phf: mrottenkolber: unfortunately there seems to be no way to enforce security in git, no way to enable some always_gnupg flag, nor is there a mechanism to add default arguments to some builtin commands.
phf: nor is there an easy way to answer "what was signed" question, short of reading source. you just have to assume that right bits go in, and that nobody's going to change what bits go in in future releases, etc.
ben_vulpes: pretty good example of the "promise" end of the spectrum.
phf: there's commit.gpgsign, but i don't see anything for --verify-signatures
phf: suggested solutions include writing update hooks, that in turn involve plenty of goo' ol' foo=$(bar|sed|awk)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4131 @ 0.00042201 = 1.7433 BTC [+] {2}
gernika: I have a friend who may have found a valid use for 3d printers: he's built 4 of them in his garage and uses them to prototype electronic toy parts.
gernika: aparently also uses random items such as various tupperware containers.
ben_vulpes: why would you put food in that plastic
gernika: so you can forget about it while it rots in the refrigerator?
mircea_popescu: it's actually a pretty serious health risk. the plasticisers / other treatments that make the 3d feedstock behave sufficiently like ink are all items of concern in food chain.
ben_vulpes: yech
ben_vulpes: in other news, i finally put a tv in the conference room and it is now apparently the dedicated "5 hours of rocket explosions on a loop" device
mircea_popescu: incidentally : the ancient myths of "person-in-construction" have a practical backing in the roman practice of using fat and sometimes blood as a plasticizer in concrete.
mircea_popescu: it's a hugely interesting topic, this.
mircea_popescu: strength of concrete is inverse to the added water, up to a point, but that makes it hard to work.
mircea_popescu: and in other news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/5d970ed60a915e5f9456ce72372542f8/tumblr_mpzy6dfGsu1rzjdvqo1_1280.jpg
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1RjvfhE )
mrottenkolber: why does assbot echo bit.ly links? seems redundant
mircea_popescu: so you don't leak your ip by visiting links ; so you archive their contents if you want to.
mod6: thanks for the link alf
phf: so here's a definitive answer the question "gpg what you sign" http://paste.lisp.org/display/311222
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1RyjOrS )
phf: basically some equivalent of "tree 182073587b70313f13678c6e1389cb6c94dd3c69\nauthor foo <foo> 1458691972 -0400\ncommitter foo <foo> 1458691972 -0400\n commit message ... "
mircea_popescu: is this a git extension ?
phf: nah, above paste is a hack that repeats the steps that git goes through in order to verify a signature on a commit (as seen here https://github.com/git/git/blob/f02fbc4f9433937ee0463d0342d6d7d97e1f6f1e/commit.c#L1124), and purpose is to answer the question "wtf does git sign"
assbot: git/commit.c at f02fbc4f9433937ee0463d0342d6d7d97e1f6f1e · git/git · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ryk9KY )
mircea_popescu: a ok
mrottenkolber: So I learned today that git does't use sha1 as I thought, but its own git-hash-object
mrottenkolber: Which is probably less cryptographically “secure” as sha1 (wild guess)
mrottenkolber: wait nvm
mrottenkolber: oh its late, it uses sha1 obviously but not on plain files >.>
asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: there are threads in the logs re: poor hygiene of git.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438202 << somebody wake up diametric and his 11 (?) handmade 3d printerz☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 00:23:16; gernika: I have a friend who may have found a valid use for 3d printers: he's built 4 of them in his garage and uses them to prototype electronic toy parts.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438206 << iirc most folks print with abs.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 00:31:03; mircea_popescu: it's actually a pretty serious health risk. the plasticisers / other treatments that make the 3d feedstock behave sufficiently like ink are all items of concern in food chain.
asciilifeform: same thing of which your keyboard (if it is any good) is made.
mircea_popescu: keyboard is already set ; and chock-full of phtalates when new.
mod6: boy oh boy. looks like all you can hope for with Ada and issuing system commands is to redirect the output to a file, and the read the file.
mod6: s/the/then/
asciilifeform: abs is not thermosetting
mircea_popescu: orly ?
mrottenkolber: asciilifeform: what do you mean by hygiene?
asciilifeform: mod6: a proper vtron won't call out to shell
mod6: gpg libs give me ulcers
asciilifeform: mod6: there are no libs
asciilifeform: mod6: correct vtron will exponentiate inside itself.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: abs melts and cools, and melts again, etc. this is why 3d printer is even a thing
mod6: well, i guess i can appreciate that. i was simply going to write a V in Ada as a way to learn Ada.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: no phthalate in abs
asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: hygiene is a broad concept, but it starts with excluding known filth
asciilifeform: and proceeds to throwing out the vaguely filthy and the contaminated-by-contact
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438197 << illustration of what bad hygiene looks like☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 00:04:06; phf: nor is there an easy way to answer "what was signed" question, short of reading source. you just have to assume that right bits go in, and that nobody's going to change what bits go in in future releases, etc.
asciilifeform: more broadly, i have nfi what goes inside a '.git' directory, and the effort required to understand it is substantial
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform iirc abs is the more expensive sort of ink.
asciilifeform: (~understand~ meaning FULLY, as in - ~all~ edge cases)
mrottenkolber: I can recommend “Git from the bottom up”, git at its core is actually quite... minimalistic.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the other popular feedstock is pla, which is made of corn exhaust
asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: how long is the git source and ALL dependencies.
asciilifeform: that is what i am speaking of, when i say 'understand'
mrottenkolber: and it was kind of obvious that it signs the commit object, I mean what else?
mircea_popescu: i dunno why i thought it's mostly pvc. seems not.
asciilifeform: so that'd be a hash of a hash ?
trinque: mrottenkolber: behind the words one knows there can be an expanse of rusty gears and dirty secrets
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: wtf, nobody prints pvc, good way to gasenwagen
asciilifeform: (pvc iirc releases hcl, in a room where it has been burned, electronics slowly rot away and must be written off)
mircea_popescu: well, all burned plastics release something.
mircea_popescu: abs iirc releases hcn.
mrottenkolber: asciilifeform: I hash of some metadata and a hash of tons of hashes of tns of hashes lol
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it does.
trinque: mrottenkolber: consider that as specified the total source code involved in a vtron can *decrease* drastically from here.
mircea_popescu: anyway. apparently all sorts of thing OTHER than polycarbonate are #7 now.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: but in either case 3d printer, unless catastrophically miscalibrated, does not ignite
mircea_popescu: well done idjits for making a mess of things.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it is, more or less, a 'glue gun on wheels'
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: they installed one at $rupturefarm a few days ago, i still can't quite figure out why, thing is huge
mrottenkolber: good night guys
mrottenkolber: see you around
phf: mrottenkolber: things are always obvious until someone does the work discovery and then it's "who could've predicted"
mircea_popescu: deedbot- http://dpaste.com/3KRPFFE.txt
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1RymTbh )
deedbot-: accepted: 1
mircea_popescu: davout ^ you're on.
diametric: asciilifeform: most people use pla. it's a lot easier to deal with. abs requires higher temps and a heated bed. but recently there are a lot of people printing with petg, and various composites. i just saw some "ironfill", a blend of iron powder and pla.
mircea_popescu: aha!
mircea_popescu: diametric so what's the toxicity profile like, for the activity broadly speaking ?
diametric: about the same as walking around a major city i imagine.
diametric: theres a lot of talk about ufps
mircea_popescu: ic
diametric: but not a lot of peer reviewed evidence of any real danger
asciilifeform: congrats davout !
asciilifeform: welcome back to planet of civilization, diametric !
diametric: i lurk
diametric: mircea_popescu: i'll let you know if i develop popcorn lung
mircea_popescu: kk!
mircea_popescu: twas in my head closer to "you know, printer in 1930" than "you know, starbux barrista"
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i think modern baseline is close to 'printer in 1930'
mircea_popescu: also possibru
asciilifeform: somewhere between that and 'match girl'
asciilifeform: diametric: ironfill sounds interesting, can you steer it magnetically ?
diametric: absolutely
diametric: asciilifeform: https://www.matterhackers.com/3d-printer-filament-compare#composite-filament
assbot: 3D Printer Filament Comparison | MatterHackers ... ( http://bit.ly/1RynlGC )
asciilifeform: the ceramic filament looks appealing, one could print molds and pour, e.g., al
diametric: asciilifeform: its funny you bring up 3d printing, i just returned from the midwest reprap festival
asciilifeform: neato!
asciilifeform: any groundbreaking advances there ?
diametric: some interesting vat related stuff on the sla side
diametric: picked myself up a flex vat
asciilifeform: the thing with the projector and photosensitive gel ?
diametric: basically the vat for curing the SLA layers on is flexible, so when the print moves up a layer, the whole vat deforms in order to overcome the van der waals effect
diametric: yeah
asciilifeform: so looks something like the accordion from old daguerrotype camera ?
mircea_popescu: more like a ball with inserts nah ?
diametric: nah the vat is made out of a thin layer of FEP, so its like a clear rubber
diametric: http://www.muve3d.net/press/product/flexvat/
assbot: FlexVat – Standard and Large | ... ( http://bit.ly/1WH3HGy )
diametric: my buddy at seemecnc gave me one for free
asciilifeform: hm, that looks like just a frame ?
asciilifeform: where is the rubber
diametric: zoom in
diametric: its the clear thing held down by the frame
diametric: thats actually not the one i got, hangon.
diametric: http://www.seemecnc.com/products/universal-flexible-resin-vat-reservoir-for-diy-resin-printers
assbot: Universal Flexible Resin Vat Reservoir for DIY resin printers – SeeMeCNC ... ( http://bit.ly/1WH3Mdf )
diametric: its sandwiched in the frame
diametric: a thin sheet of FEP
asciilifeform: ah hm
mircea_popescu: but in other news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/887be64336a8812a974cba1fbd93e008/tumblr_nid02tKqmo1rmrwgqo1_1280.jpg
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1RynTMO )
asciilifeform: l0l!
asciilifeform: i'm actually mildly surprised that mircea_popescu doesn't have a 3d printer somewhere
asciilifeform: and making custom butt plugs, gags, to 5% accuracy
mircea_popescu: good buttplugs are surgical steel ; good gags cured leather etc.
asciilifeform: ah hm.
diametric: my favorite is still the giant thermochromatic cock
mircea_popescu: really, little use for plastic in life.
asciilifeform: then lathe!
asciilifeform: and tanning shop.
mircea_popescu: speaking of van der waals forces, apparently they've finally managed to make the spiderman suit.
mircea_popescu: http://www.darpa.mil/program/z-man
assbot: Z-Man ... ( http://bit.ly/1RypFxg )
mircea_popescu: trinque ^
trinque: mircea_popescu: ty
mircea_popescu: nono, ty.
deedbot-: [Qntra] BitBet Receiver Hired - http://qntra.net/2016/03/bitbet-receiver-hired/
BingoBoingo: ;;bc,stats
gribble: Current Blocks: {"blockcount":403880} | Current Difficulty: 1.6549683511822635E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: None | Next Difficulty In: None blocks | Next Difficulty In About: None | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
BingoBoingo: ;;nethash
gribble: 1178960569.18
BingoBoingo: ;;8ball
gribble: About as likely as pigs flying.
mircea_popescu: nice BingoBoingo
BingoBoingo: ty
BingoBoingo: It's nice to be able to cover good news in the republic, its been a rough month for that.
mircea_popescu: word.
BingoBoingo: https://i.sli.mg/UYEj0B.png
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1q1COmi )
BingoBoingo: ^ Ubuntu on stage
BingoBoingo: In related news, typical fiat management http://www.wvgazettemail.com/news/20160321/former-fayette-animal-shelter-director-arrested
assbot: Charleston Gazette-Mail | Former Fayette animal shelter director arrested ... ( http://bit.ly/1q1DjNc )
BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/C0c43
davout: https://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#c5888 <<< guy has a point
assbot: BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match :: 80.22 B (54%) on Yes, 68.59 B (46%) on No | closed 2 weeks 9 hours ago ... ( http://bit.ly/22vqNHi )
davout: basically is saying that one of the addresses included in the double payout got paid twice ~11 btc and has over 50 btc in pending bet payouts
davout: more generally, it seems an important thing to me that bettor claims should be adjusted by the existence of a a previous double-payout, if any
punkman: davout, makes sense
punkman: are you gonna look for older double-payouts too?
davout: probably not
davout: if bitbet made it until now without this problem, it's probably a good indicator that such a thing never happened before
punkman: pretty sure it did, or maybe I'm remembering double-dividends
davout: I'm going to check that everything that was paid against currently unpaid/unresolved/open bets matches the cash mp sent me, and if so there won't really be a point in checking that
davout: double-dividends is something that's much easier to fix :)
davout: it's not a bug, it's a feature: Dividends-In-Advance(tm)(r)!!1
punkman: http://www.redox-os.org/
assbot: Redox - Your Next(Gen) OS ... ( http://bit.ly/1S5AWj0 )
danielpbarron: sucks for bettors who reused addresses, huh
davout: danielpbarron: howso?
davout: some address 1foo got double-paid by X btc
davout: same address has unpaid winnings for Y btc
davout: actual payable claim would be Y - (X/2)
danielpbarron: i get it, but if 1foo had never used that address for payout again, you'd never know which address to withhold from
BingoBoingo: Aha, I knew it would happen, but I didn't know it would happen this early. The reciever is now burdened with CHOICE.
davout: oic what you mean, i misunderstood
BingoBoingo: http://www.stltoday.com/news/traffic/along-for-the-ride/set-ablaze-now-stolen-barrel-bob-modot-s-safety-mascot/article_dcc8a9d6-7081-500a-9b17-e8ad0bad4f33.html
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438373 << fuck shitlangs and fuck i-could-have-made-anything-but-i-made-another-unix . with a red hot poker.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 10:24:47; punkman: http://www.redox-os.org/
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438363 << interesting how none of these folks ever considered sending the doubled coin back... but they whine, whine, about delay!☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 09:32:38; davout: basically is saying that one of the addresses included in the double payout got paid twice ~11 btc and has over 50 btc in pending bet payouts
danielpbarron: why should anyone send coin back? as far as they should be concerned the extra payment had nothing to do with bitbet
asciilifeform: actually i have nfi, did bbet use a published addr for pays?
punkman: asciilifeform: no
asciilifeform: and in any case it was pretty clear that it was double send, mircea_popescu published the tx
asciilifeform: so this excuse was not available, danielpbarron
asciilifeform: and yes, they had no obligation to send it back, etc. but if they had, there would be no reactor fire, and a still-operating bbet. that isn't about to be auctioned off to spammerz.
punkman: /me bids 1 bitcoin for bitbet.us
danielpbarron isn't so sure that would have been the case
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: how's that
danielpbarron: it was a matter of principle, not so much a lack of money
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: the trigger was the money.
BingoBoingo: Way to repay bitbet was crystal clear too. Propose 1+1=2 and bet on no.
danielpbarron: or just send into any closed bet
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: nonsense, folks would bet on yes and win. danielpbarron has it.
danielpbarron: heh i'd prolly have bet on yes lol
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: But the 0-conf bet would have been wrong before approval. 0-conf Bets made the BitBet mixer go around
BingoBoingo: ;;later tell pete_dushenski https://archive.is/P3KBR
gribble: The operation succeeded.
davout: a diligent commenter did the math, the actual shortfall seems to be 4.37385306 btc -> https://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#c5892
assbot: BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match :: 80.22 B (54%) on Yes, 68.59 B (46%) on No | closed 2 weeks 12 hours ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1Rg7ydD )
asciilifeform saw this, hence the 'motherfuckers ~could~ have snt back' observation
BingoBoingo: https://archive.is/O9zoN
punkman: davout, what's gonna happen with bbet shares?
davout: punkman: the idea of a receivership is that you sell assets, use the cash to pay outstanding claims, the rest, if any, goes to shareholder
davout: *shareholders
davout: and regarding S.BBET specifically there's 3.2 (a) reading "The representatives of BitBet have elected to divide BitBet into 10`000`000 (ten million) equal non-voting shares with a total equity value of 100 BTC (0.00001 BTC each). In the event of liquidation or breach of this Agreement they solemnly promise and warrant to repay all investors holding shares at this minimum value."
punkman: what happens to "minimum value" if the liquidation nets less than 100 btc though?
asciilifeform: punkman: they pay from own pockets?
nubbins`: hmm davout are you really going to withhold bet payouts to bettors who were unlucky enough to receive free money from mp's personal funds
nubbins`: or have i misread
nubbins`: also, a thousand lels at the guy who suggested the double-paid bettors just return the funds
nubbins`: !up solrodar
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform>punkman: they pay from own pockets? << that's my understanding too
nubbins`: last sentence of quoted text says exactly this
nubbins`: http://qntra.net/2016/03/bitbet-receiver-hired/#comment-49443 <<< such misspell, such misunderstand
assbot: BitBet Receiver Hired | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1XMyKRD )
nubbins`: "GPG signed contracts are no good if they can't be enforced." actually they've fulfilled their purpose precisely as intended here
solrodar: nubbins`: it's logical to reduce payments to those addresses if and only if if davout decides MP's double payment can be charged to the company
nubbins`: agreed
nubbins`: will be interesting to see what decision is made
nubbins`: http://imgur.com/a/q6MAP
assbot: Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet ... ( http://bit.ly/1T693w3 )
PeterL: <nubbins`> hmm davout are you really going to withhold bet payouts to bettors who were unlucky enough to receive free money from mp's personal funds << so if person A used separate addresses for bets and person B used the same address on multiple bets, A gets more money and B gets less?
nubbins`: correct
nubbins`: iow, penalizing address reuse
solrodar: both bettors have a moral obligation to return the money, it's just that one of them is identifiable and the other one isn't
nubbins`: solrodar i don't think any such moral obligation exists.
danielpbarron: solrodar, what moral obligation??
nubbins`: solrodar see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=339544.0 for reference
assbot: BitBet Stole ~$7,000 from me (10 BTC) ... ( http://bit.ly/1QCqtie )
nubbins`: tl;dr adults are responsible for the consequences of their actions
nubbins`: whether their name is snackman or mircea_popescu
solrodar: I doubt you'd believe that if you had lost a large sum of money by sending it to the wrong person by mistake
nubbins`: my belief in the matter doesn't change the logic tho, hey?
shinohai: !s 1 Kings 3:16-28
assbot: 0 results for '1 Kings 3:16-28' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=1+Kings+3%3A16-28
shinohai: danielpbarron got to admit things were simpler in times when decisions involved swords.
danielpbarron: 1 Kings 3:16 Now two women who were harlots came to the king, and stood before him. 17 And one woman said, "O my lord, this woman and I dwell in the same house; and I gave birth while she was in the house. 18 Then it happened, the third day after I had given birth, that this woman also gave birth. And we were together; no one was with us in the house, except the two of us in the house. 19 And this woman's son died in the nig
danielpbarron: 22 Then the other woman said, "No! But the living one is my son, and the dead one is your son."
danielpbarron: And the first woman said, "No! But the dead one is your son, and the living one is my son."
danielpbarron: Thus they spoke before the king. 23 And the king said, "The one says, 'This is my son, who lives, and your son is the dead one'; and the other says, 'No! But your son is the dead one, and my son is the living one.'" 24 Then the king said, "Bring me a sword." So they brought a sword before the king. 25 And the king said, "Divide the living child in two, and give half to one, and half to the other."
danielpbarron: 26 Then the woman whose son was living spoke to the king, for she yearned with compassion for her son; and she said, "O my lord, give her the living child, and by no means kill him!" But the other said, "Let him be neither mine nor yours, but divide him." 27 So the king answered and said, "Give the first woman the living child, and by no means kill him; she is his mother." 28 And all Israel heard of the judgment which the ki
PeterL: It does not matter who the true mother was, the one who wanted him to live was deemed a better mother
PeterL: but what does this have to do with returning mistakenly gifted coins?
solrodar: I was wondering the same thing
solrodar: I'm sure I could find some law about unjust enrichment in the bible if I looked hard enough
danielpbarron: please do (look hard)
solrodar: no, because nobody here except you gives a crap what the bible says
danielpbarron: you still haven't explained what's moral about returning the money
solrodar: you try to pay your rent, but make a typo and send the money to me instead
solrodar: should I send it back, minus a small fee for my inconvenience?
danielpbarron: have you stolen anything?
PeterL: I would call it charitable to return the money
danielpbarron: if it's charitable to return then it isn't immoral to keep
solrodar: I would call it Christian :P
danielpbarron: you who doesn't believe the Bible are going to say what someone who beileves in the Bible should do?
PeterL: lol
solrodar: seriously, I think you should return it whether you believe in the bible or not
punkman: #bible-assets
danielpbarron: I was not the recipient of the double funds, but if I had been I would surely keep it
PeterL: has mp asked people to return it?
solrodar: my argument is that a mistaken payment may have changed possession of the money, but not ownership of it
solrodar: since the sender never intended to transfer ownership to that person
solrodar: but I know some people say this doesn't apply to bitcoin
davout: pretty much everyone with a few neurons left actually
solrodar: does it apply to anything?
danielpbarron: there is no ownership in bitcoin, except that satoshi owns all of it
danielpbarron: you know a private key, someone else might know that private key. neither owns it
mircea_popescu: davout> https://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#c5888 <<< guy has a point << lemme tell you a story. when i was a kid, i don't recall exactly, 5, 6, something, my mother was very sad over i have no idea what - being as i was too young to comprehend the emotions and problems of adults. but to cheer her up i decided to make her a dress! to which purpose i proceeded to cut off the shiny
assbot: BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match :: 80.22 B (54%) on Yes, 68.59 B (46%) on No | closed 2 weeks 13 hours ago ... ( http://bit.ly/22vqNHi )
mircea_popescu: seal top off a bottle of Maltova and attach it to a piece of fabric with the loose sewing of a preschooler.
mircea_popescu: so yes, i can appreciate the sentiment, infantile such as it is. guy means well, i'm sure. but in point of fact he is so far removed from relevancy in any conceivable approach to the issues, that there's really very little to be said.
mircea_popescu: and speaking of this, most everyone involved^H^H^H^H^H^H inloved with bitcoin should insistently watch and rewatch malena, because it is EXACTLY the situation.
mircea_popescu: yes, the prepubescent boy is in love ; but what's he going to do for the adult woman ? have her WAIT ?
solrodar: danielpbarron: But you evidently apply the same principle to fiat bank accounts as well. Anything else? Your dog has just jumped in my window, is it my dog now?
danielpbarron: where have I done that?
solrodar: my above question re rent
danielpbarron: i guess you don't own your fiats either; the fed does or something
PeterL: solrodar if you sign a statement "I give my dog to danielpbarron", then yes it is his dog, and if you later say oops, I meant to give it to bob, then it is up to DPB to give the dog up, but he does not have to
solrodar: and a bitcoin transaction is equivalent to such a signed statement?
davout: solrodar: strictly
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438364 << and you're going to ask the fellow to submit proof that he didn't... sell the address ? or etc ?☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 09:34:25; davout: more generally, it seems an important thing to me that bettor claims should be adjusted by the existence of a a previous double-payout, if any
PeterL: the bitcoin did not just move accidentally, bitcoin moves when somebody signs a statement "I own this bitcoin, I am sending it to address X"
mircea_popescu: solrodar no, because while the dog might be your dog, bitcoin may not actually be your bitcoin.
PeterL: that is the whole point of bitcoin, to definitively establish who owns it at all times!
mircea_popescu: you may at most control some.
PeterL: well, own, controll, whatever you want to call it
mircea_popescu: but other than that - nobody has any title over any bitcoin nor could anyone acquire any title over any bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: PeterL the difference happens to be rather important from a legal perspective.
mircea_popescu: "you know, react, dissolve, whatever you wanna call it" sorta thing.
solrodar: so we say mircea_popescu controlled a large quantity of bitcoin, and had agreed to consider a certain quantity of it the property of bitbet, but that concept of property does not go beyond any agreement which may have existed between him and bitbet?
mircea_popescu: quite.
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438489 <<< i'd argue the notion of "a fellow" is not relevant in this context on one hand, are you also seriously proposing that "selling a private key" is even possible?☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 13:51:32; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438364 << and you're going to ask the fellow to submit proof that he didn't... sell the address ? or etc ?
davout: the moment you sell a private key it ceases to be private, and therefore ceases to be a private key
mircea_popescu: davout i am not proposing anything. you are proposing to introduce some assumptions, which seem ridiculous on the face, and are invited to support them.
mircea_popescu: so ?
mircea_popescu: fine, if you absolutely must : suppose owner made an agreement with a third party that the nth txn goes to x and the nth+1 goes to y. are they now bound to revise their agreements on the basis of how you may wish to liberally reinterpret the protocol ?
mircea_popescu: this is the ESSENCE of powerrangering.
mircea_popescu: it is also very visibly, and very risibly, reaction to bitcoin, which is to say a transparent attempt to exactly prevent specifically what bitcoin does,
mircea_popescu: which is, seal things in the past in such a way they aren't revisable in the future.
solrodar: mircea_popescu: aren't you the one that always argues that there are no people, only keys? In which case there's nothing wrong with recovering money from keys. If the key is controlled by multiple people, that's their problem.
mircea_popescu: solrodar you may not make assumptions.
mircea_popescu: certainly not after the fact.
davout: mircea_popescu: you haven't provided any support for the notion of "a fellow" that you introduced, or did i miss it?
mircea_popescu: you introduced it, really. but i restated the issue more formally and without reference to it.
solrodar: if any obligation exists between bitbet and a bettor, the bettor is identified by his key and nothing more
davout: mircea_popescu: i guess i did when i said 'bettor'
mircea_popescu: if you are going to make other determinations than who won a bet, might as well put a 50% tax on the richest 10% or w/e the french fashion is these days.
mircea_popescu: give more to the poor, they're worthier.
davout: bettor's an address though, and claims are bound to addresses, not people, are they?
mircea_popescu: this is an eery rehash of the earlier thing re "bitcoin is addresses / no it's txn" where jurov massacred me.
mircea_popescu: funny how everything is in the fucking log. dja recall it davout ?
davout: nah, plox to link
davout: !s bitcoin is addresses
assbot: 24 results for 'bitcoin is addresses' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=bitcoin+is+addresses
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-01-2016#1361806 and prev.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 07-01-2016 00:00:47; jurov: input is a reference to an output from a previous transaction. output is: a hash of a previous transaction + Index of the specific output in the referenced transaction.
mircea_popescu: anyway, take it from a software design perspective. you are proposing to change the stateless parser (bet accepted) -> (bet resolved) -> (bet paid out) into a stateful and undefined (bet accepted) -> (bet resolved) -> (???) -> (some thing paid according to some rules you can't know)
mircea_popescu: really ? nuts!
mircea_popescu: and for that matter, are you going to pay out of pocket for the costs anyone and everyone incurs to adapt to this model, like nsa via gavin paid (to their own people) for their 2013 debacle ?
solrodar: mircea_popescu: the bettors entered a contract with bitbet, then you, acting on bitbet's behalf, paid them too much by mistake. Even if there's no property in bitcoin, doesn't the existence of that contract allow you to introduce an argument of unjust enrichment?
davout: mircea_popescu: epic convo :D
nubbins`: <+solrodar>since the sender never intended to transfer ownership to that person <<< mp didn't intend to transfer ownership of the coins involved in a tx that he sent?
mircea_popescu: solrodar there's no bitcoin precedent of "unjust enrichment", and if it is introduced it applies first of all to all miners.
mircea_popescu: since when is block reward JUST enrichment ?
mircea_popescu: much like the tmsr license, bitcoin is deliberately constructed a certain way to destroy fiat notions of this world, not to maintain them nor to permit their maintenance.
PeterL: block reward is payment for work of processing block of transactions, seems justified to me
mircea_popescu: that it seems justified to you may make a difference when you're king of the world and can promise me to appoint all judges forevermore to comply with your notions.
mircea_popescu: until then - it's just another unbound promise.
nubbins`: judges, lol
mircea_popescu: promise here being a term of art standing in opposition with protocol.
solrodar: if you reject all notions of justice then this entire liquidation thing becomes meaningless
mircea_popescu: not so. it becomes meaningless to fiat twerps.
mircea_popescu: it is perfectly meaningful in its own proper terms, which is why tmsr prevails over any pretend fiat sovereign :
PeterL: If block reward is unjust, what is a just way of distributing coin? Or is that even possible?
mircea_popescu: they're meaningful to us, if risible ; we're not meaningful nor can be rendered meaningful for them.
mircea_popescu: PeterL what is the correct way of cheering your mother up with a tin of maltova and and a chunk of cloth ?
PeterL: wtf?
davout: mircea_popescu: that way does sound like a good way!
mircea_popescu: see log.
PeterL: saw log, still wtf?
mircea_popescu: davout it worked, that time, but i wouldn't rely on it!
mircea_popescu: PeterL do you find people are often able to help you when your problem is "wtf?" ?
PeterL: not expecting help, just completely lost as to where your question connects to mine?
mircea_popescu: fine, if you must : your question is not even a question in that it doesn't make any sense.
davout: maltova and chunks of cloth not so much... desire to cheer others up, i'd say why not
PeterL: more of an "I have no words" than a problem
mircea_popescu: dun sweat it.
mircea_popescu: davout hey, i can appreciate the sentiment. the equations, however, stay cold.
solrodar: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438533 << there was no precedent for liquidation either, yet you had quite specific ideas about how it should be done☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 14:20:36; mircea_popescu: solrodar there's no bitcoin precedent of "unjust enrichment", and if it is introduced it applies first of all to all miners.
mircea_popescu: it is the actual threshold of maturity, when the agent comprehends that some things must be done because of themselves and irrespective of their will. usually this discovery came to young people who were in love - but society has meanwhile "progressed" past that.
mircea_popescu: solrodar that is true.
solrodar: didn't those ideas come from your sense of justice, equity or whatever you call it?
mircea_popescu: lol k. what you're doing is roughly equivalent to coming into my house, attempting to give a name to one of my women and then proposing to exchange her for your own of the same name. ty but...
mircea_popescu: let her stand nude, it's more becoming.
solrodar: you know, a lot of your metaphors are stupid but that one almost reaches the level of a zen koan
mircea_popescu: aw!
solrodar goes to justly enrich himself
mircea_popescu: it's not even a metaphor, it's a straight comparison.
nubbins`: ^
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438381 << oya.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 12:03:12; BingoBoingo: Aha, I knew it would happen, but I didn't know it would happen this early. The reciever is now burdened with CHOICE.
asciilifeform: HOLY FUCK
asciilifeform: is mircea_popescu drinking on the job?!??!!
mircea_popescu: hola alfie! what ?
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438489 << SINCE WHEN CAN YOU SELL A PRIVATE KEY☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 13:51:32; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438364 << and you're going to ask the fellow to submit proof that he didn't... sell the address ? or etc ?
asciilifeform: you can't sell a private key!
mircea_popescu: you can't.
asciilifeform: you can only create a synthetic monster with split-personality syndrome!
mircea_popescu: he can do whatever the fuck he pleases.
asciilifeform: if you try to sell/share a key.
mircea_popescu: aha! so ?
asciilifeform: shared key is moral agent now ?!
davout: the receiver was already burdened with choice, since he has to certify, or not, claims
mircea_popescu: davout i'm sure you knew what you were getting into.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform not the issue. the issue is, can you assume or can't you assume. and the result is you can't assume.
davout: yeah absolutely
asciilifeform: unless i misarithmetize catastrophically, davout is stuck with giving the bettors a haircut. question is ~which~. will there be 'communism', where they all bleed equally? or 'judgement day', when the scumbags bleed first.
mircea_popescu: you got the parts switched tho!
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ?
mircea_popescu: will there be judgement day, when all there is is dark, or will there be "communism" aka "christianity" aka a hunchback god tries to create a world just like he's seen in his sane, healthy brother's hands ?
mircea_popescu: (and if anyone's unfamiliar with the hunchback god, plox to take a break and read up on teh gnosis. it'll be good for you.)
asciilifeform: i would like to smoke the necessary dope to see mircea_popescu's pov here, where the scum who got paid twice had the temerity to whine about delayed payouts while sitting on their unearned windfall, but then somehow deserve to be paid a THIRD TIME
nubbins`: asciilifeform the 13.37 haircut is baked into the deal, i don't think any other haircuts are?
asciilifeform: nubbins`: no
mircea_popescu: deserve dun enter into i.
mircea_popescu: it*
mircea_popescu: and in the interest of not fucking up everyhing in one fell swoop of well meaning idiocy, "deserve"'d better not enter into it.
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438506 << ok this is can sorta see☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 13:56:37; mircea_popescu: fine, if you absolutely must : suppose owner made an agreement with a third party that the nth txn goes to x and the nth+1 goes to y. are they now bound to revise their agreements on the basis of how you may wish to liberally reinterpret the protocol ?
asciilifeform sits back down on his stake
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438515 << this is true though☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 14:01:40; solrodar: if any obligation exists between bitbet and a bettor, the bettor is identified by his key and nothing more
asciilifeform: there are no people in the universe other than the keys
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform see, this is how professional life goes. you are paid well to sit in silence in a room and pick the right thread under a microscope ; i am paid even better to sit in the din of the market and pick the right thread with bare eyes.
mircea_popescu: now tell me re deserve again.
asciilifeform: and introducing 'what if there were some agreement re: n+1th etc' is the place where unwarranted assumptions are made
mircea_popescu: and how is that ?
asciilifeform: keys are people, people are keys.
mircea_popescu: if this were the case one'd get one key issued with the ssn.
nubbins`: SSNs aren't unique
asciilifeform: if meatbags were abusing bitcoin by sharing a private key, they earned their hell.
mircea_popescu: bitcoin addresses aren't acceptable proof of identity (such as for instance through that "signing" kludge) specifically for this reason.
mircea_popescu: again - earned dun enter into it.
asciilifeform: but rsa is ?
mircea_popescu: conventionally, atm, it is.
mircea_popescu: mostly because - not bitcoin.
asciilifeform: from my perch, they suck ~equally.
mircea_popescu: and so they do.
mircea_popescu: man and woman also suck equally, one has the children the other doesn't.
asciilifeform: this is an argument ?
mircea_popescu: no, your "from my perch, they suck ~equally" is no argument, just color.
mircea_popescu: things may suck equally, so what of it. MERIT STILL DUN ENTER INTO IT!
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438527 << i can see this. but we got there already, are already inserted on that stake, regardless of what happens, because the bettors ~will~ get a haircut☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 14:06:24; mircea_popescu: anyway, take it from a software design perspective. you are proposing to change the stateless parser (bet accepted) -> (bet resolved) -> (bet paid out) into a stateful and undefined (bet accepted) -> (bet resolved) -> (???) -> (some thing paid according to some rules you can't know)
asciilifeform: they already will get a ??? --> something paid according to some rules they can't know
asciilifeform: because the damn thing br0k3.
mircea_popescu: there's something to this.
asciilifeform: bbet is functioning in what we call in the civilized world 'нештатный режим'
asciilifeform: like car with the wheels off.
asciilifeform: or engine on fire.
asciilifeform: the question is not 'whether bettors will be shafted' but ~with what kind of shaft'
asciilifeform: ~
mircea_popescu: "the simplest"
mircea_popescu: well, it is also possible bitbet sells well and makes the issue moot.
asciilifeform: it is even possible that coin will fall from the sky into the right addr and make it moot...
asciilifeform: like it fell upon the scum
mircea_popescu: so it is. why so much haet anyway
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438635 << one of the ways we get komyooonisms is that 'divide it all among the scum equally' is 'THE SIMPLEST' algo in the world.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 15:03:51; mircea_popescu: "the simplest"
asciilifeform: abdicates all judgement.
asciilifeform: mathematically - easiest. etc.
mircea_popescu: can you elaborate on this communism identification, cuz i dun see it ?
asciilifeform: pretending that unequals are equals.
mircea_popescu: let's maybe start with, what is your definition of communism ?
asciilifeform: see above.
mircea_popescu: so really equalitarianism ? not, "from each according to his wallet, to each according to his needs" sorta thing ?
asciilifeform: the bettors are ~not~ all identical in their misfortune.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: well these are connected, no ?
mircea_popescu: im not sure!
PeterL: connected only if you assume needs are equal, right?
asciilifeform: they are separable in the strict sense where the thermodynamics has two phases
asciilifeform: the dekulakization phase, and the steady state
asciilifeform: (the latter, a mythical animal)
asciilifeform momentarily stunned by mircea_popescu being confessedly unsure of something!1111
mircea_popescu: i think this angle is interesting and should be pursued. so asciilifeform : do you suppose that the harem is intrinsically communist, if and in that the women are equals ?
mircea_popescu: !s from:mircea not sure
assbot: 567 results for 'from:mircea not sure' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Amircea+not+sure
mircea_popescu: HATER
asciilifeform: l0l!
mircea_popescu: hehe
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i do not rightfully have a firm enough grip on harem to answer.
asciilifeform: i know more about the bacteria that live on the bottom of the sea.
mircea_popescu: ok... let's see. hm.
mircea_popescu: do you have two friends ?
asciilifeform: sure.
mircea_popescu: if you go eating together, is it communism if you go wherever you all agree to go ?
asciilifeform: nah, that's just good ol'fashioned agreement.
mircea_popescu: but you're unequals that pretend to equality ?
mircea_popescu: in short, yes, i suspect your take on communism may actually require alienation outright.
asciilifeform: for the evening.
mircea_popescu: but it IS communism ?
asciilifeform: if we seal ourselves in a cave and take turns eating own limbs, THEN - yes.
mircea_popescu: so what's the threshold ?
asciilifeform: what's the threshhold for jumping off cliff ? is it when you splat? when you're in freefall? when you stop the car? when brushing your teeth that morning, thinking 'cliff..' ???
mircea_popescu: not a question without merit.
asciilifeform: this is not a question having a useful answer though.
mircea_popescu: so how are you going to be a lord ?
asciilifeform: it is your mathematical 'pole' from 2 days ago
asciilifeform: straddling the asymptote.
asciilifeform: being a lord, as i see it, is not about balancing pencils on their points, but pushing the pencil in your CHOSEN direction and ~standing by~ the decision for the rest of your life.
mircea_popescu: that's being a soldier.
asciilifeform: is it so different ?
mircea_popescu: a flattering view, in its innocent purity, but not how practice ever works that i've seen
asciilifeform: i suppose i am then a soldier.
mircea_popescu: well, it tends to become.
mircea_popescu: so then how do you discern when another's crossed the pole, which practically speaking is an event horizon ?
mircea_popescu: through prayer ?
asciilifeform: in the end, only sure when you hear the splat.
asciilifeform: but you PUSH the pencil.
mircea_popescu: hm.
asciilifeform: take a stand. it is one of the things i always appreciated about mircea_popescu !11
asciilifeform: that he DID this.
asciilifeform: many times.
mircea_popescu: why thank you.
asciilifeform: that's really what ~will is~.
mircea_popescu: but the problem remains, i have nfi how to dispose of the communism charge in that place.
asciilifeform: you do it by picking up the sword and saying 'eh no you buggers ain't equal'
mircea_popescu: no, that's how you dispose of the MATTER once you disposed of the communism charge on the side of "yep, s oit is"
asciilifeform: but it is not my place to tell mircea_popescu (or davout , who in this case is holding the scalpel ) exactly how.
mircea_popescu: atm i can't see that it is and dunno how to completely argue it isn't.
mircea_popescu: seems to me that if you have nine girls and one penis, fucking each ~weekly is not in any sense communism, but just as you say, good ol' agreement & conjugal peace.
asciilifeform: note that sultan did not do this..
mircea_popescu: so it is.
mircea_popescu: but note that the sultan was an idiot.
mircea_popescu: (and the mythical rashid that wasn't - did do this.)
asciilifeform: again, this is far from my planet, i cannot rightfully propose to judge the sultan.
mircea_popescu: is it communism if you have two hammers with slightly different utilities that you use indiferently ?
asciilifeform: but the bettors who kept their windfall and then whined about being 'cheated', they are plainly scum and the wrath of ragnarok is theirs to be suffered ~first~ by any reasonable justice, imho.
mircea_popescu: to put the matter bluntly : is it communism to round ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform again - attempting to interpose yourself between the perceptibles and sophia is a very expensive and ultimately self destructive desire.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: possibly.
mircea_popescu: not that i know anyone not guilty of it, heck, it's my cardinal sin i'm discovering.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform would you say a man is a communist who goes to the casino every weekend and plays either blackjack or roulette as he feels like it that day, because really, the house edge is not the same ?
asciilifeform: which is why i'm not envying davout his job.
mircea_popescu: is the man who doesn't drive across town to buy milk a dime a gallon cheaper a communist ?
trinque: I think this apt building is communist for having shut off my water today to fix some pipes elsewhere in the building.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: iirc the christians called it 'sloth'
asciilifeform: and every living thing is in its heart, on a bad day, 'communist'
asciilifeform: see also the proverbial 'ты умри сегодня а я завтра'.
mircea_popescu: but this is utter nonsense!
asciilifeform: not the roulette, i mean
mircea_popescu: remarkably, i had found this in the states, you know, people from the generation that "anti american activities", ie, still had a fighting bone in their body, WOULD engage in this patently insane behaviour.
asciilifeform: the fundamental 'communist' act is to ~lean on the group~
mircea_popescu: now that is very much how i conceive hte notion.
asciilifeform: aha!
mircea_popescu: which is how solrodar's slavegirl exchange ended up rebuffed. da fuck do i care to import some group bs.
asciilifeform still grunting his way through log
mircea_popescu: lol trinque
mircea_popescu: truly, communism was built in the roman islae.
asciilifeform: insulae?
mircea_popescu: aha
asciilifeform: the way i see it, and again i feel quite fortunate not to be stuck with the scalpel,
asciilifeform: is that the folks who kept the coin LEANED-on-the-group.
asciilifeform: at least after mircea_popescu made public the tx ids.
mircea_popescu: you can't start coloring coins. seriously.
mircea_popescu: it's anathema.
asciilifeform: i was not the one who printed the tx...
asciilifeform: and if there is a colour, i point to it.
asciilifeform: why should i live in a fictional universe of oughts.
asciilifeform: when there is a colour - there is one.
mircea_popescu: if you're going to drop the bitcoin scalar in favour of a bitcoin-justice vector, there is really no fucking point to even bother, just visa.
asciilifeform: when there is a fella with a scalpel, you ~already~ made a small visa.
asciilifeform: that is why there is no happy ending to this tale.
mircea_popescu: his scalpel is to cut in the corporation, not in the fucking world.
mircea_popescu: what if i come to the kitchen one morning and discover girl cooking burned... the color blue.
mircea_popescu: everwhere, permanently. wtf.
mircea_popescu: the cold truth of the matter being, of course, that bitcoin's an imponerable that obviously can't be cut. but when you, the sleeping butterfly that dreams himself lao tzi, in your dream believe to have cut into it,
mircea_popescu: the result is that your dream diverges from reality by that much, and it's not clear breaches OF THAT NATURE can ever be healed.
mircea_popescu: short of direct divine intervention or somesuch.
asciilifeform: but it will cut how it wants, and it not mathematically deterministic/predictable, and will answer to no one.
asciilifeform: the tragedy was precisely in the circumstances which produced the scalpel hand. not in who will be cut, that is secondary.
mircea_popescu: say that again with less it s
asciilifeform: my terminal is bodged, 1sec
mircea_popescu: no rush
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438750 << they are healed the way the demolition of newtonian mechanics was 'healed'☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 15:37:30; mircea_popescu: the result is that your dream diverges from reality by that much, and it's not clear breaches OF THAT NATURE can ever be healed.
asciilifeform: which is to say, we find ways to live with the wound
mircea_popescu: that wasn't a wound, it was on the contrary, the closing of a gap
mircea_popescu: "healing" that is easy enough to do.
asciilifeform: closing at the cost of tearing a new (qm / gr) gash
asciilifeform: but i digress.
asciilifeform: and i'm not even sure we have a cataclysm here
asciilifeform: let's do a gedankenexperiment
asciilifeform: say i owe mircea_popescu 100 btc
asciilifeform: (sold my organz!111)
asciilifeform: to be delivered by next tuesday.
mircea_popescu: aite
asciilifeform: tomorrow i trip over a cable, fall on a button, accidentally fire pistol, the bullet hits another button, sends him 90 btc.
asciilifeform: how much do i owe him on next tuesday ?
mircea_popescu: 10.
asciilifeform: aha!
asciilifeform: so ditto bbet creditors ??
mircea_popescu: how so ?
asciilifeform: or what am i missing.
mircea_popescu: you are missing this :
mircea_popescu: mp is out of money and now running a lemonade stand. you take a menu one day strolling by, and on this menu it says : lemonade, 10 bitcents, address 1lemonade ; fucking with a hammer, 12 bitcents, adress 1fuckinghammer.
mircea_popescu: you pistolaccident 60 bitcents to 1fuckinghammer, show up at lemonade stand "i would like a lemonade"
mircea_popescu: you're getting fucked with a hammer
mircea_popescu: five times.
trinque: !b 4
assbot: Last 4 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2EFAKJC.txt )
asciilifeform: fair!
mircea_popescu: so then.
mircea_popescu: anything else is "screw your bitcoin - dwim, chcte!"
mircea_popescu: which is, if nothing else, prohibitively expensive.
asciilifeform: i however see the notion of not fucking-with-a-hammer those malodorous thieving swine who silently kept the windfall and LEANED ON THE GROUP, as ultimately very expensive.
mircea_popescu: power is not given you to finally get even with those you fucking hate.
mircea_popescu: i am deeply sorry to disappoint,
asciilifeform: well not to me obviously.
mircea_popescu: heh. you see ?
asciilifeform: but the fella with the scalpel is stuck cutting somebody.
asciilifeform: my place was merely to suggest ~whom~. which is done.
asciilifeform: i recommend - the communists.
mircea_popescu: i recommend blindness, because i fucking well aren't going to be supplying all the candles now required or in the future needed to look in all possible or conceivable dark crevices ; nor do i see who ever could.
asciilifeform: i can see this.
asciilifeform: solomon - agreed.
mircea_popescu: and no - it moterfucking IS NOT "our obligation to try anyway, mp, try, try".
mircea_popescu: fucking welfarism blergh.
asciilifeform: i also did not say 'obligation' now did i.
mircea_popescu: fuck or get off the bitch, this trying is giving me hypertension.
mircea_popescu: well no, you didn't say.
mircea_popescu: you know the samovar joke ?
asciilifeform: hm?
mircea_popescu: !s from:mircea samovar joke
assbot: 1 results for 'from:mircea samovar joke' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3Amircea+samovar+joke
mircea_popescu: ha!
mircea_popescu: bum of the town falls asleep drunk on railroad. steam engine comes and thrashes him thoroughly.
mircea_popescu: sometime later, bleeding heart rich old lady invites bum over for tea
mircea_popescu: samovar is brought in steaming in all its samovarish glory.
mircea_popescu: bum jumps up, throws the thing to the ground, stomps it into a flat sheet
mircea_popescu: "what got into you!!1"
mircea_popescu: "these things - you gotta kill them young."
asciilifeform: l0l!
davout: kek
davout: btw, is mircea_popescu in a position to transfer the bitbet.us domain?
davout: because as far as the whois is concerned, the domain contact is... chetty
asciilifeform: briefly back to mega-thread, i ~very much see the appeal~ of mircea_popescu's 'cold equations, motherfuckers!' angle.
asciilifeform: but afaik we like cold equations because they are SOLID and PREDICTABLE, not because cold.
asciilifeform: and our 'equations' have already warmed over, in this case.
asciilifeform: like warm beer.
mircea_popescu: no, we like them specifically because cold.
mircea_popescu: we got the women for heat, makes a fine engine.
mircea_popescu: cup a cunt in the left, pick some ~actual numbers~ in the right, watch your eyebrows spin.
asciilifeform: what i meant was, whatever the bettors end up getting, will be an output of human caprice.
mircea_popescu: davout darn, it is ? ima dig into it.
asciilifeform: not hard numberz.
mircea_popescu: you got a namecheap acct it can be pushed to ?
davout: mircea_popescu: i can make one
mircea_popescu: be so kind thx
davout: so it won't be an issue will it?
mircea_popescu: confirmed, i have it here.
mircea_popescu: poor chetty.
davout: :(
mircea_popescu: lemme know where to push it.
davout: i will
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438393 << ftr i'm not too sold on this sort of argument. if only the bullet hadn't hit your beloved franz ... then what ? wouldn't have been a war ? he wouldn't have been a man, or a soldier ?☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 12:29:04; asciilifeform: and yes, they had no obligation to send it back, etc. but if they had, there would be no reactor fire, and a still-operating bbet. that isn't about to be auctioned off to spammerz.
mircea_popescu: vorbe de claca.
asciilifeform: then reactor fire next week !111
asciilifeform: but not this.
mircea_popescu: i thought the consensus was this reactor should have fired a year ago or w/e.
asciilifeform: but anyway if it were my job to describe parallel universes, i'd put up a shingle!111
mircea_popescu: aha.
asciilifeform: in other lulz, i was looking at 'google map' near $rupturefarm, and found a 'metaphysical chapel.'
asciilifeform: maybe there they do parallel universes!11
mircea_popescu: go, ask ?
asciilifeform: one of these days!
asciilifeform: first i might eat at the 'cafe saigon'
asciilifeform: (can i eat while hanging off a chopper skid ??)
mircea_popescu: lol
mircea_popescu: or at least while the very earnest eastern whores of the 50s
asciilifeform: aha!
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> in other lulz, i was looking at 'google map' near $rupturefarm, and found a 'metaphysical chapel.' << I'll have you know I took 500 level metaphysical classes in University
BingoBoingo: !up mrottenkolber
mrottenkolber: BingoBoingo: What's up?
BingoBoingo: mrottenkolber: Oh, the usual
BingoBoingo: To discover what the usual is you have to go to the logs, but not before the end of October, because around that time the usual changed
thestringpuller: asciilifeform: soul brew eh?
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo it did ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Well the stop drinking thing was a rather substantive change in the usual. I think reduced the N in my SNR, but I'm not entirely sure.
mircea_popescu: ah ah, you were talking abot yerself! i c.
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438364 << madness, madness!☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 09:34:25; davout: more generally, it seems an important thing to me that bettor claims should be adjusted by the existence of a a previous double-payout, if any
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes go through the log, it's argued.
ben_vulpes: mhm.
ben_vulpes: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438613 << on the n+1 thread, consider also the broker, asciilifeform.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 14:58:19; asciilifeform: if meatbags were abusing bitcoin by sharing a private key, they earned their hell.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: broker?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: folks who share privkeys create schizo synthetic monsters, a la gox, and are hostis humani generis.
davout: ben_vulpes: do elaborate
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: a broker'd not have to share keys with anyone.
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: how do brokers enter into anything ?
asciilifeform: explain plox.
asciilifeform: whatever repayment obligation bbet has to anyone at all, it was and remains to ADDRESSES, not to 'people', 'persons', or whatever other old world claptrap
asciilifeform: privkeys == people, for any sane purpose.
asciilifeform: and given that the only signatures establishing the obligation were btc tx-en, that is to whom it owed.
asciilifeform: i can't see any hole in this wall.
kakobrekla: from the first paragraph of the bb faq: The beneficiary address is never changed under any circumstances. Please make sure you own it!
asciilifeform: aha!!
asciilifeform: ergo btc privkeys ARE the playing characters in the game
asciilifeform: the only moral entities for whatever purpose.
asciilifeform: and to try to infer or posit people or whatnot 'behind' the keys, is to introduce chess pieces to a card game
ben_vulpes: sure.
asciilifeform: so what then does ben_vulpes give as argument re why the double-send should not count against the obligations remaining ?
ben_vulpes: kakobrekla: nowhere in there does it say "if we overpay and can identify the people to whom we overpaid, we'll clawback funds from those addresses."
asciilifeform: not 'claw back'
asciilifeform: but declare obligation settled.
asciilifeform: which it IS.
asciilifeform: by that amount.
asciilifeform: they were PAID.
ben_vulpes: eerily reminiscient of the commerce clause. "in addition to these explicit terms in our favor, we may decide in the future to do other things."
ben_vulpes: so was my ticket to con3, by mthreat.
asciilifeform: e.g., go broke an' into receivership.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu issued a receipt and all
kakobrekla: ben_vulpes see under 'misc' http://trilema.com/2015/bitbet-sbbet-february-2015-statement/ and http://trilema.com/2015/bitbet-sbbet-march-2015-statement/
assbot: BitBet (S.BBET) February 2015 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1S6Dcqa )
assbot: BitBet (S.BBET) March 2015 Statement on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1S6Da1s )
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: see thread. bbet is already doing many 'other things', from which there is no escape.
asciilifeform: whether or not you credit the chinese miners, the sybil net, or the devil, whoever,
asciilifeform: i can't see how the scumbags who pocketed the doublespend and then whined about bet payout delay, are not accomplices in the murder of bbet.
kakobrekla: nah
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: why not ?
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: now credits the howling monkeys outside of the wot with accomplishing things?
kakobrekla: if mp would rm -rf private keys, his linux distro would be the murderer?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: monkeys accomplish plenty. just not anything you would want.
asciilifeform: e.g., tearing apart jungle temple, burying the remains - in shit, banana peels.
ben_vulpes: moreover how does one know that any commenter on bitbet is a bettor? are they 'signing' things with the appropriate privkeys now?
asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: you neither know, nor need to.
asciilifeform: the obligation was to the ADDRESSES.
asciilifeform: they betted by transmitting a tx.
asciilifeform: the beneficiary addr and the bet amount are literally the ~only~ things we know for certain about them.
asciilifeform: the comments - could all be fictions, yes.
asciilifeform: but if any of them had seen it fit to return so much as one satoshi of the doublesend - i assume mircea_popescu, kakobrekla, or davout would have mentioned.
asciilifeform: (i could be wrong)
kakobrekla: i havent noticed anything that would point to that
asciilifeform: mega-unsurprise.
kakobrekla: anyway, care to poke a hole in the rm -rf case?
asciilifeform: yes.
asciilifeform: these are supposed to be ~people~
kakobrekla: i thought they were just addresses
asciilifeform: well yes.
asciilifeform: if we can have them be just addresses, the obligation was to ADDRESSES and is SATISFIED
asciilifeform: because they were paid. just slightly earlier than ought to have been.
asciilifeform: and partially.
asciilifeform: whereas if we paint them as 'people,' they then had a ~choice~ re: what to do with the coin.
asciilifeform: you can't be a 'people' when you feel like it, and then a 'mechanism' when it suits you.
kakobrekla: the prepayment is separate issue here
asciilifeform: say i owe mircea_popescu 100 btc.
asciilifeform: and i have a vorpal sword, worth 150
asciilifeform: i forget it on a park bench. he finds it.
asciilifeform: i ask 'gimme back me sword, mircea_popescu '
kakobrekla: the fuck up is in the forgetting it on the bench.
asciilifeform: he might. but only after i pay the 100.
PeterL: <asciilifeform> but if any of them had seen it fit to return so much as one satoshi of the doublesend - i assume mircea_popescu, kakobrekla, or davout would have mentioned. << If I did want to return part of doublespend, where would I send it and be sure MP does not just pocket it?
asciilifeform: PeterL: read any bbet statement, you will find 'gracious donations'
asciilifeform: PeterL: so you know EXACTLY how to put coin in bbet pocket, it was never a secret.
asciilifeform: not to mention that ~any~ btc can be sent back to originator addr!!
asciilifeform: note that i am not arguing that this is a moral obligation
kakobrekla: the originator would not necessarily show up in donations and not sure if anyone would notice.
asciilifeform: merely that it counts against your debt.
asciilifeform: by any sane reckoning.
nubbins`: bbet and mp are separate parties
nubbins`: despite mp's insistence to the contrary.
nubbins`: this is the crux of why alf's wrong here
PeterL: but if I return this doublespend, is it still going to be taken out of my other bets the site is holding?
asciilifeform: nubbins`: your contention is that it was impossible for the windfall recipients to return it ?
nubbins`: asciilifeform please indicate where i contended such
asciilifeform: nubbins`: the separate-entities thing
kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438921 < or to put it in another way 'bitcoin is an inanimate fucking object'☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 18:13:33; asciilifeform: these are supposed to be ~people~
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: aha! so treat the obligation as to the inanimate object: the ADDRESS.
kakobrekla: asciilifeform i agree with that.
nubbins`: asciilifeform not impossible, no. the windfall recipients know who owned each parcel of funds
asciilifeform: address was owed B btc at time T if condition C.
asciilifeform: it was given B - e at time T - q. Now, condition C.
nubbins`: asciilifeform let's say i'm owed 10 btc by you.
asciilifeform: so it is owed e.
nubbins`: kako gives me 10 btc and says "alf's debt is settled"
kakobrekla: asciilifeform but that also makes it clear who is to blame for bbet shutdown. and not its not the bettors who got two payments.
nubbins`: i say "no it is not"
nubbins`: i'm not responsible for de-spaghettifying things external to my transactions
asciilifeform: nubbins`: except that it is not external.
nubbins`: hence why in all the stock warrants it says specifically that the entity will not administer blah blah between third parties
nubbins`: asciilifeform so now you're saying that bbet=mp?
asciilifeform: what i'm saying is that obligation was from bbet-addr to bettor-addr.
nubbins`: yep
nubbins`: and funds came frOM
asciilifeform: and not from imaginary animals sitting at the controls.
nubbins`: mp-addr
nubbins`: then, later, bbet-addr.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: i see what you did there.
nubbins`: back to my example: you owe me $10, kako pays me $10, and now he claims you owe HIM $10.
nubbins`: reasonable? no?
PeterL: sounds like ripple
nubbins`: QED.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: both payments were quite clearly 'from bbet' tho.
nubbins`: asciilifeform i disagree...?
asciilifeform: from the perspective of the recipients
nubbins`: er, no.
asciilifeform: say they had received only ONE of them.
asciilifeform: either one.
nubbins`: you claim to see from the perspective of others now?
asciilifeform: they would consider themselves fairly repaid ?
asciilifeform: or not ?
nubbins`: but that's not what happened.
nubbins`: you can't analogize what happened to what didn't happen
asciilifeform: tell me that they would not, then you will have an argument
kakobrekla: i find the distinction quite irrelevant
nubbins`: asciilifeform if bbet = mp, why'd you put 'from bbet' in quotes?
asciilifeform: if either ALONE would have satisfied the creditors, they were then idempotent !
asciilifeform: ergo both 'from bbet' for any conceivable purpose.
nubbins`: no.
asciilifeform: and i have yet to read of a bbet user who wrote in, 'fuck you! i got my 22.222 btc but i can't be sure from whom and for what! pay up!'
nubbins`: this is not how idempotence works
nubbins`: i'm not gonna argue basic logic. i give up
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you can safely skip the preceding thread, it is a nubsism
nubbins`: lol, fuck you.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: though oddly enough he was arguing your side of the medal !
jurov: "assign credit/debt to addresses" is kinda slippery slope, why not go beyond it and try to analyze and put together addresses in wallets and assign credit/debt to these?
nubbins`: "nubsism".
asciilifeform: nubbins`: what am i to do, half the folks i talk to killfiled other half
nubbins`: what you're to do is stop willfully being illogical
nubbins`: but apparently that's off the table
nubbins`: so, like i said: i give up.
nubbins`: this is obivously not a place where reason and logic have any place
PeterL: nubbins` what if MP was travelling when bet resolves, pays somebody to send txn to bet winners, do those payments not count because they don't come directly from bbet wallet?
nubbins`: PeterL why, did that happen?
PeterL: just hypothetical trying to understand your position
nubbins`: no longer interested in explaining it
jurov: asciilifeform: really, since bitcoin makes whole wallets analyzable, why not apply the blame to whole wallet? moar justice!!!
PeterL: bitcoin is fungible, it does not matter to the recipient where it came from
nubbins`: agreed
asciilifeform: jurov: this is a leap into neverneverland. but operating using the ORIGINAL premise of bbet, where coin is owed to ADDRESS, is not.
asciilifeform: address - was paid! it was promised 'being paid', not 'be paid with metadata such-and-such'
asciilifeform: i don't recall any metadata.
asciilifeform: having been promised.
nubbins`: irrelephant
nubbins`: it was promised to be paid and it was paid
nubbins`: so what?
asciilifeform: if i promise that you will be 100btc richer tomorrow, and i choose to pay you by dropping it from an airplane into your chimney, so long as no one else contests that it was i who dropped - the debt is paid.
nubbins`: agreed.
nubbins`: if kako then drops another 100btc down my chimney
nubbins`: he can bill it to you
nubbins`: right?
asciilifeform: nubbins`: no, because i had no commerce with him.
nubbins`: exactly.
nubbins`: which brings us back to your assertion that bbet=mp and my assertion that bbet!=mp
nubbins`: which is why we're talking past each other
asciilifeform: nubbins`: BUT if i owed you 100, and he dropped 100, and i say 'i paid', and kakobrekla does not contest this claim - you've been paid.
nubbins`: you believe the two entities to be one
nubbins`: i do not.
nubbins`: asciilifeform lol. no.
nubbins`: you don't get to claim a third party handing me cash as your own payment.
nubbins`: wtf?
asciilifeform: nubbins`: then irreconcilably different premises, aha, and i have no moar wordz.
nubbins`: :D
nubbins`: "buying debt" is fiat bullshit
PeterL: has anybody added up how much the doublepsent addresses have left deposited in bbet?
asciilifeform: ;;later tell pete_dushenski any idea what talmud says about all this ?
gribble: The operation succeeded.
asciilifeform: PeterL: iirc it is in the lee sedol comments.
nubbins`: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5qmjNe7RVE
assbot: SLEEP live at Hellfest 2013 - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1MmlUJc )
kakobrekla: im not even sure what is being argued here but i feel it might relevant that proof of payment on bbet was always ambiguous - there was no explicit thing showing the payment - the most explicit was the lack of complaints
trinque: corporate personhood is also fiat bullshit
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: so it WAS 'you will be XXX btc richer', wasnit.
trinque: which turd stinks moar?
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: this answers, i think, my question of 'what exactly was it that bbet promised winners'
asciilifeform: so it was NOT 'ccc coin from addr aaa at time t'
asciilifeform: it was rather 'ccc coin to addr specified at bet time, at time t'
asciilifeform: t - was specified. and this condition was, yes, broken
asciilifeform: but it was broken routinely long before!
asciilifeform: every time payouts were delayed.
asciilifeform: so this time it was broken by paying them ccc - e coin at time t - t', ahead of schedule.
PeterL: I think the delay by bitcoin network was assumed to be okay
kakobrekla: asciilifeform yes, after the last fuck up i have added a way to specify the resulting tx when bet is resolved and payment is done so we wouldnt be doing two payments for one bet any more (because this obviously doesnt work!!)
kakobrekla: however this was not used - yet
nubbins`: asciilifeform so why didn't bbet monitor payout addresses, and cancel any payments to wallets which received funds from any source after bet resolution?
nubbins`: seems like a major lost opportunity.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: you are painting uncertainty where none existed.
nubbins`: no u, etc.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: both tx were for ~every~ purpose, from bbet, to bettors.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: and not 'from mysterymeat to mysterymeat'
nubbins`: then you're back to straight-up incompetence, releasing two separate-input tx's into the wild for the same bill.
nubbins`: fair enough
nubbins` wanders away
davout: jurov: X is a slippery slope isn't a valid argument for anything
trinque: this conversation is well downstream from the much more important question of *whose decision it about what a business they own does*
asciilifeform: davout: esp if the slope is not the least bit slippery, much as some folks might like to pour soap on it
trinque: if an owner of a business decides that address Y is now the payout address for something instead of X, fuck you, it is.
nubbins`: trinque one of the owners decided this, yeah...
trinque: and if that causes a dispute among the board of said company, well, here we are.
nubbins`: heh
trinque: nubbins`: and you're not one of them
asciilifeform: trinque: seems like the bettors were ~never~ promised payouts ~from particular addr~
asciilifeform: trinque: but simply ~payout~
trinque: the fuck is this committee action
nubbins`: trinque your argument is: the public doesn't get to lambast those who do poor business?
trinque: lets make a congress to pass some laws so this never happens again
nubbins`: i'm only flapping my jaw here.
trinque: sure, flap
nubbins`: you guys are the ones taking me seriously or not
nubbins`: i'm under no illusions that what i say is binding on anyone
nubbins`: make no mistake
nubbins`: i'm juuuuuust offering opinion.
asciilifeform: trinque: i have no standing whatsoever re bbet. but the matter is in the forum, fwiw. so we comment.
nubbins`: ^
nubbins`: i've never seen such vehement opposition to simple discussion of factual events as i've seen in here the past few weeks
PeterL: are you sure?
nubbins`: no, i have a terrible memory, it borders on pathology
trinque: all of it smacks of us being a part of some aggregate whose opinion matters in the private dealings of those present.
trinque: I am not.
nubbins`: fwiw all the dealings are public
PeterL: this "vehement opposition" is weak sauce when compared to partisan politic disciples
trinque: trinque │ sure, flap
nubbins`: agreed, which is why idgaf about it beyond marvelling at its irony
asciilifeform: trinque: it is called a forum.
asciilifeform: trinque: and ultimately davout has the scalpel now. but i can still ~say~ to him, 'hey listen up the liver is ~that~ way'
asciilifeform: trinque: he can agree, or not.
davout: asciilifeform: i think the matter becomes mucho clearer if you ask yourself "did bbet pay twice or did bbet pay once with mp coming along later for a gracious donation to the same recipients"
asciilifeform: davout: aha.
nubbins`: there's precedent for the latter
trinque: if he acts as the business and declares it as so how can it be otherwise?
jurov: davout id did misresolve a bet
jurov: *it did
asciilifeform: davout: but say the 1st tx went into dev/null as mircea_popescu intended it to when sending the 2nd. would the bettors have been wronged ?
davout: in other words, if mp's claim on bbet is approved, it means he was acting on behalf of bbet, which means bbet can consider the same claim settled twice and deduct the amount from further payouts
nubbins`: if i act as an elephant and declare it so...?
trinque: this is nonsense
asciilifeform: davout: yes!
jurov: and it did not use that to settle later claims
trinque: nubbins`: you own a business and decide what it does, yes?
nubbins`: trinque indeed, i own a majority of shares
davout: if mp's claim is rejected because he did not in fact act on behalf of bbet, he simply made a gracious donation to random folks of his own volition
trinque: nubbins`: can you invest your own money in your business which is then use to pay liabilites of said business?
trinque: yes you can
PeterL: so either way, the recipients should not send back funds
trinque: now if kakobrekla and mircea_popescu disagree on this point... here we are!
davout: PeterL: there is no "should"
PeterL: thank you for clearing that up for me , davout
trinque: but yes you can do that
nubbins`: as a privately-owned corporation, i can do pretty much whatever the fuck i want
trinque: right.
nubbins`: but if i buy a race car for personal use and charge it to the company
trinque: you are thinking as someone in the fiat world
nubbins`: the public will mock me and call me a fraud
nubbins`: zzzz
nubbins`: so many failed analogies in here
trinque: in point of fact you can buy a race car with company funds, wtf is that
trinque: you own the company!
davout: jurov: so?
jurov: just some precedent
trinque: there's some ridiculous hotdog chain here in TX that owns one iirc with their absurd logo painted on
nubbins`: sure, and if it's only used by the owner to go ATVing up at his cottage
davout: jurov: there's also precedent of dividends being paid twice for a month, and then retained from further divs payments
nubbins`: it's not a business expense anymore
trinque: says what, canadian law?!
nubbins`: why am i engaging in this ridiculous broken analogy
trinque: this idea that there will be some social aggregate before which one can cry for justice...
trinque: death to that.
nubbins`: lol.
nubbins`: you mistake
davout: asciilifeform: do you agree that, if the 17 btc mp sent a second time aren't billed to bbet, it follows that this second transaction can't come in deduction of bbet liabilities to bettors/addresses?
nubbins`: i'm not crying for justice
nubbins`: there's no body to appeal to for justice
nubbins`: i'm just pointing a finger and calling a thing by name.
PeterL: either mp sent his own coin, and recipients get to keep it, or mp sent bbet coin, and davout would be justified in withholding futher payment from those addresses
nubbins`: yep
asciilifeform: davout: aha
PeterL: when does Davout make this big decision?
nubbins`: two weeks from receipt of all goods, iirc
asciilifeform: davout: my argument in the beginning of this mega-thread was that to give ~all bettors the same fraction of the haircut~ is 'communism' because they are in fact ~unequal~ in crafting their misfortune.
asciilifeform: davout: which is a separate issue.
nubbins`: O.O
davout: PeterL: yeah, that's pertty much the conclusion i came to so far
davout: asciilifeform: i'd argue communism would actually be the opposite
trinque: if mp declared he had loaned that coin to his business, who can say otherwise, and why?
davout: let's not go down this road :D
trinque: serious question imo
nubbins`: i guess kako can
nubbins`: because it's in the listing agreement
nubbins`: that any weird bullshit has to get approved by both
asciilifeform: davout: so the thieving swine who pocketed the windfall, KNEW whose coin it was, and what will happen to bbet, a 0-asset corp, when it is missing, and did nothing - have no greater share of responsibility than other bettors ?
nubbins`: and this is some weird bullshit
nubbins`: lol.
davout: trinque: http://mpex.co/?mpsic=S.BBET see 3.2. (d)
assbot: S.BBET last 26021@0.00002500 ... ( http://bit.ly/1SucmwO )
nubbins`: THIEVING SWINE?!
nubbins`: gtfo
davout: "(d) All decisions with regards to any aspect of BitBet, measures taken in regards to any aspect of BitBet operation, any actions, activities or agreements involving BitBet will require unanimous agreement of all the representatives of BitBet. Any such decision, measure, action, activity or agreement which fails to obtain unanimous agreement of all BitBet representatives is void and unenforceable. "
nubbins`: just as well to call bbet a thieving swine for keeping that poor asshole's 10 btc that showed up late.
nubbins`: asciilifeform this is taking this piss even for you.
nubbins`: egregious
asciilifeform: nubbins`: it is described in the manual, what will happen if you send to a closed bet.
nubbins`: yep, agreed.
nubbins`: you clearly failed to grasp my statement
nubbins`: it is described in the manual of common sense what will happen if a fool pays a debt twice
nubbins`: if you send BTC to an address i own, i'm not a thieving swine regardless of whether you meant to send it.
nubbins`: holy cow.
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1439164 <<< the way i understand the listing is that everything had to be approved by both, it usually happened retroactively with kakobrekla signing statements, until he didn't☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 19:06:41; nubbins`: that any weird bullshit has to get approved by both
trinque: davout: yes that does seem to cover it clearly, though it could be argued that this fell under existing agreed division of responsibility
davout: asciilifeform: if claims are against addresses you can't assign intentions to them!
nubbins`: davout asciilifeform is mixing metaphors like a vitamix today
asciilifeform: thing is, regardless of how this is settled, there was a catastrophic failure in 'protocol vs promise' land where bbet never nailed down what ~exactly~ bet winners are promised.
davout: trinque: see previous comment, approval was usually expressed after the fact, until it didn't
nubbins`: asciilifeform agreed
asciilifeform: so it will be defined retroactively.
asciilifeform: by davout.
nubbins`: pretty seat-of-the-pants in retrospect, huh.
asciilifeform: because he picked up the knife.
trinque nods
trinque: part of the lesson here is just how explicitly the parts of the agreement involving moving coin *must* be
trinque: *defined
asciilifeform: trinque has it.
nubbins`: yeah
davout: yep
nubbins`: imo that's one of mp's biggest problems
nubbins`: doesn't put enough forethought / planning into things
trinque: it was a contract between two parties.
davout: nubbins`: i disagree
nubbins`: rota mega-loophole comes to mind
davout: heh
nubbins`: sending 20yearplan all those posters to give away to tenants too poor to own computers, in the hope of luring them here (????)
nubbins`: bbet mess
nubbins`: etc
asciilifeform: gotta have PROTOCOL
nubbins`: this you do
asciilifeform: as in, ALGORITHMICALLY evaluatable.
nubbins`: otherwise it's just noise vs noise
asciilifeform: otherwise - soup.
asciilifeform: !s buluceala
assbot: 11 results for 'buluceala' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=buluceala
BingoBoingo: ;;seen ciubob
gribble: I have not seen ciubob.
BingoBoingo: ;;seen eskimociu
gribble: I have not seen eskimociu.
jurov: asciilifeform: this souds like "should reimplement bitbet with ether, referees just click a button, gas gets released algoritmically, no possibility of human error"
jurov: (i surely misread you, but which part here should have been algoritmized?)
davout: jurov: aren't gas and ether two different things?
jurov: that was just malapropismetaphor, i'm interested what would alf algoritmize here
asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1439201 << it is very easy to 'plan' in hindsight.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 19:12:27; nubbins`: doesn't put enough forethought / planning into things
nubbins`: hindsight is indeed 20/20
asciilifeform: 'if i knew where i'd fall, i'dve put something soft down' - ru proverb
nubbins`: "if i knew everyone'd be so mad about these payouts, i would have kept company funds in a separate address"
nubbins`: sorry, that's not a proverb
asciilifeform: jurov: i did not propose to ~automate~ bbet
asciilifeform: jurov: but merely to ~specify~ what it means for 'bbet owes' and 'bbet pays its debt'
asciilifeform: i.e. does it mean 'pays from this here addr to that there at time t'
asciilifeform: or something else.
asciilifeform: so that a bitcoin node can calculate whether it in fact happened.
asciilifeform: when asked to.
asciilifeform: y'know, a ~machine~.
asciilifeform: instead of a buncha rabbis.
asciilifeform: or rabbi from neighbouring shtetl
kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1439145 < this is an interesting q. the second 17 btc was mistakenly sent in bbet name, a mistake for which mp should be liable for.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 18:59:09; davout: asciilifeform: do you agree that, if the 17 btc mp sent a second time aren't billed to bbet, it follows that this second transaction can't come in deduction of bbet liabilities to bettors/addresses?
jurov: such as, bitbet to generate "yes" "no" and "refund" transactions in advance and merely publishes one when time comes?
asciilifeform: jurov: such as.
kakobrekla: in other words: say if i accidental rm -rf the code and db, who is on the line here?
jurov: prolly impossible under current calculation rules
asciilifeform: jurov: yeah it wouldn't work with the time curve
asciilifeform: nor with existing bitcoin
asciilifeform: (where it does no one any good to prove that a tx was encoded at a certain time, the sender can still doublespend the funds)
asciilifeform: i was arguing a more modest point, that if bbet had ~specified~ what it promised to bettors, we would have no thread here.
asciilifeform: the answer - would be obvious to anyone with half a neuron.
asciilifeform: whereas now it is not.
asciilifeform: the whole ~point~, i thought, of bitcoin, is to nuke the buluceala
asciilifeform: and replace it with mechanics.
asciilifeform: protocol, vs promise.
jurov: alternative mechanic brainstorm with current btc: all bets would be scooped to one address per proposition and winners would pe paid from there exclusively
asciilifeform: jurov: imho that would be an improvement
asciilifeform: and it would have cured this particular buluceala - it would be obvious who is paying whom for what at all times.
asciilifeform: but my understanding is that mircea_popescu and kakobrekla deliberately did not build it this way
asciilifeform: ( i have nfi why )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has said that he intends to play the 'all coin is fungible and unidentifiable ' etc. game. which is fine. but what i don't grasp is how it is possible to craft hard record of debt and repayment without some hook on which to hang them.
asciilifeform: how does creditor know he was paid by debtor? how does debtor know he paid creditor ?
PeterL: jurov, wouldn't it be easier, rather than doing two transactions (sweep, then distribute) to just do a single? (bets are used to pay winnings, the 1%fee to a bbet company address)
jurov: PeterL: these tx would be BIG
asciilifeform: jurov: so long as <= 1MB, fine!
jurov: and 1% fees spammy
PeterL: is it really that much bigger than the current version? don't they already do all payout in one txn?
PeterL: what do you mean 1% fee spammy, that is what they take as commision
kakobrekla: asciilifeform there was 1 tx per 1 resolved bet that included all the winners with respective sums - i guess this was deemed sufficient proof
kakobrekla: asciilifeform but it was not written in an explicit way on site
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: aha!
asciilifeform: so then.
kakobrekla: if one was interested on which tx that was - would need to look for that tx in the winners addresses history and establish it from there
asciilifeform: ill-specified agreements lead to one thing,
asciilifeform: a fella with a long, sharp knife,
asciilifeform: called in, to saw the baby in half.
kakobrekla: whut?
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: king solomon's tale
kakobrekla: im aware of that one i just dont see it here
asciilifeform: it means that it is not obvious whether the bettors were in fact partially paid
asciilifeform: or merely 'graciously donated to.'
asciilifeform: (and if so, by whom)
asciilifeform: whereas if spec had been 'winners will receive C coins on addr A from addr B at time T if condition Q' then there would be no puzzle.
kakobrekla: the thing is, i was in charge of x, he was in charge of y. a part of y was 'delivery of bitcoin to winning addresses' which, by mp claims, was done wrongfully (hence the charge)
asciilifeform: kakobrekla: then http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438770 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 15:43:19; asciilifeform: tomorrow i trip over a cable, fall on a button, accidentally fire pistol, the bullet hits another button, sends him 90 btc.
asciilifeform: the counter-argument seems to be that they were somehow 'not really paid by bbet'
asciilifeform: which imho is poppycock
asciilifeform: because if tx-a had never happened, they would-have-been-paid-by-bbet
kakobrekla: the question is wrong. you owe him 100, you send 200 and blame the inanimate fucking object.
asciilifeform: no.
asciilifeform: i would blame him if the next day he still says that i owe 100.
kakobrekla: im not sure we are talking about the same thing here
asciilifeform: regardless of how davout settles this, you gotta have a consistent algebra of debt.
asciilifeform: or you get buluceala and chaos.
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform>how does creditor know he was paid by debtor? how does debtor know he paid creditor ? <<< obvious answer is when the input funds are used for payout
nubbins`: kakobrekla asciilifeform seems to be arguing mostly alternate-universe theories
nubbins`: elbows hitting buttons, bullets hitting buttons, etc
nubbins`: maybe next a dirigible fleet will hit a button?
kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1439239 - see https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=124441.0 and https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=124441.msg1337447#msg1337447 to quote: In order to be able to offer BTC business you must at a minimum be able to correctly and safely handle payments.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 19:21:24; kakobrekla: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1439145 < this is an interesting q. the second 17 btc was mistakenly sent in bbet name, a mistake for which mp should be liable for.
assbot: So you think you're going to start a Bitcoin business, right? ... ( http://bit.ly/1MVvoFd )
assbot: So you think you're going to start a Bitcoin business, right? ... ( http://bit.ly/1q2Ftfv )
nubbins`: lol
nubbins`: hanbot to the rescue again
nubbins`: i think she had a quote somewhere about 0-fee tx expectations too
jurov: nubbins`: no, he proposes strictly determined flow of bitcoins through bitbet
nubbins`: seems sensible to me.
jurov: this can maybe even be abstracted to whole double or triple point accounting
nubbins`: send funds to bet addr. funds remain there. winners and house grab are paid from same.
jurov: that every account in the accounting should have its own btc address
nubbins`: jurov if you'll recall, mp is strictly not doing this
nubbins`: and the division of funds exists on paper only
nubbins`: at least according to him
hanbot: <jurov> and it did not use that to settle later claims << so when actual operator error occurred, mircea_popescu ate it, and your reaction is basically "hey, if he can pay for that, he should pay for this unrelated problem too! let's him pay for everything!", and this amidst weeks of bitching about "bad faith"?
hanbot: the fucking gall seriously.
jurov: yes, fucking gall seriously, sending zerofee tx for ANY reason :)
kakobrekla: and if i delete the bitbet code is mp going to do half the coding?
kakobrekla: and im not saying his job was easy - hence did not want to handle deposits from day 1
kakobrekla: but if you can go around losing bitcoins as you please without consequences the whole thing is, how do you say, moot
jurov: kakobrekla hanbot is trying to explain to everyone that mp, by covering operator error and covering other expenses, earned the moral right to sometimes shift the bill to the shareholders as he deems fit
jurov: and how and whys of this is not to be discussed in any shape or form, to avoid upsetting things
kakobrekla: and im trying to explain that i should be paying for everything im liable for and he should be paying for everything he is liable for.
kakobrekla: but this clearly no longer is the case in #b-a
jurov: well, if you made coding error resulting in 18BTC loss, pushing it to shareholders as "cost of doing business with C machines" would be perfectly fine
kakobrekla: too bad i realize this only now, otherwise would have made such error more often.
jurov: we learn every day.
danielpbarron: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1439254 << not improvement. breaks bbet as a mixer.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 19:26:54; jurov: alternative mechanic brainstorm with current btc: all bets would be scooped to one address per proposition and winners would pe paid from there exclusively
PeterL: ddoes bitbet need to be a mixer?
asciilifeform: if we're subscribing to the 'all coin is fungible' religion, then mixers are a heresy.
danielpbarron: no reason it shouldn't be. the above proposition fixes a non-problem
asciilifeform: or breaks a non-feature.
kakobrekla: bbl
BingoBoingo: <PeterL> ddoes bitbet need to be a mixer? << It was a cool side effect
hanbot: jurov> kakobrekla hanbot is trying to explain to everyone << no dude. i'm trying to point out to YOU that YOU are abusing established good faith.
jurov: well, then i utterly don't get it
asciilifeform: waiwut?
deedbot-: [Daniel P. Barron] A well-ordered family. - http://danielpbarron.com/2016/a-well-ordered-family/
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4131 @ 0.00044447 = 1.8361 BTC [+]
hanbot: jurov if i got plastered and proceeded to crash my car into your house last week and paid for the damages without question, and this week i'm carjacked and hit your house again, you may not use the fact that i happily paid for the former incident as proof that i should pay for the latter, and you may *especially* not attempt to use it as proof while complaining about my "bad faith"
PeterL: BingoBoingo latest qntra s/experience/experienced
BingoBoingo: ty
jurov: hanbot i want first and foremost to clarify the point that mp, by mucking with zerofee tx, left the car unlocked overnight in dark alley
jurov: which fact he vehementhly denies and bullshits around, straining MY good will in the process
asciilifeform: reactor test?
asciilifeform: ( i still have nfi WHY he send a 0fee ! )
jurov: so, what is he going to test next time? and how would i know hw wont decide do to bill it against me?
jurov: *he won't
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1439262 <<< not a problem per se☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 19:31:01; jurov: PeterL: these tx would be BIG
PeterL: asciilifeform mpb apparently calculated his transaction did not need one, it was wrong
asciilifeform: davout: it might be problem, if some clever fella sends the 1MB tx with 0fee...
PeterL: if mp would share mpb txn-fee setting algorithm, then you could say why
davout: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1439329 <<< this!☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 20:14:39; asciilifeform: if we're subscribing to the 'all coin is fungible' religion, then mixers are a heresy.
asciilifeform: now, i can see running a mixer from pure profit motive, like an atheist might run a kosher butcher shop
asciilifeform: but not if it gets in the way of his main business
asciilifeform: imho sacrificing anything worthwhile 'because it will break mixer' is lunacy.
danielpbarron: the thing proposed isn't worthwile
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: as i understand, it was proposed as to one possible solution to formalizing the promise made by bbet when a bet is made.
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: and if you do not think it needs formalizing, 'we could only all agree if we all saw the light' (WHICH LIGHT?!@!!) - you are gravely mistaken.
danielpbarron: look at the bet page for a resolved bet. You'll see that BitBet claims how much it has sent and to which address it has been sent. This is sufficient for agreement.
asciilifeform: so why should it not claim the doublesend as part of what was owed ?
mircea_popescu: le log.
danielpbarron: sure it doesn't fit in with your retro-actively claiming the double payment was actually a partial early payment of other bets..
asciilifeform: what, precisely, was promised, that contradicts this, danielpbarron ?
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: or, rephrase the question, between whom and whom did the debt exist ?
danielpbarron: the pages for those other bets do not display the correct amounts... no?
asciilifeform: and what was agreed upon as 'settlement' ?
asciilifeform: did the settlement formally include an originating addr for bbet ?
asciilifeform: kakobrekla tells us that it never did.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438892 << you apparently need another hammer fucking five times ?☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 18:03:06; asciilifeform: they were PAID.
mircea_popescu: what happened to that ? forgotten so soon ?!
asciilifeform: 10 times!
asciilifeform: i;ll take the ball-peen plox
mircea_popescu: yes but you can't simply be argued out of a position then come back with it two hours later.
mircea_popescu: makes one thing he's wasting his time with it.
mircea_popescu: you realise this sort of argument is actually a very highly skilled, expensive sort of job.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i argued self into the position that the original system was ill-defined
asciilifeform: and ergo broken.
mircea_popescu: everything is broken in retrospect.
asciilifeform: and that settlement is now a religious matter.
asciilifeform: as in, the answer is not producible from the axioms.
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438880 << own it is not in discussion here. "please make sure you aren't using it in any way that may conflict with our future notions of what it may mean" however is nonsense.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 17:59:46; kakobrekla: from the first paragraph of the bb faq: The beneficiary address is never changed under any circumstances. Please make sure you own it!
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your notion that anything but "religious matters" exists is quaint and endearing, i guess, but of no practical value or import.
asciilifeform: fact remains, this whole thing could have been an algorithmic question, but now is rabbinical.
asciilifeform: because folks wouldn't nail down their axioms.
mircea_popescu: yes, the code could have been more bloated
asciilifeform: and yes, i fully expect rabbi to say that ~everything is rabbinical question~ aha.
mircea_popescu: that doesn't result in better security, but does result in more complex rabinic arguments down the road.
asciilifeform: when done by idiots, yes.
mircea_popescu: it's fascinating that in one field you'd make EXACTLY the choices you unerstand to be wrong in the other.
mircea_popescu: as if you'd have decided where to eat and where to shit or somesuch.
asciilifeform: when done correctly - no. we don't sit here and argue about how the modular exponentiations came out.
mircea_popescu: that is a peculiarly convenient place. not all places are like that.
mircea_popescu: sure, if the world were a spherical chicken, etc.
asciilifeform: my whole mission on planet3 is to multiply 'the places like that.'
mircea_popescu: ie, nuke it ?
mircea_popescu: places like that are few and far between for good reason.
mircea_popescu: they're boring, for one, and actually unlivable, which is the same thing.
asciilifeform: we don't live in the water mains
asciilifeform: but like'em nevertheless.
asciilifeform: and yes, inside of a water pipe it is very boring.
hanbot: jurov what you've got is neither a point nor a fact but a contention, and while it may inform your opinion on what your own or other people's actions should be, that is ALL IT CAN DO; it does not in any way grant you the ability to use established good faith thusly.
jurov: how do i "use established good faith thusly", again?
mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1438940 << you were.☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 18:20:49; asciilifeform: note that i am not arguing that this is a moral obligation
asciilifeform: was i?
mircea_popescu: yes.
hanbot: jurov http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1439313 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 19:51:30; hanbot: <jurov> and it did not use that to settle later claims << so when actual operator error occurred, mircea_popescu ate it, and your reaction is basically "hey, if he can pay for that, he should pay for this unrelated problem too! let's him pay for everything!", and this amidst weeks of bitching about "bad faith"?
asciilifeform: well my argument was 'in order for bbet paying them X to be bbet's obligation, they oughta HAVE paid back the double.'
mircea_popescu: jesus fuck look at that crap. i'm done reading this log, wtf, still with the idiots talking ?
asciilifeform: apparently all of us but mircea_popescu are idiots ?
mircea_popescu: i'm not going to read further logs, at all, for as long as nubbins` can speak into them.
mircea_popescu: anyone wants something to me, say it when i'm around.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: y'know you could kick him.
asciilifeform: if you felt like it.
mircea_popescu: but otherwise i've just nullrouted log.b-a
asciilifeform: l0l!
asciilifeform: isn't a lord entitled to a formal lowering into pederasty ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform get lost with the bs. i'm going to do your job ? not fucking interested. you wanna talk to him, do, enjoy, who am i to get in the way of idiocy.
mircea_popescu: entitled to whatever the fuck you wish.
asciilifeform: i suppose this is yet another thing that we never specified.
mircea_popescu: i'm not however your motherfather, to support you no matter where your head goes.
asciilifeform: (what happens when lords a,b,c hate p,q,r,s and wont talk)
mircea_popescu: no matter of hate.
asciilifeform: in churches this is called 'schism'
asciilifeform: and leads to moar churchez.
mircea_popescu: oh get the fuck outta here.
mircea_popescu: not a matter of hate or anything fo the sort.
hanbot: this "lord" shit is pretty ridiculous by now eh.
asciilifeform: hanbot: i did not invent it
mircea_popescu: hanbot i;m no longer going to be using it, no.
mircea_popescu: it is nice and good to wish to turn some kids into some men. but the wishing does not do the turning, and they all got toys to play with so - there it goes.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: on this i must agree. it ~was~ ill-specified
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it is the priviledge of the great to try and raise the crowd ; it is the priviledge of the crowd to prove that this can not be done. very well specified, and working as intended.
mircea_popescu: schism, listen to him go.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 1st thing that always gets raised, when you raise a crowd, is its opinion of self.
asciilifeform: sadly.
mircea_popescu: yawell, fuck it.
mircea_popescu: at least if i throw money at whores i get a dance.
jurov: hanbot actually, i was NOT writing it in that context, it was in context of whether mispayments were ever considered against future bet winnings. so you did yourself disservice by connecting these things, and it's actually interesting you keep doing it
asciilifeform: anyway i'm not personally mentally invested in any of this, and won't shed so much as nanoliter of tear .
asciilifeform: i like mircea_popescu because he's a fella who tips pencils.
jurov: yes keep assuring us
asciilifeform: and not because he 'raises us to lords' or what.
BingoBoingo: In other poor-a-lulz https://archive.is/UbUl0
trinque: this pissing in the face of people who try to create worlds gives me zero cause for optimism about the future.
trinque: ^ slave culture
mircea_popescu: jurov i want you to explain your notion of "some precedent". use clear language and be sure you can stick with its meaning.
jurov: precedent of whether mispayments were ever considered against future bet winnings
mircea_popescu: let me point out to you that bitbet came down over my realisation that this is how you lot think. stop fucking thinking like this before i have to cut more heads.
jurov: and i actually mentioned the "good faith" question like 3 times in two days. and i don't like to repeat myself. were not for hanbot, it would be well safely buried in the logs by now.
jurov: if that's what you want?
mircea_popescu: i'm sorry, is what i want ?
jurov: for me not to "use established good faith thusly" or some such
jurov: nfi, actually
mircea_popescu: that didn't make any sense.
hanbot: jesus fuck jurov, were you bitching about bad faith or not? were you using the fact mp ate a loss before as a justification for why he should do it again or not?
jurov: 1. yes 2. no
jurov: re:2 i was being IRONIC. and waited whether you take the bait
hanbot: aha. well, 1's abuse, 2's...oh ffs.
mircea_popescu: irony in irc! good lord!
jurov: <irony> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=23-03-2016#1439319 </irony>☝︎
assbot: Logged on 23-03-2016 20:04:38; jurov: kakobrekla hanbot is trying to explain to everyone that mp, by covering operator error and covering other expenses, earned the moral right to sometimes shift the bill to the shareholders as he deems fit
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform>apparently all of us but mircea_popescu are idiots ? << you just now realizing?
asciilifeform realizes that NOBODY agrees with asciilifeform on > 1 piece of this. but unsurprise.
asciilifeform: (e.g., i never saw the ' mircea_popescu ought to personally eat the expense ' angle )
nubbins`: <+hanbot>this "lord" shit is pretty ridiculous by now eh. << actually fucking ridiculous from the start, but with occasional convenient side effects
jurov: asciilifeform: you know, hanbot is trained to see such angles :D
asciilifeform: jurov: i have nfi.
trinque: the petulance in here lately is revolting.
asciilifeform: and not only i have nfi, but i sorta wish i had taken vacation to the jungle for past 3 wks.
asciilifeform: and not logged in.
trinque: why? everyone got to satisfy his emotional needs, feel a part of the process, get his voice heard.
trinque: it was a great time
asciilifeform: mno.
jurov: very ungreat time
asciilifeform: trinque: stage is set for various folks doing smashingly dumb things because 'would otherwise lose face.'
asciilifeform: the only people for whom this is 'great time' is: the enemy.
trinque: I couldn't agree more with that.
asciilifeform: we are pretty much reenacting republical side of spanish civil war here.
asciilifeform: *republican
jurov: well, i feel i'd lose face either way
asciilifeform: i dun evenhave a face.
trinque: to invoke my upbringing... y'all ever heard of another man's business?
asciilifeform: i bet ninjashitgun & co are rubbing their cocks raw with glee reading the last 3 wks of logz.
trinque: maybe time to let the case be handled by davout and move on to better things
trinque: lest we continue to look like emotionally crippled morons
asciilifeform: i cannot speak for others, but i'm not particularly concerned with what i look like.
asciilifeform: if i'm an imbecile, i will remain one whether 'looking like it' or not.
asciilifeform: if anyone forgot why i'm here,
asciilifeform: it is because mircea_popescu invited me. and i only stayed because he works with me on planeteering tech.
asciilifeform: (and along the way teaches me useful stuff.)
trinque: that amounts to "I just want to" and saying the world is somebody else's problem
trinque: and this world fucking sucks
asciilifeform: well no, planeteering is a business for many folk.
asciilifeform: terraform the mournful pesthole, one square metre at a time
asciilifeform: trinque: i bring it up because i reject the accusation of partaking in the emotional wreck.
asciilifeform: i do not have strong emotions about bbet, or the participating folks.
asciilifeform: and by commenting, was fulfilling what i see as my obligation to work in the forum.
asciilifeform: and lay out what i see as logical case, etc.
asciilifeform: precisely the opposite of 'i just want to x, leave me be.'
trinque: I can see your perspective there
trinque: I reject the notion of having no face entirely
nubbins`: <+mircea_popescu>let me point out to you that bitbet came down over my realisation that this is how you lot think. stop fucking thinking like this before i have to cut more heads. <<< or, put another way, "stfu talking dangerous talk, alf, or s.nsa is next"
trinque: ^ see, this is fucking emotional nonsense
trinque: and serves merely to satisfy something within nubbins`
trinque: given he has no business with any of these companies, he's what? serving the public?
trinque: there is no public here.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: if tomorrow mircea_popescu decides that i am an imbecile and never speaks to me again, i will build exactly same items. and even offer him free sample!
trinque: the way one forgets and falls back into the patterns of his youth.. it almost makes one believe in danielpbarron's demons :p
trinque goes to cleanse the vile spirits elsewhere
nubbins`: man, if there's one person i stopped reading earlier today, it's trinque
nubbins`: "stahp fighting you guys!!!!!!" x 1000
jurov: trinque you aren't at least rubbed the wrong way by mp's approach?
nubbins`: trinque is too much a fanboi to be rubbed
nubbins`: everybody should be turbo polite & proper, except of course mp, in trinque's mind
asciilifeform: nubbins`: what am i then. in what box do i live in, in your cosmos ?
jurov: just to complete the picture, i had to privately calm down several people who were utterly freaked out :(
nubbins`: nevermind that mp and his gurlfriend are the biggest toilet mouths in bitcoin
nubbins`: capable of literally nothing. but hyperbole
nubbins`: and rhetoric
asciilifeform: nubbins`: and here i was thinking i could at least achieve championship as arse.
BingoBoingo: https://i.sli.mg/kslkpx.jpg
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1WJCVNJ )
nubbins`: asciilifeform not in this world!~
nubbins`: <+asciilifeform>nubbins`: what am i then. in what box do i live in, in your cosmos ? << the box where deference trumps cold reason
nubbins`: obvz
asciilifeform: nubbins`: so far the point of greatest disagreement between him and i is whether to talk to nubbins` !
danielpbarron: i really wish you wouldn't
nubbins`: if wishes were poops...
nubbins`: so, how does everyone feel about there no longer being a lordship?
trinque: nubbins`: you're thoroughly dishonest.
nubbins`: you're thoroughly misinformed
nubbins`: you're also thoroughly welcome to tell someone who cares
trinque: !rate -3 nubbins` treats the forum like reddit, behaves like a fool
assbot: -3 is not registered in WoT.
trinque: !rate nubbins` -3 treats the forum like reddit, behaves like a fool
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/630ea80168b60fd9
danielpbarron: yay!
trinque: !v assbot:trinque.rate.nubbins`.-3:5140039d607c3f6511a9c76ed0a7086f0aa4bf6ff7012dfc451f209d543b97aa
assbot: Successfully added a rating of -3 for nubbins` with note: treats the forum like reddit, behaves like a fool
danielpbarron: !gettrust assbot nubbins`
assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user nubbins`: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 6 via 14 connections. |http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=assbot&to=nubbins%60 | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/nubbins%60/
danielpbarron: 6 more clicks
nubbins`: lel
nubbins`: cool story
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: dun work this way. he's on the l1.
danielpbarron: we don't know this yet!
trinque: that's immutable is it?
nubbins`: hahaha
nubbins`: oh dear
asciilifeform: trinque: well it stays until manually knob turned
nubbins`: if we took all the bees out of danielpbarron's and trinque's panties, we could make honey.
trinque: look at the way this guy plays to the crowd, like it's there, and it matters
trinque ignores nubbins`
nubbins`: THANKS
nubbins`: about fuckin time
asciilifeform: trinque: i suppose that if we imitate republican spain long enough, mp will take his ball and go home, and there will be no l1 etc.
asciilifeform: i kinda wonder how this would be going down if we were using gossipd.
asciilifeform: clearly, graph would split, but into what.
nubbins`: people who do things on one side. mp, dpb, trinque, hanbot on other. alf in middle
asciilifeform: nubbins`: no middle.
jurov: we're not splitting,for most people here this discussion isn't enough to get nuclear
nubbins`: ^
nubbins`: so far it's only mp and trinque unable to work it out
asciilifeform: jurov: thought was not about 'most people', but about mp
danielpbarron: those of you allowing nubbins` to rile you up are in the wrong, and it does nobody but "the enemy" to persist in pretending like there's still something to argue about
danielpbarron: does nobody any good*
nubbins`: thanks daniel for reminding us how to think
asciilifeform: nubbins`: what i don't get is why you continue here, instead of opening a:
asciilifeform: #trotsky-assets
asciilifeform: write own arsebot (nubbot?)
asciilifeform: with own l1...
asciilifeform: etc
nubbins`: i actually didn't realize mp owned assbot
trinque: because he's fine leaving things in the state they are now
trinque: enjoys the shit
trinque wonders at walking asciilifeform through the mechanics of a troll
asciilifeform: trinque: i am beginning to see mp's pov on this, now.
nubbins`: asciilifeform i stuck around here for the interesting convos, verbal diarrhoea from mp aside.
nubbins`: mp is just a guy who plays MMORPGs and wanks on irc all day, to me
asciilifeform: nubbins`: you can have'em with me in pm if it strikes your fancy. when i'm home, which is maybe 1.2 hr/day. hell, i still talk to vex!
jurov: trinque, danielpbarron: i am not fine with things, what do you think i can do?
nubbins`: whether he comes, goes, ignores me, shuts down his companies, erases his little lords list, w/e. don't care.
nubbins`: asciilifeform there's plenty of folk i like talking to here besides you :D
asciilifeform: nubbins`: happy to hear.
nubbins`: yeah
nubbins`: glad trinque ignored me, it was annoying having him bleat at me all the time
danielpbarron: jurov, get fine with them already. You are wrong.
asciilifeform: nubbins`: but i can hardly picture that ~this~ is what it looks like.
fluffypony: nubbins`: I've added you to my Official 2016 T-shirt Printer List
nubbins`: don't get me wrong, holding mp's feet to the fire is a good lel
fluffypony: ok you're the only one there
fluffypony: but still
fluffypony: you're on a list!
nubbins`: but really all i'm doing here is filling in the time between layers of ink
nubbins`: fluffypony 8)
jurov: danielpbarron: do you have any idea how many times i heard that in my life? surely you must have did too, did you likewise obey them?
danielpbarron: no, most people never word it that way
jurov: so?
jurov: when they did word it right, you have obeyed?
nubbins`: danielpbarron is pretty much hanbot-level muppet
danielpbarron: if they were right, yes
danielpbarron: I have had my mind changed by sound reasoning
jurov: i wish i got some sound reasoning here, too
danielpbarron: what's still bothering you?
jurov: it goes back long time to things like the wences lawsuit, i likened the situation to mpex having a sinkhole in the foyer
jurov: with label "whatever falls in, is donation to shareholders"
danielpbarron: !s wences lawsuit
assbot: 0 results for 'wences lawsuit' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=wences+lawsuit
jurov: the rota thing
punkman: nubbins`: i actually didn't realize mp owned assbot << I thought kakobrekla owned assbot
jurov: wences sending rounded amoutn and the suing over fiduciary responisibility
jurov: *then siung
jurov: sorry: *wences sending rounded amount and then suing over fiduciary responsibility
nubbins`: punkman oh my god, you're right.
danielpbarron: ah this http://trilema.com/2013/case-i-wences-vs-mpex-breach-of-fiduciary-duty/
assbot: Case I - Wences vs MPEx, Breach of fiduciary duty on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1PsaeiI )
danielpbarron: what's the issue? MPEx says send X. Guy sends Y instead.
jurov: this was made deliberate by design and easy to avoid
jurov: i just can't run business that way
danielpbarron: so then don't use MPEx
punkman: considering everyone is using private addresses these days, I wonder if donations are still a thing
jurov: no actually i did what you're asking "maybe i'm wrong, get fine with it"
jurov: but this happened again and again, bitbet being last case
nubbins`: like i said before, popescu is basically a better-read karpeles
nubbins`: shooting from the hip
danielpbarron: punkman, indeed that might be why private addresses became a thing. account holders signing agreement that anything sent to that address gets credited to account. Since we know that there are side-contracts for the less-than-50-btc renewal of keys, this should be possible
danielpbarron: jurov, what happened again and again? people not following the rules? How is the a strike against the rule maker?
jurov: no, the very rules going against my values
nubbins`: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-03-2016#1424480 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 07-03-2016 13:32:31; danielpbarron: i'm not interested in bitcoin if he's not interested in it
jurov: and that not even for a good discernible reason
danielpbarron: so what then, you need to oust the current rule maker and then this place will be worth inhabiting? I think not.
nubbins`: lel
jurov: you're under impression i'm trying to oust him? just by reminding him he may have done an error?
nubbins`: "you need to get the rats out of the kitchen and then later you'll want to make a meal there? i think not"
danielpbarron: you just said the rules go against your values, jurov ; not that he made an error
jurov: the rules apparently is that if he claims that was not a mistake but mining cartel, that is beyond discussion.
danielpbarron: yes. that is true.
danielpbarron: the only one who can violate an MPEx listing agreement is the non-MPEx party signing it
nubbins`: o.O
danielpbarron: which I think is made clear enough by the line about how it's the sole discression of MPEx to decide how to resolve issues
pete_dushenski: asciilifeform: lol funny you should ask. i just came across a research paper on very much this topic the other day, which i've now uploaded on my site for posterity (and your consideration) : http://www.contravex.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Behavioral-Despair-in-the-Talmud.pdf
assbot: ... ( http://bit.ly/1PsaZrS )
pete_dushenski: it addresses exactly the "can i pick it up if it's dropped?" question
pete_dushenski: which afaicantell maps to the log discussion
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: two bucks says that the miata owner is not the least bit displeased that two honies romped around in his ride. he's surely sorry he missed it! jealous wife, on the other hand...
pete_dushenski goes to look up used miatas...
nubbins` goes to print layer 7 of new btc posters
nubbins`: but first, jazz cig
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: The miata's just one of those vehicles that looks worse than it should because of poor aesthetic direction on other motor vehicles
pete_dushenski: when all the world's an obeast, the skinny girl looks like a freak, aha
nubbins`: speaking of obeast
nubbins`: i've shed 26lb since xmas!
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: It's just a shame they've stopped making new Miatas
pete_dushenski: nubbins`: you must be on mp's "nobutter4u" slavegirl diet
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: twas but a flesh wound (ie. name change)
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: No. The most recent thing They've attached the name to in the US is clearly not actually a Miata. I'm not invested enough in the question though to make a hard determination on when the newer vehicles stopped becoming miatas
nubbins`: pete_dushenski funny enough, no diet
nubbins`: i just started keeping track of what i ate
nubbins`: not restricting, just observing
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: purist would argue that NA (1st ge) was the only true miata, but that ND (4th gen, MY2016) is a strong return to form.
mrottenkolber: I know you are all gonna hate this, but for what its worth, I got some Git/V interop going: https://github.com/eugeneia/vgit
assbot: GitHub - eugeneia/vgit: Git commands for V interoperability. ... ( http://bit.ly/1pIXTSD )
pete_dushenski: nubbins`: big data ftw
mrottenkolber: Should be enough to produce vdiffs and signatures from git repos, for whoever might want that, and god forbid, press “v signed” branches from Git (ducks).
mrottenkolber: Relevan: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-01-2016#1375281 ☝︎
assbot: Logged on 18-01-2016 16:15:45; ascii_butugychag: btw i hope everybody understands that life with 'v' is always going to resemble dark age blood sports like cvs, etc. far more than modern greased poles (e.g., 'git')
jurov: mrottenkolber: it's fine, as long as this won't cause V to take up complexity from git
asciilifeform: mrottenkolber: you are, i'm afraid, wasting your time.
asciilifeform: i created v specifically as an anti-git.
asciilifeform: !rate nubbins` -1 TILT. see also http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=08-03-2016#1426922 ☝︎
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/64f5a973744c904c
assbot: Logged on 08-03-2016 18:12:51; asciilifeform: nubbins`: dead pilots in the '30s-'40s were sometimes found with the control joystick literally torn from its moorings. they pulled against jammed flight surfaces and physically destroyed the stick. it did not help.
asciilifeform: !v assbot:asciilifeform.rate.nubbins`.-1:7a5b27d060de53172fc3ed4fd6bffd76e9ca7031faf2054fd3007dfdd9cd81da
assbot: Successfully updated the rating for nubbins` from 1 to -1 with note: TILT. see also http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=08-03-2016#1426922
asciilifeform: sorry nubs you really earned this.
asciilifeform: mp may have dropped a cig, and lit the forest on fire. some of us tried to help stamp out the flames. others - fanned them.
asciilifeform: i may not count for much, but will not countenance the fanning.
shinohai: aha
mircea_popescu: mk, so upon consideration, the issue here is that me nulling the logs is at best a stopgap, and no sort of long term or tenable solution. there's certainly no sense in me continuing to pour words into a bag i won't read the logs of, wtf.
mircea_popescu: while it is incontrivable that the lordship has failed utterly, and is in no sense the guarantor of keeping spammers and idiots away from the forum as intended (youhadonejob.png!!!), that is a distinct and separate problem from what to do with #b-a.
mircea_popescu: reviewing that, i can either 1) log as mod and ban the schmuck or else 2) ask kakobrekla to alter the l1.
asciilifeform bbl
mircea_popescu: 1 has the manifest disadvantage that it is an exact replay of the bitbet drama. it may be argued that it is "clean" and "elegant" and "all i wanted was to protect you, son", which is so much idiotic patriarchical nonsense it makes my skin crawl - and thus let's extend kakobrekla in public the same sympathies extended in private ;
mircea_popescu: 2 requires the man who just saw the product of his not-inconsequential efforts die over "not doing what mp says, with money" have to choose whether to do what mp says... but with people, this time. we did in fact start this channel together, just like bitbet, and he did do a lot of infrastructure work here, just as there. so... what do ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno, but the fact remains this nonsense can't continue, if for no reason then because i won't be any part of the most recent attempt of fiat world to reclaim the republic. so for the sake of variety, let's go with : kakobrekla, you willing to take nubbins off the l1 ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: fwiw i just finally barfed.
mircea_popescu: funny how that works!
asciilifeform: there are limits even to my iron stomach.
asciilifeform: (which needs to be refueled, bbl)
danielpbarron: !gettrust assbot nubbins`
assbot: Trust relationship from user assbot to user nubbins`: Level 1: 1, Level 2: 3 via 13 connections. |http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/trust/?from=assbot&to=nubbins%60 | http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/nubbins%60/
danielpbarron: only 3 more clicks. That's two changing their mind, or 3 making theirs up
pete_dushenski: after skipping half of today's lengthy logs myself, i'm all too happy to do my part
pete_dushenski: !unrate nubbins`
assbot: Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/a2ba11679e8e1641
danielpbarron: aw that's only a single click, but better than nothing
pete_dushenski: !v assbot:pete_dushenski.unrate.nubbins`:184255cc92498ebb12d4e0df4b5f9aa78e0552304d9cbfd8fb95dc8a5ea07d61
assbot: Successfully unrated nubbins`
pete_dushenski: anyways, my rating him made no goddam sense to begin with
pete_dushenski: but hey, i was young
danielpbarron: if just one more switches from positive to negative we can see once and for all if a lord can be !down'd
mircea_popescu: and to be perfectly clear - it ~was~ my stupid fucking idea of seeding the lordship off the stats page on roughly the basis of activity that got us in this mess.
mircea_popescu: TOO FUCKING SOON OMFG.
pete_dushenski: lol more than a few of us probably also thought we'd be riding the btc-waves to being deca+millionaires by 2016. this bitcoin thing is taking far longer than i, at least, had anticipated.
trinque: better to learn to be a man first than suddenly have so much gunpowder
trinque departs til tomorrow
pete_dushenski: cheers mate
pete_dushenski: but ya, being as rich as i thought i ~wanted~ to be by this point would not doubt cause as many problems as i imagined it'd solve. besides, what fucking problems ??