ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu originally contested the difficulty of importing heavy things, saying it was a problem of the poorly networked
ben_vulpes: but now says he can't even get a pogo shipped in.
ben_vulpes: <adlai> [] this is actually why i suggested that for an mpif pc, it'd make the most sense to run the bot on s.mpoe itself << i admire the guys persistence
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93900 @ 0.00042309 = 39.7282 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 07-11-2014 01:18:27; mircea_popescu: there is exactly one avenue to do that : make it so good some actual trader starts using it, after which go work for him.
ben_vulpes: i'm just saying that i admire your persistence.
☟︎ jurov: yea, adlai keeps suggesting and saying "but it requires" ... perhaps one day someone'll make his code working and he'll be left with nice fuzzy feeling
adlai wonders whether that quite does him justice, but arguing on irc gives less of a fuzzy feeling than becoming that someone
jurov: you seem to avoid at any costs mentioning concrete terms to potential investors in this chan
adlai: i'm not set on a specific configuration for how such terms would look; i'm interested to see what works for them. mircea_popescu outlined the terms he offers people who manage profit centers, and it seems that he's not willing at this stage to risk an amount which is worth my time to manage, and this is understandable
adlai: so at this point i'm working further on my code, and waiting to see if anybody interested in using it has terms in mind already
adlai: i'm not going to declare in advance that i want X% of profits, or a Y% upfront fee, if that's what you're looking for
danielpbarron: dude, take the small amount and build some rep; what's with all the whining?
adlai is doing this, shuts up
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41050 @ 0.00042263 = 17.349 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform he could have been lord curzon II, or else he could have been the Russian Lafayette.
mircea_popescu: this "british socialist, tour of derpage in spain" thing is wormtalk.
mircea_popescu: "oh i hate shootin gelephants and the empire is too heavy ; oh how the latrines stink" is really not adequate for one over the age of about 15.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron: better than refreshing a faucet << pretty much teh point.
mircea_popescu: trinque: how many countries have to be fighting a war for the phrase "world war" to apply? <<< ww1 was instituted by gallup poll.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: 'we've never heard of you' <<< i'll insure against that one, for cheap.
trinque: mircea_popescu: maybe they'll crowdsource a sweet name for wwiii from reddit this time
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: there are all of these things that make sense in the context of it, but... <<< i come fresh from a three hour session of discussing eulora game model with c people.
mircea_popescu: i can sort-of read c++ and i comprehend computers, but jesus christ was it fighting against us.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes: my plaintive cries << it's not a bad plan i don't think.
ben_vulpes: cart before the horse until the db's replaced
mircea_popescu: the great debate of "with what" is eagerly awaited. im even working to import two (2) popcorns for the occasion.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: i distinctly recall that machine tools are uncommonly difficult to obtain in ar, for example << do i need to show you pictures of the casa del transformador again ?
mircea_popescu: or tell you about how on reports about "power outages" i had all sortos of arrangements in place, including the option to have a container generator installed (worth about 3mw)
mircea_popescu: that i never ended up using because... there hasn't yet been a power outage.
ben_vulpes: first gotta resolve the "embedded" vs "external" question
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: it most certainly cannot be true that he cannot get a pogo shipped in. but quite likely true that he cannot get a pogo shipped in for 18 usd per. <<< it doesn't even reach that. the value of ME running pogos is minimal. there are N+k**p things i can do to halp bitcoin.
mircea_popescu: there are, however, bunches (i'm told) of people who would like to do something, but for reasons of barrier of entry, can not.
mircea_popescu: it's pretty much the lowest "i did something positive for the world i live in" barrier they'll ever meet.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64842 @ 0.00042309 = 27.434 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 104753 @ 0.00042349 = 44.3618 BTC [+]
mircea_popescu: well i dunno what teh topic really was cause i'm not so sure i said what it seems to be the case i said or something
ben_vulpes: but you mention a 3mw gennie, so that's relevant
mircea_popescu: as you might imagine, it's more expensive to run than just use the grid.
mircea_popescu: however, the point is more along the lines of "solutions exist"
mircea_popescu: actually you can get it on lease, and on quite excellent terms. with any luck, BY DAY.
ben_vulpes: how does renting a backup generator by the day make sense?
ben_vulpes: once you need it so does the rest of town.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform: kakobrekla: and, as shown here, 'opaque' plastic - isn't necessarily ideally opaque << actually, only metals are opaque properly.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes perhaps you don't understand what "the town" means.
mircea_popescu: if the whole thing's out of power your problems are probably closer to finding enough ak47s rather than generators.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59700 @ 0.00042247 = 25.2215 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: because these logs were INSUFFICIENT i swear. i leave for a full few hours and what do i get ? NOTHING
mircea_popescu: " In 1936 it was clear to everyone that if Britain would only help the Spanish Government, even to the extent of a few million pounds' worth of arms, Franco would collapse and German strategy would be severely dislocated. By that time one did not need to be a clairvoyant to foresee that war between Britain and Germany was coming; one could even foretell within a year or two when it would come. Yet in the most mean, cow
mircea_popescu: ardly, hypocritical way the British ruling class did all they could to hand Spain over to Franco and the Nazis. Why? Because they were pro-Fascist, was the obvious answer."
mircea_popescu: this is actually a fair analysis, i suspect. cca 1936, stalin was pro hitler, lord halifax was, undeclaratively, but essentially, pro hitler. everyone was pro hitler.
mircea_popescu: to go from there to fuhrerbunker in less than a decade... you need a real idiot for such a thing.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87900 @ 0.00042125 = 37.0279 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: and to add to that, hearst & co were DEFINITELY pro hitler.
mircea_popescu: if tomorrow your street loses power, you can't simply ordered a truck without wheels dropped in front of your property. for various pseudolegal and regtulatory reasons that essentrialy reduce to
mircea_popescu: mebbe i am confused as to how things actually work thar.
benjamindees: yeah, you can find a large military surplus generator for cheap, but 3MW is pretty large
mircea_popescu: i mean order. not prepared. order. when you feel like.
mircea_popescu: this is the important part here. not that "in principle could be had"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the thing is, argentina-chinese trade relations are about as close as us-canada
mircea_popescu: in fact argentina is about as close you can get to china without having to fuck azn looking women.
mircea_popescu: obviously a scavenger civilisation will hafta be built on top of the previous cities.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: do you use radiant or forced air?
benjamindees: asciilifeform, my surplus junk lives outside /shrug
mircea_popescu: "Kipling is in the peculiar position of having been a byword for fifty years. During five literary generations every enlightened person has despised him, and at the end of that time nine-tenths of those enlightened persons are forgotten and Kipling is in some sense still there."
mircea_popescu: "It is no use pretending that Kipling's view of life, as a whole, can be accepted or even forgiven by any civilized person. It is no use claiming, for instance, that when Kipling describes a British soldier beating a 'nigger' with a cleaning rod in order to get money out of him, he is acting merely as a reporter and does not necessarily approve what he describes. There is not the slightest sign anywhere in Kipling's wo
mircea_popescu: rk that he disapproves of that kind of conduct–on the contrary, there is a definite strain of sadism in him, over and above the brutality which a writer of that type has to have. Kipling is a jingo imperialist, he is morally insensitive and aesthetically disgusting. It is better to start by admitting that, and then to try to find out why it is that he survives while the refined people who have sniggered at him seem t
mircea_popescu: there you go, asciilifeform, re the orwellworm thread. he perfectly well knows what the problem is.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 104041 @ 0.00041927 = 43.6213 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82000 @ 0.00041061 = 33.67 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 179200 @ 0.00040825 = 73.1584 BTC [-] {4}
gribble: Current Blocks: 342511 | Current Difficulty: 4.127287389469702E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 342719 | Next Difficulty In: 208 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 7 hours, and 22 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 44950465076.1 | Estimated Percent Change: 8.91043
assbot: benjamindees is not registered in WoT.
gribble: Time since last block: 12 minutes and 21 seconds
decimation: re: generators < the power is so unreliable in many areas on the east coast that many folks have a propane or natural gas powered generator permanently installed at their house
decimation: re: 3mw genset < yeah that's basically a diesel-electric locomotive
decimation: the military has generators in a 'standard container'
decimation: asciilifeform: I have a small 2 kw job that runs on propane, to run essentials 'just in case'
decimation: why propane? can be stored for a decade; doesn't leave nasty shit in the engine
decimation: at any rate, perfectly common industrial tool
cazalla: why the demand for s.qntr?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> those who don't, typically own a small (5-10kW) genset on wheels << i have no idea what this would do. suppose a 2kw air conditioner unit, or fridge, or even washing machine.
mircea_popescu: capacitive charge being what it is, the 2kw would serve for what exactly ?
decimation: mircea_popescu: yeah can't run a/c but you could run fridge
bitcoinquestinos: mircea_popescu: I know I'm asking what is the purpose of this IRC?
mircea_popescu: decimation depending on the fridge. i think they make gen friendlier models now.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform yeah, if it's all resistive charge it's useful.
decimation: yeah if you have a gas furnace, and you can run the blower, you can save your house water lines from freezing
decimation: because it could take days for the incompetents to fix the power lines in poor winter weather
mircea_popescu: otherwise i dunno what household can be run on 5kw (bottlenecked at 1.5ish)
mircea_popescu: decimation eu mostly heats on gas, these micro units that mostly don't need power. either because battery or ingenious.
bitcoinquestinos: mircea_popescu: What do you mean? Is this a place where people find the best way to spend their bitcoins so they can hold tighter?
mircea_popescu: bitcoinquestinos mno. i mean, when it's decided that mtgox dies, it;s decided here.
mircea_popescu: when it's decided gavin is of no further utility for bitcoin, it's decided here.
mircea_popescu: whenever something happens, or doesn't happen, it starts or doesn't start here.
mircea_popescu: decimation i have nfi what that is ? but no, either keep a pilot going, or w/e.
decimation: in the us gas heat is common, but typical large us house has a 'forced air' system that moves heated air around the house
decimation: yeah if all you need to do is heat boiler, then you don't need electricity
mircea_popescu: my house in timisoara, the heating system held about a ton of water in the pipes and radiative elements. took about an hour to cool a coupla degrees.
mircea_popescu: decimation you sort-of need it for the pump, but it's not so much.
decimation: this is very uncommon in the us, except for old homes
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and since it runs maybe five times a day for a quarter of an hour, battery's quite feasible.
decimation: yeah if i had to provide backup power for something like that, would use UPS
bitcoinquestinos: mircea_propescu: What makes you say when Mt gox dies it's decided here?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, but then again i never had a power outage. if they happened, ups would work fine.
mircea_popescu: bitcoinquestinos i could, but so far i'm not particulrly inclined. the logs are in the topic, peruse at your leisure.
decimation: part of the other reason 'forced air' heat is common in the us is because air conditioning is considered to be a requirement
mircea_popescu: six months or a year down the road, we can continue this conversation in a better position.
mircea_popescu: decimation i kinda wonder why water circulating systems aren't used for cooling much.
decimation: also considered purely in energy efficiency terms, a 'heat pump' is most efficient for heating, and can be 'run backwards' for cooling
decimation: the problem is that air source heat pumps can only heat down to a certain ambient temperature
decimation: I have a friend who swears by the new mitsubishi air source heat pumps
decimation: they claim to heat (without resistive elements) down to 5 F
decimation: asciilifeform: the heat pump was probably turning on bigass resistor for 'emergency heat'
decimation: the newer japanese units can achieve amazing coefficients of performance
decimation: typically the most efficient ones are 'mini-split' systems
decimation: which would be somewhat useless in a house already fitted with ducts, granted
decimation: hvac is a particular kind of chumpatron in the usa
decimation: only a few factories manufacturer the equipment, and they usually only sell to 'licensed installers'
kakobrekla: mitsubishi is the shit as far as these heatpumps go
decimation: kakobrekla: do you have a mini-split system?
mircea_popescu: decimation yeah heat pumps seem a lot better deal than any alternative, yet the least commonly used.
mircea_popescu: and in principle can heat/cool to any arbitrary temperature, as long as your compressor's up to it.
decimation: well, in the case of the us (as asciilifeform mentioned) natural gas is much cheaper to install and pretty cheap to run
gribble: Bitstamp | A market order to sell 666 bitcoins right now would net 148999.9978 USD and would take the last price down to 223.2300 USD, resulting in an average price of 223.7237 USD/BTC. | Data vintage: 0.0119 seconds
kakobrekla: decimation we have a heat pump for radiators and hot water for the house and for air i have a separate inverter unit with one external and two internal units.
decimation: kakobrekla: yeah I bet that's pretty cheap to run
mircea_popescu: decimation but if one's principal equity is the house, a la us, then it makes sense.
decimation: mircea_popescu: the irony is that for many us citizens, their house is their biggest 'savings account', yet very few consider any other option than what the builder 'decided'
mircea_popescu: leaving alone the weirdness of keeping most of your capital in a nonproductive asset (hey, that's made to be through purely government interventionist means), not even pretend like you're managing it ?
decimation: well, one of the reasons that things are this way is because the 'trades' have a pretty strong chokehold on what gets done
mircea_popescu: that's another thing. hire a plumber so he tells you what to do ?!
decimation: w.r.t. home builders, any home that's younger than 30-40 years has been built in a carefully-managed chumpatronic environment
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that should be some pretty cool steel, that happily takes 100 degree differentials over decades.
assbot: Logged on 08-02-2015 05:30:55; asciilifeform: and the junk is typically built to last about one decade.
decimation: mircea_popescu: it's considered normal for the entire system to break every year or two, typically requiring a specially licensed repairman to come out and replace the freon lines
mircea_popescu: decimation you know, i had an old zil fridge at some point in romania, and the thing had been running for ~25 years, and it never ever leaked.
decimation: mircea_popescu: in the us, I'm pretty sure that the manufacturers (who have an oligopoly) cheapen shit up so that it 'breaks' and requires replacement at a rate they select
decimation: similar refrigerators were made in the us, and were similarly reliable, made before the 60's
decimation: this is all a chumpatron on the 'let's break everyone's window so we can stimulate the window-repair economy' model
decimation: in the us, the chumpatron is often kick-started by a government regulation that is sold as 'efficient' or 'safe'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform funny enough, it was heard of in 80s romania. parents insistently warning kids not to do it!
mircea_popescu: perhaps because parents are so acutely aware of the type of divorcement between meaning and action that trips up children.
mircea_popescu: like, most of 'em. "are you sure you wish to forever lock yourself in ? well...that's what you're doing"
mircea_popescu: that's what it is. parents suspect children are about on the level of c programmers, and try to avoid any situations where reality emulates the c compiler.
decimation: asciilifeform: actually that's not a bad idea, it doesn't take much breeze to keep mosquitos away
mircea_popescu: only thing that ever scared me. but i'd quit the room in a hurry
mircea_popescu: and yes it had a half bowl top and a fat cylinder butt
decimation: yes this is common in 'fraternities' on us university campuses
decimation: me neither but it would be for folks in germany
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53600 @ 0.00041105 = 22.0323 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1941 @ 0.00087042 = 1.6895 BTC [-] {8}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1964 @ 0.0008671 = 1.703 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 262600 @ 0.00040591 = 106.592 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 5000 @ 0.00084738 = 4.2369 BTC [-] {16}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2010 @ 0.00083698 = 1.6823 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3500 @ 0.00083303 = 2.9156 BTC [-] {2}
cazalla: ah damn, they got their account back already lol
cazalla: that's quite quick considering it took @ElectrumWallet about a month to get that account back
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27100 @ 0.00039999 = 10.8397 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 210500 @ 0.00041106 = 86.5281 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2000 @ 0.0008001 = 1.6002 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 211 @ 0.00508131 = 1.0722 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3900 @ 0.00082994 = 3.2368 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1250 @ 0.00082999 = 1.0375 BTC [+] {2}
jurov: that generator discussion..incredible. like, imma here running a server off only a little ups with 99.9% uptime
jurov: when putin arrives everyone will be caught with pants down
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30988 @ 0.00041189 = 12.7636 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41450 @ 0.00041189 = 17.0728 BTC [+]
[]bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Gold to top $1500 before 16 May"
http://bitbet.us/bet/1106/ Odds: 18(Y):82(N) by coin, 20(Y):80(N) by weight. Total bet: 6.3 BTC. Current weight: 77,641.
[]bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $150 before March"
http://bitbet.us/bet/1107/ Odds: 13(Y):87(N) by coin, 18(Y):82(N) by weight. Total bet: 10.58179557 BTC. Current weight: 27,359.
[]bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $100 before April"
http://bitbet.us/bet/1108/ Odds: 15(Y):85(N) by coin, 17(Y):83(N) by weight. Total bet: 12.57696636 BTC. Current weight: 64,327.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63200 @ 0.00041189 = 26.0314 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49082 @ 0.00040969 = 20.1084 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32800 @ 0.00040969 = 13.4378 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: jurov: when putin arrives everyone will be caught with pants down << everyone still there, at any rate.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 12009 @ 0.00077888 = 9.3536 BTC [-] {30}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2968 @ 0.00040969 = 1.216 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1833 @ 0.00077 = 1.4114 BTC [-] {9}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 315 @ 0.00572587 = 1.8036 BTC [+] {20}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 111700 @ 0.0004017 = 44.8699 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: btw, anyone read "[Date: 1601.] Conversation, as it was by the Social Fireside, in the Time of the Tudors." ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8743 @ 0.00040734 = 3.5614 BTC [+]
[]bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin main net block size to increase in 2015"
http://bitbet.us/bet/1093/ Odds: 20(Y):80(N) by coin, 20(Y):80(N) by weight. Total bet: 2.601 BTC. Current weight: 88,488.
[]bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "BTC price to rise above 1oz of gold in 2015"
http://bitbet.us/bet/1092/ Odds: 38(Y):62(N) by coin, 39(Y):61(N) by weight. Total bet: 4.127 BTC. Current weight: 89,007.
[]bot: Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "BTC tops all time high before April Fool's"
http://bitbet.us/bet/1081/ Odds: 9(Y):91(N) by coin, 10(Y):90(N) by weight. Total bet: 6.0329 BTC. Current weight: 39,234.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2010 @ 0.00077012 = 1.5479 BTC [-] {8}
mircea_popescu: dude, that thing's lengthy, and not directly obvious why i'd care ?
mircea_popescu: "the human's inability to fully comprehend the parsing and syntactical schemes they're able to create" << this is actually a generally valid point, and about half of all problems of humanity come from this impedance mismatch.
mircea_popescu: it's also necessarily going to remain there, and for great benefit.
gabriel_laddel: The last message from me in that thread contains a brief discussion of the "why" of lisp, that is, what separates it from being 'just another language'. Figured I'd post it in here because your previous trilema post discussing reverse polish notation and Erik Naggum + many #b-a messages didn't communicate to me that lisp has 'clicked' yet for many people.
mircea_popescu: well yes, fortunately i've cut to it by now. but listen, you gotta be much better at packaging stuff.
mircea_popescu: the best chemistry lab, were it to be maintained as a collection of bottles going "stuff" "Good stuff!" "REagenT" etc
mircea_popescu: and since this is here, allow me to rant, not in your direction particularly but in general,
mircea_popescu: that the idiocy of puritanism imposing "modesty" upon the coder (on top of chastity - which by the way, there's nothing great about not "raping" women, being a nice guy, great sense of humor etc. that's a drone.) limit people's ability to do crucial things for their success and the world's hygiene.
mircea_popescu: there's nothing wrong with saying "i am great", in principle. competent people do not in the slightest mind the nude affirmation of your naked competency. the error on the topic is amusing, but not the end of the world
mircea_popescu: (much like people falling imagine everyone's looking when in fact nobod ycares, so the guy caught overstating his competency imagines the world ended when really - people just had a laugh).
fluffypony: I feel like replying to that thread with "Yakshemash! Lisp best prostitute in all of Github. You like?"
mircea_popescu: it is i suspect off this festered, metastasized modesty that people can't make good summaries, introduce anything properly or generally package well
mircea_popescu: fuck (not heck. fuck!) it's probably even why people don't enjoy writing comments and specs. because they require "this is great" and "im so fucking proud of this" ands "i bet you wouldn't have come up with this in five lifetimes" to be either worth reading or worth writing
mircea_popescu: and somehow these natural and necessary modes of speech are "forbidden". /rant.
fluffypony: mircea_popescu: they're part of the "pat-on-the-back" crowd that constantly need to be told what a good job they're doing else their paltry raison d'être will crumble
mircea_popescu: i imagine you know, if you can't say it for yourself, you're stuck trying to find people to support you
gabriel_laddel: using shell scripts and regexes, because types and haskell
gabriel_laddel: yeah. also, they don't document anything, or so much as tell you that they're going to move the whole C toolchain.
mircea_popescu: the problem starts in 5th grade. there should be a class called Abstraction.
mircea_popescu: kids are expecting to do it and do it well but it's never taught. it's not like expecting virgins to fuck like pros on their first date. it's more like expecting tramps to ballet. spontaneously.
gribble: Current Blocks: 342583 | Current Difficulty: 4.127287389469702E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 342719 | Next Difficulty In: 136 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 1 hour, 30 minutes, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 44457253638.5 | Estimated Percent Change: 7.71543
gabriel_laddel: ^ Correct. I ended up using it because I needed to quickly build a linux distro and someone told me it could do some things it couldn't really do.
gabriel_laddel: mistakenly posted that issue, not fully grokking how bad of an idea it was
mircea_popescu: "Examples: at what point is appropriate to leave package management up to a language's ecosystem? Is there ever a reason to? " << one hell of a problem.
gabriel_laddel: Politics is harder than writing code. Who would have thought.
mircea_popescu: in MPWorld this is implemented as a sort of api, and languages either talk to it or are stuck doing 100% of the work themselves.
mircea_popescu: only correct solution to political problems, b-a ness.
chetty: it's more like expecting tramps to ballet. spontaneously.//you mean they don't? I see in the movies all the time
mircea_popescu: "For instance, for ELF executables, we set the RPATH in the executable such that it will find a statically determined set of library dependencies at runtime, rather than using a dynamic mechanism such as the LD_LIBRARY_PATH environment variable to look up libraries" holy shit.
mircea_popescu: no but this is out and out "everythingwillbefineism" imported back into the software stack.
mircea_popescu: like you know, plaintext emails and unauthed telnet. because "who would ever hijack an account!"
mircea_popescu: let's just assume that it's ok to override the user imperatives. because.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i didn;'t mean you, i'm stikk in shock over the quote above
mod6: no need to worry about r00tkit, r00tkit pre-installed!
mircea_popescu: "There are very few classics in the field of computing. We are at the very beginning of this journey and it hasn't even begun to get interesting yet. IMHO, the Cathedral vs. Bazaar isn't in anyway a dilemma or a classic. Linux was a failure 20 years ago, it is a failure today and any posturing otherwise is just that. "
mircea_popescu: the sad reality is that the earlier "linux is a failure but doesn't have to stay that way" is slowly coming to the sobering reality that "it is a failure and systemfuck it."
gabriel_laddel: Seriously. Where is the tree of all hardware as nodes with drivers as sub nodes? Oh, it doesn't exist? right.
mircea_popescu: it doesn't exist 30 years later, which 30 years have been spent doing what exactly ?
gabriel_laddel: as for the fight in our realm, I'd like to buy 10ks of AMD opterons K8 chips and reverse engineer them. Give designs to China.
mircea_popescu still vividly remembers this event when he was maybe 13 or so. this kid "got really psised off" and was going to hit me. every time he launched his fist, he also closed his eyes. every time i'd dodge and he'd mash his fist into the nearby wall. his hits got softer an softer, but he never figured out why exactly he's not making contact.
mircea_popescu: "Suppose you're trying to find the best way to structure your description of something. (Examples: choosing the structure for a computer program to perform some task; or choosing the structure for a theory of physics.)
mircea_popescu: What you hope to find is the natural structure of what you're describing — a structure that affords a really beautiful, simple description. When you strike the natural structure, a sort of resonance occurs, in which various subsidiary problems you may have had with your description just melt away, and the description practically writes itself."
mircea_popescu: these kids are so fucking stupid i can't believe i've just read "when you meet the right someone it'll feel special" in code-words.
mircea_popescu: what the fuck already, if the planet crossed through a bogon ray one evening in 1988 and made everyone's brain essentially batrachian in nature i could never know.
gabriel_laddel: well, when someone is tweaking the design of something and it produces extremely complex and counter-intuitive behavior I point them to that quote.
gabriel_laddel: the /feeling/ didn't do anything. It is merely a signal.
mircea_popescu: listen here : the fact that it feels right is no indication of it being the best way.
mircea_popescu: the fact of it being a pile a kludge is an excellent indication of it not being the best way, but rather heuristic in nature.
gabriel_laddel: feelings, and trial and error were not involved at all?
mircea_popescu: the entire basis for that quote is the reverbalisation of the concept that "when true love comes around you'll know". empirically, most people do not.
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel i actually was kinda disinterested in fucking as a young adolescent, was taught by older girls.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: yes. you've written about the game of 'balance' wrt fucking. when playing this game you /know/ somehow that you're doing it correctly, via various signals.
mircea_popescu: but in any case : what do you figure is the difference bewteen "When you strike the natural structure, a sort of resonance occurs" and "perl is a fine way to do nixos" ?
mircea_popescu: after all... when you hit the language with regexp just right you know.
mircea_popescu: just you know, pattern match and all will be well (when it's truely well)
gabriel_laddel: using regexes for that is something like... trying to impregnate a woman through her arse.
gabriel_laddel: at some point you've just got to try something different.
mircea_popescu: but you, in your own description (well, in their description which you seem to underscore) of "how to meta-structure" in fact revert to what is the equivalent of pattern matching.
gabriel_laddel: as for my id, I'm currently fixing <irritant to livelihood>. First chance I get I'm sitting down and sorting out the whole GPG thing. As it stands I was not particularly happy with the documentation it supplied and wasn't sure which parts I'd have to rewrite. My previous key got destroyed in a failed backup becuase I didn't spend enough time on it the first time around. Also, I don't think gossipd is happening via w
gabriel_laddel: hoever it was, and I'm fairly sure I grok ASCII's plan and will be handling some intro documentation for it + figuring out how the PGP code needs to interface with it exactly.
mircea_popescu: re game of balance : fucking is an extremely poor metaphora for what we're doing here, because computers are actually turing machines, whereas cunts are not.
mircea_popescu: so yes, you can do just fine as a human interacting with humans on broken structure. just as long as it's broken in tolerable places.
mircea_popescu: dna is exactly this : worst code ever, wouldn't even parse, let alone compile.
mircea_popescu: which is why a flimsy repackaging of "popular advice" that doesn't even work on the fucking plane is horribru. not only it doesn't work in practice, but the mind that tends to make such confusions is probably in a very poor state to think about anything.
mircea_popescu: (ps. the lisp notation of basic arithmetic would win "least likely to succeed" "ass-ugliest award" from a vast majority of all the people who understand basic arithmetic. it "doesn't feel right" for almost anyone. 3+4 does.
gabriel_laddel: becuase of the "various subsidiary problems that fall away"
mircea_popescu: mebbe i should dig that article where i murder some guy over leaving out the outside paran or something.
gabriel_laddel: the only reasonable basis for discussing such things is how much power they afford you
mircea_popescu: the right structure is that structure which expresses the sum total of all the concepts in can express in the smallest total count of expression units. note that both fields being infinite, this is a difficult comparison to evaluate.
mircea_popescu: it's even difficult to establish what kids of infinite are involved.
mircea_popescu: aye, i suspect notation and structure are actually closer married than we generally realise.
gabriel_laddel: That said, I've had the experience several times of reading trilema or the logs, not immediately grokking it, returning a day later to have it all 'click'. I'm thinking that might happen here.
mircea_popescu: you know it's not your trial for being a badman, this.
mircea_popescu: all the various foregoing rants are not directed at you personally as if you were somehow in ther wrong on some score.
gabriel_laddel: wtf is this, we're discussing a footnote in something I posted.
mircea_popescu: anyway : the quote you took carries a certain meaning in its original context (physics - esp "natural" is a term of art in physics) and is an entirely different thing in the new context (coding). i fully agree with the quote as it is on the source blog
mircea_popescu: when put together with the nix discussion on github it gives me spots on the spline.
thestringpuller: mircea_popescu: random: but I recall you said you don't like driving so you don't. You're driven. Do you ever "want" to drive in some ideal scenario? A racetrack or something?
thestringpuller: guess it's an american phenomenon. I find I hate driving in traffic. But lemme open up a sports car at 120-130 MPH somewhere "Top Gear" style and I have a blast.
gabriel_laddel: " As far as I can tell, were one to extrapolate from the given information to a set of concrete requirements we see that NixOS plans to rewrite the build scripts for every version of every project on unix. Again, this is insane. The correct thing to do in this situation is to realize the utter impossibility of the task that has been set forth and re-evaluate one's approach.[1]" << [1] links to the quote previously d
mircea_popescu: in any case : the space of things physics has to represent is in point of fact narrower than the space of things computer programs have to represent.
mircea_popescu: we know this to be true, because you can have mmorpgs.
mircea_popescu: i think we're in the mental institution. they're outside. cheaper this way, more of them.
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel you seriously thinking of implementing a sane pgp ?
☟︎ gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: as for now, I just want to have a clear idea of what the interface is, what the problems are etc.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I'v M-x rembered (or something) the previous thread on the matter for when I return to it.
cazalla: ;;later tell bingoboingo hey, remember that fish i told you about? hooked and landed it after a few days :)
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: you had a alternate name for gossipd based on russian theater that had some relation to the nazis. I couldn't find the wiki article again, care to point me to it?
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel i take this is going to be lisp, as in not scheme, not clojure, cl ?
mircea_popescu: so total noob here, but. the way cffi works is you compile your c stuff as dynamic objects and then put the headers in your lisp program ? or what ?
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: gossipd requires C. PGP, CL (at least, this is where I'd start).
gabriel_laddel: My current plan for dealing with these projects: The haskell package Language.C.AST parses C99 entirely, taking into account all GCC extensions. I'm going to pay someone to add a sexpr backend to it so I can work it into my CL toolchain.
gabriel_laddel: As for what language I'll be using on any given project, it will be determined entirely by what is correct for the project. If I hack something out in CL, but switch it over to C, I'll do that. If it makes sense to release a protopye that is hacked together C+CL+CFFI I'll do that. In any case, both of these come after getting the #b-a distro finished.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: Sorry, I was being less than clear - this is only for development.
mircea_popescu: sometimes i fantasize about buying an old english castle, turning it into a computing school for nude 18 to 22 yo ladies, and putting alf in charge of it, with a flexible bamboo cane.
mircea_popescu: then after a decade i come by and go... "why did she write this!"
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: You've never desired to query over a bunch of gnarly C code?
mircea_popescu: gabriel_laddel his idea being i suspect that c code you wish to query over should just be quarried over yonder hill
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: Yes. Show me all structures that look like this. Pattern match against structures, rewrite them as so.
gabriel_laddel: asciilifeform: I'm assuming, at least for now, that I'm going to have to /look/ at the current PGP sources (thus the C sexprast ). This has no bearing on what will be released other than - I will do what makes sense given the situation.
gabriel_laddel: mircea_popescu: I have some code now that converts javascript to parenscript
gabriel_laddel: it, and nothing else will ever be a substitute for thought.
gabriel_laddel: "As for what language I'll be using on any given project, it will be determined entirely by what is correct for the project."
trinque: gabriel_laddel: how do you find using parenscript?
trinque: I've tried the clojure/clojurescript combo and was thrilled to be using the same language on both ends
trinque: gabriel_laddel: the outputted JS is more comprehensible?
gabriel_laddel: trinque: in any case, I hate everything about the browser.
mircea_popescu: the browser is not unlikely what'd have happened if the beduins had discovered dna alteration and there was no interstellar void.
mircea_popescu: camels floating in space on half butterfly/half bat wings
gabriel_laddel: As for PGP, I'm assuming that I'm going to have to spend a decent amount of time with the codebase and reading the spec. Perhaps not.
gabriel_laddel: Why might one want to see the C ast? Let's say that we've got a codebase like the linux kernel, or opengl drivers. You know that somewhere you've got some stuff that talks to the hardware, but grep returns false positives. You instead pull the ast into memory, query across it for the bits your looking for. False positives now indicate something about the language (i.e., that I don't understand it as well as I though
gabriel_laddel: t) rather than just a false positive. Again, I've never written C, and perhaps the ast is so complicated that it's actually impossible to get any useful information out of it, but my current experience suggests that having this ability is a good idea. Building something like `slime-who-calls' suddenly becomes simple.
gabriel_laddel: kk. I should be discussing this in design documents anyways.
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> so take up bobsleigh. better for your health. << or bicycles, more actual physical connection of your meat with the dynamic systems in question. airplanes and helicopters worth looking into as well
ben_vulpes: i like things without much by way of engine.
ben_vulpes: hang glider stability dynamics are interesting, but kinda neutered.
ben_vulpes: sorta like the "chair with prop hanging from parasail" design.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81500 @ 0.00040982 = 33.4003 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: don't get me wrong, they're fly as hell.
ben_vulpes: just...limited subset of the control space.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46105 @ 0.00040611 = 18.7237 BTC [-] {2}
decimation: re: parasail < I've heard of incidents where pilots of parasails fly too close to moving trains. They get caught in the vortex and then crash
decimation: I mean paraglider, not parasail I guess
bitcoinquestions: If I generate a key on a MAC OS that I use for other purposes is it at all secure? Or should I not even bother generating keys if I'm not on a linux distro?
ben_vulpes: decimation: aeronautics is full of exciting! new! innovative! ways to die.
ben_vulpes: i saw a gents quadrotor get sucked into its own downdraft near a wall one time, and slam itself repeatedly into said wall while its pilot tried to rescue it
decimation: bitcoinquestions: it is my understanding that macOs uses freebsd's rng (Yarrow), but you are implictly trusting apple...
decimation: ben_vulpes: yeah we ground-bound folk don't appreciate the air movements around objects
decimation: in particular with paragliding, I think that it attracts a certain set of folk who might not consider safety as a top priority
ben_vulpes: there's also the squirrelsuit insanity
decimation: folks who volunteer to jump out of a perfectly good aircraft?
BingoBoingo: ben_vulpes: fwiw there aren't many orcs in the rural bits of ussa, and one can shoot trespassers on sign in those provinces too << Different kind, even tolkien had different kinds of orcs
decimation: it's an interesting use of ground effect though
ben_vulpes: that's not ground effect if i understand the mechanism in question correctly.
ben_vulpes: GE entails actually riding on a compressed cushion between the foil and the ground, not the lift off the foil alone.
ben_vulpes: (again, i am not an expert in this area)
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform not so foolish as to think about 'homogeneous enforcement environments', knows that there are, e.g., vast deserts in usa where folks set off trucks full of dynamite for amusement, etc. << Sometimes law enforcement attention comes to these folks too.
decimation: ben_vulpes: yeah I guess that's what I thought was happening when he gets close to the ground, but there's probably not enough of a 'cushion' to do the turns they are doing
decimation: it strikes me that if the wind suddenly shifts they could easily bash their heads into a rock
ben_vulpes: it's not really clear to me how close they actually are to terra.
ben_vulpes: in some places, very close. those places also look very steep.
ben_vulpes: sink rate being a thing; angle of attack being a thing...
BingoBoingo: decimation: in the us gas heat is common, but typical large us house has a 'forced air' system that moves heated air around the house << Natural gas backup generators for homes are not unheard of here, occasionally going up to home's normal electricity consumption.
decimation: BingoBoingo: yeah for whatever reason natural gas distribution seems much more reliable than electric distribution
mircea_popescu: bitcoinquestions in general a machine is secure if its secure. linux is not a magic pill. as danielpbarron suggests, not connecting it to the internet helps a lot, but also makes it more difficult.
BingoBoingo: decimation: Well failures of the natural gas system tend to be more... catastrophic... I remember as a child the day half of my hometown was evacuated because ditch diggers broke an incoming pipe at the edge of town.
decimation: BingoBoingo: yeah that's true. occasionally a house explodes too
mircea_popescu: a total of nine exploded in a decade in timisoara (tiny town, 300k)
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: the best chemistry lab, were it to be maintained as a collection of bottles going "stuff" "Good stuff!" "REagenT" etc 18:23:12 mircea_popescu: would not really work. << This is why other big cause of home explosion is meth "labs"
mircea_popescu: decimation> in particular with paragliding, I think that it attracts a certain set of folk who might not consider safety as a top priority << i think paragliding is much like hunting, a sport intended for empty land.
mircea_popescu: you wouldn't go blasting quailshot all over the mall either, would you.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo yup. people trusting shit to memory that are also actively attackin it chemically.
BingoBoingo: thestringpuller: Illustrates an important difference. "Anyone can do" and "Few can do well"
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu still vividly remembers this event when he was maybe 13 or so. this kid "got really psised off" and was going to hit me. every time he launched his fist, he also closed his eyes. every time i'd dodge and he'd mash his fist into the nearby wall. his hits got softer an softer, but he never figured out why exactly he's not making contact. << Silimar event in middle school. Bigger kid pesters me for days about how he's
BingoBoingo: going to fight me. When he finally starts throwing punches can't keep his eyes open long enough to hit anything or avoid going to the ground and getting stomped
mircea_popescu: i didn't beat him up, it was kinda incongruous. he had no real quarrel, posed no real threat and besides, as far as teh adults were concerned i was a silver spoony gentleman.
BingoBoingo: Well, I'd been annoyed by his build up to this event for a few day, twas enough of a greivance.
BingoBoingo: School administrator was puzzled by the combatants being "A" students without long disciplinary records didn't see fit to issue discipline to either party as the aggressor learned he wasn't fit to aggress.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu still vividly remembers this event when he was maybe 13 or so. this kid "got really psised off" and was going to hit me. every time he launched his fist, he also closed his eyes. every time i'd dodge and he'd mash his fist into the nearby wall. his hits got softer an softer, but he never figured out why exactly he's not making contact. << Airstrip One must first be cast into the ocean
BingoBoingo: ^mircea_popescu: sometimes i fantasize about buying an old english castle, turning it into a computing school for nude 18 to 22 yo ladies, and putting alf in charge of it, with a flexible bamboo cane. << wrong pasta buffer
decimation: "The ritual traces its origins to professor H. E. T. Haultain of the University of Toronto, who believed and persuaded other members of the Engineering Institute of Canada that there needed to be a ceremony and standard of ethics developed for graduating engineers. The need was patently obvious in the light of the Quebec Bridge disasters."
decimation:
http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1299 < "One clever soul suggested applying this doctrine to yet a fourth profession, creating a kind of “programmer priest.” Perhaps one day there will indeed be someone you can trust to pronounce – truthfully and competently – that a crypto-system is strong, that a protocol has not been diddled, that your computer serves only a single master."
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "In the United States polite letters was a cult of the Brahmins of Boston, with William Dean Howells at the helm of the Atlantic." << Release Date: August 20, 2006 [EBook #3190]
mircea_popescu: apparently "brahmin" has a lengthy usage to describe the cult of the dead cow of massachussetts ?
decimation: moldbug repurposed (re-re-repurposed?) the word "brahmin" to mean something like 'modern liberal elite'
decimation: but before that it was used to describe Massachusetts men who spoke with a particular accent and had a particular affinity with the anglo colonizers
mircea_popescu: The term was coined by the physician and writer Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr., in an 1860 article in the Atlantic Monthly.
decimation: I guess that's what you get from fifth-generation englishmen removed from england
mircea_popescu: dickens vs austen ? "o look, my toy car is faster than your toy car!"
decimation: yeah the conversation topic is quite inane.
thestringpuller: I say that to cops a lot when they pull me over for being black
thestringpuller: "You're broke nigga, you gonna really persecute the nigga payin your salary"
mircea_popescu: yeah, that's a true old courthouse favourite, "i pay your salary"
thestringpuller: Usually cop is like "You got anything valuable in the vehicle?"
decimation: thestringpuller: they are fishing for some property to indict. maybe the local cops want to have some new toys
bitcoinquestions: yo i dug through your posts on trilema about how you think Gavin is sabotaging bitcoin or whatever for wanting to increase the block size. Are you afraid of DDOS attacks because there are not enough full nodes?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52062 @ 0.00039986 = 20.8175 BTC [-] {3}
decimation: in 1790 mr. ddos would have been on one of the sans-culotte's murder gangs
decimation: well, there's a certain lefty predilection toward paranoia/violence that seems stable over the centuries
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48450 @ 0.00039723 = 19.2458 BTC [-]
bitcoinquestions: mircea_popescu: ? I need to know whether or not to call the cable company :D
mircea_popescu: there's, intermittently, some unidentified derp that floods noobs