log☇︎
90400+ entries in 0.062s
asciilifeform: Mocky: the design of v is to give thoughtful, careful, honest folx , a sword with which to cut the sloppy, careless, and mendacious.
asciilifeform: Mocky: v rejects the traditional concept of 'merge'. therefore in order for a patch to continue through time, it must be not only correct, and simple not only to understand but to manually reintegrate ( see l0gz re 'regrind' ) .
asciilifeform: Mocky: to function as a troo vtronicist, gotta grasp the concept, described by e.g. dijkstra, that a line of code you have written is not an asset, but an expense. (specifically, an expense against the time budget of other thinking people, who must read and grasp what you have written. ) ☟︎☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: not errybody makes it to the other end .
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu , in one of his essays, described how gurlz from nato reich who enlist in his harem sometimes suffer from the effects of fat-soluble poisons, which accumulated in their meat, as the fat burns up in exercise. there is a similar malady suffered by escapees from 'open sores' world on those occasions when they show up here. the toxins gotta work their way out.
asciilifeform: fella had enthusiasm, even some talent, but could not grasp the essential idea that a patch gotta be compact and touch a strict and justifiable minimum count of moving parts
asciilifeform: Mocky: the illustrative log hook is the story of polarbeard
asciilifeform: Mocky: not merely this. there is also a set of human-enforced conventions re: 'fits-in-head' of any proposed change.
Mocky: asciilifeform, yes. I'm still wrapping my head around v. My understanding is attaching name and trust to every patch with an explicit dependence tree and build order. But I've not grasped the details yet, or used except to build trb, or understood the src
a111: Logged on 2014-11-15 00:28 asciilifeform: one would read instructions. another, turn a wrench, whatever. third would check that 2 corresponds to 1. then, all three sign under that step in recipe.
asciilifeform: Mocky: as you are prolly already beginning to understand from the l0gz, vtronics grew from trb work, which demanded 'measure not 7, but 7777 times, before cutting once', in the style of http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-15#922644 ☝︎
asciilifeform: Mocky: even quite small changes to trb, typically get months ( sometimes yrs.. ) of discussion, testing.
asciilifeform: Mocky: trb , roughly speaking , is a legacy item, in the same way as the icbm targeting comp and similar. i.e. a museum piece that gotta be kept in working order, rather than 'sexy, new' thing bubbling with development
Mocky: asciilifeform, thanks
asciilifeform: Fearful: who goes there ?
asciilifeform: Mocky: the definitive doc, unfortunately, is still the src .
trinque: that process will amount to setting an environment variable to direct emerge to use the /cuntoo/portage tree (and to designate /usr/portage as an overlay, if you'll be porting ebuilds from classical gentoo into cuntoo)
trinque: if you choose to use the build without the vtronic portage, it will be feasible to transition the system once that is born.
trinque: to particular hardware architectures, particular justwantedto variations like use of systemd or nsa.selinux, so on. the profile dir is about 20mb, so serious yak shaving needs to occur there. it's a task I've already done elsewhere (produced a minimal profile for an embedded system for printers recently), just needs to be done here.
trinque: let me know if you're interested in the script, and I'll be happy to upload. otherwise I'll hold off until done with the genesis.vpatch. what remains there is trimming the fat. the pile of ebuilds necessary to build a minimal userland is approx 4mb, though I can probably shave several mb of alternate versions of same ebuilds. then there's the profile directory, which contains environment settings pertinent
trinque: so if I were to upload the current version of the script for you, it would produce a system which is classical gentoo, my recipe, plus the musl and libressl overlays. this'd be what you'd get if you were hand-spinning own musl/libressl system.
trinque: diana_coman: I have updated the script you last tried, such that it again works. What I have not completed is the v-tree which is to replace imperial portage. ☟︎☟︎☟︎
Mocky: ok, so looking for documentation on how to use: it still works like this: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/API_reference_(JSON-RPC)
asciilifeform: Mocky: on the list of serious problems in trbworld, it ranked somewhere near bottom.
asciilifeform: Mocky: the rpc thing is ugly and there were experiments re replacing it ( e.g. 'shiva', scheme interpreter bolted on to trb ) but this took a back seat to moar pressing matters ( control of memory footprint ; sane sync behaviour; coupla other items ) and to this day rpc is still there.
a111: Logged on 2016-02-28 05:45 asciilifeform: it is to be amputated ~whole~. no motherfucking stumps.
Mocky: I'm confused about trb rpc. Log search suggests for the first year+ of bitcoin foundation rpc was marked for death: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-02-28#1417175 but then there's dump / eat block based on rpc? Is this a new version of rpc, I don't see a new version announced on the mailing list. Can someone sum this up for me, I'm having trouble following the history. ☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: generally speaking unless one or moar of your deps is weird in the 'emacs' way (i.e. does something obscene with glibc-specific pheatures) it's a straight mechanical job, like rotor.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu had asked asciilifeform not to meddle in euolorological matters, so i'ma stop here, unless all of you somehow get stuck and he asks for specific puzzler to be sent to my operating table.
asciilifeform: it is my understanding that trinque has a quite complete list of what worx and what -- not; ping him when he wakes.
asciilifeform: of the mentioned libs, zlib is known to me to work under musltronic build; libmysqlclient i had not occasion to test ☟︎
diana_coman: well, either there is cuntoo and then can try with it or there isn't, in which no choice apparently other than rotor buildroot style
asciilifeform: mod6 is the one who 100% automated asciilifeform's rotor builder; you may want to use his model, ~iff~ waiting for cuntoo is not permissible
asciilifeform: diana_coman: depending on how far cuntoo is from flight-readiness ( trinque , any idea ? ) this may be worth doing in your case
asciilifeform: i solved this same problem for trb -- i.e. building 100% musltronic proggy with '9000' deps , on a conventional box ☟︎
diana_coman: asciilifeform, it's unclear that a musltronic version of euloratron is in way easier to achieve atm because of dependencies
asciilifeform: the go-to man is then trinque .
diana_coman: I see; in that case it would seem cuntoo is needed then indeed
a111: Logged on 2018-06-21 08:34 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-20#1827895 <- my (possibly naive) idea was to try first on conventional gentoo by recompiling with musltronic gcc what I need; asciilifeform perhaps knows upfront: would it work to (re-)emerge libs such as zlib and libmysqlclient using the musltronic-gcc?
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-21#1827977 << 're-emerge' seems to imply systemwide ? you're more or less guaranteed a borked box, muslism has to be done either rotor-style (i.e. 100% user-local build of 1 proggy at a time) or systemwide ( trinque's cuntoo ), on account of the impossibility of cleanly linking glibc libs to musl proggy or vice versa ☝︎☟︎
diana_coman: I should add in case it's not clear that part of the reason for trying to do it starting from a conventional gentoo is that it gives a recipe to apply afterwards (if it works, obv) to current server too
a111: Logged on 2018-06-20 20:37 mircea_popescu: and so it is here : if gets away without cuntoo, will try, if not, with.
diana_coman: obviously, failing this first approach, next would be to get cuntoo on it and try it directly there; as per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-20#1827894 ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-06-20 20:33 ben_vulpes: diana_coman: why does it need to be wholly separate machine? i think something might have flown over my head
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-20#1827889 <- in short because existing machine is production environment, there are limits to doing experiments on it ☝︎
diana_coman: esp libmysqlclient is potentially iffy because it has dependencies that go deeper but atm I don't know until I try it; unless someone else tried similar /knows better?
diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-20#1827895 <- my (possibly naive) idea was to try first on conventional gentoo by recompiling with musltronic gcc what I need; asciilifeform perhaps knows upfront: would it work to (re-)emerge libs such as zlib and libmysqlclient using the musltronic-gcc? ☝︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: oh nm he says that literally the next line. sucks to be me!
a111: Logged on 2018-06-21 01:22 phf: typically hashtables stay stable over invocations of same code, i wonder where randomness is even coming from
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-21#1827945 << "memory optimization" for one thing. ☝︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-21#1827930 << by now they're so fucking disgusting any form of conversation besides beating them black and blue and urinating on the remains is squarely outta da question. ☝︎
asciilifeform: ( fwiw i have copy of the films , from decade+ ago , on cd )
asciilifeform: esthlos: i had nfi these were ever hosted on lolcattube to begin with
phf: asciilifeform: yeah, but of some significant vintage, i think it's either 21 or 22. i doubt 26 works, and i feel like i've seen "msdos no longer supported" changelog entries
asciilifeform: phf: i thought you had a working dos emacs..?
phf: emacs still has msdos folder in tree, all the way to 26. i wonder if that still compiles, or the folder is a lie
asciilifeform: gnat also ( tho i confess, never tried )
asciilifeform wonders what it'd take to put sbcl on dos.
asciilifeform: a complete dos toolchain would rock unspeakably.
asciilifeform: ( dun have to run ~on~ msdos, tho that would be pure gold; but at least crosscompile to it )
asciilifeform: btw phf i nominate you as the hero who will produce msdos gnat.
phf: in that case though any build process that relies on hashtables will fail
asciilifeform: machines, time, phase of the moon, alignment of planets, sunspots
asciilifeform: phf: prolly from os/bitness/etc-dependent crapolade in tree rebalancer etc
asciilifeform: pretty sure that gprbuild does not suffer from said idiocy, but this will have to be tested.
asciilifeform: 'build that iterates over the keys of a Perl hash will have problems, since these elements are also returned in a variable order' << perlism has gotta go.
asciilifeform: 'Unix doesn't specify an order in which readdir() and listdir() should return the contents of a directory, so components can get built in an unpredictable order' << this is gonna need a cure.
asciilifeform: 'Lamb referred to a build that had been made non-reproducible by a 15-digit random number that was generated during each build and baked into the resulting binary. It turned out that it was used as an OpenID secret, which meant that everyone running a given build of the software was using the same secret key.' << genius...
phf: oh yeah that piece is full of gems like that
asciilifeform: also didjaknow! , 'Building everything from sources that one has hand-inspected is a solution to this, but it doesn't scale. Many of us aren't qualified to spot security weaknesses...' etc
asciilifeform: whatever of these survives elf stripping, at the very least.
asciilifeform: btw as soon as ave1 fully pins down his gnat, 1st order of biznis is the burning out with hot irons of all timestampism and misc crapola emitted into binaries
phf: how does that go, the hole through which the night comes
asciilifeform: 'In the tricky middle ground of 95-96%, his position would depend on why builds were non-reproducible, as there are a few valid reasons for this to happen. In response to another question, he said that two good reasons for a non-reproducible build were packages that build inside their own virtual machine, such as Emacs, and security packages with signing keys such as secure boot. ' << lolwaaat
mod6: new borsec is here! all six bottles intact this time.
ben_vulpes: i'll need until late-july to kit out the bays
a111: Logged on 2018-06-20 16:46 mircea_popescu: which brings us to : ben_vulpes would pizarro be amenable to bring up the spare sometime so she makes it a full gnat musl thing, test whether we can move everything there, and either move it (so basically, moving servers) or else backing down (so basically i guess either renting both for a while or powerting back down the spare) ?
ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-20#1827727 << can bring up spare chassis with hot-spare for raid array on very short notice, but if you would like to cut over to this machine from your existing one o' ☝︎
deedbot: ben_vulpes paid trinque invoice 9
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/06/clinton-through-obama-era-family-separation-policy-ended-by-trump-executive-order/ << Qntra - Clinton Through Obama Era 'Family Separation' Policy Ended By Trump Executive Order
mircea_popescu: anyone recall them starburst candies ?
mircea_popescu: and in other "ddr trainset" memorabilia, went by wurstspezialitäten tienda, got gal a packet of maoam
a111: Logged on 2015-10-03 19:56 mircea_popescu: ascii_field as the verse goes, "comunismu-ntii te-ajuta, tac tac tac, si apoi te executa, pac pac pac."
mircea_popescu: if he gets thrown in jail by the exact fucktards he lied and stole for, i might even go visit, to point and laugh.
mircea_popescu: aaand in other lulz, it was my very good pleasure to see that shithead morgan freeman besieged by the idiocy come to roost that he dedicated so much of his life to helping spawn.
asciilifeform: in principle they'll execute anywhere with 2.6+ kernel abi.
mircea_popescu: i'm guessing this continues once she wakes.
mircea_popescu: and so it is here : if gets away without cuntoo, will try, if not, with. ☟︎
asciilifeform: right, ave1 produced a working self-builder gnat. nobody's bolted it into a gentoo in such a way that ~everything~ gets built with it, of yet. ( this as i understand is in the cuntoo conveyor )
mircea_popescu: wasn't the idea that we build it with itself and so on ?
ben_vulpes: diana_coman: why does it need to be wholly separate machine? i think something might have flown over my head ☟︎☟︎
mod6: Ok thanks for the time-frame there.
mircea_popescu: lol this created some excitement.
mod6: diana_coman: If not ASAP, that helps, any available guidence on your time horizon for this to be racked & working is helpful.
mod6: Again, less complete emergency. Let's see if we can source whatever parts are needed at 'ye ole iron shop', or other method, before I think about dropping everything.
mod6: <+diana_coman> asciilifeform, BingoBoingo it is NOT asap, no; take your time, no hurry << barring a straight out emergency, I can't get away at the moment. About a month ago, I was trying to plan a trip around end of July; but now, that's locked out.
mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: ^ plox to confirm << >> <+asciilifeform> there is a 860 in bilge, marked 'tbf' << sounds like TBF has a spare 860 then. makes sense.
a111: Logged on 2018-06-20 17:59 asciilifeform: i'ma ask that anyffing sent to asciilifeform for transport, be either marked (if sent from human hands) or serial # gpggrammed to asciilifeform , so he can mark it.
lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-20#1827839 << roger that. ☝︎
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> ben_vulpes: plox to gpggram to BingoBoingo , tracking # etc, when it has sailed << Between these and the disks... mod6 interested in a trip?