mike_c: the highest bid at the end of Wednesday the 6th of April 2016 << GMT?
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
mike_c: and often something like "the later of that or 10 minutes after the last legitimate bid" kind of thing for an outcry auction like this
mike_c: ^ davout
phf: asciilifeform: so is it possible to build chromium without dbus?
BingoBoingo: phf: alf seems to run chromium, so probably? Journey to doing so likely unpleasant
phf: that's what it looks like, a rabbit hole
BingoBoingo: It's more a physical plant time of year anyways.
BingoBoingo researching how to fix/replace sillcock
asciilifeform: phf: i never managed it. but you ~can~ run it on a box without dbus, it appears.
phf: this linux laptop business is 2 steps forward 10 steps back
asciilifeform: aha.
asciilifeform: still more usable than crapple, where i was unable - despite many weeks of sweat - to get very very basic things running (e.g., a locally-built gnat, or a mips-gcc toolchain)
phf: i suppose it's one of those cases where one is good at what one knows
phf: i'm having a hard time deciding if i should just keep using 10.9 until it's fully deprecated by unix userspace even, or switch asap
phf: fwiw i have working gnat on os x
asciilifeform: with 'gps' ?
asciilifeform: and with NO BINARIES FROM OUTSIDE ?
asciilifeform: and does it build for targets other than x86-64 ?
mircea_popescu: lol get out.
asciilifeform: (i have shit gnat on crapple also, it is not hard)
phf: you need to spec your problems better :>
mircea_popescu: was it ever possible to stand up os-x anything "with no binaries from outisde" ?
asciilifeform: phf is learning mircea_popescu's problem-solving algo i see! l0l
asciilifeform: 1) don't have problem 2) ??? 3) profit
mircea_popescu: no im sure he knew it from b4
mircea_popescu: speaking of which... log ?
asciilifeform: i've been using his log for dayz - http://glyf.org/h/t-a
mircea_popescu: oh
asciilifeform: (it is missing linkability and any kind of control knobs but otherwise is spiffy0
asciilifeform: )
mircea_popescu: lol. asciilifeform is learning phf'sproblem-solving algo i see!!!
phf: hmm, almost, maybe 2 more hours of work. deployable, but i want log collector to stand on its own, rather than rely on znc before i deploy
mircea_popescu: tbh i really liked the old log css.
asciilifeform: ^ also
mircea_popescu: a cool.
mircea_popescu: to celebrate, ima share that i saw kundun, and it's fucking stupid.
mircea_popescu: but that aside, anyone else notice the whole tibetan thing reeks of overgrown sioux or somesuch ?
asciilifeform: it exists entirely as a usgtronic 'oh noez empire that isn't us is gassing its vermin'
asciilifeform: from day0
mircea_popescu: apparently primitive hunter-gatherer societies accidentally left behind their time end up in the same ruts.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform tibet existed long before the england that spawned the us was invented.
asciilifeform: tibet - existed
asciilifeform: whining re cn demolition thereof - no.
mircea_popescu: doing the same thing as now - sorta playing romania to sino-mongol disputes.
mircea_popescu: yes.
asciilifeform: 'The Tibetans refer to the Dalai Lama as 'Kundun', which means 'The Presence'. He was forced to escape from his native home, Tibet, when communist China invaded and enforced an oppressive regime upon the peaceful nation of Tibet.' << barfalicious
phf: "peaceful nation of tibet"?
mircea_popescu: the chinese version, equally accurate, being that they brought the red light to a ridiculous sort of still-medieval sicily.
mircea_popescu: in 19fucking50.
mircea_popescu: anyway. scorsese.
mircea_popescu: there's nice hats and the people have pleasant voices.
mircea_popescu: wtf tho, still stupid.
asciilifeform: we have professional tibet whiner squads here in washington
asciilifeform: along with 'falun gong' fanatics
mircea_popescu: they have armenians here ; not so much tibet.
asciilifeform: the latter, dress in yellow and set up stands with pictures of dismembered corpses, etc. and nondescript trucks with caption 'organ collection' etc.
mircea_popescu: it's like ... "and then the turks came, killed all the men and sold the women off into slavery" and somehow the expected answer is something other than "omfg, here when ?!"
asciilifeform: the pro whiners typically orbit the few km radius of white house and other places where bureaucrats and tourists can be found
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform is that some sort of penis slang ?
mircea_popescu: here too!
mircea_popescu: fancy that, do you suppose konspiraci, or do you suppose idiocy is clever in the same way everywhere.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: part of their mythology is that cn disassembles miscreants for spare parts (afaik this is not untrue, but the scale of it is exaggerated for effect)
mircea_popescu: the trite slyness of stupidity.
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: and before communism, cn cooked dead babies. it's a lively place.
asciilifeform: civilized folk eat their babies raw, everybody knows!1111
mircea_popescu: for proportionate lulz : http://theseoultimes.com/ST/?url=/ST/db/read.php?idx=7333
phf: i'm vaguely disappointed that chinese didn't preserve tibet as a kind of natural habitat, but had to go civilizing the place
asciilifeform: phf: iirc they were going to, but then went in and barfed and broke out the ddt
danielpbarron is a descendant of armenians who escaped the genocide
mircea_popescu: o thus the good looking beard ?
danielpbarron: heh i guess
asciilifeform: according to one version, the turks invented the mass gassing (they marched a buncha armenians into a cave and lit fires)
danielpbarron: also marched them into the desert to starve
asciilifeform: aha, more famously.
mircea_popescu: so what's your stance on the armenian genocide ?
danielpbarron: i'm not bitter about it; seems to me those that survived are better off for it
mircea_popescu: as per usual.
asciilifeform: as i understand, the ones to be clobbered were the ~most~ turk-integrated
danielpbarron: i think it was probably a genocide (as opposed to a war or however the turks spin it) but that's probably more humiliating a stance for the armenians to take
asciilifeform: so if they had remained alive, 'armenian' today might simply mean just a subtype of turk
mircea_popescu: like kurd ? :D
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: and in other news
mircea_popescu: ;;google albert fish
gribble: Albert Fish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Fish>; ALBERT FISH - American Hauntings: <http://www.prairieghosts.com/fish.html>; Albert Fish | Murderpedia, the encyclopedia of murderers: <http://murderpedia.org/male.F/f/fish-albert.htm>
asciilifeform: 'He also hit himself repeatedly with a nail-studded paddle and inserted wool doused with lighter fluid into his anus and set it alight.' << l0l!
mircea_popescu: other famous washdcians
mircea_popescu: (also, how to know if nerdy chick is really into weird, or just namedropping the mainstream-famous set)
BingoBoingo: ;;ticker --market all
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 417.93, vol: 1440.36881650 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 416.807, vol: 3747.14804 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 419.85, vol: 4749.58575109 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 420.391893, vol: 16053.81250000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 421.0, vol: 507.82944006 | Volume-weighted last average: 419.665665715
BingoBoingo: ;;more
gribble: Error: You haven't asked me a command; perhaps you want to see someone else's more. To do so, call this command with that person's nick.
asciilifeform: in other nyooz, http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/03/certified-ethical-hacker-website-caught-spreading-crypto-ransomware
asciilifeform: 'For the past four days, including during the hour that this post was being prepared on Thursday morning, a major security certification organization has been spreading TeslaCrypt malware—despite repeated warnings from outside researchers.'
mircea_popescu: and yet the derp won't name names.
mircea_popescu: fuck him, the stupid whore that spawned him and the drunk she spawned him with.
asciilifeform: which names
mircea_popescu: "a major".
mircea_popescu: really.
asciilifeform: 'EC-Council, the Albuquerque, New Mexico-based professional organization that administers the Certified Ethical Hacker program, started spreading the scourge on Monday.'
asciilifeform: ^ named ?
mircea_popescu: muchbetter.
asciilifeform: ^ next para
mircea_popescu: the shit doesn't belong in writing.
asciilifeform: sure it's mostly a snoar.
mircea_popescu has been on a crusade to detrain (mostly women) from the retarded habit of generalizing summarization as displayed here for a decade now.
asciilifeform: Run Moar Winblowz.
trinque: davout: I figgered it out. it was pissed about whitespace at end
trinque: will fix, ty for telling me
ben_vulpes: in other completely unrelated news, i went out to what passes for wine country here to refresh the office cellars. found some delicious bottles for not absurd prices, lovely people, etc. but! stunner to me at least:
ben_vulpes: 1982 muscle car driven at 75-95 mph for 160 miles gets 18.25 mpg
ben_vulpes: give or take a figure of significance or two.
BingoBoingo: Seriously, the window sticker numbers are a lie
ben_vulpes: does this CBlock->nDos thing actually matter?
phf: ben_vulpes: you mean cblock specifically or the whole cblock/ctransaction DoS mechanism?
ben_vulpes: "DoS" seems rather farfetched, a readthrough of the DoS usage implies it's more of an ad-hoc block/txn rule enforcement mechanism.
ben_vulpes: but i do mean cblock specifically, and in the context of producing hashes.
ben_vulpes: er
ben_vulpes: digests
phf: it is perhaps useless since we don't have orphanage anymore
phf: what you mean in the context of producing hashes?
punkman: still gotta ban misbehaving peers
phf: true
ben_vulpes: punkman: kinda orthogonal from serialization of blocks to disk
ben_vulpes: i've yet to determine if ndos survives serialization
phf: it doesn't, unless i'm missing something
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
ben_vulpes: phf: correctly restated: "in the context of producing nonce-th block/bit digests per 'prerequisite'"
ben_vulpes: foo
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
ben_vulpes: ^^ trinque
phf: pretty sure that lisp code is going sentient
danielpbarron: up agorecki
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
phf: ben_vulpes: i don't mean it in a sense of clarify your sloppy thinking, i mean it in a sense of i have no idea what you talking about
phf: $up agorecki
deedbot: agorecki voiced for 30 minutes.
danielpbarron: heh i was curious if space was acting as a command character
phf: ohoh
ben_vulpes: it's a half-decent bug report i think
trinque: what is causing that?
trinque: space at front?
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
trinque: lol!
trinque: k
ben_vulpes: phf: are you familiar with trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/ ?
phf: ben_vulpes: i'm not, that might be the problem
ben_vulpes: aok yes piles 'o context in there
ben_vulpes: o'*
agorecki: how would mp shoot down a blockchain protocol change? I've never seen him post on the bitcoin dev mailing list
danielpbarron: protocol changes are considered here
agorecki: they're considered in a lot of places
ben_vulpes: agorecki: never did his six months it appears
ben_vulpes: this is an oooooold thread.
danielpbarron: let me clarify: they're decided here
agorecki: you don't have authority over anything
danielpbarron: $down agorecki
phf: agorecki: and you come all the way to tell us that? that's awfully considerate of you
ben_vulpes: 'twas just getting fun, danielpbarron
ben_vulpes: i wanted to see his brain melt when you linked him to the foundation, ml etc
ben_vulpes: $up agorecki therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/
deedbot: agorecki voiced for 30 minutes.
ben_vulpes: agorecki: we're just over here having our own little insane bitcoin cult party
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: has the /best/ drugs
agorecki: so you're making a better bitcoin and hijacking the name?
BingoBoingo: to be fair so far it is isn't a better bitcoin, merely best client for same bitcoin
agorecki: alright, so if he doesn't like a change it doesn't get into the client and therefore wouldn't be used
ben_vulpes: mind the client/protocol gap
agorecki: if miners were using his client is what I was meaning. don't know how hard it would be to get bit coin companies to use his software
ben_vulpes: what "bit coin companies", hm?
ben_vulpes: agorecki: miners run heavily patched whateverthefucktheyfeel like
danielpbarron: the current goal is specifically to make sure the current miners don't use it, and all the bitcoin companies meet here anyway
ben_vulpes: agorecki: do you remember the "voting with blocks" fiasco?
agorecki: the ones that let all of the devices work without having a full copy of the blockchain
ben_vulpes: agorecki: which ones what?
agorecki: no. I'm a prisoner of the illuminati... I'm afraid I missed that event...
ben_vulpes: rather illuminating
BingoBoingo: ;;google site:qntra.net bip 66
gribble: Another Post BIP 66 Fork Dies after 3 Blocks | Qntra: <http://qntra.net/2015/07/another-post-bip-66-fork-dies-after-3-blocks/>; Chain Fork Reveals BIP Process Broken | Qntra: <http://qntra.net/2015/07/chain-fork-reveals-bip-process-broken/>; Miners Enforcing BIP 65: Plan for SPV Miner Forks | Qntra: <http://qntra.net/2015/12/miners-enforcing-bip-65-plan-for-spv-miner-forks/>
ben_vulpes: the mainstreamers had this notion that miners would vote on their acceptance of a certain fork by including some data in the block
ben_vulpes: many miners threw the voting bit
ben_vulpes: and yet few actually went so far as to implement that which they were voting for
ben_vulpes: iirc
punkman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFMv0tEJfbM
danielpbarron: davout, what's the deal with paymium? no qntra? not even a blog post?
davout: danielpbarron: i'll give more details later, working on bitbet for now
deedbot-: [fr.anco.is] BitBet receivership second progress report - http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-second-progress-report
asciilifeform: ftr i will not be raising my max bid. if anyone wants the thing, they can bit 9 + epsilon.
asciilifeform: *bid
danielpbarron: trinque, ^ I killed the bot somehow
davout: ouch
danielpbarron: yeah something is broken, it says everyone has 0 in all l1 and l2
deedbot-: [fr.anco.is] So long Paymium! - http://fr.anco.is/2016/so-long-paymium
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> 1982 muscle car driven at 75-95 mph for 160 miles gets 18.25 mpg << engines advanced significantly past 30 or so years ; idiocies of the eu envirofreaks and their us-based fanbois notwithstanding.
mircea_popescu: if you care to know, the top of the line limo in most of the world for the previous 30 years before that was black, weighed two tons + made of mostly sheet metal, and did about 5 kms to the liter.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes> "DoS" seems rather farfetched, a readthrough of the DoS usage implies it's more of an ad-hoc block/txn rule enforcement mechanism. <<< it is exactly what it is.
mircea_popescu: agorecki> how would mp shoot down a blockchain protocol change? I've never seen him post on the bitcoin dev mailing list <<<< ahahaha what the fuck is this now.
mircea_popescu: mmkay.
mircea_popescu: and wouldn;t you know it, no nsa report. hey asciilifeform how is it that BingoBoingo hanbot jurov etc all manage to do their reports in time and you i always have to remind ?
mircea_popescu: are you specialer than them or something ?
jurov: btw, S.MPOE dividends
mircea_popescu: aha.
mircea_popescu: thinking about it, a comment like "x never did his six months it appears" is unlikely to help x in any way. it used to be that kids were trained to throw an exception whenever something they didn't understood happened. by now however, ustards especially, just ignore the whole thing they didn't understand and continue as if it never happened.
mircea_popescu: $up PeterL
deedbot: PeterL voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: $gettrust deedbot PeterL
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
mircea_popescu: o.O
mircea_popescu: did the db crap out trinque ?
PeterL: did deedbot not import the old WoT?
mircea_popescu: it did, had a burp earlier with danielpbarron it seems
PeterL: http://trilema.com/2016/the-lordship-list-third-year-on-trilema-this-time/ << thus are anointed the twelve apostles of the Cult of Trilema
mircea_popescu: fancy that!
mircea_popescu: in other mews, http://imgur.com/gallery/wBtPCiN
mircea_popescu: wait, jesus wasn't an apostle was he ?
PeterL: no, jesus --> assbot
mircea_popescu: i suppose i could be my own judas, in a strange sort of kathar approach to it.
PeterL: bah, deedbot
mircea_popescu: oh
mircea_popescu: hm. shouldn't the fact that he has come again be pretty bad news ?
PeterL: why bad?
mircea_popescu: well i dunno how much the xtian plagiarists understood of the thing they were trying to steal&rename, but
mircea_popescu: once the messiah comes back it's the end of the show
PeterL: destroy wicked, reward righteous, only bad if you are not prepared
mircea_popescu: i dun particularly wish to be rewarded!
mircea_popescu: what is this, fucking retirement ?
mircea_popescu: "oh you've been with the corp for 55 years here's a gold watch" ? fuck that.
PeterL: what retirement? you get to keep living without all the deprs holding you back
mircea_popescu: right ? exactly. what did YOU think retirement is ? "finally rid of the kids"
PeterL: I figure retirement is when you get to do whatever you want
mircea_popescu: clearly you've never retired.
PeterL: yes, but I can dream!
mircea_popescu: retirement is when you get so fucking bored you consider starting something new.
mircea_popescu: fancy that, the anglos spell it with a c like sane people for once. heh.
PeterL: spell what with a c?
mircea_popescu: cathars.
mircea_popescu: don't tell me you just ignored the thing you didn't understand!
danielpbarron: mircea_popescu> once the messiah comes back it's the end of the show << no, there's supposed to be a thousand year reign of Christ on earth before the whole thing is destroyed
mircea_popescu: i guess.
PeterL: now I feel lost, where did we see cathars that I ignored?
mircea_popescu: "<mircea_popescu> i suppose i could be my own judas, in a strange sort of kathar approach to it."
mircea_popescu: what did your evaluator make of that line ? "i suppose i could be my own judas, bla bla" ?
PeterL: oh, now I see it
mircea_popescu: right.
PeterL: somehow I glazed over the whole second half of your sentence, I don't understand what cathars have to do with Judas?
mircea_popescu: that somehow is really the important thing!
mircea_popescu: you seem to think it's an isolated and meaningless incident. i'm willing to bet it's both systematic and fundamental, moreso than any positive principle you might identify on deliberate survey.
PeterL: <mircea_popescu> what did your evaluator make of that line ? "i suppose i could be my own judas, bla bla" ? << well, yes, sometimes I just skim over half your statements
mircea_popescu: but be that as it may : the cathars (from greek, with a k there) are one in a string of organised anticlerical opposition to the official doctrine, politically speaking.
PeterL: so you are saying you are going to stand as opposition to yourself?
mircea_popescu: ideologically, they, like the manicheans (yes, hence maniheism) and the bogomils and early gnostic christians held some things about the dual nature of the perceptible world
mircea_popescu: in opposition to the unitarian approach in power.
mircea_popescu: PeterL no, i am saying that opposition to myself has ~0 chances to come from the sort of mind that ignores half of what happens.
mircea_popescu: and to anything else, also.
danielpbarron: at a quick glance, I see cathars believed the old testament God was a different God than the one in the new testament
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron you familiar with the old idea that you know, the creation-god is this hunchback covetous idiot of a fellow,
mircea_popescu: and the imprisoned sophia in his chin dribble ?
danielpbarron: no
mircea_popescu: well... if one's to study religion, even if limiting it to europe, there's a lot more there than anyone cares to admit.
mircea_popescu: amusingly, the parts that didn't come there in the shape of "look what books we can't read we stole from the jews, let's ignore half the sentences" came there in the shape of "look what books we can't read we stole from the armenians, let's ignore half the sentences".
mircea_popescu: you know the joke with the old armenian patriarch dieing in anhalt ?
danielpbarron: I don't claim to or care to study all religion, except to say that I will often look into those claiming to believe the Bible for the purpose of exposing false teachings to whoever showed it to me
danielpbarron: no, what's that?
mircea_popescu: old guy dying, all his many sons around my bed. he speaks barely audibly :
mircea_popescu: "my sons, preserve the jews!"
mircea_popescu: what, father ?!
mircea_popescu: "my sons... preserve the jews! for once they're gone...
mircea_popescu: we're next!"
trinque: danielpbarron: imma teach you guys to give proper bug reports :p
mircea_popescu: plox.
danielpbarron: the Armenians are of very similar decent : they are from Aram, a grandson of Noah
trinque: what'd you say to the bot before it parted and rejoined?
trinque: PeterL's problem was that the thing's caps sensitive; I'm going to fix that today
mircea_popescu: they're also of very similar ability. ancient ro joke going something like "if you see a romanian successfuly engaged in commerce, you're looking at an armenian"
mircea_popescu: sister to "if you see a hungarian speaking foreign languages, you're looking at a jew."
danielpbarron: trinque, i did gettrust PeterL and gettrust jurov in private to make him leave the 2nd time
mircea_popescu: $gettrust deedbot PeterL
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 3 by 5 connections.
mircea_popescu: oh win.
mircea_popescu: gtn.
trinque: danielpbarron: might've had extraneous whitespace somewhere in the command
trinque: that's the other bug on the list so far
danielpbarron: yep, I did
mircea_popescu: $get trust herro
deedbot: $get trust herro is not a command.
mircea_popescu: $gettrust mir cea_popescu
mircea_popescu: $gettrust mircea_popescu
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 155 by 107 connections.
mircea_popescu: $gettrust mircea_popescu
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
mircea_popescu: seems to be doing ok ?
danielpbarron: l1 : 0 ?
mircea_popescu: well there's no mir cea
danielpbarron: .. the second one, with 155 in l2
mircea_popescu: o.O
mircea_popescu: $gettrust deedbot mircea_popescu
deedbot: L1: 1, L2: 9 by 9 connections.
mircea_popescu: yes because there's no l1 outside of this
danielpbarron: oh right, from yourself
PeterL: aha, it worked!
danielpbarron: oh huh, Aram was a son of Shem even, making Armenians semitic
mircea_popescu: well yes
mircea_popescu: anyway, linquistically if you care, old italic as well as greek, along with armenian and georgian all derive chiefly from phoenician, which is a canaanite language.
mircea_popescu: aramaic script is a variation thereof.
mircea_popescu: but these are all considerations for one millennium prior to what the europeans generally regard as "history".
mircea_popescu: which is a funny construct, it's like ... 3k bc egypt... 2k years blank... greece and rome!!!
mircea_popescu: during that blank space, the jews conquered egypt and started a new dynasty, founded carthage, tyre, byblos, etc ; dominated the golden crescent and so on.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i have not forgotten the broadcast! it will appear tonight.
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform rarely forgets anything, but is permanently behind schedule in 40 different places
asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu i had a notion: if we're no longer holding the 'father's pistols' line, is there any good reason not to replace openssl in trb with, e.g., ada bignum ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: (the issue of whether the muscle exists, to do this, is a separate question. the above is simply re the political aspect of whether it is a thing that is even to be contemplated.)
asciilifeform: i regard it as a mircea_popescutronic question.
phf: wasn
phf: err
asciilifeform: in other 'news', in my dream, mircea_popescu was camping in a tent in my house, and reading a dead tree copy of the logz summarized by somebody or other, and it was a thing on ancient yellowed paper, he cursed and spat and in the end tore it up and started smashing things, then went out the door and started firing some sort of energy weapon at the trees
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform there is no good reason - for the contemplated july alternative offering
asciilifeform: aha this is what i thought.
mircea_popescu: on the contrary - the more crud that can be snipped the very better.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how about c-s in place of ecdsa ?
mircea_popescu: if we had a working implementation!
mircea_popescu: and something instead of bdb. but INSTEAD not alongfuckingside!
mircea_popescu: and and and.
asciilifeform: again these are mircea_popescutronic questions! they leave aside the issue of 'have we the divisions'
mircea_popescu: truth be told our diligent efforts over the years - and by our i mean mostly not mine - exposed so many hooks for fixing and improving it's not even funny.
asciilifeform: the reason i asked was that i noticed that ada links just fine with cpp crud, both having been shat out of ordinary gcc
mircea_popescu: nb.
asciilifeform: so piecemeal organ replacement is a realizable thing.
mircea_popescu: this is pretty great news, actually.
asciilifeform: folks who have been experimenting with gnat prolly already realized this. but i am leaving it here for n00bz.
phf: property of all gcc, can link fortran for numerics
asciilifeform: aha
asciilifeform: (i can't fathom ~why~ you would, but yes, you can)
asciilifeform: 90% of why i like ada is that it 'compiles like c' (i.e. without massive runtime or bytecode claptrap in place of ida-able binary) WHILE having bounds-checked array accesses etc.
asciilifeform: if this were available somewhere else, i would look into the somewhere else.
asciilifeform: 9 or so of the remaining % is because you get static memory (no consing, no gc, FORCED to intelligently allocate).
phf: i'm just anticipating the next tmsr language
mircea_popescu: fortran ?!
phf: forth? nasm with manual syscalls?
mircea_popescu: lol
asciilifeform: phf: definitely not the latter, x86 is to be killed and cement poured where it is buried
asciilifeform: i actually REMOVED the asm optimizations from my fork of gmp, for instance.
asciilifeform: (ALL of them, not simply x86)
asciilifeform: 'Я тебя не трону, а в душе зарою И прикажу залить цементом, чтобы не разрыть.' (tm) (r) (vysotsky)
mircea_popescu: and what do you plan to run bitcoin on, elbruses ?
phf: scheme-81
phf: but first we port symbolics ada to scheme-81, so we can compile trb with symbolics ada
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is the basic principle of 'specificity of diddling' (for fuck's sake it needs a name)
asciilifeform: that is, if i want to run it on an arch that gets auto-genned on my fpga every morning, i oughta be able to.
asciilifeform: (incidentally this is an actual thing, and a decade ago i actually thought that i invented it, but then learned that it was cristina cifuentes's thesis)
asciilifeform: iirc.
mircea_popescu: aha
phf: that's also an idea from "when everything had a spec, and everything was written to spec, and things just fit into each other neatly" decades
phf: i.e. symbolics ada
asciilifeform: phf: guess what, this is coming back!1111
asciilifeform: even if it takes napalm.
asciilifeform: and at this point i don't much care what burns, for it to come back.
asciilifeform: for come back it must.
asciilifeform: because without this, a computer is not an asset, but a catastrophicly limitless liability.
asciilifeform: and you might as well go back to hawala and broken clay tablet halves as pgp.
phf: kind of like rms bringing back mit ai lab, when all the cool kids left for smbx
asciilifeform: rms lived on the spine of a usgtronic dragon, and it is not clear to me that he had any influence in reality over what the dragon did
mircea_popescu: deedbot http://dpaste.com/0F6N1PP.txt
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> because without this, a computer is not an asset, but a catastrophicly limitless liability. << hey, it doesn't matter, usg will pretend to be mp and make it all good!11
phf: given the state of things, i'm not convinced that hawala is the worst we can do
mircea_popescu: i am convinced it is the best we can do, as far as the human element goes.
mircea_popescu: yes, could benefit from soap and electricity, but these aren't fundamental changes
mircea_popescu: they only seem fundamental to the hordes of spawn for which a soul couldn't be found, so they ended up consumers.
asciilifeform: hey we're still using the same humanz
asciilifeform: as 2000 y ago
trinque: deedbot- http://dpaste.com/0F6N1PP.txt
asciilifeform: so how else.
mircea_popescu: trinque oh wrong one ?
deedbot-: accepted: 1
trinque: yar, for now
mircea_popescu: kk.
asciilifeform: though an argument can be made that the quality of human material available in practice is ~considerably~ below what was around 100, much less 2000y ago.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform nono, the use of ~~~SCIENCE~~~ will allow a collection of bureaucrats to satisfy in practice the delusional requirements of what mp "should have been"
phf: would still want to figure out a bunch of problems before applying it "with computers" anyway, crypto, airgap, having it stored in a such a way that the inevitable arrest doesn't result in "5000 financial records were recovered in a daring raid by the brave constables"
mircea_popescu: phf you are not alone in the view that this whole thing is too soon.
asciilifeform: phf: this goes back, again, to mircea_popescu's human-element. see the 'pulling the pin' thread from 2 wks ago
mircea_popescu: the only counter is that there is no such thing as too soon in the flesh. until the time one stands up from couch, just how out of shape one is will never be known.
mircea_popescu: which is why best time's today.
asciilifeform: 'the best time is 20 yrs ago, 2nd best - today'
mircea_popescu: or that.
mircea_popescu: hey, my own father spent what he imagined to be his golden years, at the time and after that time, doing "research" for his government on supposedly, computing, but really, holding each other's dicks like a bunch of chimps.
asciilifeform: phf: you need a man willing to pull the pin, yes. BUT you ALSO need the pin !
mircea_popescu: i'm all for "20 years ago", but they're fucking idiots.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: and guess what i do here at rupture farmz!
mircea_popescu: good for you you don't have any kids.
asciilifeform: i dun even have a dog or cat.
shinohai: ;;later tell BingoBoingo when you have time, need to discuss what do with my paltry qntra shares.
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what did 'research' consist of there ? re-creating z80 ?
mircea_popescu: the cray, really.
asciilifeform: fwiw my grandfather spent a good chunk of his life on hydraulic analogue computerz.
asciilifeform: pretty sad thing to do in 1950s-60s imho
asciilifeform: but what can you do, orcish landz, not enough transistor for everybody.
phf: my grandfather spent all his time implementing, than architecting, than overseeing bunch of other people implementing and architecting analogue avionics for su rockets, mil and "gagarin space man" kind
mircea_popescu: mechanical turbulence in fluids ~10^8 more than electrical turbulence in conductors.
mircea_popescu: hey, my grandfather beat teh russkis outta odessa.
mircea_popescu: we're well set for grandfathers.
mircea_popescu: it's the fucking fathers that dropped the ball.
asciilifeform: l0l!
asciilifeform: incidentally the folks of odessa preferred ro occupants to germans. for an interesting reason.
asciilifeform: ro soldiers liked bribes.
mircea_popescu: buluceala ? aha.
asciilifeform: a man taken by siguranza could, sometimes, be turned loose upon receipt of proper bribe.
asciilifeform: gestapo - never.
asciilifeform: or so goes legend.
mircea_popescu: bout 50%, iirc, that sometimes.
BingoBoingo: <shinohai> ;;later tell BingoBoingo when you have time, need to discuss what do with my paltry qntra shares. << Pile more qntra shares on top of them?
mircea_popescu: ;;google ludmila pavlichenko
gribble: Lyudmila Pavlichenko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyudmila_Pavlichenko>; Eleanor Roosevelt and the Soviet Sniper | History | Smithsonian: <http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/eleanor-roosevelt-and-the-soviet-sniper-23585278/>; lyudmila Pavlichenko - Soviet WWII sniper hero - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJHpWPBtEwQ>
mircea_popescu: aha. ukr chix best chix.
mats: hi
mircea_popescu: hola!
mats: sick day today :)
mats: whats the new criteria for lordliness?
mircea_popescu: political ability and a fief.
mats: c
mats: ic*
PeterL: danielpbarron has a fief?
asciilifeform: iirc he did something for s.mg ?
mircea_popescu: i guess he must!
phf: now lets see, the pink pantaloons are out, and yellow jockstraps are in. the handkerchief should be in the ~left~ pocket of your velvet vest and not ~right~ pocket of a wwii bomber jacket. that one tripped up a bunch of contenders. last minute addition was a brooch, make sure it matches the cravat, not a ground for dismissal, but judges look favorably at lord applicants that are aware of only the latest tmsr fashions
trinque: lol
mircea_popescu: in other news, Pavlichenko was later invited by Eleanor Roosevelt to tour America relating her experiences. While meeting with reporters in Washington, D.C. she was dumbfounded about the kind of questions put to her. "One reporter even criticized the length of the skirt of my uniform, saying that in America women wear shorter skirts and besides my uniform made me look fat".
asciilifeform: phf is a winner!111
deedbot-: [Trilema] MiniGame (S.MG), March 2016 Statement - http://trilema.com/2016/minigame-smg-march-2016-statement/
mats: i'll wear my sunday best and see how it goes
BingoBoingo: phf: Wait we wore boy scout uniforms for our auditions?
shinohai: BingoBoingo: << Pile more qntra shares on top of them? <<< since I suck at writing, I don't see that happening.
BingoBoingo: shinohai: practice? Start a blawg to practice writing and then submit newsy things to qntra?
BingoBoingo: You've got to cultivate a habit shinohai
shinohai: bleh
BingoBoingo: What, you write lines in the channel. You aren't illiterate.
shinohai: Certainly not, I find great joy in reading but writing may as well be Chinese water torture for me.
BingoBoingo: So now you are saying you gotta write more to become a stronger person in general
shinohai: I see there is no way shinohai can just donate the shares back to qntra and forget about it all.
shinohai: https://github.com/udala/docforever
asciilifeform: l0l heathen deedbot ?
asciilifeform: aren't there 1,001 of these ?
PeterL: shinohai why not sell them?
BingoBoingo: PeterL: That's what I'm suggesting too, but I'm suggesting he makes a bigger pile to do it with
PeterL: <deedbot-> [Trilema] MiniGame (S.MG), March 2016 Statement - http://trilema.com/2016/minigame-smg-march-2016-statement/ << mircea_popescu shouldn't the shareholder's equity change be -1.x instead of +1.x?
PeterL: actually, looks like player holdings should be a negative change too?
BingoBoingo: https://tallahassee.craigslist.org/bfs/5522847971.html
BingoBoingo: https://i.imgur.com/OuxUtC3.jpg
asciilifeform no longer loads BingoBoingo's jpegs - at least not before eating.
BingoBoingo: lol
BingoBoingo: See shinohai habit can be trained
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: This is a safe one related to liked craigslist lulz
mircea_popescu: mmm this needs some fixing PeterL onesec
PeterL: and I don't think the liabilites add up right?
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2016/minigame-smg-march-2016-statement/ << updated.
mircea_popescu: shinohai> bleh << so then sell them ?
PeterL: S.MG with an earnings of 0.14%, that's better than my savings account
mircea_popescu: ;;calc (1+1.05748966 / 8`775.09816033) ** 12
gribble: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
mircea_popescu: ;;calc (1+1.05748966 / 8775.09816033) ** 12
gribble: 1.00144708241
mircea_popescu: right you are huh.
mircea_popescu: ;;calc (1+(1.05748966+3.43434647-2.33633804) / 8775.09816033) ** 4
gribble: 1.00098291433
mircea_popescu: based on q1.
mircea_popescu: shinohai> I see there is no way shinohai can just donate the shares back to qntra and forget about it all. << you can prolly instruct jurov to sell them and donate proceeds to foundation say.
jurov: unless mod6/ben_vulpes instruct me to keep the shares as intangible property of the foundation... imo not happening with such qty
hanbot: davout http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-first-progress-report#comment-8380
mircea_popescu: hm davout re http://fr.anco.is/2016/so-long-paymium do you actually want to try and wire settlements going forward ? or best close it ?
asciilifeform: http://mail.fsfeurope.org/pipermail/discussion/2016-April/010912.html << l0ltr0n1c
asciilifeform: 'Uncorrectable freedom and security issues on x86 platforms'
asciilifeform: ^ 'palladium' won.
asciilifeform: not actually news, note, to veterans of tmsr
mircea_popescu: sha1.
asciilifeform: heh
asciilifeform: one nitpick: the c201 chromebook he recommends as a potential arm box is a TURD
asciilifeform: it contains evil gpu without which it is unusable, and there is NO known doc for it
mircea_popescu: so this is an absolute defense against any and all accusations of "computer crime" for as long as the hardware involved is post 2009 intel / 2013 amd.
asciilifeform: i have this machine, sweated over it for ages, no useful result.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if 'rule of law' were an actual thing, aha
mircea_popescu: in tmsr court it is.
asciilifeform: otherwise works about as well as the winblowz defense.
mircea_popescu: basically the only actually usable thing in his list is arm
mircea_popescu: im not gonna consider ibm-anything.
asciilifeform: but ftr i discussed the intel and amd 'palladium' engines in detail in the old logz.
asciilifeform: in agonizing detail.
asciilifeform: arm would be usable if there were EVEN ONE documented arm chip available.
asciilifeform: afaik every single on without exception includes 'licensed' crapolade that is documented nowhere
asciilifeform: and not fully reversed.
mircea_popescu: and same is true of bitcoin.\
asciilifeform: at least one can get src for bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: "=== RISCV === While this architecture is extremely limited in performance, price, and performance per watt compared to x86, ARM, or POWER, it is also one of the only fully open source CPU architectures available outside of an FPGA. and may eventually be competitive with MIPS in terms of raw performance. Currently there are no RISCV SoCs in production, however projects such as lowRISC aim to change that: http://www.lowrisc.
mircea_popescu: org "
mircea_popescu: ^is there more substance to this than stargazing ?
asciilifeform: none!
asciilifeform: it is available NOWHERE
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and the "full source" does WHAT ?
mircea_popescu: one "can get full source for x86" also.
mircea_popescu: as he well points out.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: where ?
mircea_popescu: <asciilifeform> at least one can get src for bitcoin.
asciilifeform: no, where do i get 'full source for x86'
mircea_popescu: and where do you get "full source for bitcoin" ?
asciilifeform: briefly back to thread, every other month or so i do an exhaustive survey of commercially-available cpu
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: trb's www
mircea_popescu: incidentally BingoBoingo that email might be worth a qntrization.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: rotor takes you from bare metal (currently x86 and arm but potentially vax or whatever) to bitcoin.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: After I finish latest piece in que digesting email
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the relationship between sane bitcoin source as available on trb www and "bitcoin" is THE SAME as the relation between a sane implementation of tetris and "running tetris"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, it does not. because bitcoin IS NOT SPECIFIED!!11
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ah in that sense yes. but it is STILL an intermediate product, far closer to actual src than binarysoup.
mircea_popescu: so it is closer.
mircea_popescu: and ejaculating on a face is closer to actual reproduction than ejaculating on sugar cubes.
asciilifeform: just as a broken-down toyota in a tow yard is more of 'car' than a rusty ww2 tank sans engine.
mircea_popescu: quite.
asciilifeform: back to thread, briefly, i regularly survey the market for cpu-that-could-bitcoinate
mircea_popescu: jurov how many does he have ? a few hundred should come to something in dollars, is that too micropayment for bitcoin donations ?
deedbot-: [Qntra] BitBet Receiver Issues 2nd Progress Report, Auction Closing April 6th - http://qntra.net/2016/04/bitbet-receiver-issues-2nd-progress-report-auction-closing-april-6th/
asciilifeform: the result - VERY discouraging.
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: l0l saint
mircea_popescu: nice.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Heirarchy ftw
jurov: mircea_popescu: 78
mircea_popescu: oh oh.
asciilifeform: the cpu situation is dire, far more so than anyone here realizes afaik.
mircea_popescu: yeah, because we got into airgapping for lulz and lols.
asciilifeform: i looked far and wide, even turned up, e.g., that renesas still manufactures the super-H (sega!)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: airgap will not help against tivoization.
asciilifeform: nor against tendrils that seek out and 'specifically diddle', e.g, gmp mult.
mircea_popescu: apparently brain-in-jar helps against humanity, why wouldn't it.
asciilifeform: the linked essay speaks for itself, described - for n00bz - precisely why merely cutting off the net pipe does not sanitize a box.
mircea_popescu: a step!!1
asciilifeform: in particular, tivoization means that ~your pc is a nintendo~ with microshit - holding the signing key.
asciilifeform: as in, kernel does not boot unless microshit permits it.
mircea_popescu: also why the fuck does he even have mips on that list, i thought they had their own bs.
mircea_popescu: not to mention there's a whole colonization of amd in the arm space.
punkman: mips is licensed like arm
mircea_popescu: i have nfi why anyone would EVEN COSNIDER doing anything with a usg agent
mircea_popescu: which term includes any and all tax-paying entities there.
mircea_popescu: anyway this pipermail list... when i see all the shitty signatures i get nausea.
asciilifeform: mips is ~100 lines of verilog, if i had to pick an arch we could potentially bake one day, i'd pick that.
asciilifeform: mips ~company~ is a parasite, just like arm co.
mircea_popescu: there is that. but it'd be a self-bake sorta deal.
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: but let's not conflate the two
asciilifeform: ftr cardano cpu is a mips knockoff.
mircea_popescu: anyway. yes amd gave us usable computers for a five-year plan longer than'd have been otherwise possible.
asciilifeform: hey they're still usable!111 just dun buy post-'13 chip.
mircea_popescu: for as long as that lasts.
mircea_popescu: but yes, one thing the republic might consider is a stockpile of proper amd chips
asciilifeform: i just installed spiffy upgrade in january, from circa-'06 to '08 opteronz!
mircea_popescu: the irony is that well... NOT LIKE NEWER CHIPS WILL BE BETTER
mircea_popescu: ie, it may well have been just long enough.
asciilifeform: aha.
mircea_popescu: this plan to stockpile proper chips etc goes hand in hand with a republic-isp, incidentally, becauyse who else to own hardware
mircea_popescu: but... people prefer to sit on ass and wonder "what are the criteria" bla bla.
mircea_popescu: fuck you, how about that, next person who feels the need to ask.
asciilifeform: btw i found that old opteron is being sold surplus by the tonne
mircea_popescu: mhm.
mircea_popescu: and we - by which i mean mostly not me - should be buying, at least by the pound.
asciilifeform: who wants - can find.
asciilifeform buying
asciilifeform: but it would be mega-improvement if folks outside the большая зона were buyin'.
mircea_popescu: i dunno wtf they were thinking putting it in the chip rather than the ram. i guess nobody could have predicted mp kills moore together with gavin.
mircea_popescu: or maybe the azn producers too unruly.
asciilifeform: ram is commoditized.
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: 5+ firms.
asciilifeform: all but 1 - asia
mircea_popescu: yet another angle that shows the fundamental link between "intellectual property" and both the usg\s continued claims to financial power as well as the continued infestation of the free world.
asciilifeform: if it were only that!
mircea_popescu: what else, the army ?
mircea_popescu: nah, it's becoming apparent to me that the WTC that needs bombing is exactly that.
midnightmagic: memory-hard POW wasn't really researched well i don't think back when bitcoin was invented.
mod6: (17:57) <+mircea_popescu> shinohai> I see there is no way shinohai can just donate the shares back to qntra and forget about it all. << you can prolly instruct jurov to sell them and donate proceeds to foundation say. << this is exactly the correct approach. this way we take a btc donation (tyvm!) and we continue to only hold M1
midnightmagic: but there's a neat possible 20% algorithmic improvement in bitcoin mining that was just released that might eat bitfury/et al lunch.
mircea_popescu: midnightmagic ie burned.
midnightmagic: patent-pending™
mircea_popescu: anyway, i'd say the concept of pow was not well researched altogether, at that point.
mircea_popescu: in spite of billions spent on "researchers" that had apparently so many better things to do.
mod6: eh M0 i guess
mod6: w/e btc only :] whatever that represents.
mircea_popescu: :p
mod6: herp to the derp mod6
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the reason i said 'not only intellectual property' is that cn is happy to piss on american patents but STILL continues to churn out straight knockoffs of usg crud
asciilifeform: as does ru
asciilifeform: because 'cheap'
mircea_popescu: myeah.
asciilifeform: same reason the idiots run winblowz
mircea_popescu: no, because dumb. and "Science". and blabla.
asciilifeform: (nearly UNIVERSAL in orc world)
jurov: aint no high finance without derivatives of bundled derivatives!
mod6: 'imitation is the highest form of compliment'
asciilifeform: what 'science'. 'here's a copy of xp from bazar'
mircea_popescu: heck, the bulgarians spent a millenium trying to immitate byzantine ridiculousness.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "science" as the metaphysical concept. it's not what you and i mean by the proper term.
asciilifeform: mr mold's scientocracy ?
mircea_popescu: what a ustard thinks "science" is has a lot to do with what basil ii bulgaroktonos thought god was.
mircea_popescu: not even.
asciilifeform: ah, then it!
mircea_popescu: mno, we're not discussing a religion, but a theology.
mod6: jurov: haha
mod6 sells to open
shinohai: >.>
mod6: :D
mod6: shinohai, what's the word on the street?
mod6: we get a log yet/
shinohai: Same shit, different day.
ben_vulpes: what is this optimization?
mod6: i hear you there. fuck, still snowing in my sector.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: i'ma guess it was some variant of satcoin
mircea_popescu: ;;google asicboost
gribble: AsicBoost design promises 20% faster Bitcoin mining | Bitcoin Forum: <https://bitco.in/forum/threads/asicboost-design-promises-20-faster-bitcoin-mining.1061/>; GTX 970 FTW Users - Post Your ASIC and Boost Clocks! - EVGA Forums: <http://forums.evga.com/GTX-970-FTW-Users-Post-Your-ASIC-and-Boost-Clocks-m2261389.aspx>; 980 Ti Overclock Thread : nvidia - Reddit: (1 more message)
asciilifeform: http://dpaste.com/3RYGC5Y
asciilifeform: ^ de-pdfized
asciilifeform: this is pretty minor.
shinohai: It' a nice balmy 75 degrees here today, and I sit outside on my patio to irc.
asciilifeform: the kind of thing i assumed the existing producers HAD IN 2012
asciilifeform: omfgh
ben_vulpes: so basically someone who understands how asics work sat down and thought about it for half a second
asciilifeform: the tardz.
ben_vulpes: 2012 miners are still just early adopters.
ben_vulpes: many gains yet to be wrung.
asciilifeform: who recalls the discussion of muller gate ?
asciilifeform: notice, nobody has produced CLOCKLESS miner
asciilifeform: even though it would be up to 100x boost per-watt
mircea_popescu: hey, they have what they have.
mod6: the pics of the rigs these guys had of their GPU farms kill me
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i dun see s.nsa patent-pending anything ?
asciilifeform: (but omfg!111 how can we produce clockless chip!111 synopsys corp dun sell a cad for it!11)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what sort of tard does one need to be to blow 50kus on patent ?
asciilifeform: (this does not include cost of litigating, either.)
mircea_popescu: perhaps focusing on the wrong side of that question./
asciilifeform: patents in modern world are 100% scamola.
mod6: i had this dream lastnight that alf called me and wanted to tell me about this new method of processing... but i couldn't hear him very well as I was going through this tunnel.
asciilifeform: l0l
mod6: he was going to do this V like thing where each op has a corresponding hash, and at the end of all the ops, the hashes had to match or the cpu wouldn't execute the thing...
mircea_popescu: lol sounds pr0mising
mod6: hahaha.
asciilifeform: all you gotta do is not branch!1111
mod6: i was like WOAH.jpg
mod6: yeah, basically.
mircea_popescu: incidentally - a pow update without homomorphism involved ?!
mircea_popescu: sounds like it'll have to be redone.
asciilifeform: l0l!!
deedbot-: [Qntra] Raptor Engineering Laments Dire State Of x86 And CPU Industry At Large - http://qntra.net/2016/04/raptor-engineering-laments-dire-state-of-x86-and-cpu-industry-at-large/
asciilifeform: briefly returning to the opterons, unfortunately they are quite useless alone, they must be stockpiled with ~period mb~
asciilifeform: socket was changed, they cannot be used with recent boards
asciilifeform: (not only socket, but northbridge, differs)
asciilifeform: nor will ddr2 dram remain available for long, i suspect
asciilifeform: whole shebang is weak.
BingoBoingo: The AMD E350 'Bobcat' is still frequently available, often soldered into MB
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: 'pcengines' sells g-series (well-documented, blobless 'coreboot', etc.) chipset boards, see old logz
asciilifeform: but ~this won't last long~
asciilifeform: for all i know they are already shipping evil chip.
BingoBoingo: BUT E350 haz GPU!!!
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: documented gpu.
mod6: is there anything to my wack-o dream? could a method be developed to have signed stack frames that the cpu would only execute up successful validation? would this even be worthwhile? probably not, a guy can still probably grab the IP and point it where he likes. probably would have to have some sort of pipeline (is this a thing?) that would make sure that there was valid checksum (from signature) held in
mod6: a register before executing the next op.
asciilifeform: mod6: branches
deedbot hands you a broomstick.
mod6 hands deedbot an ice-cream cone
asciilifeform: mod6: if you already know the output, sign ~that~
asciilifeform: what'd be the point of signing program states ?
asciilifeform: i dun get it
mod6: i dunno, on some weird paranoia tangent of trying to "only execute what alf said was good."
asciilifeform: in that case one signs an input.
mod6: you know what i'm trying to say?
mod6: ok
mircea_popescu: mod6 at best your dream sounds like a bizarro curtis yarvin scheme
asciilifeform: but in all cases, you want to sign things that are at least in principle human-readable
mircea_popescu: that sort of thing only "works" if patently nonsensical, as per the original.
mircea_popescu: bizarro dun work
asciilifeform: otherwise the scheme devolves into tivo.
mod6: ah.
mod6: was weird. maybe i took the acid.
asciilifeform: hey it makes more sense than my dream ! (see log)
mircea_popescu: pwnm (tm) thought your dream is eerily accurate and true to life.
asciilifeform: l0l
mod6: heheh. i'll have to scroll back.
mod6: oh do i understand you correctly on the branching problem -- if the stackframes are signed, how will i know (in advance) which address to jump to if all addresses are assigned at run time?
mod6: if not, maybe a word or 6 on what you're getting at there.
mircea_popescu: what he was talking about was that in all fpga/asic designs, the branches are the time waster / heat dissipater
mircea_popescu: the less branching your algo, the better.
asciilifeform: no
mod6: oh. right, can't you avoid them with bitwise ops?
mircea_popescu: no ?
asciilifeform: what i was talking about is that branching is why you can't sign program state, because of combinatorial explosion.
mircea_popescu: aok.
asciilifeform: was in re mod6's dream machine
mod6: right, ok.
mod6: The other technique is to write programs without branches, or with fewer branches, typically using bitwise operations instead. [1] [Knuth, Donald (2008). The Art of Computer Programming. Volume 4, Pre-fascicle 1A (Revision 6 ed.). pp. 48-49.]
mod6: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branch_%28computer_science%29
mod6: they're lying to me
asciilifeform: there is some confusion in the literature because certain sly operators would have you believe that - e.g., a conditional MOV - is not a branch.
asciilifeform: whereas in mathematical fact, it is.
mircea_popescu: mod6 my no was re his comment not yours.
mod6: oh oh, we're ourselves on two seperate branches of conversation.
mod6: my bad.
mircea_popescu: lol
mod6: asciilifeform: intresting though.
asciilifeform: incidentally, the 'branch is wasteful' thing taught in school has to do entirely with caches, and ergo is not relevant in a flat memory (e.g., the inside of a miner)
asciilifeform: and is only really meaningful for a general-purpose cpu, the concept is not even defined re something like a miner
mircea_popescu: hm
mircea_popescu: i guess so huh.
mircea_popescu: hence all the branch prediction etc bs
asciilifeform: though to some extent space locality is also built into drams as we know them
asciilifeform: (they come with a 'burst mode' where the counter auto-increments, so you don't waste time loading a next addr)
asciilifeform: oh and ftr i fucking hate dram
asciilifeform: and wish it to die.
midnightmagic: it *can* be meaningful in terms of signal propagation and logic locality.
asciilifeform: dram is how we get wonders such as 'rowhammer', but also bits that rot from not only cosmic ray but the background gamme of impurities in ITSELF, etc
midnightmagic: but.. i mean insigificantly for mining purposes..
asciilifeform: and is overall a terrifically cheapo hack
asciilifeform: cray (when s. cray was alive!) used sram main memories for a reason.
asciilifeform: dram is a classic 'here take this turd, it is cylindrical just like your old sausage but SO MUCH CHEAPER!1111 moar accessible!111'
mircea_popescu is sadly not versed enough to comment.
mod6: asciilifeform had a interesting dream too haha.
mod6: back when that was a thing it probably was more affordable for Mr. Luser. What about these days?
asciilifeform: mod6: far worse today actually
asciilifeform: mod6: sram more or less stood still for 20y.
mod6: Yeah, kinda looks like it. (Was just taking a peek there...)
asciilifeform: BECAUSE in '90s it was not loser-friendly costwise.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu and other n00bz : http://image.slidesharecdn.com/dram-140915070657-phpapp01/95/dram-6-638.jpg?cb=1410764912
asciilifeform: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1neq2KSL4SE/TIIQ2LlQ0LI/AAAAAAAAAN0/O9iabShK8b8/s1600/sram+and+dram.png << or this
mod6: "and refresh after read."
asciilifeform: sram is a STABLE system.
asciilifeform: dram is not.
asciilifeform: it is merely a grid of capacitors.
mod6: cool pic.
asciilifeform: sram cell is ~actually~ bistable.
mod6: so can actually, cleanly, be dibiased?
mod6: *debiased
asciilifeform: $up Humpty
deedbot: Humpty voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: "higher cost per bit" is significant tho. it's either two capacitors, or two capacitors + two diodes
mircea_popescu: this is more-than-triple
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it isn't as if the parts have fixed cost ~each~
mircea_popescu: how not ?
mircea_popescu: there is a "smallest printed diode"
asciilifeform: well in the sense of taking up die space - yes, cost.
mod6: there has got to be an individual cost, but it's probably rolled up into single "unit" of storage.
mircea_popescu: what other sense ?
asciilifeform: my point was that, as with all cheapolade, many costs are ~externalized~.
mod6: s/unit/cell/
mircea_popescu: you can either have this chip be 256 mb or 4gb. what do you prefer.
asciilifeform: e.g., now you need a dram controller somewhere.
asciilifeform: and you live with bit rot.
mircea_popescu: you live with bit rot anyway.
asciilifeform: nope.
mircea_popescu: through a similar decision process as you propose, rats are not superior to cockroaches
mircea_popescu: "has circulatory system, can leak, needs oxygen"
mod6: what does alf's dream turing machine look like?
asciilifeform: vastly incommeasurable rates of bit rot.
mircea_popescu: but bit rot nevertheless.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: only in the sense that alligator bite is same as mouse.
mircea_popescu: right. exactly in that sense. you'll have to feed it anyway./
mircea_popescu: can't count "doesn't need food" as a sales point.
asciilifeform: except that dram ~demands~ the controller, and it HAS to meet the timing spec 100% of the time, or it loses bits.
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: ergo is not usable with arbitrarily slow driving system.
mircea_popescu: hey, i have no argument with the "dram is a pain in the ass to do hands on stuff to"
asciilifeform: so it drags 'modernity' in with it.
mircea_popescu: right.
mircea_popescu: tho honestly a) i see no difference between "modernity" and "lazy stupidity" ; b) i see no clear reason high clock speeds are necessarily related to stupidity.
mircea_popescu: obvious why they're counter-lazy, yes.
shinohai: "Tor and Cloudflare continue to bicker over whose implementation is more broken" http://www.techtimes.com/articles/146920/20160404/tor-and-cloudflare-hurl-accusations-about-malicious-requests-flawed-methodology-at-each-other.htm
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they are related strictly in the sense where we are likely to get 1980s fabbing capability long before 'modern', but also in the sense where we might have to use fpga or even discrete logic elements before this is all through
mircea_popescu: heh.
mircea_popescu: that your next qntra shinohai ?
shinohai wonders why everyone wants him writing for qntra.
mircea_popescu: konspiraci!
trinque: lol, ok, found a bug
phf: ok, logs are at a reasonable point, going to go for food and walk and then do a deploy
trinque: deedbot will be back in a moment
phf: right now the switch over between t-a and b-a happens at log entry 1440677, which is "mircea_popescu: and so, this is the end for this particular irc channel as a venue for tmsr. ..."
mircea_popescu: works.
mircea_popescu: phf i dun recall what you answered, will i be able to update log references in trilema with a single sql statement ?
phf: yes, though not tonight
phf: i'm going to deploy to the same machine as btcbase, so the log url is going to be btcbase.org/log/
phf: replacing http://log.bitcoin-assets.com with http://btcbase.org/log/ will work as long as i add ?date=dd-mm-yyyy handler
phf: old ids are obviously preserved
mircea_popescu: win
asciilifeform: neato!
phf: after 1440677 log continues with t-a entries, and as of right now the next t-a entry is 1440678 "pete_dushenski: http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/03/serious-question-can-a-parrot-act-as-a-witness-in-court.html << computers are cheaper than women, but perhaps not cheaper than parrots" :D
phf: which is just immediately next t-a message by timestamp
trinque: deedbot- http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/11a0379d-e0f4-4bf3-bac4-6b1650d4af66/
deedbot-: accepted: 1
mircea_popescu: that worx.
mircea_popescu: earliest it could possibly start would be Mar 24 12:33:11 <BingoBoingo> http://qntra.net/2016/03/microsoft-left-impaired-ai-to-suffer-twitter-humiliation/
ben_vulpes: http://skarnet.org/poweredby.html << more weirdos
mircea_popescu: but for the sake of keeping things simple...
mircea_popescu: phf is there an equiv to say "from:mircea" ?
phf: no, but i can add that, search is entirely reworked, since it's essentially grep by text only, so i'll have to refine it bit by bit anyway
mircea_popescu: kk.
mircea_popescu: afair it was the only trim i consistently used.
mircea_popescu: fwiw, mthreat, the guy who was providing the search, actually did that as part of a start-up that got sold off or spun off or w/e they do.
mircea_popescu: providing search for corporate clients. if you get yours working as well as his, perhaps can be arsed to market it.
phf: haslink is actually only ever mentioned 8 times in log
mircea_popescu: but for instance it returns iirc 1/4mn hits for "from:mircea" in miliseconds.
mircea_popescu: logging teh forum happens to be a field where a lot of interesting things can be done. right off the top of head : you familiar with pisg ? ; something like an interaction graph based on namecalling may be interesting.
mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2012/o-luna-de-trilema-prin-ochii-lu-gribble/ << 2012 #trilema via pisg provided by gribble.
phf: yeah, there are some very obvious stats that can be ran, including wot analysis, who speaks to whom, frequencies, etc.
mircea_popescu: yeah.
BingoBoingo: davout: apparently you have fans http://qntra.net/2016/04/bitbet-receiver-issues-2nd-progress-report-auction-closing-april-6th/#comment-50459
mircea_popescu: check yourself out pete_dushenski you get the #trilema log global first!
trinque: $up pete_dushenski
deedbot: pete_dushenski voiced for 30 minutes.
trinque: I'm fixing some issue with gpg that's messing up $up
pete_dushenski: mircea_popescu: we'll see if this 15 minutes of fame lasts longer than my stint as a lord ;)
trinque: pete_dushenski: try teh $up again
pete_dushenski: is #tmsr taken btw ?
BingoBoingo: lol
BingoBoingo: kako as it
trinque: pete_dushenski: whitespace !?!?!?!?
trinque: phf: how do I keep my fasl from being out of sync with changes to the lisp ?
trinque: I must have filthy python habits, thought it'd know when the lisp was written later
trinque does it one more time, for science.
mircea_popescu: ;;google hit me baby one more time
gribble: ...Baby One More Time (song) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...Baby_One_More_Time_(song)>; Britney Spears - ...Baby One More Time - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-u5WLJ9Yk4>; Britney Spears' 'Hit Me Baby, One More Time' True Meaning Has ...: <http://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/pop-shop/6753845/hit-me-baby-one-more-time- (1 more message)
mircea_popescu: i have nfi what he was thinking to do that, but w/e.
pete_dushenski: speaking of vagabond romanii, what is it about that little country that makes it produce such sharp-edged hitmen with heads for numbers ? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/dec/09/edward-luttwak-machiavelli-of-maryland
pete_dushenski: trb related : has anyone else had bizarre 'balance' behaviour ? i'm seeing double over here.
pete_dushenski: inb4 stan makes his token comment about the 'fundamental retardation of accounts, which must die (tm) (r)'
mircea_popescu: balance never really worked right, did it.
trinque: phf: eh nevermind, found a typo :p
mircea_popescu: pete_dushenski typically crud like that goes for a few hundred bucks, and is a counter-signal.
trinque: pete_dushenski: that's what I was talking about re: -lows
pete_dushenski: then a 'listunspent' would seem a useful call function to bring to trb (it was in 0.7). unless there are other call functions that already do the same thing ?
trinque: sometimes I saw double, sometimes zero, sometimes negative by amount of fee
pete_dushenski: trinque: gotcha
asciilifeform: pete_dushenski: luttwak is known to all, e.g., his 'coup - practical handbook'
pete_dushenski: so i've now learned as well
trinque: yeh, wallet is unusable without this
pete_dushenski: i have some more fiddling to do with trb it seems.
pete_dushenski: sorry for the dine n dash. bbl.
mike_c: thanks deedbot. hopefully you get static, scriptable challenge URLs soon!
mircea_popescu: 2nd guy who wants this huh
mike_c: manual labor is for the birds
mircea_popescu: you know the joke with the jews ?
mike_c: there's only one?
mircea_popescu: that's the other joke with the jews :D
mike_c: ah. no, i don't know this one
mike_c: unless this is the collecting acorns thing
ben_vulpes: mike_c: a bouncer is ~same work as scripting auth
mircea_popescu: Ștrul&Ițic taking a shit
mircea_popescu: "hey Ițic, do you suppose this is work, what we're doing ?"
mircea_popescu: "nah, we'd have hired someone"
ben_vulpes: hahaha
mike_c: :) I like it.
ben_vulpes laughing out loud on the shop floor
mircea_popescu: >D
mike_c: and I don't know about bouncer = script.. curl | gpg -d is pretty easy
mircea_popescu: incidentally, i don't suppose anyoen read Ițic Ștrul, Dezertor (Isaac Trouble, Deserter) ?
mircea_popescu: not a bad short, sorta more dramatic svejk
mircea_popescu: and to honor alf's memory of the siguranța statului : Ițic calls the ro SS. "hey, Ștrul has some wood" "so what of it ?" "he drilled it and hid jewels, diamonds, dollars and probably ammunition from his brother in america"
mircea_popescu: then he calls Ștrul. "hey, i sent over some guys to cut up your wood" "who ?" "same guys you sent last month to dig my garden"
ben_vulpes: mike_c: ssh -t $BOUNCER tmux attach
mike_c: sure, once you figure out the mess that is znc
ben_vulpes: yeah don't do that
ben_vulpes: weechatup BRO
shinohai: ^ weechat ftw
mike_c: hm. ok, I'll check that out
mike_c: thanks
ben_vulpes: ftr it has been utterly rock solid for me since...i don't even remember.
ben_vulpes: the last time i fucked with bouncers, let's say.
trinque: automating auth might be evil, just sayin.
asciilifeform: what's wrong with znc ?
mike_c: why evil. as long as I have to type in my passphrase..
mike_c: and znc I have tried and failed with in the past. possibly just user stupidity.
asciilifeform: worx great here.
asciilifeform: and just say no to auto-authing!111
mike_c: unless you are sneaker-netting I don't see how making me go to a different URL everytime helps anything
ben_vulpes: mike_c: requires server-side complexity to handle batched ratings
ben_vulpes: or different paths for rating/authing
mircea_popescu: oh ?
ben_vulpes has no actual idea how trinque's written the thing, only making inferences.
ben_vulpes: does look from here as though there's some key from a request to the action to be performed in the OTP url.
mike_c: and a 'last' endpoint could just grab.. the last one. But whatever, not huge thing. it works.
ben_vulpes: which makes batching trivial. "does this key match something in the DB?"
mircea_popescu: seems necessarily it'd be just one sql request away
ben_vulpes: anyways, works.
mircea_popescu: $up eisenbahnwagen
deedbot: eisenbahnwagen voiced for 30 minutes.
mircea_popescu: http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/04/david_fry_stands_to_make_unusu.html << in other lulz.
mircea_popescu: judge fears redditard may not be safe outside of jail.
mircea_popescu: http://www.oregonlive.com/oregon-standoff/2016/03/pete_santilli_to_ask_court_to.html << same rag, further driving the alf case that the "freedom fighters" are uniformly retarded.