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BingoBoingo: $b 5
deedbot: $b 5 is not a command.
asciilifeform: i don't give half a shit re what sewer rats do, for so long as it isn't done in my house or where i have to see it.
asciilifeform: i don't work with, e.g., ruby, or with people who do.
asciilifeform: period.
mod6: hey, im just posting this here so we don't lost it -- this is from funk_ iirc, he never sent it to the list -- i'm told that it "works" but have never tested it myself: http://dpaste.com/2WTCSHV.txt
mod6: s/lost/lose/
ben_vulpes: heh heh heh heh
mod6: :D
mod6: what up ben
ben_vulpes: dope
mod6: cool.
ben_vulpes: i've been wondering where that patch got off to
mod6: werd to that
mod6: im tinkering around with lexical parsing with scheme for a sec here.
ben_vulpes: going up to clojure/west to acquire a few more problems
mod6: been trying to plow through sicp and that compiler book. and ada.
mod6: dang huh
ben_vulpes: mhm
ben_vulpes: trains, bikes, conferences, may even have some sort of conversation piece done at that point
ben_vulpes: keep running into the most inane shit getting it running tho
mod6: i've never fucked with clojure
asciilifeform: mod6: some years ago, i attended a few meetings of a local clojurist society. ended up barfing and writing article, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42 (and sequel, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=374 ) that ~still~ get flamez, and - until recently - were among the top google results for subj...
mod6: heheh. nice.
mod6: what is the black magic behind the scenes? is it not based upon a lambda calc?
asciilifeform: mod6: clojure compiles to jvm
asciilifeform: mod6: similar to the old 'armed bear common lisp', except that it was written by a 'clever tricks' crackpot who added in ten truckloads of homegrown ustard idiocy
asciilifeform: e.g., 'let's use square brackets for certain lists'
asciilifeform: 'let's immutable-data'
asciilifeform: etc.
asciilifeform: this gave it a 'functional!111' and exotic flair and attracted hipster types
asciilifeform: (same folks as do haskell, but an iq std. dev. more junior)
phf: hicky is intentionally josling, i.e. designing language with mass appeal, knowing full well what he's doing
asciilifeform: not only this, but 'omfg11111! i can sell lisp to the boss at the cube farm now, it will build to jvm, can mingle with java codez!11'
mod6: ugh. so wait, instead of a general lisp interpeter its compiled into jvm byte code? what abortion is this?
phf: well, that
mod6: why would anyone do this?!
asciilifeform: mod6: imho i described above, why.
asciilifeform: but feel free to ask the aficionados.
asciilifeform: or read the comments to my 2 articles
asciilifeform: where they spew.
mod6: immutable data and square brackets?!
phf: mod6: lisp is not always (and not usually) interpreted, i don't think there's anything wrong with targeting jvm, except for the fact that jvm itself is not good
mod6: tinyscheme is an interpreter no?
asciilifeform: jvm, for instance, does not support the sane error handling common lisp users are accustomed to.
asciilifeform: instead you get stack trace barf.
mod6: or are other common lisps actually compiled?
asciilifeform: mod6: scheme is commonly interpreted.
mod6: huh
asciilifeform: mod6: modern common lisps typically include a compiler.
mod6: oh didnt know
asciilifeform: (it operates in what modern folk might call 'just in time' mode.)
mod6: ahk
asciilifeform: the operation of the compiler in common lisp is generally semantically transparent.
mod6: i've only used one clojure application and it was a very haphazardly implemented docker-like thingy.
mod6: actually, we tore our hair out
phf: actually there aren't many schemes that are interpreted, it's much more in vogue to compile them, since that's an easy thing to do
asciilifeform: phf: bytecode-compile
phf: unless we're talking compsci 101 scheme
asciilifeform: but in some perverse cases (e.g., 'chicken') compiled to c, but then you lose eval
asciilifeform: and it is not really a scheme any more.
mod6: i think this program was called 'uplift' or something - it guys employeed it to build vms quickly or w/e ☟︎
phf: why perverse? it's pretty standard for scheme to be compiled to C, it's a classical cps technique, sort of a couple of next chapters away from how tinyscheme is a classical interpreter
asciilifeform: no eval -> not scheme.
asciilifeform: i regard it as false advertising.
phf: that's silly
asciilifeform: you typically don't get call/cc either
asciilifeform: which makes it definitely more of a 'el cheapo undergrad lisp' than a scheme.
phf: if you're buying your schemes from supermarket, sure, but my point is that technique is available as part of the dictionary. can do a hybrid from there, i.e. compiled subtrate
phf: scheme48 does it that way, for example, with pre-scheme
asciilifeform: i am aware.
asciilifeform: eval-less lisp is a sterile thing, like a bullock or capon.
asciilifeform: in some cases one wants this.
asciilifeform: but the result is no longer lisp, as seen from the business end.
mod6: "Your last post shows how little you know about Clojure.
mod6: It’s dynamic, we rarely restart a JVM when coding/testing."
asciilifeform: enjoy mod6
asciilifeform: that thing is still bringing in idiots, like flypaper, ~7 years (!) later.
mod6: "Wow. This is absolutely hysterical. Sorry dude, Clojure won. Get over it."
asciilifeform: i personally don't give half a fuck re folks wanting to use bizarre shitlang with square brackets etc.
mod6: yeah dude, clojure won. so go fuck yourself.
asciilifeform: the galling thing is the fraudulent advertising, 'this is lisp'
phf: well, i think anything short of common lisp is not really a lisp :P (i.e. reader macros, restarts, pervasive defvar/defparameter clarity, well thought out function library, and such)
mod6: bro, if java were a pile of garbage why would a genius like Ellison and oracle still push it?
asciilifeform: why, i wonder, not go whole hog and go microshit.
mod6: kekekek
asciilifeform: per same argument.
mod6: these guys are crazy. i have to bite holes in my tounge every day.
mod6: "java has lambdas!!!!!1"
asciilifeform: even microshit, at this point, has some faux lambda thing.
phf: it's not really a secret why java, every time someone like alf starts talking about cogs in the machine the inevitable answer is "duh", that was the whole point, josling says as much in his early interviews, including the famous "at least we got them to grok gc"
asciilifeform: just as i was just now walking past a lot full of american shitcarz, and finally realized why 'mustang' has plastic grille over the rear window.
asciilifeform: (it is, i think, imitating the rear engine block of 12 cyl 'ferrari' with its air cooled motor) ☟︎
mod6: im at the point of paranoia enough where if we can not write out our program mathemtically, mechanically, then there is some magic going on in there. and that freaks me out.
asciilifeform: i bet pete_dushenski had this thought
mod6: i think for me, this is the allure of something like lambda calc.
asciilifeform: phf: gosling
asciilifeform: ?
phf: yah
asciilifeform: mod6: mr mold went and tried to derive a programming system from ski calc (isomorphic to lambda calc) and ended up with 'nock' and the rest.
asciilifeform: mod6: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=103 << my version
asciilifeform: imho his design sucks ballz
asciilifeform: but the whole story is in the logz.
phf: also mccarthy said a few times that lisp has not much to do with lambda calculus, he just completely misunderstood the papers (or rather was inspired by them)
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: lambda calc does not comport with physical machines well.
asciilifeform: (it requires, at least in its known restatements, entities to appear and disappear in ways no physical object behaves in)
mod6: thx for the link
asciilifeform: mod6: the denoument of the story, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1390
asciilifeform: in case you missed. (it was long ago)
mod6: putting everything aside, really, I want a machine that will do stuff that is deterministic, mathematically provable.
asciilifeform: the unfortunate thing is that there is not much that is mathematically provable in the general case about a program.
asciilifeform: (virtually any attempt reduces to the halting problem)
mod6: is this like common knowledge that I missed by not attending a college? ☟︎
asciilifeform: http://www.cgl.uwaterloo.ca/csk/halt << fortunately no need to blow yearz and megabux
asciilifeform: (turing's halting theorem is really a generalization of godel's incompleteness t.) ☟︎
mod6: oh yeah, halting prob, ofc.
mod6: is this also related to church-turing's paper surrounding the entscheidungsproblem?
phf: mod6: it's not clear at this point which school will bring sufficient clarity to this kinds of questions, without paying much more attention to current industry fads. see the thread about mit and sicp. they might mention halting problem in one class, and then go talking about proofs in Cog (if you're lucky or unlucky depending on how you look at it) in the next, with no explicit connection between the two
mod6: hmm
asciilifeform: phf: if the halting theorem were actually taught as serious business, the coq-suckers would eventually have to fellate their pistols.
asciilifeform: (for n00bz: it ~is~ called 'coq', i shit thee not)
asciilifeform: ;;google coq
gribble: Welcome! | The Coq Proof Assistant: <https://coq.inria.fr/>; What is Coq? | The Coq Proof Assistant: <https://coq.inria.fr/what-is-coq>; A tutorial by Mike Nahas | The Coq Proof Assistant - Inria: <https://coq.inria.fr/tutorial-nahas>
asciilifeform: it.
phf: i basically give up on puttin right letters in words
asciilifeform: briefly back to clojure lulz thread, i have yet to run into a single clojure user who ever heard of armed bear common lisp ☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: they have the classical ustard affliction of 'we are the greatest people, we are the greatest empire, nothing like us ever was'
asciilifeform: especially on this laughably short time scale, it is fall-off-yer-chair hilarious
phf: to be abcl would've benefited greatly from making their java ffi as nice as the one in clojure. that is of course a marketing problem, and that's something hicky thought about very carefully
phf: *to be fair
asciilifeform: aha. and joseph smith thought about marketing very carefully, really beat the shit off the other zombie cults of his time and prior
asciilifeform: him and, 100 y later, l. r. hubbard
asciilifeform: also genius of marketing.
asciilifeform: and a quintessential american.
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> (it is, i think, imitating the rear engine block of 12 cyl 'ferrari' with its air cooled motor) << it is
asciilifeform: the java and c-sharp lambdas are precisely this plastic grille.
phf: hmm, i thought c-sharp has a "real" lambda?
mod6: haha
phf: pretty sure it captures, and you can mutate environment from inside of it
asciilifeform: if it isn't first-class-data (i.e. a closure) it isn't a proper lambda.
asciilifeform: but i have nfi, never microshat in csharp
phf: c-sharp lambda is definitely first class, i'm trying to remember if it has weird restrictions like the python one
asciilifeform: the py one is a sad, sad joke
asciilifeform: also mustang grille.
phf: well, even named closures are broken, like in java you can't mutate outside state
phf: but to your genuis of marketing point, not having even a decenarian math within flying distance, i don't really see a way out of that one. guys design their systems for the masses, say as much in public, and yet somehow there's wide adoption, because one has to eat
asciilifeform: i eat without committing public atrocities
asciilifeform: and so can others.
asciilifeform: likewise, there is also wide adoption of britney spears, and oprah.
asciilifeform: neither is of any intellectual significance to folks with so much as half a squirrel's brain. ☟︎
asciilifeform: nor is involvement with them in any sense obligatory.
asciilifeform: even here in the heart of the idiot reich.
asciilifeform: i am still waiting for the gasenwagen to come on account of my never having seen oprah.
phf: and yet she exists within your mind as a placeholder for unwashed masses entertainment, if only we had tlp to write something about that
asciilifeform: i actually had to stop and think, to pluck the name out of my nether brain.
asciilifeform: spears is the one that stands for unwashed entertainment
asciilifeform: o stands for something else, 'intellectual' wankery of the squirrel-brained
asciilifeform: perhaps wrong character ?
asciilifeform: let's see if mircea_popescu coughs up a better example when he wakes up.
phf: i think that would be npr
phf: and perhaps new yorker?
asciilifeform: these, iirc, are for the capons, o. for the hens.
asciilifeform: but overall the question calls for an expert entomologist and i am grossly underequipped.
asciilifeform brb
phf: fwiw my first exposure to clojure was a clojure job in finance industry, i did a couple of talks on common lisp within airshot of the hiring person from the team, that was way before 1.0, and we must've been one of the first corporations to use clojure, because hicky made a point of coming to a local tech conference and speaking, i've had beer with him a few times
phf: that was also my first and last "corporate" job, which was interesting, i quit on the first day after coming back from burning man that same year. good times.
phf: we had a sort of ritual there, we'd go to a whisky bar for lunch and try their top shelf, the goal was to see how sloshed you can get for after-lunch-standup without mgmt calling you out
BingoBoingo: So, basically this job was like grad school, but with colleagues and paychecks that could support not borrowing to get sloshed?
phf: right
BingoBoingo: I bet the people around you were somehow more insufferable though.
phf: then grads? probably, i mean it's twenty year olds making six figures to do fuck all in clojure
BingoBoingo: yeah, gotta be worse
phf: that's my impression of american "lucrative" corporate jobs though, because people that i know from that place went on to very similar places, and that's what they do. code as part of special clojure team in a company that's all java, or code in f# for a special f# team in a company that's all .NET. they get drunk during lunch, shit faced on fridays
phf: go to tapas bars or whereverfuck
mircea_popescu waves at logsd
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1447356 << this sounds good in theory, and is doubtless the case in many other places. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: doesn't work for the even discussion tho.
mircea_popescu: that's just shitty spec/compiler and no more.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1447364 << i think he's exactly right. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: ;;ud josling
gribble: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bannan&defid=2522572 | Being touched and/or blessed by Bannan: "Bannanized". Refrence back to the definition for examples on how to use the word "Bannan." by Michael Josling July  ...
phf: you boys wanna go josling
phf: it's this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gosling
mircea_popescu: so what is it ?
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447470 << doh! ☝︎
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447491 << more like "well chosen college afterparties", at best. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447504 << this is generally pretty funny, and more us-specific than anything. doing the nth reimplementation of thing X, never heard of n-1th and take offensew with a complete statement of X. ☝︎
asciilifeform: see l0gz!
mircea_popescu: "3d cinema" for instance has "happened" about every 3rd decade since last century.
mircea_popescu: it's not even specifically highly complex, intellectually-intensive things. fad diets consist of reruns.
asciilifeform: for 'man' with the long-term memory of a fish, what else is life if not a series of 'reruns'.
mircea_popescu: i don't think this is a man problem. imo this is a family problem.
mircea_popescu: they decided to live separated by age groups ; unlike saner people in europe and arab world, they don't coerce young women into fucking old men
mircea_popescu: as a result...
mircea_popescu: lalaland.
phf: mircea_popescu: gosling, the guy who designed java, is notable for recognizing the right thing, but intentionally committing an atrocity of java as a language for the corporate programming. in one of his interviews he says something along the lines of "at least we got ~them~ to use a garbage collector". before java gc was an explicitly lisp thing, which is also gosling's pedigree
mircea_popescu: ah ah.
mircea_popescu: somehow josling kept parsing as the name of an activity.
mircea_popescu: like hogging.
asciilifeform: earlier g was famous for a mutilated version of emacs.
asciilifeform: and yes, quite like hogging.
mircea_popescu: o you know what that is ?!
asciilifeform: as i understand that was phf's usage.
mircea_popescu: i thought it went out of style with the 50s household
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: aha! BingoBoingo explained it!11
mircea_popescu: oh
asciilifeform: the art of fucking hogs ?
phf: asciilifeform: i thought current emacs is gosling emacs derivative?
phf: asciilifeform: that's too witty for me, i'm just typing all over the place
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, it's a special party where everyone invites ugly chicks pretending they're pretty.
mircea_popescu: then there's a denouement.
asciilifeform: ah that
asciilifeform had nfi this existed outside of fiction
mircea_popescu: it was the last cork keeping the derpy femitards in check, really.
phf: carrie ruined it for everybody
mircea_popescu: once that was out, horseface exploded with her pretenses of being interesting and a writer like a sunned carcass.
mircea_popescu: phf that's her isn't it ? the woman with a horse face ? carrie something ?
asciilifeform: phf: possibly, https://web.archive.org/web/20030905055728/http://freeroller.net/page/vanessa/20030820
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447528 << this is not really warranted .oprah originally had a book club for blacks. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: not terrible.
mircea_popescu: certainly no britni.
phf: aah
asciilifeform: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-kth.html << rms re gosling.
asciilifeform: 'In the summer of that year, about two years ago now, a friend of mine told me that because of his work in early development of Gosling Emacs, he had permission from Gosling in a message he had been sent to distribute his version of that. Gosling originally had set up his Emacs and distributed it free and gotten many people to help develop it, under the expectation based on Gosling's own words in his own manual that he was going to f
asciilifeform: ollow the same spirit that I started with the original Emacs. Then he stabbed everyone in the back by putting copyrights on it, making people promise not to redistribute it and then selling it to a software-house. My later dealings with him personally showed that he was every bit as cowardly and despicable as you would expect from that history.'
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm thinking the 1970 something movie
phf: unless it's a sarah jessica parker joke that i'm somehow missing
phf: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074285/
mircea_popescu: having meanwhile googled the abomination, i can confirm it is sarah jessica parker
mircea_popescu: and the role was carrie bradshaw
phf: aah master entomologist
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Did you just google the string "horseface"
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo horseface whatshername
mircea_popescu: it's on trilema.
mircea_popescu: ;;google horseface whatshername
gribble: "You're the guy who wasn't good enough to sling dope." on Trilema ...: <http://trilema.com/youre-the-guy-who-wasnt-good-enough-to-sling-dope>; Maxwell House Tomatoes - Food Gardening part 3 - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNXR85ec5Z4>; 10 Gorgeous Hollywood Actresses Who are Actually Moms! – All ...: <http://thingsrated.com/2015/05/13/hollywoods-10-most- (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: there we go.
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447437 << that someone would use clojure for any kind of scripting activity is hilarious, as startup time measures in integer seconds ☝︎
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447504 << this is patently false ☝︎
mircea_popescu: so thinking about it, phf really deflated my article. fact remains : cpu is cpu, it will do what it will do. whatever the fuck you call what it does, it's what it does. yes ada is well mistaken to speak wrong mathematics, but then again it's not a mathematics shop. you want to use your lengthier, thicker and more nodular math cock to mock the poor engineers, go ahead, but the fuck it does.
mircea_popescu: a well.
mircea_popescu: $up deedbot-
deedbot: deedbot- voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: see thread. the haskell folks went entirely with 'fuck the cpu, we'll plug our ears and eyes'
mircea_popescu: yeah.\
mircea_popescu: btw, you quoted the wrong rms bit
mircea_popescu: In the years that followed I was inspired by that ideas, and many times I would climb over ceilings or underneath floors to unlock rooms that had machines in them that people needed to use, and I would usually leave behind a note explaining to the people that they shouldn't be so selfish as to lock the door. The people who locked the door were basically considering only themselves. They had a reason of course, there was somet
mircea_popescu: hing they thought might get stolen and they wanted to lock it up, but they didn't care about the other people they were affecting by locking up other things in the same room. Almost every time this happened, once I brought it to their attention, that it was not up to them alone whether that room should be locked, they were able to find a compromise solution: some other place to put the things they were worried about, a desk t
mircea_popescu: hey could lock, another little room. But the point is that people usually don't bother to think about that. They have the idea: “This room is Mine, I can lock it, to hell with everyone else”, and that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have.
mircea_popescu: rms is the true enemy of the republic. he's the mr brian, if you will.
mircea_popescu: no dickless washington bureaucrat is or could ever be as bad as this abominable imbecile.
asciilifeform: rms lived whole life in motherfucking research institutes
mircea_popescu: so ?
asciilifeform: the terminals 'selfishly locked' belonged to the kolhoz.
asciilifeform: different planet.
mircea_popescu: "that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have." <<< mno, pure evil.
mircea_popescu: rms is exactly what we must teach kids not to be.
asciilifeform: rms was the only effective antidote to microshit.
asciilifeform: you might not want antimatter in your refrigerator, but it has its uses.
mircea_popescu: da fuck i care.
mircea_popescu: antidote my ass.
mircea_popescu: linux is still nowhere, and microsoft is still derping. he was no antidote. not anymore than mr. brian was antidote to 1984.
mircea_popescu: he was just soporific.
asciilifeform: linux is the only reason we have anything to converse about.
mircea_popescu: we could just as well have conversed about the pike carrying gate's head.
asciilifeform: still waiting' for this pike
mircea_popescu: and for as long as there's a rms to fuck up things, we'll be waiting.
asciilifeform: kindly illustrate this one
mircea_popescu: in any conflict, there's moderate positions, and then there's extreme positions. if the moderate position is represented (such as here by rms), the problem is papered over, and things continue until we fall over.
mircea_popescu: the correct solution generally is to strangle the moderates.
asciilifeform: rms is moderate ?!
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: i tell ya, i dun see it
mircea_popescu: the soul of moderation. yes, very fucking good at marketing his supposed extremism
mircea_popescu: and yet, "that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have."
mircea_popescu: he is EXACTLY of the same mind as bill gates.
asciilifeform: when palladium was but a mere microshit patent, entirely theoretical, rms was the ~only~ one to publicly ring the alarm bells.
mircea_popescu: they both want : no ownership.
asciilifeform: to much ridicule, recall.
mircea_popescu: so ?
mircea_popescu: wait, i'm supposed to get excited about the campbell can of soup on the left because it is blue ?
asciilifeform: and he took a principled stand against every major technoscumbag to date.
mircea_popescu: each and every time at issue was something irrelevant, he took a principled stand.
mircea_popescu: but when it came to individual versus group, he took the usg stand. also every time.
asciilifeform: example?
mircea_popescu: "that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have."
mircea_popescu: fuckall. that is EXACTLY the spirit they MUST HAVE.
asciilifeform: the really tragic bit re rms is that he became a shadow of a man after getting his mcarthur prize. ended up hiring programmers (!) and turning into a bureaucrat.
asciilifeform: an intellectual ~0.
asciilifeform: ~all of his actual lasting work (gcc) happened prior.
mircea_popescu: i can't see him as anything more or anything else than a decoy.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu often says 'i don't deal in counterfactuals', and the principle seems quite in place here - it is not clear to me that a gcc-less 1980s would have led to anything other than a wintel os+compiler monopoly
asciilifeform: (if you think os+hardware is dire...)
mircea_popescu: and it is not clear to you that a brian-less 1984 would have lead to anything less than a complete domination right ? after all, at least he gave winston the book, right ?
mircea_popescu: ffs.
asciilifeform: draw, for my education, a 'genuine article rms'
mircea_popescu: are you familiar with how "animal rights" moved from a laughable nothing to a point of policy ?
asciilifeform: not very
mircea_popescu: outright terorism. genuine article rms would have firebombed microsoft offices
mircea_popescu: every week.
mircea_popescu: "you work for microsoft, you get raped in the parking lot and left to bleed"
asciilifeform: this didn't work so well for the fetus-rights folks
mircea_popescu: so ?
asciilifeform: just led to armed guards.
asciilifeform: as, incidentally, with the fucking rats
asciilifeform: we had machine-gunners at nih animal facility.
mircea_popescu: derp-ass FOSS certainly didn't work for anybody.
mircea_popescu: but go buy your girl a fur.
asciilifeform: available by the megatonne.
asciilifeform: just as meat in restaurant.
mircea_popescu: ~see what she says~
asciilifeform: she says 'whatever'
mircea_popescu: darn!
mircea_popescu: anyway. the more rms i read the less i like him. the more i think about rms, the less i like him.
asciilifeform: rms was not built to be liked.
mircea_popescu: that has exactly nothing to do. i don't like in that way.
asciilifeform: and ftr i don't much care why he did what he did, terry davis wrote quasi-sane os because the devil personally ordered him to in his sleep
asciilifeform: see what diff it makes.
asciilifeform: i can certainly see that rms was ~ineffective~ post-1993 or so
asciilifeform: would have to be blind, not to see this
asciilifeform: but different question.
mircea_popescu: i am not discussing that he was ineffective, ie, an engineering question. i am discussing that he is evil, ie, an ethical question.
mircea_popescu: under a thin veneer of bullshit he hides all the socialism you could possibly wish for.
asciilifeform: fella was redder than lenin, this was never mega-secret
mircea_popescu: well so i dun like him.
asciilifeform: fair.
asciilifeform: i just happen to see lenin as a necessary forest fire, so that idiot dynasty could properly die
asciilifeform: ditto rms.
mircea_popescu: perhaps. now the counterfactuals clause is certainly kicking in
asciilifeform: idiot entrenched dynasties spawn lenins.
phf: (logging bot croaked in case people wondering why no updates, will fix in a bit)
asciilifeform: as surely as usg letting tinder dry spawns forest fires.
mircea_popescu: omaigerd phf losing lines is v bad.
ben_vulpes: php bot never wronged me like this
phf: there's always backup, so lines are not lost, but everyone is inconvened
phf: hence me talking about "bot is brittle, don't update refs, etc."
mircea_popescu: kk
ben_vulpes unconvenes
mircea_popescu: reconvene
ben_vulpes reconvenes
phf: $reconvene
deedbot: $reconvene is not a command.
mircea_popescu: $conbibe
deedbot: $conbibe is not a command.
ben_vulpes: sorry phf i only respond to un-prefixed commands
mircea_popescu: $pizdets
deedbot: $pizdets is not a command.
mircea_popescu: well no, it's an observation.
asciilifeform: l0l!
ben_vulpes: lol
asciilifeform: $пиздец
deedbot: $пиздец is not a command.
phf: fancy
phf: $くそ
deedbot: $くそ is not a command.
ben_vulpes: for lo, trinque labors over the unicode
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: "random walk" has some /miserable/ css.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: sure does.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: pretty much best 'all in 1' article on subj i could find tho.
ben_vulpes has been reading through it on the mobi term for dayz, but...miserable css makes mobrowser shit itself
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: try on 'ipad' or similar.
ben_vulpes: this is /precisely/ that of which i complain
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: worked fine here.
asciilifeform: just a bitch to scroll.
ben_vulpes: "spreading"!
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: try rotating to landscape
asciilifeform: i did find myself wondering if the author has one of those 16:8 displays or the like
ben_vulpes: this is all immaterial. i don't disagree that it's a nifty "all in 1".
asciilifeform: rotated, still retarded layout
ben_vulpes: more so here
ben_vulpes: i don't...just pointing out the hoops poor d00d had to jump through in order to publish the thing.
ben_vulpes: output of which...still suxx.
phf: bigger concern is not really losing entries, but having invalid id numbers. bot keeps log a b c d bot reconnects and misses a handful of messages g h i j, now in order to insert e f back into the log need to shift g h i j ids forward so if i references h, it's now refering f instead
phf: i assume assbot handled that by having a short reconnect cycle and simply losing a message or two during an outage ☟︎
phf: can of course not have a sequential id/entry mapping, but i think that breaks expectations
phf: correct way is to have n bots running on different machines, connecting to different freenode hosts, talking to each other as they get messages, and then submitting a shared answer
phf: two hard problems in distributed systems, 2. exactly once delivery 1. guaranteed order of messages 2. exactly once delivery
ben_vulpes: heee
BingoBoingo: http://qntra.net/2016/04/open-sourced-vulnerability-database-closes-cites-more-people-taking-their-free-goods-than-giving-them-free-goods/
ben_vulpes: > a decision has been made
ben_vulpes: man, wouldn't it be neat if CBlockIndex weren't actually a "tree-shaped structure"?
ben_vulpes: or if comments stayed in sync with code or something?
mircea_popescu: kik yup phf
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 20 btc
davout: also hanbot -> http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-first-progress-report#comment-8435
davout: tl;dr: FROM_UNIXTIME() yields localized strings, not GMT
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 26 btc
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 30 btc
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 33 btc
PeterL: is bidding almost over?
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 34 btc
davout: PeterL: keeps going until one hour elapses after the last bid
PeterL: ben_vulpes would you hire a guy who sent you this? http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/e6b34c9c-a218-4740-8f68-2048b244fdae/?raw=true ☟︎
shinohai: https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2016/04/06/hackingteams-global-export-license-revoked/ <<< top keks ☟︎
mircea_popescu: davout> tl;dr: FROM_UNIXTIME() yields localized strings, not GMT <<< time implementation is dumb. see also
mircea_popescu: hm. hey phf : http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22localize+that%22 vs http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1189592 ☝︎
mircea_popescu: and for that matter, what's it supposed to be ? http://btcbase.org/?date=06-07-2015#1189592 ? http://btcbase.org/log/?date=06-07-2015#1189592 ?
mircea_popescu: davout wow, taking off huh ?
davout: meanwhile, the bitbet auction best bid is at 41 btc
mircea_popescu: PeterL sounds like the usual cocky bullshit infantile idiots with a useless degree and too much reddit exposure spout.
mircea_popescu: could make an ok diner cook, i spose.
mircea_popescu: with the right antidepressant medication.
PeterL: but isn't it the same kinda stuff ALF is always complaining about?
mircea_popescu: and the inept robber and the underpaid policeman also engage in "the same kinda stuff"
davout: meanwhile, the bitbet auction best bid is at 50 btc, aka one full Bitcoin block reward
asciilifeform: woah
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447772 << news at never'o'clock - 'microshit's license revoked' ☝︎
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447771 << hire to what? sweep floor ? ☝︎
asciilifeform: related lulz: http://archive.is/IMAJu
asciilifeform: 'More than 40% of Americans who borrowed from the government’s main student-loan program aren’t making payments or are behind on more than $200 billion owed, raising worries that millions of them may never repay.'
asciilifeform: '... The picture has improved slightly from a year earlier, when the nonpayment rate was 46%, but that progress largely reflected a surge in Americans entering a program for distressed borrowers to lower their payments.'
asciilifeform: and, best of all,
asciilifeform: 'The Education Department has assembled a “behavioral sciences unit” to study the psychology of borrowers and why they don’t repay. “We obviously have not cracked that nut but we want to keep working on it,” said Ted Mitchell, the Education Department’s undersecretary. He said many defaulted borrowers dropped out of school and are underemployed.'
davout: je viens de mettre une enchère à 60 btc sur bitbet
davout: oops, wrong chan
davout: The bitbet auction best bid now stands at 60 btc
PeterL: asciilifeform> (it is, i think, imitating the rear engine block of 12 cyl 'ferrari' with its air cooled motor) << I always thought it was supposed to provide some shade, keep inside car from heating up in the sun?
mircea_popescu: heh
mircea_popescu: let's study why people who live off the dole don't build the empire that was.
mircea_popescu: o noes, i wonder. why could it be.
mircea_popescu: davout fancy that!
mircea_popescu: http://fr.anco.is/2016/so-long-paymium#comment-8391 << interesting point, actually.
mircea_popescu: anyone cares enough to see if whoever's left at paymium wants to do a qntra interview ? ☟︎
mircea_popescu: o wow look at that, pete - znort - davout three way free for all! lol.
mircea_popescu: PeterL that also.
davout: The bitbet auction best bid now stands at 63.1337 btc
mircea_popescu: im so fucking curious what are the limits of the various parties involved and if any whale lurks lol.
mircea_popescu: but all in all this is SO MUCH like eulora auctions i can't fucking believe.
mircea_popescu: is it past the end ? what's the cutoff, 1 hr from 10:28 art ?
davout: The bitbet auction best bid now stands at 70 btc
davout: mircea_popescu: one hour after the bid war has stopped basically
mircea_popescu: right so technically speaking, time of last bid + 1 hr, and last bid is at 10:33 ie right now
davout: 10:33 ar time
mircea_popescu: ye
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> 'More than 40% of Americans who borrowed from the government’s main student-loan program aren’t making payments << incidentally... i own a coupla of these.
mircea_popescu: they'll make any payments sometime after microsoft-loses-license-o'clock.
mircea_popescu: o wow kakobrekla bid 33 even.
davout: still 12 minutes left to outbid pete_dushenski
davout: 3 minutes left !
davout: 60 seconds
mircea_popescu: nice! who got it, pete ?
danielpbarron: ;;later tell pete_dushenski congrats on winning bitbet!
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mircea_popescu: yeah good going.
davout: wait
danielpbarron: btw his clearsigned thing got mangled by your site, davout ; easy fix to confirm is add two hyphens to each group of hyphens
davout: znort bid 71
davout: danielpbarron: i usually add <pre> tags
davout: imma check the precise timestamps
danielpbarron: oh whoops
danielpbarron: i didn't refresh
danielpbarron: ;; later tell pete_dushenski whoops, false alarm!
gribble: The operation succeeded.
davout: danielpbarron: yeah, i'm adding them myself since wp is retarded
mircea_popescu: hmm seems there's a 71 ?
mircea_popescu: ah yea
PeterL: cutting it close to the deadline, did the bid get in on time?
mircea_popescu pictures various groups frantically trying to gather more liquidity while the +1 btc bit bought them a little time etc
danielpbarron: hm, that latest bid doesn't seem to be signed properly
danielpbarron: not that you said signing is required
mircea_popescu: lmao.
PeterL: semms the comment system is magling the pgp-isms inline signaling
danielpbarron: well i was able to fix pete's myself and see that it verified, but the same trick didn't work on znort's
davout: so the bid is valid
davout: http://dpaste.com/2R5EZ6J.txt
davout: see ^
PeterL: such drama!
danielpbarron: so is the auction over or did that extend it?
davout: also i fell of chair when i discovered wp_comments table has two fields comment_date_gmt, and comment_date
davout: danielpbarron: it's not over
danielpbarron: oh ok so my congrats wasn't so retarded
davout: danielpbarron: it's *not* over
davout: the sig is valid once i add <pre>s
danielpbarron: right, i thought maybe znort had made the bid an hour ago and it was he who won
danielpbarron is notoriously bad at auction times
mircea_popescu: lively times.
davout: half an hour left to take home bbet
davout: if anyone cares i'm done bidding
davout: OR MAYBE NOT :D
davout: everyone's my sockpuppet except pete who's being milked for the shareholders
mircea_popescu: wait, wut
asciilifeform: is wotless rando still in first place ?
davout: just kidding
davout: asciilifeform: dude is in wot
davout: http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/znort987/
asciilifeform: davout: so is decimation, what of it
davout: he's not wotless that's all
PeterL: I forget, what did decimation do wrong?
davout: $gettrust znort987
mircea_popescu: PeterL you think anyone here enumerates badness ?
mircea_popescu: there isn't any air for the whole "oh i did nothing wrong" contribution.
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
davout: deedbot dead?
davout: $gettrust deedbot znort987
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
PeterL: meh, just wondering, I guess I can search through logs
asciilifeform: PeterL: he was this fella whom hitler hired to waste our time for ~2y
asciilifeform: didn't even deny it with any serious vigour when confronted.
PeterL: aha
davout: looks like pete is done bidding
davout: this znort fellow doesn't show up when grepping my logpile
mircea_popescu: mine either.
asciilifeform: hence rando
davout: l'argent n'a pas d'odeur
davout: pecunia non olet
mircea_popescu: wasn't he asking for "the logs" or somesuch ?
asciilifeform: he was!
davout: where ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno on your site somewhere.
asciilifeform: in one of the signed bids.
mircea_popescu: it's pretty lulzy, bitbet never actually kept logs.
asciilifeform: http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-first-progress-report#comment-8398
asciilifeform: 'Although this is not a requirement, and assuming he has kept a copy, I would also appreciate
asciilifeform: if Matic could, as a matter of courtesy, provide the complete logs for the site.
asciilifeform: '
davout: aha, i misunderstood, thought he asked pointers to the forum's logs
asciilifeform: can anyone suggest a reason why an honest man might ask for such a thing ?
davout: aaaaand pete is back in the race with a 72 btc bid
PeterL: mircea_popescu mpex faq still points to #bitcoin-assets
mircea_popescu: ah yeah it;s getting fixed eventually.
gernika: asciilifeform: aqcuirers of web sites typically want all sorts of metrics about the site that might be in the logs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno, www world is enamoured with "metrics" and whatnot
mircea_popescu: word.
asciilifeform: hm ok
davout: aaaaand we're at 73
davout: guess imma make myself some tea, this isn't going to be resolved today at this rate
mircea_popescu: lol.
mircea_popescu: i have a trilema article all ready for when this finally happened, went to bed expecting to publish it this morn... no dice...
asciilifeform feels like complete idiot for having had notions of buying
mircea_popescu: why ?
PeterL: asciilifeform maybe you just took the wrong strategy, should have waited until the end to go from .001 to 9 btc, scare everybody else off
mircea_popescu: in any case he held top bid for a longer interval than the eventual winner is likely to :D
mircea_popescu: see alfie, metrics. they make any reality more palatable.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it still tastes like rusty nailz
asciilifeform: and at any rate, 9 was my top bid because... that was all the coinz i had.
mircea_popescu: makes sense.
davout: aaand pete_dushenski takes the lead with a 74 btc bid
mircea_popescu: i just checked lol.
mircea_popescu: so is the guy znort or znor ?
shinohai: And znort counters with 75 ).0
phf: exciting
mircea_popescu: so i installed chromium to check it out.
mircea_popescu: holy shit this thing is inept.
mircea_popescu: shares a bar for url and search ? "click here to log what you type in url bar which we now call omnibar" ? there's no way to see cookies, all you can do is "obliterate" items, and limited to "from the past...." so you can't actually purge the shitbag ?
mircea_popescu: who the fuck ever said chromium is usable ?
mircea_popescu: popups to translate pages "not in the languages i speak" ? wtf does it know what languages i speak
phf: mircea_popescu: you've not looked at "modern" browsers in a while
mircea_popescu: oh, don't tell me, i could "save setings online and access them from any browser"
mircea_popescu: wtf is wrong with people.
mircea_popescu: phf bout five years.
mircea_popescu: "continue rtunning background apps when chromium is closed" thing takes the cake. nigga, say wut ?!
phf: yeah, that's about how long it's been since you could get a decent browser behavior. i think that's when firefox switched from "general purpose xul renderer" to "modern browser"
mircea_popescu: whats that even mean.
mircea_popescu: "the web" as a sort of google-run itunes store ? in the grand tradition of the bbs archive ?
mircea_popescu: shinohai any bets on who wins in the end ? :D
mircea_popescu: 81!
davout: and why's pete_dushenski not around?
mircea_popescu: ya srs.
davout: fucking casual
mircea_popescu: lol. werd.
phf: betting 74btc from his iphone at a brunch or something
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: there ARE NO sane graphical wwwtrons
asciilifeform: 'chromium' was, last i knew, the ~least~ braindamaged
asciilifeform: but this is not saying much.
mircea_popescu: i don't see how it could possibly qualify.
PeterL: what would you use instead?
asciilifeform: ^
mircea_popescu: instead of what ?
asciilifeform: i ~won't~ use firefox, for instance.
PeterL: instead of chromium?
asciilifeform: it is a steaming megatonnne of shit.
mircea_popescu: i dunnoi, im not that into gfx browsers.
PeterL: firefox used to be the best, now it just feels slow and clunky when I try to use it
mircea_popescu: atm trying a thing called "seamonkey"
asciilifeform: PeterL: it leaked memory from day1
PeterL: aha
PeterL: has the leak gotten bigger with time?
trinque: meanwhile chromium's got "native client"
trinque: because who doesn't want to run binary blobs in a web page?
trinque: google reinvents activex, is so totally not msft of 2010s
mircea_popescu: heh
jurov: acc. to my hands-on experience, haskell's problem is not the cpu
jurov: but that it took the "machine with unlimited memory" abstraction and took it to extreme
asciilifeform: jurov: unlimited memory, instantaneous movement of data, magical i/o...
asciilifeform: motherfucking MONADS
jurov: but making it split work between cores is much easier
asciilifeform: at the cost of doing 25x moar wurk total.
jurov: than to get it not to hog memory by filling it with lazy comuptation thunks
jurov: i had to mark almost *everything* by "yes compute this now, not leave it to later"
asciilifeform: jurov: ml (predecessor of haskell) is sorta like haskell but without some of the more egregious mental illnesses
asciilifeform: (e.g., no laziness)
mircea_popescu: honestly a proper modern fortran would prolly be worth the time to make. this specifically means upgrading it more towards derive than towards haskell
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how is a 'towards Derive' a fortran ?!
asciilifeform: fortran has no redeeming value, period
mircea_popescu: recall what our dispute (of sorts) re ada ended up resolving as ? "hey man - it may pretend it's not like c - but it's like c".
asciilifeform: for fucks sake it isn't a c
mircea_popescu: there's fundamentally two ways to approach computing : as an engineer and as a mathematician.
asciilifeform: unless abused egregiously
mircea_popescu: there's some shoddy solutions for the first. chiefly, c. people don't like them, but it is also possibly the case that they've gotten as close as possible.
asciilifeform: can use EXCLUSIVELY safe arrays, can AVOID ENTIRELY pointers. ergo not 'a c'
mircea_popescu: meanwhile, for the latter, there's... r ?
asciilifeform: qe'fucking'd
mircea_popescu: wouldja let go of that and look where i'm saying!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for the latter, common lisp.
asciilifeform: (or, if space-constrained, scheme.)
mircea_popescu: so i don't have to point out to you that yes it is, "even" "mod" etc.
asciilifeform: why do you need the infix claptrap ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu reads 3 pages of ada examples and spews nonsense re same
asciilifeform: srsly, consider reading the rationale ?
mircea_popescu: mk, we have to [re]do that discussion in depth, i guess.
asciilifeform: the 'even' thing was not a built in op !
asciilifeform: it was an ~example~ somebody wrote.
mircea_popescu: how about mod ? how about > ?
phf: alf is deeply infatuated at the moment with ada, so you should wait a few months :p
asciilifeform: phf: actually i don't much enjoy ada
asciilifeform: i just don't see ANY practical alternative to it
mircea_popescu: "mod is not definable here because hey, abstract types. nevermind, > is defined, fuck abstract6 types".
mircea_popescu: it's a c.
mircea_popescu: the criteria YOU use for c-ness is not unversal.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly say what you think of as 'a c'
asciilifeform: this would be helpful
phf: asciilifeform: well, same way as no particular alternatives were seen to tinyscheme few months ago
asciilifeform: phf: afaik there still are none!
asciilifeform: show me one!
mircea_popescu: " people don't like them, but it is also possibly the case that they've gotten as close as possible." <<< we're in exact agreement, here. no alternative known, and not likely possible.
mircea_popescu: but that doesn't change the fucking fact!
asciilifeform: ~which~ fact
mircea_popescu: an engineering machine is one where you define bitcoin max coins as it's defined, and you end up with a max equal to 20999999.9769 btc.
phf: asciilifeform: recall that i spent probably most time here on tinyscheme going as far as writing swank integration and unreleased bignums, i'm saying that you go through phases of "this is how we solve bitcoin". i grok the value of ada, and i grok the value of scheme, but neither are alternative-less. in fact with the amount of skill available, simply hacking on btc consistently we would've been further along
mircea_popescu: a math machine is one where you define bitcoin max coins and the sum works properly and the series converges to 21mn
mircea_popescu: so this is what i mean by "it's a c" : whatever the fuck you do, it's still going to be an ugly hack where you "can't define this" but nevertheless define THAT, which is just as broken.
mircea_popescu: it's true that haskell tries and splendidly fails at being not-this.
mircea_popescu: what's that do for anyone.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform dja grok what i'm talking about ?
davout: aaaand pete_dushenski is at 85
asciilifeform: phf: ENTIRELY different applications. tinyscheme was suggested SPECIFICALLY for embedding in large cpp program with ~tiny~ loc budget
asciilifeform: NOT for safety-critical software
asciilifeform: which - is is my belief - must NOT garbagecollect
asciilifeform: ever.
asciilifeform: and i am NOT interested in further hacking on cpp turd.
asciilifeform: except to the purpose of SHRINKING same.
mircea_popescu: why's this guy so emotional. yo!
asciilifeform: <+mircea_popescu> so this is what i mean by "it's a c" : whatever the
asciilifeform: fuck you do, it's still going to be an ugly hack where
asciilifeform: you "can't define this" but nevertheless define THAT,
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
asciilifeform: ^ false
mircea_popescu: eh ?
asciilifeform: CAN define.
asciilifeform: just gotta use BRAIN.
mircea_popescu: how are you going to define a sorting rule for a type you don't know yet.
asciilifeform: by knowing it ?
mircea_popescu: so then are you saying ada shouldn't allow either mod or > ?
mircea_popescu: ie, that the thing as-is is broken, and should be fixed, but other than that the idea is ok ?
asciilifeform: what i'm saying is that operating on machine integers when you really mean something quite else, is braindamaged
asciilifeform: use machine integers when they fit.
mircea_popescu: this is not germane to the discussion.
asciilifeform: point being that i can define, e.g., a 48-bit mantissa and 11-bit exponent, and USE THIS and ada will behave sanely.
asciilifeform: and place the bits CPU-independently.
mircea_popescu: also not germane to the discussion.
asciilifeform: ...?
mircea_popescu: aite brb, ima state this moar formally.
mircea_popescu: the problem is this : in ada manual it is said, "So we see that the predicate in the subtype Even cannot be a static predicate because the operator mod is not permitted with the current instance. But mod could be used in an inner static expression." ; it is further said "and, in addition, a call of a Boolean logical operator and, or, xor, not whose operands are such static predicate expressions, and, a static predicate expres
mircea_popescu: sion in parentheses."
mircea_popescu: to the question "why did they not define EVEN correctly, eschewing this problem they perceive with mod" you answer that " ada is a civilized lang like commonlisp and there is NOT a presumption that integers are machine words !". This objection, if accepted as the correct response, ALSO invalidates using, say, XOR, and for the same reason.
mircea_popescu: the fundamental problem here being, obviously enough, that the FORMALISM used to describe math for and in computers is shit. and yes, on that shitty basis you will never have math, but an engineering-useful hack.
mircea_popescu: so yes, i can understand WHY you'd like it, think you need it, see it as best or better.
asciilifeform: this much cannot be escaped.
mircea_popescu: but all this ~fundamentally c discussion~ which is EXACTLY what it is,
mircea_popescu: has no bearing on the problem that hey, math is still not represented, and some people'd like it to be.
asciilifeform: i'm still waiting to hear what is 'fundamentally c'
mircea_popescu: this!
mircea_popescu: this "hey, it doesn't work, sign here"
asciilifeform: thus far it sounds like 'why wash hands after shitting, there are microbes everywhere'
mircea_popescu: no, it sounds like until the day you can machine-represent an irrational quality without rounding, you're lying to yourself about having washed anything.
asciilifeform: to me, c MEANS buffer overflows and idiot type casts, and pointers.
mircea_popescu: so then : this is c.
mircea_popescu: yeah well, we're different people.
asciilifeform: if you want rational numeric tower (as mircea_popescu describes above) you are condemned to lisp.
mircea_popescu: and this is why it goes all the way down to fortran. the unresolved problems are actually very deep.
asciilifeform: with all of the costs.
asciilifeform: fortran is quintessentially a c
asciilifeform: but with braindamaged syntax.
mircea_popescu: maybe miserable example, in retrospect.
phf: or apl
asciilifeform: (btw anyone who pines for fortran, need not search long, it is on your box right now, in gcc)
mircea_popescu: i picked it as a point because of the "abstract number" thing, ie, redefine 4.
asciilifeform: redefining 4 worked as a strings parser trick
mircea_popescu: (that is in practice an equivalent of the mantissa trick, it allows you to get out of all sorts of problems)
asciilifeform: not because it had any general concept of number.
mircea_popescu: yeah well. my theoretically-useful example failed the test of practice.
asciilifeform: the precise handling of bits is, afaik, unique to ada and commonlisp
asciilifeform: where i can specify EXACTLY how the bits lay down
asciilifeform: as illustrated in yesterday's link
mircea_popescu: but in the end, i say this : the difference between 20999999.9769 and 21000000.0000 is the unpayable change. point of fact remains that we can't escape this situation where we draw one thing, and the machine pops up another thing.
mircea_popescu: and the problem is not, apparently, resolvable by fixing the machines. even if you had ideal machines, they'd still haveto halve blocks, and the results would still conceivably be... this.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: easy, just don't use the idiot ieee float ☟︎
asciilifeform: use sufficient bits for the representation of the WHOLE range.
asciilifeform: SOLVED
mircea_popescu: i don't think you understand.
mircea_popescu: satoshis are integers. they are not floats.
asciilifeform: so then ?
mircea_popescu: problem persists.
asciilifeform: from where comes this imaginary problem, i dun see it
mircea_popescu: nothing imaginary about it, it's factual. the sum total of all satoshi in existence once the bitcoin ran its course will not be 21mn, but 131k satoshi less.
asciilifeform: so you represent it as a quotient.
asciilifeform: this is called 'rational arithmetic'
mircea_popescu: there is no way to represent "all the numbers between 1 and 2" in a finite space.
asciilifeform: why ALL the numbers ?
jurov: mircea_popescu: there is, using ranges
asciilifeform: represent the ones you can actually produce.
mircea_popescu: jurov ranges are a sort of abstraction unavailable to computers.
asciilifeform: satan help you if you are actually in need of 'reals'
asciilifeform: they don't EXIST in engineering.
asciilifeform: never did.
mircea_popescu: it is, in places such as ada, "must use contiguity" the EXACT equivalent of "my ai program thinks because the procedure is called <<understanding>>"
asciilifeform: nope.
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as contiguity or ranges that machines can grok.
asciilifeform: the possible values of a byte ~are~ contiguous.
phf: i don't understand why the point mircea_popescu would be so controversial among compscis here, it's sort of the whole point of numerical analysis
mircea_popescu: and for that matter, among even numbers 2 - 8 is as much of a range as 1-4 is among natural numbers.
mircea_popescu: phf me either.
phf: alf keeps saying that there are localized solutions to various classes of numerical problems
jurov: mircea_popescu: there's "unum" numeric system that does support ranges, and is improved replacement of ieee floats
phf: mp keeps saying that you don't have a way to solve it as an abstract
mircea_popescu: it's well established for ~3 centuries now, i kinda feel like leibniz already.
asciilifeform: you define the field, and work in it
phf: which is entirely true, this is like intro to von neumann 101
asciilifeform: why is this a painful concept ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you can't define jack shit for a cpu without actually lying somewhere about what you did. is the problem.
jurov: btw, i doubt continuum can be grokked by humas, either
jurov: *humans
mircea_popescu: maybe not.
jurov: all we have is some deryp prrof that "we think of something that we don't know how to map to N"
phf: it's a philosophical discussion, and mp, not being a programmer, is realizing that ada or c or .. is not actually it from where he stands, doesn't mean can't be used, just not magick. ☟︎
asciilifeform: machine is not magical, no.
mircea_popescu: let's work a simple example. suppose the case is that your machine is required to behave coherently with the rule that " among even numbers 2 - 8 is as much of a range as 1-4 is among natural numbers". the MOMENT your solution to this was "simple, just take $i*2", you have in fact c'd it.
asciilifeform: but it IS possible to make abstraction that does not leak until you run out of memory.
mircea_popescu: phf worse that that, utterly undermines the fundamental reason against many things we supposedly argue against fundamentally.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in your terms : it IS NOT possible to make abstraction that does not leak until [condition about machine and only machine]. ALL the abstractions you make WILL leak once you run out of BRAIN.
phf: mircea_popescu: fwiw a lot of vlsi research in the 70s and 80s was about that, how do we make bedrock a lot less engineery, but that all died with microcomputer revolution(sic)
asciilifeform: when you run out of brain, all bets are off.
mircea_popescu: basically, all the architecture systems architects have managed yet to produce is the equivalent of "we need 10.1k builders - 100 to build and 10k to hold up the walls once we're done". ☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: this, if sad, is an insecapable fact of the trade.
mircea_popescu: phf aha.
mircea_popescu: i agree the crisis may only be in my head, but in point of fact i'm getting a whole paradigm reallignment thing, slightly queasy atm.
asciilifeform: the one and only sane fact is that we are stuck with CPU designed when ram was $50/kB.
jurov: isn't this parallel with old greeks thinking "all numbers are rational".. till they found out they can't?
asciilifeform: *sad fact
mircea_popescu: quite paralel.
phf: except opposite? all the math, until you find out that immediately available reality is finite
asciilifeform: not only finite, but discrete.
mircea_popescu: phf the greeks notably thought they can build things, because they know "the actual value of pi"
asciilifeform: the very first thing you learn of a computer, 'this thing has N states, yes, it is a large N, but N is an INTEGER'
mircea_popescu: except the larger the things they tried to build, the worse it got. but then they fixed it. because, as alf the greek beedog says, "it IS possioble to make wall that won't leak!!11"|
mircea_popescu: so yea, i would say this is very much equivalent. we CAN'T actually make computer systems. and every time we try to make a larger one, we're stuck re-calculating a sort of "pi"
mircea_popescu: about which the only thing that can be rightly said is that - it will crash the next larger system.
asciilifeform: this is directly 'why wash hands, sanitation doesn't exist.'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note that i am proposing no action.
asciilifeform: but it is the perfect and in fact traditional excuse for inaction.
mircea_popescu: when i say "therefore - we should all eat an onion" you can bring that obhection
mircea_popescu: or to put it another way : the reason software houses denegerate into makework facilities is much more fundamental than any sort of policy. in point of fact, a numeric computer of the sort we're using is NOT useful in either logic or math but as a shorhand for an actual logician or mathematician that takes the abortive nonsense the machine spits out, and enchants it into actual usable truth.
mircea_popescu: and there's no way to specify him out of the machine or vice-versa. for reasons that perhaps go all the way to godel
mircea_popescu: (and yes, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447493 ☝︎
mircea_popescu: this'd make the "march lords in a wot - take your fief and guard it" naive approach to date actually very well grounded both factually and now philosophically ; and also offer a ready explanation of "why all this shit everywhere!"
asciilifeform: it remains possible to write proggy that behaves - demonstrably - correctly for ALL electrically-possible inputs.
mircea_popescu: yes. but it remains impossible for this proggy to be useful in the abstract :)
asciilifeform: what ~isn't~ possible, per godel, is to arrive at this using brute idiocy
phf: (that's one of the reasons i thought one of the more effective ways of organizing computer human interaction is have an equivalent of dune mentat backed by a computer, i.e. an advisor to decision makers who performs computation and analysis. something like that existed at the height of apl, and i know a handful of now old apl-ers who sat on boards and were responsible almost exclusively for "running the numbers")
asciilifeform: yes, idiots want this for phreee, without having to UNDERSTAND what they did.
asciilifeform: phf: this remains the only practical thing.
asciilifeform: anywhere.
mircea_popescu: so it does. for reasons better understood now, at least by me.
asciilifeform: it is, i think, how mircea_popescu uses bitcoin, for instance.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, this is exactly how the trade houses used to work,
phf: in which case the kind of machines that the mentats are backed by require very particular characteristics, e.g. power above "novice usability" etc. so lisp machines and apl machines
asciilifeform: think of a ship's telegraph.
mircea_popescu: before the "mentats" got into depression, heavy drinking and asscrack-cracksnorting.
asciilifeform: captain did not turn knobs on the steam machine himself!
asciilifeform: phf: it is my intention to bring this back, full bore.
asciilifeform: to the mentat - the mentat's
asciilifeform: to caesar - caesar's (tm) etc.
mircea_popescu: cesar, the guy whose name became an office
mircea_popescu: even in countries far distant in time and space, that couldn't rightly spell it./
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: in short, and to sum up : there may never exist such a thing as the "general purpose computer"
phf: the person that i was a [big bank] vendor with is actually doing that right now. a trained apl-er and mathematician, having spent few years interacting with [big bank] decision makers now consults on a handshake basis for companies that need a problem solved, but don't care if it comes with a pretty windows gui ☟︎
phf: of course, general purpose computer was always a device that high cast professional would sit in front in order to do computations, augmented by external systems or additional special purpose interchangeable boards. at least that was a pretty shared vision from engelbard to symbolics before the microcomputer ☟︎
mircea_popescu: im thinking it was actually a delusion, driven by peculiar circumstance that was both exceptional and unlikely to repeat.
phf: yes :/
mircea_popescu: much of the same substance as rms' "oh, all things belong to all people", ie, lazy reductionism.
mircea_popescu: but hey, welfare works for as long it works, so does this.
phf: well, it was post-war boomers, left leaning hippie intelligentsia who grep up on asimov and such, in a country awash with free money, all that euro gold
phf: culture that percolated into mass media through star trek federation and such
mircea_popescu: i am left without a solid basis to protest the use of magic numbers in code ;/
mircea_popescu: but at least the whole "technology offers no solution for human problems" intuition now has much better footing in fact.
mircea_popescu: anyway. the forever-bitcoin, ready to be buried under the sea or w/e, is not happening. because : "<mircea_popescu> how are you going to define a sorting rule for a type you don't know yet. <asciilifeform> by knowing it ?" is actually inescapable. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: btw phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447752 is actuallyt trivially checked, i have the logs of when it dc'd. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: lesseee.
phf: i feel like i have some code laying around to do comparison, but won't have wandwidth for a bit
phf: *wandwidth
mircea_popescu: Nov 27 03:56:48 * assbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
mircea_popescu: Nov 27 03:57:31 <mod6> ;;bc,stats
mircea_popescu: Nov 27 03:58:53 * assbot (~assbot@unaffiliated/kakobrekla/bot/assbot) has joined #bitcoin-assets
phf: oh fair
phf: about 2 minutes round time, yeah that's what i'm getting just doing an aggressive reconnect. note that there's possibly a lack of log visibility few seconds before it "quit"
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-27#936365 << missing ☝︎
mircea_popescu: confirmed.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1448178 << poppycock. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: $up idioter
deedbot: idioter voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: tis a dream alf. a dream!
mircea_popescu: http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-first-progress-report#comment-8471 << so it seems the winner is znort guy, 86 btc bid.
mircea_popescu: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 406197 | Current Difficulty: 1.668515132827772E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 407231 | Next Difficulty In: 1034 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 3 hours, 8 minutes, and 41 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
asciilifeform: program that behaves sanely for all time so long as the iron holds up, is a reality. i write'em.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform browser ?
phf: so doing awk through my logs, there's almost 10k lines "missing"
mircea_popescu: this is WHY your "fits in head", btw. well justified cover for the "on the basis of the pi we know, the largest house that can stand is 11 feet tall"
asciilifeform: if you could kill the shitstack, incl gpu, yes - even browser.
mircea_popescu: phf some of that could be unresolved netsplits ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha!
idioter: hello. i made a withdrawal on coinbr.com from mpex about 4 days ago. i have been told i need to talk to mircea popescu about it.
mircea_popescu: idioter yeah loads of btc moving since mpex sale. hold tight, you'll get it.
idioter: is there any approximate information about when the withdrawals will be made?
mircea_popescu: i'd expect today/tomorrow.
mircea_popescu: but mostly, today.
idioter: o.k. thank you
pete_dushenski: since 5:30am onwards, my goodness what an eventful day
pete_dushenski: see stan, even kulaks set wake-up alarms sometimes.
mircea_popescu: lol i guess you're gonna buy a new car with the btc thus saved ?
asciilifeform: l0lwut
asciilifeform: ah he lost
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: something like that
mircea_popescu: anyway, re earlier discussion, i guess it'd be worth belabouring the point that nothing therein contained is an argument against using ada. it's still a great technical solution, for bounds checking, for other reasons, it's still a great practical solution, for native linkability with c object code, for other reasons. same stands for scheme, still best option for a scripting language for bitcoind.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re thread, see also earlier threadz re 'impedance matching'
mircea_popescu: impedance yea
asciilifeform: as in 'why using 19 bit integer is 25x slower than 16'
asciilifeform: the concept pervades physics.
mircea_popescu: "why is no insect larger than a breadbox"
asciilifeform: well that's more euclidean geometric (surface/volume)
mircea_popescu: (contrary to what noob scientists may think, "a breadbox" is neither arbitrary nor undefined in that sentence)
asciilifeform: this'd be more of a 'why is ear shaped like-so'
shinohai: Thanks for making my day entertaining anyway pete_dushenski o/
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform geometry doesn't really matter until physics decides d^x is a factor :D
pete_dushenski: shinohai: yw!
pete_dushenski: ;;later tell davout don't scare-excite me like that next time! (wait, what next time?) also, i wanted to show up here, but couldn't quite meditate and irc atst ☟︎
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mod6 http://zhu-qy.blogspot.com/2012/08/adatutor.html
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: ^ and anyone else
asciilifeform: spiffy resource.
mircea_popescu: such first and only comment.
asciilifeform: classic homework idler
asciilifeform: quite familiar species to regular readers of 'stack overflow' and similar.
mircea_popescu: "Ada.Text_IO is a "package" that comes with Ada. (In Ada 83, the package name is just Text_IO, and for compatibility, Ada 95 also accepts the shorter name.) We'll learn more about packages later."
mircea_popescu: such win.
deedbot-: [» Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] That time I let outright ownership of BitBet slip through my fingers. - http://www.contravex.com/2016/04/07/that-time-i-let-outright-ownership-of-bitbet-slip-through-my-fingers/
pete_dushenski: ^updated. realised i'd left the calculated p/e in months rather than the standard years.
mircea_popescu: well technically it started 0.0001 0.0002
pete_dushenski: aha. was speaking to two other points in s.bbet's history however : peak and present
mircea_popescu: the auction
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron and thestringpuller also bid
pete_dushenski: o sorry that, left those out because unsigned ☟︎
mircea_popescu: ah thats a point
pete_dushenski: heh fr.anco.is shows pingbacks in 'recent comments'. i'll take the free advertising.
phf: gg
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: http://www.contravex.com/2016/04/07/that-time-i-let-outright-ownership-of-bitbet-slip-through-my-fingers/#comment-43089
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell davout delete xmlrpc.php from your wordpress install and you will be 95% of the way to securing your blawg ☟︎☟︎
gribble: The operation succeeded.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: http://www.contravex.com/2016/04/07/that-time-i-let-outright-ownership-of-bitbet-slip-through-my-fingers/#comment-43091
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: http://www.contravex.com/2016/04/07/that-time-i-let-outright-ownership-of-bitbet-slip-through-my-fingers/#comment-43090
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: mine was signed..
pete_dushenski: thus, yours was the first bid
pete_dushenski: at 9 btc
pete_dushenski: there were no signed bids before that
asciilifeform: hm looks like.
phf: so i don't read hackernews or reddit, they are mentioned here a lot though, so i decided to check if a sale of bitcoin company for 86BTC (damn) is going to get mentioned anywhere. nope. nada.
asciilifeform: mega-unsurprise.
asciilifeform: no paulgraham catamites or phoundation scum involved - ergo no mention.
asciilifeform: in other 'news', http://users.cis.fiu.edu/~weiss/ada.html << useful data structures stuff
asciilifeform: mod6 et al ^
mircea_popescu: phf they mostly get mentioned derisively, tho. it's a sort of templeos/timecube/whatever, they got their alt-reality, sticking to it, nothing happens in it, etc.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what did templos ever do to you!111
mircea_popescu: weirdo guy going on about god something or the other ?
asciilifeform: with motherfucking sane orthogonal persistence!1
mircea_popescu: so you like templeos because it has persistence and graham because, apparently, gavin doesn't have to work for a living.
mircea_popescu: you're a man with an open heart, what.
asciilifeform: 1ofthesethings is not like theotherz!11 (tm) (r)
pete_dushenski: phf: if the sale of a bitcoin company for 250k btc didn't get mentioned, a measly 86 btc sale doesn't stand much chance of crossing the lips of the peeple
asciilifeform: 1ofthesethingz doesn't belong!1
mircea_popescu: "it wasn't a real company because we didn't count for shit in the sale"
mircea_popescu: you know, sorta like how "russia is not real country because putin doesn't invite obama over"
asciilifeform: precisely that way.
asciilifeform: or, even more so, 'ghadafi is not a real sovereign because he doesn't come to davos'
mircea_popescu: "and his nurses are hawt"
phf: top /r/bitcoin post is about some guy for bought bitcoin for $20 that he forgot about, now has $800k. this is like The Sun style bullshit "found million dollars in gradma attick"
mircea_popescu: but it's precisely what it is.
asciilifeform: phf: it is also handy waterfall legend
asciilifeform: 'who is selling 800k of coin? not usg!111 you hatefact-peddling nazi. it's this bloke in his attic'
asciilifeform: http://www.findlayw.plus.com/KDF9/emulation/emulator.html << irrelevant but very interesting imho.
asciilifeform: mod6 et al ^
asciilifeform: (example of large ada application)
asciilifeform: incidentally, very pertinent to earlier thread,
asciilifeform: because the kdf9 had ~weird~ (by modern standards) data types, e.g., 96-bit mantissa, etc.
asciilifeform: and these are emulated, pretty elegantly.
mircea_popescu: in other news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/7721937b94021017b390613747b70b10/tumblr_o0f40swxzv1tk9udjo1_1280.jpg
asciilifeform: 48-bit integers...
asciilifeform: 6-bit chars.
mircea_popescu: you know, thinking about it... what exactly is the rationale even of the concept of "int" ?
mircea_popescu: it's a cheap hack to get things cached through "registers", sure.
mircea_popescu: so ?
mircea_popescu: cpu should have proper cache ; wtf is a "register" even in 2016.
mircea_popescu: there is ~no reason to use the c representation or notion of number at all.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: do you recall the 1-bit cpu thread ?
asciilifeform: i turned one up !
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: a month or 2 ago
asciilifeform: it existed.
asciilifeform: registers as long as you like, on a whim.
mircea_popescu: it's not directly clear the notion of bit is even relevant
mircea_popescu: aha!
asciilifeform: (you can trivially bit-serial add/subtract, but not mult/div unless by powers of the base)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you gotta pick some quantum of info for the logic to operate on.
asciilifeform: (personally i favour the... trit)
asciilifeform: but otherwise registers are a necessary evil, a teaspoon-sized bucket is possible but generally not wanted
mircea_popescu: i'm unpersuaded. yes the breadbox is neither arbitrary nor undefined in the bug discussion. here however, no such benefit. there is no "size".
asciilifeform: i dug out the 1-bit cpu because i have a weakness for exotic archs that might be amenable to optical or otherwise 'this handful of switching elements' incarnation.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: bit-serial arithmetic is slow. and bit-serial storage is slow.
asciilifeform: the use of registers was the original parallelization, if you will.
asciilifeform: ('let the n bits add at once' etc)
mircea_popescu: in entirely unrelated but omfg i can't believe this - cascadia dwelling derpy mother of slavegirl that wants to think of self as "fiber artist" but otherwise crochets like any old woman since time immemorial, landed what to her appears as a very good deal. she sells her stuff in a senior citizen center gift shop. for a 15% comission. to understand each other : she provides the merchandise. she provides the sales workforce. sh
mircea_popescu: e takes home 15 cents out of a dollar in receipts.
mircea_popescu: i'm in awe of what ustardia can do to people.
asciilifeform: ^ apple app store !11
asciilifeform: or any dead tree publisher
asciilifeform: (where in fact author is lucky to see 3-5%)
mircea_popescu: dude... what happened to full price for the stock + full wage for me selling it + benefits.
mircea_popescu: fucking unions won.
mircea_popescu: totally.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no i know the history of how it ended up in. i'm just saying, it really is pretty stupid, useless and wtf already.
asciilifeform: it is classic app store - 'don't like it? go sell on the street, keep 100% of the pennies you get'
asciilifeform: the folks who carved up and own the whole fucking universe, are responsible for this.
asciilifeform: which is why i fundamentally cannot hate rms, say
asciilifeform: any fly in their soup is a friend of mine.
asciilifeform: the more poisonous - the better.
mircea_popescu: "the folks" you speak of are wholly imagined.
asciilifeform: recall the lab robot thread ?
mircea_popescu: like wizard of oz.
asciilifeform: the owners are not imagined.
asciilifeform: every sidewalk tile i step on has owner.
mircea_popescu: yeah, they are. again : wizard of oz.
mircea_popescu: nobody there.
mircea_popescu: nothing you can possibly touch in a day of trying has an owner. nothing.
mircea_popescu: it's mortgaged, hypotecated, securitized, sold, bought and transfered. nothing belongs to anyone or anything.
mircea_popescu: you think the situation is peculiar to gold ? it is not.
asciilifeform: i suspect even my arse has owner, somewhere in a filing cabinet some parasite has title to it.
mircea_popescu: pfff.
mircea_popescu: nonsense.
asciilifeform: ah i see what mircea_popescu meant re gold etc.
asciilifeform: this, yes.
mircea_popescu: yeah.
asciilifeform: but my point was that folks-who-definitely-aren't-me own the whole lot.
mircea_popescu: so... no. no folks. no anything. just a snake of pressed shit eating its tail and wondering why the process is lossy.
asciilifeform: like in the 'pioneers land' trilema article.
asciilifeform: all carved up.
mircea_popescu: this isn't a point, this is a psychogenic bit of nonsense.
mircea_popescu: a similar cognitive process would be to say : a) i don't fuck bricks ; b) another exists ; c) therefore, another fucks bricks.
asciilifeform sees where mircea_popescu is going.
mircea_popescu: and ftr, the woman would make 10x to 100x more selling on street.
asciilifeform: it is a lulzy reversal, actually, normally it is i who 'none of these apparent X are true X'
mircea_popescu: da fuck, most buskers make more than her by a fat margin.
asciilifeform: busker != old woman selling sweaters
asciilifeform: busker is a very active, in your face thing
mircea_popescu: which is the problem here. even when it works, the "appstore" didn't work for the rational reason, but for the irrational one.
mircea_popescu: as evidenced to me and for my needs by the plain fact that even when the actual rational explanation is no longer applicable,
mircea_popescu: the behaviour continues.
mircea_popescu: these people are, basically, very dedicated cultists. they WANT a CERTAIN SOMETHING to be how things work. and will disregard and ignore anything and everything else. because they're not, fundamentally, opressed. they're, fundamentally, nazis.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> i'm in awe of what ustardia can do to people. << PUBLISHING!!!
hanbot: mircea_popescu it's possible something like that is the cheaper option for a certain sort of person in a certain sort of context
hanbot: particularly when old age enters into this.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: didja have in ro the old folks holding up pictures of stalin ?
mircea_popescu: it is not possible, no.
asciilifeform: in '90s
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform aha. quite.
asciilifeform: so - them!
asciilifeform: right here they are, i imagine, holding up reagan
hanbot: the initiative and work involved in the actual sales is rarely something an old woman can accomplish
asciilifeform: or if not yet, will soon.
mircea_popescu: hanbot but she has to do the sales as it is!
hanbot: oh, seriously?
mircea_popescu: the only thing she can't do is, construct the mental infrastructure of pretense she subscribes to.
hanbot: i thought it's some sort of leave yer shit in our kiosk and we'll sell it sorta deal
mircea_popescu: much like byzantine peasant couldn't construct the orthodox delusion ; much like alf teh bee dog can't construct washington.
mircea_popescu: yet there they are, mesmerized contributors.
mircea_popescu: hanbot no, she physically mans the kiosk. like the job someone would be normally hired to do, and get a wage.
mircea_popescu: except she doesn't.
asciilifeform: ok now ~that's~ bizarre.
BingoBoingo: So, I drove by well over a million dollars in ruined construction equipment this morning.
BingoBoingo: Apparently some asshole dug into a 10 inch natural gas pipe
BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/SydLw
asciilifeform: zimbabwes weren't meant to have piped gas.
asciilifeform: they heat with cow shit.
BingoBoingo: You'd be surprised where they pipe gas here
BingoBoingo: Anyways, my zimbabwe is prolly less zimbabwe than yours.
asciilifeform: point being, the time will come when $infrastructure explodes and is not repaired.
asciilifeform: not in a week, not in a month.
asciilifeform: like the sov towns in far east that are frozen ghost towns now.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: you say this, but i've never seen fireballs emerging from the asphalt.
asciilifeform: and when i get small voltage dip and call repair truck, it shows up in 40 min.
asciilifeform: max.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Did not emerge from asphale, about 15-20 feet away from asphalt. Crew that exploded pipe was doing some shit to prep the site for an old folks home.
asciilifeform: nor are washington bridges yet falling.
asciilifeform: note also that the far east ghost towns in su, but moscow is not.
asciilifeform: like it or not, 'good things flow to the city'
asciilifeform: (as do the scum, yes)
asciilifeform bbl.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> like the sov towns in far east that are frozen ghost towns now. << this makes one hell of a trip btw.
mircea_popescu: and tbh, at some point in the 90s moscow was half falling over, actually.
mircea_popescu: fortunately no earthquakes. hopefully they mostly fixed it.
mircea_popescu: bucharest was in the same position.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: washington bridges might not be falling, but what kind of a nation's capital closes light rail lines ?
hanbot: didn't i see some pic or other of moscow's main freeway, >15 lanes, absolutely gridlocked?
hanbot: not sure alive > dead
mircea_popescu: that was the roaring 2010s tho neh ?
mod6: good convo today re: ada/c/math machine, etc.
mod6: i want math machine
pete_dushenski: ;;later tell ben_vulpes i can see why you like that shelbyllet : it's aircraft meets muscle car. and wouldja check out that inboard/pushrod suspension! mega-nifty. largely unseen on street cars outside lambo aventador ($500k) and, of course, pagani ($1mn+++)
gribble: The operation succeeded.
mod6: pete_dushenski: hey I did get your message about the weird balance thing. i've seen that myself too.
mod6: wallet sucks shit
pete_dushenski: omfg do they ever
deedbot-: [fr.anco.is] BitBet auction: a winrar is znort987 - http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-auction-a-winrar-is-znort987
pete_dushenski: not like i wasn't planning how i'd overcome this retardation if i was going to be handling >100 txen per mo, but hey, someone else's problem now i guess