tmsr - Log 2018-10-27

BingoBoingo: !!v EFD4B069AB0E3AF5638641F4F299DC98E97B36FA78F98570EBCFE04CE7B575EC

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-26#1866650 << normally not an issue worth thinking about ; but if it coems with saving a lot of gnarly back and forth,,, ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 21:02 diana_coman: asciilifeform, I guess mircea_popescu has a point: one can choose just *what* has to go through the MPI swamp and what not

mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-26#1866669 <<< this statement is too general. "which one has the largest first octet". that's it. ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 21:09 diana_coman: basically "which one has a higher octet first if I walk them from left to right?"

mircea_popescu: i wont cry if every once in 256 cases you do an extra oaep that 50-50 might've not been needed.

mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo it was just a throway oneliner ic ame up with while walking off a steak, sadly no more there.

Mocky: mircea_popescu, do you have any interest in kuwait? if so I can keep this lead warm on the back burner while I work qatar

BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo it was just a throway oneliner ic ame up with while walking off a steak, sadly no more there. << AH, I though maybe Tess Hollandaise died of excess mass and had been replaced as leader of the hamplanets by a younger, dumpier model

a111: Logged on 2018-10-27 01:49 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-26#1866669 <<< this statement is too general. "which one has the largest first octet". that's it.

deedbot: http://thetarpit.org/posts/y05/07e-hermannstadt-ii.html << The Tar Pit - Hermannstadt, part two: the huge-ass photo shoot

deedbot: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2593 << Loper OS - Can the Serpent Cipher fit in the ICE40 FPGA?

asciilifeform: approx, yes ( tho keep in mind that said chip, in order to do useful work, gotta have at least a bit of room for other things, unless one were to equip board with >1 ( not end of the world, they're, what, 8bux ) )

hanbot: mod6, ben_vulpes, et al: nicoleci sent 31 emails (as per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-13#1861765 ) to various news outlets last night, and will report any replies here. i expect more mail to go out this week, will update. ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-10-13 07:14 hanbot: anyway the idea is to have an exhaustive list of news outlets with their contact email made, after which i'll have her mail that blurb; i expect something like a week's turnaround, and will report when it's done.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: observe also that the sbox mechanism is 'bitsliced' (i.e. the bits move only 'vertically' there ) so potentially it can be shrunk at expense of speed . so the real puzzler isn't 'does serpent fit', it can almost certainly be shoehorned, but 'with how little/much unrollage' i.e. what resulting eating bitrate.

asciilifeform: it is also possible that the equations can be simplified further, i did a fairly surface job of it, mostly by hand

asciilifeform: literally 2hr's evening wurk.

asciilifeform: btw, spoiler : i put the thing in an ice40-8k , simply did not have time to write up yet, and the fwd sbox in fact eats roughly 1/4 of the gates . which leaves the orig question wide open...

asciilifeform: in other minutiae, the terms i left in xor-containing form, can of course be expressed in not/and/or , but this resulted in seven-term ORs , which i assumed is a greater delay than to let it use a xor LUT; but this is not experimentally confirmed, and one might conceivably get better throughput if all of the terms were rewritten in the and/or/not form.

asciilifeform: 'yosys' ( 'icestorm'-'s synthesizer, suggests a max clock rate of ~25Mhz for the posted form. )

asciilifeform: hanbot: neato, ty

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform so did you measure throughput of this thing ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as in, whether it actually sboxates at the stated 25MHz ? notyet, gotta write a serial i/o thing for it, to do this. possibly later today.

asciilifeform: i expect the sbox won't actually be the bottleneck in a full serpentron tho

asciilifeform: rather, it'll be the rotational transforms.

asciilifeform: those are blocking, i.e. take multiple clocks ea.

asciilifeform: imho, if an ice40 can be coaxed into serpenting at , say, 1MB/s, it's worth sumthing, otherwise iffy

asciilifeform: ( and conceivably, worth sumthing even if it takes having ~two~ on the board; problem is that i dun presently have a board with 2 , to actually try )

asciilifeform: believe or not, seems like nobody has ever publicly baked a board with >1

asciilifeform: i've gathered afaik all of the commercial demo boards with ice40, they all have 1 ea.

asciilifeform: if i were baking asic ( not sure why anybody would blow 'orbit' moneys on serpent asic, but for the sake of arg ) would unroll the sbox invocation the way it is unrolled in the pc serpent diana_coman is using, there'd be no reason not to have 128 or what, independent copies. but in the tight space of ice40 this is out of the question.

asciilifeform: err, 32

asciilifeform: is the actual parallelism of the algo. the rotator would likewise win from having 32 physical instances, as obvious from http://ossasepia.com/2018/02/22/eucrypt-chapter-11-serpent/#selection-87.15048-87.17527

asciilifeform: so from that point it becomes a q of the actual gate delays. in principle a serpentron that does coupla 100MB/s is physically possible. ( just not on my desk, lol )

asciilifeform: i admit, the seekrit reason asciilifeform could even be arsed to pick the thing up, is that to write serpent in maximally algebraic form might tell us sumthing useful re the weakness.

asciilifeform: ( the orig author, to be fair, did write it algebraically, but in imho somewhat cryptic form )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: grr, typo, ~65~ not 25

asciilifeform: but funnily enuff, just from this 2hr lulz we already know moar than from my combined stash of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-26#1866343 pointlessly-murdered trees... ☝︎

a111: Logged on 2018-10-26 16:08 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: in re these lulz, at one point asciilifeform dug for 'anybody ever verilog-ified serpent?' and found a stack of 'papers'. any src ? mno. but plenty of 'discussion' of supposed 'implementation', in the traditional nadia henninger style .

asciilifeform: ohai mod6

asciilifeform: mod6: slowly

asciilifeform: mod6: goin' back to my very full ada plate

asciilifeform: mod6: that, + tall pile of saecular rubbish

asciilifeform: !#s from:|\n

asciilifeform: aah cr50 d00d

mircea_popescu: i certainly see the point re "explore the space" ; and yes a serpent implemented as both eulora workhorse and verilog is better studied than just former.

asciilifeform: !!up |\n

mircea_popescu: i don't even think there's anything wrong whatsoever with studying the damned thing. my reservations were strictly around investing any kind of "this is te republic's encryptodisk" flag on it\

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i view block ciphertrons as a 'slightly better than nuffin' kind of tech -- would slightly rather lose a serpented disk to enemy than naked one; but that's about it

mircea_popescu: i'd rather hang the moron flattering himself with "enemy" that tried to lose me a disk than either of these.

mircea_popescu: |\n suppose you start by introducing yourself and showing the minimum awareness of republican process of using sane fucking pastebins.

asciilifeform: hang straight off the yardarm of dirigible, wainot

asciilifeform: |\n: haven't seen, but if it actually worx, will be hilarious

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: linked item alleges that if one divides 0xa1a2a3a4 by 0xb1b2b3b4 on x86, triggers magic nsa hole.

asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/jb4Pz/?raw=true << for perma-l0gz.

|\n: not to mention that amount of such holes, of course if that works, is immense

asciilifeform: |\n: where'dja come across this, and for what chip is it alleged to work ?

mircea_popescu: is this more of that romanian fellow's "magical usb stick aliens" ?

mircea_popescu: Firefox 50.0 32-bit on Linux << should be easy enough to test

asciilifeform: eh |\n it's a duck : apparent source is https://ecc2017.coreboot.org/uploads/talk/presentation/38/Microcode.pdf talk , and demands a pre-diddled, per the recipe, old amd k8/k10

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: piltdown man

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, don't you remember this thing ? some dood went off deep end, that there's a cvasi-magical virus in his usb stick. cca 2015 vintage logs ☟︎

asciilifeform: ( flip to last pg )

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: yes i recall very well. this one is genuine, tho, but one half of a rigged academi-demo, requires ~their~ microcode patch

asciilifeform: rather than a wild thing.

asciilifeform: 'As explained in Section 7.2, we use ASM.JS code in Firefox 50 to trigger the implemented x86 div Trojan. It is shown in Listing 9.'

asciilifeform: nah, it's part of a 'if you could patch microcode, here's how you might trigger the bomb' stage magic demo.

asciilifeform: there's no 0day here.

asciilifeform: evidently sumbody passed it off to |\n as an 0day

asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/oFd2X/?raw=true << full text of the pdfturd, for the l0gz.

asciilifeform: |\n: if it was shown to you as 'omfg exploit!111', you've been duped.

asciilifeform: the given coad does nuffin on an off-the-shelf chip. it was an example meant to work with supplied microcode patch.

mircea_popescu: of course, microcode patches happen in the wild, so it's not entirely meritless.

asciilifeform: theoretically the trigger for the ~actual~ boobytrap in x86 cpu would look very similar, yes

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: not meritless, but not a weapon, toy store water gun, is the idea.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: needs diddled bios + the crown jewels of intel/amd, to diddle microcode (intel's is rsa'd, amd's simply obscure/undoc'd) , and if yer diddling bios can make much simpler trap. but yes, would work

asciilifeform: i saw |\n's snippet and thought 'loox familiar' and sure enuff it was in that 2017 piece.

asciilifeform: |\n get yourself a key already and reg with deedbot

asciilifeform: !!help

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-27#1866787 << for the record >> http://trilema.com/2013/badbios-aka-badlydonedamagecontrol/ ☝︎☟︎

a111: Logged on 2018-10-27 18:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, don't you remember this thing ? some dood went off deep end, that there's a cvasi-magical virus in his usb stick. cca 2015 vintage logs

asciilifeform: famous lulgem

asciilifeform: observe that the gag vanished without a trace.

asciilifeform: it went to where all cheap psyops lulz go when they die.

asciilifeform: sorta like the usual 'hey i found nessie' 'wouldja like to borrow my diving gear and thermal cam?' 'mmm nessie is invisible to thermal cam and what's a diving mask' '...'

asciilifeform: in today's variation, 'hey i found a dead mermaid' 'um, this is a bloated dolphin carcass' '...'

asciilifeform bbl:meat

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform here's a q : how feasible/costly would it be to have an array of tiny switches ? say 32x8 ?

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: what sorta switches are you thinking of ? if it's ye olde DIPs, nobody cancelled'em, they're maybe a dime for a block of 8, and look today exactly as you remember then from yer 286

asciilifeform: or are we talking spring-loaded thingies for reading punched card, or wat.

asciilifeform: archaetypical example, say, https://archive.is/0IRmv photo

asciilifeform: i'll point out that nobody ever booted from '32x8 block' tho, if you recall folx booted from 8 (or 9 or whatever your byte bitness) + 'forward' button, word-at-a-time

asciilifeform: flipping massive grid with fingers is a bitch

asciilifeform: on subj : https://archive.is/7ILm0 << notbad illustration of how pdp was booted.

asciilifeform: ( the classic pdp-8, that is )

asciilifeform: actually scrach that, it's a terrible illustration. but i dun have a good one handy.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: if it's for cipher keys -- imho terrible idea to have ~all~ the key bits as physical switched in parallel, third party has no biznis being able to see the key simply by getting a peek at a keyed box with eyes

asciilifeform: *switches in

asciilifeform: ( you also wanna be able to unkey a box at a second's notice, and that aint happening with parallel key-as-switches, either )

asciilifeform: it's why usg lost its precious keyz when bestkorea took famous ship 'pueblo'

asciilifeform: ( iirc the prescribed key-wipe mechanism was a brick of dynamite, and the crew decided it wanted to live a bit moar )