tmsr - Log 2019-01-09

lobbes: !!v 0A8DFF73C1807887EABEF77020C257A596B3ECB7F244BB74215588B419EF9D29

deedbot: Invoiced BingoBoingo 0.14 << Auction# 1033: 500 wired filthy fiats for 140mn ecu

mircea_popescu: let's then put the more useful part in teh archive hopper : https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_burroughsBkComputerSystemOrganizationTheB5700B6700_10821314/Organick_Computer_System_Organization_The_B5700_B6700_Series_1973_djvu.txt

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: lol, ~whole thing is diagrams

asciilifeform: it aint edible this way.

mircea_popescu: ah

mircea_popescu: tsk.

asciilifeform: sorta why archaeology is hard

asciilifeform: shit aint searchable/txtable.

mircea_popescu: cuz erryone gotta be spashul, come up with diagrams. text not good anymore etc.

asciilifeform: eh it's a , what, 1960s manuscript.

mircea_popescu: i'm just bitter.

asciilifeform: next can complain that newton didn't put out 7bit ascii.

mircea_popescu: i can, and i do.

BingoBoingo: !!v 069163137FC5BE03C43D22E16938F9670CBCF86D92B8B580CF13C01C3365AA3E

deedbot: BingoBoingo paid lobbes invoice 2

asciilifeform: in other noose, constant-time stein-gcd aint so bad, 1msec (2048bit operands) , 6msec (4096bit) , 21msec (8192bit), 81msec (16384bit) ☟︎

asciilifeform: incidentally, whether it is possible to gcd arbitrary ints in non-quadratic time, is an open problem in numtheory

BingoBoingo: ty lobbes

asciilifeform: ( afaik nobody ever proved that you couldn't, and the nonconstanttime lehmer and variations run in ~O(n) for ~all inputs )

asciilifeform: the catch is that ~all != all.

asciilifeform: on a box with 1 FG, the wait for a random fillup of a e.g. 2048bit reg, i suspect dwarfs the runtime of stein (and possibly even of m-r, dunno yet)

asciilifeform: let's say yer baking one of the p, q of a 4096bit rsa mod. it needs 2048bit , i.e. 256byte of FG. a standard FG at room temp shits out 7kByte/s. therefore 256 / (7 x 1024) ~= 0.0357 sec., for a fillup of candidate register.

asciilifeform: if primality test ( which consists of GCD ~and~ m-r, in order to constant-time ) does not exceed 0.0356sec, then on machine with 1 FG it can be considered that the FG is the limiting reactant.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu diana_coman et al ^

asciilifeform: on a machine with multiple FG harnessed together, divide the figure by the # of FG in use.

asciilifeform: ( all of this assumes that nothing is parallelized. asciilifeform in particular does not like parallelized subcomponents in rsatron, if it can be avoided , tho there aint anyffin wrong with running ~multiple~ rsatrons , on diff inputs, in parallel , if iron is available )

asciilifeform: nao, philosophical q : does one actually want to gcd + m-r always ? or is it acceptable to reject input after failed gcd litmus, and only ~then~ m-r .

asciilifeform: cuz in the former case, there aint actually any point to gcd.

asciilifeform: ( afaik there are no integers that are divisible by small prime (such as will fit in the primorial) and fail ~any~ number of m-r shots.

asciilifeform: )

asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/TkmoM/?raw=true << sneak peek of constant-time stein. ( afaik there isn't one anywhere else on the net, funnily enuff. )

mircea_popescu: the whole idea of prior gcd was to save on rm time.

asciilifeform: right

mircea_popescu: if it doesn't save any time it's not worth having

asciilifeform: well at least not in the initial sieve ( one might still want it for e.g. pocklington's test )

mircea_popescu: something like that.

asciilifeform: i'd be satisfied with gcd as initial sieve (given that i have one that dun leak anyffin) ~followed~ by m-r.

mircea_popescu: i don't see the point.

asciilifeform: of what ? that's the obv. version ( get from rng, until gcd shows that no small factors, and then m-r )

asciilifeform: i.e. to save on r-m time.

asciilifeform: my observation was that on a box with 1 FG, the latter will almost certainly be the limiting reactant in prime-baking.

asciilifeform: ( and that on iron where m-r ends up taking substantially less time than FG takes to fill up candidate reg, there may not be a point to pre-sieving )

asciilifeform: i dun have the m-r yet, so cannot give the equation quite yet.

asciilifeform: the interesting thing about m-r however, is that it can make use of any available cpu given to it, to produce smaller probability of death

asciilifeform: so depending on how many m-r shots you want, it can make sense to pre-sieve, to give m-r moar shots.

asciilifeform: grr, moar complicated than i initially pictured, because m-r ~also~ demands rng

asciilifeform: i'ma come back to this binomial once i have the m-r.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform IF rm doesn't take much time, THEN i don't see the point of doing any gcd. because r-m is a complete test for what we need, and gcd is not.

asciilifeform: right

mircea_popescu: why overload the machinery with unreliable testing.

asciilifeform: how 'many r-m shots' is a free variable tho.

mircea_popescu: gcding small primes doesn't reduce the m-r constant.

asciilifeform: it potentially frees up cpu for moar shots of m-r, was the idea

mircea_popescu: what does ? not bothering to gcd ?

asciilifeform: no

asciilifeform: the opposite

asciilifeform: ~doing~ the gcd pre-sieve

mircea_popescu: ...

asciilifeform: then you only m-r on inputs that already passed gcd

mircea_popescu: the count of m-r shots is established on mathematical not circumstancial grounds.

mircea_popescu: dude...

asciilifeform: the ~minimal~ count

mircea_popescu: this discussion is broken.

asciilifeform: let's spell out the algo. 1. reg := read_from_fg(2048bits). 2. l = gcd(reg, primorial) 3. if l != 1, goto 1 4. mr = m-r(reg, shots) 5. if mr != true, goto 1. 6. reg is probabilistically-prime .

asciilifeform: this is the 'pre-sieve' variant contemplated.

asciilifeform: nao, on a machine with 1 FG, step 1 takes ~36msec. every time.

asciilifeform: step 2 takes ~1msec (on asciilifeform's aged box, and less elsewhere.)

asciilifeform: steps 3, 5, 6 take ~0. step 4 takes a certain yet-unknown time, which is a function of width(reg) and shots.

mircea_popescu: right, which is precisely what makes it a discussion about nothing.

mircea_popescu: IF 4 takes too little to bother, 2-3 aren't worth doing ; otherwise, otherwise.

asciilifeform: i dun have the necessary figure yet. hence 'i'ma come back'.

mircea_popescu: this is exactlyu how things stood 50 lines ~before~, also.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i not only gotta write proggy, but to make sure that it makes sense to people

mircea_popescu: in other news, reading old logs is something else, my the snr has changed. http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-18#565157 << back in 2014 dorky kids still thought "putin" is how you say "cool". in the intervening years -- they, changed not at all. everything around them... ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2014-03-18 09:39 LordPutin: what do you mean they haven't? Are they facing legalaction?

asciilifeform finds good % of the 2014-prior l0gz to be indigestible. (tho regularly goes to read'em anyway)

mod6: evenin'

mircea_popescu: yeah, something else.

asciilifeform: might be interesting ( phf? ) to have a filter toggle that only shows people who are still alive

mircea_popescu: nah.

asciilifeform: ( i find what e.g. mircea_popescu said in 2014 , interesting, but not xyzputin3333 )

mircea_popescu: it's still the context. 2014 mp actually talked to ~those~ dorks.

asciilifeform: tru

asciilifeform: tho not only ( also talked to ben_vulpes and other folx who tuned in prior to asciilifeform )

mircea_popescu: it'd be nice if this is how it worked, "lenin without the nieces". but historically...

asciilifeform: wb mod6

mod6: thx!

mod6 has been working on the big blog post that outlines my work to create the keccak regrind for trb.

asciilifeform: mod6: at the risk of sounding like mircea_popescu in earlier thread -- why is this a mega-project ? i reground ffa to keccak in about 10minute (after getting hold of a working keccak-vtron)

asciilifeform: trb has , what, 3x the # of patches, so it'll take you 30m at most.

asciilifeform: or do i misread, and mod6 already reground, and writing re how.

asciilifeform brb,meat

mod6: Yeah, have already reground, indeed. This is a write up of how I did this.

mircea_popescu: pretty cool

mod6: And I think that makes sense, this isn't my personal project. How this work was done for the foundation should be a public facing thing, and reviewed by people before vpatches published.

mircea_popescu: you always wrote quite excellent / delightfully complete such recipes.

mod6: Thanks mircea_popescu, I appreciate that.

asciilifeform: neato mod6 , i look fwd to reading

mod6: *nod* I appreciate that asciilifeform, your eyes on such things always are a Good Thing. Not long after I post it, I'll be looking for people to help test the updated HOWTO guide too if anyone feels so inclined. (Please reach out if interested.)

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-18#565557 << in lulzy 2014isms ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2014-03-18 16:00 benkay: gpg is not even necessary for wot participation, you should know.

BingoBoingo: Well, in 2014 the screws hadn't much been turned at all

BingoBoingo: gribble still "worked" for some definitions of work

mircea_popescu: aha.

lobbes: BingoBoingo: yw

lobbes: wb mod6. I also look forward to reading your keccak regrind post (hopefully I can sponge some useful info)

mod6: :] Thank you lobbes.

feedbot: http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2019/01/initial-cuntoo-testing/ << lobbesblog -- Initial Cuntoo Testing

trinque: lobbes: why didn't you read the script..

trinque: it didn't set a password on root. it asked you what user you wanted to create.

mircea_popescu: this is cute.

lobbes: trinque: fair enough, but then I should be able to login with that user right? Or at least chrooting in and setting the root password should've worked (I'd imagine)

lobbes goes to read scripts properly this time

trinque: I recommend you read it, understand what it's doing, and then talk about it from knowledge of substance rather than knowledge of surface.

trinque: it's not as if the script's setting anyone's password on anything; it's just calling the util that does.

trinque: also glad to see it getting used!

trinque: I'm still gunning after the nondeterminism in the genesis.

hanbot: billymg, phf: in billymg's latest mp-wp vpatch (http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-07#1885285), i see the old "\ No newline at end of file" spew on two of the touched files (was symptom of bug last yr: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-25#1786014). still indicative of proablem with presser/patch? ☝︎☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-07 04:31 billymg: hanbot: i put together a patch for the svg links mentioned earlier: http://billymg.com/2019/01/mp-wp-vpatch-update-internal-image-references-to-point-to-svg-extensions/

a111: Logged on 2018-02-25 19:25 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-25#1785986 << i thought that it was just a helpful warning, but upon reflection i realized that this is actually a bug. investigating it further i took a wrong direction on a diff's command line flag switch, and as it stands if you see this warning it

hanbot: billymg nice work btw, am ready to sign once above is cleared up

lobbes: trinque: I agree that I could use a more substantive grasp on the script as a whole (and will indeed study moar), however I want to say I'm at least understanding the bit in "create_user.sh" where it calls useradd and passwd, and then adds the $USER to etc/sudoers. I'm just missing -why- the user/password I set through useradd/passwd wasn't working when trying to login. Probably something elementary

lobbes: that's under my nose..

trinque: you could've like, mistyped it, maaan

lobbes: hahaha

lobbes: but both times? (plus all dozen of my passwd resets?). Anyways, more study for me. But for now bed

trinque: no idea, maybe passwd file manglement somehow. I'll look forward to what you find

lobbes: ty for helping me think this through trinque (and for the work on cuntoo in general. I'ma keep at this thing)

lobbes bbl

trinque: sure thing

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886041 << not a bug anymore (last year it was printed as a warning with no effects on the patch, effectively forcing newline always. i then adjusted vdiff to put correct "\ No newline.." directive, while vpatch knows to omit final newline when that directive is present) ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 04:53 hanbot: billymg, phf: in billymg's latest mp-wp vpatch (http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-07#1885285), i see the old "\ No newline at end of file" spew on two of the touched files (was symptom of bug last yr: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-25#1786014). still indicative of proablem with presser/patch?

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-08#1885856 << i was having some trackpad issues in india (macbook's trackpad would stop working after about an hour outside), which made me contemplate problems of mousing at sea, which made me think that it's likely that someone makes rugged trackballs for industrial application. imagine my surprised when i discovered that someone actually does. ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-08 16:48 asciilifeform: i dunno how phf ended up into it tho, iirc he dun cad

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-08#1885844 << you can also switch between three acceleration modes by, i believe, holding middle button and clicking right button (or similar, should be in the manual) ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-08 16:45 asciilifeform: in other esoterica, on gentoo 'xinput' dumps list of mice, and then 'xinput --set-prop yermousenumber 269 -1' switches off mouse-acceleration. ( possibly phf already knew this, but gives 9000x moar usable roller )

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-06#1885092 << i have a couple and the first one i bought i think had that issue, i didn't bother replacing it, and after first cleaning i believe it went away, or possibly i stopped noticing. the one at my office definitely has clean clicks on all they keys, so if it bothers you perhaps worth replacing ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-06 15:36 asciilifeform: hey phf, does the left switch on your cst billiard ball seem muffled vs the right ? i can't decide if mine's defective or not, just noticed last night..

mircea_popescu: imagine my surprise << i can imagine!

diana_coman: in other eulora-client headaches: to get the cpp client to use my ada lib (that I want to keep separate! away from cpp swamp!), it seems I need to make my lib "standalone encapsulated dynamic"

diana_coman: can't make it static because then it doesn't link in the adainit, adafinal ☟︎

diana_coman: (those are needed to do the elaboration in ada so can't do without them either) ☟︎

diana_coman: with the standalone encapsulated dynamic lib approach, I got it to work

mircea_popescu: da fuck is a "catamaran of butts in two boats" thingee.

diana_coman: basically the only way available to make a non-ada-main do the ada elaboration

diana_coman: the encapsulated part means it depends only on static libs at least (or so I read in the docs...)

mircea_popescu: entirely new category for me. is it different from dynamic ?

diana_coman: it has a donkey-horse as far as I can tell: a dynamic lib does not include all the code it requires so you'll need to further link /distribute stuff

diana_coman: onth a static lib does not have the elaboration...

mircea_popescu: why not ?

mircea_popescu: elaboration ~= cpp.init etc right ?

diana_coman: my trajectory in hitting walls on this was precisely that: make it static -> surprise, no adainit exported/included, checked the .a file and everything, went nuts; make it dynamic -> ugh, need -lgnat and whatnot; rtfm again and again, there is this calo-magar ☟︎

diana_coman: mircea_popescu, no, it's an ada thing, nothing to do with cpp precisely

mircea_popescu: are we thus the first to try and call an ada library from a c main ?

diana_coman: no; the "way" to do that is meant to be precisely this standalone thingie

diana_coman: i.e. if you want to call ada from something-else main then you don't really have any choice that works other than this

diana_coman: or at least none that I'm aware of

mircea_popescu: so basically "the way to call ada from non-ada context is called 'standalone encapsulated dynamic' in ada" is the idea here ?

diana_coman: exactly

mircea_popescu: til.

mircea_popescu: !#s standalone encapsulated dynamic

a111: 3 results for "standalone encapsulated dynamic", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=standalone%20encapsulated%20dynamic

diana_coman: the log is our days' own encyclopedia really

diana_coman: re ada elaboration since apparently it's not summarised in the logs as such: it's basically the code that runs *before* the main program starts and what it does is broadly initializing variables that the main program may expect to be able to access (e.g. "global" or in libs that are used) and running the "main" code (aka between begin and end of a package as opposed to that in procedures/functions) from units that are used

diana_coman: a sort of "getting everything ready" for the program to run

mircea_popescu: right.

diana_coman: as it is specific to ada, a non-ada main has no idea (nor does it care) about it and therefore won't do it automatically; the only way to have it done is to call explicitly the "init" procedure for the Ada unit that is to be used; and the only way to *have* such an init procedure seems to be the standalone lib thing

diana_coman: i.e. have it as a procedure, exposed and accessible from cpp

mircea_popescu: aha

feedbot: http://trilema.com/2019/i-think-it-might-be-the-case-im-becoming-pretentious/ << Trilema -- I think it might be the case I'm becoming pretentious.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886060 << ah ty phf , precisely what i wanted to learn ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 11:14 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-06#1885092 << i have a couple and the first one i bought i think had that issue, i didn't bother replacing it, and after first cleaning i believe it went away, or possibly i stopped noticing. the one at my office definitely has clean clicks on all they keys, so if it bothers you perhaps worth replacing

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886058 << i set mine to max when i uncrated it, but noticed that 'overshoots'. turned out, they aint acceleration modes, but pulses-per-radian, and http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-08#1885844 actually made it feel proper (i.e. can turn the roller 2pi, and then -2pi, and come to same pixel ) ☝︎☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 11:09 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-08#1885844 << you can also switch between three acceleration modes by, i believe, holding middle button and clicking right button (or similar, should be in the manual)

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886065 << hmm diana_coman , what piece in your proggy actually uses elaboration ? ( is it the tasking ? ) ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 14:08 diana_coman: (those are needed to do the elaboration in ada so can't do without them either)

asciilifeform: ( mine has no elaboration . but i escaped using all sortsa things )

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886056 << i tried and failed to find & buy whatever it is they make for the sea ( why settle for konsoomer plastic ) but no dice, it aint gettable anywhere ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 11:07 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-08#1885856 << i was having some trackpad issues in india (macbook's trackpad would stop working after about an hour outside), which made me contemplate problems of mousing at sea, which made me think that it's likely that someone makes rugged trackballs for industrial application. imagine my surprised when i discovered that someone actually does.

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886064 << iirc ave1 found how to expose the init knob explicitly. you may want to try his method ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 14:07 diana_coman: can't make it static because then it doesn't link in the adainit, adafinal

asciilifeform: guten morgen, Mocky

Mocky: good morning

Mocky: how goes ch 15 asciilifeform ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2019/i-think-it-might-be-the-case-im-becoming-pretentious/#comment-127374

asciilifeform: Mocky: proggy written, nao writin' proof

asciilifeform: Mocky: ( yes stein is a pretty simple item, quite unlike e.g. barrett, but still gotta give pedantic convergence proof for it )

asciilifeform: Mocky: ch16 will be about m-r .

asciilifeform: last night i re-read diana_coman's piece on m-r , it is interesting just how much sweat diana_coman had to put in simply on account of koch gnarl ☟︎

asciilifeform brb,teatime

feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/01/lone-university-employed-sokal-squared-author-faces-sanctions-as-apparently-academic-journal-editors-are-uninformed-human-research-subjects-and-not-human-spam-filters/ << Qntra -- Lone University Employed 'Sokal Squared' Author Faces Sanctions As Apparently Academic Journal Editors Are 'Uninformed Human Research Subjects' And Not Human Spam Filters

diana_coman: asciilifeform, yes, it's the tasking re http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886099 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 15:10 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886065 << hmm diana_coman , what piece in your proggy actually uses elaboration ? ( is it the tasking ? )

diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886104 -> I seem to have missed this; ave1, did you find a way to expose the adainit for static libs? ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 15:16 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886064 << iirc ave1 found how to expose the init knob explicitly. you may want to try his method

mircea_popescu: keks, they finally found the "legalaction" way to plug the femtard "scholar" hole ?

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform answered!

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i suspect that even if you get the thing to properly link, you will discover new headaches on acct of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-06#1885177 . really imho proggy that has ada tasks oughta have ada main , and (if must) call static cpp turdola, not vice-versa ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-06 17:28 asciilifeform: the 1st step to adaizing a cpp turd is to remove the cpp threadisms, they will not only not work with ada's sane tasking but actually destroy the guarantees of the latter

asciilifeform: cuz in the vice-versa variant, what you'll have is ~two~ threading systems that dun know about one another, and the shit one (cpp) doesn't have any concept of sane locks etc

asciilifeform: BingoBoingo: hey, if microshit can have weev jailed for munging URLs, why not acade-microshit and some other d00d , similarly

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform consider the problem at hand : there's 200k loc in a hairball currently.

asciilifeform: oh i recall

asciilifeform: it's a trb-like item

mircea_popescu: right

mircea_popescu: now obviously, "best place for ada code is in ada program". but the issue here is how to effectually corrupt, stupidity into sense.

asciilifeform: i strongly suspect it'll have to be de-threaded to work reliably with ada-cum-tasks , sadly

mircea_popescu: it's getting dethreaded, sure.

asciilifeform: (i.e. cut into sections that can run reentrantly)

mircea_popescu: fwiw, it uses threads for no practical purpose, just ot say it uses them

asciilifeform: exactly like trb then

mircea_popescu: quite, yes.

asciilifeform has not studied mircea_popescu's proggy, of yet, doesn't dare to comment in detail

mircea_popescu: in fact it's 100% trb toy/"training muppet"

mircea_popescu: "learn how to operate by cutting on this textile dolly"

asciilifeform: aint there a multi-MB '3d' lib in there also ?

mircea_popescu: but no ssl :D

asciilifeform: lol prolly no bdb also

mircea_popescu: mysql.

mircea_popescu: ~same, really.

asciilifeform: hm it actually links in ~all~ of mysql ? or just has the typical 'connect to local instance' skin ?

mircea_popescu: skin

asciilifeform: aa

asciilifeform: so like phuctor.

mircea_popescu: nah, i'd hope phuctor's better interfaced.

asciilifeform: ( phuctor connects to a local instance of postgres, so in that sense similar )

asciilifeform: incidentally i cant think of any reason it wouldn't work exactly same with mysql, with the exception of where i dun yet know how to do the o(n log n) indices in mysql

asciilifeform: re: ada elaboration, i found http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-20#1741485 item useful when i was last puzzling over subj ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-20 23:36 asciilifeform: meanwhile, from the dept of interesting but dead, http://adagin.blogspot.com

asciilifeform: ( pretty lively pedagogy, too, e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-20#1741487 ) ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-20 23:38 asciilifeform: typical, http://adagin.blogspot.com/2013/12/ada-2005-access-types-part-i.html , lively : type Hooker_Array is array (Positive range <>) of Hooker_Class_Ptr; procedure Violate_Bodies (x : Hooker_Array); ... 'We want to track all our victims, presumably in some sort of set or container, so that we might disinter them later as needed. Similarly, we might also want to do strange, awful things with the dead bodies of the hookers.'

mircea_popescu: "This is neatly decomposed (ha!) into a class hierarchy:" << guy's pretty cool.

asciilifeform: sadly vanished in '15

asciilifeform: i suspect he was 'old guard' (ada greybeard) and the bottle took its toll.

mircea_popescu: "But the type conversion rules for pointers are not so easily duped; there are no "classwide pointers" (thought perhaps life would be different if there were!). " << motherfucker on a stick, i want "classwide pointers" ie, "this door ambiguously links to any of the mcdonalds not any specific one" as i want to wake up to being assfucked by chtulhu. ☟︎

mircea_popescu: what the fuck.

BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: hey, if microshit can have weev jailed for munging URLs, why not acade-microshit and some other d00d , similarly << There is still lulz to play out. He's being prosecuted in university research court (similar to University title ix court), unlikely to be fired, but if he is the bar will be lowered. Maybe to the point we can have a fire PSU faculty bot.

mircea_popescu: am i the only one to whom this seems like going the exact wrong fucking way ?

mircea_popescu: and what fucking "object oriented"

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: sorta why i suspect 'greybeard'. prolly he also had a 200kloc (or 2e6...) that had to be dealt with as-is, pointerola & all.

asciilifeform: ( observe, the only 'access pointer' in ffa is where it sucks in cmdline args from unix )

asciilifeform: the world of the folx who wrote ada for moneys in the saeculum, is not , as i gather, a happy place. sorta why asciilifeform had to learn buncha things from 1st principles, rather than by reading their ugh

mircea_popescu: this guy's write-up makes me want to ban ada.

asciilifeform: i have even moar wtf items in my collection.

asciilifeform: ( observe that ch1 ffa actually starts out by http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1913#selection-337.0-1150.0 , i.e. banning 90% of ada.. why didja suppose this was. )

asciilifeform: 'new shithouse is built from the rubble of the old, not imported brick' or how did lenin put it.

asciilifeform: phunphakt: in ye olde bolixtron, there is an ada ( and fortran! ) compiler. (however asciilifeform has not tried either item, beyond 'hello world' )

asciilifeform: it , if one is to believe the docs, implements the '83 standard.

asciilifeform: ( the fortran - f77 )

asciilifeform actually considered a fortran ffa, in '16

diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886159 -> well yes, trying to "dupe" the rules can't be anything other than trying to corrupt the thing back into what-we-know (and possibly like or not but at least are used to it) ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 17:06 mircea_popescu: "But the type conversion rules for pointers are not so easily duped; there are no "classwide pointers" (thought perhaps life would be different if there were!). " << motherfucker on a stick, i want "classwide pointers" ie, "this door ambiguously links to any of the mcdonalds not any specific one" as i want to wake up to being assfucked by chtulhu.

ave1: hmm I was talking to feedbot to up myself

ave1: diana_coman, look into https://www.cs.fsu.edu/~baker/ada/gnat/html/gnat_ugn_5.html#SEC73

ave1: all these extra code generation in Ada is managed with gnatbind

asciilifeform: wb ave1

diana_coman: ave1, hm, I did look in there when I made the first go aka I compiled step by step the whole thing; but I don't recollect any real alternative to the standalone lib if one wants to pack the code really

diana_coman: I'll have another look at any rate, can't hurt

ave1: I can do some experimentation, but this will take a bit longer (got to go now...)

diana_coman: I suppose I can further look at what gprbuild does for standalone libs and then force it into what I want but ...

diana_coman: ave1, it's not burning right now, no

diana_coman: ffs jamfile shit: I did not have a space between lib name and ; so it...silently ignored it and ate my time grrrr

diana_coman: if there was more need for hating jam, it's there

asciilifeform: diana_coman: what is 'jam' ?

diana_coman: yet another tool that "makes building simple" don't you know; eulora's client has a WHOLE pile of scripts on top of jam on top of autotools and all that

asciilifeform: ugh

diana_coman: for all my hate of them, atm they...build the whole mess of plugins and whatnots so sweeping them aside would take some effort, not insignificant

diana_coman: yes, a ton of ugh

asciilifeform: what's it do that gnumake, cmake, etc dun do ?

asciilifeform: btw it is possible to build cpp with gnatmake, believe or not ( i only tried for simplest case, but does work )

diana_coman: asciilifeform, I suppose www.perforce.com/documentation/jam-documentation will explain that in triplicate

diana_coman: and yes, I'd much rather use gnatmake for the whole pile of shit but atm the idea was to focus on a *different* part of the shit, since there are so many and I'm only one

asciilifeform: 'Jam runs on UNIX, VMS, NT, OS/2, Mac OS X, and Mac MPW' << if troo, notbad at least in re portability

diana_coman: myeah, that's part of the thing: as it is, it is at least tested that people managed to compile the whole thing on different platforms

asciilifeform: i find it interesting just how many half-working substitutes for gnumake folx have written

diana_coman: in the same vein of interesting as http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-09#1886113 ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2019-01-09 15:36 asciilifeform: last night i re-read diana_coman's piece on m-r , it is interesting just how much sweat diana_coman had to put in simply on account of koch gnarl

asciilifeform: there are so many and I'm only one << i admit that i'm a little curious why diana_coman & mircea_popescu dun enlist Mocky to carry on client dev -- but it's not my biz , if they dun feel like going into subj, i won't cry

asciilifeform: ( perhaps can assume either that Mocky could not stomach it, or charged toomuch )

Mocky: asciilifeform, http://logs.bvulpes.com/eulora?d=2018-7-16#401001

asciilifeform: aah

BingoBoingo: Meanwhile in local news: Argentina ~30% poorer than last year in yet another metric https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/-desastre-y-fatal-temporada-en-punta-del-este-segun-comerciantes-201917204123

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ftjam pretty much the standard alternative to mod6 style handmade .sh

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i read the link from earlier, made sense

asciilifeform: there's 9000 of these, 'cmake', 'bake', 'qtmake', etc

mircea_popescu: yeah, but this one works. sorta like there's 5000 "operating systems", but we use cuntoo.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: does it work in that 'it worx, and 7 others previously barfed' or 'it was 1st i happened to try and it seems to work' ?

mircea_popescu: the former, chet spent 3 months with this shit cca 2013

asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu says -- i'll believe

asciilifeform: in the past asciilifeform used ordinary gnumake for this kinda thing. but it usually resulted in 1000ln 'make'.

mircea_popescu: yes well.

asciilifeform: ( aand on top of that, is victim of the faux-standardization pestilential in unixland )

mircea_popescu: also, remarkably stable, i've not had to fiddle with the original ftjam, client compiles today same exact way it did back then. which...

mircea_popescu: i know of no project that can say same over half decade.

asciilifeform: if you never fiddled with the layout, why shouldn't it work