log☇︎
6300+ entries in 0.174s
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it isn't entirely same problem
mircea_popescu: other than this, the "we don't want to fuck our brains with $bad-arch" is a dead end -- you will, whether to write gcc for it or to write bios for it.
mircea_popescu: the obvious counter there will be "but not cheaper than baking ONE sane gcc". which is true, but nevertheless not as useful -- sometimes having an interface, even if "spurious" is better than not having it, which is why parents don't customarily discuss family finances with their 12yos.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: wouldn't this require a thiel to show up to bankroll $kid's suit ?
BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> it is interestingly imho reminiscent of plant toxin , d00d couldn't think of anyffin but 'let's make it poison' in re defense << Datura
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898157 << i dun even disagree that nuffin's worth doing if you don't kill the locusts first. but also imho gotta other things , the result of 'pesticide uber alles' agriculture is monsantostan. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 16:08 asciilifeform: various folx attempted something roughly like this, but succumbed to own idiocy -- e.g. the java people, who 1) wrapped their 'vm' around the nonsensical shape of their tardlang 2) stopped short of 'and no this doesn't run on your tard os, is IS the os, fuckyou' ;
mircea_popescu: it shouldn't be difficult to notice that the "gcc plugging wrong end of funnel" is not simple coincidence, but the necessary result of the feelings and optionalities these idiots perceive themselves to be having without actually having them.
asciilifeform: various folx attempted something roughly like this, but succumbed to own idiocy -- e.g. the java people, who 1) wrapped their 'vm' around the nonsensical shape of their tardlang 2) stopped short of 'and no this doesn't run on your tard os, is IS the os, fuckyou' ; ☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: i don't give a shit some insane nonsense "feels like" it's doing "a lot of work". the work done is measured at the useful end.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i very much don't expect you want the prb 12 that is emacs. rewrite yes ? :D
mircea_popescu: certainly it will have to come before any kind of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897705 job, because very strictly speaking you can't write a working user enviroment on top of extant gcc. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:49 mircea_popescu: see, engineers are worse than whores. a whore might pretend like she's not working, but an engineer does inept shit like "/* This should optimize out, but it is wise to make sure this assumption is correct. Should these have different sizes, we cannot cast between them and the overlaying onto ERRATIC will not work. */" so as to ~pretend~ like he doesn't see WHY exactly he wants to take that code out. seriously, ooga-booga-bu
mircea_popescu: now we're left with all those bleaters with livers, that are also spurious. "but mp, why won't you go into the liver ?" "wut ?"
asciilifeform: it is interestingly imho reminiscent of plant toxin , d00d couldn't think of anyffin but 'let's make it poison' in re defense
mircea_popescu: in utter fucking lulz : https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22To+help+you+detect+if+your+log+format+is+good%2C+Awstats%22&t=ffsb&ia=web ; meanwhile in the actual config files, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/rXwyg/?raw=true
asciilifeform: ^ for bonus lulz, it wasn't the 'iso std d&d fireball' but the http://trilema.com/2014/the-all-american-asshole-in-his-own-words-with-my-own-notes/#selection-1021.79-1025.1 thing, from what i gather was a 'mortal combat' clone of some type
BingoBoingo: Well, it isn't unthinkable that 70 kg of deathray ends up being a fairly common castle ammenity
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897638 << glibc has been banned from my own machines for some time. haven't missed it on desktop workstation, server, embedded. ☝︎
asciilifeform: afaik they haven't changed the chipset.
BingoBoingo: Ain't nobody doing blobless for "Jaguar"
asciilifeform: we won't be using apu2 at piz
asciilifeform: i.e. i won't be holding up the expedition for its fix.
mircea_popescu: doesn't seem like the end of the world to "can't thread properly" on a 4 core box.
mircea_popescu: well, doesn't seem like the end of the world, then, to say "this is the rk, has so and so list of advantages as before discussed (truly independend box, etc) and the one drawback meanwhile discovered that you can't really do tmsr-like threading in ada on it, which may be fixed later"
asciilifeform: what we have this wk, is a 'sjlj-gnat dun go on arm64'. i dun expect this is a permanent disease, but i do expect it'll take time to fix, esp. if asciilifeform has to do with own 2hands. until then, rk cluster is stuck with the obsolete compiler ( which runs e.g. 'lamp stack' and even zcx-gnat , but obv. won't run the emerging standard sjljistic one until fix. )
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform your problem's open tho, what the heck are you gonna do, put up more arms we can't compile for ? put up something else ?
mircea_popescu: and i somehow still don't see the only item of any import in there, which kinda makes the whole list derisory.
mircea_popescu: incidentally re http://pizarroisp.net/2019/02/17/pizarro-isp-february-17th-update/#selection-45.0-45.26 -- you can't practically wait with this whole thing until either aarm64 is fixed or the aliens invade. what are you gonna do for capacity ?
asciilifeform: fwiw mine also worked ( i.e. didn't bomb in bvt't test ) on zcx. but not tried sjlj yet.
mircea_popescu: so why doesn't it ?
BingoBoingo: http://trilema.com/2019/get-lost-dumbo/#selection-1953.0-1961.24 << His baby wouldn't happen to be left handed would he?
asciilifeform: ( this is where i point out, that the fabled 'sane iron' isn't simply a purely aesthetic win to ticke asciilifeform's aestheticles, but in fact substantially cuts down on the complexity of ~all other sane items~ that are to stand on top of it )
asciilifeform: but presently we haven't such.
mircea_popescu: problem with all this is -- the option's always between trust and knowledge. since we've discovered we can't trust gcc, it follows not only that we now have to write our own ; but that we must maintain the people who know how to write one.
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I'm "knocking" on a few doors. The "polite way" hasn't been very productive, so the rapeful way is appearing very necessary. Haven't hear anything from the "Proud Boys", excess of ego appears to be a defect of the dwindling population of forum operators.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: thinking about it, kernel is really the starting point for 'get c the hell off the box' -- the e.g. 20% of gnat's standard lib that's in c, is in c strictly cuz of reason illustrate in http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=udp , i.e. that kernel api doesn't eat sane (e.g. bounded array) parameters, demands liquishit c-istic buffers
mircea_popescu hasn't even the faintest who dood even was
diana_coman: I guess the main thing against it would be that part where can't kill
diana_coman: I don't know about option c i.e. whether there is something lost by going with it
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i very much don't expect you want the prb 12 that is emacs. rewrite yes ? :D ☟︎
asciilifeform: re 'e', i can't picture what'd move anyone with two neurons to rub together to maintain a glibc, that'd be rather like starting a trb from prb 12 (or what is current one)
mircea_popescu: d. ada-zcx-musl-static is the standard for non-threaded programs, we don't standardize threading.
mircea_popescu: c. ada-?-musl-static is the standard, either zcx or sjlj is acceptable (mostly based on what threading philosophy one embraces), with an obvious preference for zcx if one doesn't thread. ☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: b. ada-sjlj-musl-static is the standard, and we simply don't sign or use anything that doesn't live up to this.
asciilifeform: they didn't include a word x word mul that gives you both halves. why not ? 'oh not all irons have a mul instr.'
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:14 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform one of the larger, more impressive books in my parents' library was "welt der kunst". i couldn't read german, but mom explained it's "the world of art" so it populated my childish immagination for a full decade, until old enough to read it. by that time it disappointed -- not that anything could have lived to heights a kid might build in mind over years.
a111: Logged on 2015-04-29 16:41 mircea_popescu: you can't go "oh i don't use libnss anyway". you probably are.
asciilifeform: to revisit orig upstack thrd : pc dun offer iron locks. so threading relies on software locks, that 'work' in the sense where gcc is relied on to shit'em out correctly. what bvt appears to have found , is that (under particular inputs) it doesn't.
mircea_popescu: the principle ain't changing to fit the world.
mircea_popescu: zcx doesn't work, sjlj is broken and glibc is beyond salvation.
mircea_popescu: i can't believe this works.
asciilifeform: cuz, see, he feels free to 'assume', because anyone who doesn't, who demands to ~know~ before shooting, will have dropped out of school when faced with unixtardation
mircea_popescu: you can't go around simply solving the most general case of everything. precisely because such a thing as closed system exists.
mircea_popescu: but i do know what's typical in at least some cases. which is why my kitchen doesn't have a fast food counter.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't fucking get it, just HOW FUCKING MANY symbols are they dealing with here ? by the sheer desperation screaming out of the code you'd think a compile produces at least 5 trillion of them.
mircea_popescu: the problem was : as per http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897450 seen in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897382 -- is there call or isn't there call for such elaborate nonsense. the answer to this problem lies in the size of the dataset, if truly huge then ~perhaps~, but if small certainly not. then we had a discussion to establish whether large or small, which died on the facts, but i resurrected on culprit confession : ☝︎☝︎
mircea_popescu: "/* The count field we have in the main struct object is somewhat limited, but should suffice for virtually all cases. If the counted value doesn't fit, re-write a zero. The worst that happens is that we re-count next time -- admittedly non-trivial in that this implies some 2M fdes, but at least we function. */" ☟︎
asciilifeform: i'm surprised answer wasn't '1'
mircea_popescu: see, engineers are worse than whores. a whore might pretend like she's not working, but an engineer does inept shit like "/* This should optimize out, but it is wise to make sure this assumption is correct. Should these have different sizes, we cannot cast between them and the overlaying onto ERRATIC will not work. */" so as to ~pretend~ like he doesn't see WHY exactly he wants to take that code out. seriously, ooga-booga-bu ☟︎
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't fucking get it, just HOW FUCKING MANY symbols are they dealing with here ? by the sheer desperation screaming out of the code you'd think a compile produces at least 5 trillion of them. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: you can not in fact define symbols after the fact (and i don't mean just the elf technical term -- all symbols). the only way to define a symbol is by its parents.
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> maybe just link it ; but even so i'm nopt sure what "uch offers and promises none of these cities would abide the tin woman passing his dick pic around to all her friends that aren't him" means. << ties into the second archive link where... gossip rags are trying to monetize his sexts
mircea_popescu: "socialism doesn't do things properly, it's against the religion. errything must be sorta-halvsies and then forgiven. "
mircea_popescu: because i can't shake this very strong http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1379603 flavour from "we don't know if this symbol is defined or not so we half-define it just in case" ☝︎
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform one of the larger, more impressive books in my parents' library was "welt der kunst". i couldn't read german, but mom explained it's "the world of art" so it populated my childish immagination for a full decade, until old enough to read it. by that time it disappointed -- not that anything could have lived to heights a kid might build in mind over years. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: which doesn't seem right to me, either, but it might be built by induction from actual datasets, nfi.
bvt: maybe there are two similar issues that are both 'cured' by switching to dynamic linking, but currently i don't think so. i'm using zcx runtime for these tests.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-16 00:32 mircea_popescu: "The issue is that the code generated for __builtin_longjmp reads a value for x29 (the frame pointer) from the jmp_buf, but the code generated for __builtin_setjmp doesn't actually write x29 to the jmp_buf, leading to corruption of x29 when a longjmp occurs.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-16#1897098 seems an exact from-field description of the higher level http://bvt-trace.net/2019/02/gnat-zero-cost-exceptions-and-asynchronous-task-aborting-part-2/#selection-139.335-139.443 problem, doesn't it. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: there are in fact two different issues there, aren't there.
bvt: i don't think it gcc5-specific, the patch against this problem that i've seen was written for gcc 4.8
mircea_popescu: maybe just link it ; but even so i'm nopt sure what "uch offers and promises none of these cities would abide the tin woman passing his dick pic around to all her friends that aren't him" means.
BingoBoingo: I'll keep the tin women hasn't been meme'd hard enough in mind in the future
bvt: however i don't understand if this is possible only to achieve only for gnat components, and when i do it globally, i get 'undefined symbol' when linking with libgcc
mircea_popescu: they lie. part and parcel of http://trilema.com/2017/the-boundless-burden/ is that she ain't ever gonna be as engaged as you think she is, nor as on fetlife as you think she is, nor etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform shouldn't eggog, should redirect you to explainy.
mircea_popescu: as per the "this is the shop where we don't have talapia. the shop where they don't have salmon is down the street"
mircea_popescu: the "textbooks" this generation of mostly female, mostly useless college kids don't read are very fucking different from the textbooks we didn't read twenty years ago.
diana_coman: asciilifeform, they abort; we are sawing them open because I don't trust it anymore re "what does it actually do exactly"
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo do you by any chance recall the princeton "trained psychologist" on okcupid who couldn't spell but was nevertheless doing diagnosing over the phone ?
a111: Logged on 2019-02-16 10:07 bvt: hello. ave1: doesn't makefile.in in gcc-interface tweak it with sed to the necessary value?
bvt: hello. ave1: doesn't makefile.in in gcc-interface tweak it with sed to the necessary value? ☟︎
diana_coman: update re builds: it built fine with --enable-sjlj-exceptions in place, checked it in the log and yes, it's set; but the result still seems to be build ada code with zcx in fact (i.e. my test code with tasks is STILL hung waiting for them to abort) and if I specify --rts=sjlj to gprbuild it complains that there is no native compiler for ada and so can't do anything; ftr I compared the dirs of my adacore install and it has this specific dir
mircea_popescu: well, if you don't have experience with it or anything, it's not urgent -- can continue with cuntoo, can switch to this, either way.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile -- no they don't have any tech, much like the zimbuzz dun have music.
a111: Logged on 2018-03-21 16:44 mircea_popescu: "Like a bad ass she is, she proved to be wise beyond her years by standing head and shoulders (Or is it ass-tall) with the boys." doesn't even INTEND irony, you realise.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform see, the cardboard "entrepreneurs" don't exist in the us like in the orcistans, as named individuals. they're named... legal persons.
mircea_popescu: because FUCKING OBVIOUSLY it dun work worth a shit nor does it do anything, practically speaking. and if it doesn't here, it doesn't re "education" or "politics" or "civil society" or what have you.
mircea_popescu: cursory familiarity with the state of the computing stack (and, implicitly, the utter ridiculousness of any wasp-remnant notions of "the public oppionion" and "wouldn't permit" etc) would have saved that white haired tard a lot of unplesantness down in ecuador embassy.
asciilifeform wonders why arm64 even exists, not to mention displaced arm7, cuz afaik you can't actually ~buy~ an arm8 box with >4G of ram in it
asciilifeform: lotsa subtle breakage, cuz the orig wasn't built by thinkin' folx and hence not designed to be 'stretched'
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suspect this is my problem. i don't mentally distinguish aarch64 from arm correctly.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-15 19:15 asciilifeform: 'Jonathan Wakely 2014-12-12 15:35:00 UTC Just don't do silly things. Just because an option exists doesn't mean you need to use it.'
mircea_popescu: i can't imagine it was never written, this long jump thing was standardf for a while neh ?
mircea_popescu: "The issue is that the code generated for __builtin_longjmp reads a value for x29 (the frame pointer) from the jmp_buf, but the code generated for __builtin_setjmp doesn't actually write x29 to the jmp_buf, leading to corruption of x29 when a longjmp occurs. ☟︎
diana_coman: full you mean? I didn't time it, more usual left it and came back to it done, but from scratch ~1hour , possibly a bit more than that (less than 2 though)
diana_coman: but I suspect this is not the end of it because the bootstrap will want additional stuff that it probably doesn't yet have set to have etc
diana_coman: that's the switch I gave it; let me check in the log too to make sure I didn't dream I actually saw it in there (but for that matter if it didn't, it wouldn't have barfed)
asciilifeform: 'Jonathan Wakely 2014-12-12 15:35:00 UTC Just don't do silly things. Just because an option exists doesn't mean you need to use it.' ☟︎