mircea_popescu: is anyone qntraing the guccifer thing ? speak now else i'm gonna
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> is anyone qntraing the guccifer thing ? speak now else i'm gonna << I'm going to sleep. If you qntra it I'll publish upon waking
mircea_popescu: anyway. time to shut down hillary clinton's political aspirations.
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Adding some links to extant qntra
BingoBoingo: Perhaps MP is saving the mirror and gloating for a Trilema post?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: I think that's a new record for time to qntra post being linked by another qntra post.
mircea_popescu: oops. i mean... wget -mp is the correct format! who knew :p
mircea_popescu: they're on a different domain, as per wordpress idiocy. and wget is apparently written by imbeciles.
☟︎ gribble: Error: That is an invalid IRC nick. Please check your input.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo we prolly should have a rule as to the maximum wordcount for an a href anchor.
shinohai: Simply exclude href wordcount?
mircea_popescu: i just mean, blue underlined text should be maybe 2-3-4 words not 20+
shinohai: i just mean to me it makes no sense to include href as wordcount
shinohai: tis how linkfarms are created!
mod6: thestringpuller: so, one thing i can tell for sure from your dpaste is that you're not running the latest trb tree.
mod6: not sure what else might be the problem there though.
shinohai: it seems to be working for me, was gonna try an arch install tomorrow
mod6: mine is happily running along past that block. mine is fully caught up.
mod6: do you have the cutblock code in your build?
mod6: that'll tell me what is in your patches dir, but not necessarily what you actually built. you haven't said yet what you built or how.
mod6: since your version shows 50400, it makes me inclined to think that you have some downlevel version since it should say 99999 if you have the latest.
mod6: any particular reason?
mod6: i would try building with the latest and see.
mod6: follow the steps in that log link.
mod6: if you use the script referenced above, it'll verbosely print out the patches being applied. which you can log into a file.
mod6: not sure. was this the same blockchain that you've been using with this same build? that error you recieved makes me think something got munged.
gribble: Error: "laser" is not a valid command.
gribble: ┌━ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ ┄ *pew!* *pew!* *pew!*
mircea_popescu: so, sadly but apparently unavoidable : who wants to re-do btcalpha wot explorer ?
phf: is there public deedbot dump somewhere?
phf: there used to be that sql dump, and then i think trinque started giving out sql logins to his wot postgresql server, is how wot data access progressed?
phf: asciilifeform: you don't hang out there anymore?
phf: bunch of people went a plague o' both your houses
phf: i stopped following the other side, because it was a daily dose of "if you want to suck mp cock you know where to find it"
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform well, guy has a job, a wife and a child. who knows what trouble besets the man.
phf: which i always thought is a pretty poor rhetoric tactic ever since i encountered it in like 6th grade
mircea_popescu: phf it's very hard to differentiate oneself when oneself has nothing to offer. forced mistake, what else to do other than.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform "but for the grace of god there goes i" or how did that quote go.
a111: Logged on 2016-06-16 02:17 thestringpuller: i built with stator
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 731.98, vol: 11178.94029119 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 700.15, vol: 10421.63378 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 734.02, vol: 84201.08057663 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 675.0, vol: 3.6406797 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 736.8669, vol: 61319.81620000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 730.1, vol: 3164.44414108 | Volume-weighted last average: 732.764292434
thestringpuller: i preserved the chain, and the bitcoind that built it. so what i'll do is get another disk, try to start from scratch with that build, and see if it wedges at the same place.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: is there a 'stable' algorithm / spec for deriving phuctor's hash / permalink? you'd mentioned before that it "includes the entire key - names, emails, ~all~ subkeys."
Framedragger: for example say i have some public key available. is there a way for me to derive phuctor's permalink for that key (acknowledging that the permalink may not be active yet, i.e. phuctor does not even know of the pubkey etc) ?
Framedragger: the latter would be quite useful - i may spin up some simple analysis thingie which shows info for those ssh keys, and it'd be nice to be able to link to corresponding phuctor entries
Framedragger: asciilifeform: kk, thanks, a script (or some description) would be useful!
Framedragger: not a big deal at all tho of course, useful for laters and for future exploitations and analysis infrastructure though
mircea_popescu: it is kind of a big deal. asciilifeform there must be a standard. this "submit key" thing doesn't work if for instance he's trying to dump 2mn static html pages into a website.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger there's also nothing wrong with trying to package it for b2b and beat in the marketplace those derps mentioned in the log days ago. i don't personally think there's a market there, but maybe i'm missing a crease. teh republic'd support you in any case.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah not the worst idea, i too think there may be not much of a market there though, but who knows.. good to know, if i ever come to consider b2b plans more seriously
mircea_popescu: generally, the fiat of the fiat state must be leached away from its crippled hands. very generally. what way one goes to accomplish this... well, that's why the one is one.
Framedragger: i guess right now i'm more curious to see general statistics / trends, e.g. distribution of ssh server versions per given geo region / AS etc., not that it may be too useful, but just genuinely curious
mircea_popescu: yeah, if you get imagemagik installed (lol!) there's a bunch of interesting visual stuff. quick way to jumpstart a blog, socialmedia exists ~out of this.
mircea_popescu: and a blog is a valuable and important asset for the adult man.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform an idea here would be to make a soft commitment to publish all cannonical code in lisp implementations.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: ah wait lol: i'd be parsing ssh rsa keys, not pgp keys - different format - though also base64 etc. i'll check!
mircea_popescu: (you can write two pages of cannonical implementation in lisp even if your actual implementation that you use is in py/c/whatever. make it a sort of official lingua franca of coding, is my idea.)
shinohai: so10K causes the BitGold pyramid to collapse under weight.
mircea_popescu: guy has a solid point. there's nothing new in this world except for hte history you didn't know etc.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a look, global warming idiot. /me moves on.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: gotcha. i have thing which converts ssh pubkey format to e,N,IP. i'll probably have a thing which generates rfc4880 (inserting ip address as comment field, say) from e,N,IP. thanks!
mircea_popescu: no wonder he's being promoted. by now, the moment i see lamestream going "X is a Y" the ~only thing i think about is that if Y = bitcoin, they'd be saying x=gavin.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform because you people have ~no taste and read shit spread on paper.
mircea_popescu: psa : genre fiction is not fiction, it's those merchandise tags and labels that ran long for the space.
mircea_popescu: fucking copywriters a) aren't writers and b) aren't people.
mircea_popescu: you want to buy a "genre fiction" novel, buy fifty cans of campbell soup and read the labels in succession. same shit.
mircea_popescu: plus you get some delicious canned soup out of the deal.
Framedragger still hasn't read schild's ladder. prolly need accompanying graph theory textbook
mircea_popescu: " All hackers aspire to an upgrade to spook." <<< ahahaha. "all barbarian lords aspire to colonus status". fucking bs. foederati had superior legal status to "colonus servusque". much like black dudes in the us have superior status to white office drones.
mircea_popescu: check out the inept agitprop bullshit. NOBODY wants to be "a spook", and for most people, including cashiers and waitresses, this move isn't an upgrade.
mircea_popescu: the roman "citizen" is the basis of the european slave class.
mircea_popescu: the barbarian is the basis of the european minor nobility.
mircea_popescu: as late empire turned to medieval times, colonus -> peasantry and foederatus -> yeomanry.
mircea_popescu: (with any luck, slave's kid could become knave, ie, 4th rank in the army, below yeoman, squire and knights in that order.)
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's basically saying "can't get a proper meal assembled without getting a bacteria in there. if it's clean it's an industrial product nobody wants to eat, if it's made properly, well!". this is true, but also irrelevant, the bacteria are everywhere but they aren't specifically dedicated to a cause through being bacteria. they're not typhus specifically.
mircea_popescu: now, man beset with lots of typhus may end up thinking so, "they're all the same", etc. but this is not exactly thinking in the proper sense, more like emotional lashing out.
Framedragger: asciilifeform: do you think it's a sensible idea to try and convert ssh public keys into rfc4880, and then submit them to phuctor (possibly in bulk)? or is that something i should leave to you?
mircea_popescu: phuctor gotta move to tmsr format not teh other way round. give the guy a moment,
Framedragger: yeh i'll be patient and will meanwhile muck around with what i've collected
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so write it a convertor. it's strategically stupid to make "a new gadget".
mircea_popescu: it is the height of ridiculous for you to tell me that "my program is so fucking stupid if it has to handle two items it can only pick one and pretend the other doesn't exist". you understand this ?
mircea_popescu: if you store as a csv, add more fields. if you store in any other format, a mechanical equivalent for "add more fields" exists. what is the problem ?
mircea_popescu: there ARE NOT two classes of object. rsa is the class of object.
mircea_popescu: different packagings of THIS SAME OBJECT are not to be entertained. we control ther fucking horizontal, not "gpg" or "opensshit".
mircea_popescu: i am not importing "tinyscheme" or "rfc" or anything else.
mircea_popescu: i do not have use for as much as a rotten end of a thread from usg. you follow this concept ?
mircea_popescu: illustrate them by storing rsa in the rsa format and adding the illustration on the side
mircea_popescu: not by centering on the non-rsa formats and adding tms on the side.
mircea_popescu: there is exactly ONE rsa format, for all time, past as well as future, and it goes like this : N, e, comment.
mircea_popescu: well, work on your own time. but work the way we're going not orthogonally.
mircea_popescu: (but in generally, no, it's as fucking stupid to have the sig cert in the sig as it's stupid to have the bitcoin transactions in the bitcoin wallet.
mircea_popescu: make wallet.dat and pending_transactions.dat. so if i want to flush pending txn i just delete that.
mircea_popescu: the notion of joining at the hip a permanent store and a cache is so idiotic as to make me certain the guy had no sort of formal education
mircea_popescu: i don't mean, in cs. i mean, at all. fucking baker's notions of the world.
mircea_popescu: the most basic, elementary, fundamental, first fucking function of any cache implementation is flush ffs.
mircea_popescu: who ever thought of this omfg it gives me hives on the brain just thinking about it.
mircea_popescu: sigh. anyway. "selfsigs" are not particularly well thought out, not to the degree but in the same manner.
mircea_popescu: there's 10x to 100x more ssh-rsa than gpg-rsa. it's a moot point.
phf: this "later" functionality is kind of useless on a bounced connection
mircea_popescu: in general the way it's supposed to work is that it pms you ONCE IT SEES YOU TALK
phf: it's hosted on digitalocean fwiw, maybe i should try moving it to our friend's cockli server, see how well romanian diesel modems work
mircea_popescu: worth a shot. in any case protectionism should be a concern, much rather support people with than items without a wot.
mircea_popescu: course, ending up with half the shit suspended because one guy's diesel modem croaked is also not such a good state of affairs.
mircea_popescu: but, well backuped services don't so much care about this.
phf: i've almost rewritten the irc bot. i'm not going to festival for couple of weeks, so it's going to get done
mircea_popescu: sort of passive crc. not clear that a) if you want it you shouldn't have it purpose built and b) if it's "just there" it should be necessarily preserved.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, as far as formats go - it seems data integrity procedures should be separated from data.
mircea_popescu: seems on the contrary, an epic point of decentralization
mircea_popescu: no. data is data, formats are standard. data storage is your problem. encrypt it as you will. no standard encryption. backup it as you will. no standard backup.
mircea_popescu: it's one thing to have standardized mains. it's another to have standardized items that plug into them. no thx.
mircea_popescu: anyway, "standard checksum" appears to be emerging as sha.
mircea_popescu: this seems ~the only true use of a hash function, "give me some bits to compare with his bits make sure the file made it"
mircea_popescu: otherwise what, send everything in triplicate, like it's soviet union time ?
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform some dirt is not actually dirt in the usual sense, but part of the fabric of reality.
mircea_popescu: sometimes i suspect if you were my hammam master you'd steel mesh the freckles off the girls. possibly most of the smaller clits nad nipples too.
Framedragger: > mircea_popescu: [15:40:33] well, going by Framedragger 's 20mn figure. aha.
Framedragger: yeah i'm not certain how representative that figure is of whatever, honestly. with all metaphor removed, it literally is "the number of ipv4 hosts which respond to a TCP SYN to port 22 with TCP ACK [packet with ACK flag set]". i'm fairly confident that i haven't missed many hosts of this kind, but too should be replicated and tested.
Framedragger: btw i'd choose self-sigs over "trust sks keyservers not to include fake subkeys" any time of the year. obvs the point is to disassemble this false dichotomy. but short-term, self-sigs are not useless at all.
Framedragger: 8ball contains exclusively moduli only, right? cool.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger your concept of "fake subkey" is broken. what makes a subkey fake ?
mircea_popescu: "i don't personally know her, she's therefore not a woman but meat".
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it's also not partucularly true, but it is what they would like, so.
mircea_popescu: "i took mercury and it brought the syphilis to a halt". mmmkay.
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: whether signature by $key to which the key in question is a sub of is valid?
Framedragger: why does it have to be all abstract and difficult
mircea_popescu: except in the case as seen of hpa's key, where they just attached a valid sig to an invalid key.
☟︎ mircea_popescu: the fact remains : unless i have your key from you, it's fake. no amount of holy water sprkinling on the key in question can alleviate this.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you recall, they pasted the sig packet off the actual key to a random concoction, verbatim
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo " since it's sale to Airbnb" << its. << ty fxd
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> less money, shittier work. << Even if more money can't spend because blows cover, then die
gribble: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 747.86, vol: 14522.51117654 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 714.997, vol: 12883.63577 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 748.22, vol: 102681.82802122 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 675.0, vol: 4.81007134 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 749.918331, vol: 71268.07480000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 748.298, vol: 4917.98036024 | Volume-weighted last average: 746.706548862
shinohai: mebbe the 3rd time of seen that with a different woman charged with said crime.
mircea_popescu: and of course "the public" = the rest of the tatanyshas are worried she may get executed for this.
mircea_popescu: i have nfi how someone who waits for you to go to sleep, pours gasoline and lights up could possibly escape the hanging. it is about as cowardly premeditated as it gets, no need to encourage this sort of behaviour.
trinque: phf: I'll get you postgresql user/pass this evening
phf: in the old tradition of samson and delilah
mircea_popescu: it's outrageous. married woman that hurts sleeping husband should be given the option of burning at the state / boiling in oil.
mircea_popescu: either choice has a bunch of onlookers mocking her for choosing wrong.
mircea_popescu: incidentally this is an islamic mainstay afaik. punctually, fine example of why "civilised" us might well welcome the rule of the "barbarians". legal improvements.
mircea_popescu: but i've yet to meet muslim married woman that'd even conceive such outrage.
trinque: I do not recall a worse keynote ever given by "apple"
trinque: somebody decided they needed to be more inclusive with their presenters, and they included a bunch of duds
phf: i liked the black chick that was doing the whole blackface shtick
phf: "execu-super-mommy" i believe is that term she used, right before trying to get boomer audience to sing along to the sugarhill gang
phf: followed by half hour of two grownups earnestly demoing imessages features presumably targeted at 12 year old girls
a111: Logged on 2016-06-16 17:04 mircea_popescu: except in the case as seen of hpa's key, where they just attached a valid sig to an invalid key.
Framedragger: (and also the tree of comments below, which are not properly visually formatted, in terms of identation)
mircea_popescu: trinque the apple you're thinking of got pancreatic cancer, they got a replacement from central casting.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform buncha recovering 2000s fanbois, whadda ya want. anyone's a teenager sometime.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger so some clients handle it correctly. this isn't much of an argument that it belongs there.
☟︎ ben_vulpes: the pathetic "omg these cool features!" from current fanboys is endlessly entertaining.
phf: you guys, i really enjoyed the main guy, because he was like a steve jobs zombie, down to a gaunt cancer look. he existed in this uncanny valley with all the manerisms and presentation ticks.
mircea_popescu: next year they can give him a kardashian ass and he could launch a music album.
phf: i'm just so rarely exposed to agitprop that this was a fascinating experience. it's like watching men in suits get on all fours and earnestly eat shit from the floor.
phf: no need to spread! boom, it's that easy!
trinque sends asciilifeform a grumpy emoji
trinque just picked up a g5 imac as a non-intel curio
a111: Logged on 2016-06-16 21:23 mircea_popescu: Framedragger so some clients handle it correctly. this isn't much of an argument that it belongs there.
Framedragger: i.e., the "fake subkey" case *can* be handled correctly.
Framedragger: hence self-sigs do provide value here; this is not to say that the notion of "subkey" shouldn't be razed from the earth, eventually.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger as exemplified by the woman in the picture. she's "not fake". in what sense ? she could call you and swear for herself ? so ?
mircea_popescu: your notion of fake is broken. you think fake is a property of objects. fake is a property of relations.
Framedragger: i agree that it's a property of relations. a signature establishes a relation
Framedragger: maybe bad wording: not "self-signature" in this case, but rather one (parent) key signing another (child) key.
mircea_popescu: a self-signature establishes nothing. if YOU signed the key then ~you~ would know it's not fake in the specific sense that it's the same one you signed.
Framedragger: let's particularize: hpa's parent key was embedded in the pgp wot (whether the latter is worth anything is a *separate* point) which people trusted. then, hpa's child key appears, and it's not properly signed by hpa's parent key, the latter being trusted prior. maybe the sig is not there, maybe the sig is invalid, whatever. child key gets rejected. this scheme in itself is not circular, and it *worked*.
mircea_popescu: i don't know hpa. any item purporting to be hpa's key is fake, and this can not be fixed by hpa or anyone on his behalf through technological means of any sort.
☟︎ Framedragger: whether it truly worked well, whether some gpg clients are shit, whether keyservers should preemptively dismiss such keys - all worthy points of discussion, but separate.
mircea_popescu: if another knows hpa, and signs his key, then that one knows the key he signed to be not fake, but the key he signed. this, again, has little to do with hpa per se.
Framedragger: i agree. but what if there was some trust path from you to hpa's parent key; and there were no paths at all to the diddled child key. surely that's something, even if not enough for you to mark hpa's key (any key) as "trusted"
mircea_popescu: anyway. the only way in which the scheme you discuss worked was to prevent effectual use of symmetric key crypto, and it's altogether doubtful people needed help for that.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger i don't see much merit in the whole scheme. gpg does something stupid and then maybe salvages some edge of it. mmkay.
mircea_popescu: "subkeys" are ~equivalent to "domain names" and various attempts to weaken bitcoin that were quashed historically. "wouldn't you like some wool over your eyes ???"
Framedragger: right, sure. but then you'd agree that all phuctorings (save for one, apparently) are interesting insofar as one is interested in how broken this scheme is?
mircea_popescu: i don't think it can ever be said "x phenomena shows only y abstraction".
mircea_popescu: i dunno why it's interesting and what it shows exhaustively.
Framedragger: maybe i'm jumping too much. apologies - sleepy; and i get the point.
mircea_popescu: but anyway, sure, there's a difference between "random subkey" and "subkey signed by main key".
mircea_popescu: nevertheless, it seems to my eyes to be of the kind of "there's a difference between burnned out barn with door open and burned out barn with door closed".
Framedragger: i suppose that's what i wanted to state originally, yeah. i know it's not a strong case; but it's not utter bullshit, either.
mircea_popescu: more importantly : i don't want to outsource the management of my trust chains. if i trust you, i trust one key, not all keys in all derivations you may one day come up with.
☟︎ Framedragger: depends on matter of scale. if you zoom out and look at gpg as a whole then you just want to burn everything to the ground, sure. and if you zoom out further you want to rewrite more and more things. but sometimes it is worthwhile to consider relative differences of worth, too, so to speak.
mircea_popescu: if gpg was intended as a sort of otr, "user creates subkeys forever", it's shockingly poorly implemented.
mircea_popescu: if it's intended to work as what it works, then really there's no use or need for that nonsense.
mircea_popescu: so in a sense i made a design decision post-implementation, because these cojoined twins had to be cut somehow. this is improper, sure, but unavoidable.
Framedragger: one practical consideration re you signing my subkeys: what if you really trusted my main key but then i later decided to move that key to offline storage for security, and derive a subkey - one may argue that gpg provides just this kind of means of streamlining the process - i sign my new subkey or whatever, and there's that, no need for you to meet me in person again. otherwise doesn't scale at all, if 1000 people wanted to trust my su
hanbot: say Valfor, who're you?
Framedragger: otherwise doesn't scale at all, if 1000 people wanted to trust my subkey. i guess *you* could argue that fuck scale and fuck "lots of people", etc.
Framedragger: ^ i'll re-think and converse better next time, bed time
Framedragger: jurov: i heard you have a converter from tmsr format (e,N,comment) to openpgp, if that's true can you link to it perchance please? would save time / redundancy :)
Framedragger: jurov: but probably nvm actually 'cause your tool i expect does not generate things like self-sigs out of nowhere, etc. (need by current instance of phuctor). would still like to take a look if it's around tho!
gernika: Whales are spouting off the coast today. Beautiful thing.
mircea_popescu: Framedragger why should it scale ? dunbar number is a thing. there's no need for you to be trusted, or even known, by more than a few dozen people.
mircea_popescu: and why should the process be streamlined ? the decision to "move your key to storage" has some costs, for them. why should you be insulated from this ? you wanna do X, pay up.
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
deedbot: L1: 0, L2: 0 by 0 connections.
Valfor: I presume I was given it?
Valfor: not really something I can take for myself :P
Framedragger: mircea_popescu: yeah k, i mean, i may disagree re. dunbar's number being directly applicable here, maybe i'm some l33t package maintainer, but fair enough, won't argue further here
mircea_popescu: trinque i think he got voice a whole back and deedbot forgot about it.
Framedragger: valfor is some unclaimed garbage collected side effect
mircea_popescu: May 02 18:10:34 <deedbot> Valfor voiced for 30 minutes.
Valfor: you're ripping me to shreds
trinque: weird. deedbot tracks nick changes at least
Valfor: If you all want a collective devoice
mircea_popescu: Valfor more like auditing the mechanism than anything.
trinque: just discussing teh bot mr feelings!
Valfor: Well let me know if you do - don't want to be inadvertently breaking the rules :)