BingoBoingo: From the story it sounded worse than the picture I sent her looked. I will see if I can get pictures. of the repair. Damned ice cream cones full of dulche de leche with a hard chocolate shell.
asciilifeform: i did not break tooth today; but on other hand the city finally showed up to fix the gas leak i reported 3d ago , and they have dug a moat around my car, on sides, to do it...
TomServo: Wish I could help with any current woes, if that's possible lemme know.☟︎
mod6: Sure, feel free to stop into #pizarro or follow along in the logs!
hanbot: <ben_vulpes> attn all, here's a draft of the new articles of organization for what was BISP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/A5yUZ/?raw=true excoriate away << cool, thanks for posting. so: i would very much like to support bbisp/Pizarro, and I think it's great the foundation picked this up. while i think the particulars will likely prove challenging, i would have no problem putting faith, time, etc behind mod6 and ben_vulpes. a few weeks ago, that wo
hanbot: uld've extended to asciilifeform as well, but after a week + of stubborn refusal to admit wrongdoing or show any signs of work towards avoiding said wrongdoing in the future, i'd be acting ---very irresponsibly--- if i let my admiration of the man and his past work (or my dislike of the discord lately) obfuscate a serious, present, problem. anyway, looking forward to reading the communications, assuming those are still coming. if not, the questio
a111: Logged on 2018-02-18 04:41 hanbot: n stands: why are they not logged?
trinque: I'd say any judgment of how they're doing (at what, a day in?) is premature.☟︎
hanbot: sure, fine logs starting today. what were the "discussions" variously mentioned, that led to this point? what, if anything, has been the resolution of the problem in which 50% of the ownership refuses to meet own deadlines?
trinque: when the fuck did you want them to start, exactly?
a111: Logged on 2018-02-17 19:20 mod6: Our plan is to publish what are plan is, we're working on that literally, right now.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-17 15:22 BingoBoingo: diana_coman: The new management is working out the details for their clean takeover of the remains of BBISP as a new venture. I defer the revelation of details to management.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-14 20:34 mod6: jurov: We're working out the details on that. Good question though.
trinque: so leaving alf aside, when two folks dive on this boondoggle of a business venture to right it, we're going to suspect their methods and forget their long reputations?☟︎
hanbot: not at all (where's that?). the question is where's the discussion that brought them to the document published today, and if that discussion's private, why?
trinque: earlier diana_coman's bitching they didn't define the day-old business venture. now you're bitching they didn't tell you why they chose that definition, a few hours later.
trinque: I see pointless sniping and nothing further.
hanbot: trinque i'm not asking to be told anything. i'm asking why there were "discussions" over the course of several days that haven't been made public. this isn't to gripe at anyone, this is an attempt to preserve what's possibly the most useful tool of the republic, i.e. logging.
mod6: I wanted to give us some space to find out the details, to discuss everything involved. I for one, even having been in #trilema the entire time, and even having read BB's blog posts about BBISP, I still wanted to give BB the space to discuss with us all the details.
mod6: Things like, what the bills were, where they need to be sent, who would do what. This kind of thing.☟︎
mod6: Quite frankly, and I hope BB doesn't mind me saying so, we kinda needed to even talk him into it. I think he was in quite a state of dismay at the whole thing. And I find it appropriate that we did that.
mod6: There isn't anything to hide. We've been forthcoming about the entire venture.
hanbot: aha. bills & addys and similar stuff being private makes sense; why's who would do what private, though? ah, that kind of "space". yes, it satisfies my curiosity, thank you for clarifying. fwiw i'm not sure what can be gained from "space" as such - often what's most uncomfortable is what best leads to recovery and growth. but obviously your choice(s).
mod6: I guess I'll also add this: I agree that logging is very important. But lately, in here, emotions have been running high. And while trying to figure out the details, I need to focus and not read through hundreds of lines of cross talk and bickering.
hanbot: is the matter of what's going to be done re asciilifeform's current...stance also private?
mod6: I don't think so at all. His role is outlined in the drafted document we posted above.
mod6: Weather men admit wrongdoing or not, my hope is that men learn from the previous mistakes.
hanbot: sure, but given recent refusal to meet deadlines, why would a given customer expect to receive reliable service?
trinque: neh this much is true. I tried to pin alf earlier. he oughta reread that conversation.
trinque: he skitters sideways when certain triggers are hit and changes the subject
hanbot: mod6 indeed. but frankly, i haven't seen him say he would meet deadlines.
mod6: I have too, and I recently read the entire thread on diana_coman's blog too. The whole thing. I know shortcomings have impacted lots of things. He's not the only one guitly of that. And even though I don't excuse anyones failures, I'm going to forgive. We've gained more than we've lost. In my estimation.
mod6: I mean look, here's an example: I waited like nearly 4 years for an FG. But he delivered, and it works. It's a marvel, this FG. I think the fact that we have it, and it works, is more important than how long it took to realize.
trinque: gotta also admit that the enemy will not wait for you to be done with your superweapon.
mod6: After the first "Hey, we're getting FGs for xmas!" And then it didn't come, for like 2 more xmas's... i could have simply negrated him.
hanbot: mod6 i know the strife is unpleasant, and i admire your drive to right things. but there's an actual extant problem here, which, if merely forgiven, lends nothing to the notion the problem will cease.
trinque: hanbot: how do you resolve the man's issue then.
trinque: hanbot: problem of the practitioner is still how to jam that into the sick skull.
mod6: hanbot: I can't speak for asciilifeform and make him state things. But, perhaps if we kept a public calendar of what is happening when, might give the public some comfort that tasks are getting completed on time.
trinque: hanbot: I apologize for snapping at you. I think ben_vulpes and mod6 are doing a great thing coming in to try and save the project.
trinque: if someone wants asciilifeform's shares they are apparently for sale; they were offered to me
trinque: probably plenty of ways to improve their process from here, yet the thing was dead in the water, republic declared dead without hosting, and some folks came together against that.☟︎
mod6: That we did. And I for one, would love to see Mr. Popescu to come back and be the father to the republic.
hanbot: trinque true. i suppose some things can't be learned without an actual beating, delivered by an actual expert whisk. i don't really know to jam it into the sick skull, i guess. and no harm done, i've always appreciated your directness.
mod6: However, each man gets to decide if he wants to partake in the Republic. Mr. Popescu always said he would eventually leave. And I respect that. Just wish it wasn't in anger.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784630 << i think this isn't a satisfactory description of the issue for two reasons. one is that the man doesn't have merely very exacting standards, but a binome of which half is exacting standards and the other half is looser than a crack whore's butthole.☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-02-18 05:39 trinque: can say "time manage" and etc but the philosophical structure in his head will not permit works with ideological inconsistency to ship
mircea_popescu: think of it, the ~same guy~ who's saying ridiculous, and ridiculously unexamined things about boats, the http protocol and so on is also the same man willing to have mod6 do days' worth of testing with items swapped around to establish nothing in particular.
mircea_popescu: to him, it's not worth to take three seconds of his own time to think $random item through ; but to him it is also worth taking three days of another man's time (and often enough, the misfortunate other man is he himself!) to do nothing in particular with them.
mircea_popescu: the other issue is that the exacting standards part of the binome aren't exacting to a ~rational~ standard, they're exacting to a psychogenic standard. he's perfectly willing to take steps to alienproof his sub because he's seen alien pirates board a sub in a B movie once, that's the standard, what he can ~imagine~ occuring, not so much what he has good reason to believe may occur.
mircea_popescu: i don't, for the record, think there's anything even vaguely like malice involved. i think it's simply ambered childishness, which he has managed to preserve unexamined so long into his adult life because he's never before found himself among people intelligent enough to force him to examine it. the signs of this are ubiquitous and i won't belabour,
mircea_popescu: suffice to point out that evidently enough the whole binome as described is adaptive rather than designed. and it MUST be examined, and it must be repaired, rather than indulging in just as childish deflection. o noes, ~i~ of all people want to drive s.nsa into a wall, fancy that wonder!
mircea_popescu: the slowest release schedule in the world and all the rest of the stuff people don't say because they're affraid i might crack them one if they did say it certainly aren't driving anything into anything, rite. because we're playing Alf's Beginner Transaction Psychopathology and it's all explained in there in the inside of the top of the box!☟︎
mircea_popescu: so no, how about we don't discuss the random nonsense some 9yo captive inside stan would in his panicked despair have us rather occupy ourselves with. instead, exactly in trinque's practical terms : what the fuck am i going to do with a s.nsa resting on the clavicle of a grown man with 9yo shoulders!
mircea_popescu: originally i was going to just call it off, have it liquidated and so on. because yes eventually it has to come to this, nsa was started on the premise that "here is a talented engineer who evidently has little ability to take direction or manage himself, but which we're construing as due to poor prior context and expect will remedy itself, by itself, in short order".
mircea_popescu: what fucking short order, the end of a five year plan is nigh on in sight! by a cool account he's not gotten better at it, arguably he's even gotten worse at it, wut the everloving fuck do ?! tell me, and make sense while doing the telling!
mircea_popescu: otherwise, i think it's sufficiently self-obvious that nobody wants more crappy items. we've enough of those around to last a century. but i also won't sit still while being railroaded into a false choice between crappy items and never items ; if for no other reason then because too many people depend on me being at least slightly smarter than that.
mircea_popescu: that aside : danielpbarron phf what ever became of those fgs ?☟︎
a111: Logged on 2018-02-11 14:05 mircea_popescu: the reason i'm cutting you out is because we have very poor fit, i'm a "provide general guidance and hangings" sort of manager and you evidently need a mommy, to check whether you packed your lunch and to ask if you need to pee every so often. should you find one you can certainly thrive, but you've not found her in me is all.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-18 14:06 mircea_popescu: the slowest release schedule in the world and all the rest of the stuff people don't say because they're affraid i might crack them one if they did say it certainly aren't driving anything into anything, rite. because we're playing Alf's Beginner Transaction Psychopathology and it's all explained in there in the inside of the top of the box!
BingoBoingo: temperment problem in asciilifeform resisting direction or a middle manager's eyes glossing over and slacking the discipline after glimpses of tech that isn't shit.
BingoBoingo: Boy feelings are complicated and mircea_popescu has well earned another rum and girlie fueled retirement or semi-retirement. Wat do indeed?
mircea_popescu: there's a fundamental difference there bb, in that isp is a thing whereas most of what we're making is noit a thing. making a thing requires following the recipe, whereas making not-yet-a-thing is basically figuring out a recipe.
mircea_popescu: so nsa doesn't in this sense have the same sort of problem. it's a crisis of faith not of management.
mircea_popescu: so in no case what he needs is middle management ; moreover i expect half his problems come from inept fiatworld having its usual "one solution to end all problems".
BingoBoingo: This is a point. During a solid chunk of my formative young adult years my brain was somewhat insulated from a lot of the fiat world crap through having been preserved in cosmoline. And by cosmoline I mean cheap vodka.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-17 19:15 mod6: Upon the failure of bbisp, and Mr. Popescu's leaving TMSR, The Bitcoin Foundation, in a last-ditch effort to save the ISventure and the Republic (http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-13#1783471), has chosen to try to determine how / if it can do this without any outside interference.
shinohai: Afternoon, mircea_popescu .... enjoyed latest trilema thoroughly. Has been week of toucans between you and hanbot ^.^
mircea_popescu: they're pretty fucking cool. apparently there's many species, BUT! most of them have a buzz haircut!
a111: Logged on 2018-02-17 19:30 a111: Logged on 2016-10-04 14:17 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in other news i registered #loper-os and #asciilifeform defensively ; whenever you feel like building them up say and i'll pass them along.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform apparently i have to flag you as F on them ; for which we have to both be in. so at your leisure.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> ben_vulpes / mod6 do you want these ? (which one of you do i talk about re day to day bbisp bidniss ?). << you can talk to me any time about these things, or anything else really.
mod6: If I don't know the answer straight off, will ask ben_vulpes or whomever needs to be asked.
mod6: I expect quick turn around on questions -- As when emailing support, most queries can be responded to quickly. Others, maybe take 24-48 hours to have sorted.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes phf currently has two dozen that either fly to you or back to dbp, so which is it ?
ben_vulpes: send them to me please, stand by for mailing address
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes forward it to phf directly ; phf sorry for the bondogle, send me the bill for the mailing ; danielpbarron invoice bbisp cc mod6 for the pile.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-17 19:50 diana_coman: mod6, a stake in something is never "debt only" really the way I see it; honestly, would you offer to take an "iou" while at the same time being totally unwilling to even give advice if asked?
mircea_popescu: anyway ; there's a lot of business experience in disparate fields that has to be handled, and often the handling drives unexpected results and so on. part and parcel of the problem is that bitcoin ain't consumer finance and few people have any notion of anything else in that whole wide field.
mircea_popescu: like, the bill for the use of a hotel room is made up of a) the opportunity cost (what that room would have made if not given to you but to another) and b) the indemnity cost (ie, what all you wore down, ruined, stained and destroyed in there)
mircea_popescu: if i lend a btc to a guy, in a market where the discount rate (what AVERAGE capital returns are as per a, like the "cost of hotel rooms in this season/city) is 5% and whose survival rate is 33%
mircea_popescu: my capital will then cost 1 * 1.05 * 3 = 4.15. so he has to pay 3.15 to get the 1.
mircea_popescu: so now ... the COST of carrying capital as debt goes up immensely as soon as survival rates drop very slightly. start-up are notoriously unsurvivey, and so their debt would cost so much as to ensure their failure.
mircea_popescu: the only possible solution is convertible debt, ie, if they strike it big, you have some sort of claim, for the risk you took. and that is why all start-up debt is really convertible bonds in practice.
mod6: Alright, so as things in a start-up start to go south business-wise, for whatever reason, i.e. product sucks, whatever, the corresponding revenue/credit crunch makes it more and more difficult to service the debt.
mircea_popescu: nobody teaches these (basic, really, should be highschool) notions, and so people don't understand how humanity is, and was built. but bonds are a very sensitive actuarial tool, they react amplifiedly to death danger. whereas equity is a very sensitive to gains. and more generally, finance is worth studying altogether, it makes one smarter.
mircea_popescu: mod6 consider it with numbers. if a guy's survival probability is 95% and the discount rate is 5%, then for every coin he pays to service his debt, HALF covers the 95% and the other half the actual opportunity cost.
mircea_popescu: if his survival rate is 85%, he pays FOUR TIMES the discount rate.
mircea_popescu: (this, incidentally, is why us real estate first time buyers pay 6% even though the fed rate is .75% ; and this is HOW fed rates drive monetary policy. see ?)
mircea_popescu: anyway, the formula above stands : the capital (1 above) multiplied by the discount rate (1.05 above) multiplied by the survival odds (3 in the 33% survival rate example ; could as well be 10 in the 10% survival rate example, which iirc is what start-ups historically do)
mircea_popescu: because, obviously, if i lend to someone who has 10% chances of surviving, i want 10x my money so i can lend to ten of them and get a (slight, 5% sort of slight) profit.
mod6: you figure, one in ten should make it, then you get your 5%.
mod6: Alright, well, I think I might be missing something between the lines.
ben_vulpes: for a convertible note like that, how'd you go about setting the conversion rate? lots of yelling?☟︎
mod6: I may, indeed, need some education on basic finance. When it came to the .8 BTC owed to you, I never figured in anything like that. Are there terms that we were unaware of? Do you feel owed more than .8 BTC?
mod6: (fwiw, I mearly read ".8 BTC debt to MP" as something of a personal loan to BB since he was owner)
mircea_popescu: but no, it wasn't a personal loan to bb, it was a loan to bb's corp which bb guaranteed ; but which guarantee i let lapse when i sold (ie, didn't transfer to you, ie, yo ucan't now ask him for 2 btc * 8k usd or w/e the exact numbers were)
mircea_popescu: alternatively i might've not sold, and pursue him. this is the sort of option capital offers one -- you can always take your pick of two options in this vein. and if you can't, you've been swindled, not doing business.
hanbot: mircea_popescu sure thing, gimmie a coupla mins
hanbot: mircea_popescu basically they made a constitution ( http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/A5yUZ/?raw=true / just moved to http://pizarroisp.net/?p=3 ) yesterday, there's no releasing of whatever private discussions prior. they're going to do some power testing on customer boxes as a courtesy. ben_vulpes is going to take a few boxes there maybe next month. BingoBoingo "unsnarled" an mp-wp of unknown provenance, sadly he can't use the genesis item yet. some
hanbot: wrangling re buying fg from nsa, who handles suppliers, etc. punkman already there trying to silver-tongue them back into the velvety embrace of pantsuitlandia.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-18 04:59 trinque: appears to me the gents are getting things together for a clear, coherent offering.
a111: Logged on 2017-01-08 04:43 mircea_popescu: now - wut of all of this ? maybe it was the same guy, i guess, maybe there was a conspiracy to reboot the server, i guess, maybe etcetera. i'm unconvinced nor do i see it matters any.
mircea_popescu: e is, "like a republic but with secret agreements". and it proved (again, not to some sort of emo, but in actual practice) to not be good enough.
mircea_popescu: in other news, ben_vulpes mod6 is there some discussion that was had in foundation board as to the wisdom/opportunity of commitment here ? are you basically trying to stretch capital or how exactly did the logic go ?
mod6: Yeah, had discussions around it -- The first sentence in paragraph three kinda covers most of it.
mod6: I'd note that we were a bit reluctant to do this to begin with -- hence the late entrance to the venture. I think we were hoping that others would step and run it, but alas, no one did.
mircea_popescu: so the logic mostly went, "whole shit's on fire, gotta do thing x, thing x takes dough, the only available dough is in this piggy, break it" ?
ben_vulpes: well, i don't quite know what you mean by "stretch capital". republic gotta have an ISP; and it should be able to turn a profit and pay the foundation back. if it fails to do that, it'll be disappointing and i'll probably resign for mismanagement. initially mod6 and i were considering taking the entire venture on through the foundation when asciilifeform offered to match.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes fix the comments then i'll explain what i mean by reference to it!
ben_vulpes: yaok, i saw a comment earlier. no idea how it got in there.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-18 05:10 trinque: so leaving alf aside, when two folks dive on this boondoggle of a business venture to right it, we're going to suspect their methods and forget their long reputations?
mircea_popescu: cuz we're of the tribe that believes that a good deal.
mircea_popescu: but they're questions, and no more, barren and not pregnant. "and where did you put the salt" is not "you stole the salt, didn't you".
phf: i seem to recall that the original request was for FGs, so i was surprised to see pogos in the box, but they then the point was already moot. (box got here on friday, i picked it up saturday afternoon)
a111: Logged on 2018-02-18 05:23 mod6: Things like, what the bills were, where they need to be sent, who would do what. This kind of thing.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-17 04:55 asciilifeform: it so happens that asciilifeform has purchased a 50% stake in bisp. and specifically with one condition: that mircea_popescu (named, concretely) will not be a back-seat driver there.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-18 18:26 ben_vulpes: i'd been drafting what turned into the charter from very nearly the very beginning; there's no arrangements or agreements that are not covered in the linked document.
mircea_popescu: last call on this matter : are the surprises done or is there more exoticism waiting to be sprung on innocents ?
mircea_popescu: phf alrighty, send them back an' send me the bill please.
phf: i believe dpb is in between houses so there will be some time before he has a reliable return address, but we've already agreed to as much
mircea_popescu: it does occur to me that indeed tmsr-isp would make a much better repository of "just in case" iron than danielpbarron who's trying to move. you wanna do anything with my large crate of pogos fellas ?
mircea_popescu: phf yeah, actually, i should prolly take the rest of them from him, rather than stuff back in. they're long overdue. mind holding on to the grosse for a little ?
mircea_popescu: sounds like plenty and i know from experience it won't be nearly enough. but ty.
mircea_popescu: anyway, to get back to the land of designs for a second : the original idea for tmsr isp was that it'd also function as a holder of valuable (ie, "no longer produced") iron. and it'd carry it on its books, giving it a whole other kind of value.
mod6: <+mircea_popescu> last call on this matter : are the surprises done or is there more exoticism waiting to be sprung on innocents ? << The only agreement not stated in the charter was indeed, stated in here, that alf doesn't want to be involved with mircea_popescu as backseat driver.
mircea_popescu: is there any interest in this line with current management ? get a storage unit somewhere in uruguay, pile up all the pogos and other non-replenishables ?☟︎
mircea_popescu: (the business case for this would be something like "but look at symbolics gear".)
mod6: ben_vulpes, BingoBoingo, asciilifeform : Keep me honest here, am I missing / forgetting anything else that needs to be unearthed?
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784792 << i got overwhelmed with vdiff becoming all things to all people, and since 4 year designs are no longer in vogue, i'm going to change the strategy and unblock specific people waiting for me☝︎
a111: Logged on 2018-02-18 18:23 mircea_popescu: speaking of that, hey phf how's the new vdiff coming along ?
a111: Logged on 2018-02-02 21:26 mircea_popescu: 11 days should be enough for alf to bake the boxes i expect. danielpbarron i think he's better suited as they're right next to each other ; but pending discussion with bb can you fedex some pogos ?
phf: by wednesday after that, i'll add keccak to it, and by yet next wednesday a c patcher that can eat a proper vpatch
phf: mircea_popescu: well, i know that hanbot is waiting for a vdiffer that can actually produce a genesis from what she has, current one fails because of the whole -- regexing
mircea_popescu: so that you know, ben_vulpes can just press a v tree when he needs to stand one up. and so on.
mircea_popescu: and since there can never be a better time than the present time : following up on asciilifeform's expert advice, i bought a crate of pogos um... about three years ago, jan/feb 2015, ie when the bitcoin was ~400. they're just as rare now as they were then, and they could have been bought today for the ~same i paid for them then. meaning i lost 95 bitcents to the bitcoin on this deal, for howevermany bitcoins i cared to sink i
mircea_popescu: nto it. let the experience sink in, BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER PERSONALITY THAN HISTORY AND NO OTHER GUIDE THAN EXPERIENCE.
mircea_popescu dug it up ye ancient manifest. there's 112 A3 and 10 A1s, of which iirc jurov got a dozen back then, so i assume there's 76 and 10 left ; and 24 a3s with phf. ie a coupla grand in today's fiats.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-18 17:45 ben_vulpes: (not to derail, but i've moved the Pizarro provisional charter to http://pizarroisp.net/?p=3 , comments actively sought from eg diana_coman hanbot mircea_popescu lobbes )
mircea_popescu: in other news : as work on eucrypt is winding down -- the whole item is just about complete, needs serpent and we've decided to add an oaep-rsa wrapper (mostly as a pretext to do some ada-c interop testing), so roughly speaking by end of month it should actually be done -- we're moving on to shaping up the eulora client-server comms model. this will mostly be a design discussion, will take place in #eulora, prolly take up som
mircea_popescu: e portion of the month of march. those with domain knowledge are very much invited to participate.
mircea_popescu: also, building further the (summary) testing infrastructure currently provided is imo a legitimate way to patch upon the tree once complete ; and such work will prolly get sealed.
BingoBoingo: <mod6> ben_vulpes, BingoBoingo, asciilifeform : Keep me honest here, am I missing / forgetting anything else that needs to be unearthed? << BingoBoingo sent a tarball of fiat side paperwork, datacenter and BingoBoingo's South America allowance paid through march. Emotional back and forth on BingoBoingo's part of the sort where "Uruguayos can all fuck themselves" to "This place isn't so bad, but all the Uruguayos can go fuck themselves".
BingoBoingo: BingoBoingo's insistence on submitting to active management, particularly from ben_vulpes in light of his experience..
mircea_popescu: lol so why not blog it, i enjoy telling that sorta thing.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I'm getting dental work done tomorrow. I would like to blog the experience of turning 32 in Montevideo with Pictures, but I guess that can be a separate blog.
a111: Logged on 2018-02-18 05:57 trinque: probably plenty of ways to improve their process from here, yet the thing was dead in the water, republic declared dead without hosting, and some folks came together against that.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron yes, the idea back then was to send 24 fgs so as to supply 2each for the at the time dozen boxes i was trying to ship over. the latter part fell through, but as i thought the former part was still executed, and in phf's hands, i was trying to unwind it.
mircea_popescu: as there's nothing there to unwind, there's no moar problem though.