log☇︎
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mircea_popescu: Mocky so if i declare a procedure which increments a global and a local counter, and then call it in a loop from multiple threads, at the end the globa lflag will contain the sum of the local flags ?
mircea_popescu: yeah, how about multithreaded i++ ?
Mocky: I mostly agree. They did manage a coherent threading model / memory model which turns out to be the thing I miss when I'm writing in something else
Mocky: i mean, entire jvm is c/c++ and filled with c/c++isms so not exactly in the direction of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898128 , more in the direction of 'just want to' cross platform ☝︎
Mocky: I was hopeful back in the day at java chip and java os, nothing worthwhile surfaced
Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898149 I know of a couple attempts at java os, one I installed on my Compaq iPaq in 2002. but they were shit ☝︎
mircea_popescu: esthlos had a pretty cool vtron if i recall.
asciilifeform: it's a shame, imho; i quite liked http://summaries.logs.esthlos.com
hanbot: right right, i mixed 'em up. and yeah, i'm planning on grabbing phf's keccak v.py in step 3, if only because i've seen diana_coman's pop up in cuntoo tests so i'd like to test the ver less traveled.
a111: 2018-10-23 <esthlos> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-19#1864316 << apologies alf, I'm running behind! trying to gather time to get caught up in the next week or two
asciilifeform: hanbot: v.py actually exists in modern ( keccakistic ) incarnation -- there's 2 variants, largely identical , diana_coman's (the 1 i use now) and phf's (he had some incompatibility in his python iirc which required own variant)
asciilifeform: i find it hard to picture how a sane cpu, where optimizing compiler is 10k loc and 'fits in head', could have no market. but then again the bolix people proved that it ~is~ possible to go broke with one.
asciilifeform: we dun lack the 'how' ; if mircea_popescu commissions an iron, i'ma draw up an iron. q is how to massage to pay itself.
asciilifeform: i.e. nobody http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-19#1377640 them. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: i suppose the pov where design is ~constrained~ activity, and the concept of "design competition" must strictly describe a situation where machine a with 64 registers of which one is mask and machine b with 64 registers + ONE separate mask register compete.
asciilifeform: currently i suspect that the corpse of tcc is 1 of the moar fuckable corpses in the unixtardation graveyard, tho.
asciilifeform: but i think i get mircea_popescu's pt
asciilifeform: i confess, did not follow the thing's trajectory into the ground, do not know which fashionable insanity in particular it followed as it died of immunocompromise
mircea_popescu: i was trying a tongue in cheek, "yes, now it has more code and less functionality, but it follows whatever trend of insanity".
asciilifeform: ( tho i last looked 5 or so yr ago. thing was self-building , and could build 2.x kernels in coupla sec )
mircea_popescu: i mean, "<asciilifeform> nao it resembles minix, 100x the mass of the original, and ~less~ function" <mircea_popescu> yeah, but it's in ruby, or w/e the fuck unity.
asciilifeform: bellard himself abandoned it, not the least reason , near as i could tell, was that he did not relish idea of maintaining 9000 backends
a111: Logged on 2019-01-16 02:24 mod6: This all started because we need a new door, it's old as shit, and all the weather stripping is bad, etc. So of course, this isn't std door size. So I paid some good money to have a custom one made to size. When the carp came out to install it, the first thing he did was pull off one piece of molding, and stuck his file down in the bottom area where that joist is located, and it pushed right through.
asciilifeform: aand , i suspect, by cutting coupla MB of entirely dead mass
asciilifeform: granted. sorta why i said 'it's a trb'
asciilifeform: ( btw if anyone else sees a dead link, plox to write in , i do fix )
mircea_popescu: and i'm saying that a) both approaches share a lot of overlap (you say no, but you agree next line that conceptually, field is broken -- that is overlap!!! you just agreed!)
mircea_popescu: but back to it, let's try and use different terms : i deem your "whole thing is an emu, in machine lang, bios boots into it" to be a "approach from machine end".
asciilifeform: so happens that i have a page re subj : http://www.loper-os.org/?p=256 .
mircea_popescu: anyway, i think i fully understand what you mean re "no compiler, no linker" : it is evidently a broken situation when you have TWO patsh from "what master said" to "what machine does".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i'm aware, evolved not designed. nevertheless, the fundamental breakage here is that glibc is proposed as a "library" rather than a "kernel mod". not that these terms make any fucking sense anyway, but what the fuck am i gonna do.
mircea_popescu: terminology fails, mostly because terminology was made by morons and we're trying to discuss analysis in roman numerals here, but consider "glibc" would be a... well i guess a kernel mod the program links against as a library ?
mircea_popescu: surely. i wasn't proposing adding layers.
asciilifeform: moar concretely, e.g. memory allocator -- attempts to put sane one on top of linux's, all caught fire in very similar way, i.e. impedance mismatch ( whether libc's or java's or commonlisp's )
asciilifeform: i'm not currently certain that there is any meaningful overlap.
asciilifeform: i suspect not only cheaper in manpower, but faster in wall clock. cuz can hand-massage emulator, whereas compiler barf , even with peepholing etc, is invariably bloated.
asciilifeform: i suspect cheaper than 1 sane gcc likewise.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 23:49 asciilifeform: re bolix back end, i suspect it aint very useful as starting point, because was far ~too easy~ item , in that the iron per se was sane (i.e. performed bounds and type checks, so much of what gcc is stuck doing in soft, was unnecessary )
asciilifeform: i suspect that it's a ~smaller~ problem than 'bake 17 sane gcc-like back-ends'
mircea_popescu: understand tho, it has a very visible facet of wishful thinking. i mean yes, obviously, way the fuck better to have all the needful stuff in one place than added to each binary. this much is certain. nevertheless, the notion that you can stuff a converter from insanity to sanity "in the bios" requires just as much a magical stone as any other "universal sanity-insanity bridge".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re bios emu -- i am certainly not against trying this. it's not possible to say much more than that as things stand now.
asciilifeform: i suppose if suit already brought, likely there's already a thiel.
asciilifeform: i suspect also that erry sargeant in erry unit on planet, also could summarize compactly.
asciilifeform: the benighted folx who 'wai is mircea_popescu so eager to hit us with spiked club', i can tell they never cell cultured.
asciilifeform: funnily enuff asciilifeform was just recently describing to pet , how mircea_popescu's pesticide worx, and finally clicked when i 'recall cell culture ? when yer growing eukaryotes, you add antibiotic, or guess what dish will be full of next day' ☟︎
mircea_popescu: i'm not proposing a reign of terror, merely intolerance.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898157 << i dun even disagree that nuffin's worth doing if you don't kill the locusts first. but also imho gotta other things , the result of 'pesticide uber alles' agriculture is monsantostan. ☝︎
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i also ignored. but imho it's an interesting entomological case.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 15:54 asciilifeform: i hold that the answr to the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898121 quandary depends on whether the right cut of that knot is made. and imho ^ is that cut.
asciilifeform: i strongly suspect that any other approach to the problem (i.e. 'we'll do exactly what the gnutards did, but they were mice and we are men' ) is certain to degenerate into ~same rubbish as what the gnutards ended up with.
mircea_popescu: i don't give a shit some insane nonsense "feels like" it's doing "a lot of work". the work done is measured at the useful end.
mircea_popescu: i can see it.
asciilifeform: i.e. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-29#1867124 . ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-20 15:43 mircea_popescu: whether that can be remedied in a group or not remains, i suppose, to be seen.
asciilifeform: i hold that the answr to the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898121 quandary depends on whether the right cut of that knot is made. and imho ^ is that cut. ☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: i also suspect that on modern irons, 'retargetable compiler' is plugging the wrong end of the funnel.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:10 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i very much don't expect you want the prb 12 that is emacs. rewrite yes ? :D
mircea_popescu: whether that can be remedied in a group or not remains, i suppose, to be seen. ☟︎
asciilifeform: i fully expect ^ adds up to ~100% of the c opensores mass, yes
a111: Logged on 2015-01-10 06:25 asciilifeform: mats: gcc... a) i dont get it... << what's the hard concept here? rms wishes to avoid gcc turning into a sweet and defenceless piece of candy for the 'embrace & extend/extinguish' folks.
asciilifeform: i.e. if digging up a vintage kernel, would also have to take up the gcc from the period, or backport the current one, as i understand
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-20#1898072 << i suspect he was barfing on the 'interfaces' thing. ☝︎
a111: 2018-12-10 <ben_vulpes> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-16#1835094 << i did not know that statically-compiled mysql was solved; is it?
shinohai: This trb addy I just generated for a payment: 1HANBox41dKXNhmdXsPgoYbbJgBqp86sCq "hanbox" lol
asciilifeform: ^ for bonus lulz, it wasn't the 'iso std d&d fireball' but the http://trilema.com/2014/the-all-american-asshole-in-his-own-words-with-my-own-notes/#selection-1021.79-1025.1 thing, from what i gather was a 'mortal combat' clone of some type
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 15:39 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i associate shitoverflow with articles like 'how do i cast 'fireball' in real life?' ( actual find )
feedbot: http://bingology.net/2019/02/19/mundane-shit-i-took-for-granted-that-is-new/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog -- Mundane Shit I Took For Granted That Is New
asciilifeform: that was btw a 35mm film. instrument can eat 35x35 ~cm~, for ~100x magnification.. ( i just dun have any on hand atm )
ave1: Btw asciilifeform, I had to switch my cheap NFS account to a more expensive one as php 5.6 is no longer supported in their new setup. I expect that sometime, at the end of this year, 5.6 will also disappear from "production" sites.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-18 08:56 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-18#1897858 -> ah, so broken links were only in the older versions? anyway: ave1 please do me a favour and point any fetch/download scripts to a mirror of the stuff on your own website, there is no way around this. For one thing I'd much rather download from a republican site and for the other as experience has already amply shown, any external site WILL move them, change them, drop them and it will at best br
ave1: diana_coman: re, http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-18#1897863, will do, It's about 100mb total I see. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-18 17:43 asciilifeform: ave1 are you gonna bake one ? someone's gotta, and i will with own hands if no one has it
trinque: asciilifeform: iirc last thing I built was in portage proper, built atop musl. this was probably a late and fungal version number
BingoBoingo: Also tonight I saw the good bum mentioned http://bingology.net/2018/12/24/preparations-for-the-second-navidad-in-uruguay/#footnote_1_2160 ☟︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 16:09 asciilifeform: for instance, emacs has yet to be cured, as i understand
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897703 << nope, emacs patches exist, I've run ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 15:50 mircea_popescu: some time to look at things and consider matters will be needed ; but i specifically want to hear something from asciilifeform ave1 bvt diana_coman phf spyked trinque
BingoBoingo: I did not join the group as it was composed of 4 dorks and 5 morbidly obese fem-presenting mayos.
BingoBoingo: In other news, taking my walk tonight I got the celebrity treatment for ~3 minutes. A group of local youth in the city for back to school asked me for directions and were thrilled to discover in Gringo in the wild who could indeed offer directions.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-14 07:45 mircea_popescu: trinque let me know how close i got.
trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-14#1896360 << far better than I could've said it, but yes. your "from cause" is foundational for sanity, let alone republic. I gather some have taken "sanity" as a term of art there, not the literal meaning. ☝︎
asciilifeform: trb-capable box, btw, i have one going .
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: apu1 will be exactly same as when i 1st laid hands on it in '14
BingoBoingo: Has only gotten faster since I first put it on the desk in 2010 or 2011
asciilifeform: ( i'd pay in gold for small box with ecc, dun exist afaik )
asciilifeform: i also have an old and well-oiled toolchain for it, where can e.g. throw customer payload directly into rom, if desired
asciilifeform: i.e. i won't be holding up the expedition for its fix.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd still like to see the arm64 wtf resolved
asciilifeform: what we have this wk, is a 'sjlj-gnat dun go on arm64'. i dun expect this is a permanent disease, but i do expect it'll take time to fix, esp. if asciilifeform has to do with own 2hands. until then, rk cluster is stuck with the obsolete compiler ( which runs e.g. 'lamp stack' and even zcx-gnat , but obv. won't run the emerging standard sjljistic one until fix. )
mircea_popescu: i was looking for that pic a whole ago, you know. "where's the one with the bunch of them huddled together like so manby peasantsa"
mircea_popescu: meanwhile in look what i found, http://trilema.com/2011/de-ce-se-duce-sua-de-ripa/
BingoBoingo: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Opg8n/?raw=true << asciilifeform Here's what I've sorted so far
asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: it is also my understanding that the new rk is presently idle. if this is still so, i'ma commandeer it for propaganda ops. lemme know.
asciilifeform: and on what existing userbase says ( asciilifeform still ! waiting ! for any passengers ! to stand up, re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-15#1887214 . if none by end of this wk, i will assume there are none ! ) ☝︎
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: I'll have a list of targets tonight
mircea_popescu: and i somehow still don't see the only item of any import in there, which kinda makes the whole list derisory.
asciilifeform: ( as i understand, battlefield proggies will use sjlj moar or less exclusively )
asciilifeform: fwiw mine also worked ( i.e. didn't bomb in bvt't test ) on zcx. but not tried sjlj yet.
bvt: hello. quick report: i bootstrapped avegnat using asciilifeform's tar (thanks!), had to change the the paths in linker scripts and la-files, will make a post on that.
asciilifeform: i can see that it might have to let go of any locks it holds, but what if holds none ? this is easily shown at compile time