mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you got a link to that hacking course thing that was crypto oriented ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: can remember more specific ?
mircea_popescu: i been looking for it magically can't find it. the one that had the rsa break in the last fascicle
artifexd: Book purchased.
asciilifeform: !s pollard rho
assbot: 1 results for 'pollard rho' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=pollard+rho
asciilifeform: damn, thought it might have been in that thread
mircea_popescu: nono it was a course, you were supposed to email your results
asciilifeform: hm
asciilifeform: i definitely remember that this existed.
artifexd: http://cryptopals.com/
assbot: The Matasano Crypto Challenges ... ( http://bit.ly/1E8npC3 )
asciilifeform: artifexd found it.
mircea_popescu: there we go!
asciilifeform: ty
artifexd: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-08-2014#792968 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 12-08-2014 15:50:28; artifexd: http://cryptopals.com/ <- some nice lessons teaching how crypto works, how to attack it, and how easy it is to screw it up
mircea_popescu: stupid fucking name. anyway, towards the end there's some good foundational stuff. perhaps not directly useful for the purpose at hand, but very good to get your head swiveled in the right position
mircea_popescu: re crypto vulnerability.
mircea_popescu: lol it was HIS link ?
mircea_popescu: ahjahaha
asciilifeform: bleichenbacher's oracle, in particular
artifexd: I will pause coding to read "Malicious Crypto" and finish the course. I'll report back when I'm done and made a decision re: golang's crypto libraries.
asciilifeform: http://repo.hackerzvoice.net/depot_madchat/vxdevl/avtech/Malicious%20Cryptography%20-%20Exposing%20Cryptovirology.pdf
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1E8ol9L )
asciilifeform: ^ w4r3z
asciilifeform: http://repo.hackerzvoice.net/depot_madchat/vxdevl/avtech << many classic and otherwise interesting pieces
assbot: Index of /depot_madchat/vxdevl/avtech ... ( http://bit.ly/1E8oslC )
asciilifeform: http://repo.hackerzvoice.net/depot_madchat/vxdevl/interviews << interviews with old-school crapware artists, somewhat interesting zoology
assbot: Index of /depot_madchat/vxdevl/interviews ... ( http://bit.ly/1E8ozxA )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40600 @ 0.00044297 = 17.9846 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50187 @ 0.00044223 = 22.1942 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47000 @ 0.00043747 = 20.5611 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37413 @ 0.00043704 = 16.351 BTC [-] {3}
asciilifeform: ';Urko is a dog. Urko is one of my best friends. Urko is a fantastic dog becoz sometimes..... Urko SPEAKS! Urko is very timid and only speaks to me...and not always...urko only speaks when both,urko and me,we start to smoke that rare cigarretes that urko has. Then urko start to speak a lot of :) and we stay all night speaking,smoking and seeing films orplaying trivial pursuit,or coding,or doing a lot of things :)'
asciilifeform: (source: http://repo.hackerzvoice.net/depot_madchat/vxdevl/vxsrc/Win32/win32.Urk0/win32.Urk0.asm )
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1uauQsn )
asciilifeform: next time contemplating the raving insanity of 'reddit' bitcoin users, etc. - read these.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34624 @ 0.00043262 = 14.979 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48500 @ 0.0004291 = 20.8114 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13876 @ 0.00042036 = 5.8329 BTC [-] {2}
asciilifeform often wonders what happened to those people.
mircea_popescu: sounds like that much acid.
asciilifeform: evidently not too much acid, because - they ran.
mircea_popescu: ballmer's constant, but for acid.
asciilifeform: where are these kids now.
asciilifeform: can't all be dead.
mircea_popescu: sheeit!
kakobrekla: anyway, the wot has been forked into assbot and is running now
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: congrats !
mircea_popescu: yay
kakobrekla: that means we are no longer depended on gribble
kakobrekla: and some changes have been made.
asciilifeform: are these synchro-forks or fork-forks ?
kakobrekla: as ascii pointe out, session is bad so there is no more that.
kakobrekla: each auth worth command gets own otp
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the idea is to import gribble's wot but mark it as gribble's, and allow others to import assbot's wot.
kakobrekla: worthy*
mircea_popescu: i'll get on nano's case to see if he's willing to put it all into gribble.
kakobrekla: for example, i have upped myself via pm, yet;
kakobrekla: !rate mircea_popescu -10 scammer
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/1f7f6d235233d678
mircea_popescu: o yay
mircea_popescu: duuude...
asciilifeform: neato!
kakobrekla: !verify assbot:kakobrekla.rate.mircea_popescu.-10:61751f23d45137825f4ecd78de4a6afb42d01c5d9c6b802b6ec6f4b135e47504
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mircea_popescu from 3 to -10 with note: scammer
mircea_popescu: this is almost as if someone sat down and thought about it.
kakobrekla: !rate mircea_popescu 5 good fella
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/d625cacf59990e9f
kakobrekla: !v assbot:kakobrekla.rate.mircea_popescu.5:1676039169b957f6a18439b6daeade5919887f01b82d832f7b01e7e97885216c
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for mircea_popescu from -10 to 5 with note: good fella
kakobrekla: !rated mircea_popescu
assbot: You rated user mircea_popescu on 16-Dec-2012, with a rating of 5, and supplied these additional notes: good fella.
kakobrekla: !gettrust mircea_popescu
assbot: Trust relationship from user kakobrekla to user mircea_popescu: Level 1: 5, Level 2: 47 via 31 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/kakobrekla/mircea_popescu | http://w.b-a.link/user/mircea_popescu
kakobrekla: !gettrust assbot mircea_popescu
assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user mircea_popescu: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 27 via 27 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/assbot/mircea_popescu | http://w.b-a.link/user/mircea_popescu
mircea_popescu: fcking hell ?!
kakobrekla: there is also !unrate and !changekey
mircea_popescu: ok this is like splendid
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: how does changekey work ?
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla can it have another field, the user json ?
mircea_popescu: [source] =>
mircea_popescu: with possible values "Gribble" "Assbot" so far ?
kakobrekla: !changekey CB39A1B24F01ADE0A597552D70C68A9048079D7A
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/9493f77dcc359a13
kakobrekla: !v assbot:kakobrekla.changekey.cb39a1b24f01ade0a597552d70c68a9048079d7a:f08dfbbdc1e3292ded6d3e8072857f50c284aa922832b4329354bd5cb54b45c7
assbot: Key 48079D7A / "test test <test@test>" successfully imported.
assbot: New key fingerprint for kakobrekla is: CB39A1B24F01ADE0A597552D70C68A9048079D7A
kakobrekla: !changekey 27C3CE9A20851312F086268C27AF75321F2489E8
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/5fcd835b15264557
kakobrekla: !v assbot:kakobrekla.changekey.27c3ce9a20851312f086268c27af75321f2489e8:bfef481697fe5e3612c388f8d894f2d1d624e57cf99c1545f9a65b98ce076a62
assbot: No changes, key already exists.
kakobrekla: bah!
kakobrekla: imm just hax this manually.
kakobrekla: asciilifeform satisfactory answer ?
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: neato!
kakobrekla: mircea_popescu what do you mean 'source' ?
kakobrekla: what is the value of source
PeterL: I did it!
kakobrekla: cool
kakobrekla: ah forgot to mention, otps can be executed out of order, but they are valid only for 15 min
kakobrekla: and you dont have to be on chan to use it.
kakobrekla: also if we downrate someone to l2=0 you should be able to !down immediately now, although i havent tested it.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla as in, if the rating was given via here, or imported from gribble's db
kakobrekla: ah that
kakobrekla: i guess i can add tat.
kakobrekla: that
mircea_popescu: would be useful. then we have gribble-assbot talk to each other via diffs
mircea_popescu: and both can display both.
kakobrekla: ah and another detail, if you noticed there is no place to specify your 'wot' nick
kakobrekla: which means you irc nick is your wot nick
kakobrekla: or shit wont fly.
mircea_popescu: right.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40400 @ 0.00042168 = 17.0359 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: !rated kakobrekla
assbot: You rated user kakobrekla on 03-Mar-2013, with a rating of 5, and supplied these additional notes: too much stuff to list. inquire within..
mircea_popescu: ah i'm so happy :D
kakobrekla: yeah your political strike was totally worth it.
mircea_popescu: defo.
PeterL: so the link is different every time?
kakobrekla: yes
kakobrekla: you can request 10 commands, take them all at once to airgap
kakobrekla: do the jizlle and bring them back
kakobrekla: well 10 = n
mircea_popescu: yeah the old way had the advantage of automation, but this has the more significant advantage of airgap
kakobrekla: just an example.
mircea_popescu: heh, too slow eh
kakobrekla: is it so hard to read off the link?
mircea_popescu: nop.
kakobrekla: i could do /otps/$nick and list active ones
kakobrekla: if it helps.
danielpbarron: maybe make the voice one always use the same url?
mircea_popescu: can't hurt. leave all these for a 2nd version down the road.
mircea_popescu: do as a batch
PeterL: having the same for voice would make it so our scripts from gribble would be easily convirtable
danielpbarron: does upping and downing others require auth?
kakobrekla: voice is sessioned
mircea_popescu: !down danielpbarron
mircea_popescu: works fine
kakobrekla: !up Adlai
kakobrekla: !down Adlai
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo / cazalla pls to write-up this truly momentuous development.
cazalla: i have birthday guests in the next 30m so if BingoBoingo can otherwise i'll catch up on logs this evening and write up whatever it is that needs doing
mircea_popescu: o hey, happy bday.
danielpbarron: i especially like how changekey now requires auth
cazalla: mircea_popescu, not mine, my son's first birthday :)
mircea_popescu: gribble does too neh ?
mircea_popescu: cazalla even more yours then!
danielpbarron: nope
mircea_popescu: ...
cazalla: not really, these 20 odd people are going to mess up my clean home :\
danielpbarron: if i'm session authed with gribble and someone hacks my irc, they can change my key
cazalla: anyway.. shower time and then to play host and patriarch, bbl
danielpbarron: i figured that was why you always logged out when not chatting
asciilifeform: the changekey thing leaves something to be desired.
asciilifeform: if i want to change keys, i should have to specifically sign a message to that effect.
asciilifeform: or is that how it already works, nm.
danielpbarron: that's how it now works
asciilifeform: aha.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29700 @ 0.00043393 = 12.8877 BTC [+] {2}
PeterL: does assbot log ratings changes anywhere?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70150 @ 0.00041356 = 29.0112 BTC [-] {6}
kakobrekla: whats next, a nuclear sub delivered 2 days before your order while paying you 500$?
kakobrekla: but could be done.
kakobrekla: !rate assbot 10 test
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/f4c7a7785fd43f96
mircea_popescu: lol nucular soob!
mircea_popescu: !rated assbot
assbot: You rated user assbot on 12-Apr-2014, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: Nice ass & face bot..
mircea_popescu: !rate assbot 10 Nuclear sub delivered 2 days before order while paying me $500
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/08d27186c6ed6b39
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla totallyput a \n after otps
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.assbot.10:e33f37ce0c6349c2ff073951a8cd8907102c1ccbe4996cad4061ed1e6fc1d310
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for assbot from 1 to 10 with note: Nuclear sub delivered 2 days before order while paying me $500
kakobrekla: !rate assbot 10 test
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/46ae34a617b1519d
kakobrekla: !rate assbot 10 test
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/ec89a1090cd1b971
mircea_popescu: http://33.media.tumblr.com/aa4d42e55dc9d8cd59ee2249f05f5de0/tumblr_n5a2vslCDP1sa3bwyo1_500.gif
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/14LoDXt )
kakobrekla: http://w.b-a.link/otps/kakobrekla/
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/14LoQK4 )
kakobrekla: here bitches. static link.
mircea_popescu: most recent ?
kakobrekla: o wait i have to encrypt those.
mircea_popescu: ah json. werx.
kakobrekla: ah links ?
kakobrekla: ok
kakobrekla: ill put links
mircea_popescu: yeh links prolly easier, oner per line
mircea_popescu: people can go curl http://w.b-a.link/otps/kakobrekla/ | curl | gpg
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/14LpEPa )
mircea_popescu: perhaps with some awk thrown in
kakobrekla: http://w.b-a.link/otps/kakobrekla/
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/14LpXcT )
kakobrekla: thar fixd
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo / cazalla pls to write-up this truly momentuous development. << lemme catch up on what the news is and I'll hammer something out.
asciilifeform: http://www.metzdowd.com/pipermail/cryptography/2013-November/018670.html << somehow missed this
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/14LqRWD )
asciilifeform: (for crypto aficionados ^)
asciilifeform: vaguely credible evidence that usg puts to use ecc internally, but no suggestion of with what curves.
asciilifeform: alternatively, elaborate desinfo.
kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-01-2015#979842 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 17-01-2015 00:48:07; mircea_popescu: [source] =>
kakobrekla: done ^^
kakobrekla: i dared to manually alter source of your rating here http://w.b-a.link/user/assbot
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/14LtUya )
kakobrekla: others will be assbot sourced automatically from now on.
kakobrekla: btw this line kept going through my head while coding
kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-01-2015#967758 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 07-01-2015 04:03:56; asciilifeform: trust is simply an obsolete, pre-scientific word.
kakobrekla: but then i forgot to ask wtf am i to do.
kakobrekla: still open to changes if needs be.
BingoBoingo: Who all collborated on asswot? Did you do it all kakobrekla?
kakobrekla: myea
BingoBoingo: K
mircea_popescu: splendor
mircea_popescu: so ima send a btc to assbot's 1B6NP9eb4RKy9tRrXYCJnNcenZkrt5Q2gb
mircea_popescu: further contributions encouraged!
thestringpuller: is it open source?
mircea_popescu: trust is good. what, fucking is also an obsolete, pre-scientific word. slides right down nevertheless.
scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by Bingo Boingo: http://qntra.net/2015/01/assbot-gains-web-of-trust-functionality/
BingoBoingo: ^ And on that note I'm headed out for a bit.
kakobrekla: ty
kakobrekla: updated the welcome message (took out gribble part) and removed ddos warning , i think its gone again?
artifexd: Snowden worked at the NSA until June 2013. GPG 1.4.13 was committed on 2012-12-20. GPG 1.4.14 was committed on 2013-07-25.d
artifexd: mircea_popescu: 1.4.13 is acceptable and 1.4.14 is not, correct?
kakobrekla: hows that ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37657 @ 0.00043023 = 16.2012 BTC [+]
kakobrekla: snowden broke gpg somehow ?
artifexd: I believe the point is that Snowden didn't say gpg was compromised. However it could have been compromised since he left. Only mircea_popescu knows mircea_popescu's motivation for that spec though.
asciilifeform: there is always the option of actually studying the changelog.
asciilifeform: not a bad idea in any case
artifexd: That is what I'm looking at right now.
artifexd: http://git.gnupg.org/cgi-bin/gitweb.cgi?p=gnupg.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/STABLE-BRANCH-1-4
assbot: git.gnupg.org Git - gnupg.git/shortlog ... ( http://bit.ly/14LB1Xd )
kakobrekla: its not like changelog will say "hax was inserted here"
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: lol
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41550 @ 0.00042089 = 17.488 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: artifexd it's not a strict thing, more like a general consideration. i doubt they managed to react fast enough to do much to 4.14
mircea_popescu: anyway, the point is that gpg was widely used for the snowden leaks. this indicates that a major player trusted it, and was right in so doing ; and suggests a major target for that reason alone.
kakobrekla: meh snowden leaks could just as well be disinfo
mircea_popescu: i know for a fact the usg did not know what was in the leaks until their press agents told em
mircea_popescu: anything could be anything. but my arbitrary sez no.
kakobrekla does the sexygingers dance
asciilifeform: re: disinfo: http://imgur.com/dXtnSoJ
assbot: disinfo - Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/14LFDN3 )
asciilifeform: seems like pretty obvious case thereof.
undata: asciilifeform: apparently this google device on my desk is impenetrable. who knew
undata: I'll stop worrying when it automatically opts me back into location history tracking
asciilifeform: if that slide deck is genuine, i've a bridge to sell.
mircea_popescu: zrtp bs.
asciilifeform: incidentally, z is for zimmerman.
asciilifeform: who, by all indications, was swallowed some time ago.
mircea_popescu: myea
asciilifeform: in my diseased mind, the parsimonious hypothesis is that there is actually an nsa where that deck was genuinely crapped out by earnest monkeys who believe every word.
asciilifeform: (and that there is another one, where it wasn't. but i think we did this one before)
asciilifeform would like to see the -other- slide deck.
asciilifeform: or perhaps -those- folks don't go in for 'powerpoint.'
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you find it interesting that, despite the legend of snowden having used gpg, we have no signatures from him pertaining to any of the material ?
asciilifeform: he could easily, if he wished, demonstrate what the genuine material was, and what has been doctored or made up wholesale.
asciilifeform: this is assuming that we have a reasonably certain copy of his pubkey pre-dating the events. which, iirc, we do.
thestringpuller: decentralized bitbet?
thestringpuller: http://augur.link/augur.pdf
danielpbarron: such a thing is not possible; there needs to be an arbiter to decide if a bet has resolved yes or no
thestringpuller: but that's what oracles are for
asciilifeform: 'A key feature of Augur is tradeable Reputation. The total amount of Reputation is a fixed quantity, determined upon the launch of Augur. Holding Reputation entitles its owner to report on the outcomes of events, after the events occur. Reputation tokens are similar in other respects to Bitcoins: they are divisible to eight decimal places, they are accounted for by summing over unspent transaction outputs, and they can be sent
asciilifeform: between users.'
asciilifeform: ^ lol!
asciilifeform: srsly ?
thestringpuller: danielpbarron is in party. regenerate 5 hp per turn. :D
thestringpuller: caise ypi
thestringpuller: cause you're a crypto priest*
danielpbarron: decentralized bitbet like counterparty is decentralized mpex; just replaces the infrastructure (with something worse)
asciilifeform: i'm not averse to seeing actual solutions to 'decentralized xxxxx,' but they inevitably fall short re: 'democracy-proofing'
asciilifeform: who wants democracy pus in his meal ?
thestringpuller: !s democracy-proofing
assbot: 0 results for 'democracy-proofing' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=democracy-proofing
thestringpuller: care to elaborate sir asciilifeform ?
thestringpuller: or is it Dr. asciilifeform
asciilifeform: aka sybil, dos, etc. attacks
asciilifeform: !s sybil
assbot: 34 results for 'sybil' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=sybil
asciilifeform: there we go.
thestringpuller: how does that prevent democracy? (a sybil attack)?
asciilifeform: the basic idea is that meat puppets are not in any fundamental way different from other types of puppet.
asciilifeform: and must be dealt with through same mechanisms.
asciilifeform: the 'tradeable reputation' thing sounds disastrous.
asciilifeform: perhaps i'm just thick.
thestringpuller: ah. i understand your viewpoint tho.
thestringpuller: it all depends on volume of puppet imo.
thestringpuller: or maybe everyone is a puppet of some sort. that's a little beyond me tho
asciilifeform: in point of fact, even our system of reputation (wot) is theoretically 'tradeable', in that somebody could - in principle - sell his privkey to satan
danielpbarron: of course it's disastrous; it's like giving the -otc folk power based on their total rating score (which they build up through trivial deals)
asciilifeform: but baking tradeability in as a matter of course - is another thing
asciilifeform: lunacy, imho
thestringpuller: isn't this classic dilemma of selling soul for some benefit/value
thestringpuller: you only have one to trade.
asciilifeform: which they build up through trivial deals << aha. this is actually an age-old plague on 'ebay' and the like.
thestringpuller: tis also irreverisble in nature.
asciilifeform: sc4mz0r cultivates rating with 100,000 'a+++++ gr34t d34lz'
asciilifeform: of fivebux each
asciilifeform: then proceeds to sell, e.g., nonexisting cars.
danielpbarron: the joke in otc is "Smooth TM"
thestringpuller: this is how athero was able to launch ziggap
thestringpuller: he sold shares in non existant broker bitcoin selling thing compan
thestringpuller: y
thestringpuller: ;;gettrust aethero
gribble: WARNING: Currently not authenticated. Trust relationship from user thestringpuller to user aethero: Level 1: -1, Level 2: 0 via 3 connections. Graph: http://b-otc.com/stg?source=thestringpuller&dest=aethero | WoT data: http://b-otc.com/vrd?nick=aethero | Rated since: Wed May 2 19:24:52 2012
danielpbarron: what with all the hard fork drama, i'd say anything that can be kept centralized should probably remain centralized
thestringpuller: danielpbarron: i think the hardfork drama is fundamentally seeing split, or cold war in bitcoin
thestringpuller: east vs. west.
thestringpuller: capitalist vs. socialist
thestringpuller: etc.
asciilifeform: i have said before that an official usg altcoin is inevitable.
asciilifeform: gavincoin's probably it.
thestringpuller: yet we'll still pay taxes in bezzles?
asciilifeform: thestringpuller: gavincoin is not made to replace usd, but to bleed bitcoin
thestringpuller: ofc, but USG coin that is used to also do what? annoy us out of our money like some comcast nonsenese?
asciilifeform: you will have to ask the fellow who thought it up
asciilifeform: once he sits down on mircea_popescu's stake.
asciilifeform: perhaps he'll do a q&a
danielpbarron: "I am slowely being impaled on a sharped stake. Ask me anything."
asciilifeform: !b 5
assbot: Last 5 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0VE53AD.txt )
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: I do not see how anyone will contribute to usgavincoin when Buterin's waterfall explodes right after inception.
thestringpuller: Spend X money to build hoover dam and it explodes less than a year while runnign?
asciilifeform: seems clear that they'll pour the water on the other side.
asciilifeform: not on their own. (of the fork)
thestringpuller: But isn't this like someone trying to power a water wheel by simply running up stream with buckets of water they collect downstream?
asciilifeform: collected.
asciilifeform: or rather, robbed.
danielpbarron: there are plenty of people who are so focused on "mass adoption" as a priority that they will compromise any and all aspects of bitcoin to further that goal; what would get more mass adoption than endorsement from USG?
thestringpuller: It's still non-trivial effort tho, to run long term
thestringpuller: and wasteful. like fast explosion vs slow ember
thestringpuller: at least in my mind
asciilifeform: i'm not seeing any serious evidence of 'long-term' thinking on usg's part.
thestringpuller: i can only imagine poor peon running up stream trying to keep water wheel moving
asciilifeform: i can easily picture an 'atomic war' where every btc which usg has at some point begged, borrowed, stole, or can prevail upon a vassal to give up control of - will be placed on market in a 'last hurrah'
thestringpuller: danielpbarron: re: mass adoption << I always felt people wanted mass adoption so price raises.
thestringpuller: Which is perverted thinking at best.
thestringpuller: starving marvin in kenya buys a bitcoin with his 50000 kenyan shillings he saved up over the course of 5 years...
danielpbarron: i don't think they are so rational; i suspect it has more to do with "going viral" like a clever youtube video, and having been in on it before it was trendy
danielpbarron: although 2014 might have put an end to that
thestringpuller: i never understood when going viral became the equivalent of becoming valuable...
asciilifeform: from the standpoint of vermin - yes, valuable
asciilifeform: all vermin envy the virus.
thestringpuller: black plague for all?
thestringpuller: but in all srsns, i thought the "popularity contest" died out by the end of high school
thestringpuller: now it seems the popularity contest is "the thing"
thestringpuller: 22:13 <+asciilifeform> i have said before that an official usg altcoin is
thestringpuller: ^- my bad. copy paste is bad with this one
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: (and that there is another one, where it wasn't. but i think we did this one before) << like 5 or 7 times.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron: such a thing is not possible; there needs to be an arbiter to decide if a bet has resolved yes or no << easier to "invent" stuff than understand stuff. just like it's easier to write new code than understand coding.
mircea_popescu: "whenever misreporting an event is worth more to your stake than it costs to buy back the lost reputation, you misreport the event. decentralized selective scamming ftw!"
mircea_popescu: "others will not readily understand how our implementation of 3 card monte is an implementation of 3 card monte, giving us an exploitable knowledge asymmetry - which makes this exactly an altcoin, which is why it's sensible to pretend we're like bitcoin"
mircea_popescu: etc
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller: this is how athero was able to launch ziggap << not a very good example. he had amassed trust over time, and likely at a higher cost than what he made out of it. the controlling factor there was "insane guy stopped taking his pills one day."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6100 @ 0.00041938 = 2.5582 BTC [-]
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: i couldn't find good example on top of head. but was jist of it received?
mircea_popescu: sure
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: gavincoin's probably it. << no. in typical fashion they're trying to play it "anonymously". ie, not official.
mircea_popescu: it really gets them the worst of both worlds, but hey, it's what committees get. no actual men there to take charge.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron: there are plenty of people who are so focused on "mass adoption" as a priority that they will compromise any and all aspects of bitcoin to further that goal; what would get more mass adoption than endorsement from USG? << it could become a new brand of tide.
mircea_popescu: "bitcoin is now a detergent. finally a commodity !!!"
asciilifeform: they're trying to play it "anonymously". ie, not official << with pretense every bit as thin as with 'tor'.
mircea_popescu: hence worst of both worlds.
xiando: I would prefer if they don't endorse that or anything and leave it alone.
mircea_popescu: nothing gets left alone.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47850 @ 0.00041938 = 20.0673 BTC [-]
xiando: I know, but I don't have to like it. :)
mircea_popescu: :p
mircea_popescu: hence the "leave britny alone" meme.
mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc
assbot: LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE! - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1C9dpcq )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58803 @ 0.00042896 = 25.2241 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: so there's a small statue in buenos aires with a san martin quote i absolutely love.
mircea_popescu: "De lo que mis granaderos son capaces, solo lo sé yo. Quien los iguale habrá. Quien los exceda - no."
mircea_popescu: "what my grenadiers are capable of, only I know. their equals might be found. their superiors - no."
mircea_popescu: http://www.accessatlanta.com/news/entertainment/celebrity-news/extreme-makeover-home-in-atlanta-in-foreclosure/nQx5J/ << who here lived in atlanta ? is this clinton-era-esque lulz legit ?
assbot: 'Extreme Makeover' home in Atlanta in foreclosure | www.accessatlanta.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1Cyqfz6 )
mircea_popescu: !up metsuno
mircea_popescu: ahh assbot, so nice to be back.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26924 @ 0.00045486 = 12.2467 BTC [+] {2}
hanbot: hooray for uberassbot
mircea_popescu: :)
mircea_popescu: anyone wanna do a 30 bux cc payment for me ?
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron ?
danielpbarron: cc not paypal?
danielpbarron: ya i guess
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45650 @ 0.00046921 = 21.4194 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: hory shit i had to pay half a tent of a bitcent in tx fees. HODL EVERYTHANG!!! MUST INCREASE BLOXSIZE PLOX!
mircea_popescu: !up decimation
mircea_popescu: !up dub
decimation: I find the 'go' rant amusing. Would asciilifeform similarly object to python? I believe it can run on mips
mircea_popescu: you hate go too ?
decimation: I wouldn't call it 'hate' as much as 'utterly uninterested'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23100 @ 0.00044949 = 10.3832 BTC [-]
decimation: I just can't imagine a future in which I will need to learn 'go' for work or pleasure
mircea_popescu: kinda my position too
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50422 @ 0.00047596 = 23.9989 BTC [+]
decimation: is this the paper in question? cryptome.org/2013/09/klepto-crypto.pdf
decimation: ah I see that link only has a few pages of the book
mircea_popescu: "Brothel for Slaking Intellectual Lusts" anyone here actually played planescape : torment ?
mircea_popescu: !up NomosOne
decimation: apparently usg has decided to greatly limit (not completely stop) civil forfeiture at the federal level
decimation: outgoing attorney general Holder wants to 'make a legacy'
mircea_popescu: no ?!
decimation: http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/holder-ends-seized-asset-sharing-process-that-split-billions-with-local-state-police/2015/01/16/0e7ca058-99d4-11e4-bcfb-059ec7a93ddc_story.html
assbot: Holder limits seized-asset sharing process that split billions with local, state police - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynDEMM )
mircea_popescu: seems more like a landgrab than anything ?
decimation: how so?
decimation: well, it certainly curtails one form of civil forfeiture at the federal level, leaving a vacuum that can be filled at the state level, if the states so desire
mircea_popescu: ah you're right. originally i read it as "we'll just keep more of it".
mircea_popescu: btw decimation assbot now allows wotization, pm it !up
asciilifeform: the 'vacuum' will be filled by theft and robbery from the same place as before.
asciilifeform: because how else.
mircea_popescu: in other news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/e9757a9deb4f50a25d868f26f4c3ab1d/tumblr_mvec3nySMa1s6dk4zo1_500.jpg was a great car.
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynEw3W )
ben_vulpes: did i crash assbot?
mircea_popescu: dun think so
ben_vulpes: nope. perhaps the otp machine?
ben_vulpes: what are the semantics for working with asswot?
asciilifeform: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/01/14/this-powerful-reddit-thread-reveals-how-the-poor-get-by-in-america << we've arrived at the end of the line. u.s. newspapers print articles concerning reddit threads.
assbot: This powerful Reddit thread reveals how the poor get by in America - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynFBc4 )
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell manamex you're joining channels and then applying your cloak. FYI.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19600 @ 0.00047268 = 9.2645 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47100 @ 0.00047621 = 22.4295 BTC [+] {2}
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes like in chan ? pm it !up it responds with otp, pm it !v otp
kakobrekla: !rate ben_vulpes test
assbot: Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.
kakobrekla: !rate ben_vulpes 1 test
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/7e95d1cb8e7c1075
kakobrekla: what do you mean it doesnt work ben_vulpes ?
ben_vulpes: that link refuses to resolve for me
mircea_popescu: yeah, scam error report.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71107 @ 0.00047967 = 34.1079 BTC [+] {3}
kakobrekla: ;;isup http://w.b-a.link/otp/5d95a96032e89e9e
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynGCB0 )
gribble: http://w.b-a.link/otp/5d95a96032e89e9e is up
ben_vulpes: https://www.refheap.com/96220
assbot: anonymous's paste: 96220 ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynGPEa )
mircea_popescu: PING ( 56(84) bytes of data.
mircea_popescu: 64 bytes from icmp_seq=1 ttl=49 time=252 ms
mircea_popescu: 64 bytes from icmp_seq=2 ttl=49 time=248 ms
mircea_popescu: l'etrange.
kakobrekla: yes my shit banned your shit.
mircea_popescu: ban shee!
ben_vulpes: mk
ben_vulpes: lmk if that changes, yeah?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform washington post = newspaper in the sense projects = neighbourhoods.
mircea_popescu: the hoods part, okay.
asciilifeform: then what newspaper remains in usa ?
mircea_popescu: hum.
mircea_popescu: i guess kinda blighted.
asciilifeform: wash. post is 'the other' nyt.
ben_vulpes: "newspaper" in the trad'l sense of "town rag" still exists in various municipalities. "grey lady", not so much.
mircea_popescu: more like the other Forward.
asciilifeform: these two fishwraps are almost always sold in bins together.
kakobrekla: try now ben_vulpes
ben_vulpes: ty kakobrekla
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu may be thinking of 'washington times
asciilifeform: '
mircea_popescu: i never heard of that one.
ben_vulpes: !rate kakobrekla 3 wot steward
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/190b6cfc995f06a2
asciilifeform: at any rate, the article is intensely lulzy
ben_vulpes: !v assbot:ben_vulpes.rate.kakobrekla.3:71dbfce4f8bb960b54b95894d306db892a6f30da3fc5776c31b3ef6f2f45b0c4
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 3 to 3 with note: wot steward
kakobrekla: works, cool
ben_vulpes: neat
decimation: alright works
kakobrekla: yeah im surprised myself
mircea_popescu: http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/05/08/wikipedia-kills-page-linking-obama-slogan-to-socialist-movement/ < < lawl.
assbot: Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynInhH )
mircea_popescu: apparently wikipedia deleted a page discussing the "forward" as a generic name for socialist publications after someone mocked obama for it.
decimation: asciilifeform: lol so apparently reddit is where bums hang out?
mircea_popescu: been saying that for a while!11
decimation: the other amusing point that the article fails to bring up: if the 'poor' must pay to live in a dense shitty city, why not move to the country?
asciilifeform: decimation: presumably, moving costs something
mircea_popescu: the poor flock to the city since the times of rabelais for the same reason : you can eat without working there.
mircea_popescu: not so in the country
decimation: if living off gov't checks anyway, wouldn't a trailer park somewhere stretch the bezzlars?
asciilifeform: decimation: another interesting fact re: usa is that rental properties are scarce to nonexistent when you walk out of the high-density areas
mircea_popescu: hmm, no testament in english ?
decimation: but the basic bitch here reminds me of something like 'heavier things are heavier'
decimation: of course someone with a spare $bil to invest in a sony movie (for example) will make $0.5 bil profit
asciilifeform: testament ?
decimation: having fifty bux means your investment options are limited to your own stomach
asciilifeform: 5k - also stomach
asciilifeform: and arguably likewise 50k.
decimation: yeah pretty much
mircea_popescu: you know you can buy stocks online these days on about 1k i think ?
asciilifeform: lol stocks
decimation: what are you gonna do? buy shares of wal-mart and hope they go up 100x?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31129 @ 0.00047521 = 14.7928 BTC [-]
asciilifeform: the cheapo stock houses make a killing by charging xx usd / trade
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform testament ? << http://damienbe.chez.com/testamen.htm
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynJtK5 )
ben_vulpes: i'll settle for 8%/year
mircea_popescu: decimation why 100x ? you proposed a 1bn - >1.5 bn deal.
asciilifeform: aha -that- testament
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform students (aka bums) in paris. right ?
mircea_popescu: why paris ?
decimation: even in that case, it's gonna take awhile before walmart stock goes from $1k to 1.5k
mircea_popescu: En l'an de mon trentiesme age, que toutes mes hontes j'euz beues, ne du tout fol, ne du tout saige non obstant maintes peines eues, lesquelles j'ay toutes receues soubz la main Thibault d'Aucigny ...
mircea_popescu: S'esvesque il est, signant les rues, qu'il soit le mien je le regny.
mircea_popescu: decimation films are some of the most risky investments out there you know.
decimation: yeah I'm using it as a somewhat poor example. my main point is that having $x mil to 'invest' allows one to bend over and pick up stuff that bums have no access to
mircea_popescu: i dispute this theory.
mircea_popescu: there is no significant advantage to size, and a serious problem to it.
mircea_popescu: buffett oft dwells on the matter : it's easy for krill to find a good meal, on account of being small. not so easy for whale.
asciilifeform: villon << http://flibusta.net/b/374344/download
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynJTjT )
asciilifeform: ^ ru translation
decimation: I suppose the principle at work here is that once one has $x, one finds no portion of x to be 'spare'
mircea_popescu: there's a decent english one by de verre
mircea_popescu: not sure if on the nets or not
mircea_popescu: decimation in any case spare works better at smaller size.
asciilifeform: rhyming translation ?
asciilifeform: (the linked one is also beautifully illustrated, as it happens)
mircea_popescu: essentially the principle being that you may find excellent "best actresses/cocksuckers", but not really "2nd best actresses/cocksuckers" in proportion.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> the cheapo stock houses make a killing by charging xx usd / trade << iirc it's about a dime/a quarter per lot, which lot is usually 1k shares, which can easily be 100k usd.
mircea_popescu: yes, much more than say the specialst pays (specialist doesn't pay). this is inconsequential.
ben_vulpes: https://www.robinhood.com/ << if you want to be front-run
assbot: Robinhood - Zero-Commission Stock Brokerage ... ( http://bit.ly/1ynKv8W )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the street where i live, just a year or so ago, was covered in ads '$7 / trade111!'
decimation: well, it would be a big deal if you day trade all day
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but i'm willing to believe that there are newer, more appealing chumpatrons
mircea_popescu: decimation a horrible deal. imagine all the noise you'd be pouring into the market.
asciilifeform: and they all front-run.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there are at least a dozen honest online brokerages.
mircea_popescu: to those, no doubt five million internet scams.
mircea_popescu: retail is SUPPOSED to be front run for crying out loud.
decimation: asciilifeform: sure, but you are generally talking about pennies per share
asciilifeform: at any rate, why would someone with no informational-asymmetric advantage want to buy stocks ?
mircea_popescu: to invest.
decimation: because that's where the trade bots put their earnings
mircea_popescu: to acquire a portion of the productively outlayed capital i nthe country.
ben_vulpes: <decimation> [] outgoing attorney general Holder wants to 'make a legacy' << just look for the "apparent pedophilia rate" as evidenced by "he had kiddie pr0nz" to go up.
asciilifeform: ^
decimation: yeah that will be interesting
decimation: suddenly everyone will be serious drug runner/terrorist/pedo
asciilifeform: or a sudden plague of 'illegal gun'
asciilifeform: (another exception in the new law)
ben_vulpes: everyone's trivially framed.
mircea_popescu: i read it thatthey may only confiscate the guns
mircea_popescu: but not the cars/cash.
decimation: in some states (illinois) you must register all your guns with the state
ben_vulpes: https://vine.co/v/OZOnMZ2xpZZ << stability manifolds
assbot: Watch Reid Wiseman's Vine "Even a 50kg mass does the same flipping maneuver. “Wild” to me! #science #SpaceVine" ... ( http://bit.ly/1Civp1R )
decimation: amusing poettering interview http://www.linuxvoice.com/interview-lennart-poettering/
assbot: Interview: Lennart Poettering | Linux Voice ... ( http://bit.ly/1CivD9e )
decimation: it's pretty obvious that the guy is a control freak who gets off on forcing his way
decimation: "So we started writing Systemd, and Red Hat didn’t like it at all. Red Hat management said: no, we’re going for Upstart, don’t work on that. So I said, OK, I’ll work on it in my free time. Eventually Red Hat realised that the problems we solved with Systemd were relevant, and were problems that needed to be solved, and that you couldn’t ignore them."
undata: decimation: I wasn't aware of that particular detail
undata: tragic; upstart is a much simpler alternative
decimation: "So anyway, long story short, we came to the conclusion that Upstart is conceptually wrong, and it moved at glacial speeds. It also had the problem that Canonical tried very hard to stay in control of it. They made sure, with copyright assignment, that they made it really hard to contribute, but that’s what Linux actually lives off. You get these drive-by patches, as I would call them, where people see that something is broken, or
decimation: something could be improved. They do a Git checkout, do one change, send you it and forget about it."
decimation: he tries to make a halfass technical argument against Upstart, and then whines that it's hard to make commits
decimation: later on he describes people who like systemd as "progressive" and those who reject it as 'conservative'
undata: well that lays bare the abstractions rolling around in that gourd, doesn't it
mircea_popescu: "Few pieces of software in history have been so fiercely debated as Systemd. "
mircea_popescu: really ? because why, because the author is 5 yo ?
mircea_popescu: how about you know, emacs wars ?
asciilifeform: 'In April was the jackal born, In June the rain-fed rivers swelled: 'Never in all my life,' said he, 'Have I so great a flood beheld.'' (orwell)
mircea_popescu: ". It’s growing all the time and now handles logging, device hotplugging events, networking, scheduled actions (like Cron) and much more. Almost every major Linux distribution has adopted Systemd, but there are still some unhappy campers out there,"
mircea_popescu: uhm. happy campers = the entire foss community ?
mircea_popescu: the lulz is so thick, considering the playbook is identically replayed with the gavincoin
mircea_popescu: course, the prospect is a lot grim-er for linux, but hey.
mircea_popescu: "in the most superficial level, some used -h for help, and others ––help. It’s not uniform." << i can't name a tool that doesn't actually honor both.
mircea_popescu: but a fuckwit 20something discussing how "people have not played with unix at all" is, indeed, amusing.
mircea_popescu: "LV: And you never see them again!
mircea_popescu: LP: Yeah, and this is great – these are the people you want to have, because the vast majority of patches are actually of that kind. "
mircea_popescu: "because they have no political power - and that's what you want, a lot of lemmings"
mircea_popescu: anyway, im not reding this idiocy.
asciilifeform: i read it. it was a total snore.
mircea_popescu: anyway. there's nothing wrong with the people who didn't belong in foss in the first place finding their own way out, just like there's nothing wrong with the people who have no business in bitcoin finding their own way out.
mircea_popescu: kinda why "adoption" is meaningless. i don't care for anyone to "adopt" anything i do. i might care if they change to fit to it. but otherwise, good fucking luck, there's no value in having a bunch of pacific islanders speak english as if it were the retarded language they spoke before.
mircea_popescu: let them stick to what they know and be happy.
mircea_popescu: giving inept infantrymen good horses doesn't create an elite cavalry regiment, it just creates a lot of injured horses. giving stupid people smart things doesn't make them smart. it'll just make a lot of broken smart things.
asciilifeform: !b 4
assbot: Last 4 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/0WFB7MQ.txt )
mircea_popescu: both are a horrible waste of beasts.
decimation: ;;ud pidgin
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Pidgin | the slang spoken by the locals in hawaii. people there do not speak hawaiian, they speak pidgin. to all my mainlander "friends": stop asking me fuckin stupid ...
mircea_popescu: in any case, the entire lennart gambit is that "actually smart people won't be able to find each other in our sea of lemmings"
mircea_popescu: kinda why stuff like the wot-foss i was discussing and even gossipd are so important
decimation: well, apparently he confirmed that redhat was itself a ship of lemmings, looking for a lemming-king, and lennart was their man
mircea_popescu: but also why a certain attitude to ineptitude, from the "affirmative action", "wopmen in tech" "don't say nigger" all the way to stupidities like the equalitarism in freenode's policies is so very important. and why linus' "fuck you" is such a major thing.
mircea_popescu: it's not gratuitous, all this. it provides a very valuable signal, both to the inferior and to the superior.
mircea_popescu: every time you see someone being stupid, piss on his face. this is important for them, and it's important for me.
mircea_popescu: tolerance is not the answer to any question worth asking, and it does not serve any purpose other than the general drowning in shit. which is not a desirable outcome in any case.
mircea_popescu: better off if half the "community" gets upset and moves on to collecting bugs or digging trenches or whatever, than if programming becomes a sort of passtime for trench diggers and worm afficionados.
mircea_popescu: /endrant
mircea_popescu: actually no, let's also add an illustration. http://38.media.tumblr.com/055cd45805272e544f0e27e390f1ee7b/tumblr_muf8b3qyLb1sa3bwyo1_r1_500.gif
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1y88BCM )
mircea_popescu: in other news, http://www.dcnews.ro/apreciere-franc-elve-ian-razboi-ana-birchall-andreea-paul_464977.html << the swiss franc situation is a disaster for 100s of k's of idiot romanians who refinanced their home mortgages in swiss francs to try and capture a half of a percent less interest.
assbot: APRECIERE FRANC ELVEȚIAN: Război cu stenograme Ana Birchall - Andreea Paul | DC News | De ce se intampla ... ( http://bit.ly/1IT3Xu0 )
mircea_popescu: that just turned into 20-30% more principal.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16750 @ 0.00047521 = 7.9598 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes: ouch.
mircea_popescu: populists in parliament having a field day over it.
mircea_popescu: arrears set to go up from 15% to 25%ish
mircea_popescu: (romania, unlike the us, actually keeps track of unserviced retail debentures)
mircea_popescu: anyway, thassall for me. have fun b-a!
ben_vulpes: does anyone know when the transaction index was added?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29000 @ 0.00047473 = 13.7672 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14586 @ 0.00047934 = 6.9917 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22014 @ 0.00048133 = 10.596 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3084 @ 0.00066737 = 2.0582 BTC [-] {10}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48186 @ 0.00048133 = 23.1934 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19794 @ 0.00048133 = 9.5274 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67250 @ 0.00048747 = 32.7824 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 83100 @ 0.00048144 = 40.0077 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65200 @ 0.00048075 = 31.3449 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55503 @ 0.00049 = 27.1965 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 10 @ 0.125 = 1.25 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22350 @ 0.00048826 = 10.9126 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.00049 = 6.223 BTC [+]
mats: http://www.capital.gr/News.asp?id=2203494
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1B20JCx )
mats: greek bank run, excluded from QE
mats: http://money.cnn.com/2015/01/16/investing/swiss-currency-fxcm one of several
assbot: Swiss shock crushes US currency broker - Jan. 16, 2015 ... ( http://bit.ly/1B21bAW )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36400 @ 0.00049025 = 17.8451 BTC [+] {2}
kakobrekla: mats http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-01-2015#978599 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 15-01-2015 21:14:09; kakobrekla: ^^ re chf, a few folks committed suicide today cause of it.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31676 @ 0.00049095 = 15.5513 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16198 @ 0.00048816 = 7.9072 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33465 @ 0.00048797 = 16.3299 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7071 @ 0.00049327 = 3.4879 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29879 @ 0.00049538 = 14.8015 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66400 @ 0.00048603 = 32.2724 BTC [-] {2}
decimation: an amusing blog post http://www.lawfareblog.com/2014/12/did-edward-snowden-call-for-abolishing-the-intelligence-community/
assbot: Lawfare › Did Edward Snowden Call for Abolishing the Intelligence Community? ... ( http://bit.ly/1DNDqjF )
decimation: there's a deep hypocrisy here somewhere. apparently the usg entities who are involved with foreign surveillance couldn't possibly do their jobs if they were subject to 'regulation', but of course regular people trying to say, transact bitcoin, have no such reprieve
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9600 @ 0.0004847 = 4.6531 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: good morning asseteers!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48550 @ 0.00049745 = 24.1512 BTC [+] {2}
davout: guten tag
davout: so, re yesterday's convo about go and c it occurs to me that b-a will eventually have to have a reviewed & signed code repo
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14293 @ 0.00048366 = 6.913 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: this occurs to you through having read the logs re the new github model / how the bitcoin foundation works or independently ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22019 @ 0.00047979 = 10.5645 BTC [-] {2}
davout: well, you can't really build a good house without good bricks
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: read the log thread in question tho, it's instructive. about how the point is to have code signed for having been read.
davout: you don't refer to yesterday's convo do you?
davout: !s signed code
assbot: 24 results for 'signed code' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=signed+code
davout: meant yesterday's log as it seems it has come up quite a few times already :D
mircea_popescu: no.
mircea_popescu: this was a few weeks prior to the foundation's birth.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=10-09-2014#824250 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 10-09-2014 11:54:21; mircea_popescu: other than proper cryptography for all foss, as discussed coupla days re gentoo overlays etc, i would fucking love for all lines of code to come with a counter.
davout: ty
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25821 @ 0.00047875 = 12.3618 BTC [-]
davout: it appears that if we want to make a proper apple pie from scratch we'll have to invent the universe first
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 20000 @ 0.00005363 = 1.0726 BTC [+] {12}
mircea_popescu: which is finbe
mircea_popescu: the current universe sucks anyway.
davout: it is fine indeed
kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-01-2015#979896 < http://w.b-a.link/otps/kakobrekla/last☝︎
assbot: Logged on 17-01-2015 01:06:05; PeterL: having the same for voice would make it so our scripts from gribble would be easily convirtable
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1IUaynW )
davout: i have nfi what kind of workload it would represent to make some linux fork that's entirely reviewed, assume it'd be pretty massive
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla : can assbot match 32 char strings as keyids instead of names ?
mircea_popescu: so stuff like <mircea_popescu> !gettrust mircea_popescu 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452
mircea_popescu: <assbot> 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452 is not registered in WoT.
PeterL: new voicing model, we still have to join #b-a before verifying otp
mircea_popescu: works so it simplifies deedbot design a lot ?
mircea_popescu: davout depends how much crap you're wiling to hoist overboard.
kakobrekla: how does it simplify ?
davout: yup
PeterL: kakobrekla: are you pointing out my horrible spelling? :)
mircea_popescu: the workload pain will probably be far exceeded by the cries of horror of the large hordes of nobodies that can no longer "innovate", in the sense their gunk is no longer included in repos
kakobrekla: <PeterL> new voicing model, we still have to join #b-a before verifying otp < yes, no session, recall?
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla 2.1. Bot extracts the signature keyid through a process homologuous to gpg -v -v
mircea_popescu: 2.2. Bot makes a request to assbot via pm, of the format ;;gpg info --key <key currently
kakobrekla: PeterL you are missing the link ?
mircea_popescu: that way, it wouldn't have to do two steps, just directly gettrust to a keyid.
PeterL: well, for gribble I have script that runs curl and gpg and pastes the result
kakobrekla: again : http://w.b-a.link/otps/kakobrekla/last
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSh16y )
PeterL: for assbot, now I have to use the mouse to highlight the new link, and type the commands
mircea_popescu: PeterL process http://w.b-a.link/otps/PeterL/last
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSh6ak )
PeterL: aha, now I see it
mircea_popescu: he put that in thar jus fer you :D
PeterL: that's cool, thanks
PeterL: too early, can't read yet
mircea_popescu: <kakobrekla> how does it simplify ? << dja see what i mean ?
kakobrekla: ;;later tell ben_vulpes as requested, json; http://w.b-a.link/user/ben_vulpes/json and http://w.b-a.link/trust/ben_vulpes/kakobrekla/json
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KShe9Y )
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KShgie )
gribble: The operation succeeded.
kakobrekla: for which command ?
kakobrekla: i dont have gpg info command
mircea_popescu: i want !gettrust to match any 32 char string as a key rather than a name
mircea_popescu: so that !gettrust mircea_popescu 6160E1CAC8A3C52966FD76998A736F0E2FB7B452 responds with "trust from mircea_popescu to mircea_popescu : so an so"
kakobrekla: yeah
mircea_popescu: that way two steps become one step and that's that.
kakobrekla: ill do it for gettrust but not others
mircea_popescu: all that's needed yes ty.
kakobrekla: k
PeterL: !rate kakobrekla 3 Runs AssWoT, other cool stuff
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/6a9d8d2d055d69cf
PeterL: !v assbot:PeterL.rate.kakobrekla.3:ad06b594522d33faffcdf84b870db76a3fbd1fcda55e860ddec83a58b3864168
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 2 to 3 with note: Runs AssWoT, other cool stuff
kakobrekla: amazing
PeterL: is scoopbot still running? -hi
scoopbot: Hello PeterL!
PeterL: oh, good
mircea_popescu: are you a slut scoopbot ? -slut
mircea_popescu: a well, so much for ai.
davout: http://i.imgur.com/00C6KHP.jpg
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSiqKs )
decimation: apparently obama also made remarks on backdoor encryption http://www.lawfareblog.com/2015/01/president-obama-comments-on-back-doors-in-encryption/
assbot: Lawfare › President Obama Comments on Back-doors in Encryption ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSisSw )
decimation: or to be more precise, he failed to make remarks when asked the question
mircea_popescu: ow shit i forgot the porny link.
mircea_popescu: http://41.media.tumblr.com/41d822d78facf0f09366bc77bda03093/tumblr_mpfi5pcu321rdn1byo1_500.jpg
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSiry4 )
decimation: other than vague "we work with companies who also have families", which is exactly the same argument one gets from the local mobster I presume
mircea_popescu: o hai chetty
mircea_popescu: decimation have you seen the "toasting the queen" thing ?
kakobrekla: mircea_popescu perhaps is even easier if i just allow for w.b-a.link/trust/key1/key2/json ?
mircea_popescu: that poor guy, he looks like a neurotic setter.
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla sure!
mircea_popescu: what's assbot key again ?
decimation: eh? I don't think so
mircea_popescu: decimation he goes to toast the queen. the athem's going on so queen ignores him.
mircea_popescu: lotta hay made out of how "the queen snubbed obama'. but the guy's just not very aware. which looked to me like a very very tired man that's being constantly pestered with advice and requirements by about 9 spinster women.
kakobrekla: assbot is 7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C
mircea_popescu: aka, the typical american child of 2010.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60869 @ 0.00048599 = 29.5817 BTC [+] {4}
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla works for me, editing this spec.
decimation: yeah, actually from his rambling answer in the linked youtube (starting 45:30), there's very little evidence obama is even aware about the 'backdoor encryption' issue at all
mircea_popescu: honestly, i don't see it's a president's job, that.
mircea_popescu: and it's not how you ask the president that question, either.
decimation: well, certainly it ought to be something he answers in writing, in detail
decimation: the trouble is there's no method to compel an answer
mircea_popescu: this is roughly the equivalent of a company with 10k cab fleet having famously a weak alternator, and some reporter asking the CEO "what about the spinny trick ?"
mircea_popescu: that's not what you say. you say, "as you may be aware, because this so and so weakness in this part of the engine that does that and this, some drivers are so and so.". guy needs an intro.
mircea_popescu: no, there shouldn't be a way to compel an answer. wtf ?!
scoopbot: New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/open-deed-system-for-bitcoin-assets/
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla can there be a /n after each otp before encryption pls.
mircea_popescu: currently it bleeds into teh bash. dun wanna put an "echo "/n"" in there .
decimation: well, there's an issue of policy here, which is "is a us person allowed to communicate in a manner outside the possibility of usg interception?"
mircea_popescu: right. that should be the question. like that.
decimation: because the implication of both cameron's and obama's answer is "no"
mircea_popescu: because that's why we go to school : so we can present our inquiries in such a way that OTHER PEOPLE can fucking grok wtf we want to know
decimation: and that appears to completely contradict constitutional and court precedent
decimation: 'because terrorism'
mircea_popescu: decimation i bet you the guy does not even currently ~KNOW~ that that's what's being discussed.
decimation: cameron clearly does, but obama gave no evidence of it
mircea_popescu: because fucking aspie autistic idiot kids + total incompetent "women in journalism" ask dronign, meaningless questions
decimation: note that there are people who could ask such questions
PeterL: http://reason.com/blog/2015/01/15/womens-college-cancels-vagina-monologues
assbot: Women's College Cancels 'Vagina Monologues' Because It Excludes Women Without Vaginas - Hit & Run : Reason.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSjjTd )
decimation: but the press corps is carefully selected to exclude them
mircea_popescu: camweon's a total heel. i have nfi whatabout england produces such contemptible sacks of shit. i thought blair was an exception, but apparently he was just a harbringer.
mircea_popescu: decimation so noted. why don't they ?
mircea_popescu: PeterL obviously, the idiocy's own internal logic is its downfall. kinda the problem with all insanity.
decimation: because the civil service would exclude access to that journalist's organization
PeterL: right, lol
mircea_popescu: decimation i propose excluding that entire thing.
mircea_popescu: !up chetty
mircea_popescu: chetty try it in here so we see ?
chetty: !v assbot:chetty.up:ef543cc75b665e6c256ba24daf682446e46a10a97d497ef0f6258a61671a362
assbot: Invalid verfication string.
PeterL: somebody is trying to hack into chetty's account?
chetty: it doesnt like me
mircea_popescu: that string's too short.
mircea_popescu: missing 9 chars.
chetty: what my key has been hax
mircea_popescu: nah.
kakobrekla: hm
kakobrekla: try that in private ?
mircea_popescu: it's the missing /n at en of otp giving all sorts of people hell
mircea_popescu: because gotta recover the end of the key from their bash string
decimation: cameron said "as technology develops, as the world moves on, we should try to avoid safehavens that can otherwise be created for terrorists to talk to each other"
kakobrekla: otp !up should work only on private
kakobrekla: chan !up is for non otp use
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla im pretty sure i v'd here.
kakobrekla: !up Anduck
kakobrekla: !down Anduck
kakobrekla: !u
kakobrekla: !up
mircea_popescu: !v dude. !v.
assbot: Invalid verfication string.
kakobrekla: a yes, v you can you anywhere
decimation: perhaps that quote should be gossipd's motto
mircea_popescu: decimation could well be lol.
mircea_popescu: decimation: there's a deep hypocrisy here somewhere. apparently the usg entities who are involved with foreign surveillance couldn't possibly do their jobs if they were subject to 'regulation', but of course regular people trying to say, transact bitcoin, have no such reprieve << well, usg entities that deal in bitcoin do have such reprieve currently ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55000 @ 0.00047492 = 26.1206 BTC [-] {2}
decimation: some elements of usg would claim otherwise
mircea_popescu: heck, the us scammer office (previously marshall's office) doesn't have to answer foia if it doesn't feel like it, and can even lie in public statements.
mircea_popescu: come to think about it, so can the da.
mircea_popescu: seems to me like pretty complete legal immunity.
decimation: in theory, usg has no legal immunity (from criminal courts), but in practice it clearly does
mircea_popescu: for as long as that lasts lol.
decimation: in civil court usg has explicit immunity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity_in_the_United_States
assbot: Sovereign immunity in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1wik1yA )
mircea_popescu: this is universal.
mircea_popescu: bitbet has it as well. so does every other country.
kakobrekla: mircea_popescu http://w.b-a.link/trust/7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C/27C3CE9A20851312F086268C27AF75321F2489E8
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1wik9y5 )
mircea_popescu: sweet.
kakobrekla: actually http://w.b-a.link/trust/7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C/27C3CE9A20851312F086268C27AF75321F2489E8
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1wikfpg )
kakobrekla: and http://w.b-a.link/trust/7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C/27C3CE9A20851312F086268C27AF75321F2489E8/json
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1wikfFJ )
mircea_popescu: this doesn't look like it should be legal.,
mircea_popescu: it's too complicated.
kakobrekla: yeah ill prolly end up in jail
mircea_popescu: move to hungary. i hear they're going all fascist.
PeterL: there was talk earlier about newspapers. I find good local reporting at http://mlive.com and my sister-in-law writes for http://tooeleonline.com/
assbot: Michigan Local News, Breaking News, Sports & Weather - MLive.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1wikq44 )
assbot: Tooele Transcript Bulletin – News in Tooele, Utah ... ( http://bit.ly/1wikqkq )
mircea_popescu: lol i read that as "toe online" was o.O
PeterL: lol
kakobrekla: mircea_popescu check new line if fixed?
mircea_popescu: !rate kakobrekla 17 hurr
assbot: Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.
mircea_popescu: !rate kakobrekla 1.7 hurr
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/9f1f7a77bb5ab2a1
kakobrekla: lol.
mircea_popescu: lmao fractions rly ?
kakobrekla: try it
kakobrekla: see what happens
decimation: !rate decimation 0.1 marginal
assbot: You can not rate yourself.
mircea_popescu: fixed tyvm
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.kakobrekla.1.7:b40b7beddd0f6b2f45874cb24cdb3dcd9c051c5c9727a4b306b1f115729982a0
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 5 to 1.7 with note: hurr
kakobrekla: lol!
mircea_popescu: lmao wut
kakobrekla: nfi
PeterL: !rate decimation 0.1 marginal
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/9d9547d664ea4ebf
mircea_popescu: this is not a bug.
mircea_popescu: it's a future.
decimation: lol
decimation: me thinks there might be some bugs
PeterL: !v assbot:PeterL.rate.decimation.0.1:17d02404cae9e530dcd5e82a06dad23963c9560e9b0530d785bd01da78a11710
assbot: Successfully added a rating of 0.1 for decimation with note: marginal
mircea_popescu: nah srsly. kakobrekla dun bother fixing
decimation: lol
PeterL: so, if somebody has < 1 L2 rating, they don't get voice? or it just has to be > 0?
mircea_popescu: > 0 i hope.
kakobrekla: !gettrust kakobrekla
assbot: Trust relationship from user kakobrekla to user kakobrekla: ∞ | http://w.b-a.link/user/kakobrekla
kakobrekla: hmm
mircea_popescu: !gettrust kakobrekla
assbot: Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user kakobrekla: Level 1: 2, Level 2: 54 via 32 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/mircea_popescu/kakobrekla | http://w.b-a.link/user/kakobrekla
kakobrekla: i think it didnt work
mircea_popescu: o look it rounds ?
PeterL: !gettrust decimation
assbot: Trust relationship from user PeterL to user decimation: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/PeterL/decimation | http://w.b-a.link/user/decimation
PeterL: rounds down?
kakobrekla: no, it did not work, comment is unchanged
mircea_popescu: !rate kakobrekla 5 too much stuff to list. inquire within..
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/721476ec38fdf8b8
PeterL: !rated decimation
assbot: You rated user decimation on 17-Jan-2015, with a rating of 0, and supplied these additional notes: marginal.
PeterL: see, rounded down
mircea_popescu: !v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.kakobrekla.5:4854d908f615d0a4735169e307d17352740d17b15f4608f0200d018f6683baad
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for kakobrekla from 2 to 5 with note: too much stuff to list. inquire within..
mircea_popescu: baad eh ?
mircea_popescu: PeterL i guess 1.7 -> 2 0.1 -> 0
PeterL: so it lets you input a fraction, but converts to int?
kakobrekla: why are you asking me, do you think i know ?
kakobrekla goes to look the code
davout: b-a is so mean, kakobrekla makes something nice, everyone tries to break it
PeterL: you made it?
mircea_popescu: it was his twin brother.
PeterL: the more we disclose now leaves less suprises later
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 144 @ 0.00734105 = 1.0571 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: he's just jealous we care.
kakobrekla: !rate assbot -1.1
assbot: Rating should be any non zero value between 10 and -10.
mircea_popescu: nonzero integer
kakobrekla: should say int but whatever.
kakobrekla: heh
mircea_popescu: yeah no big deal
PeterL: so no more decimals?
kakobrekla: NO
PeterL hangs head in shame
fluffypony: http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2sqh0a/decentralising_mining_making_p2pool_more/
assbot: Decentralising mining: Making P2Pool more lucrative by coinbaseless fees? : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSl3Mn )
fluffypony: "The alert key will be raised by Gavin"
fluffypony: don't worry guize, Gavin will save err'one
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: http://38.media.tumblr.com/c137c08dddcf441ea324c1f37c8c8246/tumblr_mnryfvVNSu1ssms30o1_500.gif << post gavin salvation.
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1KSliam )
PeterL: !up chetty
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2000 @ 0.00069999 = 1.4 BTC [-]
PeterL: !up Panadol______
PeterL: hi Panadol______ , what brings you here today?
mircea_popescu: !up bitspill
mircea_popescu: !up McNumpty
mircea_popescu: !up mats
mats: a hello
mircea_popescu: hai,
mats: !s dnssec
assbot: 15 results for 'dnssec' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=dnssec
mircea_popescu: http://www.collarspace.com/personals/v/2177988/details.htm << if anyone in london wants to host a retiring escort...
assbot: Dear All, My name is Coco, I am a 20 year old Chinese girl and I have just arrived fr ... ( http://bit.ly/1yvXNPk )
mats: http://sockpuppet.org/blog/2015/01/15/against-dnssec/
assbot: Against DNSSEC — Quarrelsome ... ( http://bit.ly/1yvXP9N )
mircea_popescu: seems you can't be black tho.
mircea_popescu: mats all good points.
mircea_popescu: we stand against dns and against govt-sponsored pki schemes. their combination is not likely to resolve that.
mircea_popescu: (well minus the "modern crypto uses ecdsa")
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21000 @ 0.00048985 = 10.2869 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: good morning terrorists
ben_vulpes: http://w.b-a.link/trust/ben_vulpes/kakobrekla/json << lovely, kakobrekla thanks a mil
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1yvZFrl )
mircea_popescu: hi terror brother ben
ben_vulpes: buenos dias
ben_vulpes: the apartment complex drain backed up
ben_vulpes: i awoke to sewage leaking around the bathtub plug actuator
mircea_popescu: this somehow brings to mind iron maiden
ben_vulpes: it's a Good Morning in America™
mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dzSEenqc3w
assbot: Iron Maiden - Holy Smoke - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1yw03pT )
mircea_popescu: !up gabriel_laddel
mircea_popescu: you know you can assbot selfvoice ?
gabriel_laddel: yeah
mircea_popescu: "I've lived in filth, I've lived in sin, but I still smell cleaner than the shit you're in"
gabriel_laddel: Any #-assets members who will admit to being a fan of supreme commander or total annihilation?
mircea_popescu: total commander ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25700 @ 0.00049959 = 12.8395 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: supreme annihilation's a pretty fun game
ben_vulpes: need the right partners tho
ben_vulpes eyes p. bahaha
ben_vulpes: http://trilema.com/2015/open-deed-system-for-bitcoin-assets/ << wish i had time for this one
assbot: [OPEN] Deed system for #bitcoin-assets pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1yw0HUh )
mircea_popescu: actually the supreme commander thing looks pretty slick.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6mZZiI4ShQ
assbot: Total Annihilation Intro (brighter) - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1yw0IaT )
mircea_popescu: somehow i've never played either.
gabriel_laddel: they're in the same vein of games such as diablo I&II, baulders gate, path of exile etc. Not in terms of gameplay, but overall attention to detail and cohesive structure.
mircea_popescu: !up Tykling
mircea_popescu: they look more like tower defense / dune2 sort of thing to me /
mircea_popescu: baldur's gate btw!
gabriel_laddel: oh ty.
undata: ben_vulpes: we have a buddy with an extensible IRC bot; how's that raw tx backport coming?
undata: er archaeology and re-implementation
undata: actually, it appears it would only have to be aware that a tx has occurred, not send any
ben_vulpes: undata: if you're interested in implementing, talk to MP for the spec
ben_vulpes: i don't really know how the transmission of btc is supposed to work for the thing
undata: it'd be neat if the thing paid its own bills out of its fees on some btc vps
ben_vulpes: probably want to decouple bot from funding actions
ben_vulpes: anyways
ben_vulpes: tx backport archaeology's an interesting thing
ben_vulpes: i'm starting to see some of the rationale behind the wallet paradigm - creating transactions for signing requires being able to retrieve arbitrary transactions from the blockchain
danielpbarron: i'd say TA is more like starcraft
ben_vulpes: far easier for the people working on it at the time to make some silly assumptions about what txns a user would want to sign, and then keep those txns on hand
ben_vulpes: creating a raw transaction requires having the previous transaction in hand in full at runtime, so as to extract the pubkey from the previous transaction
ben_vulpes: while this isn't *strictly* necessary, it's how things work now.
ben_vulpes: i don't know that a bitcoind would be able to verify a transaction without access to the full inputs
danielpbarron: i thought all you need to know is the tx id of the outputs you want to use, the private keys of the coresponding addresses, a destination, and an amount
ben_vulpes: to use the modern txn api, yeah
ben_vulpes: but!
ben_vulpes: to verify that you've created a valid transaction, you have to have the entirety of the previous output on hand to examine the public key
ben_vulpes: otherwise you just sign hash of txn, index in txn, and have no way to double check that you produced a valid signature corresponding to the pubkey to which those funds were transmitted originally.
ben_vulpes: danielpbarron: make sense?
ben_vulpes: (one can sign anything at any time - that's not the problem. the problems crop up in a) knowing the sigs are valid and b) the multi-input, multi-privkey transaction generation use-case: how am i to know which privkeys are to be used to sign which inputs, and furthermore [and somewhat recursively] how do i know those signatures to be valid?)
danielpbarron: what are you signing it with?
ben_vulpes: a user-supplied privkey.
danielpbarron: the one that goes with the pubkey of the output right/
ben_vulpes: sure
ben_vulpes: how do i get the pubkey for a given output?
ben_vulpes: say i have the transaction hash (aka txid) and output index - how do i get the pubkey those coins were sent to?
danielpbarron: this is for deedbot right? don't you already know what the last pubkey was?
ben_vulpes: no no no
ben_vulpes: raw transactions
ben_vulpes: *entirely* different project
danielpbarron: oh well yeah you need to know the whole blockchain to verify a tx in that case
danielpbarron: i tried to make a raw tx once, got rejected by my own node for having too small a fee
asciilifeform: sorta the point of having blockchain, no ?
ben_vulpes: "whole blockchain" << and more specifically, a trivial lookup of txids
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: iirc, i did mention 'can pull up arbitrary tx' as part of what a 'whole bitcoin node' has to do
asciilifeform: perhaps i should have given more proof
asciilifeform lazy
ben_vulpes pissing on fences
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes not dead, therefore grew stronger
ben_vulpes: learned some
ben_vulpes: brain now contains c++, not sure if improvement
asciilifeform: at any rate, there is really no way to understand the thing other than - reading it
asciilifeform: however unpleasant
ben_vulpes: <danielpbarron> i tried to make a raw tx once, got rejected by my own node for having too small a fee << heinous
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52300 @ 0.00050221 = 26.2656 BTC [+] {3}
davout: danielpbarron: iirc with the raw tx thing you can send zero fees without problem, there's however a safeguard against sending a massive fee
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 9 @ 0.125 = 1.125 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> danielpbarron: make sense? << yes, that's what that is.
davout: https://github.com/cinchrb/cinch/commit/496f026439ab6c421ac229a34246bf26f2b4daa6 <<< feminists...
assbot: Remove gender specific language · 496f026 · cinchrb/cinch · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1CaWc2h )
undata: davout: it's ruby; let them have it
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55900 @ 0.00048731 = 27.2406 BTC [-] {2}
davout: undata: i like ruby :)
undata: eh alright
ben_vulpes: nevermind that them/their is actually incorrect grammar if not used in reference to more than one person
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45900 @ 0.00048471 = 22.2482 BTC [-] {2}
davout: ben_vulpes: wasn't sure about that, I assumed a weakness in my own english since no one brought that up, but it did sound slightly weird, thanks for clearing it up!
Apocalyptic: looks like a valid "singular they" to me, "valid" in the grammatical sense
ben_vulpes: it's only ever pushed by "anti sexists"
ben_vulpes: as a valid construct.
ben_vulpes: a plural cannot by definition be a singular thing.
ben_vulpes: if you don't know the gender, say "his or her"
ben_vulpes: "their" implies more than one party.
punkman: it works :)
punkman: http://i.imgur.com/Pg5CRSB.png
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1ud5dqR )
punkman: ben_vulpes, I think "their/they" was being used long before the queers adopted it
ben_vulpes: "pushed by" not "initiated by". furthermore, doesn't make the usage somehow acceptable.
ben_vulpes: not that anyone should expect a "developer" to understand how to write english well - it's hard and takes a lot of dedicated study.
ben_vulpes: as someone somewhere once said "i don't hire developers who spell well, i hire developers who mispell consistently."
asciilifeform: it's hard and takes a lot of dedicated study << only for folks who do not read for pleasure in the particular language.
kakobrekla: fuck i read
kakobrekla: and i like it
kakobrekla: still spell for shit
kakobrekla: spill i mean
kakobrekla: peal
kakobrekla: speal
davout: kakobrekla: would it be hard to make links such as w.b-a.link/trust/7C1FBEC924FBD66531A02AE3F95E4E395927DC9C/291237F37A2C023CADBED52513288EAB01713428/json work with keyids as well as fingerprints?
kakobrekla: keyids are evil
davout: yea, i was reading gpg's rfc yesterday and found out that they aren't supposed to be relied upon for unicity
kakobrekla has nfi why nano keeps keyid field in his db
davout: thing is, i was also reading mp's deedbot spec, the part i was wondering about was the "extract keyid from signed message, and use it in w.b-a.link URL"
kakobrekla: replace keyid with fp ?
davout: kakobrekla: "nfi why nano keeps keyid field in his db" <<< if you keep the fingerprint you're automatically keeping the key id as far as i understand since the key id is simply the second half of the fpr
kakobrekla: last 16 chars iirc
kakobrekla: out of 40
davout: "replace keyid with fp ?" <<< sure, but how do i get the fpr from a signed message? gpg -v -v will just return the key id
kakobrekla: --fingerprint ?
davout: that would work when listing keys, i can't seem to get it work when piping a clearsigned msg to "gpg -v -v --fingerprint"
punkman: --with-fingerprint maybe
davout: s/it xork/it to work/
davout: derp
kakobrekla: cunt spill fer shut!
undata: ben_vulpes: them being the feminists you pedant
undata: :p
kakobrekla: davout idk worst case some awk and pipes ?
undata: ben_vulpes: hah oh the commit
undata: carry on then
davout: punkman: doth not work
undata: as for english as I delve into a few other languages on duolingo I find my native tongue ever more horrifying
undata: a shantytown cobbled together with the leftovers of other cultures
davout: if i don't have the key in my own keyring it doesn't seem possible to extract the fingerprint from a signed message
undata: however thouse german articles are going to do me in
kakobrekla: davout you can search keyserver perhps, but starting the search wherever with keyid instead of fp is not best idea
Apocalyptic: davout, yeah but anyway you would have the key in your keyring since you have to validate the sig
Apocalyptic: so this is a false problem
davout: it's always possible to query gribble to get the mapping, but that seems... suboptimal
punkman: davout, there is some combination of options that will do it for sure, you can look in python-gnupg
kakobrekla: the point is MAPPING is bad
undata: davout: you're not going to write it in ruby are you?
undata: pls no
davout: Apocalyptic: "you have to validate the sig" <<< no i don't think so
kakobrekla: doesnt matter WHERE you do it
undata: I've got a friend with a decent golang bot on github
kakobrekla: lol
Apocalyptic: davout, wait, so you're going to publish the deed without checking the signature is legit ?
davout: Apocalyptic: yeah, i think mp mentioned somewhere that verifying the sig is not necessary
Apocalyptic: oh ok
undata considers the silence an affirmative...
punkman: pretty sure it has to be verified
davout: kakobrekla: i agree, it's bad if you rely on keyids to actually identify the key, but if you output the actual full fingerprints in the returned json one can make an educated choice
davout: punkman: mebbe i'm wrong here, lemme try and find a reference
Apocalyptic: sounds to me like a dubious choice but heh, if mp sez so
Apocalyptic: I can see a quite unpleasant spam attack otherwise
kakobrekla: which json is that ?
davout: punkman Apocalyptic http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-08-2014#815284 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 30-08-2014 00:59:50; mircea_popescu: this way you don't have to keep updated keyrings locally or verify signatures in any wya
kakobrekla: you mean you input keyid and i output fp
kakobrekla: you still need to check i didnt give you garbage no
davout: yeah, i put fpr or keyid in url, you spit out the fpr, actually no that's dumb
undata: https://github.com/kyleterry/tenyks << use this
assbot: kyleterry/tenyks · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1ud8k1W )
davout: lemme think moar
kakobrekla: undata is it decoupled?
undata: yeah
undata: you'd write the deed bit as a plugin
kakobrekla: not what i mean
punkman: as a reminder, code is here https://github.com/extempore/deedbundler
assbot: extempore/deedbundler · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1ud8wOD )
punkman: (some updates and docs coming in next couple days)
kakobrekla: decoupled bot means that the connection process is seperate from all others
davout: what *is* specified is that the bot must verify that the signer has L1/L2 assbot trust, looks like this can't be verified correctly without either relying on a keyid as an actual key unique identifier OR keeping a synchronized keyring and actually verifying the signature
undata: kakobrekla: yes, that's what I meant
undata: the networking core is one thing, and plugins communicate with that over redis
undata: plugins can be started and stopped independently of the core
kakobrekla: redis eh
punkman: kakobrekla: can haz asswot dump?
kakobrekla will one day recode assbot with zmq
kakobrekla: punkman ill set up a daily dump to files.b-a
punkman: kewl
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25000 @ 0.00049101 = 12.2753 BTC [+]
Apocalyptic: davout, so you're taking the deedbot project ?
undata: to summarize what's desired, the bot accepts signed documents from wot members in good standing only, publishes them by burning a small amount of btc and uploading to a site?
davout: Apocalyptic: i've started poking at it yep
davout: undata: it doesn't burn the bitcoins
davout: other than that your understanding seems correct to me
undata: ah you're right
undata: the hash is the privkey
undata: derp
undata: seems like the parties wishing to publish should provide coin to the deedbot operator
davout: not really sure why it has to be restricted to asseteers but w/e
undata: davout: the deeds are presumably for business arrangements
undata: the wot is an excellent tool for making good decisions about establishing those
davout: oh, and it's ppl who have L1/L2 trust from assbot, a subset from the wot members sez the spec
punkman: ben_vulpes, this might be of interest http://bitcoinstats.com/irc/bitcoin-dev/logs/2015/01/14#l1421274866
assbot: BitcoinStats ... ( http://bit.ly/1udaiPI )
davout: undata: "the wot is an excellent tool for making good decisions about establishing those" <<< sure, but i'm not sure why the notarization *tool* would enforce that, i defo don't feel strongly enough about it to argue the point either way
undata: davout: not my rationale; speculating on what it might be
Apocalyptic: davout, re "looks like this can't be verified correctly without either relying on a keyid as an actual key unique identifier OR keeping a synchronized keyring and actually verifying the signature" I suspect there actually is, playing with the source atm
Apocalyptic: grep "get_short_fingerprint" in verify.c and see the related call get_fingerprint_hexstring() which supposedly could get the full fp
davout: Apocalyptic: looking at the rfc to see the clearsigned message structure
davout: Apocalyptic: RFC 5.2.2 sez a signature packet contains "Eight-octet Key ID of signer"
Apocalyptic: then it's settled I guess
kakobrekla: basically it says you are fucked
davout: o/
davout: pretty much
davout: so basically the options are
scoopbot: New post on Qntra.net by cazalla: http://qntra.net/2015/01/british-bankers-association-bitcoin-a-threat-to-sterling-may-aid-terrorists/
davout: - alter spec and add a gribble dependency
Apocalyptic: I wonder what the behaviour is if you have two pubkeys in your keyring with the same eight bytes key id and you're trying to verify a message
davout: - maintain a full asswot keyring on deedbot's server
davout: - not give a fuck about who signed a to-be-notarized blob
punkman: Apocalyptic: you can find keys with keyid collisions here https://github.com/coruus/cooperpair
assbot: coruus/cooperpair · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1udc43q )
davout: - allow unsigned blobs to be notarized
Apocalyptic: the second seems like a reasonable choice
davout: - the last option is kakobrekla getting some moar work
Apocalyptic: punkman, thanks for the link, but I mean that there should be something in the clearsigned message structures that clearly identifies the key that produced it
punkman: I think there is, but not 100% sure
davout: well, apparently not
Apocalyptic: well according to what davout said there is just the 8 bytes
Apocalyptic: which is clearly not a canonical identification
Apocalyptic: I confess that surprises me, had imagined the full fp would be somewhere
davout: looked at version 3 signature packets, mebbe version 4 includes them
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 175 @ 0.00651001 = 1.1393 BTC [+]
davout: the version 4 signature subpacket spec isn't that clear to me, maybe asciilifeform has some insight
davout: kakobrekla: is there a way to easily get an array of asswotted fingerprints?
punkman: dabout, just tested it http://dpaste.com/3PDW8YM
assbot: dpaste: 3PDW8YM ... ( http://bit.ly/1uddP0x )
kakobrekla: daiily db dump?
davout: punkman: well, you're requesting a public key, so of course it works :-)
undata: the dump seems like the most straightforward thing to me
undata: signed by kakobrekla of course
davout: kakobrekla: if a 24h delay between asswot registration and ability to notarize is acceptable that would work
davout: it still boils down to a fpr <-> keyid mapping tho, not that this is evil _for this particular purpose_ but still
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26850 @ 0.00049379 = 13.2583 BTC [+] {2}
kakobrekla: the problem with signing that dump is automation and keeping the key on boxen
davout: kakobrekla: tbh if verifying the signature on notarized data is not considered necessary i don't think it's a big issue if the dump is unsigned
punkman: davout: you are right, doesn't work with clearsigned message
undata: why is it not necessary to verify signatures before notarizing?
punkman: so I guess v4 sigs don't have fingerprints either
davout: but if you'd be ok with having some API call simply return the array of fingerprints in realtime, that'd be the easiest deedbot-wise :D
undata: davout: isn't the whole point of a notary verifying the identities of the parties involved then verifying that an agreement has taken place?
undata: or have I missed something
davout: undata: i didn't spec it, ask mp for the rationale -> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-08-2014#815284 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 30-08-2014 00:59:50; mircea_popescu: this way you don't have to keep updated keyrings locally or verify signatures in any wya
davout: undata: the notary doesn't enforce the agreement so why bother verifying the signature at all
undata: well he's saying ask gribble
undata: that makes sense
davout: for all i care the bot could hang out in -assets, and notarize whatever is asked from whoever has voice, sounds like the simplest straight-to-the-point approach to me
undata: I don't like it
davout: well, let's light some jasmine candles and talk about our feelings then
undata: so you're going to rely on the IRC protocol and not gpg?
undata: the fuck is the point of even having gpg involved then?
undata: and how does one move the process to another protocol later
undata: that's dumb
davout: because the notary doesn't enforce or verify anything, just certifies that something existed at some point of time
undata: surely one can do better than stamping any turd that comes along
undata: anyhow do it your way
undata: I'm hacking on it as well
davout: lol
davout: the thing is that, whatever turd comes along is necessarily given by someone who has voice in assets, so by very definition, not a turd
undata: davout: because no one ever once was opped in a chan that shouldn't have been
undata: use your head.
davout: meh, it's not like that person could steal stuff or anything
undata: says the bridge builder to the parties on either side "eh, fuck it, whatever"
davout: i mean, even in that case, what's the worst that could happen? specifically?
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3596 @ 0.00068279 = 2.4553 BTC [-] {12}
undata: davout: a notary is not just a person with a clock and eyes
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3933 @ 0.0006596 = 2.5942 BTC [-] {21}
undata: part of the service is actually having an idea of what has transpired, sort of renting out your good name
undata: ? and ? did *whatever*
undata: ^not a valuable service
undata: or I'll go sit on a park bench and call myself a notary
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1925 @ 0.00063202 = 1.2166 BTC [-] {2}
davout: look, there is a reason it's called deedbot, and not notarybot, it's none of deedbot's business to know what happened, for all you know the notarized stuff could perfectly be encrypted
davout: what then? you refuse to process it?
undata: two parties presented themselves to me and both said "I agree to whatevers in this blob"
undata: I have witnessed that fact and I sign and note the time
undata: yes that's fine
davout: that's not what tell you, they tell you 'this blob existed at that point of time, what's in it is none of your business'
undata: agreeing it existed is an agreement...
undata: you are being dense; go hack
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27509 @ 0.00049673 = 13.6645 BTC [+]
undata: whether it says inside "A owes B his kidney" or "The sky is blue" both can be held to account that they have made the utterance by the existince of the thing
undata: less so if the witness did not bother to verify identity
davout: the point is to timestamp stuff, not hold anyone accountable to anybody other than by the actual parties to the contract, what's so hard about that?
undata: no, it's to timestamp that an agreement occurred between two identified parties
undata: I'm done arguing
davout: lol, where does the spec even mention a second party?
undata: davout: why are they published?
davout: lol yes
undata: ... that's not an answer to my question
undata: why does one publish the signed blobs
undata: what's the point of that? in human terms?
davout: umm... to timestamp them
undata: god you're dumb
undata: davout: what is the point of publishing a scientific work in a credible journal?
davout: i think we should've stuck to lighting these jasmine candles :-)
undata: davout: lest you have to think about anything other than rubbing some ruby together
undata: the reputation of the orifice matters and is maintained by not shoveling shit out into the public forum
davout: ...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8391 @ 0.00049623 = 4.1639 BTC [-]
undata: davout: surely you understand that the wot quantifies what a deed may provide historicity
undata: say you and I make an agreement and you fail to execute your side
undata: I negrate you
undata: doesn't our agreement being public and with firm verification of identity bolster my claim among peers that you're a knucklehead?
asciilifeform: davout: the version 4 signature subpacket spec << what do you want to know about it ?
asciilifeform: davout: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4880
assbot: RFC 4880 - OpenPGP Message Format ... ( http://bit.ly/1CAOiOa )
davout: asciilifeform: yeah, that's what i was reading, it mentions user ids in the subpackets spec, but i'm unsure whether that includes an actual key fingerprint, i tend to understand that it doesn't
davout: (pretty interesting read btw)
asciilifeform: davout: nope. key id.
kakobrekla: any good reason for this ?
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: none afaik. the standard simply sucks.
kakobrekla: i was afraid you gonna say that.
davout: lol
asciilifeform: 'it saves a few bytes' probably sounded like 'good reason' to the authors.
kakobrekla: nsa only has so much disk space.
asciilifeform: or, alternatively, like the choice of 'aes' over the stronger but 'slower' 'serpent' cipher, it was merely orders from lizardhitler.
davout: "Implementations SHOULD NOT assume that Key IDs are unique", so let's just include that in the signature packet. derp
asciilifeform: davout: a little subtler than that. the original assumption was that you would only ever verify sigs from folks you had a proper key party with
asciilifeform: and hence have a reasonably confident idea of genuine key for.
davout: which makes sense
asciilifeform: hence the 'key id' was meant as merely a soft handle to quickly pick out the right pubkey.
kakobrekla: fuckin key party and assumption of socialization
asciilifeform: rather than something to resist attack of any kind
asciilifeform: original pgp was not an apparatus for one-off deals with strangers, but something to use between friends, as i understand.
davout: and i guess even in the case of a keyid collision that has no impact on actual signature verification
asciilifeform: davout: correct
asciilifeform: davout: assuming it was an accidental collision, and that you have not entered a properly, maliciously crafted pubkey into your keychain that it -will- verify with
asciilifeform: if that makes sense
asciilifeform: the keychain thing nicely parallels ben_vulpes's discussion re: bitcoind wallets
asciilifeform: if it seems asinine, it is because it was designed for a certain pattern of use, which does not apply now.
davout: that doesn't make much sense to me, how would a maliciously crafted pubkey even verify the signature?
asciilifeform: davout: only if the signature was in fact made with evilkey
asciilifeform: davout: picture if you were trying to pass a document off as having been signed by X. you generate a key with the correct name, etc. and colliding keyid, then try to pass it off as the genuine article; then, when chumps swallow it, sign with it
asciilifeform: and naturally the sigs will verify
asciilifeform: this is considerably harder (in practice, likely impossible) with fp instead of id
asciilifeform: but rfc4880 does not specify that fp ought to be embedded in sigs.
asciilifeform: and so they weren't.
asciilifeform: hence this thread.
davout: the signature verification would in this case (assuming both keys are in the keyring) yield both a pass and a fail, right?
davout: ;;calc 2^64
gribble: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
davout: ;;calc 2**64
gribble: 18446744073709551616
davout: that would be the number of distinct keyids, not sure how practically feasible it would be to bruteforce a collision
Apocalyptic: 2**64 is well within reach of a supercomputer
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35709 @ 0.00050049 = 17.872 BTC [+]
Apocalyptic: just take the bitcoin network, it performs 2**64 hashes in 60 seconds at current hashrate if I'm not mistaken
davout: i see
Apocalyptic: and that's just for a preimage, if you want a collision the birthday paradox will tell you that you need much less than that
ben_vulpes: <kakobrekla> [] fuckin key party and assumption of socialization << another kakobrekla line worth reposting
davout: well, if you want to pull off an attack on someone you'll want to get a collision with a specific key id
punkman: davout, see cooper-pair link, has various PoCs
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11847 @ 0.00048378 = 5.7313 BTC [-]
davout: !s cooper-pair
assbot: 0 results for 'cooper-pair' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=cooper-pair
Apocalyptic: http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2015/01/16/obama-sides-with-cameron-in-encryption-fight/ // to paraphrase ascii, mega-lol
assbot: Obama Sides with Cameron in Encryption Fight - Digits - WSJ ... ( http://bit.ly/1CASWeV )
asciilifeform: Apocalyptic: 'key escrow' crapolade went out with the first clinton presidency, will probably return with the second.
asciilifeform: (third)
Apocalyptic: can't wait
davout: "sure you can escrow my key, wanna make sure it's mine? just check the keyid"
undata: asciilifeform: after the next attack they'll ram all kind of laws through around weakining crypto
undata: *ening
undata: because terrorists can't find an old copy of gpg?
asciilifeform: undata: at some point it will be forbidden in usa to sell or even own a computer which can meaningfully run classic gpg
asciilifeform: this is a considerably less-fantastic scenario than it would have appeared to be in the '90s, because of the 'nintendoization' of computing. gpg simply won't appear in the apple and microshit 'app stores' and thereby vanish
nanotube: kakobrekla: i have no idea why i keep keyid as a separate column in db either. probably something grandfathered in...
kakobrekla: :)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37900 @ 0.0004938 = 18.715 BTC [+] {2}
undata: asciilifeform: not far-fetched at all
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9154 @ 0.00048378 = 4.4285 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8507 @ 0.00050465 = 4.2931 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65131 @ 0.00048038 = 31.2876 BTC [-] {2}