asciilifeform: ;;later tell pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-29#1492926 << realize that he's gone full bore kako since ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-29 22:54 pete_dushenski: $rate funkenstein_ 2 trb privkey patch guy
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-29#1492935 << '40s was the time when agrarian shitholes had the choice - the ones that had a choice - of conversion to fascist industrial power, or to die.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-29 23:06 pete_dushenski: https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-y60FUvYArHQ/V3NKW6Xcf0I/AAAAAAAAmlA/7RzX6L0Tvt8tkXkTkpVK1tgizTxfWsrZgCLcB/s1600/IMG_1483.JPG << fdr = 'apostle of lasting peace for all mankind' ? lol how could he be remembered as anything other than a wrecker ? a bank robber ? stalin's villainous left hand ?
asciilifeform: ;;later tell trinque do we have any means for ~viewing~ ratings? btcalpha is ~dead (kakotronic)
gribble: The operation succeeded.
trinque: gave psql access to phf to that end
asciilifeform: ah so in progress.
trinque: afaik. phf, if not, lemme know and I'll whip something up
shinohai misses btcalpha
trinque: also btw, chars mangled to " in wot are fixed.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-29#1492482 << l0l! the 'battleships' (now 'galaxies') were for sale a few yrs back, even, when i sold mine☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-29 01:08 phf: "You can buy one or more Urbit stars for $256 - or, TODAY ONLY, only $205."
asciilifeform: 'star' is 1/256th of 'galaxy'
asciilifeform: but yes, even then mr mold was quite explicit about making the thing a 'usg-hypoallergenic' altcoin.
asciilifeform: which is when i quit.
asciilifeform: (my 'ship' didn't cost me anything, it was a prize for solving the original puzzle he posted)
trinque: anyone happen to know the message rate limit on freenode?
mod6: quick search doesn't show anything definitive. but you could always check in #freenode, trinque
trinque: yeh I'll do that
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1492974 << this is actually true, as impolitic as it may seem today.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 00:15 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-29#1492935 << '40s was the time when agrarian shitholes had the choice - the ones that had a choice - of conversion to fascist industrial power, or to die.
mircea_popescu: trinque iirc it was 1/s
shinohai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/YA2
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: Adventures in Pipe wrench ownership milestone #3 Disassembling everything to the wall, and debating whether or not to wake up reciprocating saw to open wall.
deedbot: [Qntra] US Customs Seeks To Control Social Media Imports - http://qntra.net/2016/06/us-customs-seeks-to-control-social-media-imports/
shinohai: Did your vinegar bath help fix the yardsale wrench btw?
BingoBoingo: shinohai: Amazingly.
BingoBoingo: Wrench's bath has been interupted periodically though to work.
BingoBoingo: Has nice African finish now
shinohai: Nice.
shinohai: I used to do the homebrew electrolysis thing to remove rust.
BingoBoingo: Seriously though the power of this thing. With the occasional squirt of PB Blaster no fitting has failed to yeild to patience and pipe wrench.
BingoBoingo: Wrench also has wood on handle wrapped in electrical tape
BingoBoingo: bargain at any price
shinohai: I rather like older tools, don't mod the maintenance. Most tools sold in stores locally are garbage.
shinohai: *mind
BingoBoingo: More seriously though fuck whoever though galvanized iron ought to be used for drains
BingoBoingo: What would have been wrong with 1950's folk using nylon drain pipe while they waited for PVC to arrive?
BingoBoingo: Oh, that's where danielpbarron was. He rediscovered girls.
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: 418595 | Current Difficulty: 2.0945315859538098E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 419327 | Next Difficulty In: 732 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 23 hours, 30 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1492971 << for all the times i've heard the exclusively alfian term of art 'kakotronic', it's never quite registered. care to explain like i'm 5 ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 00:11 asciilifeform: ;;later tell pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-29#1492926 << realize that he's gone full bore kako since ?
pete_dushenski: though it's no mega-mystery that funkestein_ has always been an odd duck
pete_dushenski: reading his blog for 2 seconds will tell you that much
pete_dushenski: i'm also assuming that 'full bore kako' and 'kakotronic' are interchangeable here
pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1492974 << that's definitely a consideration. worked for japan, germany, russia, us at least. maybe not italy and uk as much.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 00:15 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-29#1492935 << '40s was the time when agrarian shitholes had the choice - the ones that had a choice - of conversion to fascist industrial power, or to die.
pete_dushenski: $unrate kakobrekla
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/322f3ab0-4ae2-4de4-a5a1-272b3ae6d35c/
pete_dushenski: $v 97C4062F0E8DD46BAB1F32DD8EC73EEEF793458BA8FFE03DC91A46828490AA4B
deedbot: pete_dushenski unrated kakobrekla.
pete_dushenski: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-29/-tesla-solar-wants-to-be-the-apple-store-for-electricity << speaking of the infantile mindset.
pete_dushenski: also, it would appear that musk's scammy usg-funded acquisition of one of his failed enterprises by his other failing enterprise missed the logs.
pete_dushenski: tesla laid out plans to 'acquire' solarcity for $2.86 bn last week
BingoBoingo: Eh, he's just trying to rockefeller the sun
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski didn't work for italy because, in spite of rural shithole, nevertheless delusions of grandeur, and unwarranted impressions that "we've already smoked this joint".
mircea_popescu: uk got ruined by bad money, spanish empire style.
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: 'the verticals and the horizontals'!!1
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: spanish empire style ? i'm ignorant of this style
mircea_popescu: it's a style where you import gold by the galleon only to see rents go up and not much else.
pete_dushenski: aha. san fran style
pete_dushenski: arguably nyc idem
mircea_popescu: money is a terrible curse.
mircea_popescu: ("if money's a curse, let god strike me down with it! and may i never recover.")
pete_dushenski: seriously wtf is wrong with broadway atm. 'hamilton' ? really ??!
pete_dushenski: tevye!
BingoBoingo: Money's perfectly harmless until it gets spent
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493015 << sitting in kako's chan and derping every day re 'mp is sc4mz0r!111' to anyone who'll listen☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 02:57 pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1492971 << for all the times i've heard the exclusively alfian term of art 'kakotronic', it's never quite registered. care to explain like i'm 5 ?
asciilifeform: see for yerself..
pete_dushenski: 'hamilton', for those blissfully unaware, is this 'hip' new play written by some mexican queer about founding father alexander hamilton's rise to glory complete with more break dancing and rapped lyrics than you can throw a harlem globetrotter at
pete_dushenski: it's won however many tonies
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: right. i guess that pankakke and tat fit in similarly.
asciilifeform is very aware. pet is a fan.
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: tat didn't reappear again after creaming his pants initially
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: pet has seen ? tix are running $1k per last i heard
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: has seen, i sent her
asciilifeform: (in the last week of original actors, 12-15k)
pete_dushenski: well there's your dirigible money right there ;)
asciilifeform: dun ask me why.
asciilifeform: well no i didn't send her in last week, l0l
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: does pet not have income for such frivolities ?
asciilifeform: pet has 0 income
asciilifeform: hence why it is called...
asciilifeform: a pet.
asciilifeform: like your cat and dog.
pete_dushenski: legit pet.
asciilifeform: aha.
pete_dushenski: though dog, like child, can 'perform' in 'shows' for prizes
pete_dushenski: if so desired
asciilifeform: theoretically.
asciilifeform: anyway iirc h was by a straight dude from puerto rico. fwiw.
asciilifeform: and was perfectly fine broadway play, and hilarious, washington et al 'rapping' like hood ratz etc.
mircea_popescu: break dancing ? seriously ?
mircea_popescu: next they're gonna wear bell bottoms.
asciilifeform: http://www.pbfcomics.com/209 << obligatory.
mircea_popescu: wow i've never seen wget at 15.x gb of ram before.
asciilifeform: waiwat?!
mircea_popescu: yeah.
asciilifeform: whatcha wgettin'
mircea_popescu: reddit
mircea_popescu: is it actually efficient re memory usage ? anyone know specifically ?
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: so you saw the play with her ? 'sent' sounded like a solo recon mission
asciilifeform: i only heard it.
pete_dushenski: https://mobile.twitter.com/Lin_Manuel/status/724103242200821761 << 'straight' eh. miranda looks pretty queer to me.
pete_dushenski: why mobile why ?
mircea_popescu: lol you got gaydar installed ?
pete_dushenski: it came standard with my arts school diploma
trinque: $b 2
trinque: gave it the old college try?
pete_dushenski: try ? more like twink.
pete_dushenski: though this was back in mittelschule
pete_dushenski: ie. where i first took classes in english and was marked wrong on a geography test where i answered 'ouest'
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493076 << it leaks☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 03:40 mircea_popescu: is it actually efficient re memory usage ? anyone know specifically ?
asciilifeform: most folks dun notice , given as it exits
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all --currency rmb
gribble: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 4244.28, vol: 37972.96650000 | Volume-weighted last average: 4244.28
phf: "A 10-year-old Girl Applied to the Paris Summer Innovation Fellowship (facebook.com)"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform myeah, im finding.
asciilifeform: did she tear up old alarm clock using ruby on rails and get medal from obummer yet ?
phf: “The streets of Paris are sad. I want to build a robot that will make them happy again. I’ve already starting learning how to code on Thymio robots, but I have trouble making it work. I want to join the program so the mentors can help me.”
mircea_popescu: god
phf: "Welcome aboard our spaceship, Eva. We’re very much looking forward to meeting you in person.
phf: All the best from Paris,
phf: Kat Borlongan
phf: Founding Partner, Five by Five"
phf: "A School Where the Students Hire Their Teachers (wbez.org)"
asciilifeform: bhhhrrrlf
phf: "Urbit Is Building a 'Virtual Galaxy' for Bitcoin Nodes (coindesk.com)"
phf: "Are You an Awesome Product Designer? LeadGenius (YC S11) Is Hiring (lever.co)"
phf: i have a bunch of sites blocked on my router, google's and facebook's ip ranges, reddit, hackernews, but sometimes i load them up in hidemyass to see how things are on the other side of the world
asciilifeform: snoretronic
pete_dushenski: more like lulztronic
pete_dushenski: this, actually, is a useful heuristic : alf sees snore --> pete sees lulz
asciilifeform: snulz.
asciilifeform bbl
phf: yeah, it's pretty funny for couple of minutes
pete_dushenski: like most stand-up since 2000
phf: a conversation about racism on lobste.rs "urwid crowdsale" thread is also quite piquant
phf: "As a not-completely-cynical participant in a democratic society and a half-assed amateur philosopher, I’m about as turned off by Yarvin as I could be."
phf: etc.
mircea_popescu: aww.
phf: "We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews. Here’s what happened. Posted by user Aline Lerner"
pete_dushenski feels himself becoming ryan gosling's character in 'the believer'
phf: i'll spoil it for you, ""Contrary to what we expected, masking gender had no effect on interview performance"
pete_dushenski to self-loathing slumber
mircea_popescu: lol!
trinque: IRC's rate-limiting is a bummer.
trinque: I was going to add commands to dump inward and outward reputation for a given nick, but neh
trinque: would take minutes for some of us
trinque: I put the blame on us ending up with the idiotic web, REST APIs, and etc squarely on IRC having been designed by monkeys
trinque: command line > *
trinque: help us alfie-wan kenobi; you're our only hope
mircea_popescu: trinque could just put it in wotpaste no ?
trinque: yeah that's what I'm going to do instead
phf: you kind of need to write a graph walker, and since you're doing it in sql, i don't even know how to make it not suck
trinque: for gettrust I just join the same table twice
trinque: can actually do it recursively using pgsql magic if I needed
trinque: say you wanted Ln
phf: i don't want to know! it's much nicer when the whole thing's in memory :>
trinque: lol, I didn't say this was pretty sausage
phf: i have a backlog of making bot pull from backup logger in case of disconnect, which is the last bit before auto-reconnecting-bot
phf: and then i want to make search case-insensitive, which turned out to be iffy with boyermoore
phf: and THEN i'm going to do wot
phf: so if anyone wants to swoop in and implement it
trinque: two new commands that dump sexp data:
trinque: $ratings trinque
deedbot: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/99e38487-d0e7-4969-b403-bb603f33fa5c/
trinque: $reputation trinque
deedbot: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/c211411f-3cf2-47de-acdb-428a2d1529e3/
mircea_popescu: nb!
trinque: phf: how do I get prin1 (or something more sensible) to barf an sexp with a euro symbol in it?
trinque: it's bitching about that. after which I will have a $wot command that pastes the whole thing
trinque: ah derp it's the paste uploader barfing.
trinque: ben_vulpes: ey is there a max size of a paste?
ben_vulpes: huh excellent q
trinque: $reputation trinque
deedbot: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/60a8d53a-c603-4f7c-9b08-c6fa5a247612/
trinque: that works
trinque: $wot
deedbot: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/
trinque: boom
ben_vulpes: oblige with a skosh more detail?
trinque: both use the same "throw this here paste at mr ben_vulpes" function
trinque: just $wot is massive
ben_vulpes: ah
ben_vulpes: paste's logging is...primitive.
ben_vulpes: intrigued to see what the response looks like.
trinque: k lemme copy teh data down to dev box
trinque: thing's like 2.5mb btw
trinque: ben_vulpes: 413 Request Entity Too Large
trinque: prolly a knob on your nginx or w/e
trinque: then perhaps also whatever thinger is running your proggy
trinque: yeh that came from nginx
trinque: client_max_body_size 4M;
trinque: that will be enough for a bit
ben_vulpes: ty trinque will diddle
jurov: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/03/business/dealbook/bitcoin-china.html
jurov: Mr. Wu and the other mining pool operators in China have often seemed somewhat surprised, and even unhappy, that their investments have given them decision-making power within the Bitcoin network. “Miners are the hardware guys.
jurov: Why are you asking us about software?” is the line that Mr. Ng said he often hears from miners.
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493057 << hopefully not one of those expensive pets.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 03:32 asciilifeform: pet has 0 income
shinohai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/YKg Preeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet
gribble: The operation succeeded.
BingoBoingo: ty shinohai
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron hey listen, your latest posts inspired me, an' now i have a project for you.
mircea_popescu: i want you to research the legal status of a registered church in the us, as well as the practicalities of registering one. this is a serious project, and i expect 100s of hours spent reading up on it. gpgram me about it.
shinohai: ty BingoBoingo send donations for the designated shitting street to 1preetzHWEUfmGuW5ast5hMTJNYU1bmGo
BingoBoingo: lol is that an actual address you have key 4?
shinohai: lol yeah I actually was going to put it up on bitfunder but naturally got rejected.
shinohai: I am seriously researching buying some cheap field in India for this purpose
mircea_popescu: shinohai which purpose is this ?
shinohai: For the purpose of getting a designated shitting street named after Preeeeeet.
mircea_popescu: lmao
deedbot: [Qntra] Preet Indicts Hondurans In Honduras - http://qntra.net/2016/06/preet-indicts-hondurans-in-honduras/
thestringpuller: bitfunder is still a thing?
BingoBoingo: Is authentic? https://thestack.com/security/2016/06/29/2-million-person-terror-database-leaked-online/
asciilifeform: 'Additionally, information is not available to the general public who may not be aware that they are on such a list, but whose bank accounts and business transactions may be cancelled without warning or recourse. Banks are not required by law to provide consumers with a reason for account closures, and World-Check has a binding secrecy clause for users of the service.'
mircea_popescu: heh
shinohai: BingoBoingo: s/handing/handed/g ?
BingoBoingo: ty fxd
asciilifeform: not, afaik, actually leaked.
asciilifeform: just dangled by some 'responsible' fuckhead.
shinohai: In other news, r/btc is celebrating this morning imagining that angry miners will soon adopt Classic and usher in the fork.
shinohai: http://archive.is/hiUW3 <<< archived
thestringpuller: funny how it's just some random white d00d on 8btc
shinohai: kek
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493182 << this ~just might~ be one of those 'bmore real estate' animals, where, e.g., scientology gets away with it and laughs all the way to the bank, but 'peyote church' - doesn't☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 12:51 mircea_popescu: i want you to research the legal status of a registered church in the us, as well as the practicalities of registering one. this is a serious project, and i expect 100s of hours spent reading up on it. gpgram me about it.
asciilifeform: as evidence - obummer recently had the tax-exemption of a number of quite standard christian churches revoked, on account of their opposition to obummerism. beyond a little bit of bad press, nothing happened.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493176 << very cheap pet. but i sometimes get it pet treat☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 12:03 thestringpuller: asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493057 << hopefully not one of those expensive pets.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493152 << neato. do we have 'rated' command, so the thing can be in the l0gz ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 06:42 trinque: $reputation trinque
shinohai: $rated trinque
deedbot: shinohai rated trinque 2 at 2016/05/16 07:03:40 << http://wiki.deedbot.org/
asciilifeform: ah ok
shinohai: trinque must have moved deedbot to new home, seems a bit more responsive of late.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493175 << 'we just wanted!111111'☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 10:40 jurov: Why are you asking us about software?” is the line that Mr. Ng said he often hears from miners.
asciilifeform: (^ folks who 'just want' are quite vulnerable to 'helpers' who will 'help us to do what we just want..' in return for 'small favour')
mircea_popescu: shinohai soon, jam!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if that's true, we're exactly the gang for it. match made in heaven.
mircea_popescu: $up reydev
deedbot: reydev voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: which true
mircea_popescu: your comments re church.
asciilifeform: ah
asciilifeform: my observation was that mircea_popescu can indeed put 'pope' on his business card, right now!1111 - but to be ~untaxed~ pope in usgschwitz, you gotta be in favour with the current clitler
reydev: hey this seems to be kind of the continuation of the #bitcoin-assets chan right?
mircea_popescu: something like that.
reydev: kudos if one of you guys was really behind the ether thing
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let's see about that. either it's not the case, in which case we now have a us church, or it is the case, in which case we have yet another harpoon in the whale's back.
reydev: strong
reydev: guess ill be lurking some more
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: worth a shot. will be good for a boatload of lulz in either case
shinohai: Church of Subgenius is registered church, why not trilema?
mircea_popescu: aha. besides, he's just the man to do it.
reydev: by the way is the republic planning to ever have a standing army ^_^
mircea_popescu: shinohai kinda why i put this in the open, so people can come up with a good name maybe.
mircea_popescu: reydev not unless it looks like the mage girls in your favourite mmorpg.
reydev: seems like a missing piece to the puzzle tho...
reydev: anyhow, ive nothing useful to add for now, ill do some catching up in the logs etc...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the basic usgology of this, https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/churches-religious-organizations/churches-defined
mircea_popescu: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6e9x1YxtB1rsdyc4o1_500.jpg << armor ftw.
asciilifeform: there is also a bookcase-sized case law, i will leave it for danielpbarron
mircea_popescu: aha.
reydev: oh yeah, was a new WoT formed for this channel?
mircea_popescu: deedbot oversees the wot.
reydev: does this mean the stuff carried over from assets
mircea_popescu: yeah
reydev: k
shinohai: Did you read these lulz asciilifeform ? http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-terrorism-fight-needs-silicon-valley-1467239710
mircea_popescu: "the $(cause du jour) needs $(aspie 14% group sponsoring the article)"
asciilifeform: shinohai: nope and it dun want to display here
asciilifeform: 'subscribe or sign in'
danielpbarron: mircea_popescu, you want me to gpgram you now or after?
asciilifeform: shinohai: https://archive.is/jlIVZ loads
shinohai: wsj has weak paywall. Google headline, then click result for paywall free experience.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron at any point.
danielpbarron: kk
shinohai: $up reydev
deedbot: reydev voiced for 30 minutes.
mod6: Mornin'
shinohai waves at mod6
reydev: so, where are the web of trust ratings stored by the way... as in, who controls the database
thestringpuller: reydev: trinque does
reydev: ok, so one has to trust trinque in a sense
reydev: to trust the web
mircea_popescu: aaand in other "vigourous copulation with children may result in ophisthotonus through splanchnic nerve cascade" news, http://67.media.tumblr.com/6d2ca3ecd0f30aa7358d844c43ab12a5/tumblr_nj1rlaCrb91tv93bgo1_500.gif
mircea_popescu: reydev yeah. one can also verify, for instance via
mircea_popescu: $s "$rate"
a111: 75 results for "\"$rate\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22$rate%22
thestringpuller: wind 9
thestringpuller: fuck you irssi
reydev: im kind of interested in the implementation details, is it something he slapped together himself or is it an open source thing by any chance
thestringpuller: well you technically don't have to trust trinque. for the people you've rated, you can just ask them directly when you do gettrust about the rating in question. so if trinque did manipulate the ratings in someway, people using the web of trust correctly would eventually uncover "the errors"
mircea_popescu: reydev he did in fact slap it together himself ; more generally "open source" in the general, github-y, "copy/paste me but don't ever read me!" sense is not much of a republican value. which isn't to say that you can't get at the code, but it is to say you can't expect to just find it online. if you got questions, ask teh lord in question.
mircea_popescu: code is now personal!
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: "copy/paste me but don't ever read me!" << *sigh* In fact this just happened today. Developer tells me, "Hey copy this snipped into the codebase from github". I respond with, "Have you read the code?" They tell me, "Nope. But it works!" So guess who is stuck reading the code...
mircea_popescu: yeah well. the whole "open source/free software" delusion has gone long enough ; time to take it behind the bikeshed and put a bullet in its brain. leaving aside the entirely misguided communist nonsense of stallman, which is already discussed int he logs, look at what open source did for ethereum, since he mentioned it.
mircea_popescu: NOBODY fucking read it. not even the two idiots writing it. then AFTER i publish on trilema, suddenly it's sexy, they get jealous of all the exposure and find various other holes.
thestringpuller: Ironically, it'll be some Mt.Gox scandal arising from that when you find out one of the Slock.it developers was behind the heist.
mircea_popescu: not one bothering to mention that hey, i got inspired by mp, and look, the prediction he made was in fact correct : there WERE more holes. which circumstance clears any possible objection to the whole process being jealousy driven.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: don't forget the inevitable next stage, where they develop the delusion of having found ~all~ of the possible ones
mircea_popescu: well, this isn't going to go anywhere, open source is a method to bolt shut doors of stables after horses left.
mircea_popescu: take openssh, EXACT same process.
mircea_popescu: the value of open source is actually negative, it's a wealth destruction mechanism.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform obviously. because you know, "ethereum hole" is no longer google-trending. so therefore they must have.
mircea_popescu: basically they've poured 100k a head in "college education" so that thousands of them together can replicate the brain of an amphibian.
asciilifeform: i still say that source availability is a red herring here
mircea_popescu: as long as light shines on it, it moves around.
thestringpuller: the value of open source is actually negative << it didn't start off that way... the early 90's were an okay time...
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller in this sense the first inch of any stake is pleasurable.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the error of os is that it predicates upon "anyone".
asciilifeform: publication of a gnarly ball of cpp makes very little difference.
mircea_popescu: what happens when you put "anyone" in your soup is you get a soup only "anyone" would ever eat, after the fashion he eats it.
asciilifeform: it is ~impossible to ~actually understand~ it.
asciilifeform: esp. if you include the 10,001km of library entrails.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: perhaps. but i think its as simple as "adding idiots to something good ruins it". usenet was similar...
thestringpuller: AOL thought it was a good idea to open flood gates. voila usenet ruined over night.
phf: thestringpuller: that's called stackoverflow development, and it's ~the~ way development is done now
asciilifeform: all of this being said, if anyone expects me to run something on local box without publishing plausibly-readable source i can build it from, he is smoking dope.
asciilifeform: it is ~minimal~ bar.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think on the lowest level complexity actually has a positive perceived value. "check out all the complex shit i <<handle>>". much like kids in the same age bracket / cultural space in africa laud themselves with their voodoo accomplishments.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-12-21#1349108☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-12-21 05:15 asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-12-2015#1349033 << 'programmers get off on complexity the way weight lifters get off on weight'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 1) nobody of the "background and experience in management experience spawns many years" derps running ethereum built from source, or COULD build from source. i've seen enough of those lolz in eulora to have a pretty close idea ; 2. nobody's asking you to run trinque's shit on your box, so there's a difference here. but 1 and 2 aside, absofuckinglutely wtf. this isn't about tivoization of code.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform exactly so.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: well planeshift was pretty much written by people smoking dope while playing runescape...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: well yes, wasn't speaking of trinque's item, or similar remotely-operated gadgets
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller eulora build process is actually quite painless, and has ~nothing in common with trying to build planeshift, other than some dependencies.
asciilifeform: but distinguishing 'if you want me to run this on my iron, let's have the source' from 'open sores movement'
phf: thestringpuller: and requires extensive training to undo, for example i make sure all my devs have copies of the documentation for relevant code on their machines, and direct their attention to it whenever i can. you'd be surprised™ how many people don't even know where the docs for their framework etc. are
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: the original gutting process was probably painful.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in any case, while the value of "bright young fellow wants to learn boyer-moore through checking out phf's code" is there ; i'm not about to push you to publish phuctor code for some vague fetishist love of foss. which i don't have.
mircea_popescu: basically, these concerns previously glued together in o'reilly brand duct tape just came apart, and will have to be re-negotiated socially.
asciilifeform: i posted all the interesting parts anyway
mircea_popescu: discussing teh principle of the thing moar than the cases i exemplify with.
asciilifeform: well yes.
thestringpuller: phf: ah. stackoverflow development. That's a good phrase. devs tend to be lazy, so when something breaks and stackoverflow has a solution they put they put a bandaid over wounds that require stitches and eventually someone sane has to sit down and deturdify the mess.
thestringpuller: "code review" sometimes help, but people will usually bypass code reviews to get something shipped more quickly.
thestringpuller: it's just part of working with sewage I guess. :(
phf: well, linus gave us a pretty good solution. sit on pull requests, and abuse people when they submit shit
asciilifeform: phf: this works until accepting non-shit begins to resemble the process of extracting uranium from sea water
phf: to some extent it's aligned with v model, the only thing that matters is the text of patch, you read it, and decide on whether you want to sign it or not
phf: asciilifeform: it's always extracting uranium from sea water :D except through beatings you hopefully make a slightly smarter sea water that start bringing greater traces of uranium
phf: obviously can't do this in a company with HR, wreckers, etc.
asciilifeform: the beatings are really analogous to the fine adjustment knob on, e.g., microscope
mircea_popescu: phf it's aligned alright. which is how linus now has a "psychopatic sexual behaviours", as per http://qntra.net/2016/06/how-the-tor-project-pays-and-pays-cia-agents-from-their-usg-navy-coffers/#comment-62663
asciilifeform: no amount of beating will conjure into existence a sane cpu, for instance.
phf: one dev told me he gets sweaty palms when submitting a pull request, and i'm like "good. gooood"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sufficient beating will conjure anything. experientia docent.
phf: at least i no longer think that i should just send him to the farm
asciilifeform: so this is how we learn that mircea_popescu had a horse. but then went to beat it into ferrari, still working
phf: and the attitude went from "docs??" to "ha ha i guess reading documentation pays off ha ha" to "let me check the docs"
mircea_popescu: heh.
asciilifeform: https://bits-please.blogspot.com/2016/06/extracting-qualcomms-keymaster-keys.html << how to extract the usg master key in shitdroid
asciilifeform: (less of a practical interest and more of a 'this never happened!111' item.)
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493286 << the "to whom" here is the missing and essential item.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 14:31 asciilifeform: i still say that source availability is a red herring here
asciilifeform: trinque: i was speaking of the missing 'freedom' from stallman's 'freedoms list' - '... to UNDERSTAND'
asciilifeform: e.g., openssl source is 'available' to all, but understood by no one
mircea_popescu: i don't see value in this. what, there's a universal right to understand ?
asciilifeform: because the entire conceptual framework is defective.
mircea_popescu: your cat now has the right to understand differential calculus. proceed.
trinque: asciilifeform: yes
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not cat, or random luser, but ~somebody somewhere~
trinque: "free to understand" for everyone is a ticket straight to cancerous chimeric hell
mircea_popescu: what's this, meta-communism ? "not these people are equal, but some ideal people somewhere else" ?
trinque: $gettrust reydev
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
mircea_popescu: there's no freedom to understand anymore than there's a freedom to decide who fucks you.
trinque: ^ what determines whether I provide source
mircea_popescu: and yes, understanding === being fucked ; the process is called "education" because "fucking" is too harsh apparently.
asciilifeform: there is nothing educative about complexity cancer and the c machine.
mircea_popescu: hm.
asciilifeform: it is a pesilence, and has less redeeming value than the aids virus.
asciilifeform: *pestilence
mircea_popescu: i thought god taught through pestilences.
asciilifeform: sure did. the students fell asleep in class tho.
mircea_popescu: anyway. i'll concur with you saying that it's one lousy fuck, how about that.
asciilifeform: lousy fuck with rode cone studded with razor wire.
asciilifeform: *road cone
mircea_popescu: consensus building!
asciilifeform: mine's still in.
mircea_popescu: ahahaha o god.
mircea_popescu: now i have rum all over my desk wtf. why's that so funny
phf: wouldn't this sort of statements of philosophical position (i don't know a better term) still be effective among the aristoi? there's that idea that u.s. constitution was written for the privileged classes, and that you had to a) be able to write b) own a pen c) own a piece of paper to participate in voting process. or would gpl still be a bad idea if was restricted to in-wot?
asciilifeform: phf: i find myself agreeing with naggum - gpl was a weapon against microshit, and makes very little sense in any other context
mircea_popescu: https://gfycat.com/SpiritedOpenBackswimmer << never before seen footage of slock.it & ethereum development, vetting, auditing and marketing process.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: l0l!!11
mircea_popescu: phf i don't see a problem with gpl per se, but i'm not going to enforce it myself.
phf: asciilifeform: erm, yeah, i didn't mean gpl, i meant stallman's code freedoms
phf: "four essential freedoms"
mircea_popescu: phf i'm game for a full analysis of them if you care to state any. the problem broadly is that they're nonsense as-found.
trinque: phf: my point above is that, if you asked me for sauce I'd provide it for reasons entirely other than philosophy
trinque: it'd benefit me because you might improve the thing
mircea_popescu: 1. "this is the difference between" ; 2. "the fnargl is larger than a butter" ; 3. "any elements larger than the elements smaller than themselves are smaller than the larger elements of some other set."
mircea_popescu: etc in this vein.
mircea_popescu: the cheapest forinstance : it's not even proper to speak of "code" rather than text until and unless you've introduced a specific difference. which is a harder problem than it appears. "obviously" is not an answer.
phf: - The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0).
phf: - The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
phf: - The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
phf: - The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
phf: (for teh record)
trinque: there are so many false political assumptions embedded in them it's hard to pick a starting place
mircea_popescu: take 0 : "agent has agency". i'm not willing to reduce that to this, not just because http://btcbase.org/log/2015-01-30#998185 but in general, as a matter of sovereignity. if your ethereum works in this way, there's no "criminal thief" blabla.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-01-30 05:51 mircea_popescu: which is why i am not ever giving it up. the freedom to threaten is not merely my fundamental, unassailable sovereign property, but moreover essential for the construction of effectual instruments to squash the socialists and their golums.
asciilifeform: there was an entire mircea_popescu piece on subj
asciilifeform: does anyone have the link ?
mircea_popescu: which one ?
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2016/the-v-manual-genesis << found it.
mircea_popescu: ah
mircea_popescu: yeah, that's more of a practical philosophy thing, but i see what you mean.
asciilifeform: and for some reason i thought that the above was also the one where mircea_popescu had the bit re 'usg tries to claim the ability to delegate the right to use software, as the church claimed the right to delegate use of woman'
asciilifeform: but it isn't
phf: well, i'm trying to see if this could use this as a glue to tie V and stan's laws of sane computing
phf: i'm not so much interested in "freedom" aspect of it, but as a way to construct a coherent position on tmsr computing
mircea_popescu: phf i don't think stallman, for all his posturing, was muich in the philosophy department. seriously, ima have a special right to use code ? tell you what - have the inalienable freedom to use weapons, in any manner i deem fit, such as against the us president, and to use the penis, and plates of pasta, and napkin scribblings and anything else.
asciilifeform: the only 'stallman law' that remains after you strip away ALL of the usgological 'rights' claptral is no 1
asciilifeform: availability of source
asciilifeform: which falls right back into the 'sane computing' list.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform except i don't see anyone has an implicit freedom allowing him to review other people's notes.
asciilifeform: and let's once and for all distinguish 'source for phuctor' from 'source for grep'
mircea_popescu: heck, nsa is what, an open sourcing program run on public funds ?
mircea_popescu: phf can you point to a spot where it's incoherent ?
trinque: neither software nor more generally communication operates on a flat topology; stallman's trying to cram communication into that flatland
trinque: like every communist
mircea_popescu: trinque hence the text comment above
phf: trinque: that's not very interesting, you can rework gpl into wot graph quite trivially
asciilifeform: trinque: fact remains, if you think i'm gonna run a binary, ANYONE's binary, for whatever reason, yer smoking dope.
asciilifeform: i run other folks' binaries solely for purpose of reversing and exploitation.
phf: as a spec to how a node within a wot graph is going to operate by default in relation to text
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform would you accept data from certified source ?
asciilifeform: and specifically to maximally fuck the author.
trinque: phf: it's not WoT-tronic if I'm making decisions based on WoT and also this overarching religion about software
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if said data is obfuscated against me, i regard it as an attack.
mircea_popescu: besides the point. it's a random byte field you didn't make, and can't verify.
mircea_popescu: unless you go out and do the measurements yourself. by hand ?
asciilifeform: quite often i ~will~ do the measurements. by hand.
mircea_popescu: sure, i run coherence checks on all data, such as recent trilema article is testament.
asciilifeform: have found quite a few interesting bits this way.
asciilifeform: 'trust but verify'
mircea_popescu: but point remains, binary is more insidious than readily observed. you can't reduce text to "code" nor can you reduce binary to "elf".
asciilifeform: which is why i see deliberate obfuscation as an admission of guilt
mircea_popescu: you load crapolade websites all the time ; and pdf meets your attack criteria.
trinque: agreeing to a specific set of behavior within a category *forever* is slavery.
asciilifeform: it is about ~intent~
mircea_popescu: there is no intent.
asciilifeform: rather than mechanical identity.
trinque: suitable for some, but I'm not going to sign it.
asciilifeform: there sure as fuck is inferrable intent.
mircea_popescu: you mean constructive intent. hardly an intentional category.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu will run a bitcoin client with 0 published source ? in anger ?
asciilifeform: if not, why not ?
mircea_popescu: (yes, we use constructive intent all the time, such as for instance in discussions of usg - the sort of thing where they end up responsible both ways.)
phf: trinque: nah, not ~entire~ wot and not forever. but let's say i give you code under wotgpl, it means that the code has certain propagation properties within wot, and i don't have to negrate you if you abide by a certain set of pre-discussed rules
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i supppse maybe as a black box item, i dunno.
asciilifeform: what's a 'black box item' ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno, meteorite fell from sky, seems to work a certain way, gotta look what it does now.
asciilifeform: the way i see it, withholding source for a safety-critical mechanism like bitcoin client is a hostile act - unambiguously poisonous offering.
mircea_popescu has spent more time than he cares to admit with crazy incomprehensible and perhaps fragmentary item. "what is it ?" "fuck me"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i dealt with them for a living.
mircea_popescu: "it's a religious artifact!"
trinque: phf: I see software being "shared" in such a personal way that you should expect me to ask you directly whether I can give to my L1, whether I can post sauce on www, so on
trinque: and then people can check the logs; maybe we signed a contract, maybe we just talked about it
mircea_popescu: ftr that was the original, and working, shareware paradigm.
asciilifeform: trinque: keep in mind that keeping secrets has a cost
mircea_popescu: pre billy goates and his whiny self, people shared tapes.
asciilifeform: trinque: and that it is not a reasonable thing to ask others to do without a good reason
trinque: but I don't want to sign onto a talmudic interpretation of WoT-o-tronics, either generally or in this instance
phf: trinque: see even your assumptions are different from asciilifeform's
mircea_popescu: keeping secrets definitely has costs.
mircea_popescu: it's why nsa fails so badly. all their budget goes to filling the barn, ~none to guarding the barn.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: opposite, really
mircea_popescu: (also why police state is a self-limiting failure mode)
trinque: these are broad socialist orgs
trinque: I gave ben_vulpes an OS image a while back, asked that he use it internally only
trinque: and I have 0% doubt that he will do that
trinque: WoT works just fine
mircea_popescu: trinque what if say his gf splits, steals his hdds, now it's online (because she accidentally publishes it through running open webserver os). now you negrate him ?
mircea_popescu: what specific measures should he take in his relations with his gf, other than the current precautions so wife doesn't find out, to satisfy your needs ?
trinque: it's a personal matter which would be evaluated in the context of our friendship
trinque: and not generally with the jewish grandmothers
asciilifeform: this is what means 'has a cost'
mircea_popescu: thart may be, but economics is economics, so what should he do ?
asciilifeform: it isn't simply about 'he's my chum, i will lend him my pistol, and i trust that he will only shoot coke cans'
mircea_popescu: so in general, i expect the notion of "code secrecy" to be as nonsensical today as when stallman was a wee tyke getting started on other people's emacs.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, there's a difference between secrecy AS A STATE and code sharing AS A PROCESS.
trinque: as is generally *enforcing* moral behavior
mircea_popescu: wasn't my intention to discuss the former, really.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can't find the one with "buy computing" like old dudes/church wanted to "buy women". darn.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/a-new-software-licensing-paradigm
asciilifeform: ^ it
mircea_popescu: yes! ty!
mircea_popescu: the book sez : "A parallel with human sexuality is not unwarranted here. At a past time when the ownership of female humans was the principal method to control capital formation and the political process, the same sort of dead hand fictions proposed that they in fact control the usage of women, that anyone owning a woman does so only as a sublicense from their sovereign ownership of all women, and may proceed only in furthera
mircea_popescu: nce of the regulation they emitted as to how women may be used and may not be used and so on and so forth. Specifically excluded from all this - the woman in question. Particularly "criminal" at the time - using a woman in the manner she herself wishes to be used.
mircea_popescu: Times have changed, women are now worthless, but computers aren't, and these same dead hand fictions propose anew : that they own all computers, that if you own a computer it's only a sublease from them, subject to furthering their regulations and so on and so forth. Specifically excluded from all this - what the code actually says and does. Particularly "criminal" - using a computer in the manner it itself allows to be used."
asciilifeform: aha, it.
mircea_popescu: goes so neatly with "the dao".
mircea_popescu: the gall of these shitheads. how DARE THEY use fucking words other than "fdsjkhgwreifgiwiotghfegbvhwerg" to denote their vomit.
asciilifeform: see also http://btcbase.org/log/2014-10-21#885689☝︎
a111: Logged on 2014-10-21 01:30 asciilifeform: 'As progressively dumber programmers build progressively more complex systems we will see more of this kind of attempt to paper over coding mistakes with lawyers, sanctions, policies, and laws. Hollywood and the RIAA are usually the most successful at getting the government to do their bidding. Thus I predict that one day Disney will have a Web site where you can buy access to any of their movies. Because
mircea_popescu: anyway, back to phf 's thing : i frankly dun think rms/frf/etc are relevant here, not anymore than aunt molly's mole is relevant in a discussion of dermatology.
mircea_popescu: yes, indisputably a mole happens on the skin ; yes indisputably aunt molly's mole did in fact occur. nevertheless, irrelevant anecdote of no further import.
asciilifeform: i disagree - they are excellent examples - along with, e.g., mr mold - of failed autoappendectomies
asciilifeform: rms is tragicomic precisely ~because~ he won't let go of fundamentally usgistic thinking
mircea_popescu: sure, may have all sorts of other relevancies ; but not dispositive or even indicative re the theory of everything, or computing for that matter.
asciilifeform: perhaps better analogy here is the astronomical epicycle.
mircea_popescu: (when pursuing evidence, there's two kinds : indicative and dispositive. the latter is the sort that ends the inquiry ; the former is the sort that points to the way towards the latter.)
asciilifeform: 'kinetics proposes, thermodynamics disposes' (tm) (r) (uncle al)
mircea_popescu: like that.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493483 << this is true. the thief who is terribly terribly sorry he got caught and not even a bit aware he was stealing.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 16:00 asciilifeform: rms is tragicomic precisely ~because~ he won't let go of fundamentally usgistic thinking
mircea_popescu: basically, the american indian mentality.
asciilifeform: sorta like the indian in mircea_popescu' skyscraper essay
mircea_popescu: which one is that ?
mircea_popescu: jesus i'm having a bad memory day.
asciilifeform: http://trilema.com/2014/the-all-american-asshole-in-his-own-words-with-my-own-notes/#selection-3735.0-3747.1
mircea_popescu: oh right right.
asciilifeform has a good chunk of mircea_popescu's material loaded into head
phf: hmm hmm
mircea_popescu: and in other news, a rather accurate reproduction of historical copulation in hominids. http://67.media.tumblr.com/87baf88f11a9f99fd40aea78edce8729/tumblr_nyz5x4NpNl1u82s86o1_400.gif
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so do i! but it dun always fire.
mircea_popescu: phf for the record, a large part of the problem (seen in http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493382 say) is the very unreflexive manner of these derps writing.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 15:32 trinque: there are so many false political assumptions embedded in them it's hard to pick a starting place
mircea_popescu: it's like a cow mewing or like a kitten braying, you can readily see going through their productions that they... felt, something, there.
mircea_popescu: but they didn't then bother to go back, and check the terms, and check the relations, and cross-examine their production.
mircea_popescu: they write like their disciples code, which is to say, breathless, first pass, never read.
mircea_popescu: "did you as much as re-read this shit ?" "ain't nobody got time for that ??"
mircea_popescu: and in the rare cases when they re-read, they re-read like they re-stroke the penis. to recognize, not to understand.
mircea_popescu: this, needless to say, i hope, ISN'T HOW YOU FUCKING WRITE. code or anything else.
asciilifeform: https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/bitcoin-miners-hardfork-according-circulating-rumors << lel 'corexit'
asciilifeform: konseeeeensoooos!1111
thestringpuller: oh man rumors of nukes launching.
shinohai: "The above is unverified." meaning "Just a buncha r/btc derps spreading gossip"
mircea_popescu: heh.
mircea_popescu: lol, complete with "price jumps on rumours" bullshit ?
mircea_popescu: check that out, it's golden : "It is not clear how developers will now react. To not give the ecosystem choice opens Bitcoin Core developers to criticism of centralized power where developers decide even political matters of increased capacity, increasing the risk of legal liability and threatening an open war with miners which, having the full support of almost all prominent bitcoin businesses, are likely to come out much st
mircea_popescu: ronger."
mircea_popescu: ie, "miner cartel got beaten to shit, withdrew temporarily, wants to have control over bitcoin! IT WAS PROMISED!!!!".
asciilifeform: choice!1111
asciilifeform: 'i didn't shoot him in the head to kill, just gave his brains CHOICE OF WHERE TO GO!111'
mircea_popescu: everything is twisted around. "ecosystem" ? ie, what, five derps with 200 socks each ? that's the ecosystem ?
mircea_popescu: "it's not clear how bitcoin will react ?" fuck you. a) there's nothing to react to ; b) it's fucking clear how people react to nothing.
mircea_popescu: so much wanna-be ism, so militant, so organised.
mircea_popescu: so hopeless.
mircea_popescu: anyway. summer of forks proceeding without much gas, one confused byzantine general moving chaotically around the field.
mircea_popescu: mebbe next year.
asciilifeform: i thought it was supposed to coincide with the halfocalypse
mircea_popescu: all sorts of things were supposed.
asciilifeform: would be the logical time, anyway
asciilifeform: in other nyooz, zoolag has been blackholed for almost a day.
asciilifeform: (this is not an all-time record but is noteworthy)
asciilifeform: interesting method tho
asciilifeform: flooded with TBs of nonstandard tx.
ben_vulpes: gf walking with wot material is just as catastrophic as usg walking with wot material. 'walked' being only detail of note.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: 'what three know, the pig knows'
mod6: i fucking hate java btw
mod6: just putting that out there
ben_vulpes: but why mod6
ben_vulpes: it's halfway between cpp and lisp!
ben_vulpes: it even has 'lambdas' now!
mod6: lol
ben_vulpes: you should give swift a try
mircea_popescu: you know, i'm mildly surprised webcam companies haven't built the arcade scroller irl yet. you could have this special obstacle course built, have the camhos try and complete it, people could pay to watch, bet on whether they manage or not...
ben_vulpes: hysterical hodgepodge of a language.
mircea_popescu: think pussy of persia.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: that was a /lot/ of setup.
mircea_popescu: yes, that's my point :D
ben_vulpes: miserable puns are made better with excessive setup. 'better' in the sense that your audience suffers more.
mircea_popescu: the point was not the pun!
phf: ninja warrior with tits sort of thing
ben_vulpes: right
ben_vulpes: starvation wages when
mircea_popescu: well... anyone know debbie do anything, arguably christina applegate's best character ?
mircea_popescu: from some very shitty "romantic comedy"
mircea_popescu: $google "these bitches are disrespectin' an' that ain't right!"
deedbot: No results.
mircea_popescu: pfff.
mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GdHB6Ogzj0
ben_vulpes: "i heard that if people bop you on your head, gold coins come out of your butt" ok i died
ben_vulpes: in other OTHER OTHER news, i upgraded this laptop to 10.11 and now the second mini hdmi port doesn't work
ben_vulpes: what
ben_vulpes: the
ben_vulpes: shit
mircea_popescu: 10.11 whats ?
ben_vulpes: macos arcane versioning
thestringpuller: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493506 << oh god. this is my life. maybe I should ask asciilifeform how long until I succumb to radiation poisoning☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 16:12 mircea_popescu: "did you as much as re-read this shit ?" "ain't nobody got time for that ??"
phf: ben_vulpes: you knew what you were doing and you suffered the consequences
ben_vulpes: phf: oh yes
ben_vulpes: harder and more of it please
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in argentina, https://imgur.com/jz5NJIL
ben_vulpes: most expensive x11 terminal i ever seen.
ben_vulpes grumbles
ben_vulpes: assburgers lol
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: l0l what happened to 'dun post it on usgur!111'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i specifically disclaim any relation to the crap. either part of it.
mircea_popescu: "argentina has a night life", "romantic comedies", whatever the fuck, all of it belongs on imgur.
mircea_popescu: im just sad i don't have a 9gag account.
shinohai: "A William P. Tatem Elementary School teacher called police on June 16 after a third-grader said a fellow student made a racist comment about brownies" Good to know we are safe.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493559 << now install openbsd so BOTH ports can die!111☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 16:45 ben_vulpes: in other OTHER OTHER news, i upgraded this laptop to 10.11 and now the second mini hdmi port doesn't work
trinque: yes, but at least he'll have a new hoverboard with fans that never spin down
asciilifeform: and eventually - anchor!
mircea_popescu: for his battleship!
asciilifeform: bottleship.
asciilifeform: to briefly pick up yesterday's thread,
asciilifeform: if anyone wondered why fountain (e.g., luby's) algo is not widely used, answer is... mega-unsurprise... patent trollage
mircea_popescu: heh.
asciilifeform: (luby himself opened up a troll shop, it seems)
asciilifeform: so gossipd is posed to be the first live-fire open air rape of this usg directorate.
asciilifeform: *poised
mircea_popescu: mazel tov!
trinque applauds
ben_vulpes: ehehehehe wd
mircea_popescu: $google Contessa Serbelloni Mazzanti Vien dal Mare
deedbot: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contessa_Serbelloni_Mazzanti_Vien_dal_Mare << Contessa Serbelloni Mazzanti Vien dal Mare - Wikipedia | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gW2vRJDpUSE << Fantozzi, il varo della nave e la Contessa Serbelloni Mazzanti Vien ... | https://it-it.facebook.com/Contessa-Serbelloni-Mazzanti-Vien-dal-Mare-34674003339/ << Contessa Serbelloni Mazzanti Vien dal Mare
mircea_popescu: 2nd link.
mircea_popescu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5_TVKknof0 actually, not shot with potato.
trinque: ahahaha
trinque: I'm going to have to watch this
asciilifeform: l0l!!
asciilifeform: in other interesting finds, http://cs.gmu.edu/~sean/book/metaheuristics
asciilifeform: ^ actually well-written imho
mircea_popescu: trinque "la furia homicida del purpurato" is certainly memorable :D
asciilifeform: quite
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform his definition of metaheuristic is disappointing :D
mircea_popescu: and in other weird, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/b/b8/Riso_Amaro.jpg
mircea_popescu: (she's being a mondina)
asciilifeform: wat's this
mircea_popescu: "Saluteremo il signor padrone per il male che ci ha fatto che ci ha sempre maltrattato fino all'ultimo momen' Saluteremo il signor padrone con la so' risera neta pochi soldi in la cassetta e i debit da pagar..."
mircea_popescu: basically, every culture has a "women on sale" marketplace. the egyptians stick them in shops, if you got money to buy goods maybe you got money for an extra cowsy ? the italians of the pre-roosevelt era stuck them in this bizarre field job.
mircea_popescu: women only, day farm labourers, doing ~nothing in the muds of rice paddies.
mircea_popescu: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/e/e4/Mondine-Pontogliesi-e-meridionali-anni-50.jpg << realist picture (the other one's idealist, in that it's silvia mangano.
mircea_popescu: (famous italian actress)
phf: oh she played in death in venice, and weirdly enough in Dune (as the reverend mother)
asciilifeform: oh hey! yes
mircea_popescu: she was hot in the late 40s / 50s, and competent thereafter.
mircea_popescu: but smoking hot, at that.
thestringpuller: jihan wu, bout to lose a lot of money.
shinohai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/YQe
gribble: The operation succeeded.
shinohai: Also in the run moar SSL department: https://www.computest.nl/blog/startencrypt-considered-harmful-today/
asciilifeform: $up yangwao
deedbot: yangwao voiced for 30 minutes.
yangwao: o/
asciilifeform: who might you be, yangwao ?
yangwao: well. Holiday programmer who just found bad implementation in libsodium (a.k.a C implementation of NaCl)
yangwao: nothing really special, just some daily memory leaks :D
jurov: who made it? djb himself?
asciilifeform: what's a holiday programmer ?
yangwao: NaCl is ok (hope), I think, there just problems in libsodium, ehm this one https://github.com/jedisct1/libsodium
yangwao: and I might found another in JOSE, in X25519.. but looks its still in rfc draft thing
yangwao https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-jose-cfrg-curves-02
asciilifeform: $up gabriel_laddel
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
asciilifeform: how goes the lispificated gentoo gabriel_laddel ?
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: terrible atm - cannot generate a initial ram filesystem that works correctly :/
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: i suggest taking my buildroot configs as example
asciilifeform: (they produce working initramfs, with bitcoin in it)
gabriel_laddel: I looked into it previously, and it seemed that simply modifying the working initramfs I have now would be much faster - but no such luck yet.
gabriel_laddel: I can unpack the thing, inspect & modify the tree, but when repacking it and writing it to the USB == kernel panic
gabriel_laddel: Even unpacking and then repackaging it causes this - so must be that I have two versions of cpio installed or some nonsense..
asciilifeform: eventually gabriel_laddel will see the light.
gabriel_laddel: the light being that the buildroot people already handled this for me?
asciilifeform: which is: that the whole shebang must burn.
asciilifeform: initramfs, cpio, the idiot kernel, the whole thing.
asciilifeform: gcc. c.
asciilifeform: all. of. it.
gabriel_laddel: Oh yeah, I'm /very/ much on board with that.
gabriel_laddel: Hence this whole project.
asciilifeform: iirc gabriel_laddel's project was a kind of improved gentoo ?
asciilifeform: (a potentially useful thing, but quite certainly not the demolition spoken of earlier)
gabriel_laddel: gentoo with CLIM as the default graphics library, conkeror (emacs style browser) and a bunch of math goodies more or less
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493626 << get in wot eh.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 18:49 yangwao: well. Holiday programmer who just found bad implementation in libsodium (a.k.a C implementation of NaCl)
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: what are you using for a framebuffer ?
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: X
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: consider a headless x, where you have to connect from outside the box
asciilifeform: can ditch the gpu crapolade then
asciilifeform: symbolics-style.
asciilifeform: (they imho had very much the right idea re separation of churc^H^H^H^H^Hcpu and sta^H^H^Hconsole
asciilifeform: )
asciilifeform: ideally it would be over a crossover Gb ethernet cable.
phf: gabriel_laddel: have you looked at closure (the web browser), have you tried bringing it up to date, etc?
gabriel_laddel: phf: I did - it requires more work than it is worth atm
phf: gabriel_laddel: also have you looked at CLIM source code that i think allegro people have released
mircea_popescu: altogether the attempt to make a "web browser" work seems educational (read : selffuckstick) than anything. we don't even want tcp to survive, let alone html, css or js.
asciilifeform: phf: i dun recall anything franz released ever working properly with anything other than allegro
gabriel_laddel: phf: glanced at it - why?
phf: just curious if it's in a working state
gabriel_laddel: nfi - it has a bunch of C, so I skipped it
phf: i'm pretty sure that's the one with genera heritage, so as close to the mothership
phf: they probably do x11 through ffi and other such things
gabriel_laddel: I met the franz doods irl once. Cannot understand *why* they do what they do at all.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: iirc franz is 100% usg-powered now.
asciilifeform: and has been for ~decade.
phf: yeah, i'm surprised they weren't involved in, say, ITA
asciilifeform: ita used clozure iirc
phf: *was surprised when
phf: ita used sbcl for their main product
asciilifeform: ~nobody wants to pay the runtime royalties.
phf: and clozure for their experimental product, which i'm not sure if that ended up getting delivered. that was like a separate ticketing system for some canadian airline
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2015-12-01#1334724 << re the acquisition of franz☝︎
a111: Logged on 2015-12-01 19:10 ascii_field: but it is conceivable that xanalys was tired of paying for dev runtimes, which were expensive
asciilifeform: phf: ah yes
phf: i think nobody's ever tried making mcclim performant, and on top of that all this work was put into dodgy projects (like ttf and general prettification, not to mention that beach spent long time trying to make it render to html (!!!))
asciilifeform: instead of KILLING WITH FIRE the disgusting athena widgets
phf: so i was curious if that allegro thing might be better in that respect, but i suspect it's one of those 20% rewrite, 80% patching projects
asciilifeform loathes few gui proggies more than clim
phf: i'm pretty sure athena in mcclim is not even real athena, but rather a simulation, because that was gui state of the art when mcclim started
asciilifeform: it isn't even about 'pretty'
asciilifeform: it is about how if i am cooking in a kitchen, there should be NO human shit in the sink
asciilifeform: not negotiable.
gabriel_laddel: you have some sort of problem with geometry?
gabriel_laddel: or?
asciilifeform: it simply stinks.
gabriel_laddel: it just hands you geometry + some basic ways of abstracting it - what could possibly stink?
gabriel_laddel: presentations?
gabriel_laddel: streams?
asciilifeform: all of it. slow and dog-ugly.
asciilifeform: and makes my hands literally hurt (ignored mouse wheel, etc)
phf: that sounds like TK problem. like out of the box tk is dog ugly and unpleasant to use, but you can get a designer (an actual one, not like "designer") play with geometries, color and fonts to make it look quite good. i think athena would've benefited from somebody who's not an autist looking at it
asciilifeform: phf: there are fundamental problems, of playing well with platform's foundational ui
asciilifeform: for instance, on mac, anything that doesn't DIRECTLY use the native api WILL look like shit
phf: that's is an unsolvable problem.
asciilifeform: whereas on my battlestation, i use ratpoison and a wall of lcd, and anything that spawns windows will look like shit
phf: there's literally not a single system that solved this problem satisfyingly
asciilifeform: likewise certain www sites i can't even load normally because they turn to soup given my screen geometry (i use strictly tall vertical displays)
phf: even gkt/qt that came pretty close look like uncanny valley on mac
asciilifeform: phf: it is important to determine what subset of the problem is even worth solving.
gabriel_laddel: ftr, if you have funtoo / gentoo questions, angry_vincent on #funtoo is quite well versed in the idioms.
asciilifeform: gabriel_laddel: ask him how it is acceptable to break everybody's box every six months.
phf: i think that clim would benefit from removing all decorations and rolling it back to genera style thin and thick lines to at the very least get the baseline speed in place
asciilifeform: motherfuckers.
asciilifeform: phf: i could live with this.
asciilifeform: but - no mouse wheel, no go.
phf: then you make sure that default fonts and geometries make sense
phf: with a designer
asciilifeform: the other thing is that we are unfortunately stuck with something like ttf, because displays DO vary in density
phf: yeah, solve problems like mouse wheel, and general awareness of what's available in x11
asciilifeform: i have 3 different dpi in my array
asciilifeform: by factor of FOUR
phf: have 3 different fontsets, no way is ttf a solution
asciilifeform: as soon as somebody supplies these - game.
phf: not saying it's your responsibility, mcclim needs to solve that problem internally
asciilifeform: (and if they dun have cyrillic, greek, etc. glyphs - no game.)
phf: yeah, it's a hard problem unrelated to clim
phf: like i'm not convinced that cyrillic, greek etc. should be implemented on cl's character level, as opposed to something like ccl's concept of Rune
phf: "problem" is nobody's working on it
asciilifeform: if they aren't on character level, what, i can't search, sort, etc. them ??
asciilifeform: fuck that.
phf: why?
asciilifeform: phf: serious folks are avoiding the serious problems because they CORRECTLY intuit that there is not a stable foundation on which to solve them.
asciilifeform: i.e., that their blood will go to waste.
phf: search and sort and the rest take :key
phf: folks avoiding the serious problems because they are fat fucks with feelings, not because they correctly intuit :p
asciilifeform: (what means 'wasted blood' ? see http://trilema.com/2014/what-interests-me-in-a-project for what i mean here. )
asciilifeform: phf: ~serious~ folks
asciilifeform: not speaking of the vermin here.
asciilifeform: but folks ~capable~ of solving serious problemz.
phf: show me these serious folks
phf: erm, gotta go
phf brb
asciilifeform: let's put it this way - recall my attempt at 'repairing gentoo' ?
asciilifeform: or naggum's - of emacs ?
asciilifeform: to suggest that a thinking man spend his life this way, is quite like 'why dontcha close the embrasure of this pillbox with your body'
asciilifeform: there is 0 point to cleaning a barrel that is being shat into faster than anyone could possibly hope to clean it.
asciilifeform: if anything, it is an act of evil, forestalls the inevitable field of rubble and gives false hope
asciilifeform: ( see also, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-29#1492767 )☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-29 15:48 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform empty and full of rubble does wonders to keep hopes down (and hope, expectation of future, TRULY is the mind eater for usians. be hopeless, you win.) and officious intermeddlers at a distance sufficient to breed actual people with some frequency.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493716 << sadly this is like "army boot size that make sense"☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 19:23 phf: then you make sure that default fonts and geometries make sense
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493735 << nah, really, look at tmsr and it's absurd levels of fully deficit spending. re http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-29#1492874☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-29 19:44 phf: the fact that you run shell scripts on your data basically disqualifies you from participating in management. you're supposed to leverage, that shell script is $500k initial investment ruby on rails project
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 19:29 phf: folks avoiding the serious problems because they are fat fucks with feelings, not because they correctly intuit :p
mircea_popescu: fact is, when as much as a vague hint of the flavour of the possibility of a stable base is presented, people go nuts working hands to bone to build it up
mircea_popescu: i think he has it. no basis.
mircea_popescu: the knowledge that your work shall be forever useful is not even in the same ballpark with the knowledge you can now buy six more lattes.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493750 << except that not! consider the quoted bit in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=309☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 19:42 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493716 << sadly this is like "army boot size that make sense"
asciilifeform: the 'army boot' quandry comes from having to standardize the glyph as a bitmap.
asciilifeform: but in actuality a sane definition of a glyph is: program, which takes a point in a region of 2d plane and tells you if said point is darkened by said glyph.
asciilifeform: and there are not so many of these, and necessary language is a quite limited subset of henderson's lisp
asciilifeform: the beauty is that affine transforms , you get for free.
asciilifeform: forever.
asciilifeform: $s henderson
a111: 5 results for "henderson", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=henderson
asciilifeform: (NOT, before anyone asks, turing-complete, for fuxsake)
asciilifeform: just 'is this point black,' eats x, y.
asciilifeform: (and X,Y bounding box.)
asciilifeform: ~in general~ whenever you find yourself solving 'army boot' problems, know that you are operating with broken abstractions.
trinque: neat, sounds similar approach to a shader
asciilifeform: in all cases the correct solution is liquid boot that the soldiers dip feet in. whenever technologically plausible!
asciilifeform: trinque: but with NO special categories. ALL graphical objects on the machine must obey said formulation.
asciilifeform: you thereby get composability.
asciilifeform: sanely.
asciilifeform: sorta what mircea_popescu was getting at, i suspect, when he mentioned svg.
asciilifeform: (svg is a braindamaged monkey implementation of some of the above principles.)
asciilifeform: the only, afaik, currently extant one
asciilifeform: 'postscript' was a much earlier attempt.
asciilifeform: it is important to realize the full implications.
asciilifeform: per the above scheme, 'glyph' is no longer a 'special' animal. 'mona lisa' can be a glyph, and so can a mandelbrot zoom generated for one particular occasion.
asciilifeform: it is simply reduced to what it really is - simply a viewport blit.
asciilifeform: instead of some systemwide magic.
asciilifeform bbl
asciilifeform: i will give another example!
asciilifeform: the SANE way to transport audio is ALSO as a compactified lisp proggy, which takes time T and returns a rational multiplicand for the maximum DAC voltage to be present at that time !
asciilifeform: (for stereo, quadrangular, etc. recordings - you simply need 2+ of these!)
asciilifeform: so, e.g., a sinusoid, will be a very short one
asciilifeform: a hitler speech - longer
asciilifeform: .. consisting of a multitude of Ts and Vs - or fewer, if you include a decompressor of one kind or another
asciilifeform: (the correct way to include the decompressor is via v linkage. that is to say, a signed hash thereof, i.e. an index into a wotronic cryptographic global namespace.)
trinque: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=309 << for teh log readers.
asciilifeform: linked earlier
trinque: ah right
asciilifeform: the beauty is that you can impose hard limits on the evaluating environments for these 'programs', them being non-turingcomplete, and thus you can make mechanical hard pronouncements re their properties.
asciilifeform: e.g., that 'will calculate arithmetical answer in C or fewer cycles, and no side effects'
asciilifeform: at any rate, all of this is old hat to folks who read my www.
asciilifeform: but, granted, it is VERY difficult to digest for folks still viewing the ~possible~ through the shit-glasses of the ~extant~.
asciilifeform: e.g., 'fuck you i ain't running no PROGRAMS embedded in no stinkin' music file'
asciilifeform bbl.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493768 << kinda slow neh ? but yes, i'm in agreement that glyps have no business being involved in programming, it's a display matter not more.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 20:04 asciilifeform: just 'is this point black,' eats x, y.
mircea_popescu: the problem may also start where keyboards have to have shit printed on them through a legacy process.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493777 << yes.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 20:08 asciilifeform: (svg is a braindamaged monkey implementation of some of the above principles.)
mircea_popescu: quite exactly.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493795 << aha word.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 20:29 asciilifeform: the beauty is that you can impose hard limits on the evaluating environments for these 'programs', them being non-turingcomplete, and thus you can make mechanical hard pronouncements re their properties.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493799 <<->> http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493407 :D☝︎☝︎
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 15:38 asciilifeform: trinque: fact remains, if you think i'm gonna run a binary, ANYONE's binary, for whatever reason, yer smoking dope.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 20:31 asciilifeform: e.g., 'fuck you i ain't running no PROGRAMS embedded in no stinkin' music file'
phf: funny how a lot of these ideas have been explored, grokked and then promptly not accepted
phf: for example NeWS was gui system that did exactly what asciilifeform described, using what they called display postscript
phf: http://www.art.net/studios/Hackers/Hopkins/Don/lang/NeWS.html
phf: or common lisp music which is a subset of common lisp to describe a wavelength generation/transformation/composition (i'm pretty sure it was used to do first computer FM synthesis)
phf: (actually news and display postscript are not the same technology, but same idea)
phf: http://www.art.net/studios/Hackers/Hopkins/Don/psiber/11.gif
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493744 << i think of these projects in the same terms i think of "knowledge" in general. same way as there's no abstract scientific knowledge that's somehow "accessible" to "society", there isn't universal good value to naggum's emacs, but there would've been value in naggum's ~to me~ as a kind of abstract node in what i'm hoping is a graph of sane people. same way as "scientific knowledge" is only a kind of comm☝︎
phf: unication happening across long periods of time and space among certain kind of individuals
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 19:32 asciilifeform: or naggum's - of emacs ?
phf: for example naggum specced out "LOCAL-TIME" concept in his "long painful history of time" paper, and it's an excellent solution. per your argument it's true that the actual communal implementation of local-time is a piece of shit. (if you've never read it, it's really horrible)
adlai: CLM (DLed from https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/clm/ ) does not compile due to package definitions in wrong files... the joys of bitrot
adlai: phf: have you had problems with local-time's functioning?
phf: adlai: yes
adlai has treated it as a black box of Just Fucking Works... what went wrong for you?
phf: well, there was a bunch of things, so i'm just going to hand waive it, but one major issue is that it doesn't actually have a date, time, datetime separation
phf: so 2016-01-01 will do very very wrong things depending on specific timezone combinations
adlai: yeah, the abstraction would better be called "timestamp"
phf: correct, but if it's timestamp then reader ~must~ fail on missing times, timezones
adlai: but then it wouldn't be unix enough!
phf: :D
adlai: the unixification of common lisp is glorious to behold, like galaxies colliding
phf: i got exposed to library as part of my attempt to revive cl-ledger, that actually doesn't need time component at all. as an accounting tool it almost entirely deals with dates (except in its timetracking functionality)
phf: and of course, every single assumption ledger makes breaks, when you twiddle you machine's system timezone
phf: lugm-time makes it very explicit that this is a wrong behavior
trinque: that's heinous.
trinque: makes me feel better that so far I've stuck with int representations of time in my CL programs
trinque: get-universal-time and whatever the other one is, decode?
phf: decode-universal-time, get-decoded-time
adlai: local-time:timestamp-to-unix and its vice-versa give you this. i guess my use of local-time has been primarily to display timestamps readably
adlai: and parse
adlai: the number of bitcoin exchanges that give human-readable timestamps in API calls (because all API calls are done by hand and read by eye, right!?) is too damn high
phf: well, problems start manifesting when you start doing math on your times, and asking for things like 2 years and 1 hour later, etc.
phf: 2 years from 2016-01-01 is totally different from 2016-01-01T00:00:00Z
phf: amusingly where the underlying technology is super solid (because specced out by naggum) interface implementation is piece of shit, because written by kommmunitee
phf: amusingly enough java, via joda-time, is one of the few solutions that get it right
trinque: enterprise bureaucracy systems must have proper scheduling
phf: asciilifeform: but to get back to my point, the fact that local-time as implemented by kommmuniti is shit doesn't have to affect ~me~. i know what the right way (or a better one) of doing things is, but if naggum didn't write his paper, i wouldn't. i thought that's kind of the WoT approach