log☇︎
44800+ entries in 0.027s
asciilifeform: this is factually not the case on unix tho. good % of the control is illusory ( see e.g. the zombie thread )
mircea_popescu: we're kinda discovering by doing here. but user-controls-machine is certainly in there.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the real q is , what subset of the claimed extant functionality adds up to a programming environment.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'house explodes when i turn on the hydrogen faucet' 'why do you have a hydrogen faucet ?'
asciilifeform: so consider what the airplane people do. they dun terminate. instead populate with N threads, where N is the # of physical cpu, and they can idle or work as demanded.
mircea_popescu: "house only explodes when you turn on water faucet" is not an answer here.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: unless i misread bvt's piece, the bugola is only triggered when tasks are permitted to terminate.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the issue is to come up with a linking scheme we can actually use.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-12 23:36 asciilifeform: the avionics people seem to use it, but they (near as i was able to learn) dun kill tasks at all, and regard any detected wedge as a http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-12#1895456 condition
mircea_popescu: aanyways, thanks to bvt 's reading material i am well spooked. wtf do we even do, now ?
mircea_popescu: clearly immigration to the uk worked out.
mircea_popescu: amir taaki is a dude who was trying to pimp his underage sister ten years ago. that's all, what the fuck already.
mircea_popescu: and the entirely fucktarded morons go about talking of this same schmuck in terms of some heroism or other, truly there's nothing more disgusting extant or imaginable than "people themselves" with their "democratically elected options" and whatnot.
asciilifeform: ( asciilifeform's unifying theory, is that living in c ecosystem turns ~all~ inhabitants, after enuff yrs, into a kind of rms; sorta like black lung of coal miner )
mircea_popescu: (the sister in question being the 15yo http://trilema.com/2012/amir-taaki-has-done-and-continues-to-do-huge-disservice-to-anyone-serious-involved-in-bitcoin/ schmuck was trying to sell for bitcoins as a "totally legit enterpreneurial enterprise" coupla years priors)
asciilifeform: imho typical 'living mushroom' fare.
asciilifeform: could link to the x60 affair also.
a111: Logged on 2012-09-16 01:12 mircea_popescu: Diablo-D3 because by now not that many people can be bothered to invite him anywhere.
a111: Logged on 2012-09-16 01:12 Diablo-D3: why the fuck did rms even show up
a111: Logged on 2012-09-16 01:03 nefario: stallman seemed like he was going to cry
a111: Logged on 2012-09-16 01:03 mircea_popescu: dude stop faking it, seriously. you, taaki and his sister showed up. nobody cares, fo reals.
asciilifeform: and in turn heapism hacks , from machine that has nfi how to partition memory meaningfully, etc.
asciilifeform: and all of this sepsis, comes from machine where there aint (and cannot be) any such thing as global symbol space, where pointer does not store any info re wtf it points to, nor does a block of code know that it is a block of code , nor lolcat gif knows that it is an array, etc
mircea_popescu: shoulda sent him some pennies, http://btcbase.org/log/2012-09-16#-267346 item cost the tard in question 500 bux or somethjing like that iirc. ☝︎
asciilifeform: ( naturally if you aint one of'em, can ask until the cows come home. recall mircea_popescu's letter to rms ? )
asciilifeform: y'know , all those listservs where the muppets shit out multiple MB erry day , that's where they 'ask' one another
mircea_popescu: what "ask the fellows to patch gcc, fix this one error we have". wtf, how do i ask this ?!
mircea_popescu: i can't believe this works.
asciilifeform: cuz, see, he feels free to 'assume', because anyone who doesn't, who demands to ~know~ before shooting, will have dropped out of school when faced with unixtardation
mircea_popescu: i mean, FB and 00 are equally likely to be fragment of null pointer.
asciilifeform: rather than pretense of 'infinite'
asciilifeform: antediluvian os (e.g. tops-10 et al) at least had hard limits printed in manual
mircea_popescu: why the fuck would you use encodings SMALLER than the bus width ?!
mircea_popescu: " /* Take care to ignore link-once functions that were removed. In these cases, the function address will be NULL, but if the encoding is smaller than a pointer a true NULL may not be representable. Assume 0 in the representable bits is NULL. */"
mircea_popescu: holy shit, EVERY SINGLE THING. look here : ☟︎
asciilifeform: unix tries to 'be all possible kitchen' and appears to 'succeed', via fraudulently slipping in 9000 unprincipled-exceptions (hardcoded limits, not only in gcc, but even 'ls' , see old thrd, and moar or less errywhere ) , and 'optimizations' ☟︎
mircea_popescu: what, i get the luxury of a door lock but programming environment must take all comers ?
asciilifeform: i.e. mircea_popescu actually knows that it dun need a deep fryer cuz wtf , it cannot be spontaneously filled with mcd eaters
mircea_popescu: you can't go around simply solving the most general case of everything. precisely because such a thing as closed system exists.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:49 asciilifeform: whore in some ways has better working condition -- at least she knows will not have to fuck tyrannosaur.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yer kitchen is a closed system , in the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897470 sense ☝︎
asciilifeform: ( 'but asciilifeform ! grep aint meant to run on hostile inputs !' 'guess wat, unix aint meant to run outside of locked mit hall with 4 pdp-8 in it either' )
mircea_popescu: but i do know what's typical in at least some cases. which is why my kitchen doesn't have a fast food counter.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: applicable to all cases where gnarly 'optimized for typical, and we think we know what is typical'
asciilifeform: it's 'sound tradeoff' until it aint (e.g. you have system where 'allcomers' can trigger a grep on a data set they crafted, and yer box grinds to a halt )
mircea_popescu: are you discussing the specific case of grep there ? because i do believe it's a sound tradeoff.
asciilifeform: ( with the bonus lul, that sometimes somebody walks in with a http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2906 , and then simply has to 'unhappen' )
a111: Logged on 2015-04-29 13:25 mircea_popescu: "Put another way, grep sells out its worst case (lots of partial matches) to make the best case (few partial matches) go faster. How treacherous! As this realization dawns on me, the room seemed to grow dim and slip sideways. I look up at the Ultimate Unix Geek, spinning slowly in his padded chair, and I hear his cackle "old age and treachery...", and in his flickering CRT there is a face reflected, but it's my ex girl
mircea_popescu: ie, there's occasions where insanity has its place (go no further than http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-29#1115740 ). but this fashion among the scriptkiddies/gnu-amateur crowd for insanity is improductive ☝︎
asciilifeform: y'know, sorta like how botulinum secretes its magic juice, so nuffin else eats the carcass.
asciilifeform: the type of people who cannot stomach this type of 'thinking', 'engineering', end up self-retiring from unixism entirely, they eat pistol, or learn to run a crane, etc
mircea_popescu: well, either that or they o(N) + n log n for some values of N, n. ☟︎
asciilifeform suspects that the '2mil' figure they got from 'how many in kernel 2.6 and let's times three' or similar
mircea_popescu: they themselves admit 2mn is an upper bound, BY WHICH TOKEN they themselves admit the complification was spurious.
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:10 mircea_popescu: now in other lulz, check this out : http://archive.is/89adR#selection-9.9948-9.10055 "This is a special mix of insertion sort and heap sort, optimized for the data sets that actually occur."
a111: Logged on 2019-02-17 14:45 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't fucking get it, just HOW FUCKING MANY symbols are they dealing with here ? by the sheer desperation screaming out of the code you'd think a compile produces at least 5 trillion of them.
mircea_popescu: the problem was : as per http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897450 seen in http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-17#1897382 -- is there call or isn't there call for such elaborate nonsense. the answer to this problem lies in the size of the dataset, if truly huge then ~perhaps~, but if small certainly not. then we had a discussion to establish whether large or small, which died on the facts, but i resurrected on culprit confession : ☝︎☝︎
asciilifeform: i thought mircea_popescu posed q of 'how many symbols on machine'.
mircea_popescu: sure. but we're not discussing the same thing here.
asciilifeform: rright, and this process eats a buncha libs, with n1, n2, ... nN syms in ea., and shits out e.g. another lib, that exports only 7.
mircea_popescu: ie, the thing they "optimized" into insanity never actually has to sort more than mn-level items, ie, no ufcking need to be made out of boats floating on billiard table
asciilifeform: so it tells you 0 about the total # of syms on the machine
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: rright, but that's ~per build~, and ea. build destroys symbols ( in the sense that they got statically pumped into the bin, and no longer 'exported' )
a111: Logged on 2016-01-21 13:29 asciilifeform: 'if i make it what i think is the right size, it crashes!111'
asciilifeform: ( spoiler : heapism per se is a solution to a problem that is ill-posed , and therefore impossible for malloc to be anyffin but an elaborate http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1379603 ) ☝︎
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: you gotta read the gnu malloc sores sometime. very similar 'thinking'.
mircea_popescu: besides -- at least they function.
asciilifeform: ahahaha typical
mircea_popescu: "/* The count field we have in the main struct object is somewhat limited, but should suffice for virtually all cases. If the counted value doesn't fit, re-write a zero. The worst that happens is that we re-count next time -- admittedly non-trivial in that this implies some 2M fdes, but at least we function. */" ☟︎
mircea_popescu: ahahaha jesus fuck this is incredible.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman myeah. i guess it'd take a patch on gcc, which is too much hassle atm.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu, I'm not aware of anything that actually does that reliably
asciilifeform: ( this is where asciilifeform cannot resist to 'on bolix, you simply ask the box what all symbols are, and can get source for whichever you point at' etc )
asciilifeform: if you walk ~entire box~ and count symbols, you can get an approximation of the 'universe' count
asciilifeform: ( that part will no longer appear as exported symbols, obv )
asciilifeform: you dun see what the called routines 'externed', cuz you had built the libs statically, they pulled in what they pulled in
asciilifeform: granted this aint recursive
mircea_popescu: i really have trouble believing the trillion thing.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: afaik in diana_coman's case it is trivial, cuz static link.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman is there some way to count the linker objects next time you compile say eulora ?
asciilifeform: asciilifeform does ~this for bread, currently, so arguably already condemned to this
asciilifeform: ( and asciilifeform -- trb ) etc
asciilifeform: iirc diana_coman already did some time in that joint , when walked koch's thing
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in other news, if they ever send you to http://btcbase.org/log/2019-02-02#1891380 ima suggest your punishment be you hafta literate code extant gnu offerings. you may not change any code, just add comments. ☝︎
mircea_popescu: (for completeness, approx - "men are of flesh, women, of steel. it shoul've been the other way around, but god's hunchback and not above mistakes ; women say they're flesh, men claim to be steel -- which is why it's dark at night and life a hotel"
asciilifeform: loox familiar, i suspect it was in a trilema piece
mircea_popescu: btw, you ever encountered "Bărbaţii-s făcuţi din carne, femeile - din oţel. Ar fi trebuit să fie invers, dar Dumnezeu mai greşeşte şi el...
asciilifeform: whore can look in guiness book and know approx what will have to take in. engineer on other hand will be given 'proggy may have to run on vax , and microshit, and ... '
mircea_popescu: knows no such thing.
asciilifeform: whore in some ways has better working condition -- at least she knows will not have to fuck tyrannosaur. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: see, engineers are worse than whores. a whore might pretend like she's not working, but an engineer does inept shit like "/* This should optimize out, but it is wise to make sure this assumption is correct. Should these have different sizes, we cannot cast between them and the overlaying onto ERRATIC will not work. */" so as to ~pretend~ like he doesn't see WHY exactly he wants to take that code out. seriously, ooga-booga-bu ☟︎
asciilifeform: ^ all gnutardisms are fulla this. cuz otherwise fat change anyone could come up with even a helloworld that builds at all.
asciilifeform: that's the prime mover.
mircea_popescu: so why all this bs, again ? just so nobody has to know what they;'re doing ?
asciilifeform: dynamic! it dun even gotta appear in the obj.
mircea_popescu: but as a factual matter -- object files end up a few mb, and they're not 100% symbol by mass. you jsut can not have this many.
asciilifeform: ( with added 'bonus' that you dun even know ~which~ , necessarily, recall dload() )
asciilifeform: 'dynamic link' makes it 'easy' to pull in literally trillion symbols.
mircea_popescu: which it does not, when's the last time you had 1mn. wtf is all this tim's wondermachines steampunk idiocy for ? can just sort a fucking list
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't fucking get it, just HOW FUCKING MANY symbols are they dealing with here ? by the sheer desperation screaming out of the code you'd think a compile produces at least 5 trillion of them. ☟︎