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asciilifeform: it does cost moar tho. even once i'm done with the asm version.

mircea_popescu: and why trhe fuck am i using "4 bit permutations"

mircea_popescu: dja see why i'd muchly prefer a native tmsr.rsa length symmetric cypher rather than this nonsense ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: serpent isn't defined as a stretchable thing - i.e. it isn't obvious what ought to be changed to produce a larger ( or smaller, for that matter ) block, and still to have it meaningfully similar to original

a111: Logged on 2017-11-22 21:45 asciilifeform: anyway for 512bit key, you still keep the 128bit block. but each time you have incoming 128b plaintext, you shamir it rngistically into 512bits, i.e. 4 128b parcels that must be xor'd to reconstitute the original. each of these get ciphered with one of 4 independently-generated 128b keys.

diana_coman: ha, back when I was blissfully only *playing* this game!!

a111: Logged on 2014-09-07 17:56 mircea_popescu: i wasn't aware this is public knowledge.

a111: Logged on 2016-02-06 16:55 mircea_popescu: derp #1 : "What is wrong with existing block ciphers like AES? AES has been in widespread use for over a decade and to the best of my knowledge, there is still no practical attack on it (unless someone has built a working quantum computer and not told anyone about it). Its totally free of patents and IP issues. Its been implemented in a huge variety of hardware and software (including the Intel CPU that I am using to m

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-22#1742164 << hey, next the "instruction function of soviet pioneer org in protecting the poor clueless adults from toxic facts and hate truth" will emerge. and then, probably, the NEP. and then, i guess, the http://trilema.com/2014/the-problem-of-enforcement/#footnote_0_55204 ☝︎

diana_coman: I think I need to read more on this, so I'll hit the books

diana_coman: yes, I had found that one; for some reason I thought you had in mind a different approach for expanding block + key size for serpent itself

asciilifeform: back to the shamir scheme : the only thing i can properly prove about it, is that it isn't weaker than straight single-key-with-no-splits

asciilifeform: ( i see it as a still-unsolved problem. )

asciilifeform: sorta how i ended up exploring the http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-24#1589881 item ☝︎

diana_coman: hm, I probably did not know how to search for it properly as I did look but still not very clear on it

asciilifeform: anyway for 512bit key, you still keep the 128bit block. but each time you have incoming 128b plaintext, you shamir it rngistically into 512bits, i.e. 4 128b parcels that must be xor'd to reconstitute the original. each of these get ciphered with one of 4 independently-generated 128b keys. ☟︎☟︎

diana_coman: I could have sworn I *did* upload it but apparently..I hadn't

a111: Logged on 2016-06-06 21:37 asciilifeform: i find it also very interesting that all aes-like ('boxes') cryptosystems are direct descendants of rotor machines. which were known to be pseudoscientific even when first built, as vernam existed

diana_coman: well, I was trying to keep my scope there relatively narrowly focused on serpent itself; it's not a very short post as it is anywya

diana_coman: updated; I'll read and link when I find it, as it should be linked I think

mod6: i just happened to stumble across it and also thought "this is out of date too..."

phf: actually i saw your follow up, but stopped reading at "where is it nao..?"

asciilifeform: ( am i the only one who actually uses phf's very spiffy pointy-hand arrows ? )

mircea_popescu: (the bug i mean.)

mircea_popescu: huge strategic mistake publicizing that item, but sadly i r not yet in the position of making ALL the calls.

asciilifeform: at the same time fixing , i strongly suspect, the bug that recently showed promise of making the whole thing removable

spyked: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/yVbXl/?raw=true <-- most of it is config.sub and config.guess. two lines at the end may fix shinohai's troubles. anyway, I'ma post the whole thing (w3m+gc+js+whatever else) once I manage to do a static build.

shinohai: spyked: I did patch config.sub because it is horrendously old and has no idea what system I was using.

spyked: hm. shinohai, I remember patching config.sub and config.guess at least. posting a patch in one minute.

shinohai: bah, weird errors trying to build njs .... this is better left to when I can look at a full cleanup.

spyked: I like w3m as well. the codebase is surprisingly easy to understand (took me a few hours yesterday to get a vague idea of how modules work together), though I have no idea why they need a gc. links is even more minimal, but I use w3m mainly because it runs in emacs.

shinohai: grrrr .... thanx for assistance spyked. I rather like w3m (because inline images) but truly needs a lot of cruft removed and things organised - mainly the sourceforge madness.

spyked: shinohai, I know why the patch fails, though not sure why it fails without it... did you also compile and install libnjs? e.g. on line 1840 in config.log, "cannot find -ljs". hm. I am guessing you should have it installed if w3m-0.4 worked for you.

shinohai: ( I think I used this version tbh https://github.com/tats/w3m ... I loath sourceforge lol)

shinohai: I know I have builit it plenty of times, I'm trying to remember if there was some patch for that, don't recall

spyked: (ftr, libgc is why I rebased the patch on w3m-0.5.3 in the first place; for some reason the "mktable" executable generated by w3m was segfaulting in the gc library, while I knew 0.5.3 compiled on my system before, with libgc from debian sources)

shinohai: Just an aside, I *also* tried this unpatched and get same error. One sec, posting config.log

spyked: shinohai, I remember getting this as well at some point. can you also paste config.log? the js library bits that I added to ./configure are very hack-ish (IMHO the thing shouldn't be dynamically linked anyway, so I just hacked through it to make it work)

shinohai: Hmmm .... I have the gc repo though, still fails.

spyked: ah crap. yes, I installed the gc lib from the debian repo. I don't know why they removed gc from the w3m tree

shinohai: though it is available, I'm puzzled. (Your patch did apply cleanly)

shinohai: Its ok spyked .... this is the one I tried, albeit in a Debian VM. ./configure keeps failing for me saying there is no gc

spyked: shinohai, sourceforge, unfortunately (w3m devs still host it there for some reason). exact link: https://downloads.sourceforge.net/w3m/w3m-0.5.3.tar.gz same for the njs library; one sec, I'll look it up

shinohai: Heya spyked, was looking at your patch last night .... where did you get your w3m source code from if I may ask?

RagnarDanneskjol: mircea_popescu I may have someone worth inviting to chan for interview in the coming days. Most of the folks I know over there are primarily oral translators, so having to look around a bit. Just got back yesterday - BJ is a real shithole but the people are adorable, lots of good duck. FYI - 'VPN AC' (Romanian) seems to be the only one working well/consistently behind the firewall (I've used many) and ☟︎

mircea_popescu: and in antique trilemas for the rotaku club (ie, great pieces i'm too lazy to translate), http://trilema.com/2012/pizdita-sau-antropologie-printre-taranii-de-la-oras/ aka mp knows more about "toxic manhood" an' "rape culture" than your local fabecook expert.

spyked: nono, I look at Lisp symblol *names* and I think "strings", i.e. sequences of characters.

spyked: mircea_popescu, I understood that. the point is, McCarthy's Lisp system still uses strings internally in some form.

spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-21#1741759 , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-22#1741862 <-- string not a primitive, but -- "string" datatype aside -- symbol names are (conceptually) strings, so they (the symbol names) require an internal representation etc. cons'ing characters upon reading was simplest approach I found to storing and structuring them. con: list cells introduce memory overhead; pros: avoids arrays and magic numbers like ☝︎☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-21 19:35 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-20#1741176 << i don't need to consider that, i grok metacircularity, i.e. there's no such thing as builtin symbols. bytecode or not is lateral to that point.

spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-21#1741755 <-- crap. sorry for the confusion! I was thinking about builtin functions, not symbols. need a meaningful way to point symbols to those things, and meaningful way revealed itself once I finally grasped your point. /me proceeds to rewrite symbols+builtin pieces. ☝︎

asciilifeform: can't comment, i never in entire life owned the actual camera for them

mircea_popescu: holy shit turns out i know a lot about field developing.

asciilifeform: lol! loox like i picked the winning horse...

mircea_popescu: i thought you had it exposed.

asciilifeform: i'ma try it with b&w iso film next, because with what else.

mircea_popescu: so i go into shop that has you know, coffee toaster and a buncha nuts etc, and go "camarron ?" and the woman looks at me befuddled, so i'm like "semillas de camarron!" and she's eyeing me like wtf then realises. "maranon ?"

mircea_popescu: i forget the rest.

mircea_popescu: ah if only i were young again!

mircea_popescu: "rent is 100 but i don't have to spend 150 to get language lessons, o noes, im 50 in the green here"

mircea_popescu: so i do feel an inclination to just drive them over.

mircea_popescu: people did that sort of thing, back then. and all the fuckbook tards who paint the dude (rightfully or not, i don't give a shit) as the summum malum never as much as put together a fucking lego box. ☟︎

asciilifeform: and while i'd hesitate to time travel to 'golden age' su, i'd almost happily move to shoemaker-era ro

asciilifeform: i suspected.

mircea_popescu: i tell the girls stories, you know, "to get a car in the 80s you had to deposit 80k lei in this so and so account, and then 8 to 18 months later they'd call you TO THE PLANT and you'd get, mostly, a car. of whatever color they had available and maybe with all the parts. there were no fucking showrooms or anything, people drove the car home 500 kms.

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-21#1741773 << i thought this was the idea. ☝︎

mircea_popescu: trinque> I just beat his face in << better strategy. "bitch, by the time i'm done with you, your mom's gonna be begging to bring me my hat in her snatch every weekend after nine."

BingoBoingo: <asciilifeform> lifetime vaccine against equalism. << AHA, I ad to get vaccinated later at college for that

trinque: I just beat his face in

trinque: I guess in the movie, kid goes and runs to friend to get the hat

trinque: I even got almost expelled for racis

asciilifeform: trinque: ahahahaha in that sense it's great. i'm pretty happy i went to one in usa

trinque: I mean, they wanted me to have a cultural experience outside my own, and... did.

trinque: and look, I turned out fine

trinque: heh, I was sent to a black elementary school under some kind of diversity program.

mircea_popescu: i like how indignant screen gets. this IS window 6!!!

asciilifeform: i.e. the ultimate crime under the inca.

asciilifeform: i bet mircea_popescu patches those!111

asciilifeform: this is more or less a given. what was the last heathen artifact that we found usable exactly as found? i can't recall even one

asciilifeform: i dun see what part of that is nonobvious

asciilifeform: i see 0 reason to have #. be bound when reading untrusted sexprs.

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-20#1740959 << i think i said that in logs before, but sexp is a poor data exchange format. read operation relies on current state of *readtable* and traditionally readtable is customized to specific operator needs. there's a default *readtable*, but it's too unconstrained to be used for deserialization of untrusted data, since it, for example, supports arbitrary code execution, circular structures, etc. ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-20 12:21 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737956 <-- but lists are sequences too, and strings can be represented as lists. this becomes problematic when O(1) random accesses are needed. if/when that happens, I will have to implement arrays, but until then... strings are lists-of-characters.

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-20#1741280 << it doesn't, logotron necessarily has to interpret the nature of bytes (because the display layer is explicitly encoded). so the log collection and storage is 8 bit clean, but display makes assumpetions for rendering purpose. specifically i assume that log is utf8, but if utf8 decoder fails on line, i fall back to latin-1 (this is a traditional irc mechanism, details of which have been discussed) ☝︎

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-20#1741176 << i don't need to consider that, i grok metacircularity, i.e. there's no such thing as builtin symbols. bytecode or not is lateral to that point. ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2017-11-20 03:40 pete_dushenski: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-19#1740754 << am i the only one who can't read "dex" without thinking "dexedrine" ? phf ?

phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-20#1741053 << i'm not part of the amphetamine culture. i like to sleep ☝︎

asciilifeform: i will add that the bounds checking code , which we have because idjit pc arch , dwarfs the actual algos

ben_vulpes: lol, precisely what i did

ben_vulpes: semi-relatedly, i went to build an extension cord for my dryer, ~all the old women at the hardwarestoremegachain insisted that i simply could not do what i was going to do

BingoBoingo: This happens. I see idea executed dangerously and poorly. Then "What if maintained and done better?" Often for many idiot things right means unreasonable, and then there is la escalara de winch.

pete_dushenski: lol ya that's what i heard too

mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2017/i-fucking-love-science-or-why-global-warming-wouldnt-produce-superhurricanes/#comment-123582 << in other breakfasrt physics

asciilifeform: i immediately pictured kakobrekla, if it wasn't obvious

mircea_popescu: i'm not even sure which exact schmucktard we're talking of, there were a bunch.

asciilifeform: i evaluated, thusly , that the man is a swine.

mircea_popescu: i've no way to evaluate all this.

asciilifeform: in application to d00d who never showed any symptoms of intrinsic (i.e. theorems) -- yes

asciilifeform: schmucktard, last i heard, was resting on a sofa made of whores in thailand

a111: Logged on 2017-09-12 21:08 rothbart: I've been trying to grok the segwit "theft" incentive - as the bounty grows, so does the PoW defending it - doesn't this keep the segwit outputs safe?