log☇︎
16100+ entries in 0.135s
verisimilitude: I've had or seen a number of discussions concerning such high-level machines with C programmers and whatnot. It's comedic. A C programmer will be the first to prove how type-checking in hardware and other things most assuredly result in some minute loss of efficiency or power or this or that and so is bad, but then turn around and discuss how brilliant the zero-terminated string is and how it's not that inefficient.
asciilifeform: on top of this, there's a coupla kilometer of thread in the #t logs re what made the thing interesting.
verisimilitude: Unfortunately for me, I don't own a Lisp Machine.
asciilifeform: the basic approach is not only sound, however, but the only ~possible~ sound approach -- you bake a cpu that 'understands types', as discussed in e.g. http://www.loper-os.org/?p=46 and http://www.loper-os.org/?p=55 , and go up from there.
asciilifeform: entirely extinct, casualty of politics and jawdroppingly-inept management; but item to some extent is still available as a fossilized specimen for archaeology.
verisimilitude: Sure; even though it's only a thought I've made little progress towards at the moment, care for a light description of how I'd do it for a Common Lisp?
asciilifeform: ( if yer using a heathen gnat, and a gcc5+istic one, it will output the familiar gcc5isms; but we aint using one )
asciilifeform: trinque: fwiw i routinely disasm what my gnat shits forth, and haven't yet found any 'surprises', so if ye olde gnat is indeed thompsonistic, it is quite subtle , rather than hammer-in-yer-face 'here's a MB of ??? that phones home to mars'
trinque: yep, already need working vtools to run the bootstrapper, so it's not as if there isn't a list of requirements for build env
asciilifeform: trinque: seems to me that for nao, a working binary build of ave1-gnat gotta be included in standard cuntoo, same as working kernel etc
asciilifeform: the ultimate win would be to get something other than gnat ( say, an adatron implemented in cl... ) that can build something resembling a working gnat. but sadly i suspect this is yrs away. ☟︎
asciilifeform: right, this is a must-have
trinque: considering a process that involves "bolt your hand-built gcc here" and then it rebuilds
trinque: asciilifeform: the lack of a binary-reproducible gcc really puckers when considering how to write an ebuild for ave1's gcc
asciilifeform: theoretically it may be possible to build it with a diff adatron, but gnat is the only openly published one
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: sadly ~all~ gnats require a working , existing gnat, to build
verisimilitude: When I did look into building GNAT from source, I was told in the documentation I'd already need a working GNAT; does ave1's avoid this? Then again, I suppose I could just use the GNAT I alread have on this other machine for that, if it became too inconvenient to use both.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: tell us a bit re what you're building ?
asciilifeform: so in principle it doesn't particularly matter what flavour of linux you're on (unless want to ~rebuild~ it, then will take a bit of sweat)
asciilifeform: incidentally if you're on a x86/x64 box, ave1's gnat will run right as-is, it is built statically and outputs strictly static bins.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: try building ave1's , unless your iron is quite exotic you will probably find that you can build a cross-gnat that outputs bins for it.
asciilifeform: this is not in general a problem, e.g. ave1's gnat works just fine as cross-compiler.
asciilifeform: most folx find that it takes them a coupla days to even get 'hello world' to ~compile~.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: imho it is a quite fine lang for building systems where 'surprises' are utterly impermissible. but it does take work.
verisimilitude: The Ada program I have planned is in a similar way unconcerned with some of the more advanced features, because much of it is very concrete by now; it shouldn't even need to allocate memory until I have an undo and redo system in it.
asciilifeform: ( and already produced a self-contained, glibc-free retargetable gnat, works a++ for e.g. arm64 )
asciilifeform: ave1 is baking a gnat that can build for 'bare irons'.
asciilifeform: plenty of ongoing work, too. diana_coman for instance is determining a safely usable subset of ada tasking system.
asciilifeform: there is not presently a paper book that will teach you ~this~ lang, if you're ready to learn it you can do so from asciilifeform , diana_coman , et al. published works.
asciilifeform: eventually cracked open some bookz and determined, over course of a year+, a subset of ada which roughly corresponds to 'c without the pointeristic retardation', and used this.
asciilifeform: i explored various alts (e.g. standard-ml sans gc) but found that if the lang produces a binary that cannot be cleanly disasmed and shown to functionally correspond with the source , also cannot in good conscience use such a thing.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: in 2016 i found that i gotta write a safety-critical arithmetic system (nao known as ffa) and found that i cannot in good conscience do it in anyffin but ada.
verisimilitude: As a Lisp programmer, what drew you to Ada, asciilifeform?
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: there are other langs with strong typing, but afaik ada is the only 1 where a) with actual standard b) doesn't drag along a gargantuan runtime that won't sit down in small single-chip boxes etc
verisimilitude: It's a nice language, so far, but I've yet to even finish learning all of it.
verisimilitude: There's the saying one shouldn't learn a language that doesn't change the way one thinks; I figured if I would learn at least one language with keyword-based syntax, strong static typing, a lack of advanced metaprogramming, among other qualities, that I should learn Ada.
asciilifeform: verisimilitude: if/when you want to swap the key, ask (politely) trinque , it's a manual process
trinque: verisimilitude: no reason not to give it a go now
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/02/a-few-things-to-remember/ << Bimbo.Club -- A few things to remember.
a111: Logged on 2014-10-10 00:58 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 10k line/250kb limit. if you overrun it you get shot << chuck moore (of 'forth' fame) seems kinda in favour of this. as am i. a kind of 'environmentalism' i've been advocating for many years (intellectual pollution doesn't blacken mere lungs. it makes everybody - stupider. measurably.)
a111: Logged on 2015-09-02 22:09 mircea_popescu: there is clearly a problem here. ideal objects (such as software) are not comensurate with physical objects. this attempt to "engineer programs like screws" was a reasonable first hack at the novel an dunexpected problem,
mircea_popescu: "i can't do any ffa work because i'm working on a manner in which to do it that wouldn't produce the idle inquiry of loc 6 months in"
asciilifeform: i even own a vise-grip.
mircea_popescu: inwashes people, destroying their value systems and their trust in their own understanding and appreciation of the world they live in, but if you're very good at it, you can create a new world for them in which all of this makes sense.
mircea_popescu: "a person's behavior is shaped by the rewards and the punishment he has received while not thinking about his own actions. few people habitually engage in the introspection necessary to break out of this "social programming" or decide to ignore the signals that other people send them, so this is a powerful mechanism for programming the unthinking masses. rewarding idiotic behavior and punishing smart behavior effectively bra
mircea_popescu: ing the programmer with a very strong sense of control and accomplishment that a perl programmer does _not_ try something else."
mircea_popescu: equiring more perl -- the perl programmer who veers off the road into the forest will get out of his car and cut down each and every tree that blocks his progress, then drive a few meters and repeat the whole process. whether he gets where he wanted to go or not is immaterial -- a perl programmer will happily keep moving forward and look busy. getting a perl programmer back on the road is a managerial responsibility, and it ☟︎
mircea_popescu: "most people, when faced with a problem, will not investigate the cause of the problem, but will instead want to solve it because the problem is actually in the way of something more important than figuring out why something suddenly got in their way out of nowhere. if you are a programmer, you may reach for perl at this point, and perl can remove your problem. happy, you go on, but find another problem blocking your way, r ☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 16:59 mircea_popescu: im sure eg spyked would love ot give it a gander -- maybe he thereby learns asm and becomes as smart as ave1 for one, and maybe it helps his adalisp for the other.
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892309 <-- funfact: /me reads plenty of asm on his saecular assignments, mostly to maintain & debug shit software stacks that crash in weird ways. haven't written any asm in a while tho, and dos asm especially has been a challenge last time I looked at it ☝︎
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892345 <-- neato! I'll give this a reread myself ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 16:49 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892247 << see how comms trip you up ? had you ~said~ this much i'd have said very different things, because i entirely don't see the problem with a cl blogotron.
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892289 <-- post updated with some more context re. lisp blogotron http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/082-tmsr-schedule-i.html#selection-177.0-179.1 the scope might still prolly not be 100% clear, it seems to require a separate post ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 16:48 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892244 << manual how ? i have a script somewhere doing it for trilema, want me to dig it out ?
asciilifeform: most of the a.org links lead to null
asciilifeform: i found a handful of random.
asciilifeform: it is, highly a++ recc'd to anybody who still finds himself tending heathens
mircea_popescu: must actually be a pretty grand experience.
asciilifeform: i managed to fit it into timeslot of a meat chore, ftr!111
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not noose, but i simply like the flavour. just read 'guide to psychopathic rape', for instance, a+++
a111: Logged on 2019-02-03 17:20 mircea_popescu: hanbot pick a laptop, bake the man's cuntoo. (principal issue, that gentoo->cuntoo "bridge", see if his sig matches).
a111: Logged on 2019-02-03 17:24 diana_coman: trinque, it's possibly best to run your latest script and then hand over everything you need, fresh and clear? not a big issue otherwise to rummage and pack that dir but I don't even recall if I did not touch it further after that point when I sent the genesis patch so I'd rather not introduce artefacts
asciilifeform: 'Implementing muLisp for the Intel 8086 was more challenging because the 1-megabyte address space was segmented into 64-kilobyte segments. The MS-DOS operating system reserved 360 kilobytes of that address space for its purposes, leaving 640 kilobytes for implementing and using muLisp. Awkward segmented architecture is becoming less common as memory costs decline. However, techniques for overcoming the limitations of short pointers a
asciilifeform: a in ~that~ way , heh
mircea_popescu: though perhaps there's a lead.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it grew to at some point include a forum also, and i put a buncha cr pics from first trip there, which was teh ~only reason i considered over the years digging up archives, but was too lazy.
hanbot: spyked: (snip) <-- for some reason, I took zenofeller to be a proto-trilema. I archived some of the posts, I think some of them can still be dug via archive.org << oh sweet, i'ma happily wade knee-deep in these again awhile.
asciilifeform: aa a.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 16:12 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892248 << 1st i hear of the name, seems to be at least coupla diff people. tho dug up a https://archive.is/WnZJY , which reads almost trilema-like...
a111: Logged on 2017-01-25 17:57 asciilifeform: unrelatedly, if phf or anybody else has a copy of mulisp-90, plz to post.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 12:56 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892217 <-- for some reason, I took zenofeller to be a proto-trilema. I archived some of the posts, I think some of them can still be dug via archive.org
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892248 << wtf is a walterschen.de ? ☝︎
mircea_popescu: "DERMATOL está programado en muLISP-90 Version 7.00 (03/06/91) para IBM . PC MS-DOS de Soft Warehouse, Inc. Las funciones están definidas en base a la estructura y algoritmo de la red neuronal ." << no, item evidently DID exist.
asciilifeform: i vaguely recall seeing one somewhere with a '-90', but possibly memory fails me or i dreamed it.
asciilifeform: i haven't yet encountered a version with 'derive' in the rom out of the box, but entirely possib that they sold one
mircea_popescu: and the derive people announced it has a lisp also.
asciilifeform: i dunno re palm, but there was (and remains sold!) a 68k thing that runs on the ti calculator
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: at least 4, there was a '-83' also
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sadly 'mu' aint all that helpful for writing a hand-carved lisp -- it's in 16bit asm and has the segmentation bullshit intimately baked into it
asciilifeform: http://loper-os.org/pub/mu/DERIVE.EXE , http://loper-os.org/pub/mu/mulisp.com << the latter is 'mulisp-87', there is also a '-90' that i was never able to track down.
mircea_popescu: im sure eg spyked would love ot give it a gander -- maybe he thereby learns asm and becomes as smart as ave1 for one, and maybe it helps his adalisp for the other. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: you know asciilifeform ... just cutting out the asm lisp compiler and putting it on loper may be a huge boon.
asciilifeform also has a ~decade-long on&off proj to reverse the thing properly. but not much movement on that front since tuning into tmsr.
mircea_popescu: i dunno what it was, but the only fucking time i threatened a wanna-be teacher with shooting in my life. dork was derealized enough to think i was kidding.
mircea_popescu: you will be nonplussed to hear that my only mental model for php is this "lisp" thing they had for "especially bright kids to learn how to computer" bla bla back when i was a teen.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 12:54 spyked: more generally: although I've been tempted to switch to mp-wp, I'm still hoping to grow the current thetarpit code base into a minimal cl-based mp-wp-like blogotron. I'ma also put a genesis on the todo list.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892247 << see how comms trip you up ? had you ~said~ this much i'd have said very different things, because i entirely don't see the problem with a cl blogotron. ☝︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 12:52 spyked: re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892216 , http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892221 : a) do you mean the alt "title=..." text? I'll add it to the list of things to look into; b) pingback delivery is for now a manual process. will also have to add automation to thetarpit feature list
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892244 << manual how ? i have a script somewhere doing it for trilema, want me to dig it out ? ☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: yarvin's original claim to fame (of a kind) was a short and abortive attempt at this, he dug up a buncha confederate/slavery/etc texts and mirrored/commented
mircea_popescu: there's ALWAYS a denied middle in everything pantsuit does. shakespeare, it perceives it has no choice but to talk about, because a) "too big to fail" and b) whatever, "we'll '''antibody it away anyway".
asciilifeform: http://flibusta.is is asciilifeform's routine 'gutenberg', been a while since i looked at the actual one ☟︎
mircea_popescu: should prolly also salvage http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/ but that's going to be more work than a straight download & strip headers job.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, either spyked or lobbes what do you need to make a complete gutenberg.org copy ? it IS going away, for one thing the initiator guy died and for the other thing, with their world-famous http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-15#1627828 there's no way they'll stay online all that long. ☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: 'To sane humans, such a character is bewildering, but let's not forget an important piece of the puzzle. Jim Blow isn't there for sane humans. He's there for a very specific category of defective human minds. They call themselves "hackers" or something like that, and the rest of the world calls them nerds. ' << a++ imho
a111: Logged on 2019-02-04 12:56 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892217 <-- for some reason, I took zenofeller to be a proto-trilema. I archived some of the posts, I think some of them can still be dug via archive.org
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-04#1892248 << 1st i hear of the name, seems to be at least coupla diff people. tho dug up a https://archive.is/WnZJY , which reads almost trilema-like... ☝︎☟︎
spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-03#1892217 <-- for some reason, I took zenofeller to be a proto-trilema. I archived some of the posts, I think some of them can still be dug via archive.org ☝︎☟︎☟︎
spyked: more generally: although I've been tempted to switch to mp-wp, I'm still hoping to grow the current thetarpit code base into a minimal cl-based mp-wp-like blogotron. I'ma also put a genesis on the todo list. ☟︎☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-03 21:04 mircea_popescu: but i must protest re your blogotron that a) whay do footnote anchors not load the footnote in a hoover overlay! and b) whay does it send no pingbacks ? (or does it, did trilema eat them ?)