a111: Logged on 2016-06-29 22:54 pete_dushenski: $rate funkenstein_ 2 trb privkey patch guy
trinque: gave psql access to phf to that end
trinque: afaik. phf, if not, lemme know and I'll whip something up
trinque: also btw, chars mangled to " in wot are fixed.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-29 01:08 phf: "You can buy one or more Urbit stars for $256 - or, TODAY ONLY, only $205."
trinque: anyone happen to know the message rate limit on freenode?
mod6: quick search doesn't show anything definitive. but you could always check in #freenode, trinque
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 00:15 asciilifeform:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-29#1492935 << '40s was the time when agrarian shitholes had the choice - the ones that had a choice - of conversion to fascist industrial power, or to die.
BingoBoingo: Adventures in Pipe wrench ownership milestone #3 Disassembling everything to the wall, and debating whether or not to wake up reciprocating saw to open wall.
shinohai: Did your vinegar bath help fix the yardsale wrench btw?
BingoBoingo: Wrench's bath has been interupted periodically though to work.
shinohai: I used to do the homebrew electrolysis thing to remove rust.
BingoBoingo: Seriously though the power of this thing. With the occasional squirt of PB Blaster no fitting has failed to yeild to patience and pipe wrench.
BingoBoingo: Wrench also has wood on handle wrapped in electrical tape
shinohai: I rather like older tools, don't mod the maintenance. Most tools sold in stores locally are garbage.
BingoBoingo: More seriously though fuck whoever though galvanized iron ought to be used for drains
BingoBoingo: What would have been wrong with 1950's folk using nylon drain pipe while they waited for PVC to arrive?
BingoBoingo: Oh, that's where danielpbarron was. He rediscovered girls.
gribble: Current Blocks: 418595 | Current Difficulty: 2.0945315859538098E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 419327 | Next Difficulty In: 732 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 4 days, 23 hours, 30 minutes, and 36 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
pete_dushenski: though it's no mega-mystery that funkestein_ has always been an odd duck
pete_dushenski: reading his blog for 2 seconds will tell you that much
pete_dushenski: i'm also assuming that 'full bore kako' and 'kakotronic' are interchangeable here
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 00:15 asciilifeform:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-29#1492935 << '40s was the time when agrarian shitholes had the choice - the ones that had a choice - of conversion to fascist industrial power, or to die.
pete_dushenski: $v 97C4062F0E8DD46BAB1F32DD8EC73EEEF793458BA8FFE03DC91A46828490AA4B
deedbot: pete_dushenski unrated kakobrekla.
pete_dushenski: also, it would appear that musk's scammy usg-funded acquisition of one of his failed enterprises by his other failing enterprise missed the logs.
pete_dushenski: tesla laid out plans to 'acquire' solarcity for $2.86 bn last week
BingoBoingo: Eh, he's just trying to rockefeller the sun
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski didn't work for italy because, in spite of rural shithole, nevertheless delusions of grandeur, and unwarranted impressions that "we've already smoked this joint".
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: spanish empire style ? i'm ignorant of this style
mircea_popescu: it's a style where you import gold by the galleon only to see rents go up and not much else.
mircea_popescu: ("if money's a curse, let god strike me down with it! and may i never recover.")
pete_dushenski: seriously wtf is wrong with broadway atm. 'hamilton' ? really ??!
BingoBoingo: Money's perfectly harmless until it gets spent
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 02:57 pete_dushenski:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1492971 << for all the times i've heard the exclusively alfian term of art 'kakotronic', it's never quite registered. care to explain like i'm 5 ?
pete_dushenski: 'hamilton', for those blissfully unaware, is this 'hip' new play written by some mexican queer about founding father alexander hamilton's rise to glory complete with more break dancing and rapped lyrics than you can throw a harlem globetrotter at
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: right. i guess that pankakke and tat fit in similarly.
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: pet has seen ? tix are running $1k per last i heard
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: does pet not have income for such frivolities ?
pete_dushenski: though dog, like child, can 'perform' in 'shows' for prizes
mircea_popescu: is it actually efficient re memory usage ? anyone know specifically ?
☟︎ pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: so you saw the play with her ? 'sent' sounded like a solo recon mission
trinque: gave it the old college try?
pete_dushenski: ie. where i first took classes in english and was marked wrong on a geography test where i answered 'ouest'
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 03:40 mircea_popescu: is it actually efficient re memory usage ? anyone know specifically ?
gribble: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 4244.28, vol: 37972.96650000 | Volume-weighted last average: 4244.28
phf: "A 10-year-old Girl Applied to the Paris Summer Innovation Fellowship (facebook.com)"
phf: “The streets of Paris are sad. I want to build a robot that will make them happy again. I’ve already starting learning how to code on Thymio robots, but I have trouble making it work. I want to join the program so the mentors can help me.”
phf: "Welcome aboard our spaceship, Eva. We’re very much looking forward to meeting you in person.
phf: All the best from Paris,
phf: Founding Partner, Five by Five"
phf: "A School Where the Students Hire Their Teachers (wbez.org)"
phf: "Urbit Is Building a 'Virtual Galaxy' for Bitcoin Nodes (coindesk.com)"
phf: "Are You an Awesome Product Designer? LeadGenius (YC S11) Is Hiring (lever.co)"
phf: i have a bunch of sites blocked on my router, google's and facebook's ip ranges, reddit, hackernews, but sometimes i load them up in hidemyass to see how things are on the other side of the world
pete_dushenski: this, actually, is a useful heuristic : alf sees snore --> pete sees lulz
phf: yeah, it's pretty funny for couple of minutes
phf: a conversation about racism on lobste.rs "urwid crowdsale" thread is also quite piquant
phf: "As a not-completely-cynical participant in a democratic society and a half-assed amateur philosopher, I’m about as turned off by Yarvin as I could be."
phf: "We built voice modulation to mask gender in technical interviews. Here’s what happened. Posted by user Aline Lerner"
pete_dushenski feels himself becoming ryan gosling's character in 'the believer'
phf: i'll spoil it for you, ""Contrary to what we expected, masking gender had no effect on interview performance"
trinque: IRC's rate-limiting is a bummer.
trinque: I was going to add commands to dump inward and outward reputation for a given nick, but neh
trinque: would take minutes for some of us
trinque: I put the blame on us ending up with the idiotic web, REST APIs, and etc squarely on IRC having been designed by monkeys
trinque: help us alfie-wan kenobi; you're our only hope
trinque: yeah that's what I'm going to do instead
phf: you kind of need to write a graph walker, and since you're doing it in sql, i don't even know how to make it not suck
trinque: for gettrust I just join the same table twice
trinque: can actually do it recursively using pgsql magic if I needed
phf: i don't want to know! it's much nicer when the whole thing's in memory :>
trinque: lol, I didn't say this was pretty sausage
phf: i have a backlog of making bot pull from backup logger in case of disconnect, which is the last bit before auto-reconnecting-bot
phf: and then i want to make search case-insensitive, which turned out to be iffy with boyermoore
phf: and THEN i'm going to do wot
phf: so if anyone wants to swoop in and implement it
trinque: two new commands that dump sexp data:
trinque: phf: how do I get prin1 (or something more sensible) to barf an sexp with a euro symbol in it?
trinque: it's bitching about that. after which I will have a $wot command that pastes the whole thing
trinque: ah derp it's the paste uploader barfing.
trinque: ben_vulpes: ey is there a max size of a paste?
trinque: both use the same "throw this here paste at mr ben_vulpes" function
ben_vulpes: intrigued to see what the response looks like.
trinque: k lemme copy teh data down to dev box
trinque: ben_vulpes: 413 Request Entity Too Large
trinque: prolly a knob on your nginx or w/e
trinque: then perhaps also whatever thinger is running your proggy
trinque: that will be enough for a bit
jurov: Mr. Wu and the other mining pool operators in China have often seemed somewhat surprised, and even unhappy, that their investments have given them decision-making power within the Bitcoin network. “Miners are the hardware guys.
jurov: Why are you asking us about software?” is the line that Mr. Ng said he often hears from miners.
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 03:32 asciilifeform: pet has 0 income
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron hey listen, your latest posts inspired me, an' now i have a project for you.
mircea_popescu: i want you to research the legal status of a registered church in the us, as well as the practicalities of registering one. this is a serious project, and i expect 100s of hours spent reading up on it. gpgram me about it.
☟︎ shinohai: ty BingoBoingo send donations for the designated shitting street to 1preetzHWEUfmGuW5ast5hMTJNYU1bmGo
BingoBoingo: lol is that an actual address you have key 4?
shinohai: lol yeah I actually was going to put it up on bitfunder but naturally got rejected.
shinohai: I am seriously researching buying some cheap field in India for this purpose
shinohai: For the purpose of getting a designated shitting street named after Preeeeeet.
shinohai: BingoBoingo: s/handing/handed/g ?
shinohai: In other news, r/btc is celebrating this morning imagining that angry miners will soon adopt Classic and usher in the fork.
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 12:51 mircea_popescu: i want you to research the legal status of a registered church in the us, as well as the practicalities of registering one. this is a serious project, and i expect 100s of hours spent reading up on it. gpgram me about it.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 06:42 trinque: $reputation trinque
shinohai: trinque must have moved deedbot to new home, seems a bit more responsive of late.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 10:40 jurov: Why are you asking us about software?” is the line that Mr. Ng said he often hears from miners.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform if that's true, we're exactly the gang for it. match made in heaven.
deedbot: reydev voiced for 30 minutes.
reydev: hey this seems to be kind of the continuation of the #bitcoin-assets chan right?
reydev: kudos if one of you guys was really behind the ether thing
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform let's see about that. either it's not the case, in which case we now have a us church, or it is the case, in which case we have yet another harpoon in the whale's back.
reydev: guess ill be lurking some more
shinohai: Church of Subgenius is registered church, why not trilema?
reydev: by the way is the republic planning to ever have a standing army ^_^
mircea_popescu: shinohai kinda why i put this in the open, so people can come up with a good name maybe.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: reydev not unless it looks like the mage girls in your favourite mmorpg.
reydev: seems like a missing piece to the puzzle tho...
reydev: anyhow, ive nothing useful to add for now, ill do some catching up in the logs etc...
reydev: oh yeah, was a new WoT formed for this channel?
reydev: does this mean the stuff carried over from assets
mircea_popescu: "the $(cause du jour) needs $(aspie 14% group sponsoring the article)"
danielpbarron: mircea_popescu, you want me to gpgram you now or after?
shinohai: wsj has weak paywall. Google headline, then click result for paywall free experience.
deedbot: reydev voiced for 30 minutes.
reydev: so, where are the web of trust ratings stored by the way... as in, who controls the database
reydev: ok, so one has to trust trinque in a sense
reydev: im kind of interested in the implementation details, is it something he slapped together himself or is it an open source thing by any chance
thestringpuller: well you technically don't have to trust trinque. for the people you've rated, you can just ask them directly when you do gettrust about the rating in question. so if trinque did manipulate the ratings in someway, people using the web of trust correctly would eventually uncover "the errors"
mircea_popescu: reydev he did in fact slap it together himself ; more generally "open source" in the general, github-y, "copy/paste me but don't ever read me!" sense is not much of a republican value. which isn't to say that you can't get at the code, but it is to say you can't expect to just find it online. if you got questions, ask teh lord in question.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: "copy/paste me but don't ever read me!" << *sigh* In fact this just happened today. Developer tells me, "Hey copy this snipped into the codebase from github". I respond with, "Have you read the code?" They tell me, "Nope. But it works!" So guess who is stuck reading the code...
mircea_popescu: yeah well. the whole "open source/free software" delusion has gone long enough ; time to take it behind the bikeshed and put a bullet in its brain. leaving aside the entirely misguided communist nonsense of stallman, which is already discussed int he logs, look at what open source did for ethereum, since he mentioned it.
mircea_popescu: NOBODY fucking read it. not even the two idiots writing it. then AFTER i publish on trilema, suddenly it's sexy, they get jealous of all the exposure and find various other holes.
thestringpuller: Ironically, it'll be some Mt.Gox scandal arising from that when you find out one of the Slock.it developers was behind the heist.
mircea_popescu: not one bothering to mention that hey, i got inspired by mp, and look, the prediction he made was in fact correct : there WERE more holes. which circumstance clears any possible objection to the whole process being jealousy driven.
mircea_popescu: well, this isn't going to go anywhere, open source is a method to bolt shut doors of stables after horses left.
mircea_popescu: the value of open source is actually negative, it's a wealth destruction mechanism.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform obviously. because you know, "ethereum hole" is no longer google-trending. so therefore they must have.
mircea_popescu: basically they've poured 100k a head in "college education" so that thousands of them together can replicate the brain of an amphibian.
thestringpuller: the value of open source is actually negative << it didn't start off that way... the early 90's were an okay time...
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller in this sense the first inch of any stake is pleasurable.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the error of os is that it predicates upon "anyone".
mircea_popescu: what happens when you put "anyone" in your soup is you get a soup only "anyone" would ever eat, after the fashion he eats it.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: perhaps. but i think its as simple as "adding idiots to something good ruins it". usenet was similar...
thestringpuller: AOL thought it was a good idea to open flood gates. voila usenet ruined over night.
phf: thestringpuller: that's called stackoverflow development, and it's ~the~ way development is done now
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i think on the lowest level complexity actually has a positive perceived value. "check out all the complex shit i <<handle>>". much like kids in the same age bracket / cultural space in africa laud themselves with their voodoo accomplishments.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform 1) nobody of the "background and experience in management experience spawns many years" derps running ethereum built from source, or COULD build from source. i've seen enough of those lolz in eulora to have a pretty close idea ; 2. nobody's asking you to run trinque's shit on your box, so there's a difference here. but 1 and 2 aside, absofuckinglutely wtf. this isn't about tivoization of code.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: well planeshift was pretty much written by people smoking dope while playing runescape...
mircea_popescu: thestringpuller eulora build process is actually quite painless, and has ~nothing in common with trying to build planeshift, other than some dependencies.
phf: thestringpuller: and requires extensive training to undo, for example i make sure all my devs have copies of the documentation for relevant code on their machines, and direct their attention to it whenever i can. you'd be surprised™ how many people don't even know where the docs for their framework etc. are
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: the original gutting process was probably painful.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in any case, while the value of "bright young fellow wants to learn boyer-moore through checking out phf's code" is there ; i'm not about to push you to publish phuctor code for some vague fetishist love of foss. which i don't have.
mircea_popescu: basically, these concerns previously glued together in o'reilly brand duct tape just came apart, and will have to be re-negotiated socially.
mircea_popescu: discussing teh principle of the thing moar than the cases i exemplify with.
thestringpuller: phf: ah. stackoverflow development. That's a good phrase. devs tend to be lazy, so when something breaks and stackoverflow has a solution they put they put a bandaid over wounds that require stitches and eventually someone sane has to sit down and deturdify the mess.
thestringpuller: "code review" sometimes help, but people will usually bypass code reviews to get something shipped more quickly.
phf: well, linus gave us a pretty good solution. sit on pull requests, and abuse people when they submit shit
phf: to some extent it's aligned with v model, the only thing that matters is the text of patch, you read it, and decide on whether you want to sign it or not
phf: asciilifeform: it's always extracting uranium from sea water :D except through beatings you hopefully make a slightly smarter sea water that start bringing greater traces of uranium
phf: obviously can't do this in a company with HR, wreckers, etc.
phf: one dev told me he gets sweaty palms when submitting a pull request, and i'm like "good. gooood"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform sufficient beating will conjure anything. experientia docent.
phf: at least i no longer think that i should just send him to the farm
phf: and the attitude went from "docs??" to "ha ha i guess reading documentation pays off ha ha" to "let me check the docs"
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 14:31 asciilifeform: i still say that source availability is a red herring here
mircea_popescu: i don't see value in this. what, there's a universal right to understand ?
mircea_popescu: your cat now has the right to understand differential calculus. proceed.
trinque: "free to understand" for everyone is a ticket straight to cancerous chimeric hell
mircea_popescu: what's this, meta-communism ? "not these people are equal, but some ideal people somewhere else" ?
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
mircea_popescu: there's no freedom to understand anymore than there's a freedom to decide who fucks you.
trinque: ^ what determines whether I provide source
mircea_popescu: and yes, understanding === being fucked ; the process is called "education" because "fucking" is too harsh apparently.
mircea_popescu: anyway. i'll concur with you saying that it's one lousy fuck, how about that.
mircea_popescu: now i have rum all over my desk wtf. why's that so funny
phf: wouldn't this sort of statements of philosophical position (i don't know a better term) still be effective among the aristoi? there's that idea that u.s. constitution was written for the privileged classes, and that you had to a) be able to write b) own a pen c) own a piece of paper to participate in voting process. or would gpl still be a bad idea if was restricted to in-wot?
mircea_popescu: phf i don't see a problem with gpl per se, but i'm not going to enforce it myself.
phf: asciilifeform: erm, yeah, i didn't mean gpl, i meant stallman's code freedoms
phf: "four essential freedoms"
mircea_popescu: phf i'm game for a full analysis of them if you care to state any. the problem broadly is that they're nonsense as-found.
trinque: phf: my point above is that, if you asked me for sauce I'd provide it for reasons entirely other than philosophy
trinque: it'd benefit me because you might improve the thing
mircea_popescu: 1. "this is the difference between" ; 2. "the fnargl is larger than a butter" ; 3. "any elements larger than the elements smaller than themselves are smaller than the larger elements of some other set."
mircea_popescu: the cheapest forinstance : it's not even proper to speak of "code" rather than text until and unless you've introduced a specific difference. which is a harder problem than it appears. "obviously" is not an answer.
phf: - The freedom to run the program as you wish, for any purpose (freedom 0).
phf: - The freedom to study how the program works, and change it so it does your computing as you wish (freedom 1). Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
phf: - The freedom to redistribute copies so you can help your neighbor (freedom 2).
phf: - The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this.
trinque: there are so many false political assumptions embedded in them it's hard to pick a starting place
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2015-01-30 05:51 mircea_popescu: which is why i am not ever giving it up. the freedom to threaten is not merely my fundamental, unassailable sovereign property, but moreover essential for the construction of effectual instruments to squash the socialists and their golums.
mircea_popescu: yeah, that's more of a practical philosophy thing, but i see what you mean.
phf: well, i'm trying to see if this could use this as a glue to tie V and stan's laws of sane computing
phf: i'm not so much interested in "freedom" aspect of it, but as a way to construct a coherent position on tmsr computing
mircea_popescu: phf i don't think stallman, for all his posturing, was muich in the philosophy department. seriously, ima have a special right to use code ? tell you what - have the inalienable freedom to use weapons, in any manner i deem fit, such as against the us president, and to use the penis, and plates of pasta, and napkin scribblings and anything else.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform except i don't see anyone has an implicit freedom allowing him to review other people's notes.
mircea_popescu: heck, nsa is what, an open sourcing program run on public funds ?
trinque: neither software nor more generally communication operates on a flat topology; stallman's trying to cram communication into that flatland
phf: trinque: that's not very interesting, you can rework gpl into wot graph quite trivially
phf: as a spec to how a node within a wot graph is going to operate by default in relation to text
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform would you accept data from certified source ?
trinque: phf: it's not WoT-tronic if I'm making decisions based on WoT and also this overarching religion about software
mircea_popescu: besides the point. it's a random byte field you didn't make, and can't verify.
mircea_popescu: unless you go out and do the measurements yourself. by hand ?
mircea_popescu: sure, i run coherence checks on all data, such as recent trilema article is testament.
mircea_popescu: but point remains, binary is more insidious than readily observed. you can't reduce text to "code" nor can you reduce binary to "elf".
mircea_popescu: you load crapolade websites all the time ; and pdf meets your attack criteria.
trinque: agreeing to a specific set of behavior within a category *forever* is slavery.
trinque: suitable for some, but I'm not going to sign it.
mircea_popescu: you mean constructive intent. hardly an intentional category.
mircea_popescu: (yes, we use constructive intent all the time, such as for instance in discussions of usg - the sort of thing where they end up responsible both ways.)
phf: trinque: nah, not ~entire~ wot and not forever. but let's say i give you code under wotgpl, it means that the code has certain propagation properties within wot, and i don't have to negrate you if you abide by a certain set of pre-discussed rules
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i supppse maybe as a black box item, i dunno.
mircea_popescu: i dunno, meteorite fell from sky, seems to work a certain way, gotta look what it does now.
mircea_popescu has spent more time than he cares to admit with crazy incomprehensible and perhaps fragmentary item. "what is it ?" "fuck me"
trinque: phf: I see software being "shared" in such a personal way that you should expect me to ask you directly whether I can give to my L1, whether I can post sauce on www, so on
trinque: and then people can check the logs; maybe we signed a contract, maybe we just talked about it
mircea_popescu: ftr that was the original, and working, shareware paradigm.
mircea_popescu: pre billy goates and his whiny self, people shared tapes.
trinque: but I don't want to sign onto a talmudic interpretation of WoT-o-tronics, either generally or in this instance
phf: trinque: see even your assumptions are different from asciilifeform's
mircea_popescu: it's why nsa fails so badly. all their budget goes to filling the barn, ~none to guarding the barn.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: (also why police state is a self-limiting failure mode)
trinque: these are broad socialist orgs
trinque: I gave ben_vulpes an OS image a while back, asked that he use it internally only
trinque: and I have 0% doubt that he will do that
mircea_popescu: trinque what if say his gf splits, steals his hdds, now it's online (because she accidentally publishes it through running open webserver os). now you negrate him ?
mircea_popescu: what specific measures should he take in his relations with his gf, other than the current precautions so wife doesn't find out, to satisfy your needs ?
trinque: it's a personal matter which would be evaluated in the context of our friendship
trinque: and not generally with the jewish grandmothers
mircea_popescu: thart may be, but economics is economics, so what should he do ?
mircea_popescu: so in general, i expect the notion of "code secrecy" to be as nonsensical today as when stallman was a wee tyke getting started on other people's emacs.
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, there's a difference between secrecy AS A STATE and code sharing AS A PROCESS.
trinque: as is generally *enforcing* moral behavior
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i can't find the one with "buy computing" like old dudes/church wanted to "buy women". darn.
mircea_popescu: the book sez : "A parallel with human sexuality is not unwarranted here. At a past time when the ownership of female humans was the principal method to control capital formation and the political process, the same sort of dead hand fictions proposed that they in fact control the usage of women, that anyone owning a woman does so only as a sublicense from their sovereign ownership of all women, and may proceed only in furthera
mircea_popescu: nce of the regulation they emitted as to how women may be used and may not be used and so on and so forth. Specifically excluded from all this - the woman in question. Particularly "criminal" at the time - using a woman in the manner she herself wishes to be used.
mircea_popescu: Times have changed, women are now worthless, but computers aren't, and these same dead hand fictions propose anew : that they own all computers, that if you own a computer it's only a sublease from them, subject to furthering their regulations and so on and so forth. Specifically excluded from all this - what the code actually says and does. Particularly "criminal" - using a computer in the manner it itself allows to be used."
mircea_popescu: the gall of these shitheads. how DARE THEY use fucking words other than "fdsjkhgwreifgiwiotghfegbvhwerg" to denote their vomit.
a111: Logged on 2014-10-21 01:30 asciilifeform: 'As progressively dumber programmers build progressively more complex systems we will see more of this kind of attempt to paper over coding mistakes with lawyers, sanctions, policies, and laws. Hollywood and the RIAA are usually the most successful at getting the government to do their bidding. Thus I predict that one day Disney will have a Web site where you can buy access to any of their movies. Because
mircea_popescu: anyway, back to phf 's thing : i frankly dun think rms/frf/etc are relevant here, not anymore than aunt molly's mole is relevant in a discussion of dermatology.
mircea_popescu: yes, indisputably a mole happens on the skin ; yes indisputably aunt molly's mole did in fact occur. nevertheless, irrelevant anecdote of no further import.
mircea_popescu: sure, may have all sorts of other relevancies ; but not dispositive or even indicative re the theory of everything, or computing for that matter.
mircea_popescu: (when pursuing evidence, there's two kinds : indicative and dispositive. the latter is the sort that ends the inquiry ; the former is the sort that points to the way towards the latter.)
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 16:00 asciilifeform: rms is tragicomic precisely ~because~ he won't let go of fundamentally usgistic thinking
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 15:32 trinque: there are so many false political assumptions embedded in them it's hard to pick a starting place
mircea_popescu: it's like a cow mewing or like a kitten braying, you can readily see going through their productions that they... felt, something, there.
mircea_popescu: but they didn't then bother to go back, and check the terms, and check the relations, and cross-examine their production.
mircea_popescu: they write like their disciples code, which is to say, breathless, first pass, never read.
mircea_popescu: "did you as much as re-read this shit ?" "ain't nobody got time for that ??"
☟︎ mircea_popescu: and in the rare cases when they re-read, they re-read like they re-stroke the penis. to recognize, not to understand.
mircea_popescu: this, needless to say, i hope, ISN'T HOW YOU FUCKING WRITE. code or anything else.
shinohai: "The above is unverified." meaning "Just a buncha r/btc derps spreading gossip"
mircea_popescu: lol, complete with "price jumps on rumours" bullshit ?
mircea_popescu: check that out, it's golden : "It is not clear how developers will now react. To not give the ecosystem choice opens Bitcoin Core developers to criticism of centralized power where developers decide even political matters of increased capacity, increasing the risk of legal liability and threatening an open war with miners which, having the full support of almost all prominent bitcoin businesses, are likely to come out much st
mircea_popescu: ie, "miner cartel got beaten to shit, withdrew temporarily, wants to have control over bitcoin! IT WAS PROMISED!!!!".
mircea_popescu: everything is twisted around. "ecosystem" ? ie, what, five derps with 200 socks each ? that's the ecosystem ?
mircea_popescu: "it's not clear how bitcoin will react ?" fuck you. a) there's nothing to react to ; b) it's fucking clear how people react to nothing.
mircea_popescu: anyway. summer of forks proceeding without much gas, one confused byzantine general moving chaotically around the field.
ben_vulpes: gf walking with wot material is just as catastrophic as usg walking with wot material. 'walked' being only detail of note.
mod6: i fucking hate java btw
mod6: just putting that out there
mircea_popescu: you know, i'm mildly surprised webcam companies haven't built the arcade scroller irl yet. you could have this special obstacle course built, have the camhos try and complete it, people could pay to watch, bet on whether they manage or not...
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: that was a /lot/ of setup.
ben_vulpes: miserable puns are made better with excessive setup. 'better' in the sense that your audience suffers more.
phf: ninja warrior with tits sort of thing
mircea_popescu: well... anyone know debbie do anything, arguably christina applegate's best character ?
mircea_popescu: $google "these bitches are disrespectin' an' that ain't right!"
ben_vulpes: "i heard that if people bop you on your head, gold coins come out of your butt" ok i died
ben_vulpes: in other OTHER OTHER news, i upgraded this laptop to 10.11 and now the second mini hdmi port doesn't work
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 16:12 mircea_popescu: "did you as much as re-read this shit ?" "ain't nobody got time for that ??"
phf: ben_vulpes: you knew what you were doing and you suffered the consequences
ben_vulpes: most expensive x11 terminal i ever seen.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i specifically disclaim any relation to the crap. either part of it.
mircea_popescu: "argentina has a night life", "romantic comedies", whatever the fuck, all of it belongs on imgur.
shinohai: "A William P. Tatem Elementary School teacher called police on June 16 after a third-grader said a fellow student made a racist comment about brownies" Good to know we are safe.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 16:45 ben_vulpes: in other OTHER OTHER news, i upgraded this laptop to 10.11 and now the second mini hdmi port doesn't work
trinque: yes, but at least he'll have a new hoverboard with fans that never spin down
trinque: I'm going to have to watch this
mircea_popescu: trinque "la furia homicida del purpurato" is certainly memorable :D
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform his definition of metaheuristic is disappointing :D
mircea_popescu: "Saluteremo il signor padrone per il male che ci ha fatto che ci ha sempre maltrattato fino all'ultimo momen' Saluteremo il signor padrone con la so' risera neta pochi soldi in la cassetta e i debit da pagar..."
mircea_popescu: basically, every culture has a "women on sale" marketplace. the egyptians stick them in shops, if you got money to buy goods maybe you got money for an extra cowsy ? the italians of the pre-roosevelt era stuck them in this bizarre field job.
mircea_popescu: women only, day farm labourers, doing ~nothing in the muds of rice paddies.
phf: oh she played in death in venice, and weirdly enough in Dune (as the reverend mother)
mircea_popescu: she was hot in the late 40s / 50s, and competent thereafter.
deedbot: yangwao voiced for 30 minutes.
yangwao: well. Holiday programmer who just found bad implementation in libsodium (a.k.a C implementation of NaCl)
☟︎ yangwao: nothing really special, just some daily memory leaks :D
jurov: who made it? djb himself?
yangwao: and I might found another in JOSE, in X25519.. but looks its still in rfc draft thing
deedbot: gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: terrible atm - cannot generate a initial ram filesystem that works correctly :/
gabriel_laddel: I looked into it previously, and it seemed that simply modifying the working initramfs I have now would be much faster - but no such luck yet.
gabriel_laddel: I can unpack the thing, inspect & modify the tree, but when repacking it and writing it to the USB == kernel panic
gabriel_laddel: Even unpacking and then repackaging it causes this - so must be that I have two versions of cpio installed or some nonsense..
gabriel_laddel: the light being that the buildroot people already handled this for me?
gabriel_laddel: gentoo with CLIM as the default graphics library, conkeror (emacs style browser) and a bunch of math goodies more or less
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 18:49 yangwao: well. Holiday programmer who just found bad implementation in libsodium (a.k.a C implementation of NaCl)
phf: gabriel_laddel: have you looked at closure (the web browser), have you tried bringing it up to date, etc?
gabriel_laddel: phf: I did - it requires more work than it is worth atm
phf: gabriel_laddel: also have you looked at CLIM source code that i think allegro people have released
mircea_popescu: altogether the attempt to make a "web browser" work seems educational (read : selffuckstick) than anything. we don't even want tcp to survive, let alone html, css or js.
phf: just curious if it's in a working state
phf: i'm pretty sure that's the one with genera heritage, so as close to the mothership
phf: they probably do x11 through ffi and other such things
gabriel_laddel: I met the franz doods irl once. Cannot understand *why* they do what they do at all.
phf: yeah, i'm surprised they weren't involved in, say, ITA
phf: ita used sbcl for their main product
phf: and clozure for their experimental product, which i'm not sure if that ended up getting delivered. that was like a separate ticketing system for some canadian airline
a111: Logged on 2015-12-01 19:10 ascii_field: but it is conceivable that xanalys was tired of paying for dev runtimes, which were expensive
phf: i think nobody's ever tried making mcclim performant, and on top of that all this work was put into dodgy projects (like ttf and general prettification, not to mention that beach spent long time trying to make it render to html (!!!))
phf: so i was curious if that allegro thing might be better in that respect, but i suspect it's one of those 20% rewrite, 80% patching projects
phf: i'm pretty sure athena in mcclim is not even real athena, but rather a simulation, because that was gui state of the art when mcclim started
gabriel_laddel: it just hands you geometry + some basic ways of abstracting it - what could possibly stink?
phf: that sounds like TK problem. like out of the box tk is dog ugly and unpleasant to use, but you can get a designer (an actual one, not like "designer") play with geometries, color and fonts to make it look quite good. i think athena would've benefited from somebody who's not an autist looking at it
phf: that's is an unsolvable problem.
phf: there's literally not a single system that solved this problem satisfyingly
phf: even gkt/qt that came pretty close look like uncanny valley on mac
gabriel_laddel: ftr, if you have funtoo / gentoo questions, angry_vincent on #funtoo is quite well versed in the idioms.
phf: i think that clim would benefit from removing all decorations and rolling it back to genera style thin and thick lines to at the very least get the baseline speed in place
phf: then you make sure that default fonts and geometries make sense
☟︎ phf: yeah, solve problems like mouse wheel, and general awareness of what's available in x11
phf: have 3 different fontsets, no way is ttf a solution
phf: not saying it's your responsibility, mcclim needs to solve that problem internally
phf: yeah, it's a hard problem unrelated to clim
phf: like i'm not convinced that cyrillic, greek etc. should be implemented on cl's character level, as opposed to something like ccl's concept of Rune
phf: "problem" is nobody's working on it
phf: search and sort and the rest take :key
phf: folks avoiding the serious problems because they are fat fucks with feelings, not because they correctly intuit :p
☟︎ phf: show me these serious folks
a111: Logged on 2016-06-29 15:48 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform empty and full of rubble does wonders to keep hopes down (and hope, expectation of future, TRULY is the mind eater for usians. be hopeless, you win.) and officious intermeddlers at a distance sufficient to breed actual people with some frequency.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 19:23 phf: then you make sure that default fonts and geometries make sense
a111: Logged on 2016-06-29 19:44 phf: the fact that you run shell scripts on your data basically disqualifies you from participating in management. you're supposed to leverage, that shell script is $500k initial investment ruby on rails project
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 19:29 phf: folks avoiding the serious problems because they are fat fucks with feelings, not because they correctly intuit :p
mircea_popescu: fact is, when as much as a vague hint of the flavour of the possibility of a stable base is presented, people go nuts working hands to bone to build it up
mircea_popescu: the knowledge that your work shall be forever useful is not even in the same ballpark with the knowledge you can now buy six more lattes.
trinque: neat, sounds similar approach to a shader
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 20:04 asciilifeform: just 'is this point black,' eats x, y.
mircea_popescu: the problem may also start where keyboards have to have shit printed on them through a legacy process.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 20:08 asciilifeform: (svg is a braindamaged monkey implementation of some of the above principles.)
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 20:29 asciilifeform: the beauty is that you can impose hard limits on the evaluating environments for these 'programs', them being non-turingcomplete, and thus you can make mechanical hard pronouncements re their properties.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 15:38 asciilifeform: trinque: fact remains, if you think i'm gonna run a binary, ANYONE's binary, for whatever reason, yer smoking dope.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 20:31 asciilifeform: e.g., 'fuck you i ain't running no PROGRAMS embedded in no stinkin' music file'
phf: funny how a lot of these ideas have been explored, grokked and then promptly not accepted
☟︎ phf: for example NeWS was gui system that did exactly what asciilifeform described, using what they called display postscript
phf: or common lisp music which is a subset of common lisp to describe a wavelength generation/transformation/composition (i'm pretty sure it was used to do first computer FM synthesis)
☟︎ phf: (actually news and display postscript are not the same technology, but same idea)
phf:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-06-30#1493744 << i think of these projects in the same terms i think of "knowledge" in general. same way as there's no abstract scientific knowledge that's somehow "accessible" to "society", there isn't universal good value to naggum's emacs, but there would've been value in naggum's ~to me~ as a kind of abstract node in what i'm hoping is a graph of sane people. same way as "scientific knowledge" is only a kind of comm
☝︎ phf: unication happening across long periods of time and space among certain kind of individuals
a111: Logged on 2016-06-30 19:32 asciilifeform: or naggum's - of emacs ?
phf: for example naggum specced out "LOCAL-TIME" concept in his "long painful history of time" paper, and it's an excellent solution. per your argument it's true that the actual communal implementation of local-time is a piece of shit. (if you've never read it, it's really horrible)
adlai: phf: have you had problems with local-time's functioning?
adlai has treated it as a black box of Just Fucking Works... what went wrong for you?
phf: well, there was a bunch of things, so i'm just going to hand waive it, but one major issue is that it doesn't actually have a date, time, datetime separation
phf: so 2016-01-01 will do very very wrong things depending on specific timezone combinations
adlai: yeah, the abstraction would better be called "timestamp"
phf: correct, but if it's timestamp then reader ~must~ fail on missing times, timezones
adlai: but then it wouldn't be unix enough!
adlai: the unixification of common lisp is glorious to behold, like galaxies colliding
phf: i got exposed to library as part of my attempt to revive cl-ledger, that actually doesn't need time component at all. as an accounting tool it almost entirely deals with dates (except in its timetracking functionality)
phf: and of course, every single assumption ledger makes breaks, when you twiddle you machine's system timezone
phf: lugm-time makes it very explicit that this is a wrong behavior
trinque: makes me feel better that so far I've stuck with int representations of time in my CL programs
trinque: get-universal-time and whatever the other one is, decode?
phf: decode-universal-time, get-decoded-time
adlai: local-time:timestamp-to-unix and its vice-versa give you this. i guess my use of local-time has been primarily to display timestamps readably
adlai: the number of bitcoin exchanges that give human-readable timestamps in API calls (because all API calls are done by hand and read by eye, right!?) is too damn high
phf: well, problems start manifesting when you start doing math on your times, and asking for things like 2 years and 1 hour later, etc.
phf: 2 years from 2016-01-01 is totally different from 2016-01-01T00:00:00Z
phf: amusingly where the underlying technology is super solid (because specced out by naggum) interface implementation is piece of shit, because written by kommmunitee
phf: amusingly enough java, via joda-time, is one of the few solutions that get it right
trinque: enterprise bureaucracy systems must have proper scheduling
phf: asciilifeform: but to get back to my point, the fact that local-time as implemented by kommmuniti is shit doesn't have to affect ~me~. i know what the right way (or a better one) of doing things is, but if naggum didn't write his paper, i wouldn't. i thought that's kind of the WoT approach
☟︎