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asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches/udp_genesis#L363 << moar errata, thing should eggog if bytes_sent != payloadlen

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 15:54 mircea_popescu: ave1 i very much hope you don't think your own work is a waste for this reason.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 14:48 mircea_popescu: incidentally ave1 what was your process there ? did you compile a higher language original (what, c ?) and then desasm the resulting object code ? followed by a handpass through the result, neating & trimming things out ? or did you start with a blank page and a legal pad ?

asciilifeform: diana_coman: last (for nao) observation -- 1) it is possible to make the thing 'fancier' in 2 ways -- can make Socket a 'controlled type' ( as i did in mmap, see http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850368 ) , then it can close itself when going out of scope. i did not do this, as it adds a bit of overhead 2) it is possible to make the lib a 'generic' ( again see horsecocks re how ) , and make udptrons of different packet length runti ☝︎

asciilifeform: there's also a missing restrict pragma in the lib, pragma Restrictions(No_Implicit_Conditionals) , took it out during dev (when experimented with to-string sans-callout ) and forgot to reinsert

asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches/udp_genesis#L298 also may produce string with spurious trailing whitespace, prolly oughta fix

asciilifeform: diana_coman, mircea_popescu : nobody noticed, but it is troo -- i forgot to close the socket in the demo ( this has 0 effect, os closes ). but in next rev will correct this.

mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-09-18 14:08 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851125 << incidentally, we very much want to do this. diana_coman mind setting up a large testing harness, send a soup of all packets lengths from 1 to 65536 bytes each hour back and forth for a week or two ?

asciilifeform: diana_coman: somewhere i also have glue for unix signals support, so proggy can do the Right Thing when you ctrl-c, or kill, etc. but this i'll dust off later (or if somebody has a dire need)

asciilifeform: diana_coman: there'll be no getting away from inline asm once we start planting things on naked iron.

asciilifeform: diana_coman, mircea_popescu : i thought about including timeout in 'procedure Receive...' but sat and thought and could not think of why , so omitted.

asciilifeform: the only part that'd change , for this, is what's in unix_udp.c ( 139 ln. )

phf: asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=udp and http://btcbase.org/patches/udp_genesis

asciilifeform: diana_coman: libc, specifically ( i like musl, but it doesn't belong on the fyootoor all-adatronic box )

mircea_popescu: diana_coman i can see it.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'm not married to the c glue, and it'll eventually go. i am quite fond of my api tho, it completely rids user of having to think in unixisms , imho

mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-09-18 14:20 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851155 << speaking of which, what's our next step here ? 1. wanna do cpu timing/load comparisons on the two libs ? 2. say that given the nature of the task (many different folk are expected to implement clients on various platforms) thin c is better than straight asm because more widely spoken and also presumably more portable/less friable ? 3. somethi

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu has it

asciilifeform: diana_coman: at the very minimum, survival rate, and latency. ( could also try to measure reorderiness, but immediately obvious how )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: this flavour of thing is actually a 1980s meme, is what passed for lolcats in those days

a111: Logged on 2018-05-25 04:38 mircea_popescu: now back to fake homosexuality : human sexuality is a learned behaviour. proper homosexuality is an inability to learn, akin to dyslexia or lefthandedness. fake homosexuality is the exact contrary, a lot of "what if"ism and "provemewrong"ism and so on. a social, rather than biological phenomenon.

BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Trope of the last decade, the weirdos go deeper and deeper into weirdo porn and dysfunction their sex

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 15:31 mircea_popescu: meanwhile at the lulzfarm, "What do you need to know about me? I'm one hell of a kind. Seriously. You might like me or not, but you'll surely not find anyone as annoying/amazing as me. I consider myself a "mystic scientist" because, what is the supernatural world but unknown knowledge? I'm an engineer, a painter, a thinker, a bookworm, a weirdo, a kinkster, a traveler, a constant horny sensualist."

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i also suspect that distinguishable folx , where they exist, are occupied with sumthing other than prattling re how supposedly distinguishable they are..

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 14:33 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851125 << incidentally, we very much want to do this. diana_coman mind setting up a large testing harness, send a soup of all packets lengths from 1 to 65536 bytes each hour back and forth for a week or two ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i suspect that he followed same method as described in his http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-2-no-c item ( which i suggested a long time ago ), simply take the calls & translate by hand into the linux abi convention

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 13:46 diana_coman: it's not fully clear to me if it's something needed /desired atm; at any rate, compared to where I was 2 days ago, it's great - all of a sudden it went from "need to do this from scratch, ugh" to "there are 2 republican libs with 2 approaches, which one fits best my needs?" ; I'm rather delighted to be honest

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851125 << incidentally, we very much want to do this. diana_coman mind setting up a large testing harness, send a soup of all packets lengths from 1 to 65536 bytes each hour back and forth for a week or two ? ☝︎☟︎

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i wrote the item originally for gossipd experimentations. udp gives a max practical packet length ( what it is , remains to be determined ) and if given proggy's protocol needs variably-sized ones, you can pad with rng. ☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 13:17 diana_coman: as I was saying earlier: atm the fixed packet length might clash a bit with what I need but it's not even fully clear it's not *better* to have a fixed packet length anyway

a111: Logged on 2018-09-02 02:04 mircea_popescu: well ? how EXACTLY did the entire "torzilla development community" spring up ? what the fuck is a lindsey kuper ?

asciilifeform: btw mircea_popescu , my article is pretty short, should nao be possible to answer the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850792 q mircea_popescu posed. ☝︎

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: it astonished me how folx were able to so elaborately break such a simple thing.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: better still, no allocations, period. ( as in my item )

a111: Logged on 2018-09-18 13:05 diana_coman: for completeness, version 3. GNAT.Sockets.Thin that is an Ada wrapper on C system calls containing however questionable approaches (e.g. returning access to String so effectively a pointer but worse than this: allocating memory on the heap and leaving the de-alloc to the caller...)

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851102 << this is such, SUCH terribly bad practice, srsly now. scope the fucking memory handling, so both ends always happen in the same context. either the caller allocates and then also deallocates, diana_coman style, or else the callee allocates and deallocates. none of this insane scope bridging jesus christ. ☝︎

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'партия сказала -- надо!, комсомол ответил -- есть!'(tm)(r)

mircea_popescu: diana_coman: to round this whole thing up: 2 days ago it seemed I had only the gnat.sockets/ thin layer option which wasn't fit for purpose; now I have 2 more options: << it's been an epic few days! (what happened ?)

asciilifeform: ave1: know what would be neat ? ~raw~ packet support. ( recall mircea_popescu's 'i hate udp' thread )

asciilifeform: diana_coman: lemme know if you think of further 'why did he do that'-s.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: virtually all nontrivial programs eat or display an ip in txt form somewhere, i've found. incl the demo. hence, included.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i already nailed down a format, observe, ip is stored always as native-endian 32bit.

asciilifeform: diana_coman: imho that functionality belongs in a udp lib ( given as it demands knowledge of how ip is represented ) but prolly oughta be a troo ada thing, not a callout. however implementing it would double the mass of the proggy

asciilifeform: diana_coman: i handle all eggogs

asciilifeform: diana_coman: imho variable-length-datagram is for the birds. hence i jettisoned good bit of complexity by omitting it

asciilifeform: diana_coman: anyffing useful and conspicuously missing ?

asciilifeform: diana_coman: observe, my lib is somewhat unorthodox, it tries to abstract entirely over the os socket, nails down a fixed packet length, ipv4 4evah, no 'nonblockisms' - who wants these, can implement via ada task; no dnsism supported at all, etc

asciilifeform: diana_coman: afaik the only useful option re udp avail on linux is reuseaddr

mimisbrunnr: Logged on 2018-09-18 12:37 diana_coman: to round this whole thing up: 2 days ago it seemed I had only the gnat.sockets/ thin layer option which wasn't fit for purpose; now I have 2 more options: 1. ave1's ADA implementation of UDP sockets using directly ASM inline 2. asciilifeform's light UDP sockets lib that uses C code for needed UDP sockets calls but provides an Ada wrapper so that any code using the lib can call Ada methods

lobbesbot: diana_coman: Sent 3 hours and 51 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2557 .

a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 20:44 diana_coman: the question+kick&ban sounds good to me - kicking "silent" aka "I'm part of it because I hang about in here doing nothing" is even needed by now, I'd say; I can also see very well its usefulness for other channels; while atm #eulora tolerates the allah-spam, it could certainly do without it especially at less-quiet times

asciilifeform: !Q later tell diana_coman http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2557 .

asciilifeform: ( and e.g. mircea_popescu unsheaths ~erry day, and i dun recall him finding it headache ) ☟︎

asciilifeform: if mircea_popescu puts in a 'folx who lurked for n day and said 0' kicktron, i'll clap.

a111: Logged on 2017-03-22 20:53 ben_vulpes: i'd almost rather see an auto-kicker

a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 20:05 mircea_popescu: simply have a knob that decides whether {crypto|plain} auth is used ; crypto does what it does now, plain asks a question, "Tell me what color is the sky", picked from a list or somesuch.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 19:57 mircea_popescu: it seems to me to be the right thing here, "connect when you're you". otherwise, who are we talking to ?

a111: Logged on 2018-09-03 19:23 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/cltKR/?raw=true << you were in a few times.

asciilifeform: actually quite recently, iirc mircea_popescu was even awake for it

a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 19:56 mircea_popescu: anyway, seems to me "automatic connections" is a take on "a man walks into a bar" consisting of "but it wasn't really a man, just the hologram of one"

a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 19:38 mircea_popescu: trinque tbh i was thinking of revising the voice model altogether, in favour of a voice-or-kick model.

trinque: mircea_popescu: eh? I'm not following you. implementing what you described would get someone banned if their IRC client is automatically reconnecting during netsplits and etc

mod6: asciilifeform BingoBoingo ben_vulpes ^

a111: Logged on 2015-02-17 03:31 mircea_popescu: meanwhile, moore's dead, and the thing will suffer the exact fate of printing.

mircea_popescu: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futures_studies << example wank. it's a whole school of pantsuitism.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: that was the marketing dept. d00d himself was moar of a quimby.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually very similar to nao -- d00d who spend childhood cleaning chicken shit instead of on horseback, was not lord material

asciilifeform: ( mircea_popescu , recall garcia lorca's 'alma de charol' ? )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the way i understand it, there's a set of folx with souls, and another, larger, set of meatpuppets with soul-emulator in ms 'excel'. and no, can't bridge gap, how would this even go.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: linus's kernel was the last remaining 'open sores' item that was 'usable from upstream' afaik. ☟︎

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: linux kernel as a going concern prolly has ~months of life in it, if not weeks

a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 12:41 diana_coman: I can just about see next version of linux-with-feelings

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: memcpy is simply a multiword mov

asciilifeform: ( ~all i got is make_socket, get_packet, send_packet , that's it. )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'defined' is the item that differs in asciilifeform's, in fact. i dispensed with ~90% of the knobs simply by going 'sockets are udp, that's it'. no tcpism, i.e. no accept() and the associated streamolade, no unix sockets with their weird, etc.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: interesting, none of'em stay put ?

mircea_popescu: anyway -- fuck 'em, i deeply fucking care some nobody-on-a-stick meanwhile joined the churchgoing group. whatever. but in matters of actual interest : you "were working" on an ada networking socking thing ; ave "was working" on ~same. had diana_coman not said "here's what ~~~I AM ABOUT TO DO~~~", we would have never known. if the wastefulness of this approach isn't directly obvious...

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: torvalds's thing reads like the zinoviev&kamenev 'confessions' ☟︎

mircea_popescu: ps. there's a FUCKING DIFFERENCE between "my lifetime of not understanding emotions" and what's happening there. "understanding" emotion is not of the ilk of the pantsuit "you have to understand" aka http://trilema.com/2017/mimi-metallurgico-ferito-nellonore/#footnote_0_75893

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i must disagree that ave1 duplicated the effort -- his item is foundation for a fyootoor raw-irons gnat, imho

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: torvalds danced in the noose longer than most, is all i can add

a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 11:42 ave1: diana_coman, code is here; http://ave1.org/code/suckit/, everything is pretty much in flux still (even then name could change, currently ip addresses are in network order but ports are in native order)

a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 09:06 diana_coman: arguably it helps if others know what you are working on - perhaps one can help at some point or at least not duplicate the effort, that's all

a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 12:41 diana_coman: sounds quite likely; and tbh that http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850713 makes for weird/sad/hysterical reading depending on pov

mircea_popescu: diana_coman i am not reading on. i'm done with torvalds.

diana_coman: mircea_popescu, read on, he published it meanwhile and I am looking at it right now

a111: Logged on 2018-09-17 09:45 diana_coman: lobbes, esthlos, hanbot, ave1 - do you have something against using categories on your blogs? I find well-defined categories to be really helpful in finding stuff but on your blogs everything is in the "Uncategorized" category

diana_coman: ave1, hm, the recv_from doesn't return the length of the received string?

diana_coman: now I need to read at least https://docs.adacore.com/gnat_ugn-docs/html/gnat_ugn/gnat_ugn/inline_assembler.html

ave1: Yes, that's right, the source for syscalls is in the platform directory (so in platform/linux-x86_64-asm

ave1: diana_coman, code is here; http://ave1.org/code/suckit/, everything is pretty much in flux still (even then name could change, currently ip addresses are in network order but ports are in native order) ☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-09-16 16:35 mircea_popescu: honestly, FEWER "this is my fork design" would be way better than more. http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/basini-unique.jpg and all that.

a111: Logged on 2018-09-14 16:42 asciilifeform: BingoBoingo, mod6 , ben_vulpes : ordered ! 308.28 orcbux ( 62.18 of'em orc fee, 37.21 -- postage, the rest -- 8 drives and pack of 20 adhesive hedgehogs )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: a++++ ocelot

a111: Logged on 2018-09-16 16:35 mircea_popescu: honestly, FEWER "this is my fork design" would be way better than more. http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/basini-unique.jpg and all that.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: plox to clarify, is http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-16#1850668 an arg in favour or against posting $subj ☝︎

asciilifeform: then diana_coman may find it useful, i'ma hurry up & genesis ( realistically tomorrow posted. )

asciilifeform: diana_coman and mircea_popescu can read and use if they like it, i'ma genesis