mircea_popescu: ;;later tell pete_dushenski saw add for fast and furious 7 here, wondered idly who the fuck could possibly need or want that.
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo can i has short summary as to who the proper nouns are ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Josh Hamilton: great but not-elite baseball player relapsed into his booze and blow habit. Started sucking at baseball right after Los Angles's other baseball team signed him for 125 million dollars over 5 years. They are trading him to Texas and eating 90% of the remaining payroll.
BingoBoingo: Texas gets him for 7 million dollars over 3 years, The other Los Angeles team pays the remaining 76 million dollars so he can play for this other team.
BingoBoingo: (other los angeles team meaning, not the Dodgers)
BingoBoingo: Quite a bit older than Mutu. Hamilton also played for the Texas team before, in his past life when he was good.
BingoBoingo: But when he went to LA coach made him quit chewing tobacco in the dugout and... It's hard to smash a baseball at an elite level while in the throes of nicotine withdrawal
mircea_popescu: i suppose nobody is laying the 120mn loss at the feet of the idiotic coach ?
BingoBoingo: Well the whole ownership group of that team is fucked. They have about a Billion dollars tied up in contracts of people they signed just as their careers had peaked.
BingoBoingo: Seriously they sign Albert Pujols to a quarter Billion dollar contract and the next year... Their best player is a cost controlled rookie.
BingoBoingo: Four years later, Rookie isn't quite as cost controlled and still their best player
BingoBoingo: Josh Hamilton though is basically the Carl Mark Force IV of Los Angeles Sports. Devil couldn't pay enough to secure his love and clean living.
BingoBoingo: The Trout kid they got the cheap MVP years out of is still ok. They haven't broken him. Seems like he has staying power when the wikipedos say: "On April 17, 2015, Trout became the youngest player in MLB history to reach 100 home runs and 100 stolen bases.[100] He was 23 years and 253 days old when he reached the milestone, passing the previous record-holder, Alex Rodriguez, who had achieved it at the age of 23 years and 309 days
BingoBoingo: A morality tale could probably be woven out of all of this, but at the very least it illustrates the bezzel bucks sillicon valley pisses around aren't that big of a deal.
trinque: bunch of delinquent kids throwing rocks, looks like
Pierre_Rochard: this is because steam started charging for mods right?
BingoBoingo: Who knows? Maybe Baltimore manages to get the win over the po-po before FBI agents like Sharpton walk them back to the fields.
BingoBoingo: Pierre_Rochard: It is because Barack Obama doesn't care about black lives.
Pierre_Rochard: ah, well, judging from the press conference, baltimore’s black leadership does not care about black lives either
BingoBoingo: Pierre_Rochard: "Black Leadership" is coded language for "FBI Provacateurs and Informants"
trinque: this could just be the most visible effect of an ever shittier economy
trinque: blacks tend to be on the poorest end
mircea_popescu: <Pierre_Rochard> this is because steam started charging for mods right? << lol mioght even be
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 75800 @ 0.00029461 = 22.3314 BTC [-] {4}
Pierre_Rochard: she’s going for the claire underwood female politician schtick
Pierre_Rochard: nothing wrong with it - probably the right approach, gotta dress the part etc
mircea_popescu: on the other hand, her makeup is atrocious and wtf is with the teeth already
Pierre_Rochard: another thing I noted - press conference had only black people speaking. Cops on the ground are mostly white
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37850 @ 0.00029974 = 11.3452 BTC [+] {2}
Pierre_Rochard puts color-blind glasses back on, reaffirms allegiance to the land of opportunity
mircea_popescu: you know why that is, too. cause fucktarded "press" derps woudl; talk of nothing else.
mircea_popescu: there's a very substantial "hay fire" effect. look at the fetlife derps : they got REALLYVERYANGRY!!11 for five minutes. once they couldn't do anything in that interval... well ok, it's no longer a thing now.
mircea_popescu: kinda how america works now : anything that can't be altered in a day is part of the permanent landscape by that fact. and so...
mircea_popescu: they'd have thrown a shitfit at the white speakers. that's it.
mike_c: <+mircea_popescu> mike_c hm, the timestamp gets sorted weirdly (alphabetical, so aug 2014 is after april 2013 etc) << looks right to me. link?
mike_c: maybe he forgot that aug 2014 actually did come after april 2013
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33917 @ 0.00030067 = 10.1978 BTC [+] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44083 @ 0.00030725 = 13.5445 BTC [+] {3}
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: "first the planes, then and only then the women?" << what's the actual quote i'm looking for here
BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Hence the astounding over all of the licensing derpations
ben_vulpes is sorely undereducated for the references in question
ben_vulpes: i was going to go home and attempt a translation of my own...
ben_vulpes: (doods i put 6 new stickie notes in the "pipeline" column of my Wall o' Sales today)
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: re blockchain telegraphy: why bother even with the persistence layer? why not just transmit messages around in transactions that will never get included in blocks?
BingoBoingo: <ben_vulpes> asciilifeform: re blockchain telegraphy: why bother even with the persistence layer? why not just transmit messages around in transactions that will never get included in blocks? << No way to ensure they get relayed
ben_vulpes: what is the incentive for a client to maintain anything in the mempool?
ben_vulpes: seriously, because i'm retarded: what is the incentive to keep a tx in the mempool that will be included in a block but not one that won't?
☟︎ ben_vulpes: ;;later tell menahem sorry, bouncer failure. lost everything you sent me.
ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: myeah, but chat (this one aside) is ephemeral
BingoBoingo: Telegrams are not chat. I mean when "STOP" is cheaper than "."
assbot: Logged on 27-04-2015 14:17:33; mircea_popescu: !rate justusranvier -1 I dunno, afaik he's just kinda derpy (see
http://trilema.com/2015/what-amused-me-today/ etc) but my WoT hates him now, and so I can't in good conscience keep a meaningless +1, nor do I want to set it to 0 because then it gets deleted. Brb adding footnotes to this rating.
ben_vulpes: i'm not proposing mempool as persistence layer - even i'm not that braindead
BingoBoingo: Eh, braindead is better than parts being too alive in the wrong places
BingoBoingo: Which layers are grossly out of proportion in that centrifuged tube...
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40850 @ 0.00029738 = 12.148 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46800 @ 0.00029731 = 13.9141 BTC [-] {2}
pete_dushenski: ;;later tell mircea_popescu who da fuck sees furious 7 indeed.
pete_dushenski: when i called my friends up on saturday night, i could barely believe my ears, but went and had a good laugh anyways.
pete_dushenski: at the very least, i knew it would provide useful fodder for teh contravex cannon ;)
☟︎ pete_dushenski: the final chase scene, in imax at least, was a complete blur though.
pete_dushenski: my eyes are used to plaintext! not that whizbang kids shit.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76200 @ 0.00030409 = 23.1717 BTC [+]
pete_dushenski: "Over the weekend, a BitGo user reported on Reddit that he had lost 85 BTC while using the BitGo Legacy Wallet Recovery Tool. The user reported that, while the tool reported it would send his entire balance of about 102 BTC to the target address, in fact it only sent 16 BTC to the target address, resulting in a whopping mining fee of 86 BTC being paid."
pete_dushenski: "The root cause of the problem occurred during the output value serialization step when the redeem transaction was constructed. During the process of converting the number into bytes for use in the transaction, bitwise operators were used in this old version of the code, which converted the output value (in satoshis) to a 32 bit integer, causing an integer overflow and truncating the output of 10227087437 satosh
cazalla: watching these hilarious riot vids on 8chan but all the nigs throwing rubbish bins and at best, bricks at the police.. you'd think they were at the point where it'd be open season on the boys in blue
cazalla: seeing nignogs are only too happy to fire on other nignogs, imma say their heart really isn't in this riot and it'll peter out.. it's *not* happening, sorry /pol/ lol
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 27-04-2015 21:51:03; BingoBoingo: <cazalla> doesn't like that".. same woman who thought pumpkins grew under the ground lol << pumpkin seeds are the best vandalism
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72000 @ 0.00030418 = 21.901 BTC [+] {2}
pete_dushenski: cazalla: ya the riot seems a bit, well, soft. at least in the reuters photos.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 94187 @ 0.00029547 = 27.8294 BTC [-] {5}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 61200 @ 0.00029014 = 17.7566 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19803 @ 0.00029008 = 5.7445 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19700 @ 0.00029008 = 5.7146 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 02:58:00; asciilifeform: davout might also appreciate ^
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13975 @ 0.00029034 = 4.0575 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20000 @ 0.00029034 = 5.8068 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5400 @ 0.00029034 = 1.5678 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28400 @ 0.00029008 = 8.2383 BTC [-]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19160 @ 0.00029034 = 5.5629 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30993 @ 0.00029034 = 8.9985 BTC [+]
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17122 @ 0.00028872 = 4.9435 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19150 @ 0.00029894 = 5.7247 BTC [+] {3}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37820 @ 0.00028807 = 10.8948 BTC [-] {2}
kakobrekla: ;;later tell pete_dushenski thats mps thing
kakobrekla: you told me to change the ip and then it went from working to not working
kakobrekla has no idea how the fck do i diagnose whats wrong in this 'cpanel'
mircea_popescu: ;;later tell mike_c btw, the svg cuts ever so slightly of the names on the left, like "anielkraw" and "iatouriansky_"
kakobrekla: maybe you can spot the error if you log in ?
mircea_popescu: "Here is a list of the first 3,730 of FetLife’s financial supporters who are male- and dominant-identified. "
BingoBoingo: Seriously, let all the agendas make fetlife lists
mircea_popescu: what's really funny to me is that there's a "social media site", with 3-4mn claimed "users". out of these 3-4mn, if 1% are actually there you're lucky, and out of those 1% if anothyer 1% is even vaguely worth the mention you're ahead of the curve.
mircea_popescu: BUT! out of all those millions... you should be surprised if like... two people get it, a month or two later.
mircea_popescu: that's where we're at, currently. crowd source means, you gotta get 4 mn "users" together to get two guys that get it two months later.
mircea_popescu: it's not even that it'd be easier to do the getting yourself, by hand. or that it'd be easier to make an eliza get it. you could actually run a school and get better results.
mircea_popescu: which is kind-of like how the us army works, too : you need 4 mn people employed by the pentagon to get two dudes shooting a rifle at the enemy two months later.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28000 @ 0.00028791 = 8.0615 BTC [-]
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 02:22:37; ben_vulpes: you know, that kindergarten class
mircea_popescu: better. now if only it had availed itself of those magical inventions of the 70s called... html and web!
mircea_popescu: so you know, i can go "hmm... what else did this guy write" and stuff.
mircea_popescu: and speaking of which... the great moment ? of yesterday ? and day before yesterday ? did i miss it ?
mircea_popescu: there isn't a real life that's gonna start just as soon as this one's tweaked into perfection, you xtian you.
mircea_popescu: well... once you decide to commit to sysadmining that box, you can take cpanel off :D
mircea_popescu: and you can even build a btc business on top of this!!1
mircea_popescu: if you commit to sysadmining it i don't care what you do, you can reos it for all i care.
mircea_popescu inspects list. fetlife check, alf check, mike check, who am i going to bother and disturb next ?
mircea_popescu: the time for winning staring contests with rocks is at five.
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 03:17:06; asciilifeform: and other thing is, clients have tremendous incentive to drop mempool tx that is an obvious non-candidate for block
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 70826 @ 0.00029101 = 20.6111 BTC [+] {3}
mircea_popescu: that people currently do... people currently do all sortsa things
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 03:19:10; ben_vulpes: seriously, because i'm retarded: what is the incentive to keep a tx in the mempool that will be included in a block but not one that won't?
mircea_popescu: this latter part is not implemented yet. because power braindamage.
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 05:19:01; pete_dushenski: at the very least, i knew it would provide useful fodder for teh contravex cannon ;)
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 07:41:15; cazalla: seeing nignogs are only too happy to fire on other nignogs, imma say their heart really isn't in this riot and it'll peter out.. it's *not* happening, sorry /pol/ lol
mircea_popescu: what's next, italian gangster and italian greengrocer = "italians" ?
☟︎ mircea_popescu: and for the record, the "we only whack each other" behaviour is documented last fucking century. by... sinatra!
mircea_popescu: and even before that, by mark twain, who observed that gunslingers think nothing of killing random derps.
mircea_popescu: I remember an instance of a desperado's contempt for such small game as a private citizen's life. I was taking a late supper in a restaurant one night, with two reporters and a little printer named—Brown, for instance—any name will do. Presently a stranger with a long-tailed coat on came in, and not noticing Brown's hat, which was lying in a chair, sat down on it. Little Brown sprang up and became abusive in a mome
mircea_popescu: nt. The stranger smiled, smoothed out the hat, and offered it to Brown with profuse apologies couched in caustic sarcasm, and begged Brown not to destroy him. Brown threw off his coat and challenged the man to fight—abused him, threatened him, impeached his courage, and urged and even implored him to fight; and in the meantime the smiling stranger placed himself under our protection in mock distress. But presently he
mircea_popescu: "Very well, gentlemen, if we must fight, we must, I suppose. But don't rush into danger and then say I gave you no warning. I am more than a match for all of you when I get started. I will give you proofs, and then if my friend here still insists, I will try to accommodate him."
mircea_popescu: The table we were sitting at was about five feet long, and unusually cumbersome and heavy. He asked us to put our hands on the dishes and hold them in their places a moment—one of them was a large oval dish with a portly roast on it. Then he sat down, tilted up one end of the table, set two of the legs on his knees, took the end of the table between his teeth, took his hands away, and pulled down with his teeth till
mircea_popescu: the table came up to a level position, dishes and all! He said he could lift a keg of nails with his teeth. He picked up a common glass tumbler and bit a semi-circle out of it. Then he opened his bosom and showed us a net-work of knife and bullet scars; showed us more on his arms and face, and said he believed he had bullets enough in his body to make a pig of lead. He was armed to the teeth. He closed with the remark
mircea_popescu: "I see a lot of people complaining about the horrible stuff looters and rioters are doing in Baltimore. This is what the media wants you to see, this is the negative side. This is being shown over and over to make you forget that a man had his SPINE SEVERED in police custody. So here are 10,000 people peacefully protesting today that no one seems to be talking about."
BingoBoingo: Solid enough Baltimore PD is kinda getting raped with it.
assbot: US-Japan defense deal broadens Tokyo's role in face of growing Chinese might | US news | The Guardian ... (
http://bit.ly/1EzJ098 )
lobbes: 'Tokyo’s readiness to embrace what Abe calls “proactive pacifism” comes amid growing anxiety in Japan and across Asia over China’s rising military and economic might.'
☟︎ assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9387 @ 0.00030429 = 2.8564 BTC [+]
lobbes: !rate Blazedout419 1 small, but smooth transaction
lobbes: smooth like hand carved wood? << felt more laser-cut smooth
assbot: La communauté hipster cherche un nouveau mot pour « mainstream », jugé trop mainstream | Le Gorafi.fr Gorafi News Network ... (
http://bit.ly/1ba8ihX )
davout: today we laugh in french, because we're so sophisticated
davout: Pierre_Rochard: précisément
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24300 @ 0.00028935 = 7.0312 BTC [-] {2}
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24050 @ 0.00030129 = 7.246 BTC [+]
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 14:19:45; lobbes: 'Tokyo’s readiness to embrace what Abe calls “proactive pacifism” comes amid growing anxiety in Japan and across Asia over China’s rising military and economic might.'
pete_dushenski: japan 're-arming' calls to mind images of ninjarobot armies
ben_vulpes: pete_dushenski: didja ever read A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer?
ben_vulpes: yeah. has some hoplites and an (mircea_popescu'd like this one) army of girls
ben_vulpes: i can't speak to ghaddafi's training skills tho
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu is basically a better read, less geographically restricted, and paler Qadaffi
☟︎ assbot: Logged on 27-04-2015 21:06:25; mike_c: chetty: cool pic! kinda sad to see boxy go :)
assbot: Logged on 27-04-2015 21:04:56; williamdunne: Suits me
pete_dushenski: ben_vulpes: pretty much all of the scifi books i've read were by asimov, heinlein, clarke, and... adams.
assbot: Logged on 27-04-2015 21:30:23; mircea_popescu: i also had cherisse with maraschino cherries, but thought of ben.
ben_vulpes: cherisse is in the same food group as la cuña?
BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Well only way to judge that is the writings and Ghaddafi doesn't have a trilema.
ben_vulpes: ascii_field: the md fun anywhere near you?
davout: williamdunne: what are you even writing it for?
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: he was born in '69 to "The son of an impoverished Bedouin goat herder"
BingoBoingo: ascii_field Ah, You're about the same distance I was from Fergusson
pete_dushenski: BingoBoingo: sorry, ghadaffi was born in '42. that makes waaay more sense.
williamdunne: davout: I'm writing it because it interesting to do, and I have some ideas it could be useful for
davout: the latter part being pretty much what i'm asking
ben_vulpes: achtung, qntrites! ERR_CONNECTION_REFUSED
williamdunne: davout: Allowing people who are trusted significantly enough to carry out a contract, to sell their future earnings in return for money today. Sorta like an MPEX for people
davout: i parse that as some variant of btcjam
williamdunne: i.e I sell 40% of all my future income for xx btc today
☟︎ davout: ok, that would be a stock exchange
williamdunne: So rather than buying S.Dice it would be P.Voorhees
ben_vulpes: you can guess all you like, doesn't mean diddly.
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 13:34:26; mircea_popescu: i am old now, and not so easily entertained.
ascii_field: guess based on samples i collect personally
ascii_field: ben_vulpes: it is precisely like the spam cargo cult
ben_vulpes: you're not collecting water station samples, are you?
ben_vulpes: the water filtration station - it's not ending up in your nets.
kakobrekla: <sturles> I think I hve found the reason for the recent spike in sales. Microsoft keeps earning me money. This time their users get infected with Cryptowall 3.0. Explains the many recent purchases of about 500 USD worth in bitcoins.
mircea_popescu: it is obviously trivial to get varnish installed, and it will cache.
mircea_popescu: obviously, it will fuck up the source IP for requests. it's not obvious how to get apache to fix this.
mircea_popescu: and so here we are, AGAIN : foss is perfectly fucking useless.
mircea_popescu: it "mostly" does the job, every time. it NEVER actually does the job. not ever.
mircea_popescu: "it might be nginx, it might me mod_rpaf, it might be mod_futipemata ; some of these have been forked. the way to install them is make the whole fucking
httpd-devel mircea_popescu: because totally, that's the stack you want, 8 things long
mircea_popescu: or you could install apachebooster, which is... a wrapper on nginx and varnish, by "prajith"
mircea_popescu: who meanwhile sold it to some derp-ass host corp, that wants 9 bux a year. for what exactly ? a script ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35100 @ 0.00029973 = 10.5205 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: ascii_field the actual sad hell is not this. it is that i will solve it, and that will serve ABSOLUTELY NOBODY
mircea_popescu: supposedly THIS is why we're wasting all the money on "ip" enforcement : so that i am not in this position where i can say the above.
mircea_popescu: and i know this, incidentally, because i have meanwhile learned "vcl"
ascii_field: and of course it will serve no one else. that'd be, what, interchangeable parts, it isn't 1800 yet, not invented yet
mircea_popescu: which is a retarded domain language with consturcts like
mircea_popescu: all the boyish idiocy of "software development" needs to go die in a fire.
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: at present, no one has the fuel for this fire.
ascii_field: ignition - yes, buncha angry fellas with welding torches
mircea_popescu: dignork it's not a matter of logging it. it's a matter of, php no longer sees the source
mircea_popescu: ascii_field hopefully i get the fetlife femmes pissy enough to combust.
assbot: Installing mod_rpaf on CentOS Apache server | Managed Drupal Hosting Services on Drupal Optimized with Varnish, APC, Memcache, Apache Solr, Drush, Webmin/Virtualmin and more! ... (
http://bit.ly/1DxC8DX )
dignork: well, it's still accessible as
http header (X-Forwarded-For or similar), so it will require some minor changes to php code
mircea_popescu: random derps are willing to send you a copy. if you trust them. signatures ? wots ? wut ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17040 @ 0.00030652 = 5.2231 BTC [+] {2}
dignork: adding reverse proxy is infrastructure change, original code might have been written with such change in mind, but even if not, usally it's a minor modification
mircea_popescu: the most insulting thing is that while the wisdom seems to be "eh, change the code", there does not exist a master list where you know, all the code dependencies are nicely cross-referenced, so i can just go "fuckup-php for-the-ip-poroxy-issue"
mircea_popescu: think about it. why the fuck should the code have to know about this. and if it does have to know about this, why aren't ALL the code references affected by any of such a change cross-indexed somewhere ?
☟︎☟︎ ascii_field: mircea_popescu: there is probably enough accumulated anger of this kind among computer users for two or three classy genocides
ascii_field has, if anyone didn't know, a whole www site about this
mircea_popescu: dignork the only way you would be allowed to write code, in a world where "hey, if infrastructure changes code needs to change" is with index lists of "all lines affected by X - here" "all lines affected by Y - here"
ascii_field: but this is a mega-l0l - apache crud, etc. wake me up when someone has the resources to rewrite even something that catastrophically matters, e.g. bitcoin
mircea_popescu: i thouht it's just off you know, as i happened to look at it. but no, they have blogposts about it
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Can you not use the WordPress cacheing plugin?
dignork: mircea_popescu: you wouldn't believe amount of horribly broken code which blows up in ipv6 environment, anything from integer overflows,crashes,malfunctions to firewalls leaving your machine exposed
ascii_field: dignork: we knew. which is why i banned ipv6 in my home, and press for its permanent exclusion from therealbitcoin
ascii_field: elementarily, and all else aside, it makes naked eye analysis of lan traffic considerably more painful
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: WP Super Cache I think its called, it Caches your HTML and serves that rather than rendering on each load
mircea_popescu: how is it like varnish at all ? it's a php script neh ?
williamdunne: Maybe I'm not remembering what varnish is correctly, but it is a middleware that serves up static HTML instead of asking the server, right?
mircea_popescu: maybe i could reimplement apache in php first! then i could run varnish (reimplemented in php too) in front of it and not lose the ips.
mircea_popescu: because much like ada, brainfuck is an actually specified language
☟︎ ascii_field observes that ada uses gcc backend, but this is already known to most
williamdunne: ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.>++.
mircea_popescu: To install a custom module, perform the following steps on the command line as the root user:
mircea_popescu: Download the custom module archive file to your computer.
mircea_popescu: With your preferred file transfer method, upload the custom module's archive file to your server's /var/cpanel/easy/apache/custom_opt_mods/ directory.
davout: mircea_popescu: i haven't been using apache for a long long while, but maybe mod_remoteip does what you want, override the source IP by some IP it finds in an HTTP header
mircea_popescu: among the changes from 2.2 to 2.4 (current) ? alf will appreciate this
mircea_popescu: Apache 2.4 uses a dynamic modular structure by default. This potentially can cause problems if a LoadModule directive calls a module that was not built into the Apache binary.
mircea_popescu: EasyApache overrides Apache 2.4's default settings and builds modules statically to provide backward compatibility.
williamdunne: Is it possible to just search through your code and edit all header["ip_address"] to header["remote_ip"]?
davout: i don't get how the structure can be "dynamic modular" and then "cause problems" when stuff isn't built right into apache
davout: and wrt to the reference index thing, it's kind of weird that the same stuff would be defined at multiple places anyway
davout: unless coding is done with Ctrl+C, Ctrl+V
mircea_popescu: If you are running Apache 2.2, you can thank Takashi Takizawa for backporting mod_remoteip for Apache 2.2.X servers and posting it on his GitHub as mod_remoteip_
httpd22. mircea_popescu: so what's the wot vote, do i thank " Takashi Takizawa" for his work and download random code offa da github ?
davout: patch can't be that large to review
mircea_popescu: yeah, i am looking forward to reviewing random code for free.
mircea_popescu: incidentally, this is what the stack of shit is built on. "oh, little step X can't be too hard"
williamdunne: What difference would it make if he had signed it? Its not like you know the guy enough to trust him
mircea_popescu: moreover, if i do know some guys who trust him, the cost of obtaining a new Takashi Takizawa is not equal to s/Takashi Takizawa/Takashi Takizawa/
mircea_popescu: 448 lines. i am not happy with a dollar a line. not that i'm getting paid or anything.
davout: yeah well, either you code due diligence or you don't, up to you, never mentioned anything about "reviewing random code for free"
mircea_popescu: "there's free as in beer, free as in freedom, and free as in your time has no value"
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: one way to look at it is that division of labour never really happened in computing. to the useful point where you can actually safely hand something off to a pro. instead, we're all in a situation not unlike that ru doctor in the polar expedition who had to self-appendectomy
mircea_popescu: the other way to look at this is that everyone involved in computer software should be sent back to third grade
pete_dushenski: ascii_field: or that zany dentist who did her own root canals.
mircea_popescu: now back to the issue : the "backported" thing compiles. apache has no care in the world.
davout: williamdunne: thought a bit about your project, sounds like a degenerate case of a stock exchange actually
Adlai: this is also why the only sane approach to programming depends upon homoiconicity... there's simply too much code for a single human to type by hand
williamdunne: davout: Not sure why it would be degenerate, but yes. Very similar.
davout: williamdunne: because if your work consists of projects X, Y, and Z you can decide to raise capital separately for each of them separately on a stock exchange, not only as "here's me, throw money at me"
williamdunne: If you believe that someone has the potential to do something great, but do not know how many attempts it may take them to do so, it allows you to bet on their success rather than the success of the current project
davout: in this case a stock market would have the advantage of making shitty stuff fail earlier
williamdunne: I'm hoping it just increases the velocity, so shitty stuff fails sooner and good stuff succeeds sooner
davout: "i didn't even get to try projects X and Y because the market told me it was retarded", on the other hand Z was pretty successful"
williamdunne: X Y and Z have a number of other metrics you can use to attain success i.e revenue growth
davout: what other metric than money did you have in mind?
ascii_field: wake me up when there is actually the money floating around to give anything serious at all its minimal take-off velocity.
ascii_field: (to a first approximation, afaik, there isn't)
williamdunne: davout: Growth of userbase etc, its not meant to be a sure-fire bet to make money
williamdunne: Its also more restrictive, as its not restricted to projects. i.e a student could use it if doing some sort of professional degree
williamdunne: Really the idea is just making it possible to invest in people rather than things
williamdunne: Although your issue could somewhat solved by allowing shareholders to allocate what money goes where
ascii_field: williamdunne: it is already possible. pick your favourite people and give $1m to each, in unmarked benjies.
davout: that's kind of a basic mistake here, assuming you can invest in things, if I buy a bitcoin asset I'm really investing in the people running it, not in some ethereal abstract "thing"
davout: williamdunne: shareholders being able to allocate "what money goes where" is pretty much a stock market
williamdunne: davout: If I believe paymium will possibly fail, but that you're going do something great in the future, I would be better off investing in you than paymium
☟︎ williamdunne: davout: Basically its no longer a bet on whether or not the project is retarded, but whether or not you're retarded
davout: mircea_popescu: good good, let the broken
http requests flow through you
davout: williamdunne: my main point is that this is already what you're doing when buying a BTC-denominated asset that's run by someone and that your idea removes more value than what it adds to the stock exchange value proposition
davout: but hey, at the end of the day you're the one doing the work!
williamdunne: davout: well it wouldn't be BTC denominated, but yeah. While it certainly removes some things, its not targeted at people who would need those things
lobbes: <williamdunne> ... If I believe paymium will possibly fail, but that you're going do something great in the future, I would be better off investing in you than paymium << In this case, wouldn't you just wait until he creates the project you think -will- succeed and invest in that?
williamdunne: lobbes: Potentially so, although of course that assumes that you have the capacity to do so, and he has the capitulation to get to that point
davout: ascii_field: looks like my french-ness shows even through IRC
davout: williamdunne: you're not making sense
mircea_popescu: someone be so kind to leave a comment on trilema so i see if teh ip is alright ?
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22065 @ 0.00029325 = 6.4706 BTC [-]
mircea_popescu: please everyone do report any bullshit coming from trilema!
mircea_popescu: jurov how do i contribute signed non-bitcoin code to the great codex ?
davout: williamdunne: you must be new here
jurov: would make sense to have a new mailing list for nonbtc stuff
williamdunne: mircea_popescu: Still getting; "Looks like you tried to comment off a stale page. Reload the article, count to three and try again."
jurov: "Server: - Varnished by MP" lol
jurov: should i make such list? and on therealbitcoin or some other domain?
Adlai envisions 'wothub' as a content-addressable signed patchstore
Adlai: so build it trinque !
Adlai: stop waiting for other people to take initiative
trinque: if I find the time maybe I will
trinque: not committing to it while I can't guarantee I'll execute
Adlai waits for trinque to take initiative
williamdunne not sure what is wrong with using github with pgp signatures
trinque: williamdunne: enemy territory
trinque: it should be hosted in-wot
williamdunne: What difference does it make if you have local backups and its all signed?
williamdunne: Not like they can modify the code or take it from you, just delete it from their servers
trinque: why have factories in the US when China will produce everything for us cheaper?
trinque: it's a matter of growing infrastructure
Pierre_Rochard: why not both? mirror on github, run your own git server
davout: while github is not an option i'm with williamdunne here, git is nice and having a foundation-operated git server would be a good thing imo
Pierre_Rochard: it’s ssh friendly, send your ssh pubkey signed with your gpg key
☟︎ williamdunne: You can store anything on git, so nothing stopping you from attaching signatures
davout: mircea_popescu: i think you can sign commits, also it can't really be less gpg-friendly than throwing tarballs around
Adlai: fwiw, darcs is much more friendly to the "signed patch" model of modification; git is better for 'signed code'; and neither are perfect
Adlai: (git only lets you sign merkle roots of the source code, rather than diffs)
mats: git and github is not so great
Adlai: although... signed roots are kinda what you want
Adlai: mats: what's wrong with git itself?
davout: Adlai: "In more recent versions of Git (v1.7.9 and above), you can now also sign individual commits."
mats: overengineered, cvs is often good enough
trinque: branching is good, merging is good
davout: Adlai: c-c-c-combo breaker
Adlai: mats: shirley you're joking
trinque: having one goddamn tower that can get skullfucked by orcs is bad
Adlai: davout: the "sign commits" feature still essentially consists of signing a merkle root of the source tree; darks lets you sign the patch
trinque: prudent I think to discuss which DVCS to use
Adlai: there's stuff to be said for either side... tbh, it seems like signing merkle roots is what yall want
davout: Adlai: well, from what i understand of the docs, you can sign -individual commits- which is a new feature because originally it could only do what you say
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53300 @ 0.00030083 = 16.0342 BTC [+] {3}
davout: now, how you verify them, and how you enforce mandatory signature is something else
Adlai: davout: an "individual commit" is still just a hash of the commit message + merkle root of the source tree
trinque: davout: sounds like fancy hooks
Adlai: so, it's less convenient for signing a patch relative to an upstream repo; but is exactly what you want if you just want to have a single head to put on a stake when heardbleed 2.0 gets uncovered
☟︎ davout: trinque: that's one thing, the other is: whenever i pull i want to verify it independently
Adlai: so you either want darcs with every single patch signed, or git
davout: Adlai: you're probably right, i think the difference isn't that important though, the point of the wot is to make an identity valuable
Adlai: git has the advantage of a single signature covering the entire current state; darcs has the advantage of letting a single signature cover changes alone. it's really a question of use case
Adlai: the real problem is technophobia, "I trust nothing other than butterflies and sed"
Adlai: ... but whence the sed binary?
davout: they're functionally equivalent, but i guess that if darcs is a better fit, why not
Adlai: they're not! the darcs model would've let mircea_popescu submit a single fix to apache, whereas the git model requires him to sign the entire apache source tree
davout: Adlai: they're functionnaly equivalent, not identical, the functionality in this case being the identification of the head to chop off
Adlai: either approach lets you determine which fingers inserted which code
williamdunne: davout: How is that different to git? You can blame individual lines of coding using git
davout: Adlai: that's exactly my point
ascii_field: git is pernicious for safety-critical code because it - however slightly - reduces the expectation that every line of diff is attentively read
ascii_field: i do -not- want nonhumanreadable state in source.
Adlai: what's 'nonhumanreadable'?
davout: ascii_field: is a tarball human readable?
trinque: gits data model is... lemme see if I can remember; it's been a while since I wrote a postgresql fdw into it
trinque: commit points to other commits and a tree, tree points to tree entries, which point to blobs
davout: williamdunne: whiskey tango foxtrot
trinque: all things are blobs, even the aforementioned
trinque: then you have the tool atop that data model which yes, has all kinds of bullshit
trinque: but the data model itself is easily understood
trinque: and inspectable by human eyes
Adlai: trinque: darcs is even simpler, but has the disadvantage (which was previously mentioned as an advantage!) of allowing people to submit changes which cause malicious behavior when combined with previously-signed changes
davout: williamdunne: look what's your point here? that one can git-blame?
davout: williamdunne: everybody fucking knows that
☟︎ Adlai: williamdunne: the problem here is more one of convincing ascii_field that there exists trustworthyness outside of his own skull
trinque: so the process of establishing trust should be human and involve eyes
trinque: the process of managing a bunch of feature branches and shit, I want a tool
trinque: doing that manually doesn't make me smarter.
Adlai: signed tarballs are still corruptible, if your tar (or gpg) binary is diddled
Adlai: really this is all masturbation until we have a by-hand constructible fab
☟︎ trinque: !rate dickhead -10 committed 1000 lines of god knows what
assbot: dickhead is not registered in WoT.
Adlai dogwalks and drinks away the shittiness of modern computing
davout: ascii_field: would you have no problem with a tool that you can bypass, and build the source with the actual signed commits ?
Adlai: sorry, not just regular old wanking - *competitive* masturbation
davout: according to Adlai it isn't really practical to do with git, however, if darcs can output actual clearsigned diffs that would allow one to re-construct the same source tree by hand and check the sigs manually
ascii_field: davout: but that git etc make adding crud easy
Adlai: davout: it's doable with git, although requires numerous calls to sha256sum and building 'ls' output by hand
Adlai: darcs is much easier to reproduce by hand, since it's JUST applying signed patches
trinque: ascii_field: doesn't this apply to the use of power tools?
trinque: shouldn't use them because an idiot will just end up without an arm?
davout: ascii_field: i'm with trinque here, it's a social problem, not to be solved by tools
Adlai: trinque: this applies to the use of silicon that you didn't forge yourself
Adlai: ascii_field is just choosing to trust intel/amd/etc
trinque: right, I can guarantee at least that I have no qualms screaming at a person that's done wrong
ascii_field: Adlai: it is a mistake to conclude that i trust
Adlai: well, we're choosig a point at which we give up on paranoia as overly hampering
Adlai: and arguing over where exactly that point is
ascii_field: notice that you -can- use git etc personally, no prob
ascii_field: but this is not what git aficionados want. they expect -me- to use it if i want to participate
ascii_field: and to have the canonical representation of the project be a git turd
trinque: well, the social experiment would be instructive, would it not?
Adlai is making too many typos to continue participating in the discourse
ascii_field: trinque: go 'experiment' with boeing's avionics code
Adlai: last thought: a signed-patch-dev mailing list, and some trivial darcs wrapper that consumes attachments from that mailing list to frob any random repository, whether git, darks, or - for mats's's benefit - cvs. left as an exercise to the reader.
ascii_field: will be an interesting social experiment, yes
trinque: ascii_field: if people cannot be brought to obey processes, how can any group activity ever occur?
Adlai: note that darcs does NOTHING beyond 'patch -p1 < thingy'
Adlai: it needs to be written first :)
ascii_field: wtf is so hard to understand re: 'the canonical representation of the project must be human-readable' ?
trinque: it should be noted that ascii_field's profession as I understand it is knowing how attacks occur
trinque: and "speed" of development should not be a value
☟︎ ascii_field: trinque: it is a mistake to conclude that i am bringing deep wisdom from some 'respectable society' profession here. i am deliberately and profanely pissing on 'best practices'
trinque: ascii_field: seems you should write up what you think is an appropriate process for maintaining a "mainline" branch
trinque: ascii_field: I am referring to you, not an industry
ascii_field: why? because we have a little problem with vermin, in computing
ascii_field: and the only solution, at this point, is neutron bomb
ascii_field: i don't have the neutron bomb yet. so we're stuck with flamethrowers
davout: ascii_field: i hear your points
ascii_field: but even so, anyone who wants - davout, trinque, et al - can use favourite versioncontrolsystem at home
trinque: ascii_field: I would be pleased with a process that allowed for that, but that there is only one route to "released"
trinque: and think you're on the money re: how that should operate
ascii_field: i mean, when you write own contributions, you can generate them however you like
trinque: sure, I see room for collaborating on feature branches though
ascii_field: incidentally, for readers unfamiliar with the overall thread, the project under discussion - therealbitcoin - does not belong to me. it is run by ben_vulpes and mod6. who appear to agree with my position here.
trinque: ben_vulpes uses git in his day to day work, and I'm sure for a reason
trinque: or if not that some other dvcs
ascii_field: it is worth repeating precisely -why- i specified 'unix patches' to be the canonical representations
williamdunne: Maybe there is a good reason why this would not work, but could you not just generate an XML file that contains the names of all the files, a hash of each file, and then sign the XML? Could be automated fairly easily and would work on top of existing solutions
☟︎ ascii_field: the ultimate product is to be a series of -human-auditable- diffs, each small and extremely narrowly focused, starting from classical bitcoind 0.5.3.
williamdunne: trinque: some sort of record of the files and shasums then
trinque: williamdunne: this is what the tree in git already is
trinque: pile of hashes and blobs they refer to
ascii_field: it is how i specified a de-crufted subset of 0.5.3's files on day 1
ascii_field: (diff does not offer a simple way to say 'deleted whole file')
ascii_field: trinque: my opposition to git et al as canonical representations is because they have -any- 'behind the scenes' components.
trinque: I agree 100% that "canonical" as the outside world is made to see it should not be a git repo
trinque: and understand your rationale
trinque: I think hackers here would just like to collaborate via something other than email
trinque: it's a shitty interface and I'm not dealing with it
trinque: doesn't make me feel smart to pluck a patch from an email attachment
ascii_field: trinque: no, it does not. because there is no hidden state.
trinque: I don't agree with "hidden" re: the state of git
trinque: but then I've been all through the internals of it
ascii_field: and more importantly, wtf should i have to care
trinque: database of hashes and binary wads
trinque: it's just a key value store
ascii_field: and before long folks will want forking/branching
trinque: this is sensible, sometimes work begins on a feature that's later abandoned
ascii_field: and then comes the use of central server, and of ssl
trinque: git solves this problem, and I can even email you a patch directly out of git
ascii_field: trinque: how is branching not hidden state ?
trinque: explain to me what is hidden
ascii_field: i can't pipe a branched repo to a line printer
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 16:23:44; BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu is basically a better read, less geographically restricted, and paler Qadaffi
davout: if darcs is able to output clearsigned unix patches i really don't see a reason not to use it, we can still review small individual units of work, and ascii_field's patches integrate gracefully
ascii_field: use it, so long as i don't have to know anything about it
trinque: to the extent that we do it right ascii_field should not have to care
mircea_popescu: in other news, noiw im getting shit like Host: H\x92_\x02 in the logs.
ascii_field: trinque: and if any of you produce a 100kB patch, and i barf on general principle and refuse to have anything more to do with project, don't say i didn't warn that vcs is harmful.
davout: trinque: "to the extent that we do it right ascii_field should not have to care" <<< that should be the criteria
ascii_field: for the record, i use all kinds of odd tools internally
ascii_field: but would never expect other folks to take that kind of radiation damage
davout: ascii_field: that's what's being said, it's a good tool if ascii_field doesn't know about it :D
ascii_field: when i suddenly am expected to care what's in some xml turd, or expose a box to the net just to fetch changes, or similar atrocities - i reach for barf bag
trinque: I promise to barf myself if XML creeps in
davout: ascii_field: i have some "Air France" branded ones if you're into sophisticated barfing
ascii_field: davout: i took an 'aerolinas argentinas' bag home
mircea_popescu: "expose a box to the net just to fetch changes" << what, you want it to divine the changes ?
mod6: <+ascii_field> ... it is run by ben_vulpes and mod6. who appear to agree with my position here. << yup.
trinque: ascii_field: if there were even something which made the relationships between patches data, I would be satisfied.
trinque: that's really *all* I want
BingoBoingo: <ascii_field> and the only solution, at this point, is neutron bomb << Better make sure your z-weighted sheilding is completely cobalt free...
trinque: ok, this is how I get to the point where I can work on feature X
trinque: this is how I build out to current release
trinque: the mailing list is a shitty version of this
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31300 @ 0.0003015 = 9.437 BTC [+] {2}
trinque: seems like an ID of a patch would obviously be some hash of it
trinque: so then just a tree of IDs
trinque: to synthesize one point from that pile, I want the computer to strongly enforce relationships for me, not to mindlessly build because I'm too lazy
jurov: trinque, it uses SHA1 as ID
jurov: no, btc-dev mailinglist it even renames the recognized signed attachemnts so
trinque: so where's the tree of hashes that tells me what builds towards the release
trinque: structured data is pretty cool.
jurov: if you can propose some format for this accepted by stakeholder like alf, you're welcome
jurov: it's shell scripts atm
trinque: just thinking through it; I have no need to change nor authority to change a process that works for them
ascii_field: i'd be open to a purely gnumake-based thing instead of the sh
☟︎ cazalla: so Warrick County got back to me regarding the ransomware (in comic sans no less)
cazalla: qntra/trilema down here so can't update :\
☟︎ BingoBoingo: cazalla: Qntra was up for me until you said that, Wonder what MP is coding or building nao...
jurov: adding moar exploits to apache
cazalla:
http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-04-2015#1113823 <<< but the grocer isn't engaged in things similar to the mafioso such as robbing other businesses, so i don't see how the analogy fits.. if ya gonna throw rocks, steal beauty products and impede mr fireman's ability to put out fires by cutting hoses, why not open up on them too?
☝︎ assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 13:51:08; mircea_popescu: what's next, italian gangster and italian greengrocer = "italians" ?
jurov: the greengrocer prolly caused mass development of explosive gases
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 16:33:22; williamdunne: i.e I sell 40% of all my future income for xx btc today
mircea_popescu: this was kinda popular with "artists" thinking themsleves above prostitution on myfreecams and etsy.
williamdunne: That exact problem could exist with regular stocks. Whats the incentive for Exxon to keep generating revenue? Start up, sell out, cash out, bro down
williamdunne: Yeah, don't let them sell 500% of their income
williamdunne: The operator, its not like they're selling 40% of £40,000/year, they're selling 40% of whatever they make, with no guarantees of said figure
trinque: why invest in workers when you can invest in the businesses that own them?
mike_c: this HYIP sounds awesome. put me down for 500% of it.
williamdunne: trinque: Because people live on a different timeperiod to the company in many cases
trinque: eh that's just shitty businesses
mircea_popescu: im not sure you understand the difference between natural and constructive persons
jurov: why can't you just get normal loan?
mircea_popescu: EVERY human looking to sell his future is into smoking dope.
trinque: no that's it; the more you're willing to sell your future the higher risk "investment" you are
williamdunne: Indeed, I'm not talking bout some sort of service where 100 people deposit money and then a "money manager" decides who to invest in
williamdunne: The entire point is its meant to be risky as shit
mike_c: mircea_popescu: you could install nginx and not install varnish. it will cache shit quite nicely
williamdunne: Its not really a unique idea though, been done twice as far as I can tell. Both started in US but had obvious legal issues come up
jurov: oh it has been done many millions of times
jurov: like, parents invest into you nd then expect to get a "reasonable" part of your income
williamdunne: I mean the platform, not the general idea of selling future income
mircea_popescu: mike_c yeah, im a day wasted in here. i could waste another one. sure.
jurov: williamdunne: so why do you want to undergo this, when most everyone hates it?
williamdunne: jurov: Did quite well on the other platforms until the SEC stepped in, not particularly large time investment needs to be made.
trinque: jurov: sounds like someone who doesn't deserve a loan begging with "no dude, I'll like, do anything, man!"
trinque: the recourse for that person is to go find someone for whom to tape boxes shut
trinque: not to be handed more money to waste
jurov: williamdunne: that's not answer to "why"
trinque: aside from the foolishness of this from an investment perspective, it's not helping the guy any
jurov: trinque: ikr. but want to see the thought process why it supposedly beats other alternatives
trinque: on the other side sure, if you've got goons (read: massive govt) to beat payment out of people, loan sharking is great
williamdunne: jurov: "Because potentially it could make money, its an excuse to learn more tech, and there is little risk in terms of what I could lose by doing it"
mircea_popescu: ok, so the sad story of my wasted day : first, instlaled varnish in 10 minutes, but then spent 4 hours trying to get ip forwarding.
mircea_popescu: finally found a way to do that. EXCEPT it injects random data at random intervals, i end up with "ips" like "8�b]"
mircea_popescu: lesson learned ... do not try to actually use software.
mike_c: nginx always works. I have never been disappointed in it. Recommending shit to people is always a -EV process, but..
☟︎ mircea_popescu: it would have been cheaper to buy a server. if i were to bill 8 hours it'd be enough to buy a fucking rack, and that's for doing stuff i actually like doing.
jurov: haven't i wrote somewhere that every productive day ends with patch or bugreport?
jurov: and i don't enjoy that, too. but such is life.
assbot: Self-compiled Seafile fileserver does not respond, web downloads hang · Issue #1119 · haiwen/seafile · GitHub ... (
http://bit.ly/1J73jKJ )
jurov: there's this saying about inspiration and perspiration, you know
mircea_popescu: jurov dude, come on, it's ridiculous. imagine if cars worked like software works.
jurov: oh, they did, until very recently
mircea_popescu: "sorry honey, can't come to dinner, i'm apparently unable to find the entry to the brooklyn bridge today"
mircea_popescu: "yes i know five billion people found it before. and yet..."
mircea_popescu: "musta been a different car - and - gasoline combination i guess. going back (on foot) to gas station trying some more combos"
trinque: the changes which resulted in the present state should be data
trinque: this in any computer system worth a shit
mircea_popescu: and cars NEVER worked like software works, outside of a laurel and ollie short
trinque: unix's "everything is a file" is a poor man's "everything is data"
☟︎ jurov: i have 14y old daewoo, we can split "never ever" hairs but the end result and frustration is the same
mircea_popescu: see jurov, the thing is... i have the OPTION to not own obscure exotic cars whose maker went out of business shortly after starting because he sucked.
mircea_popescu: there ISNT a bmw here. it's varnish or nginx. that's it. not like i'm running unheard-of-software
jurov: and you can not have trilema running on php
jurov: you have your own dc last i remember
trinque: this is why I'd like a small board for the embedded space that does very little, and runs a lisp
ascii_field is still wondering how mircea_popescu can use that cthonian horror, cpanel
mircea_popescu: the fact that i own a gas station does in no way alleviate the problem that laurel&hardy cars.
trinque: taking on the whole goddamn space is an enormous challenge to say the least
ascii_field: ok i'll bite. how do i remove apache and get nginx
ascii_field: i was even about to use the apache (all i need is to proxy to my proggy which has own
http stack) but then i find that there is no /etc/apache2
ascii_field: and that the motherfucking cpanel thing puts it fuck knows where
jurov: i have everything built as nginx OR apache(never both of them) in extra process, PHP/Perl/Python in extra process(es)
trinque: every bakery should have their own software team because no real scotsman would pay someone else to do that
trinque: the lack of a turnkey solution here is absurd, just a shitty industry
jurov: nothing like mod_php monstrosities
ascii_field: *why* is it not in the standard location ?
ascii_field: what kind of dope had to be taken, to conceive of this ?
trinque: why is the standard location not enforced?
jurov: or it was redhat, dunno
trinque will yet have to be persuaded that the relational model does not solve all this
trinque: system state should be a database, if a simple and perhaps even plaintext one
trinque: "hm I didn't like that change I made to the system" << rollback
trinque: "config file is munged" << schema
jurov: trunque use btrfs?
trinque: jurov: getting closer yeah
trinque: but it has to know data structure and barf when it's not followed
trinque: it needs a reflection system; I want to interrogate the system about its structure
trinque: I want to be able to declare into that representation of structure new structures
trinque: in the same way I declare data
trinque: we were trying to build this at my last job, and fucked it up entirely with braindead concepts from the web space
trinque: the answer is probably not for example "build all into postgres" as we were doing
jurov: trinque you need omniprescient entity that declares forever usable schema
mircea_popescu: ascii_field but while we're doing the "what dope" thing, why the fuck is apache "apache2"
trinque: yeah, so you need to be able to change structure easily
jurov: every schema-based system ended up with bags of backward compatibility
trinque: views and actions against the reflection layer
williamdunne: Guessing some people wanted to kick it old school and not move to the re-write, and there was enough of them that apache updated got called apache2, but thats just a guess
mircea_popescu: it requires a hard guarantee you will never want more than 10 categories at any level.
mircea_popescu: williamdunne it's exactly what it iwas, and exactly why i asked him the question.
trinque: relational algebra is the best model I'm aware of for deriving all needed representations of data
trinque: and you can easily with something that isn't braindead SQL imagine a model where the canonical representation can be changed, and new views derived from the operation taken to produce the new representation
trinque: so operations against the system must also be data
jurov: how will views solve that in version 1 you have a name=value and in version 2 you need list?
trinque: jurov: I cannot see how it *doesn't* solve that
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> it requires a hard guarantee you will never want more than 10 categories at any level. << No, only on the top level... After that you wade into the horror of Cutter numbers
ascii_field is blithering at the sheer amount of litter that cpanel leaves in every conceivable aspect of system
trinque: postgresql can easily produce an array from columns in rows
ascii_field: there's perhaps half a meg of generated 'do not edit!!!111!!!' crapolade in every config
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Kludgy and bolted on to original spec
trinque: I can also easily produce a new table which materializes the output of some view
trinque: I can then delete the base table and call the new materialized table the canonical data
trinque: the point here is missed; I'm probably not articulating it well
trinque: sure, last weekend was eaten by work, but I'll try to work it in soon
trinque: mircea_popescu: what I was referring to above is like the system catalog in SQL
trinque: lets say you alter a table with some operation; were that operation data, you could programmatically alter views against the old version to be compatible with the new, to some extent
trinque: obviously if information was lost in the change, you cannot
trinque: but if the AST of the queries is represented as data you can find that out by joining it against the schema
mircea_popescu: you're slowly rebuidling hoon here or w/e it was called.
jurov: also, KDE folks tried it in non-relational way, something kinda works but they managed to annoy everyone in the process
jurov: go learn from these mistakes
trinque: the mistake was probably "non-relational
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4877 @ 0.00030165 = 1.4711 BTC [+]
trinque: relational algebra carries the stink of SQL, and this is unfortunate
jurov: and what was WinFS mistake?
trinque: I have to run, dunno what hoon is but I'll see if I can find info on it
☟︎ trinque: jurov: calm down buddy; I don't have the one true way
trinque: dunno enough about winfs to say
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 20:28:40; williamdunne: Maybe there is a good reason why this would not work, but could you not just generate an XML file that contains the names of all the files, a hash of each file, and then sign the XML? Could be automated fairly easily and would work on top of existing solutions
Adlai: tl;r: /me needs to write a thingy that munges btc-dev into a darcs repo, jurov needs to add a general-dev mailing list so mircea_popescu can send his apache paches, and we'll all live ethanolly ever after. ssavvy?
mircea_popescu: it was going to be a signed version of 448 lines of code
Adlai: ok, you sign some other dude's patch. same diff
jurov: he can publish it on trilema, too. don't see how bag of disparate patches would be useful
Adlai: because infrastructure!
mircea_popescu: this is a problem which will have to be solved, eventually. maybe not by us, maybe not in our lifetimes,
Adlai actually spend the alcohols chatting with a dark-skinned lady who was 100% coherent despite also partaking of alcohols
Adlai: so, there is hope for the oppressed-in-tech yet!
Adlai: the typos resurface thus zzz
jurov: you mean, she exhibits ballmer peak, thus suitable for tech?
Adlai: no she exhibited sentient concern for third party (my dog) while verifiably drunk
Adlai: she was all "this is not a good place for a dog" and i was all "bullshit my dog loves this bar because it's EV patron loves dogs and my dog is lovable"
jurov: and when she was sober, there was no dog concern?
Adlai has never met her sober, he's home alone now, aside from dog
trinque: obvious "brought home the wrong bitch" joke there
Adlai: stfu my dog is a mutt
jurov: trinque you were supposed to run, not concern yourself with bitches
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: how -the fuck- does one run a python www proggy on cpanel box
ascii_field: or for that matter anything other than pgp
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: apache won't play along with python without a plugin 'mod_wsgi' which does not appear to exist in cpanel
ascii_field: and cannot be retrofitted without being clobbered by cpanel the next time it is used to make any alteration
Adlai: (it took a couple tries)
mircea_popescu: then insert the resulting so into the apache config prepended lists
Adlai still doesn't understand why people are fuxing with patchy crap
Adlai: why not run a real webserver?
ascii_field: gcc: mod_wsgi.c: No such file or directory
mircea_popescu: ascii_field obviously you have to first download the mod.
ascii_field: betcha it was 'lost' as soon as i logged into cpanel
Adlai: or once you installed it
Adlai: or did the install not involve running anything?
ascii_field: this box is running ten thousand tonnes of extraneous cpanelism
Adlai: logged into cpanel as root ?!@ << asif you need root to fandango
Adlai channels vonnegut: "To avoid root, just wait for ree boot"
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: the apxs ... thing fails with wsgi_python.h:24:20: error: Python.h: No such file or directory and half a meg of other crapolade
ascii_field: mircea_popescu: please consider supplying a normal machine.
jurov: btw, if a bit lucky, mod_fastcgi was shipped and it's more widely supported than wsgi
ascii_field: because this borders on the utterly ridiculous.
Adlai: "wsgi" sounds awfully like "usagi" when said out loud
ben_vulpes: <trinque> not committing to it while I can't guarantee I'll execute << not worth it imho, leave it for someone like williamdunne
ben_vulpes: <mats> overengineered, cvs is often good enough << haha nice try winbro
williamdunne: !s not committing to it while I can't guarantee I'll execute
jurov: benjy just needed to vent some steam
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00030489 = 3.4757 BTC [+]
williamdunne: "Adlai envisions 'wothub' as a content-addressable signed patchstore" well its doable, but I only have 'x' amount of time
trinque: the idea needs further development before anyone executes
trinque: may end up comprised entirely of local tooling
williamdunne: Yeah, I've not done much when it comes to native applications so anything client-side isn't really my boat
jurov: i don't get it. "by content addressable" i understand somthing like putting sha1 sum in the URL
jurov: and what is "patchstore" supposed to to what "store" is not
williamdunne still doesn't understand whats wrong with git and pgp sigs
ben_vulpes: williamdunne: git makes it easy to pretend to work on a codebase by reindenting things
ben_vulpes: makes large merges too easy, is at least one of asciilifeform's objections
ben_vulpes: makes it less likely for people to review changes.
jurov: and i think other was that git stores them in opaque database. you cannot go to .git and start reading
trinque: the earlier thread I think well represented the lay of the land
trinque: having the canonical representation plaintext and readable I think is a fine thing
mats: ben_vulpes: windows for fun and profit
trinque: having history machine readable and enforced is I think also a fine thing
trinque: from there, perhaps no existing tool satisfies both
jurov: i don't remember anything about enforcing history
trinque: git may be several conflated problems
trinque: jurov: I remember saying it.
ben_vulpes: <jurov> benjy just needed to vent some steam << naw i just wanted to restart an ancient thread
jurov: anyway, primary is there's verifiable autorship and readable content of patches, plus clear repeatable way to combine the patches
williamdunne: One of those is a social issue, the other is solved by not accepting pulls from dickheads, no?
trinque: jurov: indeed, that last bit is what I've been harping on
jurov: triuque yes, but it does not necessarily equal to managing history
williamdunne: ben_vulpes: I don't know if this exists outside of GitHub (I rather assumed it does) but when you fork a repo so its your own version of it, you make changes to your own copy and then request that your changes are merged into the core repo
mircea_popescu: <trinque> the idea needs further development before anyone executes << he has a point, and while attempted executions would prlly be useful iterations, it IS a timesink.
ben_vulpes: no, that's the point i wish to make. you're conflating github with git.
ben_vulpes: and i'm not even an expert on the finer points of the vcexen in the wild.
mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes i suspect in this sense git may be TOO easy to use. at least in some aspects.
ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: dude i guarantee you that git is too easy to use.
ben_vulpes: not only for mission-critical shit like therealbitcoin, but even my own work.
Adlai: jurov: actually, you can go to .git and start reading to a much larger degree than you can do so for .darcs; git provides a provably-attributable signed directory (ie, signed file hierarchy), whereas darcs is a signed diff from... whatever th efuck came before it
jurov: yes, linus t. pulls changes from email, not using github
trinque: this idea that the tool controls the user's behavior is absurd
trinque: maybe when dealing with children
trinque: this is a distinct point from advocating git
trinque: the tool does not drive the fucking user
mircea_popescu: <trinque> the tool does not drive the fucking user << o really.
Adlai: williamdunne: the problem is that git doesn't provide human-verifiable provenance
Adlai: (whereas darcs does, but it has its own clusterfuck of troubles)
trinque: mircea_popescu: when holding my gun should I wear an arm brace such that I am prevented from blowing my brains out?
mircea_popescu: the angle being discussed is : give a man a hammer, suddenly he's looking for nails.
trinque: but should a hammer be called for, one limited such that it cannot be weaponized will also be gimped for hammering
Adlai concludes that he should a) write the btc-dev-darcs-wrapper, and b) keep it to himself, so other people have to write their own
trinque: ^ I don't like that for the record; let every man forge his own AK
trinque: surely there's a balance to be struck.
Adlai: AKs are fucking simple
trinque: alright, you forge one while I'm loading
Adlai: no offense but have you ever fired an assault rifle?
mircea_popescu: Adlai how about b) and make it good enough so its effect upon the world is to make more people of the like adlai can stand
Adlai: mircea_popescu: aiui, anything that does not consist of 'cat | /dev/eip' is not good enough
mircea_popescu: there is such a thing as tools that make people smarter.
trinque: Adlai | no offense but have you ever fired an assault rifle? << this is in no way relevant to what I said
trinque: and an automatic no, rifles yes
Adlai: rifles are for hunters. war is not a hunt, it is war
trinque: obviously, and so you're going to have every soldier cast the metal for his own gun?
trinque: if you have time for that, great; must not be much of a war
jurov: since git nor darcs will solve the conflicts... ou propose using the AKs?
trinque: mircea_popescu: must've missed that
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 18:43:52; williamdunne: davout: If I believe paymium will possibly fail, but that you're going do something great in the future, I would be better off investing in you than paymium
mircea_popescu: all the derpy parents that "invest" in their children are making a stylistic choice of words, nothing more. it's a waste not an investment.
williamdunne: At what point does expenditure become investment?
williamdunne: If you expect expenditure to result in a return?
ben_vulpes: this return cannot be "happiness" or any such.
mircea_popescu: does your expenditure CAUSE the return ? is it merely coincidental with the return ? is it merely halucinatorily related ?
ben_vulpes: much as the girlies would like to "invest in their quality of life", such is just purchasing a big of hedonism.
trinque: ben_vulpes: oh have I had that conversation
ben_vulpes: except for those guys whose lunch we eat and girls we fuck
BingoBoingo: <trinque> obviously, and so you're going to have every soldier cast the metal for his own gun? << Unreasonabru, but Officers outfitting their soldiers to the Officer's chosen spec has ample historical precedent
mircea_popescu: williamdunne let's go through this, it will be instructive. so, case III, halucinatorily related.
mircea_popescu: guy pays fortune teller for good stuff in the future. good stuff happens in the future.
mircea_popescu: the relation between the "investment" and the "return" is purely hallucinated.
mircea_popescu: case II : coincidental. guy buys lottery ticket. someone wins the lottery.
mircea_popescu: while it's true that the somebody who wins might even be the guy, the fact remains that someone'd win whether the guy bought or didn't buy ticket.
mircea_popescu: same thing with "investing in children". sure, you send schmuck to college, and someone 20 years later is going to be well educated.
mircea_popescu: case I : causal. this satisfies both implication : with investment there NECESSARILY exists return ; without investment there NECESSARILY doesn't exist return.
mircea_popescu: like, guy going to homestead in 1800s utah. if he goes, there's going to be his homestead. if he doesn't go... there isn't going to be.
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> what'd i run it on ? << it's not actually such a bad idea to render the whole thing as flat files and do something cleverish w/comments
ben_vulpes: <mircea_popescu> in cpanelworld, yeah it does. << haha what is this madness
williamdunne: If I invest in college, and the outcome is a law degree, with which I become a lawyer, how is that not investment?
williamdunne: I understand with a gender studies degree though..
williamdunne: What if someone else pays for a degree and in return they get a % of my salary?
williamdunne: Their slave? Its a mutual agreement from the beginning
mircea_popescu: yes, yes. but is it a mutual agreement of that kind, where you're teh slavegirl.
williamdunne: If you acknowledge La Serenissima are you its slavegirl because you pay 0.1%?
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 19:57:06; Pierre_Rochard: it’s ssh friendly, send your ssh pubkey signed with your gpg key
mircea_popescu: williamdunne no, but i also don't ask it to sent me to college.
williamdunne: Seems like a pretty rough line, either way its a choice, and the outcome is losing future income in return for something
mircea_popescu: essentially, you(before the deal) and you(after the deal) are different and irreconciliably so.
mircea_popescu: while before the deal your incentive might have been to realise future income,
mircea_popescu: after the deal your incentive is to sell more future income for its present value.
mircea_popescu: as they say, "nothing ruins a start-up quite like a bad money source early on"
mircea_popescu: it's kinda how america ruined itself, too, ironically enough.
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 20:04:04; Adlai: so, it's less convenient for signing a patch relative to an upstream repo; but is exactly what you want if you just want to have a single head to put on a stake when heardbleed 2.0 gets uncovered
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: Confusing OpenSSH and OpenSSL again.
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 20:10:09; trinque: max commit size and beatings
Pierre_Rochard: BingoBoingo: they really should rebrand… maybe take LibreSSH haha
BingoBoingo: Pierre_Rochard: Nah, Theo should have trademarked the word "Open"
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 20:12:42; davout: williamdunne: everybody fucking knows that
BingoBoingo: They've got an OpenBSD, OpenSMTP, OpenNTP, OpenSSH, They might as well stick OpenSSL with finding a new front and themselves keep LibreSSL for confusion and lulz
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 20:14:38; Adlai: really this is all masturbation until we have a by-hand constructible fab
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform welcopme to linux world alfie. i hear it's where the smart boys go.
mircea_popescu: and never are heard from again, except for muffled cries in the solitude of the night.
mircea_popescu: and before anyone doubts that there can be such a thing : you COULD fuck a woman with a 3 inch drill bit attached to a percution drill.
mircea_popescu: this discussion makes me not feel so bad about havin sniffed varnish all day.
assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25089 @ 0.00029383 = 7.3719 BTC [-] {2}
mircea_popescu: i am still awaiting your gentoo canonical build being published / your canonical web hoster being enacted on this or any other box etc.
mircea_popescu: dun let me get in the way of meta-linux, by all means!
assbot: Logged on 28-04-2015 20:23:19; trinque: and "speed" of development should not be a value
mircea_popescu: ascii_field: trinque: and if any of you produce a 100kB patch, and i barf on general principle << there is a problem here. the code as it is is pretty long. just a simple "remove most of it" will be in the kbs.
trinque: yeh, I prefer the hate one's peers rather than arbitrary rules
mircea_popescu: i doubt the magical patch that fixes the 1001 things will fit in 100kb for instance.
trinque: patches of whatever size make sense, and there's a process by which everyone else can call the patch shit in public
mircea_popescu: trinque merely calling things shit is no golden bullet.
trinque: doesn't seem there is one, neh?
mircea_popescu: unless some sort of consensus can emerge the public'll just split
mircea_popescu: ascii_field: i'd be open to a purely gnumake-based thing << this before make starts building static or only after ? :D