoincasino.com
mircea_popescu: ah. the consensus here is that domains are worth about 10 bux,
mircea_popescu: and recently i have been giving them away for free, so.
sardan_: ok :)
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski not the same pressures. i meant usg specifically.
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: so the usians have alternatives? or...
mircea_popescu: nah, the reichmark wasn't nearly as integrated.
mircea_popescu: integration <-> stability.
pete_dushenski: a ok.
pete_dushenski: so then us scrip should have some life left in it
xmj: moriarty: do you consider yourself an ancap?
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu to the extent that it's highly integrated and there are few obvious alternatives
mircea_popescu: scrip will definitely outlive the usd.
pete_dushenski: not that the row will much care what happens in somalia
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: sorta the way roman coinage did, eh?
mircea_popescu: that was very unintegrated.
mircea_popescu: cause metallic, see ?
mircea_popescu: integration, for the record, is simply a measure of mutual dependence. think in terms of a couple. the more things they do together, te more integrated they are.
mircea_popescu: a metal coin is literally like a whore. 0 integration, she fucks random other men.
pete_dushenski: mm ok
pete_dushenski: whereas usd is now basically a digital token
mircea_popescu: pretty much entirely integrated. no policy in the us can be implemented without control of the currency.
mircea_popescu: hence the earlier discussion with decimation about how much the nist asked him to pay, and how it's basically "come with a note from stalin"
pete_dushenski: lol and cad is even worse, i think 4% paper vs. 11% for usd
mircea_popescu: paper is a minor nook anyway, in the grand scheme of things.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla here ?
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: well what other nooks are there?
pete_dushenski: other than btc
mircea_popescu: for instance it being metallic is a huge gulf. arguably pegging it to btc even huger.
mircea_popescu: disallowing sharing of financial information is a sizeable nook
mircea_popescu: (basically, making kyc illegal)
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] [PAID] 5.47394288 BTC to 1`149`988 shares, 476 satoshi per share
kakobrekla: si senor
mircea_popescu: basically, a government trending to totalitarism will correctly perceive as threats all protections from integration
mircea_popescu: this flows from the definition
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla this email, wtf is it ? i do not comprehend, what ?
kakobrekla: nfi i think he emailed to too now
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: right. total must be… total
kakobrekla: !up moriarty
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 1.27202039 BTC to 15`091 shares, 8429 satoshi per share
mircea_popescu: whatevers. i replied and that's that.
moriarty: bounce, what would you recommend from paul ormerod?
moriarty: xmj, well black swan for starters has its roots in the classical Humean dilemma :) (i've referenced him because i know mircea_popescu would like it)
moriarty: sardan_, how much are you selling bitcoincasino.com for?
mircea_popescu: ;;gettrust assbot moriarty
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user assbot to user moriarty: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 0 via 0 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=moriarty | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=moriarty | Rated since: never
mircea_popescu: ;;rate moriarty 1 some sort of libertarian or something.
gribble: Error: User doesn't exist in the Rating or GPG databases. User must be GPG-registered to receive ratings.
kakobrekla: >Kako, please forward idiots to #bitcoin-assets instead of my inbox. < fyi did not such thing.
mircea_popescu: moriarty how about you get in thre wot
kakobrekla: no*
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla i know, but it was for his benefit. give the man a chance to redeem himself.
sardan_: moriarty, Make me an offer :-)
moriarty: xmj, no, i don't tend to look at myself dichotomously, i'm an assembly of aspects from both sides of the political and socioeconomical spectrum, left and right as they conveniently classify it
kakobrekla: ah k.
moriarty: xmj, but there is an appeal to anarchist capitalism, once you look past the easy conclusion that capitalism requires some sort of legal framework in which to operate in, so not fully anarchist, but then looking past that, they do have interesting opinions
moriarty: mircea_popescu, i've fully liquidated my bitcoin position, so i guess no motivation for me to join WoT now
moriarty: ;;gettrust assbot mircea_popescu
gribble: Currently authenticated from hostmask mircea_popescu!~Mircea@pdpc/supporter/silver/mircea-popescu. Trust relationship from user assbot to user mircea_popescu: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 26 via 26 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=assbot&dest=mircea_popescu | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=mircea_popescu | Rated since: Fri Jul 22 11:04:26 2011
pete_dushenski: moriarty: you crazy
moriarty: mircea_popescu, i've done a sybil on localbitcoins though :) just so i don't get pinned down as the guy with shitloads of bitcoin
mircea_popescu: moriarty it allows you to get voice here.
moriarty: sardan_, an offer, $10 :-)
xmj: moriarty: here's the problem
sardan_: moriarty, To low :-)
xmj: moriarty: there will /always/ be demand for state and redistribution, because the lower 51% will want to loot the upper 49%
sardan_: I mean too low
xmj: it's logical -- as long as they can get away with it they'll do it, and use mob force.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, that would not be very meaningful these days considering how some no longer buy/sell bitcoin unfortunately
mircea_popescu: so what, stick to the fleshlight and egg custard crowd over on austrians ? i guess can do that, sure.
xmj: moriarty: and as much as the ancapists a la kinsella and molyneux would like to believe, they cannot overcome this with non-monopolist private security agencies
moriarty: xmj, sure, but demands of any kind play a subservient role to the sanctity of the constitution, and if ancaps were to form a nation, they could very well enshrine those principles in there
moriarty: xmj, the way i see it, you like a country's constitution, join it, no? then emigrate :)
mircea_popescu: enshrine my foot.
xmj: moriarty: ancap constitution... what?
xmj: moriarty: yes, that is how it works (exit vs voice), but most people are already in the land you'd like ancapistan to be
moriarty: xmj, i don't take it too literally, anything taken in its pure definition does not exist in reality, there are no socialist or capitalist society today
moriarty: it's always a blend
xmj: i take /that one/ binary
moriarty: xmj, a balance between welfare state and free markets, and how much of a blend depends partly on the origins of the country, a la its constitution, and the culture trickled top down from previous political establishments a la informal variant of the constitution
xmj: either anarcho-capitalism or socialism. social welfare states have come to be sooooo sooo sooo socialist that heck, Lenin would be proud.
moriarty: so china may be "capitalist" but its roots and the one-party system would ensure that their brand of capitalism would almost likely never converge to american capitalism
moriarty: it's hard to be free market, when the party dictates who lives and who doesn't :P
bounce: just to be clear, what do you understand to be the defining properties of a welfare state?
mircea_popescu: so i go to #electronics to see if either asciilifeform or diametric hang in there. they have a bot, i do !help, it says
mircea_popescu: <Gigs> Usage: !wire <AWG>, gives stats for copper wire of <AWG> size
mircea_popescu: i nearly fainted.
moriarty: bounce, any form of redistribution from the haves to the have-nots is welfare, from medical insurance to unemployment benefits
chetty: well these days its more like from the have nots to the haves
moriarty: mircea_popescu, like it or not, a country has got to stand up for the reason it was founded, otherwise, there is little point to be loyal or even nationalistic about it, when it can be hijacked philosophically
mircea_popescu: moriarty no country will stand up for a deal.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, i see countries as clubs, that if you do not like the constitution or culture, then you are welcome to join something more to your inclination
bounce: so, a government that takes in taxes but does not give handouts isn't a welfare state?
mircea_popescu: moriarty this is a nice theory anyone would subscribe to. both those who will and those who won't. after which, disaster of commons.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, of course this ideal is currently impeded by what i consider to be a gross infraction on one of the basic human rights, that is the freedom of movement across borders, one trivialised by border control and such
mircea_popescu: the only winning move being not to waste your own resources to defend their shit.
mircea_popescu: not currently. permanently. not by anything but simple game theory.
moriarty: bounce, well, in the most direct form, but you can always indirectly do welfare, free education for instance, is one such example
moriarty: bounce, food subsidies is another example
moriarty: bounce, fuel subsidies
moriarty: then of course we can get a little more creative and consider public transportation too, to be a form of welfare
mircea_popescu: o.O
mircea_popescu: now that's insane. why subsidize energy expenditure ?!
moriarty: public transportation is never a profitmaking venture
moriarty: mircea_popescu, to help the poverty stricken
mircea_popescu: fuck them ?
moriarty: mircea_popescu, inefficient, i know, but hey some countries do it
mircea_popescu: they can sit on a chair.
mircea_popescu: nol but the free education thing i can see. if you're going to teach everyone the same thing (language) might as well do it for free. your show, your tickets.
mircea_popescu: but energy ?! no. just... no way.
moriarty: well, free education if mandated, sure, but it exists along a free market system that elitises education in a freemium sense :)
moriarty: a la free online education via the MIT initiative, OCW, noble though it is, vis-a-vis the good ol' paid education you get face-to-face
mircea_popescu: actually free mandatory quoted education is imo the way to do education. 100% 4 years, if any kid fails it shoot him. 99.x% 8 years, if any kid fails he is not allowed to ever have sex with another. no matter what.
mircea_popescu: then 50% 12 years and 5 to 10% 16 years. and that's it.
bounce: you know what's going to happen: everyone passes.
mircea_popescu: you can not run for office unless in one of these two categories.
mircea_popescu: maybe. but if the kids can't read, shoot the teachers.
moriarty: bounce has a point even though mircea_popescu's intentions are noble
moriarty: it happened in the UK unfortunately
moriarty: we had a lofty target of 50% tertiary literacy rates
mircea_popescu: not target. maximum.
moriarty: and then a recent mass study conducted indicated social mobility did not happen despite more people than ever having university degrees
mircea_popescu: quota as in, no more than this may pass no matter what happens.
moriarty: i see
moriarty: that sounds like singapore then, a social experiment in of itself
bounce: the degrees dropped in difficulty AND value?
moriarty: bounce, well, not across the board
mircea_popescu: yeah well this socialistoid idiocy... "currently college ed people are upwards movbile let's give degrees to anyone wait that changes mobiliy ?!?!!?" is like, become a woman, they liove longer.
moriarty: bounce, but you had universities catering across the spectrum of students
moriarty: bounce, alongside funding opportunities
mircea_popescu: the observed property is based on not having been tampered with
moriarty: bounce, it is cheaper to go to some universities than others, geographically as well as prestige-wise
decimation: Vexual: The clock is going to drive various rf devices & data capture systems
moriarty: mircea_popescu, haha good point
bounce: bit of a fail that policy makers tend to forget that little detail
moriarty: mircea_popescu, singapore took your opinion to a slightly more extreme point, their university application form consists of a ranking of six majors, and the state then allocates a major to you based on a threshold that is demand-adjusted
moriarty: mircea_popescu, so if photography has low demand but high applicant rates, then most of them get rejected
mircea_popescu: sensible.
moriarty: yep, but leaves little room for individualism
mircea_popescu: kinda how romania/eastern europe worked too.
mircea_popescu: then 20 years later, romania dominates the internet.
moriarty: imagine, if you wrote down six majors you thought you wanted to do in order of preference, only to be given your last choice
mircea_popescu: in spte of being what, 0.3% of word pop
moriarty: that would be painful, or not since i'm looking at it from a western point of view :)
moriarty: i imagine singaporeans must be accustomed to not getting their way at anything
moriarty: and the government decides their whole lives for them
moriarty: in the UK, the same thing happens, but it is done more surreptiously so the pain is less obvious
moriarty: you are given six choices of universities for ideally the same major (you could even mix and match majors but let's take the simpler assumption)
moriarty: so the threshold is adjusted based on your choice, your funeral
mircea_popescu: moriarty it's not "the governemnt" any more than it's gravity.
mircea_popescu: you wanna jump higher ? train, bitch.
moriarty: if you take a highly subscribed course but you are not cream of the crop, then you are assigned a less serious university, and you may harbour fantasies of serendipity working in your favour come working world time, but that wouldn't logically happen
bounce: bureaucrazies are heavy but not gravity themselves
moriarty: mircea_popescu, lol
mircea_popescu: what, lol ?
mircea_popescu: in the 80s romania there used to be about 100 18yo girls a year hanging themselves for having sucked at tests.
mircea_popescu: seems a perfect way to run a country.
asciilifeform: japan - valhalla ?
asciilifeform: !up moriarty
moriarty: mircea_popescu, i guess in a way you could say singapore is being "kinder" by telling you upfront that if you take that course, your employment chances will be fucked, so let's help make this idiot-proof as possible by barring you from choosing that road
mircea_popescu: oyu're not barred. you simply don't qualify.
mircea_popescu: suck it and change.
mircea_popescu: any system that forces change upon the individual is going to win longterm
mircea_popescu: because that's the cheapest thing to change.
asciilifeform: actually - cheapest thing to change, assuming 'chose parents well' - is system.
mircea_popescu: nope.
asciilifeform: hence late-soviet era gold medals given to favourite sons.
mircea_popescu: systems can not exist but in a very narrow space of stable nodes.
moriarty: in singapore, there is no room for change though, there is no automatic pass up the high school ladder, if you fail or do poorly, you get streamlined to the lower education tier
mircea_popescu: whereas the space for individuals is immensely more dense.
mircea_popescu: so, the ilusion of having "changed" the system may be cheaply attained
mircea_popescu: but all you've done is upset a pendulum
moriarty: their entire education system is tiered, with forks occuring after junior school, after high school, and after pre-university
mircea_popescu: moriarty you ever read the gpg contracts article ?
moriarty: if you're not good enough, you get streamed to what essentially pigeonholes you to the blue-collar stream
moriarty: mircea_popescu, remind me?
mircea_popescu: moriarty http://trilema.com/2012/gpg-contracts/ <. the tl;dr being, don't change after you fucked up. change before.
assbot: GPG contracts pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mircea_popescu: nature doesn't come with a "you took that path and a lion ate you, would you like to retry yes/no/cancel"
moriarty: mircea_popescu, that's a good point, i like singapore's system too
bounce: we do a lot better than nature by allowing learning from mistakes and therefore retries
moriarty: although if one wants to be sappy about it, life does throw curveballs at some individuals more than others
moriarty: and the singaporean social experiment assumes implicitly that curveballs are totally within the individual's control
mircea_popescu: bounce hard retries offer no promise of learning from mistakes.
mircea_popescu: they instead allow mistakes to be carried forth
TheNewDeal: ;;seen TomServo
gribble: TomServo was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 2 days, 0 hours, 6 minutes, and 34 seconds ago: <TomServo> Shouldn't this supposed ETH dump be coming from: https://blockchain.info/charts/balance?address=36PrZ1KHYMpqSyAQXSG8VwbUiq2EogxLo2 ?
mircea_popescu: which is why hard amiga games in the 80s were a lot better than the crap today,
moriarty: in essence, there are negative externalities based on the draw of the hand, where some individuals never get tested on their fortitude in dealing with familial crises, and others do
mircea_popescu: and which is why a fundamentally idiotic game model (the platformer, the scroller, etc) were still loads of fun
moriarty: so the singaporean model discounts earlier on, individuals that come from more fractious backgrounds, by tiering them very early on
moriarty: without any ladder back up
mircea_popescu: moriarty no. it encourages backgrounds to not be fracturous
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can't have been the only boy who wanted a game machine that would physically damage you when you fuck up...
mircea_popescu: under punishment of marginalkising their fruits.
mircea_popescu: which is why all east european families were VERY stable
moriarty: mircea_popescu, principal-agency dilemma
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well i was more reflexive in my wishes.
mircea_popescu: moriarty not a dilemma in any sense.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, in short, the motivations of the parents are not entirely aligned with the children
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "i wish they kiled idiots so then they'd be real cheap and i could get them all"
TheNewDeal: ;;later tell TomServo has arrived. I can meet today (9/20) or tomorrow (9/21). Otherwise it's going to be a couple weeks
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: moriarty why is this a problem ?
moriarty: mircea_popescu, it does not affect the parent as negatively as the offspring, particularly if the parent is not emotionally vulnerable to its offspring :)
mircea_popescu: it does, yes.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, but you're right, it makes for an interesting society experiment
TheNewDeal: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 427.0, Best ask: 427.29, Bid-ask spread: 0.29000, Last trade: 427.29, 24 hour volume: 21262.91819002, 24 hour low: 390.0, 24 hour high: 431.11, 24 hour vwap: 408.789480514
mircea_popescu: it's just that the parent may not whine as audibly as the child. but you can't rule by whining
moriarty: mircea_popescu, cost of living is high in singapore, so those without the proper education tend to resort to less conducive means to make a living
moriarty: mircea_popescu, think social escorts, etc
mircea_popescu: perfect.
moriarty: haha :P
mircea_popescu: the problem with us noobs is that instead of sucking cock and being humble, they reddit.
mircea_popescu: what if that entire population were put in its place ?
mircea_popescu: suddenly the us dollar could compete with the singapore dollar.
asciilifeform: biodiesel ?
moriarty: there is truth to that
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "social escorts" is a much better euphemism,.
mircea_popescu: aka "beg someone much better than you to tolerate your presence"
moriarty: lol
moriarty: anyway, i think education is one of the nice ways the elites of society has deceived the havenots :) i think xmj earlier pointed out about how the 51% would overthrow the 49%
mircea_popescu: no, they wouldn't.
moriarty: but see, if you're elite, then you would have more conniving methods of undermining the other side of society
mircea_popescu: this is so much derpage reflecting the extremely narrow case of where a bunch of people worked with their muscles.
mircea_popescu: the intellect-muscle debate has nothing to do with the loser-winner debate
moriarty: because education alone is not the key to gainful employment, it helps if you have strong connections and networking
mircea_popescu: even if british society in the 1800s miscalculate dthe value of muscle.
xmj: hmh
mircea_popescu: but in point of fact, the 51% of which idiots like xmj are part would NEVER overcome the 49% which includes me.
xmj: moriarty: education is mostly a signal
moriarty: not that i'm griping about connections and such :P the way i see it, we inherit genes as we do connections
bounce: oh hey, ancient roman patronage practices. would fit the us' crumbling empire elan
mircea_popescu: for the simple reason that he's an idiot. what's he going to do ? whine ?
mircea_popescu: "ignore" me ?
xmj: signal of intelligence, as education is more costly for the less-intelligent
mircea_popescu: bounce quite.
moriarty: xmj, a signal that is second in importance to the signalling of connections
xmj: so for them it's an incentive to opt out earlier
moriarty: xmj, someone personally vouching for you is a far more powerful statement than an educational factory produced paper
bounce: too bad the us is really too prude for that, though
xmj: moriarty: certainly
xmj: moriarty: but do not underestimate the paper
moriarty: xmj, and that kind of connection comes inherited, not unlike genetic material
xmj: it's an ingenious way to signal ability
mircea_popescu: bounce or is it ?
bounce: japan still has those personal vouching things going on in contracts
xmj: moriarty: social class is inherited
moriarty: mircea_popescu, hehe
mircea_popescu: seems to me the black guys are already doing it, and that may explain their preeminence over the prude whites.
bounce: it's still violence over nipples there
xmj: moriarty: one of the reason that is, is because intelligence is heritable and people cluster around their intelligence
moriarty: mircea_popescu, i can see your proclivities towards the ancap notions
xmj: I <3 nipples.
mircea_popescu: they're not proclivities, i wrote the damned book :D
mircea_popescu: they just copied me badly.
decimation: much time and attention in the us is devoted to making sure every last miscreant gets at least 50 chances to do good
moriarty: xmj, i agree, intelligence, beauty, the things that ultimately lead us to do what we want to do through meaningful employment, have lots of meaningless sex with as many beautiful people as possible
moriarty: mircea_popescu, haha
xmj: heh
xmj: moriarty: really, sex drive is at the core of male achievement.
mircea_popescu: decimation too much.
bounce: throw in all the people put in pre-trial jail and the numbers drop quite a lot
moriarty: mircea_popescu, well that's why all politicians are liars, in order to be a man of the people, you have to ascribe to philosophies you don't truly believe in to win them over, just so you can fuck them over later on, to protect your class, your clan and family
xmj: the church did a good job at reinforcing the already existing institution of marriage
danielpbarron: most of the ancaps I encounter seem to lean more towards the socialist side than they'd like to admit -- what with all their "fairness for all" mantra, as if unrestrained capitalism won't deal a crushing blow to the dregs of society
mircea_popescu: anyone got an opinion on lesswrong.com ?
moriarty: xmj, females too
bounce: the problem there is essentially "random" justice. that's fairly bad for encouraging people to pick up better habits.
xmj: moriarty: marriage is a way of ensuring betas get laid, it's one of the more controversial claims
xmj: yes them too, sure.
xmj: moriarty: this is why societies embracing absolute nuclear families do better than societies that have extended families / clans -- inter-generational wealth transfers.
mircea_popescu: moriarty i have my doubts about that model, but anyway.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron generally people don't know what the things they claim to want imply.
mircea_popescu: because... thinking. is hard.
decimation: mircea_popescu: re: lesswrong they push that 'hard-ai' bullshit pretty hard
moriarty: xmj, from the beta's point of view, sure; from the elites running society, marriage is a way to preoccupy the have-nots so the haves can sow their wild oats around while the working class struggle to make themselves marriage-worthy in the meantime
decimation: also here's an amusing thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5242570
assbot: Lesswrong is a weird place. I can read an awesome, insightful article one moment... | Hacker News
moriarty: xmj, not a popular opinion either, but hey :)
moriarty: mircea_popescu, what model is this?
decimation: on the pain of offending the almighty future-ai-god, I claim that he won't exist
mircea_popescu: moriarty this.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, lesswrong is filled with people who have fallen between the cracks of society
xmj: moriarty: yeah that part is pretty brilliant
mircea_popescu: moriarty ahahha unlike what, bitcoin ?
xmj: moriarty: you know, bread 'n games
xmj: keep'm occupied.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, they have potential, but are limited by the ability to realise those potential, because of their minority status and not many people defending them really
mircea_popescu: well maybe they come to daddy.
mircea_popescu: <moriarty> xmj, from the beta's point of view, sure; from the elites running society, marriage is a way to preoccupy the have-nots so the haves can sow their wild oats around while the working class struggle to make themselves marriage-worthy in the meantime << so now you also gotta read http://trilema.com/2014/how-i-was-wrong-cuckolding-or-a-story-about-sigmas/
assbot: How I was wrong : Cuckolding, or a story about sigmas pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
mircea_popescu: this will never end!!1
moriarty: xmj, yeah, http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/2004/sep/19/features.magazine37 - sums up eloquently the human condition
assbot: The brothel creeper | From the Observer | The Observer
xmj: guardian from 2004?
xmj: that must be good that you still remember/care
mircea_popescu: and in other news, http://i.imgur.com/UkRnes7.jpg
moriarty: xmj, i didn't read it back in 2004, i found it recently when i was hyperlinking around :)
xmj: ok
moriarty: mircea_popescu, what is your take on marriage?
mircea_popescu: understood as what ?
xmj: moriarty: screwing >1000 hookers is pretty sad
xmj: screwing >1000 normal people without paying cash for it would be a considerable achievement
moriarty: mircea_popescu, i like your take
mircea_popescu: which one lol
moriarty: mircea_popescu, i've been told by a woman that women exist on a plane different to men
mircea_popescu: yaya
xmj: "The great thing about sex with whores is the excitement and variety." yeah, well, you could just travel and seduce...
moriarty: mircea_popescu, and in not so many words, it's easy to put yourselves in the shoes of a woman, if you imagine them to be first a man, take away reason, and accountability
mircea_popescu: that;s ludicrous.
moriarty: i know, but that's what they are :)
xmj: What I hate are meaningless and heartless one-night stands where you tell all sorts of lies to get into bed with a woman you don't care for.
moriarty: it's best not to try to understand them
xmj: I totally agree with this sentence.
xmj: moriarty: what, women or whores? :)
moriarty: i've long given up on that pursuit, so whenever a woman argues, i just empathise with her and agree with her
moriarty: lol xmj
xmj: i've become better at screening
xmj: but, y'know, law of attraction is a bitch.
mircea_popescu: dude get out, i understand women just fine.
moriarty: xmj, men are shallow by nature, our emotions do not run as deeply as women (unless we grew up on a heavy dose of sappy films)
mircea_popescu: it's not particularly hard, either, just as long as you comprehend that the "differnet plane" bs is bs, and that there's more variety between different women than between women and men.
xmj: "The problem is that the modern woman is a prostitute who doesn't deliver the goods. Teasers are never pleasers; they greedily accept presents to seal a contract and then break it."
xmj: well, if you're not man (or high value) enough to MAKE her deliver
decimation: !up moriarty
moriarty: xmj, that's quintessentially the female response to the common masculine argument of cockteasers; rephrasing it, it's not that i'm not putting out enough, you're just not good enough
mircea_popescu: moriarty seeing the value in a wot acct yet ? :D
xmj: that might be the female response
moriarty: mircea_popescu, lol i would need to trade bitcoin in order to get a wot acct, right?
xmj: that IS something i've empirically been able to validate
xmj: :)
mircea_popescu: no.
decimation: moriarty: no you just need to make a gpg key
moriarty: xmj, what i mean is this - females are very articulate in dealmaking, and there is almost no deal in which they conduct themselves, socially or otherwise, that would leave them worse off than before
mircea_popescu: moriarty how about slavegirls ?
moriarty: mircea_popescu, lol
mircea_popescu: what lol ?
moriarty: mircea_popescu, in the confines of a conventional western society today
moriarty: :P
mircea_popescu: yes.
decimation: slavery is all around you moriarty
xmj: there can be
xmj: never underestimate the willingness of women to stay in bad/unhealthy relationships
moriarty: xmj, because, pure and simple, they are not logical creatures
moriarty: they are bags of emotions
decimation: what is a council-house full of couch-sitters other than slaves of the state? with the state being a worthless master?
moriarty: they thrive on what thrills them
xmj: moriarty: you're not, either
mircea_popescu: moriarty http://trilema.com/2010/nsfw-mosu-cu-joarda/ << take them there. better off than before ?
assbot: NSFW - Mosu’ cu joarda pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
moriarty: xmj, drama is one way to get into a woman's pants
xmj: moriarty: you run on testosterone and adrenaline and dopamin and whatever.
moriarty: xmj, there is truth to that, but my motivation is more societal status too :)
moriarty: xmj, it elevates my status if i have arm candy
xmj: for yourself?
xmj: ofc
decimation: asciilifeform: some guy bought a 'salvaged Tesla' and did a teardown of the battery pack: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34934-Pics-Info-Inside-the-battery-pack
assbot: Pics/Info: Inside the battery pack
mircea_popescu: it's incredible how broken other irc channels seem to me. "where's the logs ?" "we don't have logs because reasons and we're primitive idiots" "so i guess i don't even need to ask about gribble or wot then huh."
mircea_popescu: so i sit there and it's like... eating grass.
mircea_popescu: savages.
moriarty: decimation, well, unfortunately as someone who is partial to the ancap way of looking at things, i don't identify with the reframing of couch-sitters as slaves of the state, i see them as enslaving the state though
bounce: you don't like grass? so you're not a cow then.
decimation: lol, does anyone ask them before they decide something?
mircea_popescu: bounce i guess not.
mircea_popescu: decimation of course ?
mircea_popescu: try rezoning a couch potato farm ?
mircea_popescu: try changing benefits ? try doing anything.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, you give a little to get a whole lot more :)
mircea_popescu: the whole theory is broken. there's no "other plane", and there's no "women" as a one thing.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, all i'm saying is, once you understand women to be a bag of emotions, rather than logical creatures, their motivations, what it takes to motivate them, becomes plain as day
xmj: couch-sitters? slaves to the states?
moriarty: mircea_popescu, buying them items in hopes to get in their pants would not be very successful, as xmj attested
xmj: nah man, that's not how it works, and it s not the reverse either
mircea_popescu: no. what becomes plain as day is how to interact with the few women nobody can be bothered with, and how to miss out on the value in the set.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, you have to appeal to their emotional side :) and the flip side of that is, you don't even have to spend a dime
xmj: those who want to sit in front of a TV all day long instead of doing something might just be better off that way.
mircea_popescu: this dovetails neatly with your expectation that you have to spend bitdimes to be in the wot.
mircea_popescu: that's not how wots work.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, the value in the set may be so economically, but socially? you attain more value by going for the unattainable
mircea_popescu: there is no "socially"
moriarty: mircea_popescu, it's the quintessential Veblen goods
moriarty: :)
mircea_popescu: mno.
moriarty: decimation, council houses are a response to voters clamouring for welfare
mircea_popescu: decimation nice pics
decimation: moriarty: and the state is more than happy to deliver, in exchange for not rioting
moriarty: it's one of the pernicious problems of mob rule, it converges to a state that pleases the majority, even if the minority in this case happens to be the ones that make more than half of the GDP and contribute tax-wise as well
decimation: which makes the state a terrible master
decimation: it doesn't take much creativity to imagine ways in which you could employ people such that they are neither a burden to civilized society nor have enough energy to riot
moriarty: decimation, but you've taken a ironic stance there, you can't be enslaved to the state and at the same time hold the state hostage with riot threats
moriarty: decimation, if you're happy with the status quo enough to not riot, then that's not enslavement of any sort except that of your own volition
moriarty: ;)
mircea_popescu: decimation it does. how ?
mircea_popescu: moriarty contradictory is not ironic!
xmj: decimation: hahahaha
moriarty: decimation, minimum wage or mandatory employment has the same effect
xmj: decimation: briiiilliant.
xmj: decimation: you know what you could do as well?
decimation: it's not a contradiction
xmj: you could feed them fast food, and keep them happy with cheap ish beer.
xmj: not too cheap, they shouldn't be allowed to save too much.
moriarty: decimation, it is an endless regression to inflation, sticky wages eventually adjusting themselves, and formerly poor people made wealthy through minimum income now poor again rendering minimum income ineffetual
decimation: a slave (unless chained to the wall) will always have some power to rebel
moriarty: decimation, long story short, it's back to square one after awhile
xmj: decimation: do you know "indentured servitude" ?
decimation: yeah, in the us we have h-1b visas
moriarty: decimation, and so mininum wage or mandated employment will never work except that politically it's wonderful
xmj: ahahah
xmj: H1B, biggest scam ever
moriarty: decimation, by the time, that happens, it's a different political party
moriarty: lol that's the ancap bit of me speaking perhaps
decimation: moriarty: it's true that such a scheme would be unworkable in mass democracy
moriarty: mircea_popescu, i was just being euphemistic :P
moriarty: mircea_popescu, i assume ironic humour, rather than any attempt to negate oneself ;)
decimation: and it's also true that in the modern west, the welfare class enslaves itself
mircea_popescu: decimation so how ?
moriarty: decimation, yep
mircea_popescu: how do you give idiots something to do that hides from reality the fact of their idiocy ?
mircea_popescu: this is a nonsensical object on par with the "foolproof" engineering item.
xmj: welfare class enslaves itself?
xmj: not that much
decimation: mircea_popescu: you can't, so you put it on display. your job: wash the sidewalk
xmj: there are actually a few traps setup by The Powers That Be
mircea_popescu: why would he be doing this ?
decimation: no work, no eat
mircea_popescu: does a shitty job of washing sidewalk.
moriarty: actually socioeconomic experiments are nothing more than alchemy waiting for sciences to solidify itself; in like sense, macro policies are the precursors to BCIs which would be a far more effective method of tailoring welfare to the individual without any of the leakages present today
decimation: mircea_popescu: then don't eat, if deemed shitty in the subjective opinion of the bureaucrat of the day
mircea_popescu: so you've rebuilt singapoer,
mircea_popescu: except they do it properly. social escort.
decimation: one could do worse I think
moriarty: xmj, the traps are easily detectable were it not for their inferior intellect
xmj: hum..
xmj: no, i mean, they're incentivized to stay down
moriarty: xmj, but i guess i shouldn't sound so condescending, when i am attempting some candor
xmj: because by the time you start earning income, you lose more than 100% to the state
moriarty: xmj, but you won't bite the bait if you had some modicum of intellect
xmj: in redistribution you lose and texes you pay
xmj: moriarty: i'm completely retarded, didn't you notice.
moriarty: xmj, if you can't fend yourself against the traps of the powers that be, how do you hope to avoid buying a lemon when faced with a second-hand car dealer
moriarty: xmj, what i'm saying is, it's impossible to legislate every aspect of society to make it as idiotproof as possible
xmj: moriarty: oh i know I can.
xmj: and don't underestimate street smarts
xmj: no one trusts used-car dealers
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lesswrong << i was de-facto banished there.
mircea_popescu: how and why ?
moriarty: xmj, so if you have the street smarts to not trust used-car dealers, i hope you do the same for the government or powers that be
moriarty: :)
xmj: well
decimation: all these models. here's some real economists discussing how inappicable almost all economic models (sets of assumptions) are to reality: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/09/paul_pfleiderer.html (it's a podcast with transcript mircea!)
assbot: " + soundfiledesc + "
xmj: hopefully
xmj: hopefully you also get cash income :3
decimation: asciilifeform: do you have links? would read
moriarty: decimation, that's a rather simplistic view
moriarty: decimation, it's nice if you're not a very curious individual
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-06-2014#711031 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 10-06-2014 02:07:49; asciilifeform: (lw is another reddit clone that makes hn, etc. look sane. inhabited by folks terrified of robo-apocalypse. i was drummed out of lw as a 'future genocidal criminal' for... considering resurrecting doug lenat's 'eurisko.')
moriarty: decimation, but if you are dissatisfied with such simple conclusion, read that Mandelbrot book :)
decimation: economists too can be made to wash windows
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lol they on to you huh
moriarty: xmj, hah
asciilifeform: story time.
asciilifeform: there was (and is) a fellow by the name of eliezer yudkowsky. (american, oddly enough.) ingenious demented storyteller.
moriarty: decimation, economic models are much like scientific models, or any models for that matter, they are inapplicable to reality without an overdose of simplifying assumptions to linearise what would otherwise be a higher dimensionality reality
asciilifeform: he used to be rather into artificial intelligence - but more from the standpoint of advocacy ('we' (TM) must build working super-intelligent machine, so it can save 'us' (TM)) - but that was pre-2001 or so
xmj: asciilifeform: yeah, lesswrong.com...
asciilifeform: then he had some sort of nervous break and a bit flipped in his head
asciilifeform: and he turned into...
asciilifeform: the equivalent of an anti-nuclear activist - but pre-Fermi.
xmj: uhm...what
xmj: his CFAR and MIRI are doing quite well, no?
moriarty: lesswrong.com typical profile is someone who has fallen between the cracks of society so typically someone without formal education, self-proclaimed didact, home-schooled, etc
asciilifeform: xmj: the other thing that happened - around the same time - was: he found a sponsor.
asciilifeform: who put him on a throne, had an 'organization' built
xmj: isn't that convenient.
asciilifeform: now mr. y is surrounded by flunkies, and, by some accounts, is fellated (literally) round the clock by harem
xmj: moriarty: you're forgetting high-iq math/physics/compsci crowd
moriarty: if i were feeling benevolent, i should actually sponsor some of them for formal education :) but then neuroscience has something to say about how intellect not developed before a certain age would have the door closed on them at some point
xmj: ahahaha
decimation: asciilifeform: who is his rich patron?
xmj: that'd interest me too
asciilifeform: in order to understand lw, must admit that mr y had talent. i, for instance, used to enjoy his expository writing. until realized that it is 100% recycled philosophy spiced up for 'reddit' crowd.
xmj: asciilifeform: what do you mean by pre-fermi anti-nuclear activist?
moriarty: i am into artificial intelligence
xmj: i've been in #lesswrong for months
moriarty: at least formally i have worked in the field of AI and have come across lesswrong in my past
moriarty: i am sincerely impressed by the attempts they have made without formal education
asciilifeform: attempts at what ?
moriarty: i honestly believe that under different circumstances, these individuals would have made real progress in society
moriarty: attempts at understanding AI
asciilifeform: !up moriarty
xmj: moriarty: formal education is just paper
asciilifeform: i'll be impressed when they build something - anything.
xmj: if you strive for knowledge you can learn /anything/
moriarty: xmj, sure, but let's not discount formal education also as the path to avoid mistakes made by saner individuals in the past
decimation: asciilifeform: oh he's one of Thiel's boys
moriarty: xmj, the informal route is filled with potential pitfalls to make the same mistakes
moriarty: i admire and despise Thiel all at once
xmj: you know, i'm all for ungraduating.
moriarty: i think it was great that PayPal has made that clan of people rich, a lot of good things have come out from the founders of PayPal
xmj: i've always been better at learning things on my own.
asciilifeform: good things << which ?
decimation: ultimately they are all patrons of usg and its idiotic currency meddling
moriarty: but Thiel's supposition that people should not bother with formal education and instead open up a company under the auspices of his seed funding is rather self-serving in my opinion
bounce: well, you know. formal education isn't always a panacea either. might just end up in a complete dead-end of "knowledge".
moriarty: in fact Theil's proposal would fall under xmj's concept of traps by powers that be :)
moriarty: Thiel even
bounce: you know, social sciences. contemporary economics. that sort of thing.
moriarty: xmj, that's commendable
decimation: asciilifeform: one day I hope to find a modern 'ai researcher' who admits to have tried programming in lisp
moriarty: xmj, in university you are supposed to learn on your own too
moriarty: xmj, but freenode is one of those serendipituous occurence that i think is essential to homeschooling
moriarty: xmj, without a forum of knowledgeable peers or esteemed academics, you would be hopelessly lost, making lots of mistakes, reading all the crap together with the good stuff, and taking longer to self-develop
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can readily see a us religious nut sponsor for that.
asciilifeform: decimation: you won't. because 'ai winter.' (and you also won't hear many people discuss how such 'winters' are the flip sides of 'summers', bacchanalia of grantsmanship and graft)
moriarty: the benefit of university is underrated, the constant feedback available ensures you minimise your time to develop your skillset sufficiently and deeply for profitable employment
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sponsor for what ?
bounce: AI cure for gayness?
decimation: asciilifeform: the universities that moriarty mentions being peopled with the same bureaucrats seeking grants
moriarty: decimation, heh the modern AI researcher uses any language at his disposal
moriarty: decimation, when i was studying and eventually doing research in AI, we got to use anything we like
asciilifeform: moriarty: 'got to' != 'used'
bounce: moriarty: missing the point though
moriarty: so i used things like Prolog, Haskell, Java, C, or even Matlab
decimation: moriarty: didn't you perceive this as a problem, given your previous point about mixing crap with the good?
asciilifeform: ^ not one of which is homoiconic.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the guy you mention.
moriarty: decimation, heh good point
asciilifeform: the fact that i - ever - have to actually stop and explain word 'homoiconic' is proof that 'getting to' use a lisp is not enough.
moriarty: decimation, unfortunately whenever money comes into the picture, it tilts the balance of power in the favour of the funder
moriarty: decimation, and those down the value chain, i.e. the grant writer
decimation: I don't distinguish much between the welfare recipient and the grant recipient
moriarty: decimation, and, then those who keep the university running, i.e. the undergraduates
decimation: the former being generally honest enough to admit to his scam
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform for shits and giggles i asked if anone knew him. no answer.
moriarty: decimation, and graduate researchers pretty much sit at the bottom of the food chain
moriarty: decimation, even below lab technicians
moriarty: they can pretty much make or break your work, no laughing matter
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'anyone' where?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 27214 @ 0.00003108 = 0.8458 BTC [-] {18}
moriarty: decimation, heh
moriarty: decimation, at least the latter is voluntary
moriarty: decimation, i never saw the point in taxation being mandatory
mircea_popescu: #lesswrong
moriarty: but that's just the ancap bit of me speaking
mircea_popescu: i just handed them their ass too, i suspect either a ban or a wambulance coming
moriarty: mircea_popescu, lol let me see
asciilifeform: http://lesswrong.com/user/asciilifeform/overview << me derping on their site back when had time/inclination
assbot: Overview for asciilifeform - Less Wrong
asciilifeform: i used to be rather into the idea of 'hard ai' before realized that we don't even know how to build a computer.
assbot: Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/32QCYZE.txt )
decimation: !b 1
moriarty: asciilifeform, you're forgiven
bounce: we don't?
moriarty: asciilifeform, everybody who ventures into AI informally makes that exact same mistake
moriarty: bounce, i think he means build a brain
decimation: asciilifeform: in the end it doesn't matter if the gasenwagen is driven by robot/ai or communist bureaucrats
asciilifeform: moriarty: except that i ventured formally.
moriarty: asciilifeform, really? interesting
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i guess ima publish, save myself the effort next time i feel inclined to explore teh ircworld.
moriarty: asciilifeform, and they didn't inform you that hard AI was a largely abandoned endeavour
xmj: moriarty: people say that google and peers are bad for you when you really want to learn things..
xmj: moriarty: ...people say ltos
moriarty: asciilifeform, it used to be an active area of investigation in the seventies
asciilifeform: moriarty: born - and died - with the lisp machine.
asciilifeform: not a coincidence.
moriarty: xmj, sure, i see your point
xmj: moriarty: "standing on the shoulders of giants"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform why not a coincidence ?
moriarty: xmj, yep exactly
xmj: that's how knowledge creation update transmission etc works.
xmj: has, does, will
moriarty: xmj, it helps to have a walking encyclopedia who you can tap into
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall your quip about heart and liver ?
mircea_popescu: yeah.
xmj: well you could also develop your memory
xmj: mnemonics is fun
mircea_popescu: but im asking, how are they integrated ?
moriarty: xmj, everybody is at various stages of knowledge, you gain help no matter who you ask along that spectrum, the key distinguishing feature though is rate of absorption
moriarty: xmj, or rate of dissemination rather
moriarty: xmj, you get to the point much quicker with someone more experienced, more knowledgeable
moriarty: xmj, and it's hard to get such people lurking on the internet :) not impossible, but rare
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the final doom of smbx corp. was sealed by 'ai winter.' in turn, the demise of the lm ensured that there would be no 'spring' - because carrying on the work in a non-homoiconic language is much like attempting algebra with roman digits.
bounce: they'd rather hear themselves pontificate?
xmj: you have no idea lol
asciilifeform: (^ above is a terrible oversimplification. lm was not simply about language, but the entire interface.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform seems a weak reason tbh. i mean, there are good lisp implementations today, or not ?
asciilifeform: nope.
mircea_popescu: wh ythe sbx machine specifically ?
moriarty: asciilifeform, where did you attend previously?
moriarty: i recognise some AI practitioners on here
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: to understand, it is necessary to see it. e.g., http://www.loper-os.org/?p=932
assbot: Loper OS » Kalman Reti, the Last Symbolics Developer, Speaks of Lisp Machines.
mircea_popescu: so the idea is, the tool required (os/stack/machine) has no industrial utility and without convincing the industry it needs ai to sponsor the thing, there's never going to be either ?
asciilifeform: moriarty: don't misunderstand, i was never a professional academic.
moriarty: asciilifeform, fair enough, still if you've formally undertaken AI as a major, that's something
moriarty: asciilifeform, which university?
asciilifeform: moriarty: no. went to uni, ordinary 'cs', but vomited from 'ai' courses.
moriarty: i see copumpkin on here, he's also into AI :)
moriarty: asciilifeform, nice
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: had industrial utility (one of largest customers - 'american express') - but - smbx spent $maxint on r&d, relied on usg to pay for this.
bounce: you're saying hard AI needs hardware with specific lisp support?
mircea_popescu: how much did they actually spend ?
decimation: (a common model for technical companies with any defense contracts)
mircea_popescu: bounce it is a strange argument on the face, but perhaps the idea is such a hard problem can only be conveniently breached at this angle. much like satellites aren't launched from tiera del fuego
moriarty: hah
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the death of smbx corp. is almost an entire field of scholarship..
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform topmost figure ? 1mn ? 1bn ?
asciilifeform: bn is close.
asciilifeform: one famous treatise on subject: http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/Symbolics.pdf
moriarty: what are the advantages of lisp over haskell for instance?
mircea_popescu: so about 1/7000 the recent involvement in the middle east ?
moriarty: with respect to AI
mircea_popescu: aww.
bounce: what's the cost of cooking up a chip or two these days?
asciilifeform: moriarty: it isn't merely about lisps.
[]bot: Bet created: "Alibaba shares above 115 before November 25th" http://bitbet.us/bet/1048/
moriarty: asciilifeform, so functional and logical languages, cool
asciilifeform: moriarty: rather, it is about the kind of interaction with the machine that it makes possible.
bounce recalls chuck moore cobbling up his own FORTH chips
asciilifeform: functional << nope. the non-homoiconic languages - do not make it possible.
moriarty: heh fair enough
moriarty: Prolog is homoiconic so i see your point
asciilifeform: not really, no.
moriarty: Haskell certainly lacks in that department though it makes up for it with purity, monads
asciilifeform: haskell is an american chumpatronic masterpiece.
bounce: what, type theory?
asciilifeform: yes.
asciilifeform: pseudo-mathematics, all of it.
moriarty: Prolog is not homoiconic?
moriarty: :)
asciilifeform: not s-expression - not homoiconic.
asciilifeform: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1390 << by popular demand of readers, explanation of what is the scam, and why.
assbot: Loper OS » Of Decaying Urbits.
asciilifeform: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/07/my-navrozov-moments.html << linked from above, mr mold's explanation (written presumably before the chumpatron re-swallowed him, this time - for good.)
assbot: Unqualified Reservations: My Navrozov moments
asciilifeform: bounce: Forth is an example of 'lisp' re-invented by an outsider. there is another example - 'refal'. (soviet)
asciilifeform: both of these are quite their own animals, and most users would make a face if you called it 'a lisp' - but they are as much 'a lisp' as newton and leibniz both had the 'calculus.'
moriarty: you can do s-expressions in Prolog, asciilifeform
asciilifeform: 'can' != SOP.
asciilifeform: (what's a lisp? my treatment of subject - http://www.loper-os.org/?p=405 )
assbot: Loper OS » The Simplest Lisp Machine
asciilifeform: !up moriarty
moriarty: asciilifeform, this is devolving into an advocacy debate :)
moriarty: i'm not for Prolog, so it doesn't matter to me
Guest17444: Hmmm
moriarty: i've used Lisp and like it as well
asciilifeform has been writing an entire blog on the subject, since '07, and doesn't see the need to continue pasting it here...
TheNewDeal: There we go
asciilifeform: moriarty - lisp on x86 pc is 'lisp' in much the same way 'holy roman empire' is the roman empire.
moriarty: asciilifeform, sure, Prolog works the same way too :)
asciilifeform: !up daybyter
moriarty: but don't let me get your feathers ruffled :P
moriarty: hehe
daybyter: Thanks!
moriarty: i quite enjoyed and loathed functional programming whether it was in Lisp/Prolog etc
moriarty: the simplicity of your code, balanced against the length of time it took you to write it
daybyter: Are you using lisp/prolog for trading stuff?
nubbins`: sweet, fresh OS X install and my keys survived the round trip
moriarty: and i must say that the beauty of functional languages is that you get to attain that rare accomplishment of writing a bug-free code in the first round
nubbins` breathes small sighof relief
moriarty: daybyter, yes i have tried doing so
moriarty: just for fun because i was bored out of my mind
daybyter: I tried drools.
daybyter: I think I could use jscheme, too.
moriarty: daybyter, unfortunately Lisp or Prolog is not high level enough for financial trading
moriarty: daybyter, so what we ended up doing was using proprietary languages that allow us to atomically describe market conditions with ease
asciilifeform: moriarty: in point of fact, any serious industrial use of a lisp proceeds by first creating just such a language for the system in question, and then programming in it.
daybyter: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=130966.0
assbot: Formal definition of a trading language
asciilifeform: moriarty: when you pay $1m for a 'q' license, etc. you are buying out of having to carry out this labour.
decimation: (he used the u so you would understand)
moriarty: asciilifeform, that makes perfect sense
moriarty: decimation, hah
moriarty: asciilifeform, to be fair it was somewhat of an adjustment coming from the open world of academia and studenthood into proprietary work
moriarty: asciilifeform, all the things one takes for granted, the support from community at large is non-existent in a corporate setting :) so what was trivial in popular languages had to be polished up, e.g. good documentation and example codes
asciilifeform: moriarty: relevant: http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/not-all-programmers-alike/#comment-3663
assbot: Not all programmers are alike: a language rant | Locklin on science
asciilifeform: (thread)
asciilifeform: moriarty: the 'support of the community' - that is, mainstream 'programmer culture' - is pure intellectual poison. the farther from it - the better.
moriarty: daybyter, interesting, i was thinking of perhaps less specific but at the same time more atomic than simple moving averages
daybyter: I actually never trading ema crossing, or so.
moriarty: daybyter, i'm thinking in terms of interest rates, manufacturing activity, GDP delta, CPI, retail sales, etc
moriarty: daybyter, and of course i assume a full-fledged basic mathematical suite to support doing whatever i want to the model
daybyter: seems, like you are far ahead...
daybyter: I'm working on simple arb stuff and such.
daybyter: I want to create a framework to build on.
asciilifeform always wonders, on first meeting a trading bot enthusiast, whether he considers basic game theory and contemplates counterpoint rape-bot answers to his strategies.
daybyter: http://i.imgur.com/kjl1VC2.png
asciilifeform: if 'buy cheap, sell dear' is state-of-the-art, then yes, anyone can write bot.
xmj: that's arbitrage to you
xmj: you can also sell dear, buy cheap if you're into shortselling :)
bounce: to some snazzy beasty boys tune
moriarty: asciilifeform, i see the points made there, make it high level enough that you don't need to get bogged down by the side-work in the midst of pursuing your main objectives
asciilifeform: xmj: more fun - ferret out simplistic bots and rape them.
moriarty: asciilifeform, and couldn't agree with it more :)
xmj: asciilifeform: meh, i prefer gaming bigger systems
moriarty: asciilifeform, a lot of the bugs arise typically not from the main objectives by the side-work in getting simple I/O right, etc, a lot of which can really be templated
asciilifeform: xmj: in this particular space, the 'bigger system' often consists of a horde of idiots operating small systems.
xmj: we call it 'society'
bounce: apropos earlier point, you need the idiots though. how else are you going to know you're not?
moriarty: lol bounce
asciilifeform: !s chumpatron
assbot: 116 results for 'chumpatron' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=chumpatron
moriarty: bounce, this calls for a good ol' http://xkcd.com/610/
assbot: xkcd: Sheeple
bounce: lose the smug arrogance and you know what to look for to improve yourself
asciilifeform: too often 'lose the smug arrogance' is when pig says to man 'you think you're too good to eat shit with us, you bugger'
asciilifeform: of course, this can end in several distinct ways.
asciilifeform: one being - this - http://imgur.com/cHWju2Y
assbot: Pigsty. - Imgur
bounce: hmno. you're mistaking your peers keeping you down with the humility needed to climb up by yourself
moriarty: heh asciilifeform brought up a good point on trading though
moriarty: it's all about grasping the mindset of the mainstream, and then harvesting that to your advantage
moriarty: if you have a good perception of what will be the populist stance, then you can make a trading move to optimise your profits in response
asciilifeform: moriarty: fundamentally broken model here though
moriarty: that's what i did when i tried to profit off bitcoin
moriarty: asciilifeform, how's that?
asciilifeform: there is no 'populist stance', there is a set of finite automata
asciilifeform: e.g., a crowd of simple 'visual basic' bots each playing arbitrage and programmed with a 'stop-loss' threshold
moriarty: well, emergence
moriarty: individual automatons act in ways that coherently reinforce into a distinct pattern
moriarty: think crowd behaviour as they exit a museum
moriarty: they may amble along seemingly individualistic paths but the feedback arising from interaction with other criss-crossing of paths result in a very predictable wave
moriarty: same it is with anything else, even in the markets
moriarty: you may act individually, but your response to feedback from the market constraints that individuality, and as a whole, the market acts very mechanistically, well, if you can pin it down of course
moriarty: the constraints of the market is at its most basic, everybody is driven by greed and fear
moriarty: without any training, the basic market participant buys at the high and sells at the low, despite being cognisant of the mantra to the contrary
asciilifeform: !up moriarty
moriarty: greed drives the buys at the highs
moriarty: fear drives the sells at the lows
moriarty: we know we shouldn't do it, but we do it anyway :) and if you can partition the market into the emotional plays, and the bot plays, you can then expect to tailor your response accordingly
moriarty: you can get some sort of clue based on the amount of money in the system, and the flow rate
moriarty: institutional flows are of magnitudes higher, for instance
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu, others : http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/not-all-programmers-alike/#comment-3728 << smbx for the impatient.
assbot: Not all programmers are alike: a language rant | Locklin on science
asciilifeform: (entire thread recommended)
moriarty: heh
moriarty: that's the fallacy of homeschooling
moriarty: whenever someone makes a comment like last programming language, it's a giveaway sign they have no formal education in CS
asciilifeform: (re: smbx) must say that some things absolutely must be experienced to be understood. i went to considerable lengths to actually obtain the machine before i dared to write about it at any great length.
moriarty: the very basics of comparative languages as one of the electives or course modules in CS will inform anyone that the history of language development was in response to advances in hardware, but at the same time, paradigms from ages before still come into play today at various points in the hardware spectrum, if no longer on your desktop, then at least on your mobile devices which are
moriarty: still constrained
moriarty: no one-size-fits-all solution, last language, pfft
moriarty: :P
bounce: so make a new fancy box that does lisp from the ground up.
moriarty: hah :)
asciilifeform: moriarty: all of these devices are quite the same from the standpoint of, e.g., 1970s hardware architect (in whose time there were actually multiple cpu paradigms in use)
moriarty: asciilifeform, i'm surprised Clojure is still popular
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/the-irc-world-is-a-big-but-very-flat-place/ << if anyone feels like arguing the ethics/moral question, i'm all ears.
assbot: The irc world is a big but very flat place. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu.
moriarty: for me, it died before it even became mainstream
mircea_popescu: this is where i
mircea_popescu: wil redirect anyone trying to do so in the future.
moriarty: asciilifeform, sure, and then you get the philosophical stances behind strong vs weak typing, how many passes would you like your compilation to occur, how about parallelism for that matter, etc
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: It’s a one time universal library card << yes, yes it is.
asciilifeform plugs in 'read all books in the world for free' machine to recharge.
asciilifeform: moriarty: in point of fact, given correct hardware design ('dataflow' machine) neither compilers nor 'parallelism' as conventionally understood - are necessary concepts at all.
mircea_popescu: <moriarty> asciilifeform, to be fair it was somewhat of an adjustment coming from the open world of academia and studenthood into proprietary work << that'd explain why you so drastically overestimate the "conversation" going on between empty barrels rolling downhill.
mircea_popescu: aka academics.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, lol
asciilifeform: academic used to be an actual animal, extinct around same time as 'passenger pigeon'
asciilifeform: possibly a few survivors (in soviet captivity) but that was it.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, yeah i don't care too much for academia, when i've realised the amount of crap coming from most institutions
mircea_popescu: i suspect the azns may have some extant
asciilifeform: confucian version is a capon.
asciilifeform: animal with glands cut out - not the same.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, it doesn't help that the metrics of a good academic is the number of publications, one that seems to be robust in the face of peer review, but take a peek behind the curtain only to unveil the editorial committee having ties to the same university, sigh
mircea_popescu: bounce: apropos earlier point, you need the idiots though. how else are you going to know you're not? << this is such nonsense. why would you care ?
mircea_popescu: moriarty it's a problem of dynamic equilibrium. peer review worked before weight was put on it.
mircea_popescu: the average idiot tasked with "making policy" and "framework" for absolutely no reason doesn't get this,
mircea_popescu: proceeds to act as if the static image he perceived, more or less blurry, is made out of diamond.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not the same, yes. alive, also yes.
mircea_popescu: recall your argument re the statist agriculture endgame ?
asciilifeform: sure
mircea_popescu: the chinese got there, but with thinking. their thinkers can't reproduce w/o the state. it proved ruinous but it is not yet abandoned.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2014#761526 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2014 03:41:36; asciilifeform: even ancient china, apparently, had 'cram schools.' (see miyazaki, 'china's examination hell' - neat little monograph on the subject)
asciilifeform: ^ great little book
asciilifeform: chinese system did then - and afaik, still does - select, with mind-boggling efficiency, for the uncreative 'human computer' type.
moriarty: agreed, mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, it doesn't reproduce :)
chetty: well in china if you are not the robot type you jump out the window, not reproduce
moriarty: peer review would work if it was more well-thought out like a jury system
moriarty: but i guess once a system is put in place, resistance would act against any attempts to better the status quo
mircea_popescu: moriarty it would work as a wot system, and as that only.
mircea_popescu: and resistance will be washed away on the simple grounds that well... fiat world is going to africa anyway.
moriarty: heh
moriarty: africa is busy trying to make the banks more accessible to the citizen on the street
moriarty: giving away of free bank accounts, mobile telebanking etc
asciilifeform: moriarty: bezzle retrofit. snore.
chetty remembers when US banks gave prizes for opening accounts
asciilifeform: chetty: it's in fashion agai.
asciilifeform: n
jurov: http://lesswrong.com/lw/10g/lets_reimplement_eurisko/ lol asciilifeform this is a gem
assbot: Let's reimplement EURISKO! - Less Wrong
moriarty: in our attempt to fathom why africa has such a different development trail, we have come up with some interesting cause models, from the bias introduced by the Mercator projection, to the irrelevancy of subdividing world population based on continental shelves
jurov: Comment author: Eliezer_Yudkowsky This is a road that does not lead to Friendly AI, only to AGI. I doubt this has anything to do with Lenat's motives - but I'm glad the source code isn't published and I don't think you'd be doing a service to the human species by trying to reimplement it.
jurov: they banned you cauz of this? huehuehue
mircea_popescu: moriarty there's nothing to fathom. africa is the craddle of civilisation. better people leave, so they left.
xmj: what
xmj: moriarty: where'd you get that one from
mircea_popescu: what's left is the multi-millenial selected scum of humanity.
asciilifeform: jurov: not formally banned, no. but 'persona non grata'
penguirker: New blog post: http://trilema.com/2014/the-irc-world-is-a-big-but-very-flat-place/
asciilifeform actually FOIA'd all the available lenat material and still has thick binder of mildly interesting goodies
moriarty: xmj, get what from?
moriarty: xmj, oh, the cause models
xmj: 'in our attempt..' was a quote right?
moriarty: xmj, no, i wrote that
moriarty: xmj, some have posited that the reason why Africa received much less development is because of the way our map projections undermine the true size of Africa
xmj facepalms
mircea_popescu: possibly one of the more stupid things to come out of academia.
xmj: damn white privilege putting maps out in projections that disfavor blacks
asciilifeform: jurov: 'friendly' means something very particular to these folks. it means, developed under the dictatorial control of mr. y and his clique of fellators, in accordance with various 'rules' stated in his (often contradictory) blatherings.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so basically they aspire to b-a-hood ?
moriarty: lol xmj
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: approximately.
asciilifeform: !up moriarty
mircea_popescu: such a crime.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: except that they subscribe to every dogma of present-day usg (incl. 'climate science', 'equality', 'democracy') and so maintain various pretenses.
mircea_popescu: well, i didn't mean b-a-hood in the "it's sensible and it works" sense, i mearly meant it in the "rule the wrold" sense.
xmj: moriarty: now comes your neoreactionary and inquires "if western europeans built such beautiful institutions such as states that actually hold together over centuries, industries, absolute nuclear family that favors outbreeding, and an army that could literally dominate the entire world..."
xmj: moriarty: "why didn't they?"
asciilifeform: in that sense - yes. but with the usg-like mask of 'we will neuter you for your own good'
mircea_popescu: "ETA: How concerned should we be that DARPA is going full steam ahead for strong AI? Perhaps not very much, given the failure of at least two of their projects along these lines"
moriarty: xmj, lol
mircea_popescu: heh. full steam ? hardly.
xmj: moriarty: you cannot receive development, you don't deserve development, you develop and then you've earned it.
mircea_popescu: hey, he has a point for once,.
xmj: moriarty: i wanted to look up the map of the neoreactionary blogosphere for you, sec
xmj: moriarty: (not themap but interesting_ http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/12/1178414/-Racism-has-a-new-name-HBD
assbot: Racism has a new name: HBD
asciilifeform: the sheer density of epicycles the lw types lay on and on, to keep various dogma ('equality', etc) going - is something to behold.
xmj: equality and equalitarianism must die.
mircea_popescu: lw ?
asciilifeform: 'less-wrong'
mircea_popescu: ah.
xmj: moriarty: http://akarlin.com/2013/04/mapping-the-dark-enlightenment/
assbot: Mapping The Dark Enlightenment
asciilifeform used to read nearly all of these ^ people - today, none.
asciilifeform: because - bored.
moriarty: xmj, lol "thinking housewife"
moriarty: that made me chuckle
decimation: asciilifeform: did you post those lenat papers somewhere? I have a reasonably fast digitizer if you lack
asciilifeform: decimation: may have posted, but i forget where and when
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's agi supposed to be again ?
xmj: there's lots of good memes
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'artificial general intelligence' in their parlance.
mircea_popescu: sooo... ?
mircea_popescu: o, that's bad because it could mp them out of existence ?
xmj: http://habitableworlds.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/darkenlightenment2.png
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they have an elaborate narrative where 'intelligence' can take on the role of uncontrolled fissile chain reaction (of the kind that was thought to be possible pre-1945)
xmj: hrm, still not the right one
xmj: i'm missing vdare on this picture
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform seems pretty banal. what else would it do.
xmj: http://www.propertarianism.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/darkenlightenment1.png << there we go.
mircea_popescu: the rich get richer ; the smart get smarter ** 2;
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if you were to listen to mr. y, mis-programmed 'agi' is likely to, e.g., disassemble the known universe into constituent atoms to build a gigantic live mendeleev table. because it likes to sort things. or the like...
moriarty: heh
mircea_popescu: now that's nonsense.
moriarty: Yudkowsky is reason enough why formal education makes all the difference in the world
mircea_popescu: not likely, but if it decided to... who is yudjowsky to say no.
xmj: how so?
mircea_popescu: kinda like the position of the girl being propositioned. if hte guy is good enough, not her place to have an opinion, not really.
xmj: his HPMOR series is awesome
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: well, he'd like to have a say in whether anyone gets to research.
xmj: as to the rest, no idea
mircea_popescu: lol, sounds like a winner.
asciilifeform: by alliance with usg, on one front, and subterfuge / 'kool aid dosing' subversion of likely participants - on other front.
decimation: yeah I guess there's this fantasy that he can personally steer research toward non-angry-ai-god ai
moriarty: did he watch too much AI doomsday movies?
asciilifeform: 'lesswrong' would be a harmless heathen pit if not for the inescapable fact that it is a tarpit for a good number of otherwise intelligent folks
moriarty: maybe i should do some good with my bitcoin winnings, and put some of those intelligent folks through school
asciilifeform: example of mr y and his thought process - http://lesswrong.com/lw/y3/value_is_fragile
assbot: Value is Fragile - Less Wrong
asciilifeform: there's ~1000+ of these, i won't link to them all, not everyone is a zoologist of crackpots
decimation: I suspect few recognize the irony of turning away from traditional worship of Jahweh to worship some hobo
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> 'lesswrong' would be a harmless heathen pit if not for the inescapable fact that it is a tarpit for a good number of otherwise intelligent folks << this is a major problem in search for a solution.
mircea_popescu: there's so many various different examples of it...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lw was itself, for a time, a 'solution' to reddit and hnews
asciilifeform: (mass exodus)
decimation: in the middle ages, the local barons would think of themselves as personally responsible to nurture the talent of the local intelligent young boys
mircea_popescu: o hey, trilema is not on the "dark enlightenment" map w/e that is. i guess im cool like that!
mircea_popescu: decimation orly ?
asciilifeform: decimation: ^ the only organized approach known to work
asciilifeform: except not middle ages, but far later
mircea_popescu: do you mean like 5 people in the renaiisant italy or what.
decimation: "Gauss's intellectual abilities attracted the attention of the Duke of Brunswick,[2] who sent him to the Collegium Carolinum (now Braunschweig University of Technology), which he attended from 1792 to 1795, and to the University of Göttingen from 1795 to 1798. "
decimation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Friedrich_Gauss
assbot: Carl Friedrich Gauss - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
mircea_popescu: decimation when do you think the middle ages are ?!
mircea_popescu: traditionally it's the fall of rome to the discovery of america.
moriarty: asciilifeform, there is some truth to that article
decimation: heh anything before 1950
mircea_popescu: lol ok.
mircea_popescu: you'll confuse people who study history, it's a term of art
decimation: I guess 'middle ages' was poorly worded
xmj: huh
decimation: I should have said "post Renaissance"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the man is, approximately, usa and colonies.
asciilifeform: *map
mircea_popescu: greeks, roman republic, roman empire, middle ages, renaissance, industrial revolution, modernity, post modernity
asciilifeform: if you made actual map - i dare say most of it would be painted soviet, chinese, hell knows who else
xmj: decimation: see, democracy doesn't work that way.
decimation: bully for democracy
asciilifeform: perhaps when the lid is taken off, e.g., india - we find thought there
mircea_popescu: ~3000, ~300, 0, 1500, 1700, 1850, 1950
xmj: with democracy you (as temporary ruler) have no incentive to make your young boys/girls look good.
Apocalyptic: the only incentive is to get reelected yes
decimation: mircea_popescu: sounds legit, I'll try to adopt that nomenclature
asciilifeform: xmj: overwhelming incentive to back-door 'merit' systems to promote blood relations:
mircea_popescu: decimation cheap and easy hack.
asciilifeform: !s merit wash
assbot: 9 results for 'merit wash' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=merit+wash
decimation: yeah in 'modern' times the common solution was to send the kids off to 'elite' boarding schools and so forth
moriarty: so is anyone working here by any chance?
moriarty: or are everyone here avid bitcoin miners/traders full-time?
decimation: I work, to eat
moriarty: heh :)
asciilifeform works several jobs
decimation: I'm only a zek
mircea_popescu: moriarty what do you mean working here.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, self-employed, entrepreneur, corporate cog, etc
mircea_popescu: oh.
mircea_popescu: decimation really it started during the renaissance, as an attempt to bite the fruit of life fully.
asciilifeform: usually the question presumes certain customary rituals
moriarty: mircea_popescu, are you a fan of Dan-Mircea Popescu?
mircea_popescu: moriarty just some random twerp, no relevancy no relation.
decimation: mircea_popescu: you mean educatin' the local youths?
mircea_popescu: decimation yes.
mircea_popescu: in a sense, the renaissance was the golden age of us libtardism.
decimation: asciilifeform: do you write lisp in exchange for bezzlars?
mircea_popescu: back then princesses went into the hovels to rescue genius.
asciilifeform: decimation: nope. but i do solve problems for bezzlars
mircea_popescu: the current libtards are really just trying to do a sort of "being cinderella" except a little deeper than disney
asciilifeform: decimation: and it sometimes - when absolutely cannot be avoided - requires writing programs.
moriarty: asciilifeform, lol
mircea_popescu: by now it's a good three centuries plus a world explored past its sell by date
moriarty: asciilifeform, you make it sound like you dislike programming
moriarty: pshaw
decimation: I think it has been mooted here that the reason why the early (1800's) us worked for awhile is because of the memories of law&order beaten into the parents & grandparents of those living here
moriarty: !up daybyter
moriarty: awh :) daybyter wanted to say something on the main
asciilifeform in fact dislikes programming
decimation: !up daybyter
moriarty: asciilifeform, yeah i think nobody likes coding for the sake of coding
decimation: asciilifeform: yeah reading your blog has removed the romance of programming for me
moriarty: most people i know who like coding actually mistake their liking for solving puzzles, for liking coding
decimation: when I was younger, I wanted to explore the infinite potential
mircea_popescu: decimation the 1800s worked because at the time europe was mismanaging human resources, and so you could actually get free value by just taking its rejects. then early 1900s worked because the whole country obeyed its betters, so carnegie, rockefeller et co could create a monopoly on the world.
mircea_popescu: once that died, the country died.
decimation: yeah that died with wwi, wilson and fdr
decimation: and the mass suicide of europe
mircea_popescu: it got a lease on life once eu once again decided to mismanaged, ]
mircea_popescu: and bombed itself into chad in ww2
mircea_popescu: but that's also running out.
moriarty: didn't the 1800s also work because EU projected its dominance globally through colonialism?
mircea_popescu: left to stand on its own, buffett's "immense potential" will die under the paws of some young lion
mircea_popescu: whether that young lion is mp or not.
decimation: I suspect the American Caesar walks the earth somewhere
mircea_popescu: i'll bet you he doesn't.
decimation: in the sense that the dying country will split rather than come under stronger central rule?
mircea_popescu: in the sense that a boring place can not have interesting people.
mircea_popescu: this is like saying kentucky has a hemingway
mircea_popescu: orly.
decimation: heh. he did spend most of his life adventuring among the gauls
mircea_popescu: but as such he exists because new york, not because lincoln, nebraska.
mircea_popescu: the american caesar, if he exists, will caesarize in chile or w/e.
decimation: this is an illusion to some extant, because new york/coastal cities suck the intelligent youth from flyover country
mircea_popescu: well, now the whole us is flyover country.
decimation: when usd is no longer king, new york sudden finds itself ... lacking value
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mircea_popescu: asciilifeform wants to escape it. why ? and how is his desire different from young peasant kid in village in russia cca 1814
mircea_popescu: or housewife in midwest in 1964 ?
mircea_popescu: "it sucks at home". course it does. cause boring place with boring people.
decimation: or the german farmer circa 1850
mircea_popescu: it's not even a matter of whether social justice and pc and the rest of the crap is right or wrong
mircea_popescu: for all anyone cares, the ideas of midwest people re cattle and rain are right.
mircea_popescu: just nobody wanted to sit there and discuss that.
decimation: boredom is a powerful motivator
mircea_popescu: quite. and intellectually dead places go beddy-bye whether they agree they're intellectually dead or not.
decimation: this is one of the 'safety valves' of mass-democracy (like in scotland)
decimation: the illusion of a mysterious outcome keeps the people invested
mircea_popescu: not sure how long that lasts, and it selects negatively.
mircea_popescu: the ones it keeps you didn't want. much like africa forever, much like renaissance europe ec.
asciilifeform: decimation: 'valve' << except for the problem that the defeated are left alive, to stink loudly and plan a comeback
decimation: which is why victory is so terrible for the triumphant empire
mircea_popescu: i really was expecting independence
decimation: independence would have been the more amusing outcome, for sure
decimation: It would be fun to watch an english-speaking enclave go full libtard
asciilifeform: independence << that is only a permitted outcome when the 'orcs' vote.
mircea_popescu: i still dunno wtf they did to make such a wide margin happen.
decimation: They should have allowed infants to vote
mircea_popescu: or maybe i don't well understand the structures of incentive, not living there
mircea_popescu: but why would anyone want in the uk ?!
mircea_popescu: it's like wanting to be part of puerto rico
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: unless i'm misinformed, scotland runs deep in the red.
mircea_popescu: so ?
asciilifeform: snip it off - get a 'greece'.
decimation: I suspect a big voting bloc were welfare recipients who feared the sudden lack of welfare bezzlars
mircea_popescu: decimation but they got the oil
mircea_popescu: so they can borrow anew
mircea_popescu: so... MORE welfare.
mircea_popescu: not less
decimation: that's a good point
decimation: and welfare states work much better when the population is smaller
decimation: ie kuwait
mircea_popescu: quite.
mircea_popescu: plus, russia'd have loved to sponsor them
mircea_popescu: which is why i expected landslide independence rly.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ^ precisely why this outcome wasn't on the menu.
mircea_popescu: seemed to me putin's counter to the ukraine. fuck with us, lose the uk sorta deal.
decimation: russia would love to shower scotland with bezzlars so he could use them as a wedge to split the eu
mircea_popescu: imagine, russian nuke subs in glasgow.
mircea_popescu: while england's own "fleet", w/e it is lol... do they still have it btw ?
mircea_popescu: 1 1/2 subs
mircea_popescu: desperate for dresden passage
decimation: yeah they still have a handful of nuke subs
mircea_popescu: hardly a handful im sure
asciilifeform: perhaps ru subs are already in glasgow. without having to also keep scots as pets.
decimation: I think they recently retired their 'aircraft carrier'
decimation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Invincible_%28R05%29
assbot: HMS Invincible (R05) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
bounce: !up moriarty
moriarty: so i bet on scotland outcome
moriarty: and came out $250k richer
moriarty: life has been good to me
mircea_popescu: 1/4 mn ?!
moriarty: yep
mircea_popescu: where the hell did you bet that
moriarty: william hill
mircea_popescu: hey, wd.
mircea_popescu: what were the ods ?
moriarty: 1/4
decimation: reading the history of the falklands war demonstrates how threadbare the uk military really is
moriarty: thanks, it's a nice outcome after months of boring market action
moriarty: the only country in the world with serious military gear is the US
bounce: there's russia still
moriarty: and as of this moment, they are being led by a pussyfoot for a president
bounce: oh and china
moriarty: lol china
mircea_popescu: no. china.
mircea_popescu: the us is negligible by comparison.
moriarty: china has to deceive russia into thinking it is using some old aircraft carrier as museum showpiece
moriarty: just so it can get its hands on it
mircea_popescu: you can tell this by the very good predictor that when china told the us to get fucked, the us secretary of state promised to carefully avoid misunderstandings in the future
mircea_popescu: in the most humble display of abjection imaginable.
moriarty: china has economic might not military clout
mircea_popescu: you are ill informed.
bounce: if china cared enough it could zerg rush just about anyone. plus their gear is getting better -- best stolen from anywhere.
moriarty: lol
mircea_popescu: much better than that, even.
mircea_popescu: 90s was "better - stolen"
mircea_popescu: today, forget it.
moriarty: china's military hardware is up for speculation
moriarty: until the day it actually uses it, we can argue to no end
moriarty: for now, their leadership is even more pussyfooted than obama
mircea_popescu: or we could read secret dispatches, check out how the various actors behave around it, who knows, even go to a military expo.
mircea_popescu: that's never changing. china is a shitty agressor.
decimation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck << it took 11 refueling planes for one bomber to bomb stanley field in the falklands
assbot: Operation Black Buck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
moriarty: its aggressions are all economical so far
bounce: sure. but you'll note that when the us started to use all those beltway bandit toys they broke in droves and could be pwned by IEDs
moriarty: "do this or we won't sell you cheap shit"
mircea_popescu: moriarty china just isn't particularly aggressive.
bounce: the us not only has the most advanced toys anywhere, it relies on them being so. china wouldn't have to. big difference.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, china is actually pretty aggressive territorially
moriarty: mircea_popescu, have you seen the latest china passport?
mircea_popescu: what about it ?
decimation: they have been derping in the south china sea recently
moriarty: decimation, exactly
mircea_popescu: well yeah, it being the south CHINA sea
moriarty: mircea_popescu, the passport outlines where china thinks its borders are
mircea_popescu: suppose someone was derping in anchorage bay.
mircea_popescu: moriarty hardly aggression.
decimation: http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/02/us-philippines-usa-idUSBREA4107020140502
assbot: Philippines to give U.S. forces access to up to five military bases| Reuters
mircea_popescu: aggression is when it comes to bomb canada and expects the us to mind its own fucking business.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, economic aggression can be just as painful
mircea_popescu: sure.
mircea_popescu: pain is not the basis of this discussion.
moriarty: mircea_popescu, as russia is finding out as a result of ukraine
mircea_popescu: you're misinformed :)
mircea_popescu: russia is fine. the us is too high to notice how fucked it's getting.
decimation: moriarty: it looks to me russia has the whip hand
decimation: what exactly is the us going to do about the ukraine? invade?
moriarty: decimation, in terms of land grab, maybe
moriarty: decimation, but for the cost of its own GDP
moriarty: i don't know
mircea_popescu: no, in terms of who gets flattened by an economic war
decimation: russia's oil will find buyers
moriarty: well, the US won't be affected by the embargo so much actually
moriarty: EU is the one who has to suffer
mircea_popescu: o, i see :D
decimation: last I read in the newspapers, Germany is pretty much on Russia's side
mircea_popescu: because the eu is so fucking married to the us and everything.
moriarty: of course
moriarty: because Germany has more to lose
moriarty: well, partially that
mircea_popescu: moriarty no, because the us is getting screwed in its imaginary economic war.
mircea_popescu: and germany doesn't want to be in the fallout
moriarty: but also the EU has more energy dependency on Russia than the US
decimation: this is true, but the us is itching to start exporting natural gas by ship
decimation: no one is going to go without gas or whatever
mircea_popescu: such an ineffectual process dear lord
bounce: so, us gas aid for ukraine then?
mircea_popescu: "let's save the environment by shipping natural gas across the atlantic because we're too bigmouthed to fit a cock"
decimation: I see it in the cards
moriarty: lol
mircea_popescu: bounce yes. airlifted :D
mircea_popescu: ich been ain odesseer
decimation: Odessa used to have a very large german population until Stalin
mircea_popescu: it's what makes the joke good
decimation: hehe
moriarty: anyway one of the nice perks of the war is that, Ukrainian beauties now come cheap
decimation: the mass rabble in the us will have no stomach for intervening in the ukraine
moriarty: :)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12800 @ 0.00074843 = 9.5799 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: they've alsways been.
mircea_popescu: sooo... yesterday was trilema's largest reading day. yet nothing happened. 90%+ of it direct, too. wtf.
decimation: http://library.ndsu.edu/grhc/history_culture/history/german_american_journal1.html
decimation: "The Germans from Russia are descendents of Germans who settled in Russia in the years about 1763 to 1862. Their story begins with Tsarina Catherine II (Catherine the Great) who was empress of Russia, but a German princess by birth. In July 1763 she issued a manifesto to attract people from Western Europe to settle in Russia. The manifesto promised new settlers freedom of religion, freedom from taxes for a 5-30 year period, freedom
decimation: from military service, and free land to farmers. By the end of 1767, German settlers from central Germany had established more than 100 colonies along the Volga River, near Saratov, Russia."
decimation: mircea_popescu: presumably people were googling for reasons why bitcoin prices were falling
moriarty: afk folks, enjoy the weekend
mircea_popescu: decimation i'd see it as search not as direct. meanwhile search incoming is dominated by keywords like "true"
mircea_popescu: seriously, 20% of my search traffic came looking for... "true" ? what the fucking hell of a cosmic joke is this.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.141905 = 0.5676 BTC [+] {2}
decimation: huh. do the redirects come from particular domains?
mircea_popescu: they're not redirects. in fact, linked traffic has always been 10% or less, as far as trilema is concerned.
mircea_popescu: this month it's more like 4%
decimation: interesting. So that means people are visiting from bookmarks/rss/etc?
mircea_popescu: yeah
mircea_popescu: well i guess if they have silent (non js, non url-forwarding etc) browsers it could be from anywhere
mircea_popescu: trilema is really non-js friendly so i guess it prolly has more nonjs readers than average interwebs
mircea_popescu: "one of the great strengths of the APL ecosystem so far are the user community. Lispy people are a preposterously pricklish and unhelpful bunch in comparison."
mircea_popescu: is this true even ?
mircea_popescu: "But part of it definitely stems from the incessant stream of ignorant criticisms leveled at the Lisp community by outsiders" asciilifeform it occurs to me that if the outsiders can do that then the whole ecosystem empowers outsiders to an outrageous, unwarranted and quite dangerous degree.
mircea_popescu: if your highschool peers can make you antisocial by claiming you're antisocial then there's no incentive for them to abstain is there.
ben_vulpes: programmers are the herdiest of creatures
ben_vulpes: witness the insane popularity of v8 - js on the server!
ben_vulpes: also infected with "niceness" - don't talk shit on js! it's not nice!
mircea_popescu: i choose not to witness.
bounce: saves going door to door
decimation: no dude node.js is going to change everything
mircea_popescu: everything that passport.net did or w/e that crap was called
mircea_popescu: i can't read locklin without him annoying me. such a total schmoozeball.
mircea_popescu: "advertising is a symptom of insufficient demand or insufficient supply." naggum o.O
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'antisocial' in this case is same kind of 'antisocial' as, e.g., mathematicians who won't ask to learn from redditors how to do topology 'correctly according to the kommyoonity!'
mircea_popescu: this is what i meant, obliquely. if you allow the "community" of screaming monkeys to decide whether you are antisocial type 1 or 2, you're giving them too much power.
mircea_popescu: and if you conform by doing the "since they call me a thief anyway might as well", you are actually giving away that much power.
mircea_popescu: consider a simpler case, let me find it.
asciilifeform: if surrounded by monkeys, and for one reason or another can't call an exterminator - what to do.
asciilifeform: in this case - walls.
asciilifeform: walls tall enough that the monkeys don't even know, normally, that there is a something behind them, or walls at all.
asciilifeform: sometimes - a chimp finds a loose brick, and you have a little infestation problem.
mircea_popescu: "The site is owned by the most annoying, donkey riding arsehole involved with bitcoin." "Unlike all the others, owned by nice people that ran off with your coins." "I wish that arsehole would run off with all the coins if it meant never hearing from him again."
mircea_popescu: this should make it obvious. of course redditard monkey would love nothing more than for his idiocy to be confirmed.
mircea_popescu: important to remember that his declarative statements are powerless to influence reality, and as much as he'd like to live in a world where there's no incentive for me to stay honest,
mircea_popescu: nevertheless the world and his like have no common points.
asciilifeform: the most unbearable itch, to monkey, is the mental hole in his picture of the world, the annoying hatefact that rubs his nose in the entire model being horseshit.
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: but what would be the equivalent to "lisp people being prickly" in context ?
mircea_popescu: me splitting with everyone's cash because some redditard says things ?
mircea_popescu: nonsense, that. equally nonsense in both cases.
ben_vulpes is a monkey with tools beyond his sophisticaiton
mircea_popescu: you can't become prickly just because people are idiots. it's giving idiots too much say.
asciilifeform: they are 'prickly' in the sense that their only contact with a world outside their own is redditards knocking on the door to 'teach how the world is'
mircea_popescu: perhaps.
decimation: the next step is to become a hermit in the taiga I guess
asciilifeform: http://scottlocklin.wordpress.com/2012/09/12/not-all-programmers-alike/#comment-3676
assbot: Not all programmers are alike: a language rant | Locklin on science
asciilifeform: hermit in taiga :
asciilifeform: !s perelman mode
assbot: 3 results for 'perelman mode' : http://search.bitcoin-assets.com/?q=perelman+mode
ben_vulpes: whoa abcl runs on the jvm
ben_vulpes: my ignorance knows no bounds
mircea_popescu: hence boundless ignorance ? that ignorance ignorant even of bounds ?
ben_vulpes: i know not what i know not
ben_vulpes: alternatively, i know i know naught
decimation: re: model being horeshit: "Because, we know that with theoretical cherry picking someone can come up with a set of assumptions that produces a result that may logically follow from those assumptions, but if the assumptions really don't have much traction in the real world, that result really doesn't have much to say about what we are actually looking at. " << from my econtalk link above
mircea_popescu: decimation it's worse than that! consider : you could pick arbitrary assumptions and arbitrary data sets so as to theoretically and practically justify a particular theory sufficiently so that it gives the desired results for a FINITE time interval, calculated to exceed the probable testing period.
mircea_popescu: this is how us kids learn for exams, for instance.
mircea_popescu: fraud through and through, and yet.
mircea_popescu: proponents of such tailored "knowledge" will understandably fight tooth and nail with some classes of rational approach, such as the people who use the counterexample effectually (aka, trolls)
mircea_popescu: amusingly enough, for the capacities of the basic rational agent, they'd seem to have a point, too!
decimation: moriarty earlier said that such an attitude is 'simplistic' - after all, how can these people (economists, programmers, students) have so many papers and have said nothing?
mircea_popescu: i would suggest the volume in and of itself is proof they say nothing.
asciilifeform: this relates directly to certain circles seen as 'prickly'
asciilifeform: it comes mainly from not wishing to dissolve in the sea.
asciilifeform: not everyone is itching to be part of some gigantic 'everyone' who will 'do things their way'
asciilifeform: naggum wrote that the worst thing that could possibly happen to common lisp is if it became 'mainstream' and popular.
mircea_popescu: but that is a much more self aware, and effectually applied, violence than mere prickliness.
mircea_popescu: it's being an ashole deliberately and oppressing selected idiots wilfully.
mircea_popescu: maybe wrongly, but the term to me suggested involuntary and incontinence. which is what the entire observation was based on, after all :
mircea_popescu: if it's voluntary, if the prickly is passive, then the other party is active, and to the active goes the agency.
mircea_popescu: too much agency for a monkey.
asciilifeform: sometimes this situation evolves in interesting directions. e.g., monkeys steal a small subset of man's tech, and build a cargo-cultish airplane - but one which sorta flies when the weather is just so.
asciilifeform: then, for one reason or another (monkey overruns man's city; or, more commonly, man begins to turn monkey-like in his haste and sloth and adopts monkey's approach to design) and the fair-weather airplane becomes the only kind extant.
mircea_popescu: that may explain how we ended up with the current usg.
mircea_popescu: not a bad model of it at any rate.
asciilifeform: this is how we got these things that we call 'computer' even though i can't flip a switch that stops all cpus and shows me all the places 'quicksort' is mentioned on the machine and which ones got invoked in the last 7 days.
asciilifeform: and for how long
mircea_popescu: well top sorta-does that.
asciilifeform: nope.
decimation: something like 'dtrace' is closer
asciilifeform: nope again.
asciilifeform: i don't mean a specially-instrumented crippled proggy running for the occasion
decimation: yeah I get your point
mircea_popescu: i sometimes wonder how computing would work if linux weren't built on "packages" as implemented, but on actual functions
asciilifeform: see, precisely my point - i say 'airplane' and -everybody- assumes i mean 'gadget that flies 2 metres above ground for ten minutes if wind is blowing east'
decimation: mircea_popescu: the kernel kinda works that way
mircea_popescu: i guess, but originally i got very pissed off at ubuntu becaus you can't make a non-networking ubuntu machine without rewriting it all, instead of simply uninstalling netowrking.
asciilifeform: on a proper computer, e.g., 'quicksort' or 'newton-raphson method' are distinct entities. and there are no 'programs' as such, only a graph of circuit linkages.
mircea_popescu: however, that's not the point. suppose i want my machine to always use bubblesort. everywhere
mircea_popescu: and i want to accomplish this by replacing quicksort.package with bubblesort.package
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on a lisp machine, you actually could.
asciilifeform: (merely redefine what 'sort' with no arguments does.)
mircea_popescu: maybe we make one sometime just for this reason.
decimation: asciilifeform: I agree that would be a great goal, but how do you handle types?
asciilifeform: decimation: handle them where?
decimation: well, let's say you wire (with 74hc say) a quicksort for 16 bit 2's complement signed integers
decimation: how do you re-use the quicksort for floats?
asciilifeform: decimation: if the order predicate is non-inferrable, it is given.
asciilifeform: just as in, for example, common lisp.
asciilifeform: and it appears you misunderstood 'circuit'
asciilifeform: wasn't talking about a hand-wired physical circuit
asciilifeform: but instead an entity which simulates the behaviour of one where possible (in much the same way a tcp/ip telephone attempts to behave like a traditional electric telephone.)
mircea_popescu: why emulate anything, ever.
asciilifeform: the same way electronic calculator 'emulates' a stable of slaves counting with beads.
asciilifeform: sometimes, the simulation turns out to be a superior 'reality' and you throw the old 'reality' out.
mircea_popescu: maybe this is merely semanticism
asciilifeform: and then you say 'british admiralty's logarithmic human calculators were merely emulating this here computer, on account of lacking one'
mircea_popescu: i didn't like the "were possible" part. either always, in which case it's a calculator, or forget it.
asciilifeform: 'where possible' is answer to decimation's pointing out that you cannot, say, carry out multiplication on integers and 'ieee'-style floats on the same physical circuit with any degree of efficiency.
decimation: in which case each type combination would need its own machinery, or at least some method to convert between types
asciilifeform: or, for that matter, i cannot establish, for anywhere short of several $billion, an actual electric circuit from here to buenos aires
asciilifeform: so - stuck simulating one.
asciilifeform: usually - satisfactory.
mircea_popescu nods
decimation: I see how one would want a 'habitable' lower-level simulation language to accomplish this work
mircea_popescu: i just suddenly realised i don't understand why floats were even implemented, at all.
mircea_popescu: why are floats even implemented ?
decimation: mircea_popescu: the bane of numerical analysis students?
mircea_popescu: it's a numeric machine. it only uses integers.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the extreme computational poverty of the 20th c.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it gotta be a meaningless accident huh
decimation: yeah there's no reason why the cpu shouldn't support arbitrary precision arithmetic, even if it takes a lower-level state machine to emulate
decimation: it's an example of ascii's fair-weather 10 foot altitude airplane
mircea_popescu: it is isnt it
mircea_popescu: back then people hadn't figured what the pc is, so they just bolted some capitalistic crap to the sides
mircea_popescu: just in case, who knows, maybe it's used in some case.
decimation: in theory silicon could be masked into any arbitrary design
decimation: in practice the design space is restricted, just like all phones are iphones now
asciilifeform: why do we have floating point hardware instead of rational arithmetic towers? largely, because of code like this:
asciilifeform: http://pastebin.com/scRkxz9w
assbot: [C] example of gcov - Pastebin.com
asciilifeform: where we're really trying to simulate an analogue computer, for some gnarly physical model
mircea_popescu: this has been a very illuminating discussion
asciilifeform: but can't use an actual analogue circuit, because the output is non-deterministic or because noise ends up multiplicative due to the nature of the ops
decimation: yeah, multiplicative noise in analog computers is the bane of rf designers
asciilifeform: it's the reason the tech was abandoned
asciilifeform: despite working quite well - and cheaply - for many operations.
decimation: your car radio multiplies two waveforms with a few diodes and a filter circuit
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> why do we have floating point hardware instead of rational arithmetic towers? << but we don't. we have rational arithmetic towers pretending (unconvincingly) to be floating point hardware
mircea_popescu: and i'll venture a guess that more computer insecurity was caused by this than any other one thing
asciilifeform: 'rational' has literal mathematical meaning here
asciilifeform: as in, answers take the form one '1 / 2' rather than 0.500000
mircea_popescu: quite. the ring of integers and + -
asciilifeform: yes.
asciilifeform: no extant cpu has a 'rational tower' in that sense.
mircea_popescu: all do!
mircea_popescu: what the fuck, all they do is bitwise addition
asciilifeform: ah in that sense - yes
mircea_popescu: well ?
asciilifeform: but in a 'rational tower', the output of 'sqrt(2)' is 'sqrt(2)'.
mircea_popescu: this is an os notation problem
mircea_popescu: in a computer the output of "abc" is "abc' rather than whatever windows may spit out with a bad charset or w/e
asciilifeform: not only notation. to know which operations are not rationally reducible, requires a fairly good symbolic maths apparatus (e.g., 'macsyma' and its plagiarized clones)
asciilifeform: not unsolvable problem by any means
mircea_popescu: it's a numeric machine tho
decimation: (which is really an irrational tower :)
asciilifeform: but quite a bit of work on top of what extant machines do in bare silicon.
decimation: in theory, if maxima can do it in software, it could be done with automa at a lower level in silicon
asciilifeform: think this way. i take a cpu (your choice, which) and put '7' in a register, and '2' in another, and demand that division happen.
mircea_popescu: i suspect maxima only does it "in some cases"
asciilifeform: what is the answer represented?
decimation: depends on the cpu, but you aren't going to get '7/2'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: symbolic maths packages traditionally err on the side of irreducibility
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you can only put 00000007 and 00000002 in the registers, and the result will be 28571428 and an overflow bit.
asciilifeform: point here is that a 'rational tower' is one where no information is lost as a result of this operation.
asciilifeform: this is an important definitional point.
mircea_popescu: that';s not a guarantee finite-register machines can make
mircea_popescu: basically you're saying "take this thing from a compact representation to an infinite representation on a finite space without loss"
asciilifeform: it works so long as 'don't play' is a valid move.
asciilifeform: works until godelized, at any rate.
mircea_popescu: no, cause the no play is not a computer, it's a wife./
mircea_popescu: computer can't have autonomy to decide if to play.
asciilifeform: 'no play' is SOP in physical reality.
asciilifeform: chuck some metal into a lathe, try cutting too deep.
mircea_popescu: which is why reality is a harsh mistress.
decimation: the new jersey method would be to return a buggy result and hope for the best?
mircea_popescu: decimation honestly, filling the register ain't buggy.
asciilifeform: decimation: halfway on the road to african method - sit in a tub of own shit and call it a 'computer'
mircea_popescu: "give me this cup full of 2/7" should result in a cupful
decimation: no, not buggy, but lossy
decimation: but are 8 digits worth of 2/7 actually 2/7?
asciilifeform: student exercise. prove that the minimally-braindamaged implementation of hardware finite-precision floating point requires a base of 'e'.
mircea_popescu: decimation no, but they ARE 8 digits worth of 2/7
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform unless you do trig. then it needs pi
mircea_popescu: not that it's not the same number.
asciilifeform: or use euler's identity...
decimation: yeah it seems to me that you need complex numbers
decimation: so base 'e' would be great for representing arbitrary complex phasors
decimation: right, with euler's identity you could represent sin, cos, and pi without loss
mircea_popescu: were you away doing math for half hour ?
asciilifeform: herr euler did the math, why would he have to.
mircea_popescu: just funny the way he came back later with it :p
decimation: I got sidetracked with herr knuth too
decimation: base e would also be convenient for logarithms
mircea_popescu: im surprised nobody came up with the don knuth is satoshi knack yet.
danielpbarron: !up BlueMeanie4
BlueMeanie4: hey, just writing up some stuff on NXT @ reddit
danielpbarron: apparently one of my tweets that cites a trilema article was mentioned in some youtube video https://twitter.com/mrchrisellis/status/513448933306404866
assbot: BREAKING: US Government losing its monopoly on funding terrorism http://t.co/vhm3OYZBXV by /jencopestake & /BBCClick /hashtag/ISIS?src=hash /hashtag/DarkWallet?src=hash
mircea_popescu: "Possibilitarian, #Cryptocurrency enthusiast & student of philosophy. I hope to make the world better than I found it. Bitcoin"
BlueMeanie4: possibilitiarian
mircea_popescu: i first read presbytarian
BlueMeanie4: does everyone have a gimmick these days?
mircea_popescu: my word dissolver had a moment of "bloody hell!"
BlueMeanie4: im a crypto expert, I also double a circus sideshow freak and a professional craft beer taster
fluffypony: I have a big penis
fluffypony: that's my only claim to fame
fluffypony: :(
mircea_popescu: how big is big ?
fluffypony: 38 on the richter scale
bounce: useful trick: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY&t=94s
assbot: The Most IMPORTANT Video You'll Ever See (part 1 of 8) - YouTube
mircea_popescu: uh. scam.
mircea_popescu: there's 8 most important videos ?
jurov: re: base e floats: they are a bitch to add or increase/decrease by 1
mircea_popescu: so count in e's
mircea_popescu: pretend the world is a huge rave
jurov asks mircea to sell precisely e shares of S.MPOE
decimation: lol
devthedev: "If problems of the planet have an exponential growth, solutions need to have a higher exponential growth."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "To be publicly critical of a project that is still so young and involves so many degrees of freedom reflects poorly on your own intelligence."
mircea_popescu: i definitely love going in old blogs comment sections to fish for these sorts of gems
mircea_popescu: "time will show you how wrong you were!!1"
BlueMeanie4: polyannacoin
mircea_popescu: jurov always the negativist. think, the problem of splitting the pie! always a np problem!
BlueMeanie4: the greatest new crypto coin in the world- not allowed to say anything negative
mircea_popescu: now all it takes is one cut
mircea_popescu: BlueMeanie4 wasn't a coin.
mircea_popescu: it was to be a whole bitcoin killer!
mircea_popescu: with pirates and boats and stuff
jurov: well then...better keep the pie intact
jurov: or, better, split it by cutting out circles
mircea_popescu: pi - e
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19562 @ 0.00074802 = 14.6328 BTC [-] {2}
penguirker: New blog post: http://trilema.com/2014/fuck-africa-or-exploration-in-the-idiocy-of-the-crowd/
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform btw you still hold solar panels cost more energy to make than they produce ?
[]bot: Bet placed: 10 BTC for No on "BTC worth over $5000 before 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/716/ Odds: 8(Y):92(N) by coin, 13(Y):87(N) by weight. Total bet: 69.48359775 BTC. Current weight: 23,543.
mircea_popescu: decimation wait, so the tesla bmc actually can't charge/discharge the cells individually
mircea_popescu: bwahahaha wut.
jurov: did they claim to do it individually?
jurov: giving a power transistor to each cell? i see it's easier to match them
mircea_popescu: jurov well their claim was "the most advanced bmc in teh possibru!!1"
mircea_popescu: so i get to expect it does absolutely anything i can imagine.
mircea_popescu: that's the drawback to bullshit advertising talk
Namworld: That is... an interesting read: http://hddb.teamikaria.com/classic/introduction.htm
assbot: Introduction to the fourth dimension
jurov: hi Namworld, is it related to talk about women earlier today?
Namworld: What? Not aware of earlier talk.
jurov: some dude tried to teach mircea about women "they live in another dimension"
Namworld: I guess that would be a fitting comment. But no, was merely finding that this site had 4 dimensions well explained.
thestringpuller: ;;ticker
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 410.28, Best ask: 412.4, Bid-ask spread: 2.12000, Last trade: 410.24, 24 hour volume: 20019.56640465, 24 hour low: 390.0, 24 hour high: 431.11, 24 hour vwap: 413.168183325
thestringpuller: !l m s.mpoe
assbot: Last trade for S.MPOE on MPEX was at 0.00074802 BTC [-]
thestringpuller: !l h rent
assbot: Last trade for RENT on HAVELOCK was at 0.0075 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: new p.o., thestringpuller
ben_vulpes: fourth fixed offering?
thestringpuller: dunno which number but it happened a few days ago
thestringpuller: havelock investors are pretty irrational ~_~
ben_vulpes: same as before .0075
thestringpuller: http://bitzuma.com/posts/blockchain-info-paper-backup-stores-private-keys-in-the-browser-history/
assbot: Blockchain.info Paper Backup Stores Private Keys in the Browser History - Bitzuma
ben_vulpes: stale ;)
thestringpuller: i had a dream i ran out of cookie dough
thestringpuller: more like a nightmare really
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31750 @ 0.00074735 = 23.7284 BTC [-] {2}