asciilifeform: diana_coman: the conundrum from my pov is that why to bother with protections if 'so what if they break, not as if it does anything'☟︎
asciilifeform: they are breakable by just about anybody with basic education without breaking much of a sweat
asciilifeform: diana_coman: right, but point was the futility of promisetronic 'protections'
asciilifeform: diana_coman: some folx are 'griefers' , neh, they will break just to break.
asciilifeform: asciilifeform's perspective is prolly coloured by his having been paid to both make and break such 'protections' in the saeculum many times.☟︎
asciilifeform: the hashes thing strikes me as promisetronic, it is already 'honour system', why not simply identify the client by name, same effect.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: asciilifeform's pov re the retardation of 'open sores' , rms et al, is that they are tards not because they throw open the coad to allcomers but because they have no concept of wot , therefore were unable to conceptualize vtronics .☟︎
asciilifeform: but imho this is a decision intimately for the folx who actually wrote the thing ( diana_coman , mircea_popescu ) , i've no skin in the game
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i don't see any problem with eulora making its src members-only ( whether l1 or the 2 people who actually work on it etc ) but will admit that i still don't see what it adds, other than ceremonially. the monkey herd can still plagiarize the existing published src .
asciilifeform: at that point the 'free ride' will end and we'll be stuck maintaining a kernel.
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835518 << linus is not immortal, and i expect that he will lose control of kernel -- just as he stupidly lost control of his trademark to 'linux foundation' (y'know, with gavin on staff) -- even before dies☝︎☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835489 << note that it specifically was an example of a seekrit with strictly limited lifespan -- once there are '9000' repeaters, the need to keep the details under wraps vanishes☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-17#1835519 << guilfanov spent years raging at 'pirates', planting boobytraps, even implemented his infamous 'church interdict' against anyone known to employ ida 'traitors' , then still ended up selling his firm to usg.☝︎☟︎
asciilifeform: Mocky: i grasp the argument, but must point out that all attempts to date to cudgel people into paying for software, have ended in tears ( usually for the cudgel-wielder )☟︎
asciilifeform: and the lack of reliance on magic/closed client is imho powerfully illustrative of the diff b/w eulora and heathen 'warcrafts'
asciilifeform: admittedly asciilifeform is not a eulorist, but i had a very positive picture of it as -- including other things -- a kindergarten teaching tool for 'fuck people but do biznis with keys' , 'pubkey is the soul', etc
asciilifeform: unless, again, i misread , what's contemplated is to somehow make 'fetlife female morons' who won't pgp and won't drop winblowz etc use an authenticated piece of soft, somehow ( something that e.g. banks have not been able to accomplish )
asciilifeform: folx who are so 'confusable' that they cannot be persuaded, by carrot or stick, to at the very least check a pgp sig , are beyond redemption
asciilifeform: possibly this is the root of disagreement -- asciilifeform takes mircea_popescu's old warning of 'just say no to any dealings with the malignantly stupid poor'(tm)(r) to heart, doesn't deal with the '50%', doesn't need them for anything whatsoever
asciilifeform: i've yet to encounter the case where the result was in some way confusable with the original
asciilifeform: 'they cloink a coupla with the sledgehammer so as to break down the find into shards the size they can fit in a pocket, after which they stick it on their oxcart'☟︎☟︎☟︎☟︎
asciilifeform: sorta why i invoked fg as example -- recently i noticed a heathen who lifted the analogue scheme , but could not resist gluing it to the usual heathen whitener , because how could he resist.
asciilifeform: heathens are , as i currently understand, so unspeakably stupid that 'stealing fixed code' is not to date ever observed, they re-break as soon as they touch. ( any heathens stole trb for the shitfork warz, other than funkenstein ? )
asciilifeform: to concretize -- what exactly might a malignant heathen do with eulora client ? make own idjit server to go with it ?
asciilifeform: hits, for the most part, only own foot. and other monkeys.
asciilifeform: monkey had ak for quite a while -- e.g. the openly published fg design; but apparently monkey has atrociously poor aim☟︎
asciilifeform: ftr i share in the traditional frustration ( which goes back to , yes, rms & the gpl folx ) where 'why should hitler get to use my proggy'. but imho it uncomfortably echoes that of the gurlz on arsebook etc, 'i want to write about my fucks but for ~everyone but mother~ to read'
asciilifeform: let's say that eulora becomes suddenly unspeakably popular , and lusers write 9000 sad clients. they're still forced to play by the game rules nailed down in the server, neh
asciilifeform: and why would the players prefer heathen shitfork to the orig
asciilifeform: my understanding is that client is currently published ; how many shoddy heathen forks ?
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought the eulora model was 'proprietary server, 9000 clients' ?
asciilifeform: mod6: can you think of a fraudulent scenario that isn't handled by simple vtronics and actually requires seekrit coad ?
asciilifeform: mod6: my original disagreement in $thread wasn't re 'sometimes gotta try to limit distribution to l1' -- it is very easy to think of cases where this is the obvious Right Thing -- but in re eulora client in particular, i still dun see what the eulora folx have to keep seekrit in the client ( i.e. what problem do 'heathens produce shoddy client' create, that ordinary pgp signature doesn't solve )
asciilifeform: or, more on point, specifically in contrast to 'warcraft' and similar muds where vendor plays whackamole with 'cheating' clients
asciilifeform: for some reason i thought that the thing was build specifically to be agnostic of client (i.e. so long as they speaks the published protocol, all clients work)
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: ( admittedly i haven't read the referenced item ) what's to stop client from sending to server the old hashes ?☟︎
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i thought of 1 far-conveyor item where i actually had it in my notes 'to be for l1 encyclical only' -- the shortwave repeater☟︎
asciilifeform: jurov incidentally is doing good work for pizarro fiat-wrangling apparatus
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i see binaries as a cache for src . ( exactly in fact how emacs sees it. ) and thereby i have approx same interest in downloading and running bins built by ~others~ , as in stuffing food they have pre-digested somehow into my own gut, bypassing mouth
asciilifeform: funnily enuff, entirely forgotten in his home country, but cult hit in former su world, where in fact he lived his last yrs
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: was. and '9000' other tales.
asciilifeform: ( if player can see the server, it is same as seeing all of the deck in card game )
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i think i actually grasp this
asciilifeform: even considering machine cycles to cost 0 -- the expense is psychological, of introducing promisetronics ( and , inescapably, doubt ) where it does not absolutely necessarily belong. but i risk repeating self.
asciilifeform: when the win from keeping out the heathens justifies the very real expense of keeping the cards to your chest
asciilifeform: it doubtless has merit, in selected cases.
asciilifeform: as mircea_popescu pointed out, i do same thing on numerous occasion
asciilifeform: i dun actually have any problem with idea of trade secret, where mircea_popescu & diana_coman keep their server to themselves under pillow etc.
asciilifeform: which strikes me as , to put it subtly, batshit
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it is possible that i misread the entire thread, but my understanding was that it was about considering the idea of no longer defaulting to open publication of e.g. cuntoo
asciilifeform: diana_coman: idea being, secrets have a place, if i did not believe this i would not have any interest in crypto. but their place is ~where must~, not ~wherever possible~
asciilifeform: i do not buy cockroach repellents, because my house has no cockroaches.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: it is precisely because i do not see a public outside of l1, that i regard the idea of 'l1-only publications' as in most cases wrongheaded
asciilifeform: even dope has a place, if you're a bomber pilot and flak killed your navigator, his assistant, and entire gun crew, and you're on the 71st hour of flying the somehow still-winged wreckage home , then yes, take the pill
asciilifeform: ( recall phf's story of 'cipherpunks culture' )
