mod6: ok compiled just fine
mod6: 'tail: /mnt/btc-dev/.bitcoin/debug.log: file truncated' :D
shinohai: lol mine built fine too on Gentoo, gonna test on Deb later
mod6: alright, i'll try out some of this stuff.
shinohai: I haven't got to test send/receive yet ... still no place to buy coins for cash in this godforsaken country.
mod6: this friggin bogus account balance.
mod6: u need some hacker tokens?
shinohai wishes we still had testnet in a way. :/
mod6: shinohai: oh its showing way more than i actually have in the wallet. it's re-adding the change to the overall balance.
mod6: gotta test with real numbers
shinohai: mine will show previous balances based on time it is synced on the blockchain
mod6: ok, truth be told, im not sure what its malfunction is.
mod6: it's a bug though. gotta dig into it. we have a ticket for it.
mod6: thebitcoin.foundation/tickets/tickets.html
mod6: anyway shoot me an addy, and i'll throw you some digits
mod6: ok so this thing dumped out a privkey just fine.
mod6: i tried to reimport that same key - it gave me an error, which, it probably should, but it's a bit non-descript.
mod6: not the end of the world. the whole thing needs a rewrite anyway.
mod6: private key dumped is valid
shinohai: back, yeah sometimes it acts a little weird when you import keys, like mine will hang a really long time.
shinohai: but it exports fine, which is really important too lol
mod6: oh. hm. we better test the shit out of importing priv keys
phf: mircea_popescu: that's what i was working on before the log issue became critical, and i might need to just write it up since i'm having hard time communicating the graph/press discrepancy
shinohai: I have done it at least 20-30 times with no major issues so far, mostly with vanitygen addys
mod6: does it work everytime as long as the privkey is valid?
mod6: what about invalid keys?
phf: there were suggestion "just do X" and i would try them and discover that they wouldn't actually solve the problem
shinohai: At least it didn't destroy my whole wallet like last time I used pybitcointools
mod6: does it error out properly?
mod6: heh, that's a good thing (tm)
shinohai: hmmm ... good question on the invalid key thing. That should be tested sure
phf: note that the graph edge can actually have multiple different meanings. on mod6 graph, an edge means "patches share a common hash". on my graph edge means "patch can be applied on top of other patch without conflict"
mod6: i just tested trying to dump a key from an address not in the wallet and it says:
mod6: "Private key for address 1ABitcoinAddyBlahBlah is not known"
mod6: some day im gonna have to write a boatload more cucumber tests for this shit
mod6: today is not that day
mod6: Ok i just tried to import an invalid private key
mod6: it says: 'error: {"code":-5,"message":"Invalid private key"}
shinohai: sweet. I kept getting that error when I first patched it because I forgot to decrypt my wallet like an idiot.
mod6: i just tried dumping a priv key from an invalid bitcoin address, error says: 'error {"code":-5,"message":"Invalid bitcoin address"}'
ben_vulpes: phf: iirc that notion descends from stan's original V.
phf: ben_vulpes: which notion?
ben_vulpes: that edges mean patches share a common hash
mod6: shinohai: ok thats an interesting test case
mod6: thats not a bad test we wanna try to break this fucker
phf: in ascii's v graph edge means "share a common hash"
shinohai: That's what I'm here for to break it or fuck it up :D
phf: but that doesn't guarantee a clean press as a graph transition. it only guarantees clean press when you topo sort the graph
ben_vulpes: > press as a graph transition << would you elaborate?
phf: say you have two files, a b. patch X takes a from null to hash 0 and b from null to hash 0
phf: patch X takes a from null to 1, b from null to 2
phf: patch Y takes b from 2 to 3
phf: patch Z takes a from 1 to 8, b from 3 to 4
phf: the graph for that is X->Y->Z, X->Z
phf: because X and Z share a's hash, X and Y share b's hash, Y and Z share b's hash
phf: but you can't actually press from X->Z, even though they are "antecedents", because Z requires Y to be pressed first
phf: X and Z share a's hash, but they have conflicting b hashes
phf: so you can do a single pass (and that's what my graph does) to eliminate all the edges that have conflicts
phf: but you then run into the issue is that the conflict might be introduced up the graph chain
phf: and that's where my thinking gets fuzzy, because i didn't really finish this whole exercise
ben_vulpes: what they have secret combudder/aerospace engineering programs?
phf: asciilifeform: no conflict doesn't have much to do with gnudiff. "conflict" in this case means that the patches contain at least TWO files one has shared hash, and the other one hash different hashes
phf: asciilifeform: that's not how v's ~graph~ operates
phf: i'm not talking about gnudiff and presses
phf: v's graph says "these two patches share a common hash", but that doesn't mean that one can be pressed on top of another in isolation
phf: i need to just write this stuff up, but at this point i'm leaning towards the idea that you can't really make a better graph than "shares a hash", and all that communicates is that "this guy uses content from this other guy"
phf: but if you want to talk about presses you have to look at the whole subgraph, hmm
ben_vulpes: it's only ever made sense to me in the context of pressing a specific patch.
ben_vulpes: as in, given this patchset, and this particular patch, apply all of the antecedents in the correct order.
ben_vulpes: again, if i recall correctly, asciilifeform's v will press all of the same-leaf-level patches as the given patch, /up to the given patch (inclusive)/ in alphabetical order
mod6: fuck i hate those things.
mod6: that one sounded HUGE though
mircea_popescu: phf i don't think polysemy is actually desirable in this context. edge should really mean one thing reliably.
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2016-05-08 03:06 mircea_popescu: phf i don't think polysemy is actually desirable in this context. edge should really mean one thing reliably.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform lulzy. "oh we can't brute force because reasons"
mircea_popescu: phf> but you then run into the issue is that the conflict might be introduced up the graph chain << fuck, waht !?
mircea_popescu: phf> the graph for that is X->Y->Z, X->Z << this is incorrect. the graph for that is "X->Y->Z". "X->Z" is not correct because Z requires b 3 and x does not provide b3.
☟︎ mod6: if you grab this, and it didn't get munged, you should end up with this hash: 6eaa543333746c11069ff9ca85aaa6330419d0be95de21fafcdbd500e1bc6df2ef10c2dc1d104b15cb50da7b362eac6bf1ddf3830329367b31c1e59e1dc3c6a9
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> 'no conflict' is fuzzy and introduces potential of subtle breakage << i agree with this view, for the reasons stated. same hash has to be the criterion.
mod6: further, use `v' and ensure that your patches dir is up to date with the mirror. if you're not sure, just mv your patches dir to like 'patches.old' and then use 'init' to get the latest.
mod6: then copy the funk vpatch into patches dir
mod6: then see if you can press it successfully: `./v.pl p v v054-wFunk asciilifeform_maxint_locks_corrected.vpatch`
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i re-read what he's saying, i'm not even sure we actually grasp what the man is trying to say.
mircea_popescu: or at least i can't seem to reorder it into something that seems reasonable.
mod6: asciilifeform: are you talking to me?
mod6: im talking about the hash of the vpatch file itself.
mod6: im pretty well convinced that what I have constructed works fine.
mircea_popescu: i got as far ; but i don't see where or how, and his example is broken
mod6: shinohai: dangit. i curl'd that wotpaste and i got a different hash output
mod6: 72780acdf0df0ed1510f3d5341c7191be3a4b6809be397d706aaf9123b1889a715bfc47511cf0b1800dbcffa6bcbcc26823cbfaea46f38993f94584f7a7ddeb1 -
mircea_popescu pictures alf in NOC with trilema rss scrolling on alrge screen
mircea_popescu: back in ro glory days there were a few people in various ministries doing just that
mod6: Oh, and a cat! Which, in absolute fairness, was by far the most intelligent local present. << haha
mod6: ben_vulpes: is there a way to get around this?
mod6: 6eaa543333746c11069ff9ca85aaa6330419d0be95de21fafcdbd500e1bc6df2ef10c2dc1d104b15cb50da7b362eac6bf1ddf3830329367b31c1e59e1dc3c6a9 -
ben_vulpes: browsers frequently pass newlines from forms as \r\n
ben_vulpes: anyways, should you care to, you can now also `curl -L -F "pastebox=@foo.txt" wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com`
ben_vulpes: produces the same hash as the submitted file
ben_vulpes:
http://archive.is/637lm << unrelatedly, don't you want to stay at the cow cave? the akita house? perhaps the host of the kangaroo treehouse's beguiling pose will entice you into a rental. if none of those appeal, consider pug palace, cow boat, or the cottage cheese cottage
a111: Logged on 2016-05-08 04:11 mircea_popescu: phf> the graph for that is X->Y->Z, X->Z << this is incorrect. the graph for that is "X->Y->Z". "X->Z" is not correct because Z requires b 3 and x does not provide b3.
phf: in v's definition of antecedent, the only requirement is "share a single hash"
phf: so the fact that Z requires b 3 is irrelevant, since Z also requires a 1
phf: that's not my definition by the way, that's how the graph is constructed inside v.py (v99.py:143 get_ante)
mircea_popescu: phf so basically you found a bug in mod6's perl implementation of v ?
phf: mircea_popescu: i don't think that's a bug, that's more of a conceptual thing.
phf: that's the behavior of the original v where the graph doesn't communicate any additional information beyond "shares a hash"
☟︎ a111: Logged on 2016-05-08 14:15 phf: that's the behavior of the original v where the graph doesn't communicate any additional information beyond "shares a hash"
mircea_popescu: i think mod6's might actually try to press on the basis of "has ONE antecedent"
phf: (i don't really know how mod6's vtron operates, only speaking of mine and asciilifeform's)
phf: mircea_popescu: in the example that i gave, get_ante is the function that establishes graph edges
mircea_popescu: phf the thing remains, it's risky to take tmsr prototypes and extract meaning as if they were definitive canonical implementations of concepts. they aren't, yet.
mircea_popescu: and as more people get involved this will be our bane, because it's really fucking difficult to correctly mark the walls and the scaffolding.
mircea_popescu: irl fragile parts like windows get a paint X on them, but here no such luck.
phf: well, there's no issue with that graph presentation, because it produces correct press. it's just that graph is "meaningless" without the toposort. visualizing it doesn't answer any question beyond "this and that share a hash"
mircea_popescu: back to the issue of substance. the idea is that whatever any current implementation may do, a situation where : 1) X takes A from 1 to 2 and B from 1 to 2 ; 2) Y takes A from 2 to 3 and B from 3 to 3 and 3) Z takes A from 2 to 4 and B from 3 to 4 should be represented as X->Y->Z only, and not as X->Y->Z, X->Z
mircea_popescu: yeah, asciilifeform and i think it's time to specify that rope.
mircea_popescu: i was thinking yest, "the solution here prolly is to forbid X containing multi As".
shinohai: The official tmsr roll 'o duct tape.
mircea_popescu: topological sorting becomes expensive and slow and etc
mircea_popescu: still, this is a problem in search of a good solution.
mircea_popescu: and phf has a point in that it's not even a very well understood one.
mircea_popescu: i mean socially. whether we have a technical problem or not is part of the problem.
phf: i think the problem is "what does v graph supposed to communicate to the viewer"
phf: and ~not~ anything related to a working press
mircea_popescu: phf "how did i end up with z and what's its connection to origin"
phf: mircea_popescu: right
mircea_popescu: right. and in the example given, X->Z (or rather, Z > X) is not a connection to origin.
phf: so there are two issues with the thinking down that line
phf: one is that edge can indicate independent transitions vs all dependents
phf: let's say you have x->y z->y. in the first case it means "i can press y on top of x" OR "i can press y on top of z"
mircea_popescu: oh, something like "either y or z could be pressed on top of x" yeah ok
phf: the second meaning is, and that one comes up since we have multiple files to a patch, in order to press x i need both y and z.
phf: wait, i think i utterly confused the issue. one sec let me restate it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform understand, it's not just that "if we can't get v to be easily intuitive it won't see mass adoption". it's moreover that if v isn't reducible to crystal fucking clear, we fucked something up.
mircea_popescu: i thought so too, but then again this guy's leet py script beat my bash hackery outta water, so let's hear him out.
phf: mircea_popescu: X<-Z Y<-Z, that means that having press to X you can now press Z on top OR having pressed to X you can now press Z on top. alternatively it can mean, in order to press Z you need both X and Y pressed.
mircea_popescu: in my mind, these two are not ambiguous, because correctly working graphaton would represent them respectively as
phf: ah, in which case you preserve the idea of "edge in means possible transition"
mircea_popescu: or fuck, seems somehow Z is the antecedent of everything nao ?
mircea_popescu: phf think of it like this : if letter comes earlier in alphabet, item it denotes comes earlier in time-entalpy.
phf: right, that's the basic principle
phf: antecedent relationship goes backwards though. x<-y perhaps means y points at x as a parent without x's knowledge
mircea_popescu: thinking about it, my enthalpy-based objections seem to come out of left field. somehow it seemed obvious to me that this property of "cone of knowledge" as per particle physics is part of v,
mircea_popescu: phf if you use -> ambiguously nobody will be able to think about this, you least of all.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform what's the standard term of "enthalpy equivalent in turing machines" ? the shannon factor ?
mircea_popescu: ah, no, sh is the equiv of entropy. "count of possible states".
mircea_popescu: ok, more practically speaking : the graphatron is a visualizer of individual patches event horizons. how about that.
mircea_popescu: no need to mix 19th century understanding of qm in shorthand statistical form at all.
mircea_popescu: (event horizon is the boundry past which phenomena can no further affect the observer)
mircea_popescu: (event horizon is the boundry whithin which phenomena can affect the observer) << this is a much less intuitive, if technically correct affirmative statement.
mircea_popescu: anywya : as the graph progresses past the antecedent of a leaf, it therefore goes outside the event horizon of that leaf.
mircea_popescu: so if we're drawing and leaf Z requires a in state 3 and we're at state 4, that's it for Z.
mircea_popescu: it doesn't illustrate all pressables that are, but a sort of all pressables that could ever be.
mircea_popescu: in completely unrelated lulz : the "minimum description length community" (what ? dunno, ask them) changed turing's nit to to "nat", because why the fuck not.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, write it a nice 8ball expander to keep adding primes and that's that, can let it be.
mircea_popescu: 2.15mn is not bad. punkman1 got anywhere with the sr stuff ?
mod6: <+ben_vulpes> browsers frequently pass newlines from forms as \r\n << werd thanks for the quick response :]
danielpbarron: my node is nearly caught up although it seems to always be ~200 blocks behind
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: lol i won't even try to guess what you think i should think about the alberta wildfires, but it's pretty damn lulzy to watch the reigning socialist party flail impotently as they attribute the projected 1/3rd loss of ~the country's~ economic growth for the quarter to "karma" because "karbon"
BingoBoingo: Oh, you've talked about the "boomtown" in decline thing going on there for a while
pete_dushenski: 'boomtown' isn't growing at 10-20% per annum, tis true, but it's pretty resilient at these oil price levels. $20 would be a massacre, $40+ is more than liveable
pete_dushenski:
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-08#1464636 << a chunk of this seemingly excess capacity is to account for two things : a) the obvious need for husky bodyguards to accompany asian heads of state, and b) the less obvious need for the same platform to accommodate the optional hybrid battery pack that weighs ~900lbs~ more and takes up most of the trunk.
☝︎ pete_dushenski: i wish bbet would come back so i could bet on phuctor cracking a deedbot l2 key. seems like the kind of thing no one would expect, like ron paul talking for 10 minutes or w/e it was
pete_dushenski: still weird that znort is awol. she has a key, why not provide updates here ?
pete_dushenski: armor, batteries, a week's supply of astronaut food...
pete_dushenski: though really, what's wrong with being assassinated ? better than irrelevancy in old age
pete_dushenski: that'll slow you down more than mysterious dedibox unpluggings
mircea_popescu: yeah. most upper line merc/lexus/what have you have the engine and torque transmission etc optimized for armor even if you're not buying the armor upgrade.
mircea_popescu: also a large part of why diesel upscale cars were popular for so long. excellent torque.
mircea_popescu: kinda died off with the age of rocketry, bout late 90s.
mircea_popescu: no idea why they didn't go full takn and add the gunports, but w/e.
mircea_popescu: "was naturally involved with the prosecution with evil itself offering:" << this dun flow. "was naturally involved with the prosecution:"
pete_dushenski: gunports make plenty of sense, as does the fact that tmsr will end up redesigning personal transportation along with computing and everything else besides
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform note that they very carefully don't go places lenin went w/o a thought.
mircea_popescu: yeah, but that was only half the answer. rocket also delivers the hsaped charge.
pete_dushenski: something like $4-6mn a year ? maybe not much, but more than mp spends, likely
pete_dushenski: alas, i must unfortunately be off again. will endeavour to return soon. and for longer!
mircea_popescu: the notion that money buys security is not unlike the notion that smegma buys health.
mircea_popescu: (yes, smegma does have some health benefits in some circumstances that you're not likely to encounter, that nevertheless had a larger impact on history of life on earth than anything you ever encountered conceivably could.)
a111: Logged on 2016-05-04 04:08 mircea_popescu: two people have an argument and one gets really angry, police can fix this. random derp gets overexcited tries to ship smoke detector shavings to ex gf's mother, police can fix this.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform famous case of central asian conflict, rich guy vs powerful guy, rich guy end up fed liquid gold.
mircea_popescu: incidentally that was VERY MUCH a case of usistan vs iranistan.
mircea_popescu: dude was srsly "oh we're too intellectual property to care"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you will prolly appreciate the little bayestard murder gem i've produced:D
mircea_popescu: and in other news, holy shit check out teh scam of teh future :
http://infinitythegame.com/whatis.php << why not do all the hard work of computing a rpg BY HAND! and pay 50 pounds per fucking figurine so you can paintakingly reconstruct all the hard work of a gfx card by hand also!
mircea_popescu: next they're gonna sell these schmucks bitcoin mining kids in longhand. 95 dollar special pencil! has a bitcoin logo on it!
danielpbarron: mircea_popescu> incidentally that was VERY MUCH a case of usistan vs iranistan << iranistan is the actual name of a street around where i live, a word invented by pt barnum (the circus guy) who was the mayor for a time ; he wanted to build his mansion on a street that had an exotic sounding name. The thing has since burned down if i'm not mistaken, and the street is now littered with those getto style houses that look like they sho
danielpbarron: mircea_popescu> and in other news, holy shit check out the scam of the future << sounds like a copy-cat of "warhammer" which I think had a medieval theme; the figures come unpainted and you're supposed to paint them yourself. i think that's more of the point as a little art project although i'm sure the price is ridiculous
mircea_popescu: but anyway : these seem fully built. not that there's anything wrong with buying little mass produced statuettes, it's how the catholic church made half its money.
BingoBoingo: Well, if the idea made money before it is going to get recycled
shinohai: If only they still sold indulgences ...
BingoBoingo: What do you think all those AIDS chairities are?
davout: also bitbet's heart seems to have started beating again
deedbot: joecool voiced for 30 minutes.