mod6: hey, im just posting this here so we don't lost it -- this is from funk_ iirc, he never sent it to the list -- i'm told that it "works" but have never tested it myself:
http://dpaste.com/2WTCSHV.txt ben_vulpes: i've been wondering where that patch got off to
mod6: im tinkering around with lexical parsing with scheme for a sec here.
ben_vulpes: going up to clojure/west to acquire a few more problems
mod6: been trying to plow through sicp and that compiler book. and ada.
ben_vulpes: trains, bikes, conferences, may even have some sort of conversation piece done at that point
ben_vulpes: keep running into the most inane shit getting it running tho
mod6: i've never fucked with clojure
mod6: what is the black magic behind the scenes? is it not based upon a lambda calc?
phf: hicky is intentionally josling, i.e. designing language with mass appeal, knowing full well what he's doing
mod6: ugh. so wait, instead of a general lisp interpeter its compiled into jvm byte code? what abortion is this?
mod6: why would anyone do this?!
mod6: immutable data and square brackets?!
phf: mod6: lisp is not always (and not usually) interpreted, i don't think there's anything wrong with targeting jvm, except for the fact that jvm itself is not good
mod6: tinyscheme is an interpreter no?
mod6: or are other common lisps actually compiled?
mod6: i've only used one clojure application and it was a very haphazardly implemented docker-like thingy.
mod6: actually, we tore our hair out
phf: actually there aren't many schemes that are interpreted, it's much more in vogue to compile them, since that's an easy thing to do
phf: unless we're talking compsci 101 scheme
mod6: i think this program was called 'uplift' or something - it guys employeed it to build vms quickly or w/e
☟︎ phf: why perverse? it's pretty standard for scheme to be compiled to C, it's a classical cps technique, sort of a couple of next chapters away from how tinyscheme is a classical interpreter
phf: if you're buying your schemes from supermarket, sure, but my point is that technique is available as part of the dictionary. can do a hybrid from there, i.e. compiled subtrate
phf: scheme48 does it that way, for example, with pre-scheme
mod6: "Your last post shows how little you know about Clojure.
mod6: It’s dynamic, we rarely restart a JVM when coding/testing."
mod6: "Wow. This is absolutely hysterical. Sorry dude, Clojure won. Get over it."
mod6: yeah dude, clojure won. so go fuck yourself.
phf: well, i think anything short of common lisp is not really a lisp :P (i.e. reader macros, restarts, pervasive defvar/defparameter clarity, well thought out function library, and such)
mod6: bro, if java were a pile of garbage why would a genius like Ellison and oracle still push it?
mod6: these guys are crazy. i have to bite holes in my tounge every day.
mod6: "java has lambdas!!!!!1"
mod6: WELL THEN BROSEPH, EVERYTHING IS AWESOME!
phf: it's not really a secret why java, every time someone like alf starts talking about cogs in the machine the inevitable answer is "duh", that was the whole point, josling says as much in his early interviews, including the famous "at least we got them to grok gc"
mod6: im at the point of paranoia enough where if we can not write out our program mathemtically, mechanically, then there is some magic going on in there. and that freaks me out.
mod6: i think for me, this is the allure of something like lambda calc.
phf: also mccarthy said a few times that lisp has not much to do with lambda calculus, he just completely misunderstood the papers (or rather was inspired by them)
mod6: putting everything aside, really, I want a machine that will do stuff that is deterministic, mathematically provable.
mod6: is this like common knowledge that I missed by not attending a college?
☟︎ mod6: oh yeah, halting prob, ofc.
mod6: is this also related to church-turing's paper surrounding the entscheidungsproblem?
phf: mod6: it's not clear at this point which school will bring sufficient clarity to this kinds of questions, without paying much more attention to current industry fads. see the thread about mit and sicp. they might mention halting problem in one class, and then go talking about proofs in Cog (if you're lucky or unlucky depending on how you look at it) in the next, with no explicit connection between the two
phf: i basically give up on puttin right letters in words
phf: to be abcl would've benefited greatly from making their java ffi as nice as the one in clojure. that is of course a marketing problem, and that's something hicky thought about very carefully
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> (it is, i think, imitating the rear engine block of 12 cyl 'ferrari' with its air cooled motor) << it is
phf: hmm, i thought c-sharp has a "real" lambda?
phf: pretty sure it captures, and you can mutate environment from inside of it
phf: c-sharp lambda is definitely first class, i'm trying to remember if it has weird restrictions like the python one
phf: well, even named closures are broken, like in java you can't mutate outside state
phf: but to your genuis of marketing point, not having even a decenarian math within flying distance, i don't really see a way out of that one. guys design their systems for the masses, say as much in public, and yet somehow there's wide adoption, because one has to eat
phf: and yet she exists within your mind as a placeholder for unwashed masses entertainment, if only we had tlp to write something about that
phf: i think that would be npr
phf: and perhaps new yorker?
phf: fwiw my first exposure to clojure was a clojure job in finance industry, i did a couple of talks on common lisp within airshot of the hiring person from the team, that was way before 1.0, and we must've been one of the first corporations to use clojure, because hicky made a point of coming to a local tech conference and speaking, i've had beer with him a few times
phf: that was also my first and last "corporate" job, which was interesting, i quit on the first day after coming back from burning man that same year. good times.
phf: we had a sort of ritual there, we'd go to a whisky bar for lunch and try their top shelf, the goal was to see how sloshed you can get for after-lunch-standup without mgmt calling you out
BingoBoingo: So, basically this job was like grad school, but with colleagues and paychecks that could support not borrowing to get sloshed?
BingoBoingo: I bet the people around you were somehow more insufferable though.
phf: then grads? probably, i mean it's twenty year olds making six figures to do fuck all in clojure
phf: that's my impression of american "lucrative" corporate jobs though, because people that i know from that place went on to very similar places, and that's what they do. code as part of special clojure team in a company that's all java, or code in f# for a special f# team in a company that's all .NET. they get drunk during lunch, shit faced on fridays
phf: go to tapas bars or whereverfuck
phf: you boys wanna go josling
mircea_popescu: "3d cinema" for instance has "happened" about every 3rd decade since last century.
mircea_popescu: it's not even specifically highly complex, intellectually-intensive things. fad diets consist of reruns.
mircea_popescu: i don't think this is a man problem. imo this is a family problem.
mircea_popescu: they decided to live separated by age groups ; unlike saner people in europe and arab world, they don't coerce young women into fucking old men
phf: mircea_popescu: gosling, the guy who designed java, is notable for recognizing the right thing, but intentionally committing an atrocity of java as a language for the corporate programming. in one of his interviews he says something along the lines of "at least we got ~them~ to use a garbage collector". before java gc was an explicitly lisp thing, which is also gosling's pedigree
mircea_popescu: somehow josling kept parsing as the name of an activity.
phf: asciilifeform: i thought current emacs is gosling emacs derivative?
phf: asciilifeform: that's too witty for me, i'm just typing all over the place
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, it's a special party where everyone invites ugly chicks pretending they're pretty.
mircea_popescu: it was the last cork keeping the derpy femitards in check, really.
phf: carrie ruined it for everybody
mircea_popescu: once that was out, horseface exploded with her pretenses of being interesting and a writer like a sunned carcass.
mircea_popescu: phf that's her isn't it ? the woman with a horse face ? carrie something ?
phf: mircea_popescu: i'm thinking the 1970 something movie
phf: unless it's a sarah jessica parker joke that i'm somehow missing
mircea_popescu: having meanwhile googled the abomination, i can confirm it is sarah jessica parker
phf: aah master entomologist
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Did you just google the string "horseface"
mircea_popescu: so thinking about it, phf really deflated my article. fact remains : cpu is cpu, it will do what it will do. whatever the fuck you call what it does, it's what it does. yes ada is well mistaken to speak wrong mathematics, but then again it's not a mathematics shop. you want to use your lengthier, thicker and more nodular math cock to mock the poor engineers, go ahead, but the fuck it does.
deedbot: deedbot- voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: In the years that followed I was inspired by that ideas, and many times I would climb over ceilings or underneath floors to unlock rooms that had machines in them that people needed to use, and I would usually leave behind a note explaining to the people that they shouldn't be so selfish as to lock the door. The people who locked the door were basically considering only themselves. They had a reason of course, there was somet
mircea_popescu: hing they thought might get stolen and they wanted to lock it up, but they didn't care about the other people they were affecting by locking up other things in the same room. Almost every time this happened, once I brought it to their attention, that it was not up to them alone whether that room should be locked, they were able to find a compromise solution: some other place to put the things they were worried about, a desk t
mircea_popescu: hey could lock, another little room. But the point is that people usually don't bother to think about that. They have the idea: “This room is Mine, I can lock it, to hell with everyone else”, and that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have.
mircea_popescu: rms is the true enemy of the republic. he's the mr brian, if you will.
mircea_popescu: no dickless washington bureaucrat is or could ever be as bad as this abominable imbecile.
mircea_popescu: "that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have." <<< mno, pure evil.
mircea_popescu: linux is still nowhere, and microsoft is still derping. he was no antidote. not anymore than mr. brian was antidote to 1984.
mircea_popescu: we could just as well have conversed about the pike carrying gate's head.
mircea_popescu: and for as long as there's a rms to fuck up things, we'll be waiting.
mircea_popescu: in any conflict, there's moderate positions, and then there's extreme positions. if the moderate position is represented (such as here by rms), the problem is papered over, and things continue until we fall over.
mircea_popescu: the correct solution generally is to strangle the moderates.
mircea_popescu: the soul of moderation. yes, very fucking good at marketing his supposed extremism
mircea_popescu: and yet, "that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have."
mircea_popescu: wait, i'm supposed to get excited about the campbell can of soup on the left because it is blue ?
mircea_popescu: each and every time at issue was something irrelevant, he took a principled stand.
mircea_popescu: but when it came to individual versus group, he took the usg stand. also every time.
mircea_popescu: "that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have."
mircea_popescu: i can't see him as anything more or anything else than a decoy.
mircea_popescu: and it is not clear to you that a brian-less 1984 would have lead to anything less than a complete domination right ? after all, at least he gave winston the book, right ?
mircea_popescu: are you familiar with how "animal rights" moved from a laughable nothing to a point of policy ?
mircea_popescu: outright terorism. genuine article rms would have firebombed microsoft offices
mircea_popescu: "you work for microsoft, you get raped in the parking lot and left to bleed"
mircea_popescu: anyway. the more rms i read the less i like him. the more i think about rms, the less i like him.
mircea_popescu: that has exactly nothing to do. i don't like in that way.
mircea_popescu: i am not discussing that he was ineffective, ie, an engineering question. i am discussing that he is evil, ie, an ethical question.
mircea_popescu: under a thin veneer of bullshit he hides all the socialism you could possibly wish for.
mircea_popescu: perhaps. now the counterfactuals clause is certainly kicking in
phf: (logging bot croaked in case people wondering why no updates, will fix in a bit)
phf: there's always backup, so lines are not lost, but everyone is inconvened
phf: hence me talking about "bot is brittle, don't update refs, etc."
deedbot: $reconvene is not a command.
deedbot: $conbibe is not a command.
ben_vulpes: sorry phf i only respond to un-prefixed commands
deedbot: $pizdets is not a command.
deedbot: $пиздец is not a command.
ben_vulpes: for lo, trinque labors over the unicode
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: "random walk" has some /miserable/ css.
ben_vulpes has been reading through it on the mobi term for dayz, but...miserable css makes mobrowser shit itself
ben_vulpes: this is /precisely/ that of which i complain
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: try rotating to landscape
ben_vulpes: this is all immaterial. i don't disagree that it's a nifty "all in 1".
ben_vulpes: i don't...just pointing out the hoops poor d00d had to jump through in order to publish the thing.
phf: bigger concern is not really losing entries, but having invalid id numbers. bot keeps log a b c d bot reconnects and misses a handful of messages g h i j, now in order to insert e f back into the log need to shift g h i j ids forward so if i references h, it's now refering f instead
phf: i assume assbot handled that by having a short reconnect cycle and simply losing a message or two during an outage
☟︎ phf: can of course not have a sequential id/entry mapping, but i think that breaks expectations
phf: correct way is to have n bots running on different machines, connecting to different freenode hosts, talking to each other as they get messages, and then submitting a shared answer
phf: two hard problems in distributed systems, 2. exactly once delivery 1. guaranteed order of messages 2. exactly once delivery
ben_vulpes: man, wouldn't it be neat if CBlockIndex weren't actually a "tree-shaped structure"?
ben_vulpes: or if comments stayed in sync with code or something?
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 20 btc
davout: tl;dr: FROM_UNIXTIME() yields localized strings, not GMT
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 26 btc
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 30 btc
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 33 btc
PeterL: is bidding almost over?
davout: best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 34 btc
davout: PeterL: keeps going until one hour elapses after the last bid
mircea_popescu: davout> tl;dr: FROM_UNIXTIME() yields localized strings, not GMT <<< time implementation is dumb. see also
davout: meanwhile, the bitbet auction best bid is at 41 btc
mircea_popescu: PeterL sounds like the usual cocky bullshit infantile idiots with a useless degree and too much reddit exposure spout.
PeterL: but isn't it the same kinda stuff ALF is always complaining about?
mircea_popescu: and the inept robber and the underpaid policeman also engage in "the same kinda stuff"
davout: meanwhile, the bitbet auction best bid is at 50 btc, aka one full Bitcoin block reward
davout: je viens de mettre une enchère à 60 btc sur bitbet
davout: The bitbet auction best bid now stands at 60 btc
PeterL: asciilifeform> (it is, i think, imitating the rear engine block of 12 cyl 'ferrari' with its air cooled motor) << I always thought it was supposed to provide some shade, keep inside car from heating up in the sun?
mircea_popescu: let's study why people who live off the dole don't build the empire that was.
mircea_popescu: anyone cares enough to see if whoever's left at paymium wants to do a qntra interview ?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: o wow look at that, pete - znort - davout three way free for all! lol.
davout: The bitbet auction best bid now stands at 63.1337 btc
mircea_popescu: im so fucking curious what are the limits of the various parties involved and if any whale lurks lol.
mircea_popescu: but all in all this is SO MUCH like eulora auctions i can't fucking believe.
mircea_popescu: is it past the end ? what's the cutoff, 1 hr from 10:28 art ?
davout: The bitbet auction best bid now stands at 70 btc
davout: mircea_popescu: one hour after the bid war has stopped basically
mircea_popescu: right so technically speaking, time of last bid + 1 hr, and last bid is at 10:33 ie right now
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> 'More than 40% of Americans who borrowed from the government’s main student-loan program aren’t making payments << incidentally... i own a coupla of these.
mircea_popescu: they'll make any payments sometime after microsoft-loses-license-o'clock.
davout: still 12 minutes left to outbid pete_dushenski
danielpbarron: ;;later tell pete_dushenski congrats on winning bitbet!
danielpbarron: btw his clearsigned thing got mangled by your site, davout ; easy fix to confirm is add two hyphens to each group of hyphens
davout: danielpbarron: i usually add <pre> tags
davout: imma check the precise timestamps
davout: danielpbarron: yeah, i'm adding them myself since wp is retarded
PeterL: cutting it close to the deadline, did the bid get in on time?
mircea_popescu pictures various groups frantically trying to gather more liquidity while the +1 btc bit bought them a little time etc
danielpbarron: hm, that latest bid doesn't seem to be signed properly
PeterL: semms the comment system is magling the pgp-isms inline signaling
danielpbarron: well i was able to fix pete's myself and see that it verified, but the same trick didn't work on znort's
davout: also i fell of chair when i discovered wp_comments table has two fields comment_date_gmt, and comment_date
davout: danielpbarron: it's not over
davout: danielpbarron: it's *not* over
davout: the sig is valid once i add <pre>s
danielpbarron: right, i thought maybe znort had made the bid an hour ago and it was he who won
davout: half an hour left to take home bbet
davout: if anyone cares i'm done bidding
davout: everyone's my sockpuppet except pete who's being milked for the shareholders
davout: asciilifeform: dude is in wot
davout: he's not wotless that's all
PeterL: I forget, what did decimation do wrong?
mircea_popescu: there isn't any air for the whole "oh i did nothing wrong" contribution.
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
davout: $gettrust deedbot znort987
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
PeterL: meh, just wondering, I guess I can search through logs
davout: looks like pete is done bidding
davout: this znort fellow doesn't show up when grepping my logpile
davout: l'argent n'a pas d'odeur
davout: aha, i misunderstood, thought he asked pointers to the forum's logs
davout: aaaaand pete is back in the race with a 72 btc bid
PeterL: mircea_popescu mpex faq still points to #bitcoin-assets
gernika: asciilifeform: aqcuirers of web sites typically want all sorts of metrics about the site that might be in the logs.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dunno, www world is enamoured with "metrics" and whatnot
davout: guess imma make myself some tea, this isn't going to be resolved today at this rate
mircea_popescu: i have a trilema article all ready for when this finally happened, went to bed expecting to publish it this morn... no dice...
PeterL: asciilifeform maybe you just took the wrong strategy, should have waited until the end to go from .001 to 9 btc, scare everybody else off
mircea_popescu: in any case he held top bid for a longer interval than the eventual winner is likely to :D
mircea_popescu: see alfie, metrics. they make any reality more palatable.
davout: aaand pete_dushenski takes the lead with a 74 btc bid
shinohai: And znort counters with 75 ).0
mircea_popescu: shares a bar for url and search ? "click here to log what you type in url bar which we now call omnibar" ? there's no way to see cookies, all you can do is "obliterate" items, and limited to "from the past...." so you can't actually purge the shitbag ?
mircea_popescu: popups to translate pages "not in the languages i speak" ? wtf does it know what languages i speak
phf: mircea_popescu: you've not looked at "modern" browsers in a while
mircea_popescu: oh, don't tell me, i could "save setings online and access them from any browser"
mircea_popescu: "continue rtunning background apps when chromium is closed" thing takes the cake. nigga, say wut ?!
phf: yeah, that's about how long it's been since you could get a decent browser behavior. i think that's when firefox switched from "general purpose xul renderer" to "modern browser"
mircea_popescu: "the web" as a sort of google-run itunes store ? in the grand tradition of the bbs archive ?
davout: and why's pete_dushenski not around?
phf: betting 74btc from his iphone at a brunch or something
PeterL: what would you use instead?
PeterL: firefox used to be the best, now it just feels slow and clunky when I try to use it
PeterL: has the leak gotten bigger with time?
trinque: meanwhile chromium's got "native client"
trinque: because who doesn't want to run binary blobs in a web page?
trinque: google reinvents activex, is so totally not msft of 2010s
jurov: acc. to my hands-on experience, haskell's problem is not the cpu
jurov: but that it took the "machine with unlimited memory" abstraction and took it to extreme
jurov: but making it split work between cores is much easier
jurov: than to get it not to hog memory by filling it with lazy comuptation thunks
jurov: i had to mark almost *everything* by "yes compute this now, not leave it to later"
mircea_popescu: honestly a proper modern fortran would prolly be worth the time to make. this specifically means upgrading it more towards derive than towards haskell
mircea_popescu: recall what our dispute (of sorts) re ada ended up resolving as ? "hey man - it may pretend it's not like c - but it's like c".
mircea_popescu: there's fundamentally two ways to approach computing : as an engineer and as a mathematician.
mircea_popescu: there's some shoddy solutions for the first. chiefly, c. people don't like them, but it is also possibly the case that they've gotten as close as possible.
mircea_popescu: so i don't have to point out to you that yes it is, "even" "mod" etc.
mircea_popescu: mk, we have to [re]do that discussion in depth, i guess.
phf: alf is deeply infatuated at the moment with ada, so you should wait a few months :p
mircea_popescu: "mod is not definable here because hey, abstract types. nevermind, > is defined, fuck abstract6 types".
phf: asciilifeform: well, same way as no particular alternatives were seen to tinyscheme few months ago
mircea_popescu: " people don't like them, but it is also possibly the case that they've gotten as close as possible." <<< we're in exact agreement, here. no alternative known, and not likely possible.
mircea_popescu: an engineering machine is one where you define bitcoin max coins as it's defined, and you end up with a max equal to 20999999.9769 btc.
phf: asciilifeform: recall that i spent probably most time here on tinyscheme going as far as writing swank integration and unreleased bignums, i'm saying that you go through phases of "this is how we solve bitcoin". i grok the value of ada, and i grok the value of scheme, but neither are alternative-less. in fact with the amount of skill available, simply hacking on btc consistently we would've been further along
mircea_popescu: a math machine is one where you define bitcoin max coins and the sum works properly and the series converges to 21mn
mircea_popescu: so this is what i mean by "it's a c" : whatever the fuck you do, it's still going to be an ugly hack where you "can't define this" but nevertheless define THAT, which is just as broken.
mircea_popescu: it's true that haskell tries and splendidly fails at being not-this.
davout: aaaand pete_dushenski is at 85
mircea_popescu: how are you going to define a sorting rule for a type you don't know yet.
mircea_popescu: so then are you saying ada shouldn't allow either mod or > ?
mircea_popescu: ie, that the thing as-is is broken, and should be fixed, but other than that the idea is ok ?
mircea_popescu: the problem is this : in ada manual it is said, "So we see that the predicate in the subtype Even cannot be a static predicate because the operator mod is not permitted with the current instance. But mod could be used in an inner static expression." ; it is further said "and, in addition, a call of a Boolean logical operator and, or, xor, not whose operands are such static predicate expressions, and, a static predicate expres
mircea_popescu: to the question "why did they not define EVEN correctly, eschewing this problem they perceive with mod" you answer that " ada is a civilized lang like commonlisp and there is NOT a presumption that integers are machine words !". This objection, if accepted as the correct response, ALSO invalidates using, say, XOR, and for the same reason.
mircea_popescu: the fundamental problem here being, obviously enough, that the FORMALISM used to describe math for and in computers is shit. and yes, on that shitty basis you will never have math, but an engineering-useful hack.
mircea_popescu: so yes, i can understand WHY you'd like it, think you need it, see it as best or better.
mircea_popescu: but all this ~fundamentally c discussion~ which is EXACTLY what it is,
mircea_popescu: has no bearing on the problem that hey, math is still not represented, and some people'd like it to be.
mircea_popescu: no, it sounds like until the day you can machine-represent an irrational quality without rounding, you're lying to yourself about having washed anything.
mircea_popescu: and this is why it goes all the way down to fortran. the unresolved problems are actually very deep.
mircea_popescu: i picked it as a point because of the "abstract number" thing, ie, redefine 4.
mircea_popescu: (that is in practice an equivalent of the mantissa trick, it allows you to get out of all sorts of problems)
mircea_popescu: yeah well. my theoretically-useful example failed the test of practice.
mircea_popescu: but in the end, i say this : the difference between 20999999.9769 and 21000000.0000 is the unpayable change. point of fact remains that we can't escape this situation where we draw one thing, and the machine pops up another thing.
mircea_popescu: and the problem is not, apparently, resolvable by fixing the machines. even if you had ideal machines, they'd still haveto halve blocks, and the results would still conceivably be... this.
mircea_popescu: nothing imaginary about it, it's factual. the sum total of all satoshi in existence once the bitcoin ran its course will not be 21mn, but 131k satoshi less.
mircea_popescu: there is no way to represent "all the numbers between 1 and 2" in a finite space.
jurov: mircea_popescu: there is, using ranges
mircea_popescu: jurov ranges are a sort of abstraction unavailable to computers.
mircea_popescu: it is, in places such as ada, "must use contiguity" the EXACT equivalent of "my ai program thinks because the procedure is called <<understanding>>"
mircea_popescu: there is no such thing as contiguity or ranges that machines can grok.
phf: i don't understand why the point mircea_popescu would be so controversial among compscis here, it's sort of the whole point of numerical analysis
mircea_popescu: and for that matter, among even numbers 2 - 8 is as much of a range as 1-4 is among natural numbers.
phf: alf keeps saying that there are localized solutions to various classes of numerical problems
jurov: mircea_popescu: there's "unum" numeric system that does support ranges, and is improved replacement of ieee floats
phf: mp keeps saying that you don't have a way to solve it as an abstract
mircea_popescu: it's well established for ~3 centuries now, i kinda feel like leibniz already.
phf: which is entirely true, this is like intro to von neumann 101
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you can't define jack shit for a cpu without actually lying somewhere about what you did. is the problem.
jurov: btw, i doubt continuum can be grokked by humas, either
jurov: all we have is some deryp prrof that "we think of something that we don't know how to map to N"
phf: it's a philosophical discussion, and mp, not being a programmer, is realizing that ada or c or .. is not actually it from where he stands, doesn't mean can't be used, just not magick.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: let's work a simple example. suppose the case is that your machine is required to behave coherently with the rule that " among even numbers 2 - 8 is as much of a range as 1-4 is among natural numbers". the MOMENT your solution to this was "simple, just take $i*2", you have in fact c'd it.
mircea_popescu: phf worse that that, utterly undermines the fundamental reason against many things we supposedly argue against fundamentally.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in your terms : it IS NOT possible to make abstraction that does not leak until [condition about machine and only machine]. ALL the abstractions you make WILL leak once you run out of BRAIN.
phf: mircea_popescu: fwiw a lot of vlsi research in the 70s and 80s was about that, how do we make bedrock a lot less engineery, but that all died with microcomputer revolution(sic)
mircea_popescu: basically, all the architecture systems architects have managed yet to produce is the equivalent of "we need 10.1k builders - 100 to build and 10k to hold up the walls once we're done".
☟︎☟︎ mircea_popescu: i agree the crisis may only be in my head, but in point of fact i'm getting a whole paradigm reallignment thing, slightly queasy atm.
jurov: isn't this parallel with old greeks thinking "all numbers are rational".. till they found out they can't?
phf: except opposite? all the math, until you find out that immediately available reality is finite
mircea_popescu: phf the greeks notably thought they can build things, because they know "the actual value of pi"
mircea_popescu: except the larger the things they tried to build, the worse it got. but then they fixed it. because, as alf the greek beedog says, "it IS possioble to make wall that won't leak!!11"|
mircea_popescu: so yea, i would say this is very much equivalent. we CAN'T actually make computer systems. and every time we try to make a larger one, we're stuck re-calculating a sort of "pi"
mircea_popescu: about which the only thing that can be rightly said is that - it will crash the next larger system.
mircea_popescu: when i say "therefore - we should all eat an onion" you can bring that obhection
mircea_popescu: or to put it another way : the reason software houses denegerate into makework facilities is much more fundamental than any sort of policy. in point of fact, a numeric computer of the sort we're using is NOT useful in either logic or math but as a shorhand for an actual logician or mathematician that takes the abortive nonsense the machine spits out, and enchants it into actual usable truth.
mircea_popescu: and there's no way to specify him out of the machine or vice-versa. for reasons that perhaps go all the way to godel
mircea_popescu: this'd make the "march lords in a wot - take your fief and guard it" naive approach to date actually very well grounded both factually and now philosophically ; and also offer a ready explanation of "why all this shit everywhere!"
mircea_popescu: yes. but it remains impossible for this proggy to be useful in the abstract :)
phf: (that's one of the reasons i thought one of the more effective ways of organizing computer human interaction is have an equivalent of dune mentat backed by a computer, i.e. an advisor to decision makers who performs computation and analysis. something like that existed at the height of apl, and i know a handful of now old apl-ers who sat on boards and were responsible almost exclusively for "running the numbers")
mircea_popescu: so it does. for reasons better understood now, at least by me.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, this is exactly how the trade houses used to work,
phf: in which case the kind of machines that the mentats are backed by require very particular characteristics, e.g. power above "novice usability" etc. so lisp machines and apl machines
mircea_popescu: before the "mentats" got into depression, heavy drinking and asscrack-cracksnorting.
mircea_popescu: even in countries far distant in time and space, that couldn't rightly spell it./
mircea_popescu: in short, and to sum up : there may never exist such a thing as the "general purpose computer"
phf: the person that i was a [big bank] vendor with is actually doing that right now. a trained apl-er and mathematician, having spent few years interacting with [big bank] decision makers now consults on a handshake basis for companies that need a problem solved, but don't care if it comes with a pretty windows gui
☟︎ phf: of course, general purpose computer was always a device that high cast professional would sit in front in order to do computations, augmented by external systems or additional special purpose interchangeable boards. at least that was a pretty shared vision from engelbard to symbolics before the microcomputer
☟︎ mircea_popescu: im thinking it was actually a delusion, driven by peculiar circumstance that was both exceptional and unlikely to repeat.
mircea_popescu: much of the same substance as rms' "oh, all things belong to all people", ie, lazy reductionism.
mircea_popescu: but hey, welfare works for as long it works, so does this.
phf: well, it was post-war boomers, left leaning hippie intelligentsia who grep up on asimov and such, in a country awash with free money, all that euro gold
phf: culture that percolated into mass media through star trek federation and such
mircea_popescu: i am left without a solid basis to protest the use of magic numbers in code ;/
mircea_popescu: but at least the whole "technology offers no solution for human problems" intuition now has much better footing in fact.
mircea_popescu: anyway. the forever-bitcoin, ready to be buried under the sea or w/e, is not happening. because : "<mircea_popescu> how are you going to define a sorting rule for a type you don't know yet. <asciilifeform> by knowing it ?" is actually inescapable.
☟︎ phf: i feel like i have some code laying around to do comparison, but won't have wandwidth for a bit
mircea_popescu: Nov 27 03:56:48 * assbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
mircea_popescu: Nov 27 03:58:53 * assbot (~assbot@unaffiliated/kakobrekla/bot/assbot) has joined #bitcoin-assets
phf: about 2 minutes round time, yeah that's what i'm getting just doing an aggressive reconnect. note that there's possibly a lack of log visibility few seconds before it "quit"
deedbot: idioter voiced for 30 minutes.
gribble: Current Blocks: 406197 | Current Difficulty: 1.668515132827772E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 407231 | Next Difficulty In: 1034 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 3 hours, 8 minutes, and 41 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
phf: so doing awk through my logs, there's almost 10k lines "missing"
mircea_popescu: this is WHY your "fits in head", btw. well justified cover for the "on the basis of the pi we know, the largest house that can stand is 11 feet tall"
idioter: hello. i made a withdrawal on coinbr.com from mpex about 4 days ago. i have been told i need to talk to mircea popescu about it.
mircea_popescu: idioter yeah loads of btc moving since mpex sale. hold tight, you'll get it.
idioter: is there any approximate information about when the withdrawals will be made?
pete_dushenski: since 5:30am onwards, my goodness what an eventful day
mircea_popescu: lol i guess you're gonna buy a new car with the btc thus saved ?
mircea_popescu: anyway, re earlier discussion, i guess it'd be worth belabouring the point that nothing therein contained is an argument against using ada. it's still a great technical solution, for bounds checking, for other reasons, it's still a great practical solution, for native linkability with c object code, for other reasons. same stands for scheme, still best option for a scripting language for bitcoind.
mircea_popescu: (contrary to what noob scientists may think, "a breadbox" is neither arbitrary nor undefined in that sentence)
shinohai: Thanks for making my day entertaining anyway pete_dushenski o/
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform geometry doesn't really matter until physics decides d^x is a factor :D
pete_dushenski: ;;later tell davout don't scare-excite me like that next time! (wait, what next time?) also, i wanted to show up here, but couldn't quite meditate and irc atst
☟︎ mircea_popescu: "Ada.Text_IO is a "package" that comes with Ada. (In Ada 83, the package name is just Text_IO, and for compatibility, Ada 95 also accepts the shorter name.) We'll learn more about packages later."
pete_dushenski: ^updated. realised i'd left the calculated p/e in months rather than the standard years.
pete_dushenski: aha. was speaking to two other points in s.bbet's history however : peak and present
pete_dushenski: heh fr.anco.is shows pingbacks in 'recent comments'. i'll take the free advertising.
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell davout delete xmlrpc.php from your wordpress install and you will be 95% of the way to securing your blawg
☟︎☟︎ phf: so i don't read hackernews or reddit, they are mentioned here a lot though, so i decided to check if a sale of bitcoin company for 86BTC (damn) is going to get mentioned anywhere. nope. nada.
mircea_popescu: phf they mostly get mentioned derisively, tho. it's a sort of templeos/timecube/whatever, they got their alt-reality, sticking to it, nothing happens in it, etc.
mircea_popescu: weirdo guy going on about god something or the other ?
mircea_popescu: so you like templeos because it has persistence and graham because, apparently, gavin doesn't have to work for a living.
pete_dushenski: phf: if the sale of a bitcoin company for 250k btc didn't get mentioned, a measly 86 btc sale doesn't stand much chance of crossing the lips of the peeple
mircea_popescu: "it wasn't a real company because we didn't count for shit in the sale"
mircea_popescu: you know, sorta like how "russia is not real country because putin doesn't invite obama over"
phf: top /r/bitcoin post is about some guy for bought bitcoin for $20 that he forgot about, now has $800k. this is like The Sun style bullshit "found million dollars in gradma attick"
mircea_popescu: you know, thinking about it... what exactly is the rationale even of the concept of "int" ?
mircea_popescu: it's a cheap hack to get things cached through "registers", sure.
mircea_popescu: cpu should have proper cache ; wtf is a "register" even in 2016.
mircea_popescu: there is ~no reason to use the c representation or notion of number at all.
mircea_popescu: it's not directly clear the notion of bit is even relevant
mircea_popescu: i'm unpersuaded. yes the breadbox is neither arbitrary nor undefined in the bug discussion. here however, no such benefit. there is no "size".
mircea_popescu: in entirely unrelated but omfg i can't believe this - cascadia dwelling derpy mother of slavegirl that wants to think of self as "fiber artist" but otherwise crochets like any old woman since time immemorial, landed what to her appears as a very good deal. she sells her stuff in a senior citizen center gift shop. for a 15% comission. to understand each other : she provides the merchandise. she provides the sales workforce. sh
mircea_popescu: dude... what happened to full price for the stock + full wage for me selling it + benefits.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no i know the history of how it ended up in. i'm just saying, it really is pretty stupid, useless and wtf already.
mircea_popescu: nothing you can possibly touch in a day of trying has an owner. nothing.
mircea_popescu: it's mortgaged, hypotecated, securitized, sold, bought and transfered. nothing belongs to anyone or anything.
mircea_popescu: you think the situation is peculiar to gold ? it is not.
mircea_popescu: so... no. no folks. no anything. just a snake of pressed shit eating its tail and wondering why the process is lossy.
mircea_popescu: this isn't a point, this is a psychogenic bit of nonsense.
mircea_popescu: a similar cognitive process would be to say : a) i don't fuck bricks ; b) another exists ; c) therefore, another fucks bricks.
mircea_popescu: and ftr, the woman would make 10x to 100x more selling on street.
mircea_popescu: da fuck, most buskers make more than her by a fat margin.
mircea_popescu: which is the problem here. even when it works, the "appstore" didn't work for the rational reason, but for the irrational one.
mircea_popescu: as evidenced to me and for my needs by the plain fact that even when the actual rational explanation is no longer applicable,
mircea_popescu: these people are, basically, very dedicated cultists. they WANT a CERTAIN SOMETHING to be how things work. and will disregard and ignore anything and everything else. because they're not, fundamentally, opressed. they're, fundamentally, nazis.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> i'm in awe of what ustardia can do to people. << PUBLISHING!!!
hanbot: mircea_popescu it's possible something like that is the cheaper option for a certain sort of person in a certain sort of context
hanbot: particularly when old age enters into this.
hanbot: the initiative and work involved in the actual sales is rarely something an old woman can accomplish
mircea_popescu: the only thing she can't do is, construct the mental infrastructure of pretense she subscribes to.
hanbot: i thought it's some sort of leave yer shit in our kiosk and we'll sell it sorta deal
mircea_popescu: much like byzantine peasant couldn't construct the orthodox delusion ; much like alf teh bee dog can't construct washington.
mircea_popescu: hanbot no, she physically mans the kiosk. like the job someone would be normally hired to do, and get a wage.
BingoBoingo: So, I drove by well over a million dollars in ruined construction equipment this morning.
BingoBoingo: Apparently some asshole dug into a 10 inch natural gas pipe
BingoBoingo: You'd be surprised where they pipe gas here
BingoBoingo: Anyways, my zimbabwe is prolly less zimbabwe than yours.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Did not emerge from asphale, about 15-20 feet away from asphalt. Crew that exploded pipe was doing some shit to prep the site for an old folks home.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> like the sov towns in far east that are frozen ghost towns now. << this makes one hell of a trip btw.
mircea_popescu: and tbh, at some point in the 90s moscow was half falling over, actually.
mircea_popescu: fortunately no earthquakes. hopefully they mostly fixed it.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: washington bridges might not be falling, but what kind of a nation's capital closes light rail lines ?
hanbot: didn't i see some pic or other of moscow's main freeway, >15 lanes, absolutely gridlocked?
mod6: good convo today re: ada/c/math machine, etc.
mod6: i want math machine
pete_dushenski: ;;later tell ben_vulpes i can see why you like that shelbyllet : it's aircraft meets muscle car. and wouldja check out that inboard/pushrod suspension! mega-nifty. largely unseen on street cars outside lambo aventador ($500k) and, of course, pagani ($1mn+++)
mod6: pete_dushenski: hey I did get your message about the weird balance thing. i've seen that myself too.
pete_dushenski: not like i wasn't planning how i'd overcome this retardation if i was going to be handling >100 txen per mo, but hey, someone else's problem now i guess