tmsr - Log 2014-01-19

mircea_popescu: "These guys worked for 10 years without pay. They have the right to have their work recognized with a diploma, which is nothing much these days."

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ever heard of the bogdanov twins ?

asciilifeform: nope

asciilifeform: or, wait...

mircea_popescu: the two guys that figured out the planck era.

asciilifeform: aha the french

asciilifeform: why remembered?

mircea_popescu: "All these were ideas that could possibly make sense. It showed some originality and some familiarity with the jargon. That's all I ask."

mircea_popescu: because i was having a dispute with some lambsy over hierarchy, truth and all that.

asciilifeform: make lambsy stuff his fingers in a mains socket. he'll learn hierarchy, truth...

asciilifeform: ... and power.

mircea_popescu: i don't want her to lose a nail.

mircea_popescu: anyway, how often does an onslaught against humanities constructed around the sokal hoaks end up blindised by a "o yeah ?! what about the bogdanov twins then

mircea_popescu: !!!"

pankkake: bogdanov twins are pretty much "tv scientists"

asciilifeform: https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!msg/sci.physics/KOBNOKq9FvI/ZjV8jeT9-AkJ

ozbot: Google Groups

mircea_popescu: o wait, you had them on tv huh

pankkake: got their phd because everyone was tired of them, and schemed to have it delivered by a prestigious school, though they had nothing to do with that school

mircea_popescu: i wonder what % of people are in their situation by now.

asciilifeform: "Igor and Grishka Bogdanov are long-time TV stars on

asciilifeform: french TV, with an act between science-fiction and scientific

asciilifeform: popularisation. I am a bit surprised that a faculty failed to

asciilifeform: *know* them as experts in mystifications."

mircea_popescu: afaik it wasn't deliberately constructed

mircea_popescu: no /

mircea_popescu: ?

pankkake: well, you end up having most diplomas wether you're good or not; most diplomas mean nothing. I certainly wouldn't hire anyone who has my diplomas and nothing else to show

pankkake: deliberately constructed?

asciilifeform: i'm all for a little 'lustration' of physics as a field:

asciilifeform: exam:

asciilifeform: lock candidate in a well-stocked lab, circa 1920.

asciilifeform: he must, say, construct a (working) triode valve.

asciilifeform: if he fails, he goes to Kolyma instead of physics.

mircea_popescu: pankkake yes, like sokal's.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform problem with this is the chinese would produce numerous triode valve procuders.

asciilifeform: sorta like an adult version of the 'MIT battery' test.

nubbins`: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2014/01/casascius-back

ozbot: Bitcoin Mint Reopens After Nastygram From Feds | Wired Enterprise | Wired.com

mircea_popescu: you can probably train a well chosen monkey to make one

mircea_popescu: o hey.

asciilifeform: (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIhk9eKOLzQ)

nubbins`: "But how do you know that the privkey inside matches the public key part? And how do you know the privkey wasn't copied by someone before being sold to you? This thing is far less secure than a downloaded paper wallet!"

nubbins`: so much comment fail

pankkake: it's not really comparable. sokal wanted to prove a point, they just were bad and wanted a phd

nubbins`: i don't have a third hand to do a triple-facepalm, so i'm using the table

mircea_popescu: pankkake yeah.

asciilifeform: you can train a monkey, yes. but the problem is to be unexpected and picked from a hat, like a soviet oral exam

asciilifeform: one fellow gets to make a triode, another, to measure speed of light to 1%, another...

mircea_popescu: so caldwell moving to "m,ake your own coin" model /

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i wish to see this boat of yours.

pankkake: I remember when on my programming exams some studends were protesting because the things they had to solve were "new problems"

mircea_popescu: lol

nubbins`: mp, not sure why he didn't do this in the first place.

mircea_popescu: i recall from my days in highschool that teh womenz mostly wanted to do again and again the same stuff as likely to show up on the bacalaureat thingee.

asciilifeform: you could improve virtually any field, not only physics, with Extreme Muppet Removal Algorithm (TM)

nubbins`: "you send me x+y coins, i keep y coins, mail you shiny metal, then send x coins to your shiny metal"

pankkake: it was first year though, second year was much more sane

pankkake: but that clearly was the result of the high school mentality

nubbins`: plenty of forum rage, "how am i supposed to know the coins are funded! who do i trust!" etc

mircea_popescu: the way they packaged it at the time was that womenz get scared in unfamiliar situations and therefore must "have practice

nubbins`: "things are different, my thinker doesn't work anymore"

mircea_popescu: nubbins` course you could make your own holosticks and fdill the coins yourself.

asciilifeform: this hologram business, why does anyone swallow it

nubbins`: these new ones will still come with holos

mircea_popescu: shuit up. it shines.

asciilifeform: coping holo is 1980s tech

asciilifeform: *copy

mircea_popescu: i once put a shiny thing on my cock and it got bigger.

nubbins`: that was a mirror ;p

mircea_popescu: haters

nubbins`: "shit, i've got two bellheads now!"

nubbins`: asciilifeform: and yet the only fakes i've seen have been brutally obvious

mircea_popescu: did the holo say GUC ?

pankkake: finding the way to make cocks bigger is the sure way to becoming a billionnaire

nubbins`: it didn't even use the same font

mircea_popescu: or did you end up with the CCI end

nubbins`: HEH

nubbins`: http://casascius.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/counterfeit.jpg

mircea_popescu: much low quality. such shitty.

mircea_popescu: why no cam ?

nubbins`: compare to: http://imgur.com/1rJZWvV

pankkake: oh, it's not an original because there is no original written on it. i get it!

nubbins`: haha

nubbins`: "this hologram is not fake"

mircea_popescu: nubbins` there's a tshirt idea for you :

asciilifeform: that last one - 'casascius' vs. 'casacius'

asciilifeform: (middle vs. sides)

mircea_popescu: "this is the original tshirt. everyone else is just wearing copies."

nubbins`: ooh

mircea_popescu: yw.

nubbins`: would probably fetch a higher price than my idea for bespoke public key shirts, too

asciilifeform: i've never even seen these before, and this part was obvious

nubbins`: asciilifeform, that's the infamous "hologram error" that noobs believe makes the coins more valuable

nubbins`: in fact, 1btc holo error coins are maybe one of the more common sorts.

asciilifeform: beautiful.

mircea_popescu: apparently caldwell couscous'd his own cascasname

nubbins`: a truly rare gem is a 2011 1btc WITHOUT a hologram error.

asciilifeform: i still don't get the appeal, maybe i'm just thick

nubbins`: the appeal for me is that i'm into coin collecting anyway

mircea_popescu: kinda like being the only guy at the swinger's party with a chick with total hysterectomy.

asciilifeform: if i want coldwallets in ampoules, i'll seal them myself

mircea_popescu: it's RARE.

nubbins`: it's like if you found a sexy woman whose pussy was coded in ASM or something.

asciilifeform: 'rare' is when you make 10 of something and they're the only such things on the planet

mircea_popescu: unrelatedly : did anyone know that obamacare specifies it's illegal to provide better health plans for top executives than you provide for rank and file clerks ?

nubbins`: even us canadians don't take it that far.

nubbins`: that's ostensibly very egalitarian, got my doubts it'll work that way in practice

mircea_popescu: fuck practice. how dares it pretend to work that way in theory.

nubbins`: heh!

mircea_popescu: who would pay taxes in a fuckuntry where they actually believe random clerk has the same right to survive as a ceo.

nubbins`: regardless of premiums paid?

nubbins`: like, the ceo can't even pay extra for a better plan?

mircea_popescu: well apparently the notion that if i pay someone 1mn a year i can afford to pay for better health care than if he barely pulls his weight at 10k a year is a mystery nao.

asciilifeform: nubbins`: ceo buys a plane ticket and then whatever he likes.

mircea_popescu: basically, "let's make everything equal, in the sense that everything should suck"

asciilifeform: the whole thing is a 'conspicuous benevolence' circus, not actual politics.

mircea_popescu: "imagine, all the money we'll save"

nubbins`: well, short people can only raise a bar so high, y'know

jurov: we have put together an idea - etch the keys to the metal

mircea_popescu: jurov what's that help ?

nubbins`: there was a discussion about etched keys and medical imaging equipment

jurov: cover the privkey with another piece of metal, solder together

nubbins`: and whether the resolution is great enough

asciilifeform: the 'btc coin' is about as interesting as those cars they had in the 1890s, the ones with... reins.

jurov: and apply the stamp to the solder

jurov: no flimsy holos

nubbins`: hm.

mircea_popescu: i doubt this is in any way stronger.

nubbins`: so like a picture charm?

nubbins`: but soldered together?

jurov: yes, like with wax. you'll have to recreate the stamp if you tamper with it

nubbins`: seems trivial

jurov: imho harder than to peel off holo sticker

nubbins`: why not just press wax against the seal to dupe it?

nubbins`: lel 80yo woman with teddy bear hat walked up the road

nubbins`: oh sorry, it's a wolf head

jurov: yes, ofc seal can be duped, but it takes some time

mircea_popescu: some time /!

jurov: it's harder than to figure out how to dissolve holo sticker glue, that's all

nubbins`: common solvents ;p

asciilifeform: try liquid CO2.

nubbins`: freeze it off!

nubbins`: i'm itching to try a few things, but i don't want to ruin a bunch of coins

asciilifeform: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/File:Physbitcoinkey.jpg

asciilifeform: this, i take it, is the scheme?

nubbins`: yeah

asciilifeform: what's on the other side?

nubbins`: the pubkey

asciilifeform: yes, but is there a holo?

nubbins`: wait the other side of what?

asciilifeform: or just metal

asciilifeform: the coin

nubbins`: just metal

asciilifeform: then you have your answer.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14329 @ 0.0008479 = 12.1496 BTC [+] {2}

nubbins`: http://imgur.com/TOxg3pc

ozbot: imgur: the simple image sharer

nubbins`: do i? :(

asciilifeform: slice metal coin with appropriate tool (excimer laser?), read key, fuse metal again.

asciilifeform: or drill with same, then borescope.

asciilifeform: hologram is untouched.

nubbins`: holo untouched, metal butchered

nubbins`: you're telling me you can half a coin along its height and reattach it?

asciilifeform: metal can be replicated with 19th c. tech.

nubbins`: hm

asciilifeform: http://site.spyville.com/spy-coins/spy-coin-quarter.jpg

nubbins`: heh.

nubbins`: would be tough to not roast the private key

nubbins`: it's just paper

asciilifeform: ever boil water in a paper cup?

asciilifeform: try it

nubbins`: that's a bit different, paper can survive comfortably at 100C

nubbins`: it cannot survive comfortably at the melt point of brass

asciilifeform: it doesn't even singe

asciilifeform: and laser doesn't melt, it sublimates.

asciilifeform: (unless you're a complete noob)

asciilifeform: re: drilling:

asciilifeform: http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/uploaded/Omnivorous/20120304_moneta.jpg

nubbins`: true

nubbins`: regardless, there'd still be enormous heat transfer to the paper, no?

asciilifeform: so you remove the heat on the other side.

nubbins`: uh huh. right. sorry, no coffee yet today

asciilifeform: peltier element stack. keep the paper at a comfortable 20C.

nubbins`: i was looking at peltier fans the other day, actually

nubbins`: my folks have a propane fireplace, but the fan obv doesn't circulate the heat when the power goes

asciilifeform: consumer cpu peltier isn't the answer here, you want a fat stack like the kind used in PCR machines.

nubbins`: well, when these unfunded coins start hitting the market, i bet there's going to be some experimenting going on

asciilifeform: re: fireplace: nobody cancelled thermodynamics. your main problem will be to find a cold object for the other end of the peltier.

nubbins`: the air in the room :D

nubbins`: i've seen ones that will run off the temp differential between the top of the stove and the ambient air

asciilifeform: that's pretty easy. your tea kettle does much the same.

nubbins`: http://www.leevalley.com/en/gifts/page.aspx?c=&p=50246&cat=4,104,55967

ozbot: Ecofan® - Lee Valley Tools

nubbins`: lee valley is a wondrous place for tinkerers and fiddlers

nubbins`: wait, is this even the same goddamn tech?

nubbins`: yeah

nubbins`: wait, no. similar.

nubbins`: anyway, i think the main reason nobody's tried slicing and dicing casascius coins until now is because the premiums were always so goddamn high

nubbins`: and nobody wanted to potentially flush a couple btc down the drain experimenting

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.57363679 = 11.4727 BTC [+] {8}

asciilifeform: no need to use an actual coin to experiment

asciilifeform: brass with paper glued to it should suffice for a proof of concept.

nubbins`: hm, nod

nubbins`: i think the holo itself would shrivel long before the paper browns, but point remains the same. as long as you can keep the reverse (or is it obverse?) at room-ish temperature

nubbins`: a casascius spy coin, imagine

asciilifeform: other idea

asciilifeform: private key is presumably printed after hologram is made

nubbins`: yes.

asciilifeform: STM (microscope) the holo side.

asciilifeform: watch for bumps.

asciilifeform: ink has mass!

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16121 @ 0.00085016 = 13.7054 BTC [+]

asciilifeform: poor man's STM can be made with a pair of piezo speakers ($1-5 each)

nubbins`: i've got stacks of piezos

asciilifeform: think 'record player' but with a very sharp needle and on an x-y plane instead of spiral.

nubbins`: with a needle and a piezo, srsly?

asciilifeform: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/ScanningTunnelingMicroscope_schematic.png

nubbins`: huh. yeah, apparently <$1k in parts

asciilifeform: one kid did an $50 demo (a decade or two ago?)

nubbins`: !

nubbins`: i'm imagining repurposing a 3d printer

nubbins`: precise x,y,z control

asciilifeform: nope. you need oscillating analogue signal for the kind of distances involved

asciilifeform: 3d printer gives you 0.1mm/step at best

nubbins`: PWM?

asciilifeform: stepper motor is geared so 1 step = x mm. of belt travel

nubbins`: aha

nubbins`: .1mm might be okay, y'know

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.575 BTC [+]

nubbins`: once you get a handle on the font, even a fairly low-res image would narrow things down to a reasonable set of possibilities

asciilifeform: once you establish a way to pick up ink/no-ink on the holo side, the jig is up.

asciilifeform: you might even be able to use the piezo needle for x-y and a sensitive capacitance meter for the 'ink' signal.

asciilifeform: holo is aluminum, coin is brass, ink+paper -> dielectric

asciilifeform: treat the system as a grid of very small capacitors...

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.55660018 = 11.132 BTC [-] {8}

nubbins`: i'm about 70% of the way towards just giving you a coin to play with ;p

lippoper: .bait

ozbot: http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_me0t3uS36r1qk2vvro1_1280.jpg

asciilifeform: why count on others, do it yerself

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 20 @ 0.54334699 = 10.8669 BTC [-] {5}

asciilifeform: btw, what's the thing printed on the top? 1st characters of key?

asciilifeform: if so, this means you can check your answer without popping the coin's cherry.

nubbins`: yes, correct

nubbins`: not quite firstbits, but you can check the code against a published list

asciilifeform: well then.

nubbins`: hence the derpiness of "how will we know the coins are funded?" regarding forthcoming self-funded coins

nubbins`: just clicking through related articles on wired

nubbins`: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/category/thats-not-how-you-use-it/

ozbot: That's Not How You Use It | Gadget Lab | Wired.com

nubbins`: lel

nubbins`: there's an article on how to properly wear a bike helmet

nubbins`: and another explaining the dangers of tightly wrapping your macbook's power cord around the brick

nubbins`: up next: 10 reasons why it's a bad idea to masturbate with a reciprocating saw

asciilifeform: http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/2011/11/Snapshot-2011-11-14-16-35-171.jpg

asciilifeform: china tests orbital laser cutter.

nubbins`: that's quite the tangram

asciilifeform: (as good a guess as any)

nubbins`: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/02/lockwhip-bike-tool-demoed-by-rider-with-a-deathwish/

ozbot: LockWhip Bike Tool Demoed by Rider with a Deathwish | Gadget Lab | Wired.com

nubbins`: ^ pretty lelly video as well as article

nubbins`: "As you can see, the chap doing the demonstration is a qualified fixed-gear rider: With no brakes, he terrorizes pedestrians by running a red light at top speed and careers into London’s Picadilly Circus. He also has the obligatory skinny pants with Kryptonite Evo-Mini D-lock in the back pocket. Rest assured: this guy is a professional."

asciilifeform: looks a little like: http://www.milsurpstuff.com/prodimages/PJTW1.jpg

asciilifeform: ('m16' barrel wrench. single-piece combo tools are nothing new.)

nubbins`: i like how they chose an asshole rider who blows red lights to demo their product

nubbins`: near the end of the video, he misses a bus by about two coats of paint

nubbins`: switching gears for a second, looks like this gem will sell: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/331103983219?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649

nubbins`: ooh, pun actually not intended.

asciilifeform: wonder if just us having this conversation shaved a few pennies of the market value of these things

asciilifeform: crack one, crack them all...

nubbins`: there's a high level of irrationality present in the subset of people who are into these coins

asciilifeform: can't imagine it would survive a public reading of the key through the holo.

nubbins`: at decfon last year, they managed to remove a holo while leaving only slight traces of tampering

nubbins`: everyone then rushed to get their coins graded and slabbed, as if the cat wasn't already out of the bag

asciilifeform: 'slight' is not quite as spiffy as 'none.'

nubbins`: not nearly as spiffy, no

nubbins`: i still haven't seen a legit, undetectable unfunding.

asciilifeform: 'best way to predict the future is to invent it.'

nubbins`: nod

nubbins`: casascius started offering pgp custody chains

nubbins`: i took him up on it and have been offering to extend the chain to buyers. only one has taken me up on it so far.

nubbins`: to be fair, once the coin changes hands twice, a chain of custody is essentially useless

asciilifeform: well, chain of custody could help you avoid coins touched by people with dirty minds, like you and i.

asciilifeform: (though if i actually gave a damn about exploiting casascius, last thing i'd do is tell people about it.)

nubbins`: the devil you know, etc

nubbins`: one of the interesting things about casascius coins is that nobody seems to know how to price them

nubbins`: there are a handful of fools who insist on pricing via "2x/4x face value" and other nonsense

nubbins`: as if the face value of a coin has any bearing on its numismatic value

nubbins`: then there are the fools who believe their coins are impossibly valuable -- plenty of 25btc rounds with asking prices of 40+btc

nubbins`: as if somebody's going to pay a $13,000 premium for a round minted last year

nubbins`: i spoke to a guy who TURNED DOWN an offer of 30btc for his 10btc round.

mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2014/ron-maimon-lubos-motl-and-other-internet-things-i-hear-of-today-for-the-very-first-time/

mircea_popescu: i'm doing internet muppets today.

nubbins`: heh

nubbins`: mircea_popescu, ever read "the coming insurrection"?

mircea_popescu: i don't think so.

nubbins`: written by "the invisible committee", aka the Tarnac Nine

nubbins`: seems like the sort of thing you might enjoy reviewing, if not reading

asciilifeform: speaking of truly bizarre, for anyone who missed it earlier:

asciilifeform: http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/2711/1/The%20answer%20lies%20in%20the%20sewers(lsero).pdf

asciilifeform: "the answer lies in the sewers."

nubbins`: http://zinelibrary.info/files/pdf_Insurrection.pdf

mircea_popescu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-I6XTVZXww other bizarre

ozbot: ASTOUNDING: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + ... = -1/12 - YouTube

mircea_popescu: nubbins` aite.

nubbins`: pdf, i know

nubbins`: it's not readily available in plain text

asciilifeform: neither is 'sewers', but definitely worth reading.

nubbins`: i first read this around the time "occupy" was floundering about. had a chuckle at one point where they decry the General Assembly as essentially the worst idea ever

nubbins`: meanwhile, 5k hippies in downtown NY...

mircea_popescu: nubbins` i guess i'll convert it

nubbins`: asciilifeform, i'm gonna bookmark this

nubbins`: mircea_popescu, i downloaded the printable version and read it as hard copy

nubbins`: easy print-stack-fold format

nubbins`: incomprehensibly, the printable version is english-only

nubbins`: ...

nubbins`: actually, sorry.

nubbins`: http://tarnac9.wordpress.com/texts/the-coming-insurrection/

ozbot: The Coming Insurrection | Support the Tarnac 10

nubbins`: i think that's actually the complete text

nubbins`: "Another reflex is to call a general assembly at the slightest sign of movement, and vote. This is a mistake. The business of voting and deciding a winner, is enough to turn the assembly into a nightmare, into a theater where all the various little pretenders to power confront each other. Here we suffer from the bad example of bourgeois parliaments. An assembly is not a place for decisions but for

nubbins`: palaver, for free speech exercised without a goal."

nubbins`: that's rich

mircea_popescu: lol

nubbins`: k, gotta jet. peace

mircea_popescu: nubbins` why am i reading a french text in english ?!

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 45 @ 0.00415 = 0.1868 BTC [-]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7950 @ 0.00084519 = 6.7193 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.57916639 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.57916839 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 41 @ 0.00534528 = 0.2192 BTC [-]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 5 @ 0.04999988 = 0.25 BTC [+]

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 50 @ 0.00534528 = 0.2673 BTC [-]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4653 @ 0.00084767 = 3.9442 BTC [+]

benkay`: the only fartup in which i'm taking equity right now is Bitcoin.

KRS1: did you guys se this

KRS1: https://ripple.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5509

ozbot: Ripple Discussion • View topic - Peercover Simple Stocks

benkay`: https://ripple.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5509#p36398

ozbot: Ripple Discussion • View topic - Peercover Simple Stocks

benkay`: "So if I own a business I can sell shares on ripple using your service? I will need to look into this..."

KRS1: looks like it

benkay`: if this person actually "owned" an actual "business" they wouldn't be "looking into" selling shares on some derpy ripple thing

KRS1: actually it specifically says you can buy/sell tickers tied to the ripple protocol with this platform

KRS1: hard to figure out what the hell anymore..such scam everywhere you look it seems

benkay`: if it's not actually a bitcoin it's a scam

benkay`: most of the time it's a scam of the innocent 'i want to derp a thing related to buttcorns so i'll poop some features and call it bitcoin 2.0' type

KRS1: so consider this..peercover is insurance but they also will now have an exchange for trading..doesn't this complicate their liquidity requirements

kakobrekla: kyle_torpey ENJOY YOUR MEAL, eveyone, kyle_torpey is having lunch!!!11

pankkake: bitcoin businesses seem to raise money when they don't need it, end up with a shitload of coins, and simply don't have any incentive to work

pankkake: whereas they could do most of the work before raising funds

benkay`: KRS1: where can i read more about peercover being insurance? their website has *nothing*.

KRS1: sec

mircea_popescu: KRS1 how is this new/noteworthy/whatever ?

mircea_popescu: and who's kyle

benkay`: also i ams in need of htmling and cssing does anyone in here have a recommendation?

mircea_popescu: and oter questions

KRS1: wow peercover site sux

mircea_popescu: benkay` alberto ?

benkay`: alberto?

pankkake: benkay`: what do you mean exactly, htmling and cssing?

mircea_popescu: yes, alberto amandi. an expert.

jurov: safety-compliant round corners?

mircea_popescu: read like "an hero"

KRS1: I found more information about peercover here http://ripplefederation.org/news/peercover-launches-distributed-insurance-platform-built-on-ripple

pankkake: I only do manly CSS. sharp corners, no shadows

benkay`: pankkake: mvp landing pages, 2014-compliant design choices

mircea_popescu: "only do mainly" is not english

benkay`: styling of web application stuff and of course hacking on legacy crap

mircea_popescu: KRS1 do you see any indication this is anything more or other than a purely nominalist rebranding of their old crap that was already beaten to shit in the marketplace ?

pankkake: mircea_popescu: manly not mainly

mircea_popescu: whoa i cnat raed.

KRS1: mircea_popescu my vote is no

KRS1: i tossed it out to the chan to see if anyone had an opinion

KRS1: mircea_popescu: it wasn't peercover exactly I was trying to get at here, it was their trading platform

mircea_popescu: the idea they're still pushing usagiesque nonsense...

mircea_popescu: crowd insurance. heh.

KRS1: thats a nightmare waiting to happen imo

KRS1: love this analogy: xrp, like worldcoin turned our lady bitcoin into a cheap whore

mircea_popescu: initially they thought they can buy their way into relevancy, and intelligent actors bleed them dry.

KRS1: haa nice

mircea_popescu: now they don't dare try for phase two of that, and so they're stuck waiting. it will probably be indefinite.

KRS1: they're hitting up angel investment in the meantime

asciilifeform: the funny part is that these folks would be richer, work less, and spend slightly less time in jail if... they wrote virii.

asciilifeform: and would be serving a useful 'ecological purpose'

asciilifeform: (put people off winblows)

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform they'd be even richer, work more at shit they like working at and so on and so forth if they just gave up their delusions of self importance and agency and just found some better people to submit to.

mircea_popescu: in short, people rarely make the best decisions for themselves

mircea_popescu: it's out of that wastage that communities emerge in the first place.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i specifically brought up crapware as a field where a modestly clever fellow could work without answering to anyone.

mircea_popescu: yeah, but their problem kinda is that they should be answering to someone. i can sorta see the loneliness in their actions.

asciilifeform: i'm not certain why you so readily conclude that they aren't happy 'wolf men'

asciilifeform: (in the medieval sense of 'rogue')

mircea_popescu: well... either because i'm naive or because i've seen happy wolf men and they don't look like it

mircea_popescu: a knave is not a rogue.

mircea_popescu: a knave is just a boy without a father.

KRS1: asciilifeform the problem with crapware is capitalizing on it, thats where the road ends for most..writing virii is the easy part

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 99 @ 0.00535 = 0.5297 BTC [+]

KRS1: lol @ <CiPi> And everyone must know, bitcoin will never be accepted by banks. NEVER. And because of this the price of bitcoin will rise like the price of cocaine in 1960.

asciilifeform: KRS1: crap artists (whom i hunt for a living, different story) never seem to have any problem renting out space on their crapnets.

kakobrekla: i wanna hear the different story

mircea_popescu: is it the phenomenology of cool driving it ? like he guy with the ferrari at burning man never having trouble "renting" the bitch ride ?

mircea_popescu: or is it actually economical ?

asciilifeform: maybe once i leave that work behind. i promise it isn't an interesting story though.

asciilifeform: most of what i see is profoundly disappointing in the intellectual sense.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: remember your essay on spam?

mircea_popescu: i do.

asciilifeform: about how most spammers are cargo cultists

asciilifeform: who heard, of someone long ago and far away, turning a profit...

pankkake: it's very much like bitcoin mining

pankkake: profit is in selling the stuff

pankkake: I don't think it used to be as separate as it is now

asciilifeform: as a boy, i read about an 18th c. book, 'Triple Power over the Forces of Hell' ☟︎☟︎

asciilifeform: that promised the reader that he could learn to summon devils

mircea_popescu: hfkajs@hotmail.com

mircea_popescu: 91.207.6.174Submitted on 2014/01/16 at 4:46 d.m.

mircea_popescu: {Entrepreneurs|Business owners|Internet marketers|Business people|Enterprisers} {and large|and enormous|and huge} {firms|companies|businesses|organizations|corporations} {should|ought to|must|need to|really should} {both|each|the two|both equally|equally} {take advantage of the|make use of the|use the|benefit from the|leverage the} {resources|sources|assets|solutions|information} {offered to|provided to|agreed to|wante

mircea_popescu: d to|told her i would} {U|Oughout|Ough|You|United}. {S|H|T|S i9000|Nasiums}. {クロエ財布新作 2013|シーバイクロエバッグ新作 2013|クロエアウトレット|クロエバッグ人気|シーバイクロエ財布新作 2013}

asciilifeform: who would help him find treasures

asciilifeform: the book changed hands many, many times

asciilifeform: each time, for a much greater price

asciilifeform: i think back to this every time i read about the btc mining 'industry.'

mircea_popescu: at least in the 1800s it was a book

mircea_popescu: now it's a box

mircea_popescu: anyway, the quote above is from my own blog. cargo cultist got a spam script, understands some parts of how it works. ends up sending the unprocessed spinlist.

asciilifeform: worst part is that in this latter case, the devil occasionally appears and shits out a little gold, just enough to temp the sinner into being stupider

mircea_popescu: imo that's the good part, but hey.

asciilifeform: i do agree, it's far more interesting with fully-functioning devils.

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2350 @ 0.00084584 = 1.9877 BTC [-]

asciilifeform: getting back to the crapware: most instances you're dealing with a case of 'work 12 hrs. a day to make minim. wage while you sleep.' ☟︎

mircea_popescu: i like that expression.

asciilifeform: most of the career spammers / crapware artists are based in parts of the world where the resulting pennies buy you something approaching a civilized life.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i'm pretty sure i lifted that phrase straight from your essays

mircea_popescu: i came to it studying the warrior forum (*) years ago, when i noticed the unifying factor in all their textual emissions was a desire to "make money while you sleep". ☟︎

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: as someone who works 'with' these people, i think i have a bit of a psycho-crackpot angle on their driving philosophy

mircea_popescu: * it's a large, affiliate forum. people who eke out a harsh existence at the edges of economy, internet and legality. the guys who buy 50k clicks on site y to send to site x.

asciilifeform: they want to eat without submitting.

mircea_popescu: that part is fine.

asciilifeform: some of them, if they could be fishermen on some forgotten shore, would probably take it up.

mircea_popescu: i suspect the baby is thrown with a bathwater somewhere at some point somehow tho

mircea_popescu: because at the bottom line there's no baby.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the most successful ones i've 'met' so far live in your home town.

jurov: ;;gpg everify freenode:#bitcoin-otc:984a516497b5bbf7875262e65772f2c2155a07cc3d0a46a878f36fae

gribble: You are now authenticated for user jurov with key 677ABD62D0AEE7D7

mircea_popescu: ha.

asciilifeform: (obligatory note about the traditional 'good spies' vs. 'famous spies')

nubbins`: re: french vs english, i have no idea. TANJ.

nubbins`: apparently french people don't want to print things, nor read web pages

mircea_popescu: ;;google here's a story from our town, of the prettiest girl around.

gribble: JOHNNY CASH LYRICS - Ballad Of A Teenage Queen - A-Z Lyrics: <http://www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/johnnycash/balladofateenagequeen.html>; Rodney Crowell - Ballad of a Teenage Queen (with lyrics) - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNKOTdwtT3s>; Our Town - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Town>

mircea_popescu: there we go.

nubbins`: although a simpler explanation is that anglos find The Coming Insurrection much more interesting than francos.

mircea_popescu: nubbins` which is kind of my point.

asciilifeform: crapware is a very valuable psychological gauge of mankind

mircea_popescu: in french is just a banal term paper on the works of otherwise commonplace academics.

asciilifeform: in the sense that it spans the entire spectrum from 'idiot, how does he remember to breathe' to 'brilliant, jewel of the ages'

nubbins`: i think there's less of an "allure of the unknown" on these sorts of topic in french society

mircea_popescu: in the intellectually-desititute english language, it's an incendiary tract glenn beck gets all excited about.

nubbins`: for obvious reasons

mircea_popescu: here's the thing : the french actually still think.

nubbins`: they still think and they still kick up a stink once in a while

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i agree, and i propose to you it's because it is a free market.

nubbins`: by and large, the anglo world was long ago cowed into inaction

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: correct. and what's yet funnier, it showcases the 'marx' point about 'alienated labour'

nubbins`: and texts like that are essentially an edgy fantasy novel

mircea_popescu: that's a reading on it, but i doubt there's depth there.

asciilifeform: in that the true craftsmen stand to profit directly from their craftsmanship, while the idiots are doing it 'as a job'

nubbins`: speaking of craftsmen, installing some nice new countertops and cabinets in the studio.

asciilifeform: curiously, the uptake of btc among crap artists has, so far, been minimal. they are very 'tradition-bound.'

asciilifeform: the few exceptions tend to get hyped up in the media organs

nubbins`: http://imgur.com/bjLuDv9

ozbot: imgur: the simple image sharer

nubbins`: will be nice to finally have a place to lay things

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i suspect the premise that criminals are driven by a desire to acquire wealth is flawed here. crap artists aren't REALLY running a business.

mircea_popescu: they're trying to entertain themselves.

nubbins`: ooh, ^

asciilifeform: the good ones are clearly motivated by the pleasure of the craft

mircea_popescu: and the bad ones by boredom

asciilifeform: e.g. bulgarian 'dark avenger' and his intellectual descendents

mircea_popescu: in the end... kind of the same thing n'est pas.

asciilifeform: the bad ones seem to be motivated by... need.

asciilifeform: in the sense of a street beggar

mircea_popescu: i wouldn't believe anything poor people say that has "need" in it.

nubbins`: need mixed with lack of ambition, perhaps

mircea_popescu: i've yet not heard a case that wasn't a lie.

asciilifeform: in that very special sense of 'need'

mircea_popescu: yawell.

asciilifeform: 'ineedadrink, gimmme'

nubbins`: "I NEEDS A PACK OF SMOKES"

nubbins`: (verb conjugation is a very fluid thing here)

asciilifeform: in June, the fellow who wrote a popular trojan, 'Caberp', was pwned, and his whole disk posted for public amusement

mircea_popescu: what os ?

asciilifeform: if i recall, he was making about 1k usd / mo.

asciilifeform: winblows what else

mircea_popescu: so wait.

asciilifeform: it was the most valuable 'psychiatric' find in the field, because the disk was full of correspondence with customers and half-finished work

nubbins`: 1k/mo?

mircea_popescu: guy on windows pulling in 1k/mo is the nikki minj of viruses ?

nubbins`: that's like

nubbins`: below the poverty line

asciilifeform: remember: 'famous spy'

mircea_popescu: this is almost as much lol as the first time i got actual data as to what entertainers actually earn.

asciilifeform: 'most famous spy' != 'best spy'

mircea_popescu: dude they be rappaz. dey come take yo woman an' ride.

nubbins`: mircea_popescu: let me guess, not enough to sustain their lavish lifestyles? ;p

mircea_popescu: i read all about it

mircea_popescu: nubbins` what lavish lifestyles.

asciilifeform: there are mining nets 1mil+ strong.

nubbins`: you know, like renting out sports cars for video shoots.

nubbins`: or buying everyone's drinks at "the club"

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the fact that there are commecrial fleets worth >1bn does not necessarily mean any one ceo is living in better conditions than your average gulag campmaster.

mircea_popescu: you ever seen a star buy everyone drinks ?!

nubbins`: no D:

pankkake: http://www.osnews.com/story/27519/_OpenBSD_will_shut_down_if_we_do_not_have_the_funding_ (they accept btc donations)

ozbot: "OpenBSD will shut down if we do not have the funding"

mircea_popescu: yay.

nubbins`: was surprised to learn de Raadt was canadian

pankkake: oh? I forgot

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: why yay ?

nubbins`: maybe the only calgarian who doesn't work in the service, oil, or cattle industries

nubbins`: dated a girl years ago whose grandfather was an oil guy. he couldn't even keep track of all the places he owned land.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform it was my sort-of clever retort to nubbins

pankkake: openbsd = grumpy paranoid old guys so I thought it would fit in here

mircea_popescu: not my fault people spam the chan with stuff one could even claim is relevant.

nubbins`: the fault is mine on that point

mircea_popescu: pankkake how much do they need anyway ?

asciilifeform: ~20k, says

nubbins`: ^

asciilifeform: (usd)

nubbins`: less than 24btc!

jurov: they should make openssh issue spammy donation pledges every now and then. problem solved

pankkake: maybe people don't know that funds openssh

pankkake: and other nice things

mircea_popescu: donate via bitpay. heh.

mircea_popescu: well, does anyone know any of the devs ?

punkman: don't they need most of the money to keep testing builds on a bunch of old hardware?

pankkake: converted to filthy CAD

nubbins`: the new polymer bills can be washed ;p

pankkake: basically to fund theo's "datacenter"

asciilifeform: 'openbsd, running on dead squirrel in shoebox since 19xx...'

pankkake: http://www.openbsd.org/images/rack2009.jpg close

asciilifeform: (obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBLr4wbiR6E)

punkman: seems like a lot for just electricity, what the fuck does he have stashed in there

pankkake: old hw is power hungry

asciilifeform: looks like a microvax in there (mid-right)

nubbins`: probably using incandescent bulbs too, the bastards

mircea_popescu: i use incandescents.

nubbins`: well, CFLs are full of mercury and don't work in dimmers

asciilifeform: their ventilation probably eats more kW/hr. than these machines.

nubbins`: too bad they'll soon be -- no joke -- ILLEGAL here

nubbins`: you occasionally see people at the hardware store with a shopping cart full of incandescent bulbs

asciilifeform: nubbins`: there are persistent rumours of people buying crates of classical lights to speculate in, when the black market comes.

nubbins`: well, the issue i have is that my home requires heating nine months out of the goddamn year.

mircea_popescu: check me out in #openbsd lol

mircea_popescu: so far we're at **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jan 19 22:13:01 2014

mircea_popescu: Jan 19 22:13:01 *Now talking on #openbsd

mircea_popescu: Jan 19 22:14:04 <mircea_popescu>soo, who has the authority to make a deal so I can cover the 20k shortfall ?

mircea_popescu: Jan 19 22:16:24 <woopstar>mircea_popescu: you need to contact Theo

mircea_popescu: Jan 19 22:16:32 <mircea_popescu>how would i go about that ?

nubbins`: now, if i'm running electric heat in my home 9 months out of 12

nubbins`: i should be allowed to use the most inefficient bulbs possible

nubbins`: doubly so if i've got an oil furnace.

pankkake: environmentalists don't understand that

pankkake: they probably want to ban inefficient heaters

asciilifeform: what, one might wonder, is an inefficient electric heater?

pankkake: exactly

asciilifeform: one that radiates too much in RF?

nubbins`: i wonder do they understand that domestically-produced incandescents shipped in corrugated cardboard makes more sense than chinese CFLs in plastic clamshells shipped across an ocean?

nubbins`: asciilifeform: a light bulb is an inefficient electric heater ;)

kakobrekla: its efficient heater

asciilifeform: the CFL thing is cynical bastards knowing exactly what they're doing, rather than mere ineptitude.

kakobrekla: inefficient light source.

kakobrekla: im going led.

nubbins`: nah man, it wastes what, 10% energy producing light?

nubbins`: maybe the worst heater

pankkake: usually regulations like that come with requirements that allow only one manufacturer

pankkake: so it might not be chinese, it will be worse; overpriced crap

kakobrekla: its efficient heater compared to inefiicient light source

nubbins`: well i tell you, i busted three CFLs in my bedroom before realizing that they're not meant for dimmers.

kakobrekla: lol

nubbins`: almost started tearing out the wiring, decided to check the box

nubbins`: "...oh"

pankkake: some LEDs are good, but you have to hunt…

kakobrekla: mhm

nubbins`: i'll probably start moving to LED when the current bulbs start going

asciilifeform: i still have yet to see an led lamp that will evenly light a room without being the size of a small tv set.

nubbins`: well that's the other problem, the type of light

nubbins`: generally i find CFLs to be mercilessly cold

nubbins`: much too blue

Diablo-D3: you can get warm cfls

Diablo-D3: problem is

Diablo-D3: cfl cri is too low

asciilifeform: white led is based on the same principle as the classic fluorescent tube ('phosphour', but with IR led instead of gas plasma for the excitation)

asciilifeform: so in principle you can get any colour you like

asciilifeform: just need the right rare earths

mircea_popescu: curious if anyting comes of this.

mircea_popescu: asciilifeform> the CFL thing is cynical bastards knowing exactly what they're doing, rather than mere ineptitude. << verily.

mircea_popescu: "currently coal burning means x mercury released in atmosphere per hour. we take that x and split it : 40% goes to atmosphere, 60% goes to your own house. but we're only gonna talk ofg the 40%"

asciilifeform: the luminosity/watt claims (transparently bogus, visit an electronics store) and the lifespan claims (chinese driver electronics in the lamp base)...

pankkake: I've had a lot of incandescents burn in less than 6 months. but it might have been the container's fault, too much heat

mircea_popescu: incidentally, the idea with led lighting is to go for spots i think

asciilifeform: on the other end of the spectrum... http://www.centennialbulb.org/

asciilifeform: ('underclocked' edison bulb)

pankkake: spots are great - I have really good lightning after proper orienting

pankkake: yeah, but underclocking is cheating

asciilifeform: anyone remember the bulbs they used to have in street lamps? the size of a man's head?

asciilifeform: betcha those would last decades at 100W

asciilifeform: the claims of 'bulb conspiracy' are not physically accurate, though

asciilifeform: as late as 40 yrs. ago, there was no way to economically regulate the current flowing through the filament

asciilifeform: except using the filament's own resistance

asciilifeform: (or that of other bulbs in series)

asciilifeform: but now you can use PWM, silicon rectifier.

asciilifeform: as in the dimmers commonly sold. (hence why they often buzz slightly.)

mircea_popescu: stil lin use here.

asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: the mega-incandescents?

mircea_popescu: yeah.

mircea_popescu: some haven't burned out/been broken in the more rural parts

asciilifeform: wonder if they're the same soviet caliber i saw!

mircea_popescu: so never got replaced

Diablo-D3: is anyone buying primecoin?

asciilifeform: 500W i think

asciilifeform: funnily: in wash.dc, the late-19th c. light poles near the Capitol and Smithsonian (museaums) are sized for those mega-bulbs

mircea_popescu: sounds aobut right

asciilifeform: but have piddling little CFLs in them for some years

mircea_popescu: (timisoara is teh first town in teh world to use electric lighting btw)

asciilifeform: many with the jagged wrecks instead of full CFLs - vandals

asciilifeform: comically small for the fixtures

asciilifeform: 'hot dog in hallway'

jurov: wait when they put LEDs in

asciilifeform: no LEDs here, afaik

jurov: well, over there in austria/germany they use linear fluorescents for streetlights

jurov: such 1930s feel

asciilifeform: they have those here too, at fuel stations

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17100 @ 0.00084584 = 14.4639 BTC [-]

nubbins`: mostly sodium on the poles here

mircea_popescu: ;;tslb

gribble: Time since last block: 27 minutes and 42 seconds

mircea_popescu: there's 3-4 blocks within ten minutes, then half hour off, then again

mircea_popescu: da fuck is this bs.

asciilifeform: new transformer at ft. meade, but fuse isn't to spec. blows every day.

asciilifeform: or: the mexicans left a lunch box in the cooling tower. so, jams.

mircea_popescu: i stil lcan't get over that quora byline

mircea_popescu: "the best source for knowledge", seriously ?!

asciilifeform: at least it isn't 'Google Knol'

mircea_popescu: just how ragingly uncultivated does one to be to be these days

asciilifeform: (ami the only one who automatically thought 'grassy knoll')

mircea_popescu: hehe no

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00084584 = 7.6126 BTC [-]

mircea_popescu: and again 3 blocks past 10 minutes

mircea_popescu: there's something very fucking weird at work here.

pankkake: yeah, statistics are weird

mircea_popescu: meanwhile, cheerleader auditions

mircea_popescu: http://noescapepublicnudity.tumblr.com/image/54594998334

ozbot: Castle von Dorkenstein: No Escape Public Nudity: Photo

pankkake: tattoos are probably not allowed for cheearleaders

mircea_popescu: why so square ?!

nubbins`: i think the shits came from that google knol over there

nubbins`: pankkake, then there would be no cheerleaders

mircea_popescu: he's never seen a tramp stamp :D

punkman: http://voices.yahoo.com/bitcoin-20-explained-colored-coins-vs-mastercoin-vs-12475857.html

ozbot: Bitcoin 2.0 Explained: Colored Coins Vs Mastercoin Vs Open Transactions Vs Protoshares - Yahoo Voice

punkman: "Perhaps you will even be able to trade a protoshares-backed currency on top of Mastercoin for BitMastercoins one day."

pankkake: so many CEOs

kakobrekla: inception was shit.

punkman: Open Transactions seems to do some useful things, but they want to become a startup now

Duffer1: startup of what?

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 67 @ 0.00294 = 0.197 BTC [+]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15550 @ 0.00084583 = 13.1527 BTC [-] {2}

assbot: [HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 102 @ 0.00294 = 0.2999 BTC [+]

mircea_popescu: <pankkake> so many CEOs <<

mircea_popescu: ceo is quckly becoming the new vp

mircea_popescu: im curious what;s coming up next.

assbot: [MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 200 @ 0.00175 = 0.35 BTC [-]

jurov: supreme excutive officer

mircea_popescu: megadirettore magistrale

pankkake: that shit is not really bitcoin specific, i've seen many open source projects get press coverage, even get funding (Diaspora*), when no one on board was able to really do the job

mircea_popescu: (duca-conte piermatteo barambanni)

jurov: haaaaa someone scalping x.eur

jurov: oh, and nobody charts it? gotta fix that

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13177 @ 0.00084767 = 11.1697 BTC [+]

assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3880 @ 0.00084767 = 3.289 BTC [+]

KRS1: CEO..now I've got to start planning for my new position as chairman

KRS1: I sit in a chair every day. I know everything there is to know about it.

jurov: chairperson..you gotta be gender-politically correct

megadirettore_ma: damn.

jurov: http://craphound.com/images/R_U_cyberpunk.jpg haha

KRS1: hey i have a friend like that

pankkake: that's how I imagine most of you guys

KRS-: for the record I'm nothing like that..not a redneck but drive a newer model diesel 4x4 truck and have a fast car for drag racing, but haven't messed with it in a while..go to bars with friends and hang out when i can.

lippoper: I've met KRS- IRL and I can vouch for what he said

KRS-: i barely know how to use my droid phone lol

KRS-: hey whats up lipopopop

mircea_popescu: is that slash

lippoper: whazzah

lippoper: gimme some

lippoper: .bait

KRS-: .bait

ozbot: http://25.media.tumblr.com/b9ddf895b88fe3ef67ae08bcd95b91b4/tumblr_mupz36Y97d1rt5ktoo1_500.jpg

KRS-: there

jurov: not slash, i'm pegging it as pua cooperation

lippoper: wow nice