asciilifeform: ^ not only worx, but i posted not only proggy, but full explanation of algo, here. and yet folx ~still~ bashing heads over 'pinger threads' and other ???! epicycles?!☟︎
asciilifeform: PeterL: if you do, will learn, that moving parts have a cost -- even if they're invisible, mass-less, and supposedly 'phree'
asciilifeform: i agree w/ diana_coman tho -- try it yerself
asciilifeform: PeterL: ben_vulpes & trinque's orig bot actually worked this way. from the added complexity of multithread, had other problems entirely.
asciilifeform: paradox, on the surface, but perhaps still true
asciilifeform: trinque: sorta why asciilifeform regularly returns to mircea_popescu's (unwritten, but 'between the lines') dictum where 'the only people who have any biznis writing progs, is folx who never program'
asciilifeform: horrendous thing. even introduces ~nonstandard extension to cpp~, w/ own preprocessor
asciilifeform: trinque: ever try, btw, to write a proggy for gtk ?
asciilifeform: ( the items which seem like exception -- e.g. gnat, where -- at least the ada part -- is almost readable -- to date were products of small group of actually organized effort , rather than 'esr's bazar' or whatnot )
asciilifeform: 'xchat' in particular doesn't even prevent word frag
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'd like a client that warns when about to frag line ( but can't be currently aroused to try an' patch 'xchat', 'irssi', other horrors )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: initially i wrote perlisms to generate'em, then thought 'wtf' and rewrote in peh proper
asciilifeform: it only even begins to make sense in locales where the gas is actually mined
asciilifeform: ( fwiw i suspect that there's no escape from the 2cycle motors anywhere, with possible exception of where Mocky went, where only dukes get driver license and commoners must instead camel )
asciilifeform: presently i doubt that this sorta thing can ever be safely 100% automated.
asciilifeform: sorta how gentoo used to have for configs.
asciilifeform: currently closest thing i have to a workable idea for this is a ~semi~-automatic item that'd eat N dbs and display, to operator, the divergence points, and propose all possible cuts for how to resolve; then select one.
asciilifeform: ( esp. when we finally get 3+ logtrons )
asciilifeform: eventually ~will~ come the time when to reconstitute 100% proper picture gotta actually walk N db's .
asciilifeform: diana_coman: appears to work. we're gonna want an algo , tho, that doesn't resolve to 'throw out my db if outta sync and eat the other's' imho .
asciilifeform: 'new jersey philosophy', right, where 'hey it's good enuff, and if turns out not, let ~others~ clean up'. same way as email 'was goodenuff', from the idjit designer's pov, until spam, then suddenly 'what's yer problem with moving to walled gul^H^H^Hgarden, terrorist, will work there as before'. ditto irc.
asciilifeform: re 'why the fuck bot doesn't see own output' -- mircea_popescu had a piece re the idjicy of 'nat' , where same, q of 'what is my ip' becomes suddenly irresolvable w/out external help. i suspect in both cases 'sleep of reason breeds monsters', no one even considered to fucking think.
asciilifeform: ( lamport did not offer a 'wat-do if N parties can't agree on 'prev line'', if he had thought about this, bitcoin would have existed, at least as algo, in 1990... )
asciilifeform: e.g. bitcoin -- seen through this lens -- is simply a generalization of lamport's sync .
asciilifeform: long-ago solved problem , supposing anyone could've been arsed.
asciilifeform: see also lamport's piece re subj. ( actually from same period ) .
asciilifeform: ( incidentally -- as gedankenexperiment -- even 1980s irc ~could~ have been built so as to force a sync. simply force erry issued line to carry a checksum of the prev. seen. and if wrong -- you get eggog back, and asked to resend. but no one was even giving a nanoshit about 'agree on order' etc, quite obviously )
asciilifeform: the 'upgrades' are obv. product of 2nd bottle of whiskey.
asciilifeform: possib. 'product' of the other half of same bottle of whiskey as email.
asciilifeform: irc per se as i understand is a 'dark ages' creation, before ~anyone stopped to even try to think about ~anything
asciilifeform: i already despaired in re the very idea of 'synced time' ; but this is in re absolute ordering.
asciilifeform: re 'the beast' -- already unleashed is the beast of variant line ordering (bots will log their own output prior to any other's, per the current scheme, and it is not obvious what -- if anything -- could or even should be done about this )
asciilifeform: maybe -- not. but as i understand if the above can be had, than so -- later -- could this.
asciilifeform: imho the bare essential function is when the urls can be made interchangeable such that if 1 fails, can swap in /etc/hosts and carry on civilized conversation until it is fixed; errything other than this, is luxury.
asciilifeform: ( this ~is~ afaik 1st time that anyone attempted orchestra of synchronized bots )
asciilifeform: so as to find what is even practical to consider .
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm trying to draw an exact map of this 'cthulhu beast' .
asciilifeform: ( and hm, loox like diana_coman's unplugged for maintenance atm )
asciilifeform: let's suppose not even want this. still imho oughta maintain sync, where #1234 goes to same thing in ea. machine. otherwise the loggers are not in fact plug-in redundant backups for 1 another .
asciilifeform: only if you actually want backlinkage resembling phf's ( iirc mircea_popescu put it in spec, and even griped that it aint in yet , not long ago )
asciilifeform: as in e.g. phf's, where kako links display as originally witnessed, but if clicked to to phf's log.
asciilifeform: imho line rewriting is Wrong Thing entirely. errybody oughta have identical (to extent possible) db. q was re ~display~ in www , i.e. where the links point.
asciilifeform: so that knob (not implemented yet) becomes just about worthless even in principle. but this is only tip of iceberg -- if the db's diverge arbitrarily, how wouldja go about syncing gaps, other than by hand.
asciilifeform: yes, in that when errybody has own logger, and uses it to echo, nobody will have anyffin resembling a complete index of backlinks
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: how wouldja have backlinks ( as phf had ) work ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if had ...logger-a/log/trilema/.../#12345... and ...logger-b/log/trilema/.../#12345... go to same place, then their www can reliably point all links to self ( for e.g. backlinkage , when implemented) otherwise not
