assbot: Logged on 15-11-2014 00:37:34; asciilifeform: let's pretend that it just happened to fall upon the earth.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 171075 @ 0.00052512 = 89.8349 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20050 @ 0.00054445 = 10.9162 BTC [+] {2}
decimation: asciilifeform: indeed. it is an interesting point about the muslims, having to square the circle of islamic teaching forced them off the 'trunk' onto a backwards branchline
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that math wot reduces to, having the right people to laugh at you.
decimation: I would also note that hardly anyone who builds on the mainline 'thought trunk' is aware of the fact that they are doing so
decimation: as in their ideas only look foundational in retrospect
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> (the cost is not apparent while the spoils of war - american tanks, ru/cn-contributed ammo, asian electronics - are plentiful. but try after!) << quite exactly this.
mircea_popescu: "that thing which the usg deems an occupation in the manner krill occupies a whale"
decimation: the krill could claim to compose nearly all of the wale
decimation: might even scheme to move the whale's path
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> resolution of thoughtchain forks is not even close to a solved problem. << the resolution per se is probably as you point out not even approachable as a problem, which is unsurprising seeing how it logically predates the notion of problem. nevertheless, the resolution of THE PROBLEM of thoughtchain forks is actually a very well understood thing.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: i've been peppering ag3ntzero guy with exactly this for the past week
mircea_popescu: because i am so amused that someone could use the relatively advanced keyboard but not know how to do THAT.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: decimation their branchline is in no sense backwards. it is currently the consensus of thinking people (alf said "ru", but really, i agree, everyone with any sense agrees, ru is no determinant) that they are in point of fact broadly correct,
☟︎ mircea_popescu: just the fact that they enjoy a defacto monopoly on criticism makes YOU backward.
mircea_popescu: the sad result of post-war welfarism being that "the west" is now in this sad position where the brightest minds are in the heads of some unwashed horde somewhere in the mideast.
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 05-07-2015 11:18:09; punkman: on a related note, kinda annoying reading through logs and trying to read all those expired dpastes
assbot: Logged on 05-07-2015 13:08:28; mats: pgpdump really needs a rewrite...
assbot: Logged on 05-07-2015 14:50:21; asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu node on dulap is still wedged. and apparently this is not a terribly good place for a node, phuctor gets i/o-starved and dies
assbot: Logged on 05-07-2015 15:11:48; asciilifeform: in general principle: destroy backups (the morons often make this possible!), produce leaks from which there ~can be no recovery~, etc
mats: i haven't noticed any actual bugs, but its apparent the person who wrote the port literally just copied it over without using python idioms like factories
☟︎ mircea_popescu: "you wanted to benefit from responsible disclosure protections, you should have been in the wot" "but at the time i made that decision it seemed a no brainer, why expend the effort" "right. this is why you die."
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-07-2015#1188255 << i dunno that it's known as anything from there, but i'll point out to you that a) the only time this was ever successful was when the jews did it to hitler in the 30s. the cost was, a practical end to that ethnic group, because the jews calling themselves jewish today are not the central european hasids who were to jewry in 1920 what china is to asia today. they
☝︎ mircea_popescu: got practically some indonesians or somesuch. not even counting the significant costs to the helpers - the british empire ended up dismantled as a result, in a manner very much reminiscent of the "fetlife dmca's mp, and as a result some random dc in the us pays for mp's yacht".
mircea_popescu: so to sum up : not usian but jewish ; not effectual generally but once ; not effectual at all but VERY expensive.
mircea_popescu: otherwise, the lefty "tactics" are purely sexual behaviours. if you examine it through the lens of "i am looking at an anal child", it's readily apparent they're seeking parental contact.
assbot: Logged on 05-07-2015 15:33:42; asciilifeform:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187470 << what i was saying there bears repeating. if we had a fleet of pogos deployed, they would ~all~ be paperweights now. and for so long as we use the cpp turd, there can be no guarantee of this kind of thing not happening in the future.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38689 @ 0.00054986 = 21.2735 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Logged on 05-07-2015 15:58:04; mats: iirc usg has provided four frigates for naval defense, a pathetic number in any case that could not stop any mildly determined attempt to storm the island
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23400 @ 0.00054986 = 12.8667 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 05-07-2015 16:30:55; ben_vulpes: you have the weirdest fetishes.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10100 @ 0.00052461 = 5.2986 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9850 @ 0.00052461 = 5.1674 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 05-07-2015 17:59:30; asciilifeform: also interestingly, it has 10 peers and no tx garbage scrolling in debug.log
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32250 @ 0.00053155 = 17.1425 BTC [+]
mats: HT does 'hax for hire' as USG subcontractor. lulz.
mats: half a tb of emails and code there.
☟︎ mats: (they got pwned, if that wasn't clear)
mod6: ( & perhaps a different tool )
ag3nt_zer0: just looking at the log here and feeling stupid haha
decimation: critical self examination is the root of learning
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 00:47:24; mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> resolution of thoughtchain forks is not even close to a solved problem. << the resolution per se is probably as you point out not even approachable as a problem, which is unsurprising seeing how it logically predates the notion of problem. nevertheless, the resolution of THE PROBLEM of thoughtchain forks is actually a very well understood thing.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8300 @ 0.00052461 = 4.3543 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 00:47:52; mircea_popescu: because i am so amused that someone could use the relatively advanced keyboard but not know how to do THAT.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20400 @ 0.00053137 = 10.8399 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 02:22:58; mats: half a tb of emails and code there.
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 01:23:43; mats: i haven't noticed any actual bugs, but its apparent the person who wrote the port literally just copied it over without using python idioms like factories
mats: you'll not enjoy reading the key server code then
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77300 @ 0.00052897 = 40.8894 BTC [-] {3}
mats: most complicated machinery is flask and a postgres wrapper
mats: you'll just have to find out
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39700 @ 0.00052059 = 20.6674 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: Logged on 05-07-2015 20:06:46; williamdunne: danielpbarron: Twitter's URL shortening is unpredictable. Basically it just checks if it can fit in 140 characters pre-shortening and trims what won't
decimation: "if you don't have a debt jubileee it's like you are shoveling jews into the furnace"
williamdunne: danielpbarron: Thanks, I'll fix it to take that into account tomorrow
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3789 @ 0.00052781 = 1.9999 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50724 @ 0.00052781 = 26.7726 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 00:50:10; mircea_popescu: the sad result of post-war welfarism being that "the west" is now in this sad position where the brightest minds are in the heads of some unwashed horde somewhere in the mideast.
decimation: not to mention the generations of inbreeding
decimation: nevertheless, isis is certainly where you would find someone who knows how to survive a shitstorm
mats: iirc second cousins are safe
mats: asciilifeform: after some consultation with my betters, one had this to say: "I'm not sure you can blame that on undefined behavior, except insofar as a SIGFPE is just as valid as nasal demons and such at that point."
mats: "it is not a case of the compiler doing something crazy because of undefined behavior."
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 00:48:54; mircea_popescu: decimation their branchline is in no sense backwards. it is currently the consensus of thinking people (alf said "ru", but really, i agree, everyone with any sense agrees, ru is no determinant) that they are in point of fact broadly correct,
decimation: asciilifeform: I've made those flamegraphs before, used 'perf' tool
decimation: but getting it to cough up full stacktraces is a pain in the ass
decimation: need libunwind, gdb configured correctly, etc
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 01:24:01; mircea_popescu: "you wanted to benefit from responsible disclosure protections, you should have been in the wot" "but at the time i made that decision it seemed a no brainer, why expend the effort" "right. this is why you die."
decimation: ironically usg uses the same formula for 'extending protection'
decimation: then again, who are the innocents using openssl to secure themselves?
decimation: well, then why not congratulate, rather than roast, said devil?
decimation: even microsoft needs a tcp/ip stack - reminds me of your blog post on 'the burden of supporting all the world'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12448 @ 0.00052781 = 6.5702 BTC [+]
decimation: asciilifeform: what gets my goat are the constant pleadings for money money and power to do 'cyber'
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14700 @ 0.00054986 = 8.0829 BTC [+] {2}
decimation: asciilifeform: this is why the ru military were able to make fighters that match nato's for orders of magnitude less cash
decimation: they only had to build planes, not employ zombies
decimation: the supreme irony being that the story is that 'nato won' because of capitalist efficency
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6049 @ 0.00053927 = 3.262 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: <mats> HT does 'hax for hire' as USG subcontractor. lulz. << mmmyeah
mircea_popescu: maybne iof anyone feels like posting the link where doxygen / svg experts gather.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i am deliberately trampling that convention. fuck them.
mircea_popescu: <mats> you'll not enjoy reading the key server code then << im kinda curious how this thing will go down :D
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it is not practical to keep tb sized backups on webservers. make a local copy, put on torrents.
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> just think of the moral degeneration from ~that~ << those grapes aren't whine yet.
ben_vulpes: jesus shit i blink and y'all crap out 400 lines?
mircea_popescu: an' with that, im off. have a great 5th of july erryone.
decimation: ben_vulpes: I switched to erc, have seen the light
ben_vulpes: decimation: lmk if you come up with an acceptable bouncer situation.
ben_vulpes: sitrep: freshly provisioned server builds boost, bdb and openssl w/out a hitch, barfs on compiling bitcoind because lacking i b'leev integer retardation patch
ben_vulpes: decimation: running more than one emacs chafes.
ben_vulpes: decimation: have you looked into mosh?
decimation: is that one of those client/server deals?
ben_vulpes: can't say as i can tell from your question.
decimation: oh wait is that the supposed ssh replacement
ben_vulpes: but very good tool for persistent terminals on remote hosts.
decimation: yeah I get what you mean about more than one emacs
ben_vulpes: good with high latency, network-hopping, all of the travails of diginomad life.
decimation: want to cut/paste arbitrary things in emacs
ben_vulpes: i ran both znc and weechat as bouncers for a while
decimation: heh yeah I looked at the znc config as said 'fuck this shit'
ben_vulpes: oh you rejected it before you figured out that editing the config files while the thing waas running would fly it straight into the wall at 0.8 mach?
ben_vulpes: i'm saying that my nose ain't that good yet
decimation: heh do a few cycles in the gentoo barrel
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell mircea_popescu an irc bouncer job advert wouldn't go amiss
☟︎ ben_vulpes: <cazalla> the irish have been flooding aussie shores for the past few years << ugh i met another ozzie today
ben_vulpes: decimation: re gossipd errything's gonna have to be reimplemented atop it
ben_vulpes: irc bouncer implementation's a good thing to have in the interim.
decimation: heh. I'm not much of a lisp guy, but the ones I know aren't a fan of emacs lisp
ben_vulpes: <cazalla> the irish have been flooding aussie shores for the past few years << met another ozzie this wknd
ben_vulpes: look i'm just trying to make a mil or 5 over here
decimation: yeah, I've seen the screenshots for 'zmacs'
ben_vulpes: no time for reimplementing elisp or...emacs even.
decimation: one day I will fire up that symbolics emulator
ben_vulpes: although a barebones lisp editor is tempting.
decimation: yeah I think I'm going to play with phf's blockchain code he wrote in lisp as an education
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> with a yo ho ho << and a bottle of fun!
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6900 @ 0.00054986 = 3.794 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: decimation: take a look at binary-types, per asciilifeform's suggestion
decimation: by the way my stator node is slow as balls, I"m not sure if it's my machine or the node
decimation: it's taken like 8 hours to go 10k blocks
ben_vulpes: so you're not sure if node code, machine host or seed.
ben_vulpes: try herr popescus node or perhaps herr form's
ben_vulpes: testing this thing is a goddamn nightmare.
decimation: yes, you basically have to devote a fulll machine to it
☟︎ cazalla: ben_vulpes, so you base an entire nation on the few you've met.. gee get a load of this racist
☟︎ decimation: he's gonna complain about australian shitposting now
ben_vulpes: hey i'm an empiricist what do you want
ben_vulpes: well for as long as nobody here uses shithouse.tv nothing here can be considered actual shitposting.
ben_vulpes: <williamdunne> cazalla: Comment deleted, just as I was about to make a witicism << witticism, like witty
ben_vulpes: may you stay long when it's good for you and go short when it's good for you, caz
decimation: that means chinamen can pay less for your ores
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7550 @ 0.000548 = 4.1374 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 05-07-2015 11:18:09; punkman: on a related note, kinda annoying reading through logs and trying to read all those expired dpastes
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34238 @ 0.00054802 = 18.7631 BTC [+] {2}
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> (oop systems which aren't clos (or possibly smalltalk's, and generally meta-object-able) are like btc securities exchanges which aren't mpex.) << by virtue of living in the shit your whole life, you'll be able to read it.
ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> (though there is some debate as to whether it matters ~which~ type of cousin one fucks) << generally just the girls
☟︎ ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> they are exactly the same to me. << and your own zero days?
ben_vulpes: <decimation> heh do a few cycles in the gentoo barrel << tomorrow mayhap. tonight, the canadians have interesting ingestibles.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20050 @ 0.00053927 = 10.8124 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44333 @ 0.00053927 = 23.9075 BTC [-]
cazalla: well Yanis Varoufakis fell on his sword, back to valve to make more hats i guess
punkman: guess the job doesn't pay well enough
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6000 @ 0.00054101 = 3.2461 BTC [+]
punkman: "The Greek Premier Alexis Tsipras is suffering from Herpes Labialis due to the stress of the last days."
punkman: "I was running bitcoin core version 0.9 which accepted an invalid chain not adhering to the BIP66 protocol changes. This prompted me to upgrade immediately, however the new version is taking the already accepted blocks as already verified."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41200 @ 0.00053783 = 22.1586 BTC [-] {3}
BingoBoingo: punkman: Want to cover the latest stuff on the Greek beat?
jurov: <mircea_popescu> [20150706 01:30] btw, jurov, did you want some pogos shipped << yes davout offered but then went silent
☟︎ punkman: BingoBoingo: was thinking of a "bailout timeline" thing after the dust settles
jurov: and call graph not mentioned, too
cazalla: with the amount of confiscated hand guns featured on this twitter account, how the fuck does it not make the news erry day or is it simply the case they run the story every 3 months to keep to fresh
assbot: BtcAlpha.com F.MPIF Tracker estimated NAV per share: 0.00021447 B (Total: 426.11 B). Delta: 0.15 B. Last trade for F.MPIF on MPEX was at 0.000207 BTC [+]
assbot: Your actions are useless.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33950 @ 0.00053248 = 18.0777 BTC [-] {4}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15050 @ 0.000528 = 7.9464 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 05:11:49; ben_vulpes: ;;later tell mircea_popescu an irc bouncer job advert wouldn't go amiss
jurov: and generally find whole znc thing palatable
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59550 @ 0.000528 = 31.4424 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 55400 @ 0.00054108 = 29.9758 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15800 @ 0.00054464 = 8.6053 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38300 @ 0.00055101 = 21.1037 BTC [+] {2}
Drhelmut: thx jurov, too lazy to voice myself
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20457 @ 0.00055282 = 11.309 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 03:14:34; asciilifeform: kakobrekla, anybody else: can we get a mirror of that half-megatonne of shit ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17315 @ 0.00053781 = 9.3122 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38389 @ 0.00053956 = 20.7132 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33450 @ 0.00053244 = 17.8101 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12600 @ 0.00053694 = 6.7654 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 65700 @ 0.00052437 = 34.4511 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 88450 @ 0.00053608 = 47.4163 BTC [+] {4}
mats: i just wanna read the code to their tools tbh
jurov: anyonen has working torrent/magnet link?
jurov: i found one, it's stalling
jurov: or anyone downloaded it already?
mircea_popescu: kakobrekla apparently a dump of emails and other things
jurov: most of googling leads to a 10M PDF which i'm loathing to touch
jurov: they waited until noone was on watch in #b-a
assbot: Hacking Team wird zu Hacked Team: 400 GB interne Daten von Überwachungssoftware-Hersteller veröffentlicht | netzpolitik.org ... (
http://bit.ly/1J0fWpp )
jurov: but my deluge has serious problem digesting there linked torrent
jurov: gotta wait and see
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14300 @ 0.00053741 = 7.685 BTC [+]
jurov: haha and vuze says "too large to be a torrent"
jurov: apparetly my pr0n toolchain of choice is insufficient for this task
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19800 @ 0.00054262 = 10.7439 BTC [+]
jurov: kakobrekla: using "Ein Torrent"?
kakobrekla: fellows screenshot, from twitter mega torrent
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44913 @ 0.00053179 = 23.8843 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: ok well since everyone thinks this so important ima have a machine contribute too, just fgor the seeding
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4269 @ 0.00052534 = 2.2427 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: The latest Tweets from Christian Pozzi (@christian_pozzi): "We are closing down. Bye Saudi Arabia. You paid us well. Allahuhakbah."
williamdunne: kakobrekla: I particularly like that it includes their router password
williamdunne: Mmm struggling to find as much as a magnet link for this
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63766 @ 0.00051937 = 33.1181 BTC [-] {4}
mircea_popescu: maybe magnet:?dn=Hacked+Team&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fcoppersurfer.tk%3A6969%2Fannounce&xt=urn%3Abtih%3AKFQDX74I4CQ3HOWTSYTBJF4JFHE5E2KV ?
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 05:19:08; decimation: yes, you basically have to devote a fulll machine to it
shinohai: @ jurov did u manage to get the torrent yet?
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 05:20:41; cazalla: ben_vulpes, so you base an entire nation on the few you've met.. gee get a load of this racist
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 05:35:37; ben_vulpes: <asciilifeform> (though there is some debate as to whether it matters ~which~ type of cousin one fucks) << generally just the girls
mircea_popescu: "Yanis Varoufakis, Greece's embattled finance minister, has resigned his post,"
mircea_popescu: "It is, therefore, essential that the great capital bestowed upon our government by the splendid NO vote be invested immediately into a YES to a proper resolution – to an agreement that involves debt restructuring, less austerity, redistribution in favour of the needy, and real reforms."
mircea_popescu: real reforms = raping "the needy" with a pointed stick. it is morally wrong to be needy and full fucking stop.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64624 @ 0.00051488 = 33.2736 BTC [-] {2}
jurov: shinohai: yes, it works wrt rtorrent, 1% done
shinohai: Aweome jurov, that is a hefty dump for sure
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 07:26:33; jurov: <mircea_popescu> [20150706 01:30] btw, jurov, did you want some pogos shipped << yes davout offered but then went silent
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57200 @ 0.00051412 = 29.4077 BTC [-] {3}
jurov: if it's shipped from murica maybe it's better to disassemble them, mark as "parts" so that customs aren't tempted to "fix" the declared price
davout: wasn't it only friday?
jurov: yes i immediately pm'd you never got a reply
shinohai is eagerly waiting on his pogo to arrive this week.
davout: i did take note, planning on sending them during the week
jurov: aha ok, thanks you all, send as many as you wish, i can forward them
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 181850 @ 0.00051204 = 93.1145 BTC [-] {5}
jurov: lol, collect ssds from scrap?
mircea_popescu: i dunno. whatever works. but you'll want a dozen ssds to run a dozen pogos.
davout: with a bit of luck you'll be at the other end of the classical reddit: "o, i dumped my hdd with over 9000 btc on it and now i'm shoveling through the landfill"
jurov: oh. i was not under impression that i'll be running them all. but 4-5 can be defo arranged
williamdunne: davout: That actually resulted in a small army of people shovelling through a landfill
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25000 @ 0.00053558 = 13.3895 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22617 @ 0.00052932 = 11.9716 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18980 @ 0.00053793 = 10.2099 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5970 @ 0.00054468 = 3.2517 BTC [+]
shinohai: I like your name for it better williamdunne
punkman: "European Parliament president: Need to urgently discuss humanitarian aid for Greece"
shinohai: > Bob controls a worldwide public record of all transactions and is provably arbitrary. We call this record, the Bobchain.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35000 @ 0.00054893 = 19.2126 BTC [+] {2}
punkman: "The only limit on what you can do with Intheoreum is Bob himself. The Bobchain is nothing more than a man in a room maintaining the state of the intheoreum network with Number 2 Pencil technology."
williamdunne: Intheoreum 1.0 will uses a cutting edge client/server hybrid peer to peer model. Bob is simultaneously your slave and your master. Our testing phase is complete and the Bobchain is live.
williamdunne: "As worldwide interest in the Intheorum network increases success may overwhelm Bob alone. Foreseeing this problem we are planning Inthereum 2.0 technology to incorporate JENNYCHAIN, TIMCHAIN, SALLYCHAIN technology."
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 114950 @ 0.00055498 = 63.795 BTC [+] {6}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42250 @ 0.00055649 = 23.5117 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33500 @ 0.0005593 = 18.7366 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9900 @ 0.00055956 = 5.5396 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24151 @ 0.00055704 = 13.4531 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29050 @ 0.00055503 = 16.1236 BTC [-] {2}
punkman: asciilifeform: does it sit there doing nothing while wedged?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35168 @ 0.00055985 = 19.6888 BTC [+] {2}
pete_dushenski: is anyone actively typing up a eulogy for varoufakis ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9898 @ 0.00055425 = 5.486 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7600 @ 0.0005373 = 4.0835 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7750 @ 0.00054907 = 4.2553 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron ideally take them apart and send them as parts he says
☟︎ mircea_popescu: asciilifeform of course, if phuctor is this starved for io, would it be a good idea to move that thing to ssd ? maybe even raid ?
☟︎ danielpbarron: apart as in unscrew the plastic shell of each unit?
mircea_popescu: i always thought ram and cpu are the constraints there
shinohai: I should be so clever as to come up with ideas like this, to relieve redditors of their monies.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3719 @ 0.00053775 = 1.9999 BTC [-]
gribble: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 278.01, Best ask: 278.11, Bid-ask spread: 0.10000, Last trade: 278.13, 24 hour volume: 71997.83403132, 24 hour low: 262.2, 24 hour high: 278.69, 24 hour vwap: None
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21718 @ 0.00053775 = 11.6789 BTC [-]
punkman: asciilifeform: wtf does that thing even care about timestamps << for adjusting difficulty
ben_vulpes: punkman: shouldn't that be a function of the number of blocks since the last difficulty adjustment?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20350 @ 0.00054389 = 11.0682 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44400 @ 0.00054778 = 24.3214 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: ben_vulpes: yes it is, but also time elapsed
punkman: ben_vulpes: network needs to know how long it's been in human time since last retarget
☟︎ kakobrekla: speed is a function of time and distance, so you need to know how much time has passed in the 2016 blocks, right?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11433 @ 0.00052855 = 6.0429 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10632 @ 0.00052055 = 5.5345 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 16:20:00; punkman: ben_vulpes: network needs to know how long it's been in human time since last retarget
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 15:03:24; mircea_popescu: danielpbarron ideally take them apart and send them as parts he says
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 15:03:54; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform of course, if phuctor is this starved for io, would it be a good idea to move that thing to ssd ? maybe even raid ?
punkman: ascii_field:rejects too far in the future because it wants to keep "network time" within some bounds
ascii_field: seems like logical thing to do would be to accept the block but not move the local epoch time if the block's time is an outlier ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17900 @ 0.00051493 = 9.2172 BTC [-] {2}
punkman: ascii_field: not sure what you mean with "but not move the local epoch time"
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 138856 @ 0.00054257 = 75.3391 BTC [+] {5}
assbot: real-bitcoin/main.cpp at 6af2c99ad7cf02f95aa650262dea0057051f13cd · extempore/real-bitcoin · GitHub ... (
http://bit.ly/1KH6YmO )
assbot: real-bitcoin/util.cpp at 6af2c99ad7cf02f95aa650262dea0057051f13cd · extempore/real-bitcoin · GitHub ... (
http://bit.ly/1KH6YDd )
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19500 @ 0.00055948 = 10.9099 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46700 @ 0.00056184 = 26.2379 BTC [+] {5}
ben_vulpes: excellent long term cost reduction strategy imho
ascii_field: in other nyooz, my portable test node is synced.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42346 @ 0.00056446 = 23.9026 BTC [+] {3}
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: what's your seeder IP again?
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 12:15:59; mircea_popescu: not unless you get amir taaki to "open source" it.
ben_vulpes: stuck on a particular block, or still syncing?
mats: ain't the net a grand place?
ben_vulpes: ascii_field: do cli flags get auto-munged into bitcoin.conf flags?
ben_vulpes: take your myip flag - is that automagically a .conf file option as well?
ascii_field: gotta love how the morons had their private keys thrown to the wind
ascii_field: gotta also love the clean, well-commented (italian!) cpp
ascii_field: not some sp4mz0r, just a normal software co.
ascii_field: they just happen to write turdware for usg.
trinque: anyone know offhand if armv5tel-softfloat is the appropriate arch for pogo?
☟︎ assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61022 @ 0.00056481 = 34.4658 BTC [+] {3}
trinque: if not, we'll find out I suppose shortly
ben_vulpes: does anyone know at a high level how nginx does the "swap binary while running" trick?
ben_vulpes: trinque: is that info missing from asciilifeform's post to the ml?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 113316 @ 0.00056775 = 64.3352 BTC [+] {6}
trinque: ben_vulpes: oh I can look, just poking your caches first
trinque: I tried building stator with arm-linux-gnueabi and it segfaults on the pogo
trinque: trying to get some repeatable builds going for arm
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 17:37:21; trinque: anyone know offhand if armv5tel-softfloat is the appropriate arch for pogo?
ascii_field: the buildroot gives you the complete toolchain you need, independently from that of the box you're on
ascii_field: (for the exact instruction set supported, see the marvell datasheet posted ~6 mo. ago.)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 84900 @ 0.0005698 = 48.376 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28100 @ 0.00056706 = 15.9344 BTC [-]
ascii_field: anyone who sees a 'martian' version number from nosuchlabs public node, please don't be alarmed. running an experiment today, to determine whether we are being corralled by gavinists using advertised version constant
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: if you liked clements tall tales, you might get a kick out of Glynn-Ward's "Glamour of British Columbia"
ben_vulpes: "The English come out and travel through, knowing all about everything beforehand, as the English always do; and, having set standards, they compare the Fraser to the Thames (former too wide) and the Selkirks to the Cotswolds (former too high). They get out to spend a day or so at Lake Louise or Jasper, then get into the train again and stay there till they reach Vancouver. Then they go back to England and give vague lectures in town
ben_vulpes: halls, about "great open spaces" and "the need for a population." But they know nothing of the real British Columbia.
ascii_field: so i'm nearly certain that the timestamp ~2h epoch time window is the reason for wedged 0.5.x nodes, at this point
ben_vulpes: The Americans come, with plenty of money, and stay at the much-advertised hotels, gulping down the Rockies in predigested doses, thenrace through in a Pullman car to the next big hotel on the coast. And how can they know anything of the province?
kakobrekla: >but I can't fake the hashing power it needs to
kakobrekla: generate one year's worth of hashes. < isnt this one year actually 10 min ?
ben_vulpes: The little Jap who, laughing up and down his sleeve goes cheerfully about his business in a gas-boat up the coast, or picks out the best small-fruit land in the country; the ubiquitous Chinaman, steadily cornering all the loose cash in the land -- of a surety these two know more of British Columbia than most white men!
ascii_field: kakobrekla: ^ if there were no record of the early blocks - then yes
ben_vulpes: ascii_field: fascinating! what gears are failing to mesh here?
kakobrekla: >you won't gain much by lying to your peers since your block won't be
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20200 @ 0.00056597 = 11.4326 BTC [-] {2}
ben_vulpes: Story has it that he returned to Hazelton, once, after a trip up the Telegraph Trail, and there he found out that he had missed the farthest cabin of all, over two hundred miles away, and there were two men up there left without supplies for the winter. Either the Government had not made the tale of the cabins clear or C. B. himself had miscalculated. However that may have been, the plain fact remained that these two men had to be
☟︎ ben_vulpes: supplied -- and it was getting late in the autumn.
ben_vulpes: So C. B. at once set off north again witha pack-train of sixty-eight horses. He had no very great hope of being able to make his destination before the hard weather came on, but he traveled with all the speed possible, to get over the worst places on the trail before ths first snow fell. But as ill-luck would have it, it began to snow one night just as he came to the rock ledges where the going was bad at the best of times. It snowed
ben_vulpes: all next day and the following night without any let-up.
ben_vulpes: Every now and then a horse would miss its footing and go over, sometimes into the rushing river below, to be lost forever. Then it froze, and the going was hopeless. One by one the horses slipped and went down until it was impossible to go onward. C. B. shrugged his shoulders and altered his plans.
ben_vulpes: Those supplies had to be delivered to the men patiently waiting for them at the far end of the trail, So he cached the supplies, hoiseted as many carcases of the dead horses as possible into trees where the wolves could not get them, and went all the way back to Hazelton to get dog-teams.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7541 @ 0.00055906 = 4.2159 BTC [-] {2}
ben_vulpes: Again he started out, this time with a hundred and twenty-eight dogs, and when he came to the place where he had turned back, he was able to feed the dogs on dead horse-meat, and so get through to the cabin where to two men were waiting. But on the return trip, the going was heavy and slow and he found that the worlves had reached the cache of horse-meat and finished it up, so the dogs were short of food and though he killed one after
ben_vulpes: another to feed the rest, they weakend and died on the trail.
ben_vulpes: So it was that C. B. returned to Hazelton afoot, limping into the hotel one snowy night in midwinter, "broke to the wide", but otherwise unconcerned.
ben_vulpes: "Oh, well, I had the contract, and I had to fill it!" And that was all he said.
ben_vulpes: ^^ the wot at work. ridiculous numbers aside, we tell stories of heroic deeds performed in service of the papers we sign.
ben_vulpes: ;;later tell pete_dushenski whaddaya know about this glynn-ward character?
☟︎ assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33103 @ 0.00055826 = 18.4801 BTC [-]
hdbuck: hello mircea_popescu, just passing by to say thx for the rating
ben_vulpes: ascii_field: are blocks from headers-only miners coming out with timestamps too far in the future?
jurov: ben_vulpes: nginx prolly just exec()s itself
ascii_field: ben_vulpes: i do not yet know the answer to this
ben_vulpes: jurov: there's a bit more than that. did you read my subsequent link?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3397 @ 0.00055339 = 1.8799 BTC [-]
ascii_field: ;;later tell mircea_popescu turns out it was the epoch time
ascii_field: (not the umd box. though betcha it belongs to the umd scamlab)
assbot: real-bitcoin/main.cpp at 6af2c99ad7cf02f95aa650262dea0057051f13cd · extempore/real-bitcoin · GitHub ... (
http://bit.ly/1M88uLT )
ben_vulpes: is this a direct result of headers only mining?
ascii_field: i had the box set to my local time instead of gmt
ascii_field: but what this means is that no, the thing won't correct for clock offset
ben_vulpes: blee. so block validation relies on some absolute coordinated time?
ben_vulpes: jesus shit. we'll have to run our own ntp cluster next.
ascii_field: if |your_epoch - block_epoch| > 2hour then lose
ben_vulpes: node has been wedged for more than a lunch iirc
ascii_field: i knew the basic fact of. but given as the box displayed correct wall time, did not think of it
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46050 @ 0.00055682 = 25.6416 BTC [+] {2}
kakobrekla: 'your_epoch' is 'network-adjusted time' isnt it
ascii_field: kakobrekla: theoretically, epoch time is 'one for all of us, like victory'
kakobrekla: >A timestamp is accepted as valid if it is greater than the median timestamp of previous 11 blocks, and less than the network-adjusted time + 2 hours. "Network-adjusted time" is the median of the timestamps returned by all nodes connected to you.
ascii_field: but since i refuse to run ntp on the box, i ended up setting date manually when i was given it
mircea_popescu: ascii_field i have nfi why unixtime "locales" are implemented so braindamagedly anyway. all machines should have the same exact integer for time. then if you wish to localize it, localize it on top of that
☟︎☟︎ ascii_field: also i verified that if version constant is set to 99999,
https://getaddr.bitnodes.io agrees to see the node. unless someone gives a fuck, i will set it back to 0.5.4-beta later today
mircea_popescu: how the fuck we ended up with this situation where diff machiens have unequal times is beyond me
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: it was intended to work as you stated above
ben_vulpes: <ascii_field> also i verified that if version constant is set to 99999,
https://getaddr.bitnodes.io agrees to see the node. unless someone gives a fuck, i will set it back to 0.5.4-beta later today << eeeheuhe
ben_vulpes: i actually think setting version to $maxint is a pretty great idea.
ben_vulpes: why advertise version instead of just responding to network messages?
mircea_popescu: if you mined and set the block version to maxint it might.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: it doesn't make a practical difference, but it pins a pointless magic variable at its "infinity" value, in the zero, one infinity mapping.
ascii_field: ben_vulpes: i brought up this point before. asked mircea_popescu why we insist on making it so easy for gavinists to wall off our net from the rubes. iirc mircea_popescu said 'fuck them all'
ben_vulpes: 1 be "honest" advertise some "version"
ben_vulpes: 2 be stealthy, advertise whatever "version" is "current" with the shitgnomes
ben_vulpes: 3 say "fu this shit is wrong and stupid", set version to $maxint
ben_vulpes: perhaps should be configgable for stealth in production.
ben_vulpes: trivial patch to apply for anyone who's vested.
☟︎ kakobrekla: i dont see how maxint is better than '0' except for the pride parade
ascii_field: they could still attempt to filter, but it would have to be an open declaration of war. something the gavinists are rather averse to
☟︎ ben_vulpes: kakobrekla: there's logic in even the RI codebase that does derpy shit if version numbers are below some critical value.
ben_vulpes: ergo we can only ratchet forward. like evolution.
kakobrekla: wait , and you want this to remain in?
ascii_field: kakobrekla: fact is, if one of our nodes says 'ver 0', everyone it connects to will throw turds in its face
trinque: the thing's a network after all...
ascii_field: kakobrekla: when we move to alpha centauri with own miners - we can stop
ben_vulpes: ascii_field: actually this bears testing too.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27294 @ 0.00054821 = 14.9628 BTC [-] {2}
ben_vulpes: "does a node with version == 0 fail to sync?"
ben_vulpes can barf up this patch sometime this week if not beaten to punch
ben_vulpes: because recompiling bitcoin to set its version number is fucking retarded.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23256 @ 0.00052653 = 12.245 BTC [-]
ben_vulpes also suspects that alf is holding this patch in abeyance
kakobrekla: also try empty value while you are at it
jurov votes for ver. num. 1337
ascii_field: when we get own planet, with own miners, then - all the solipsism you like
ascii_field: until then, we get wedged nodes and other joys
ascii_field: ben_vulpes: speaking here of block ver constant
ascii_field: the other one appears to only affect 'phone books', which i'm not even certain matter
ascii_field: (other than the low ver. corner cases mentioned earlier)
kakobrekla: eh block ver doesnt not even matter until you can produce a block
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25700 @ 0.00052595 = 13.5169 BTC [-] {2}
ascii_field: not to mention that ANY AND ALL hardcoded addrs ~will~ be targets
ascii_field: hitler literally has a button that can set it to whatever.
trinque: could you use the same sort of logic ntpd does against block timestamps?
ascii_field: any and all turds that claim to be blocks ?
trinque: seems you'd have to trust at least one node
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16854 @ 0.00053798 = 9.0671 BTC [+]
ascii_field: part of block validation is 'is the timestamp <2h from now'
kakobrekla: but time now is also determined by your peers
ascii_field: this is, incidentally, a much harder problem than the invention of bitcoin
punkman: "Revenue from new accounts : 0 BTC" oh noes
ascii_field: perhaps the day finally came when everyone who could ever afford it - has bought
trinque: so there's "network adjusted time" right?
trinque: that's already just the median time of the peers you know
ascii_field: trinque: realize that this can be manipulated by the enemy
trinque: I don't see a way of getting the time that *doesn't* suffer from that
ascii_field: there ~is~ the way of having a working clock
trinque: aside from having been set by me, using my cesium clock, then running on battery with an RTC thereafter
ascii_field: even a $1 rtc chip, the kind found on old pc mobos, would suffice
trinque: ascii_field: does not seem there's any sense in continuing on trying to do something distributed without an rtc
ascii_field: trinque: realize that without pogo, you're paying literally 10+ TIMES more per node.
ascii_field: the only solution i can presently think of is a variant of ntp over gossipd.
punkman: solder rtc to serial interface?
trinque: surely there's a tiny USB rtc
ascii_field: trinque: yes. costs about what the pogo does
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26700 @ 0.00056838 = 15.1757 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: have we fixed the peer selection? if peers are to be configured manually, they are trustworthy enough to fetch time from, no?
trinque: jurov: that was my thought.
trinque: but then I suppose that suffers from attacks against the routing involved to get to that IP
trinque: incidentally I have found tinc to be rather fucking nice for p2p networking
jurov: okay, but line must be drawn somewhere
jurov: i can't imagine what would have to be done if you expect your own pipe to be utterly hostile
trinque: I dunno any additional complexity is "cheaper" than the extra 25 bucks or w/e for the clock
ascii_field: jurov: realize that, at the moment, we do not have separate code for servicing peers you added manually vs ones dredged up from the seedlist
☟︎ ascii_field: and yes, i expect the pipe to be maximally hostile
ascii_field: but more than anything, i expect that any centralized points of failure ~will~ be usgized
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51977 @ 0.00056989 = 29.6212 BTC [+] {5}
trinque: this tlsdate thing is hilarious
ascii_field: trinque: aha, just when i thought that nothing could be more retarded than ntp
trinque: there's a github repo out there for everything
trinque: so you don't like the outboard rtc?
punkman: the parasitic timestamp fetching is not a bad idea though
trinque: $50 does not seem prohibitive, but k
ascii_field: trinque: 50 is almost TRIPLE the cost of a pogo
trinque: was going off "double" and including pogo
ascii_field: a solution that HALVES our fleet is ispo facto retarded!
ascii_field: picture an admiral agreeing to lose 'only half' of his fleet
trinque: but actual cost of a vessel is not yet determined
trinque: maybe without the rtc it's a leaky boat
trinque: but anyhow, could be retarded, sure
trinque will ponder the mysteries of pogotime over food matter
ascii_field: even if the thing had a battery-backed otc, there would remain the question of how to set it
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53197 @ 0.00057204 = 30.4308 BTC [+] {3}
ascii_field: i am reaching the conclusion that: to the extent bitcoin relies on political time AT ALL, it is broken.
ben_vulpes: ascii_field:-connect means "ultimately trusted".
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11650 @ 0.00055261 = 6.4379 BTC [-]
ascii_field: ben_vulpes: there wouldn't be any '-connect' on pogo net
ascii_field: given that it turns your node into a boat anchor
ascii_field: it'd have to warm up with a few 'addnode's pointing to working boxes, to run at all, yes
ascii_field: but given as the protocol has no authentication, these could vomit forth literally anything
ben_vulpes: i'm beginning to suspect that booting bitcoin nodes cannot be automated in the same way that diddling one's gpg cannot be automated.
☟︎ kakobrekla: <ascii_field> trinque: 50 is almost TRIPLE the cost of a pogo < if you dont include ssd you dont have a working node
ascii_field: kakobrekla: ssd is often 'free' - rip out of a retired laptop
ben_vulpes: i must derp my ass down the coast now, however.
jurov: i'm eyeing 64GB SSDs for 36 euro
jurov: should last 2 years, hoepfully then there will be sth much cheaper
jurov: i don't have anything around to rip
kakobrekla: ascii_field> kakobrekla: ssd is often 'free' - rip out of a retired laptop < maybe that is true for you and me but not the majority i dont think
ascii_field: kakobrekla: even so, it is a bog-standard consumer product and could be obtained with massive bulk discount if we were to try in earnest
jurov: for example eeepcs had 8/19G SSDs, not suitable
ascii_field: and presently, i am failing to turn up usb rtc modules for any price on mass market
jurov: ssd business is so brisk, i doubt very much there will be significant bulk discounts
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9350 @ 0.00057267 = 5.3545 BTC [+]
ascii_field: "errors" : "EXCEPTION: St12out_of_range \nCInv::GetCommand() : type=3 unknown type \nbitcoin in ProcessMessage() \n"
jurov: or $20 only fake 4G chips
shinohai wants to start a pogo bitnode factory, ensure domination of therealbitcoin
ascii_field: ... and the node is 2 blocks ahead of 'blockchain.info'
ascii_field: shinohai: good luck obtaining so much as ONE system-on-chip for the prototype
ascii_field: i've been trying for ~6 months and could not.
ascii_field: it appears to be utterly impossible to obtain the key components outside of cn
punkman: ascii_field: I think that error means node is sending you command only present in later nodes
punkman: need mega-debug-sanity patch
kakobrekla fuckin hates the days when he has to worry about britneychain
ascii_field: and shows that the gavinists are busy bees, stuffing the britneychain full of liquid shit
ascii_field: unless you'd like to personally solder these to all 5,000 theoretical pogos
jurov: *shrug*. so? throw usbserial chip in?
ascii_field: just opening that plastic box is already adding more labour cost than everything we previously considered to be involved in setup put together
☟︎ jurov: surely there are monkeys around that can solver that
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 18:49:17; mircea_popescu: ascii_field i have nfi why unixtime "locales" are implemented so braindamagedly anyway. all machines should have the same exact integer for time. then if you wish to localize it, localize it on top of that
decimation: actually happens on linux as I understand. there's a thing
ascii_field: jurov: involving ~any~ monkey at all is astronomically outside of what we expected the cost to be.
trinque: jurov: I have no slave monkeys that can solder
ascii_field: right now, our pictured supply chain looks like 'any pogo -> any ethernet jack'
☟︎ ascii_field: if there is 'monkey' in between those, add many times the cost in transportation at the least.
jurov: yes. and you so like to paint yourself into corner
ascii_field: jurov probably noticed that just moving one of these from america to europe doubles the cost.
punkman: "[OPEN] Reimplement pogo in chinese"
decimation: why not write a lightweight client that gets the time from trusted bitcoind node network?
ascii_field: decimation: because bitcoin doesn't use crypto
ascii_field: there is no such thing as a 'trusted node'
ascii_field: whether a block can be 'latest' depends on local time!
decimation: if you actually want to keep time offline it's not gonna be cheap or easy
jurov: then you painted yourself to a corner and need tiny webserver for user to set time manually
jurov: danielpbarron: how many?
ascii_field: jurov: not sure if it is so much of a corner. perhaps it is possible to get a 'good enough' picture of political time via some clever means
decimation: no need to run ntp, just ask for time once
jurov: that's not clever enough for alf
decimation: lol so you are gonna get diddled time?
danielpbarron: a few of the inner plastic clips got cracked in the de-shelling process but they should still click back together no problem
decimation: okay if we are taking it that level, then you really need non-network time
decimation: maybe it can come with a plug-in sextant?
trinque: some way of signaling current time via invalid transactions?
☟︎ ascii_field: i am looking forward to hearing of some answer other than soldering iron or gossipd
decimation: or use WWVB and/or DCF77 and whatever else
punkman: slavegirl must post signed timestamp every 10 minutes?
ascii_field: decimation: quickest way to make sure any kid can set your clock to whatever he wants
decimation: alright, apparently we need a #b-a radio clock transmitter too
jurov: and if we have rsa-signed time, usg will pwn or jam that too
ascii_field: and now we've turned bitcoin into a centralized turd
decimation: it was already such a turd, we are just trying to find out what to do about it
ascii_field: probably the only Right Thing (tm) solution is to somehow cleanse bitcoin of its dependence on wall time entirely
☟︎ decimation: if we are this paranoid about it, the only solution I can think of is to ship a separate box with an ethernet port
trinque: ascii_field: what's wrong with the idea of signaling via specially crafted txn?
decimation: that serves time via ntp server and has a push-button input on the front panel
ascii_field: and what is the thing to do until it hears it ?
ascii_field: decimation: gonna ship a gigabit switch also?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13392 @ 0.00056806 = 7.6075 BTC [-]
ascii_field: and now you've throttled the pogo to 10/100
jurov: well.. nuke the time-related checks altogether?
trinque: ascii_field: the script itself could be both properly signed and invalid right?
trinque: could you encode the time into it?
trinque: and consider certain addresses a valid source of time?
decimation: I find the magic box unneeded when I can get rsa signed time from a variety of places via ntp
ascii_field: decimation: the point is that these 'places' are central points of failure, and are even now controlled by the enemy
decimation: not really, nearly every non-orc (and some orc) governments and institutions have ntp
ascii_field: the point i've been trying to make is ~not~ 'let's all go eat our pistols' but that the entire fiction of political time is poisonous when applied to bitcoin
decimation: not sure about the signed part though, need to look into that
ascii_field: decimation: there is no ability to authenticate what you get from ntp connection
trinque: ascii_field: yeah, I think that is the only possible way to avoid having a magic central something
punkman: you can't have bitcoin without human time. meat rots.
trinque: having bitcoin disregard time, which I'm sure has all kinds of implications around when you may consider a given block valid
decimation: if they all give the same time, they are probably not lying
ascii_field: if they all give the same time, it is probably because hitler killed the others and took their keys
trinque: is the problem reducible to "all pogos agree on the time" ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29346 @ 0.00055261 = 16.2169 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 18:54:46; ascii_field: they could still attempt to filter, but it would have to be an open declaration of war. something the gavinists are rather averse to
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 18:54:35; ben_vulpes: trivial patch to apply for anyone who's vested.
trinque: ascii_field: and then going down that route, anyone can diddle his pogo soon as it's in hand
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 19:00:13; ben_vulpes: wait, wedge is related to version number?
ascii_field: ^ see log. i determined that it is entirely on account of epoch time
ascii_field: trinque: adjusting anything whatsoever on pogo is nontrivial for a 'civilian'
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 19:10:06; punkman: is this a first?
trinque: so this decentralized ledger thing requires centralized time
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 19:27:32; ascii_field: jurov: realize that, at the moment, we do not have separate code for servicing peers you added manually vs ones dredged up from the seedlist
mircea_popescu: why is pogo connecting to anything but good nodes again ?
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: there is presently no mechanism for 'pull blocks ONLY FROM THESE'
ascii_field: the latter turns the node into a kind of boat anchor while active
ascii_field: the former treats the added ip as equal in status to those dug up from dirt
ascii_field: but in ~both~ cases there is no protection from mitm
trinque: anybody ever looked at tinc as a starting place for a gossipd?
trinque: does p2p networking over RSA keys
decimation: time is already centralized in the sense that we are all spinning on the same planet
decimation: the question is merely 'who do you trust to tell you the correct phase of rotation'
trinque: kinda like that bitcoin thing
trinque: or if the set of things which exist does not contain the thing desired, there you have it.
punkman: what if you could do like tlsdate over ssh, you just dial random IPs at ssh port, get buncha timestamps
ascii_field: so doing anything 'randomly' will be problematic.
mike_c: i was trying to think of some way to use the block hash to determine "who" you ask for timestamps, but the list of "who" is unknowable/proveable.. ends up in the same place.
ascii_field: mike_c: all the signs point to us trying to solve the utterly wrong problem.
punkman: fried ice cream is a thing
trinque: ascii_field: is it +/- 2hrs or is it no more than 2hrs in the future?
decimation: if lizard hitler pwn's everyone's ntp servers, I think we all have bigger problems than block time epoch in bitcoin
trinque: you can of course accept a block from the past
ascii_field: because right now, hitler has, essentially, a button that makes just about the whole btc network shit its pants
trinque: say I though a block from last year at your node, I don't see why it would matter that your clock is set to tomorrow
mike_c: but if they muck with ntp they'll break themselves too
trinque: vs if you are set to yesterday and I give you a block from tomorrow
decimation: ascii_field: but that would come at the cost of fucking *all clocks for all users*
ascii_field: decimation: other users might not even notice
ascii_field: they will get apologies and a coupon for free blowjob at community whorehouse
mike_c: markets break over the stupid leap second
decimation: essentially there isn't such a thing as p2p time
decimation: for whatever reason nobody has thought to scratch that itch
ascii_field: only in so far as proof-of-work can be used
decimation: right, but that requires a trusted way to ask a bitcoind "what's the timestamp of the last verified block'
decimation: in the existing network, I suspect 99% of the miners are using ntpd traceable to some usg organ
decimation: who knew that we needed a #b-a astronomer
trinque: anyone clear on whether it's +/- 2hrs or what I said?
ascii_field: but we already established that miners are clinically retarded
trinque goes to inspect the function which does this
decimation: ascii_field: I wonder if satoshi thought that these nodes would be anonymous?
decimation: rather than the blatent centralizing points that they actually are?
mircea_popescu: he thought that everyone will run one and so it'll be too noisy to follow them.
mircea_popescu: because humanity is humanitarian and similar windows-powered bullshit.
decimation puts 'celesial navigation' on the library list
ascii_field: did nobody ever discuss the time thing? i have trouble believing this
mircea_popescu: <mike_c> markets break over the stupid leap second << no they don't.
decimation: it's come up a couple of times here, but not in the context of the 2h epoch
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 19:53:03; ascii_field: right now, our pictured supply chain looks like 'any pogo -> any ethernet jack'
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 19:56:14; danielpbarron: jurov mircea_popescu sent
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 19:59:08; trinque: some way of signaling current time via invalid transactions?
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 18:30:13; ben_vulpes: ;;later tell pete_dushenski whaddaya know about this glynn-ward character?
mircea_popescu: just as long as we put THE REAL TIME as a txn in every block, pogos can be fine
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: my objection was 'uses magic key'
pete_dushenski: "6 July 04:00: A new fork occurred starting 5 July at 21:30 with three blocks before the valid chain again became the strongest chain."
pete_dushenski: "Reports that the situation has passed are not correct. Please continue to wait 30 more confirmations than you usually would wait before accepting a transaction."
trinque: the message processing story in bitcoin is a shitshow
mircea_popescu: very useful, this network that takes 5 hours to confirm txn
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7800 @ 0.00055396 = 4.3209 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 20:03:11; ascii_field: probably the only Right Thing (tm) solution is to somehow cleanse bitcoin of its dependence on wall time entirely
trinque: maybe I'm an idiot, but I feel like you only get so many if statements per function..
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: why so certain that impossible ?
trinque: "disconnect if we connected to ourself" << LOL
mircea_popescu: because bitcoin is secured by mining which happens irl and the difficulty of mining is set on the basis of irl entropy.
trinque: put your dick down, bitcoin
ascii_field: why couldn't the difficulty be set based on accumulated work ?
ascii_field: (yes, it would end up climbing monotonically...)
ascii_field: the reward could still follow the same asymptotic
ascii_field: assuming that nuclear war doesn't send us back to cpu mining
ascii_field: 'Note that the roughly 50% of the network that was SPV mining...' << can haz network without 50% hash power belonging to diagnosable retarded folks plz ??!!
decimation: does SPV mining really give you that much 'edge'? It seems dubious to me
ascii_field: as (i think it was) mircea_popescu pointed out, it looks like the miners have not been sufficiently darwined yet
jurov: estimated time to fully verify a block is 20 seconds
ascii_field: and need a couplea catastrophic megadeaths
ascii_field: to help their collective iq move into the double digits at least
ascii_field: jurov: let me guess, nobody's written a multicore verifier ?
jurov: even if multicore, there's still i/o
trinque: so why can't my node's time just be far-future?
ascii_field: jurov: on my measurements, it's almost entirely cpu-bound
trinque: is this a worthwhile experiment?
ascii_field: trinque: because then you can be attacked in various ways
decimation: I wonder if someone could make money by 'brokering' txns on behalf of miners
trinque: ascii_field: making me eat lots of invalid blocks?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22280 @ 0.00053981 = 12.027 BTC [-] {2}
ascii_field: incidentally, does anyone else suspect that cn miners, on account of their microscopic profit margins, are ripe for usgization ?
ascii_field: 'you can make engineer's wages doing what you're doing. or you can do exactly same thing, but use spv and give us root, and your swiss account will grow by 100k/mo.'
assbot: Logged on 04-07-2015 22:28:31; mircea_popescu: anyway, the main sufferance in my head atm is that reading the chinese stuff (in translation) clarifies in my head an objection that may well be a second major flaw to the protocol, after the "relay nodes gotta do it for the glory" : its altogether unclear a purely financial incentive is the correct solution for miners.
ascii_field: these folks' time horizon is perhaps... 2 weeks long ?
ascii_field: i suppose all the 'proper confucians' with millenium-long time cocks are employed as colonels in pla or whatnot
ascii_field: seems like collectively chinese see bitcoin the same way they saw crimea
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34600 @ 0.00052881 = 18.2968 BTC [-]
pete_dushenski: "ONE MILLION new lines of code hit Linux Kernel 4.2 rc1"
pete_dushenski: "Most of those new lines of code come from “the new amd gpu register description header”, code that Torvalds says comprises “41 per cent of the entire patch” and has created a “... somewhat odd situation where a single driver is about half of the whole rc1 in number of lines.”"
ascii_field: who hasn't seen the rivers (literally) of toxic sludge
punkman: I don't even want to know how much tax the owner is paying on that
thestringpuller: ascii_field: did you get past the wedge yet in 0.5.3.x? or do you still not have access to a node?
☟︎ assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45981 @ 0.00051916 = 23.8715 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3852 @ 0.00051916 = 1.9998 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14428 @ 0.00051911 = 7.4897 BTC [-]
punkman: pete_dushenski: "in which Greek citizens refused to accept austerity measures" in case it wasn't clear, the referendum question was "do you like this deal? answer yes or no". and the next deal won't be much different either.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16600 @ 0.00051916 = 8.6181 BTC [+]
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo seems that the "yanis gaming industry" link was added twice in the same (3rd) paragraph
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59917 @ 0.00051916 = 31.1065 BTC [+] {2}
gribble: Bitfinex BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 274.96, Best ask: 274.99, Bid-ask spread: 0.03000, Last trade: 274.98, 24 hour volume: 56638.18757788, 24 hour low: 267.33, 24 hour high: 278.69, 24 hour vwap: None
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7120 @ 0.00052881 = 3.7651 BTC [+]
gribble: Error: "ba,bull" is not a valid command.
gribble: Next Price Estimate: 302.489 | Next Price In About 2 days, 21 hours, 36 minutes, and 24 seconds
gribble: Next Price Estimate: 219.968 | Next Price In About 3 days, 0 hours, 20 minutes, and 24 seconds | It's tanking!
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 21:11:18; thestringpuller: ascii_field: did you get past the wedge yet in 0.5.3.x? or do you still not have access to a node?
ascii_field: speaking of which, i've often thought of adding an 'i know a private key!' box to phuctor
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00053521 = 4.8169 BTC [+]
punkman: ascii_field: maybe better place for that in new keyserver?
ascii_field: punkman: keyserver is presumably for use as a keyserver, rather than place to hang the severed heads of pwned folks ?
ascii_field: incidentally, for anyone who missed, the public node is working and synced
ascii_field: ;;later tell mircea_popescu please consider posting your blkxxxx which encompass the two most recent forks
TomServo: Ahoy all, just wanted to pass long: my 0.5.3 node is humming along, currently reporting blockheight 364171.
☟︎ TomServo: If that's of any significance.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5118 @ 0.00053983 = 2.7628 BTC [+]
shinohai: ^ 10 BTC is steep for a domain name, but I like it
pete_dushenski: "CoinbaseAdrian 30 points an hour ago* : Sorry guys, we're looking into this. It appears to be an issue with our network provider (Cloudflare). We have an urgent ticket open with them and I'll update here with any details." << response to coinbase being offline
☟︎ assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12608 @ 0.00051911 = 6.5449 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: I'm the author of The Bitcoin Revolution: An Internet of Money and founder of Diginomics, Ask Me Anything! : Bitcoin ... (
http://bit.ly/1H5e12x )
pete_dushenski: "SuperSecretTech: How many bitcoin do you own?" TravisPatron: Not as many as I would like."
pete_dushenski: and so it will always be, travis. so it will always be.
pete_dushenski: looking forward to seeing tequilahead becoming the 8th greek finance minister in 5 years.
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 19:51:35; ascii_field: just opening that plastic box is already adding more labour cost than everything we previously considered to be involved in setup put together
TomServo: pete_dushenski: Didja find a way to boot OpenBSD on the edgerouter from USB or are you using the nfs boot option?
pete_dushenski: TomServo i found another computer with a serial port that actually talked to the serial cable i have. the usb adapter i bought was b0rked.
TomServo: But last I read booting OpenBSD required booting over the network, rather than install on the USB drive due to lack of a USB driver
pete_dushenski: first you unplug the usb drive from inside the edgerouter, plug it into your computer, install openbsd on it, unpack it, reinstall the drive in the edgerouter, establish a serial connection, and start talking.
TomServo: pete_dushenski: Ah cool, I'll give it a go. Thanks.
pete_dushenski is pleased that his amateurishness is of use to anyone ever.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15000 @ 0.00052669 = 7.9004 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20450 @ 0.00052008 = 10.6356 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34700 @ 0.00052669 = 18.2761 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 05-07-2015 12:18:42; mats: too light on actual details imo
decimation: pete_dushenski: I thought that openbsd didn't support the usb storage driver for edgerouter
decimation: if you are saying otherwise than that is good
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25884 @ 0.00052669 = 13.6328 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 06-07-2015 22:13:22; BingoBoingo: Ah, public node has maxversion
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34133 @ 0.00052669 = 17.9775 BTC [+]
BingoBoingo: ^ Hypothesis on one resolution path posited
trinque: asciilifeform: #2 sounds like another case of bad psych meds