adlai: so holding bitcoin isn't depriving anybody else of anything, except for bitcoin
adlai: for great lulz, read up on the venus project. this is what some people counter at me when they hear my excitement about bitcoin
adlai: "money is bad, we need a resource-based economy" actually, that would be terrible. resources need metadata, enter money.
decimation: eh, I guess I don't get the immediate moral assignments of money
kakobrekla: the link i passed here earlier also touches this.
adlai: or fungible gratitude
adlai: kakobrekla: the audio thingy?
decimation: adlai: there's some degree of that, but money also acts as an asset. In moldbug's terms, it's the 'bubble that never pops'
adlai: i like to put it more bluntly, money is "the neverending ponzi game"
decimation: something must be money, and that something is worth more than 'it ought to be'
decimation: moldbug's theory is that this is derived from game theory, in the sense that every actor wants to pick the best savings medium, which is the thing that everyone else is planning to save in
adlai: assuming that you're saving something in the hope of trading it for useful stuff eventually
adlai: if you know what's useful, and you know how to keep it fresh, you could just save that.
decimation: adlai: yes. that constraint rules out many savings media obviously
decimation: moldbug's analogy if I recall is a fisherman saving fish
decimation: kakobrekla: I've read that before, not sure if it is legitimate
decimation: although it does seem to be reasonable
adlai: kakobrekla: what is this thing? (the audio)
adlai: damnit he's gonna beat me to the patent office
decimation: his point about hygiene items is a good one. Having a large store of ethanol seems like a good idea - can be used as a disinfectant, can be drank, can be used to de-grease engines :)
adlai imagines that the situation in gaza [city] is not too far off, modulus one large well-established gang (hamas)
decimation: adlai: hamas seems to blur the lines between 'gang' and 'government'
adlai: there's an anarchist joke in there somewhere but i'll leave it to the reader to fill in
adlai: and yes, hamas is probably a better government than the governments of, say, haiti or somalia
adlai: although "hamas" refers to both a government and a loosely-knit military conglomerate, just like "usg" or "nato"
ben_vulpes: decimation: simple things are beautifully powerful.
adlai: (rockets are never fired by _hamas_ itself, and in fact firings are often denounced, even by the military arm; yet somehow the splinter groups keep operating despite the tight grip hamas has on the strip...)
adlai: then again, take everything i say with a dab of humus. i'm actually a lot less updated on local events than most people here, because it's mostly just fucking depressing.
decimation: I imagine most folks who live in/near israel have a pretty grim fatalism
adlai: kakobrekla: 28:45 !!!!!!
adlai: middle east demographics are quite the shitshow. malthus's ghost is laughing his ass off by now.
decimation: kakobrekla: if your bosnia link is true, it strikes me that the most important thing to have in a 'shtf' situation is alot of people on 'your side': family, friends, etc
decimation: adlai: what I find amusing is all the 'turd world' workers that the arabs import to do their dirty work
adlai: you mean in the emirates?
kakobrekla: decimation bullets & family (to use the bullets)
adlai: in the parts of the middle east that i feel qualified to complain about, the arabs aren't sitting on enough oil to import workers; although israel is making the most from massive refugee flows from darfur, eritrea, etc
adlai: as in, every.single.eatery has an "eggplant" doing the dishes
adlai: and however little they get paid, i'm pretty sure none of it is declared
decimation: I thought israel is harsh on illegal immigrants
decimation: adlai: I guess emirates, saudi arabia, etc
adlai: israel the government, yes. but israel the restauranteur loves them.
decimation: mexicans actually do work pretty hard, I don't mind them so much
decimation: in my opinion the main issue is the welfare that will be extended to their lazy 2nd/3rd generation kids
adlai: eh, those kids are raised by hardworking parents. i'd be more worried about the laziness of kids raised by parents on welfare today.
decimation: of course, the welfare state also requires a source of infinte fiat
decimation: it's lulzy that anyone still owns that wwi debt
adlai wonders how many decades/centuries it'll take for speciation to start between "Homo operandus" and "Homo ignavus"
adlai: Huxley's "reservations" are actually a fairly moral solution for a welfare-free technocracy: exile people who aren't contributing to the society, but don't shit in their reservoirs either.
ben_vulpes: i've always envisioned NYC style "projects", but with minimal food/water/electricity/internet piped in to keep the denizens complacent.
adlai: hm this is actually a terrible essay, nvm.
adlai: so, like a shit zoo?
adlai: well, zoogoers don't usually want to live in the cages...
adlai: something between safari/zoo/reservation
decimation: something like 'minimal welfare' is a bare hut with beans to eat
decimation: but at the same time, don't tie the hands of folks who can 'make it out' of the reservation
adlai: fwiw, assuming that the fiat parasite sticks around in some form or other, i'd rather have it operate a single UBI program than dozens of badly-coordinated welfare axes
decimation: probably won't change unless something forces the government's hand
decimation: well, in the case of the us, a sudden collapse in usd buying power
decimation: which will only happen if overseas actors decide to sell usd simultaneously
adlai: would that force towards more effective welfare programs, or just more of the same shit?
decimation: eh, it would cause a collapse of some kind, which would change some stuff, some of which might be these programs
decimation: of course, the urge to 'print their way out' might grow even larger
assbot: Logged on 02-11-2014 21:48:39; asciilifeform: claim is not a fact << when talking about a scam, the claim is the fact (that is, the fact of the scam being set up as such or other)
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24100 @ 0.00063102 = 15.2076 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: Logged on 22-12-2014 15:17:18; mircea_popescu: all you weirdos fucking with your sleep i swear...
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1000 @ 0.00118 = 1.18 BTC [-]
adlai: it's probably some gnarly shit in fortran
Overand: 'allo. Registered my nick with my key. Woo
gribble: Nick 'Overand', with hostmask 'Overand!~overand@unaffiliated/overand', is identified as user 'Overand', with GPG key id 80053296F8159175, key fingerprint ADB3CD2C1AA14FA29B53677980053296F8159175, and bitcoin address None
gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of 2 for user Overand has been recorded.
Overand: Heh. If this is what you consider the threshold I must to clear to "matter," and I didn't "matter" before, then my worldview continues to be wildly different from yours.
xanthyos: ;;rate Overand 2 known since hebrew school temple beth shalom as far back as 9600 baud modems were in vogue
gribble: Rating entry successful. Your rating of 2 for user Overand has been recorded.
Overand: I'm someone who knews (or knew) xanthyos and danielpbarron in meatspace.
danielpbarron: i met xanthyos through Overand; he's sorta hackerish or something
Overand: Anyway, yeah. I'm a tech nerd, abstract musician, primitive skills student, general queerdo.
Overand: Yeah, I wonder if there's a timestamp on when it wa submitted to the keyserver
Overand: That's funny, I would have guessed earlier than that, but I suspect the keyserver doesn't lie.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45000 @ 0.00065918 = 29.6631 BTC [+] {2}
Overand: kakobrekla: Yeah. You know, fire with sticks, shelter in the woods, that sort of thing.
Overand: The stuff I'd have known by the time I was 4 or 5 years old if I'd been born right here ~600 years ago
Overand: There are a number of schools for that, but I meant it in the general sense.
xanthyos: oh Overand you'll fit in here just fine
Overand: When I'm giving an overview, I like to couple that with the tech stuff.
Overand: You know, the whole "running fiber optic cable between mud huts after [insert emergency/collapse/rapture/disease/singularity]" thing.
kakobrekla: for that you need shortwave, not optics.
Overand is US General licensed as well.
Overand: Shortwave's fine, but it's subject to a ton of ionospheric stuff.
Overand: It certainly not 'reliable,' and it's not a great way to get anything of any reasonable bandwidth anywhere
Overand: I'd stick to VHF/UHF/etc if you're talking about medium-throw distance
xanthyos: Overand: did you get your general before or after they dropped the 18 wpm morse code requirement
Overand: And yet I'm pretty sure I've done more on the air than you have.
Overand: That's a great callsign, though.
xanthyos: i paid the 8 dollars to not use it for another decade.
xanthyos: now i'm getting spammed from arrl
Overand: They're a nonprofit with decent people there, if you want them to stop, just drop them an e-mail.
xanthyos: i'd rather let them waste their money
decimation: Overand: shortwave is plenty reliable, depending on your expectations
Overand: It's just not a great candidate for replacing the entire internet
Overand: nor for ~7 billion people to communicate with each other.
Overand: decimation: Also, I'm a ham radio operator, I've had plenty of conversations via shortwave
Overand: usually 20 meters and up, a little 40,
Overand: i don't think i've worked 80 down
Overand: erm... maybe some SSB on 80, but that was same-continent
Overand: Anyway, point being I'm not a total idiot when it comes to this.
Overand: Though likely not nearly as experienced as you
decimation: Overand: as for 'replacing the internet', I suppose it depends on what those 7 billion people have to say
decimation: at any rate, it's been discussed as a possible means to distribute the bitcoin blockchain and/or transactions
Overand: decimation: So I've heard.
Overand: What's the current data rate like?
decimation: I think it would be possible to fit the blockchain into a 2400 bps channel
decimation: there's only one block that clears every 10 minutes right?
decimation: the block contains a list of transactions, up to the max block size, plus the hash, plus some other stuff
Overand: per bitcoin.it wiki, transactions are about 500bytes, running at 7tps, so that';s ~3500 bytes/sec or (humorously) 28,000 bits per second
decimation: yeah, it depends how many transactions per block
Overand: DRM (Digital Radio Mondiale) varies between 4.5khz and 100khz of spectrum
decimation: most shortwave broadcasters limit their DRM to 14 kHz
decimation: but they could sustain the kind of bitrates required
Overand: it depends on the spectrum you're willing to use
Overand: satellites are a better candidate for this
Overand: but it's suboptimal. you ever tried to receive DRM reliably?
decimation: but you need a bigass transmitter on one end
Overand: and yeah. i've never gotten a DRM broadcast reliably here in the US, but, who knows
Overand: haven't tried since i improveed my antenna situation
Overand: that was with like, 40 feet of antenna up a tree
decimation: there used to be a transmitter in nova scotia that came in well
Overand: (a lot more antenna than your coke machine is likely to have)
decimation: there's one in brazil that is reliable too
decimation: at any rate, I'm not sure that shortwave is really suited for blockchain broadcast unless one had a really big transmitter (and more importantly - government-allocated bandwidth)
decimation: I think what shortwave would be better for would be a transaction network
decimation: I'm thinking more of a mesh network than a point-to-point
Overand: decimation: DRM's highest bitrate seems to be about 27 kilobits
Overand: though per wikipedia, they can shoehorn 700 kilobits worth of bandwidth into a 100khz channel
decimation: yeah and it would require many kilowatts to sustain a large coverage area. and since the ionosphere varies over the course of a day, one ideally would need multiple transmitters with multiple frequencies
decimation: 100 khz channel ain't gonna happen on HF
decimation: 16 kHz is probably the max that you will get allocated politically
Overand: so standard AM is what, 20khz or so
Overand: so that 27 kilobit data rate is probably - yeah - in that 12khz am
Overand: man, tempting to go ask on the FreeDV / Codec2 mailing list
decimation: one can have arbitrary many kilobits in a kilohertz as constrained by SNR given in Shannon's law
Overand: though they're mostly working with relatively tiny bandwidth digital modulation
Overand: Sticking a digital voice channel into 900hz - 1.6khz or so
Overand: Anyway, the current blockchain with error coding and such could probably reasonably fit into a 20k wide channel
Overand: that's not nothing, but it's not insane
Overand: but getting that across the *world* would t ake a lot of power
Overand: and that's at the current blockchain rate
Overand: What good is a one-way transfer?
kakobrekla: anyway now i see my week wasnt all that bad.
Overand: danielpbarron: in case you care, i registered an address too
danielpbarron: can't get rid of it and it's just another attack vector
Vexual: what do you mean about attack vector? losing control of the address?
danielpbarron: yes, someone could hijack your gribble account through either authentication method
Vexual: so twice as many ways in?
Vexual: yeah, i'm a glass half full kinda thing
Vexual: surely two gives you two ways to describe that you are that person
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16800 @ 0.0006613 = 11.1098 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7065 @ 0.0006613 = 4.6721 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12200 @ 0.0006613 = 8.0679 BTC [+]
ben_vulpes: so there's a really particularly good argument for tiny blocks.
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2250 @ 0.0011785 = 2.6516 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4400 @ 0.00065626 = 2.8875 BTC [-]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1129 @ 0.0011785 = 1.3305 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14650 @ 0.00064705 = 9.4793 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15800 @ 0.00066108 = 10.4451 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2559 @ 0.00117849 = 3.0158 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1000 @ 0.00118526 = 1.1853 BTC [+] {4}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2250 @ 0.00119287 = 2.684 BTC [+] {7}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24550 @ 0.00064134 = 15.7449 BTC [-] {3}
assbot: Terrifying: PDFs that displays totally differently on three different readers; different again on printing. PGP sign only text files! /hashtag/31c3?src=hash
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20507 @ 0.00063925 = 13.1091 BTC [-]
gribble: Current Blocks: 336486 | Current Difficulty: 3.945767130713873E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 336671 | Next Difficulty In: 185 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 day, 2 hours, 54 minutes, and 32 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 40492824074.3 | Estimated Percent Change: 2.62345
davout: BingoBoingo: i heard some webpages actually do that too
BingoBoingo: davout: Well almost all of how a webpage looks is dependent on how it is read.
davout: yeah, i'm implying that it shouldn't be *that* surprising for a PDF
davout: don't gpg-sign a webpage yo
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [HASH] 2572 @ 0.00077648 = 1.9971 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 980 @ 0.001185 = 1.1613 BTC [+]
assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3000 @ 0.00119 = 3.57 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5700 @ 0.00065017 = 3.706 BTC [+]
b00lcrap: even if i get ddosed i mean they couldnt possibly make my internet any worse
davout: b00lcrap: i can't believe it's still going on
b00lcrap: who is the mastermind behind this late 90s attack.
assbot: Logged on 19-12-2014 19:38:15; kakobrekla: btw ddos is gone (temporarily?)
davout: webchat should be usable again then
davout: kind of afraid to test
kakobrekla: [15:29:08] * NormDePloome (5ef2d9d1@gateway/web/freenode/ip.94.242.217.209) has joined
BingoBoingo: bitstein: Saw you enjoyed the Qntra Bitcoin Bowl recap.
BingoBoingo: I just figured someone had to go over the product Bitpay was sponsoring.
bitstein: Right? And from your recap, I'm glad that they were able to help bring attention to a celebrated American tradition with two teams that seem to really have a love of the game.
BingoBoingo: Yeah. My favorite part was the NC State trick plays.
BingoBoingo: The Reciever throwing a pass to the Quarterback?
assbot: President of Argentina adopts Jewish godson to 'stop him turning into a werewolf' - Americas - World - The Independent ... (
http://bit.ly/1Bfmi1D )
BingoBoingo: While Obala is busy inventing ISIS, Kirchner is doing great work by saving the world from the specter of shit eating Jewish werewolves
assbot: [MPEX] [S.BBET] 20000 @ 0.00015 = 3 BTC [-]
cazalla: i imagine litecoin bagholders won't be too happy about being back at #4 according to coinmarketcap ha
devthedev: cazalla: I'm quite surprised you didn't win the Changetip contest during the Bitcoinbowl
cazalla: devthedev, they likely awarded it to a friend, that's usually how those competitions go
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19600 @ 0.00064053 = 12.5544 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34050 @ 0.00064755 = 22.0491 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4550 @ 0.00064755 = 2.9464 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9400 @ 0.00065014 = 6.1113 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6550 @ 0.00062834 = 4.1156 BTC [-]