ben_vulpes: heh cazalla today i stepped outside and went snorkeling in perfectly blue waters
pete_dushenski: not that there's a dealership anywhere in the province...
pete_dushenski: ;;later tell trinque as well they should be ! saudi royal necks are on the line and isis is all too happen to use that line as a noose.
trinque: pete_dushenski: ayep; good notes on the convo too
pete_dushenski: ya hardly needed much in the way of notes even, twas a moderately thorough discussion
pete_dushenski: ascii_modem: you don't seem like the broadway type but i'd be fascinated to know what you might see if you had the time for a show.
assbot: Logged on 18-07-2015 18:10:58; mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 so what's the plan, turning stator into a release ? << Yeah. I believe 'stator' + { eat/dump block, rm testnet & verifyall } should be the 5.4 release unless anything additional is submitted before we can finish testing & bundling release.
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 18-07-2015 18:17:48; shinohai: ok, then that is just 2, and testnet isn't important
ascii_modem: (since chairs registered no objection to jettison of testnrt)
assbot: Logged on 18-07-2015 18:20:24; shinohai: I shamefully decided yo put all my crap in a github repo. There is no better way right now for me to organize it all.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54500 @ 0.00053916 = 29.3842 BTC [-]
mod6: <+ascii_modem>
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-07-2015#1205870 << wai wut - ?? - no one signed that he has read, tested - and straight to release? << I certainly did not mean to imply immediate release. Just that I'll build a test plan surrounding what i've indicated. Process is already underway.
☝︎ assbot: Logged on 18-07-2015 18:10:58; mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 so what's the plan, turning stator into a release ? << Yeah. I believe 'stator' + { eat/dump block, rm testnet & verifyall } should be the 5.4 release unless anything additional is submitted before we can finish testing & bundling release.
mod6: I still do need to sign that I've read the patches, might get to that tonight yet. Or tomorrow. We'll see how it goes.
mod6: There will be a testing phase with a distributed full-patched bundle... call it RC1.
mod6: There is no time specific timeline for this in the public domain yet.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76672 @ 0.0005544 = 42.507 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: <decimation> boost fails to compile << i actually ran into this when hacking against solrodar's clang + graphviz callgraph thinger
☟︎ ben_vulpes: ;;later tell solrodar hey man i need a hand compiling boost in order to test your callgraph visualizer
☟︎ gribble: solrodar was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 3 days, 4 hours, 48 minutes, and 46 seconds ago: <solrodar> trinque: thanks
assbot: Philip Greenspun's Weblog » What other currencies besides Bitcoin have experienced inverse debasement? (“basement”?) ... (
http://bit.ly/1JpIIzL )
Adlai: pete_dushenski: your comment doesn't appear from here
cazalla: pete_dushenski, i don't see your comment either
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33105 @ 0.00055686 = 18.4349 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: i don't see your comment either
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9295 @ 0.00056284 = 5.2316 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: you'd know better than i about the test drive. that's just how i got my butt in one.
cazalla: 100k for a car is such extravagance!
pete_dushenski: you can't tell me 100k isn't the same as a 7 year waiting list
cazalla: don't get me wrong, some of these cars in that price range do look nice but i cannot imagine putting the cash down for it let alone taking a loan
pete_dushenski: if you're pulling in 3-4x the price of your car, it's no sweat.
ben_vulpes: instead of spending 75k on a car, how about we get 75k worth of...cars?
ben_vulpes: a sedan, a truck, a gas-guzzling roadster, a mommymobile, a camperwagon...
pete_dushenski: actually this isn't a bad game : name all the cars you'd buy with $75k cash. go !
ben_vulpes: buy them pre-depreciated, and treat them like the capital equipment they are.
ben_vulpes: anyways, the drivetrain is incorrect. yes, electrical drive is fantastic for the low-end torque, but regen brakes of engineering necessity must clamp down insanely hard in order to maximize current out of the machines.
☟︎ ben_vulpes: this makes it difficult to finesse the brake.
ben_vulpes: but to return to the drivetrain: if you *insist* on an eletrical drivetrain, look to the Volt for the correct implementation.
ben_vulpes: piles of low-end torque, backed by a battery that is powered by an ICE generator.
pete_dushenski: drove it/ferried it from vancouver to victoria and back one day
mod6: thanks for the reminder ben_vulpes!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5200 @ 0.00056284 = 2.9268 BTC [+]
decimation: the volt was a good idea - except for its price
decimation: anywyay pete going to your point last night, I think that's why uk 'top gear' was so popular
decimation: they had the balls to call most of the cars they drove 'crap'
pete_dushenski: that's certainly why i enjoyed tg and i was hardly alone
pete_dushenski: who is not only an entertaining presenter but a wicked wordsmith
decimation: that's why the other top gears didn't really work, clarkson made the show
decimation: it's a real shame the whole thing ended the way it did - clarkson being sacked for hitting the incompetent servants
pete_dushenski: looking up prices for porsche 964/993 generation of 911 for '$75 dream garage' and i cannot motherfucking believe how inflated their prices have become in the last 5 years
decimation: yeah, it's the case for all the 'billionare toys'
pete_dushenski: i almost bought a black japanese import '89 964 in 2010 for ~25k. it would readily command 60k today from what i'm seeing on ebay and autotrader.
decimation: is it because porsche has 'moved on' to a new design?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18215 @ 0.00056284 = 10.2521 BTC [+]
decimation: lol I didn't realize the old ones were air cooled
decimation: my dad told me that his dad used to have an air-cooled vw beetle back in the day
decimation: it sucked because there was no cabin heat; they weren't allowed to breathe
decimation: some of the later beetles had a 'gasoline heater' kit
☟︎ pete_dushenski: lol i was driven to kindergarten in a '71 beetle that was exactly like this.
cazalla: pete_dushenski, ya got dat dere momo steering wheel bro?
decimation: I would imagine that porsche comes with gas burning heater
cazalla: i dunno man, just shit stirring.. we need some more green thumbs in #b-a, petrol heads are winning
decimation: cazalla: you grow your own brussel sprouts?
cazalla: decimation, yeah, probably another 4 weeks or so until i can eat em
decimation: I love brussel sprouts, I'm not sure it's worth growing them. I guess they are easy to freeze
cazalla: i planted them mid march from memory and yeah, i am not sure it is worth growing them either given limited space.. take a while
cazalla: plus i lose half my gardening area to shade in the winter here.. shitty houses built close together which block out the sun
mod6: i've got 22 tomato plants, 8 pepper plants and 4 cucumbers. tomatoes are starting to ripen...
cazalla: i've got about 20 fava beans, 10 sprouts, bunch of spring onions, rocket and english spinach and i just put some more radish in which should be ready to be pulled once spring arrives
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19700 @ 0.00056279 = 11.087 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 01:36:55; decimation: some of the later beetles had a 'gasoline heater' kit
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2200 @ 0.00056279 = 1.2381 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13959 @ 0.00054583 = 7.6192 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 89900 @ 0.00054099 = 48.635 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70850 @ 0.00056107 = 39.7518 BTC [+] {2}
mod6: And for something that's really making my head scratch..
mod6: does any one have any clue why removing .gitignore files would cause this?!
mod6: bascially, what I do is; extract v0.5.3.1, patch up through -verifyall then apply the rm_gitignore patch. then this ^^
mod6: oh hmm, for some reason, i don't understand this (maybe someone can look at my patch and tell me why??) but apparently not only were the .gitignore files removed, but the directories were too.
mod6: lol. own patch rejected.
mod6: so yah, looks like the patch blows away the obj/nogui dir along with the .gitignore file (it's the only file in the dir at the time - a clue maybe?) but if replaced, the compiles fine.
mod6: does anyone see a reason to keep src/obj-test and src/obj/test ?
mod6: i think those can actually go away, but src/obj/nogui/ needs to stay.
mod6: after an actual test.
mod6: i guess src/obj-test needs to stay because of the test stubs & it's ref'd in the makefile. that's fine.
assbot: Logged on 01-07-2015 02:54:25; mod6: huh, now i have one chain that has 2 that match and one that differs: f7ab989febce649e49f8373f1c5a5fbd44008dd21eaf16ce0d1b73e1070421f0 blk0008.dat && b1d0da3ff6b2b2d6da096f06cf7359ca98e08490ab61202f94468587f51aaee5 blk0008.dat
mod6: I don't see any ref's in the makefile to src/obj/test
mod6: i think that one can go away ^^
mod6: maybe i should just leave it for now.
assbot: Logged on 05-03-2015 04:41:23; decimation:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/102477304 < "When it comes to price growth, however, New York topped the list for prime property worldwide, according to Knight Frank. Prices jumped 18 percent in New York in 2014. Aspen, Colorado, ranked second, with prices up 16 percent."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9550 @ 0.00054873 = 5.2404 BTC [-]
mod6: this problem is really goofy.
mod6: i can't get it to remove the file and leave the dir, or to just truncate the file and leave the dir.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43000 @ 0.0005484 = 23.5812 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: so that isn't gonna work.
mod6: if anyone has any ideas on this, let me know. im stumped
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16501 @ 0.00053764 = 8.8716 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20599 @ 0.00053728 = 11.0674 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19801 @ 0.00053289 = 10.5518 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: `man 1 patch`: -E When patch removes a file, it also attempts to remove any empty ancestor directories. << i can't get it to leave the empty dirs.
mod6: perhaps we just don't use my submitted patch and then I just prune the baracles by hand in the release source base.
mod6: leaving the necessary directories.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24600 @ 0.00055628 = 13.6845 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22775 @ 0.00053863 = 12.2673 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29564 @ 0.00054985 = 16.2558 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33967 @ 0.00055763 = 18.941 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20850 @ 0.00055783 = 11.6308 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: mod6: were they using .gitignore files as .gitkeeps?
ben_vulpes: btw is it me or was linus retarded for making git work in such a way that one has to stick a file in a dir to get git to keep it around?
ben_vulpes: AND if i'm reading this thread correctly if we blow away the DIR (!?!) compilation fails?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30450 @ 0.00054694 = 16.6543 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4950 @ 0.00055783 = 2.7613 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16100 @ 0.00054538 = 8.7806 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3290 @ 0.00054346 = 1.788 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18800 @ 0.00055783 = 10.4872 BTC [+]
punkman: oic now, forgot to put ShrinkDebugFile back in after deleting in first version, sorry!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7090 @ 0.00055471 = 3.9329 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13340 @ 0.00055783 = 7.4415 BTC [+]
jurov: how would that help?
jurov: looks like you'll end up with content distribution network and that does not need one c block
mircea_popescu: im all for it, let the guy waste his botnet time on qntra, 255 ips at a time, 65536 ips at a time, whatever.
mircea_popescu: not like he's doing any damage to anything but himself.
jurov: you think it's ionly some kids that will exhaust their resources soon?
jurov: otherwise your whole C or even D block may get null routed instead...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27513 @ 0.00055471 = 15.2617 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26200 @ 0.00055783 = 14.6151 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30250 @ 0.00055922 = 16.9164 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16726 @ 0.00056182 = 9.397 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10250 @ 0.00056131 = 5.7534 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43850 @ 0.00055825 = 24.4793 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26811 @ 0.00055914 = 14.9911 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19489 @ 0.00056284 = 10.9692 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 00:22:12; assbot: Logged on 18-07-2015 18:10:58; mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 so what's the plan, turning stator into a release ? << Yeah. I believe 'stator' + { eat/dump block, rm testnet & verifyall } should be the 5.4 release unless anything additional is submitted before we can finish testing & bundling release.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28847 @ 0.00055459 = 15.9983 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14253 @ 0.00055314 = 7.8839 BTC [-]
assbot: Philip Greenspun's Weblog » What other currencies besides Bitcoin have experienced inverse debasement? (“basement”?) ... (
http://bit.ly/1RGSg3h )
assbot: Logged on 18-07-2015 18:33:59; mod6: Anyway, most of the submissions so far have been pretty top notch. We want to encourage people in the WoT to submit patches. If something is submitted but doesn't make it into a release right away, that certainly doesn't mean it won't be pulled in to a later milestone.
assbot: Logged on 18-07-2015 19:07:35; ben_vulpes: <punkman> I'd really like the debug.log to be parseable, that's the main motivation here << this is an excellent goal. a+ if you crap out an EBNF to go along with it, instead of some "protocol is in the code" parser script.
assbot: Logged on 18-07-2015 21:38:39; felipelalli: keep both online, but when the free version is being attacked at least you have an alternative
mircea_popescu: i guess we're all just holding our breaths for the gossipd
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 00:41:04; ben_vulpes: ;;later tell solrodar hey man i need a hand compiling boost in order to test your callgraph visualizer
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 01:18:02; ben_vulpes: anyways, the drivetrain is incorrect. yes, electrical drive is fantastic for the low-end torque, but regen brakes of engineering necessity must clamp down insanely hard in order to maximize current out of the machines.
mircea_popescu: there are TONS of such problems with the thing. not that they're necessarily unresolvable - maybe they'll get fixed. they won't get fixed however for a pet project that goes about as far as the "be an astronaut" curios.
punkman: fwiw, I've read the patches and it all seems good. I only have reservations about the 2 orphanage burning patches
☟︎ mircea_popescu: if you can make a strong statement about some/all, signing's not a bad idea.
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 01:31:55; pete_dushenski: easily 2-2.5x 2010 prices. easily.
mircea_popescu: with actual kicks to the backside, no joking around. "you are done in this industry and your mothers should be ashamed of fucking drunks"
mircea_popescu: and this because if i were the board of an automaker where this happened and the ceo failed to so fire the design team, i'd so fire the ceo.
mircea_popescu: this is failure of an unprecedented scale, i'm not even sure it can be put into words what exactly it means.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4300 @ 0.00055314 = 2.3785 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36162 @ 0.00055557 = 20.0905 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29256 @ 0.0005637 = 16.4916 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7450 @ 0.00056505 = 4.2096 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14450 @ 0.00056573 = 8.1748 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36100 @ 0.00054822 = 19.7907 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54050 @ 0.00055107 = 29.7853 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22759 @ 0.00054622 = 12.4314 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25130 @ 0.00057306 = 14.401 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19450 @ 0.00056998 = 11.0861 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16300 @ 0.00057472 = 9.3679 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16844 @ 0.00054479 = 9.1764 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17162 @ 0.00057475 = 9.8639 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17903 @ 0.00057326 = 10.2631 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2997 @ 0.00057531 = 1.7242 BTC [+]
danielpbarron: Naphex, is it possible to initiate private shows, or at the very least send private messages to the model?
danielpbarron: i mean, why not? why does the troll box have to be visible to other wanker?
danielpbarron: isn't the point to tell the girl what you'd like to see
danielpbarron: having to do this on display infront of other guys isn't the most condusive to arousal i would imagine
danielpbarron: or maybe i totally misunderstand the demographic you're looking to attract
Naphex: ah :D didn't know you were that emberrased :)
Naphex: perhaps try a new nickname :p
Naphex: but seriously, at some point i will be adding a private button with pay per minute
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8967 @ 0.00055614 = 4.9869 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22150 @ 0.00055614 = 12.3185 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28650 @ 0.00057531 = 16.4826 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20650 @ 0.00057569 = 11.888 BTC [+] {3}
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> mod6: were they using .gitignore files as .gitkeeps? << it seems that way kinda. i guess people tend to use .gitkeep (an unsupported work around instead. but w/e)
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> AND if i'm reading this thread correctly if we blow away the DIR (!?!) compilation fails? << yeah, it's not really linus or git, it's patch that does the dirty work. and yeah, the makefile depends on being able to write to some of the dirs.
mod6: <+punkman> oic now, forgot to put ShrinkDebugFile back in after deleting in first version, sorry! << np, just resubmit and i'll give it another try. or even just pass me a version before submit if you like just to be sure it works. np.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 91995 @ 0.00054932 = 50.5347 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31355 @ 0.00053912 = 16.9041 BTC [-] {3}
mod6: oh and there is a new Gentoo guide for nomultilib/glibc -- I created it yesterday & trinque verified as well:
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 11:37:45; punkman: fwiw, I've read the patches and it all seems good. I only have reservations about the 2 orphanage burning patches
mod6: So this can be used as a test platform for all the patches, etc. . If you're really ambitious you can install gentoo as above ^^ then use this to pull down the v0.5.3.1 basecode and apply these patches:
http://dpaste.com/23VKWD8.txt mod6: But you'll still have to create your own distfiles + ourlibs then drop in ssl/bdb/boost into distfiles. then pull down stator and build.
mod6: so yeah this is annoying with `patch`. if you do `patch -p1 --posix < rm_gitignore.patch` it doesn't remove the dirs /or/ the files, just leaves 'em truncated. which is dumb too.
mod6: i searched lastnight for a looong time to find anything to tell patch to no prune empty directories, but it doesnt seem like an available option.
mod6: it does remove dirs.
mod6: check out `man 1 patch` -E
mod6: yeah, it basically zero's out the file, and then it seems to remove the file with -N (diff) and if there is nothing left in the directory, it zaps that as well.
mod6: lol, yeah it's obnoxious. and i think the only way to solve this is to remove them by hand.
mod6: but now I'm scared that even if i /do/ remove them by hand, they might get accidentially pruned by a downstream patch (later in time) causing the makefile to puke.
☟︎☟︎ mod6: ben reminded me to add a patch that removes the 5 .gitignore files. seems easy enough, so crated a quick patch, attempted to apply, worked fine -- I didn't notice that it blew away the directories as well though. : obj/test obj/nogui obj-test
mod6: yah, and when applied `patch` ends up removing the dirs along with the .gitignore files because it renderes those directories empty.
mod6: lol, it's trying to be helpful.
mod6: "why would you want an empty directory!"
mod6: so... yah, a bash script or removal by hand. would be fine i'd think. but now i gotta test it a bit harder. if we leave empty directories in there, im worred that patch might come along at a later time and be helpful again, removing those object output diretories.
mod6: unless our solution is to add .keep files in there, which i think kinda sucks.
mod6: if i want an empty dir, i should be able to have an empty dir
mod6: anyway i'll work on it. just don't use the rm_gitignore patch.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.00057588 = 7.3137 BTC [+] {2}
mod6: i might just be dumb. build a test env with
http://dpaste.com/23VKWD8.txt and see if anyone can get the rm_gitignore.patch file to apply without removing the obj/test obj/nogui or obj-test dirrs
mod6: well, thats weird. it seems to remove obj/test and obj/nogui, but NOT obj-test which is left empty?!!?
mod6: now im really confused.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36050 @ 0.00055166 = 19.8873 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: the only thing in the obj-test directory before applying that patch is '.gitignore' so why wouldn't it be removed like obj/test and obj/nogui?
mod6: maybe the best option is to add a one line shell script that just does: `find . -name ".gitignore" -exec rm '{}' \;`
mod6: that'll leave the dirs in place
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 107450 @ 0.00053397 = 57.3751 BTC [-] {4}
decimation: "Yahoo disclosed last week that African Americans made up just 2 percent of its workers, while Hispanics stood at 4 percent. Those revelations came days after Facebook reported that in 2014 it had employed just 81 blacks among its 5,500 U.S. workers."
assbot: The lulz of today, or "you think it's only some kids that will exhaust their resources soon?" on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... (
http://bit.ly/1TKLzL8 )
decimation: also, I don't know what the 'web 2.0' thing he posted a picture of is? is that some kind of dns control panel?
☟︎ decimation: the amusing thing to me is that the 'ddos cannon' is using dns
☟︎ decimation: but I too am curious how disabling qntra's dns while clobbering random bystanders helps anybody
decimation: I suppose it kinda has to use dns to defeat trival remappings
decimation: at any rate, it does seem that the 'content distribution network' approach is the only one that seems to hold up against this kinda crap
decimation: granted, it's expensive to build and maintain, but it was kinda baked into the way the internet works
decimation: why not take the 'pay per page' subscription model one step further? 'pay to route' pakets, in btc?
jurov: and routers verifying sigs for 1e6 packets/sec , rly?
☟︎ decimation: you could put a packet counter pretty easily
decimation: automation could talk & update router regularly
jurov: everyone does spoofed ips
decimation: now, the scammer could discover a 'credited ip' and run down its account
decimation: asciilifeform: well, I agree with that too
decimation: but remember how it was rejected as being 'too friendly to third parties'
jurov: asciilifeform: how would that cheap 1e6/sec sig verificating router look?
decimation: jurov: yeah it would need to be done in custom logic
decimation: jurov: to be fair, cisco does the same thing (custom logic in router)
jurov: of course, but cisco just moves bits and does not do crypto
☟︎ decimation: asciilifeform: how could you route if the destination were encrypted?
jurov: but if you check sigs at destination, then you haven't solved ddos at all
jurov: they need to be checked at places where do 1e6 pkt/sec flow
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39000 @ 0.0005763 = 22.4757 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: any asic that comes even close to that? ecdsa/2048RSA?
decimation: probably could go to opencores right now and find a crypto block
jurov: we can do asics that easily do 1e6*1e5 operations per second ?
jurov: (ecdsa is on order of 1e5)
jurov: dear decimation these ddoses have tens or hundreds gigabits... and not with 1500 byt packets
☟︎ phf: build FIDO on top of gossipd ;)
jurov: but i understood it will be built on ip anyway
decimation: which is roughly the position we are all in, failing to have $$ mil networks
decimation: jurov: why does qntra need more than 1 gigabit
jurov: what if there are million wolves and you must check their sigs?
jurov: decimation: it does not need gigabit!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10400 @ 0.00057699 = 6.0007 BTC [+]
jurov: but if you get gigawolves via ip arriginv, how are you getting sheep through?
jurov: how does the gate look? like tor enter node?
jurov: ah that i wanted to know
decimation: I think ascii is proposing something like tor except everyone knows everyone else, and routes accordingly
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18100 @ 0.00057699 = 10.4435 BTC [+]
phf: it's more fidonet with crypto handshakes
☟︎ decimation: back in the day, ham radio folks used to run something much like fidonet except completely over shortwave/vhf radio
decimation: as I recall his objection is that he didn't want third parties to be able to easily glean identites from packets
phf: and you want it to be fully stateless?
decimation: yeah I didn't recall the encrypted part being mentioned before
decimation: yeah I was more interested in the argument that generated it
decimation: my earlier proposal of 'charging per packet routed' is a jungle way of implementing this
decimation: I see ip has here to stay forever, because of the $$ bil it would cost to do otherwise
mircea_popescu: anyway, wanted to see i can first take down random sites with it
decimation: you did force the attacker to lay down one card
mircea_popescu: 23.45.18.92 pings just fine. honestly it'd be sad if it didn't.
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 18:26:59; asciilifeform: i've been waiting to hear somebody describe ~some~, even very theoretical, down side for those
mircea_popescu: apparently either there's none or everyone else in bitcoin is just watching tv.
assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 18:34:53; mod6: but now I'm scared that even if i /do/ remove them by hand, they might get accidentially pruned by a downstream patch (later in time) causing the makefile to puke.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34200 @ 0.00057753 = 19.7515 BTC [+] {3}
decimation: asciilifeform: in this way you can see how the internet 'as is' is doomed to some degree
decimation: no, I would argue that the benefits accrue to specific corporations
decimation: for instance, spam drives everyone to big isp mail hosts, gmail, etc - not only for spam protection but also for 'web of trust'
decimation: 'web of trust' in this case being the poorly done implmentations of smtp routing
mircea_popescu: decimation riddle me this : you don't like reading dumb "newspapers", but how many good ones were sunk by exactly this before you heard of them ?
mircea_popescu: the process ensures everyone has to swim in the same pisspool.
decimation: the pre-digital version was expecting some kind of handout/human attenion being paid to a stranger
decimation: similarly, the 'ddos attackers' end up driving everyone to akamai, etc
decimation: virii/malware benefit mcaffee and usg's 'cyber' budget
decimation: asciilifeform: I predict the bitcoin version will be resolved with some kind of central transaction clearhouse monopoly, sadly
decimation: satoshi was being dumb when he failed to program payments for caching
decimation: umm, didn't you just complain about the orphan problem?
decimation: but someone still needs to hold transactions until they 'clear'
decimation: mempool in this case being the gigantic c++ 'map' that holds transactions in memory?
phf: re: orphanage, i'm still investigating, but there's no reason why we can't have a better initial sync block handoff strategy, that doesn't get stock, because some parent in an orphanage subchain failed to get sent out
decimation: I suppose my point (central clearinghouse) is that I foresee some entity like akamai that will 'magic away' this problem for miners, who will all pay for the service
decimation: yes, but you would agree that building such a network with an eye toward minimizingn latency everywhere would be expensive
☟︎ decimation: because miners are gonna want max fees with min latency
jurov: it's not hard for every node to advertise addy for caching fees
☟︎ jurov: only needs wallet that creates N copies of the tx with N addresses
decimation: jurov, what is 'N'? the length of the cache?
phf: asciilifeform: it's not a permanent stuck, but a slowdown. i haven't sent out that orphanage graph that i posted some time ago, because i'm still kicking shit around, but the beahior that you can see from it, is that blocks are sent out as multiple subchains. when a subchain arrives that's missing a parent subchain, it gets rejected many times over and over, until parent subchain is filled in. i think the behavior can be improved by
phf: mucking around with the code that desides what blocks to send to a requesting client
decimation: yeah that's kinda what I'm hinting at I guess
decimation: jurov: I was envision the miners paying for your caches, on the assumption that most folks won't want to pay a third party to clearn bitcoin
jurov: most people are not interesting here
decimation: yeah, it's a fair point. that point has been made
decimation: even in the fiat world, actual people transmitting actual money would expect to pay
phf: asciilifeform: well, i wouldn't say "trivial", but yes
decimation: asciilifeform: was that taken at a zoo?
decimation: heh. I admit part of me wants to journey to the falkland islands to see the gentoos
phf: asciilifeform: of course the easiest option is to add a new network command, that does a sane request for initial block chain parts, but i think it can still be done within the framework of current sync model
decimation: phf you are thinking 'give me block #N'?
decimation: asciilifeform: what if you have an ongoing fork?
decimation: I suppose the serving node still has some idea of what block N is
phf: where N is the hash or the height?
decimation: actually such a command would be very useful for a 'fork detector'
phf: well, that's certainly a way to cut gordian knot
ag3nt_zer0: I am trying to enter my public key at nosuchlabs.com but am getting an internal server error
phf: at which point do you stop doing get block # and switch back to current sync process? or never?
ag3nt_zer0: am i supposed to enter the entire text file, including ---Begin Public Key Block----, or just the string of shit? sorry don't know the technical term...
assbot: Logged on 02-05-2014 21:23:21; asciilifeform: instead, there are tanks of co2 chained to poles here and there
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21630 @ 0.00057881 = 12.5197 BTC [+]
punkman: mod6: ben reminded me to add a patch that removes the 5 .gitignore files. << I dunno why patch was needed for this, just remove them manually in next release
punkman: asciilifeform: I don't really have a theory. are we sure that nuked orphanage can't cause more wedges?
phf: i think maybe getblocks already works like "get block N" where n is block height. client sends out his top block on a chain, and server responds with a sequences (?) of blocks from then on
punkman: do they have liquid nitrogen in other US cities?
punkman: seems expensive to maintain
punkman: I have never seen any such thing in europe, perhaps they hide them
punkman: guess it's cheaper than digging out shitty cables and replacing them
punkman: don't fiber bundles have copper sometimes?
punkman: optically pumped repeaters? that sounds interesting
Naphex: that cam on stick thing
mod6: <+punkman> mod6: ben reminded me to add a patch that removes the 5 .gitignore files. << I dunno why patch was needed for this, just remove them manually in next release << yeah, i mentioned that after the fact lastnight. but was discussed here:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206370 << this makes sense.
☝︎ assbot: Logged on 19-07-2015 18:34:53; mod6: but now I'm scared that even if i /do/ remove them by hand, they might get accidentially pruned by a downstream patch (later in time) causing the makefile to puke.
mod6: <+mod6> so... yah, a bash script or removal by hand. would be fine i'd think. but now i gotta test it a bit harder. if we leave empty directories in there, im worred that patch might come along at a later time and be helpful again, removing those object output diretories. << so if i do remove them by hand, have to ensure that these empty dirs wont get nuked later on accident
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [BTR] 980 @ 0.00111 = 1.0878 BTC
punkman: mod6, nuke the empty dirs, have the build script or makefile create them when it needs them?
mod6: sure there are other options. nothing quite as simple as "just blow away the .gitignore files"
decimation: every rf guy knows noise = k*temp*bandwidth
decimation: it's odd that they would use nitrogen instead of dry air machine
decimation: maybe they need high pressure or something
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41350 @ 0.00057956 = 23.9648 BTC [+] {4}
decimation: Con Ed in New York City puts 160 L dewars on the street and uses the
decimation: cold gas to cool transformer vaults in the summer. The Dewars sit on
decimation: yeah apparently they also use the expansion of the gas to cool the lines next to hot steam, etc
decimation: heh yeah pretty much. 'oh we installed shit on top of shit, what kind of bandaids can we use to keep the mess running rather than investing in fixing the problem?'
decimation: it's not unlike the ddos/spam problem mentioned earlier - each entity sees the street and sewer vaults as a zone to stuff shit for 'free'
ben_vulpes: mod6: re gitkeeps do we even know why those empty dirs are necessary for a succesful compile?
☟︎ ben_vulpes: i've been able to get on the computer for maybe 10 minutes max at a stretch over the past few days, or i'd take a crack at it myself and figure it out
phf: ben_vulpes: because makefile.unix expects them, (search for obj/nogui/%.o: %.cpp, etc.)
ben_vulpes: so instead of duct taping the thing together perhaps fix the makefile?
phf: it's totally a makefile.unix artifact, since building with cmake/clang works without them
ben_vulpes: phf later i'll want to pick your brain about compiling boost under clang/os x
ben_vulpes: i am clearly not elite enough to set my own priorities, otherwise i'd be down on the beach with a margarita and my laptop
jurov: beach+laptop=onoes
decimation: but macports appears to want to use clang
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21298 @ 0.00058075 = 12.3688 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47400 @ 0.00055534 = 26.3231 BTC [-] {2}
decimation: ^ typical solution to 'tragedy of the commons' problem
decimation: or rather this: " Spain’s Ministry of Defence is said to be interested in introducing measures that will prevent drones flying in high-security zones following initiatives in London and Paris."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10127 @ 0.00055476 = 5.6181 BTC [-]
punkman: decimation: lol "measures"
mod6: <+phf> ben_vulpes: because makefile.unix expects them, (search for obj/nogui/%.o: %.cpp, etc.) << ben_vulpes yeah this stuff
☟︎ mod6: <+asciilifeform> we will need more, more of these. << indeed
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15000 @ 0.00058075 = 8.7113 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93350 @ 0.00055475 = 51.7859 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20704 @ 0.00058075 = 12.0238 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26309 @ 0.00058098 = 15.285 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27565 @ 0.00058239 = 16.0536 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1871 @ 0.00058339 = 1.0915 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14547 @ 0.00056253 = 8.1831 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69203 @ 0.00055148 = 38.1641 BTC [-] {2}
mod6: i've tried this thing 48 ways from sunday. context diff, unified, truncated files, removed files with/without -E smh