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mircea_popescu: !!up fromloper
deedbot: fromloper voiced for 30 minutes.
fromloper: Thank you.
mircea_popescu: sure. what's up ?
fromloper: I have several questions, mostly for Stan, but since you are here, is Mpex still functional?
mircea_popescu: yes.
fromloper: Interesting, although I feel the 50 btc fee might be a bit high nowadays for attracting new users.
mircea_popescu: doesn't seem to hurt airbus.
fromloper: I guess. My main question for your community here concerns OS security. Basically, is OpenVMS too good to be true?
fromloper: It's written in a combination of three highly insecure languages (C, VAX macro, and BLISS), yet it averages very low bug counts.
fromloper: Maybe no one here knows, but I figured it's worth a shot asking. Your community seems very knowledgeable and security conscious.
shinohai: I've heard of it, but wasn't interested because closed source.
mircea_popescu: !#s openvms
a111: 8 results for "openvms", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=openvms
fromloper: I joke that the OS is actually cursed since every CPU arch that it has been ported to has died relatively fast. Since it's being ported right now to x86_64 I hope I'm actually right.
deedbot: http://www.contravex.com/2018/02/18/the-shape-of-dust-settling/ << Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - The shape of dust settling.
shinohai: gm tmsr
trinque: anyone opposed to me removing pete_dushenski from the RSS list? this benchwarmer commentary thing is about enough. contribute or get lost.
diana_coman: trinque, I agree
shinohai: Certainly wasn't encouraging reading material.
diana_coman: also: is ave1's blog in the rss list? I find it quite useful
BingoBoingo: Mornin' folks
BingoBoingo: trinque diana_coman: sounds like solid ideas
mircea_popescu: trinque should prolly make the public blog rss thing a l1 blackballable item. ie anyone deedbot trusts can ask (in channel) for any item to be discontinued -- and it is.
mircea_popescu: then the corresponding can also be implemented (l1 can have any blog added). vaguely curious as to results.
deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/02/indias-city-union-bank-claims-2-million-usd-loss-through-swift/ << Qntra - India's City Union Bank Claims 2 Million USD Loss Through SWIFT
mircea_popescu: in other news, ben_vulpes / mod6 , i had a good rant all summoned up on the topic of "motherfucker, after years of watching me do business publicly, including the lot with bingoboingo, you lot revert to the tardstalk style of 'secrecy' the moment gotta stop nodding along and actually put hands into pie".
mircea_popescu: such a fine rant it was, too! however, i looked over teh pizarro logs, an' there's evidently no room for it. so good for you! my poor rant, now has nowhere to go an' nothing to do ;/
mircea_popescu: meanwhile asciilifeform is actually idiotic enough to "hates my face" ? really, dood ? because why, because you fucked up, AGAIN, are fully determined to not fix it, and consequently "mp hates me" ? who the fuck do you think you are to be worthy of such wonders ? my hate, really ?
mircea_popescu: "random guy i picked to treat as daddy refuses to '''prove his love for me''' ie satisfy my http://trilema.com/2009/exceptionalismul-feminin/ expectations and therefore HE HATES ME!!11". because the 9yo ego decides the relationships and stuff. nuts.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu is missing out on a great career as psychoanalyst ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: for sake of argument, what means 'fix' ?
mircea_popescu: i dunno dood, it's largely a personal matter. as far as visible from outside, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-16#1715079 is as good an approximation as any.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-09-16 00:06 BingoBoingo: !~step 1
mircea_popescu: true, your addiction is not alcohol ; it is http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/02/06/its-only-words-and-assumptions-and-priorities-and-ouch/#comment-1075 instead. but the differences are barely worth the mention, psychanalitically they both play exactly the same role.
mircea_popescu: you're abusing time exactly like random housewife abuses benzedrine, and to shockingly similar results. apparently the quality of input meat reflects in the exoticism of the substance chosen, not at all in the path taken down adiction tobogan.
mircea_popescu: which is a remarkable thing.
mircea_popescu: (and, for the "missing out on career" random (and consequently almost guaranteed to run into grief) potshot : it so happens, like many other things do happen, that mp was in charge of a town at a point in its history when an amphetamine epidemic hit the (very, VERY competent, poorly equipped, badly overworked) medical staff. there was a lot of "x ?! x is beyond brilliance, there isn't a y surgeon like him mentioned in history
mircea_popescu: , let alone working anywhere today". yes, sure, and he's doing 16 doses a day and he butchered two people, lawds mercy.)
mircea_popescu: for his sins and youthful naivite, mp sided with the exceptionalism view way too long.
mircea_popescu: but, for his wasted "coin", back in a day before coin was even invented, yet wots still existed, mp also knows as a factual, rather than guessed matter, what all is down that road.
asciilifeform: i recall the story of the addicted surgeons. was there a ro trilema on subj, or only the 1 thread here ?
mircea_popescu: i dun recall an article.
asciilifeform: so then i cannot resist to ask, how did mircea_popescu solve the surgeons
mircea_popescu: i solved nothing.
mircea_popescu: what fucking solve.
asciilifeform: well 'in charge of town' suggests a possible active ending to the story
mircea_popescu: ah. yes, there was a year and a half long utter shortage of amphetamine. what can you do.
mircea_popescu: "mp is medically illiterate and hates random doc's guts".
asciilifeform: lol
mircea_popescu: "which is why he sent his henchmen to break both his arms and each finger ; it has nothing to do with impudently ignored warnings."
asciilifeform: but did it produce a sober doc , or empty hospital .
mircea_popescu: a mix. what can it possibly produce, what do you think this is, the cartoons ?
mircea_popescu: addiction produces sadness.
asciilifeform: knowing only what's been said so far by mircea_popescu , it'd seem to me as if the story would have ended similarly, even had the dope never been discovered. unless the meth was somehow the reason for the entire town having 1 surgeon left.
mircea_popescu: the problems of governance is that you're stuck choosing between 50% loss 55% gain and 48% loss 56% gain sorta deals. there's no "solutions".
mircea_popescu: from the civillian pov, "yes, it's all the same". meanwhile 1% summed over ten thousand iterations, which is what civilisation is, comes to... guess.
asciilifeform does not disagree
asciilifeform: don't forget 'whom to send to plug what embrasure'
mircea_popescu: 16358287111888959696680983838486196055353569.308466978, for the mathematically slow.
asciilifeform: oddly enuff mircea_popescu mentioned time, and its abuse; asciilifeform is using a chess-clock system atm, has 3m remaining
asciilifeform: ( after this, bbl in the evening )
mircea_popescu: this is not even a bad idea.
mod6: mornin'
ben_vulpes: heya mod6
mod6: So reading through some of the comments, questions, concerns rasised by mircea_popescu, and diana_coman, I started thinking yesterday that maybe -- since there are specifically hard-to-draw lines between mod6's role as Foundation Co-Chair, ben_vulpes's role as Foundation Co-Chair and their roles as ``managers'' or ``management'' in Pizarro ...
mod6: there might be a better way to go about this without the Foundation's involvement. Like I said before, I could have just put up my own coin for this. Just again, as discussed yesterday, the thought was "Can The Bitcoin Foundation do something here to help Pizarro, for the Republic and the betterment of Bitcoin as a whole?"
mod6: And I believe that answer, passing the smell test, was "Yes, indeed it can." "This is a useful expendature of the monies."
mod6: When thinking about how to re-structure, or re-word some of the Pizarro Charter, it becomes way simpler, and easier with The Bitcoin Foundation out of the equation. And probably would provide for a better structure, a more sound structure, perhaps.
mod6: I'll admit that how it is with the 1-to-1 matching and so forth with asciilifeform, seems to be a bit of 'bubblegum+shoestring', which, let's face facts, it is. This is somewhat of an emergency put together entity.
mod6: What I'm offering, if it is more palatable, is for me to return the Foundation's money and make that whole again, and instead offer up a 5 BTC private / or gift to Pizarro.
mod6: Of my own coin. (sorry, didn't mean to end the sentence ahead of time).
ben_vulpes: not unreasonable, and it does clean up the ownership structure significantly.
mod6: Let's discuss, and see what makes the most sense.
ben_vulpes: i'd rather you invest those 5 btc rather than simply give them; it doesn't make a great deal fo sense to 'give' a notionally someday-profitable entity money and furthermore i'd rather you didn't just wash your hands of the whole thing if i can convince you to stick around.
ben_vulpes: your public-relations work to date has been pretty valuable, for one.
mod6: I think I could be persuaded to do that.
mod6: Let's see where this conversation goes.
mod6: I'm gonna give mircea_popescu, diana_coman, BingoBoingo, asciilifeform, phf, and others time to catch up and weigh in, if so desired.
shinohai: https://www.freebsd.org/internal/code-of-conduct.html <<< "Harassment includes but is not limited to: Physical contact and simulated physical contact (e.g., textual descriptions like "*hug*" or "*backrub*") without consent or after a request to stop."
ben_vulpes: it's gonna make things complicated on statements this month but i can handle that
shinohai: what about *rape*
mod6: ben_vulpes: yeah, the SoBA is gonna be a bear this month indeed.
mod6: I also still plan to, if I can get a few minutes here, to publish V 99993.
ben_vulpes: so ftr i've disposed of 1.16578854 BTC of the foundation's capital this month; 0.8 in purchasing mircea_popescu's debt and 0.36578854 in servers owned by the foundation; so the sum to which the foundation's piggy is involved is 0.8 BTC
mod6: That seems accurate to me as well, as the foundation owns the server assets.
mod6: (worth .3657884)
mod6: Ahem. 0.36578854 BTC.
trinque: curious what you gents think would be an appropriate foundation expenditure
mircea_popescu: mod6 you can't have multiple managers. there has to be a guy that stops the buck.
mod6: trinque: This is a very good question, and so far, other than Pizarro, adds up to 1 renewal of a domain name.
ben_vulpes: trinque: i maintain that the expenditures to date have been appropriate and legitimate, but am compelled by mod6's argument that actually embroiling the foundation in the ownership of Pizarro complicates it unnecessarily
ben_vulpes: mod6: i think you meant "board members" upstack, not "managers"
mod6: mircea_popescu: I think the offer on the table, from ben_vulpes, was for him to be "manager". Am I correct, ben_vulpes?
mod6: Ah, yes. Forgive me.
trinque does not take a position on whether it was appropriate in either direction
mod6: You are to be manager, there are to be greater than one board memebers.
trinque: if discussing it, oughta define how appropriate is judged
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-19#1784999 << there is, at the very least, a defensible strongline in there : "since the foundation is entitled in 1 per thousand from all income in tax, it is necessarily acceptable for the foundation to invest 1 per thousand of capital in any and all ventures, as a matter of principle. that chairs may opt to eschew this for many is a practical matter at their disposal".☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-02-19 16:45 mod6: there might be a better way to go about this without the Foundation's involvement. Like I said before, I could have just put up my own coin for this. Just again, as discussed yesterday, the thought was "Can The Bitcoin Foundation do something here to help Pizarro, for the Republic and the betterment of Bitcoin as a whole?"
ben_vulpes: trinque: "knowledge descends from authority"
mircea_popescu: so there's necessarily nothing wrong with foundation being equitably involved. now, how much... well, this is more of an open question.
mod6: trinque: to me, it's not that expendature is inappropriate, that's not what I'm saying. I think trying to help Pizarro get off the launch pad is a great thing for the Foundation to do.
mircea_popescu: i don't think it's undefensible in the least to say "well, item x has to work, we can't deny it capital, so we're there in the front line". which is kinda what it came to.
mircea_popescu: but i also think it's sensible for people involved to contribute capital privately.
mod6: What I think is that it maybe clearer, better for Pizarro to have private investment -- especially since the two co-chairs are also going to be involved in either "management" or "board seats".
mircea_popescu: so restructure the deal, have the foundation put in a bitcoin, get a seat for it, put a coupla bitcoin each of you, get a seat for it each, or whatever's convenient.
mircea_popescu: the reason you made that a draft is so it's drafted upon neh.
mod6: Exactly.
mod6: Here's the thing, if the foundation gets a board seat, who is to represent it impartially or what not? In the given case where I have 1 board seat from say 1 BTC, and ben has one from 1 BTC.
ben_vulpes: mod6: you and i decide who to stick on it
mod6: Can I represent the foundation from one seat, and then myself from another?
ben_vulpes: i don't see why not
mircea_popescu: mod6 nothing prevents you from discussing it publicly. "here's the issue before the board, here's what i think foundation should do, here's what ben_vulpes thinks it should do, this is what we'll be doing, comment"
mircea_popescu: quite literally, "measure to so and so is coming before pizarro board ; ben_vulpes is voting x, mod6 is voting y, foundation should vote z according to so and so considerations..."
mircea_popescu: there's nothing intrinsically wrong about wearing different hats. a situation can be seen from different perspectives, why not.
mircea_popescu: in other words, there's no need to provision for "impartially" ahead of time, as you have a (working, proven) mechanism to realise that jit.
mircea_popescu: (just in time)
trinque: ben_vulpes obviously said it better than I could have. the foundation's interests are in bitcoin; couldn't be more broad a justification for involvement in society as the chairs deem.
trinque: * mircea_popescu obviously said it better than
mircea_popescu: o
trinque: I mean, I'll be curious when y'all start an alpaca farm, but hey
mircea_popescu: ahahaha
mod6: heheh
ben_vulpes: trinque: socks!
mod6: ^
mircea_popescu: hey, i took girls to llamas! WE ARE APPROACHING
ben_vulpes: it's the most important thing one can buy with bitcoins dontchaknow
mod6: The smile on the llamas face was best btw.
mircea_popescu: mod6 i thought it was more of a "umm... more of these ? ya ok."
mod6: heheh.
mod6: maybe so.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-19#1785005 << what's your position there, do you want to capitalize ? to what sort of level ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-02-19 16:51 ben_vulpes: not unreasonable, and it does clean up the ownership structure significantly.
ben_vulpes: i'm actually thinking to capitalize by working on the thing; could easily eat 3.5 btc of my time in the first year alone
mircea_popescu: yes, but this is an iffy point in that it's hard to guess how palatable this'd be to the equity.
mircea_popescu: i'm not saying your work is worthless ; i am however saying it's a difficult to price category.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-19#1785018 << how did it end up owning iron, i missed out on this.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-02-19 17:06 mod6: That seems accurate to me as well, as the foundation owns the server assets.
mod6: maybe mod6 gift's you 1 BTC for board seat?
ben_vulpes: yeah certainly. for my learnings, how did you price chet's ssw's in the early days of s.mg? by having known her forever?
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: i hadn't disclosed that yet, at the time of purchase it seemed appropriate to disclose in the monthly
mircea_popescu: ah.
ben_vulpes: but needed disambiguating now.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes but those were ~warrants~ mind you.
mircea_popescu: and yes, this is what would probably be a fine solution here, you taking warrants. if the equity value goes up you're obviously entitled to profit ; and otherwise... well... more work to do.
mod6: That may not be a bad idea. However, there's maybe a lot more that needs to go into creating something like that. Not sure what our time-horizon is here...
ben_vulpes: i steal from teh best
ben_vulpes: mod6: i can get this drafted with plenty of time for asciilifeform to review before his evening visit
ben_vulpes: pretty straightforward, actually
mod6: Well, chew on this a bit. Let's think all this through.
mircea_popescu: bah.
mod6: haha
mircea_popescu: gullible fool that i am, i will even allow myself to be seduced into living the 5th point ; on conditions : to asciilifeform that he principally sticks to a timekeeping and scheduling method of his design, at the bare minimum the proverbial chess clock and corkboard ; and subsidiarily that he gets the girl to take a (~candid!~) shot of him with the instruments sometime this week. give the girl a camera, have her take a bunch,
mircea_popescu: pick one and publish it. THIS WEEK.
mircea_popescu: and to ben_vulpes that you will not allow the natural and understandable desire of strive avoiding to guide you into nonsense, but will firmly commit to clearly and openly discuss problems.
mircea_popescu: lifting not living heh.
mircea_popescu: (instruments = selfsame chess clock and corkboard)
mircea_popescu: and with that, there you go : have mod6 and asciilifeform each pay in 10 btc, have the foundation give out 1 btc also, making a total of 11 ; give tbf and the equity partners a seat each for a total of 3 ; have ben_vulpes and BingoBoingo get stock warrants monthly on some sort of agreed upon scheme and there you go.
ben_vulpes: well that's a doubling of extant capital commitments, but that works for me.
ben_vulpes: i'll let the other two chime in.
ben_vulpes: anyways, i appreciate everyone's time in refining the structure.
mircea_popescu: wait what ?
mircea_popescu: what doubling do you speak of
ben_vulpes: "mod6 and ben_vulpes have extended 5 BTC of The Bitcoin Foundation's capital in credit to further start-up and operating costs associated with taking over the ashes of BISP and bringing a new venture to profitability. asciilifeform will match the Foundation's capital 1-to-1. "
mod6: So, let's see: 5 BTC from mod6, 5 BTC fom asciilifeform, 1 BTC from The Bitcoin Foundation = 11 BTC. One board seat for each of these; mod6, asciilifeform, and The Bitcoin Foundation. ben_vulpes, and BingoBoingo are to be given Special Stock Warrants for their work.
mircea_popescu: right mod6
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes this is rewording, not addwording.
ben_vulpes: ah "
ben_vulpes: "each pay in 10 btc" threw me
mircea_popescu: o fuck, yeah. i meant 5.
ben_vulpes: no harm in pedantry here.
mod6: It did me too, but I figured what he meant from 11 BTC total.
mircea_popescu: none at all.
mod6: aha, thanks for the guidence here.
mircea_popescu: anyway, 11 btc is actually a huge first round. you can always do an a round later.
mod6: I agree, on both parts mircea_popescu.
mod6: I hope that it would be an initial amount that will get pizarro off the launch pad.
mircea_popescu: mod6 is it open for others ? or are you happy to keep it narrow for now ?
ben_vulpes: we'll keep it narrow for now.
mircea_popescu: works.
mircea_popescu: hey, is this actually you lot's first start-up note stage thingee ?
mod6: Yeah, for me.
mircea_popescu: amusingly, much in the vein of "all lugs tumble the same in the lug tumbler" point from before, this is ~almost exactly~ how it works in fiatlandia too. a week's worth of hairpulling and lost nights and so on.
mod6: I think it's worth it, to go through the hairpulling, to turn it from "adventure" into "venture".
mod6: Give it the best possible chance of success out of the gate.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes you committed to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-19#1785088 ?☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-02-19 17:31 mircea_popescu: and to ben_vulpes that you will not allow the natural and understandable desire of strive avoiding to guide you into nonsense, but will firmly commit to clearly and openly discuss problems.
ben_vulpes: aye, quite.
ben_vulpes: and yes, 'tis my first round
mod6: trinque: hey, suggestion here for deedbot.org -- A link from the homepage to the Help (help.html) would be nice. or i'd settle for one in the "frequently asked questions" page too.
mod6: (did I just not see it? maybe it's already there somewhere)
mod6: !!balance
deedbot: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/SJKf6/?raw=true
mod6: !!pay shinohai 0.03000000
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/l2z36/?raw=true
mod6: !!v 6488330E8BD5E2D68C38ECBAA9E71692D5D9241ECE339BD300AF99C402042DF5
deedbot: mod6 paid shinohai 0.03000000
mod6: What a time to be alive, I tell you.
shinohai: Runs circles around the original gribble wallet plugin.
deedbot: http://deedbot.org/bundle-503584.txt
deedbot: http://deedbot.org/bundle-506234.txt
deedbot: http://deedbot.org/bundle-507863.txt
trinque: just noticed the poor thing was gagged at the UI level, thanks mod6
trinque: and help link added
mod6: nice! thanks trinque
ben_vulpes: !!up freakyfractal
deedbot: freakyfractal voiced for 30 minutes.
ben_vulpes: what brings you by, freakyfractal ?
freakyfractal: howdy
freakyfractal: had some time.. was lookin for an old friend
ben_vulpes: by the name of ... ?
freakyfractal: pretty sure it's shinohai
shinohai: oh hai freakyfractal
freakyfractal: :D
shinohai: Where the bjeezus you bee? Thought you had been raped and murdered by thai ladybois
freakyfractal: xD
freakyfractal: raped not murdered
freakyfractal: been working.. might be changing that up soon tho
shinohai: Are you back in Spain yet .... or?
freakyfractal: Spain currently, but going back to Thailand
mod6: Gotta few things to take care of, be back in a bit.
BingoBoingo: <mod6> I'm gonna give mircea_popescu, diana_coman, BingoBoingo, asciilifeform, phf, and others time to catch up and weigh in, if so desired.<< It appears my opportunity to worry on this came and was addressed while getting the tooth repaired. 2300 pesos. That
BingoBoingo: 's 500 pesos less than a benjie
ben_vulpes: https://arxiv.org/abs/1802.06038 << "on a subset of 3,759 contracts which we sampled for concrete validation and manual analysis, we reproduce real exploits at a true positive rate of 89%, yielding exploits for 3,686 contracts"
shinohai: I'm sure with time they can get that number closer to 100%
diana_coman: in lulz from the (eu)crypt: gnatmake helpfully complains about all sorts in a .gpr file; once everything is fine, it.. fails with a very informative "aggregate libraries are not supported"; and indeed one has to use gprbuild and nothing else for aggregate libraries
diana_coman: gprbuild from adacore works however fine to build aggregate libs as far as I can tell
mircea_popescu: so wait, is gnat broken is the idea ?
diana_coman: theoretically as far as I can tell it's a feature, not a bug aka "it's not gnatmake's business to do this, go use gprbuild"
mircea_popescu: so you basically have to chain them, gprbuild then gnat-make the objects or what ?
joecool: qntra interested in an exclusive?
joecool: BingoBoingo: ^
diana_coman: no, gprbuild is bright enough to do everything; BUT depending on what tools you have installed you can get weird errors when versions mismatch ; as we had experienced in logs before on various occasions
BingoBoingo: joecool: Sure, what about?
mircea_popescu: joecool im sure it is. gpg -aer bingo and p.bvulpes.com
diana_coman: well, I can talk only about gprbuild from ada being bright enough
diana_coman: as all my non-adacore environments proved a mess
mircea_popescu: diana_coman so basically a rut is shaping up here, "use gpr from adacore -- gnat / others dun actually work" ?
diana_coman: I would say: use adacore!
diana_coman: nuke the gnu gnat on sight unless you have time to lose and hair to pull
joecool: BingoBoingo: probable creators of bitcoin filed suit against each other last week, I have the complaint
mircea_popescu: joecool ahaha qntra is not publishing dumb shit about "probable creators of bitcoin"
joecool: nobody else has reported on it yet, but it's only a matter of time
diana_coman: fwiw re gprbuild the more I read on it the more I like it actually
diana_coman: but again, adacore gprbuild, I can't vouch for any other version atm
BingoBoingo: joecool: Write up a draft, if it's good it gets published but the premise makes this seem unlikely as framed by "probable creators"
joecool: mircea_popescu: nor do they need to publish it as that
mircea_popescu: aite, so write the piece up, bb is around so it can be quick
joecool: BingoBoingo: will do, I will not frame it as such
diana_coman: when non-adacore, one easily runs into issues such as http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-01#1745018☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-12-01 20:27 diana_coman: aaand gprbuild 2011-4 apparently is strictly married with gnat4.6; gah
mircea_popescu: diana_coman i guess once the eucrypt adventure is sealed a cover letter re ada-c integration may be a good idea, for future reference.
diana_coman: I'll focus for now on eucrypt; it has anyway ada-c integration itself so I'll see what I have by the end
shinohai: "Probable creators of Bitcoin" such lulz
ben_vulpes: i'm actually curious about the joecool scoop
shinohai: Oh I'm very curious, wondering if this is a hoaxtoshi sham or what.
joecool: ben_vulpes: i'm pulling the rest of the documents off pacer right now
joecool: there's a few hundred pages
mircea_popescu: scoops are cool.
joecool: deedbot woulda been useful for these guys
joecool: we have paper deeds to sums in the hundreds of thousands of btc :P
ben_vulpes: they'da had to have had the sense to use it