log☇︎
72200+ entries in 0.377s
asciilifeform: the 1 problem is that ~nobody actually ~wants~ to use a demurraging coin
mircea_popescu: but the correct trb-i might just as well end up this situation where block reward is 1mn bitcoin, and it dies within 1mn blocks. so all mining does is produce ~ a lease ~ on a chunk of bitcoin. and the value of old bitcoin is monotonically decreasing over their lifetime. ☟︎☟︎
mircea_popescu: now, there is a lot of merit to danielpbarron 's observation -- all that is, must die. but yes, there's also a lot of merit to the contrary alf view -- the whole fucking point here is that we're flirting with immortality, innit now.
asciilifeform: just as it makes a difference whether we run out of usable tantalum 5000 yrs from now, or in 5.
asciilifeform: 'pruned blockchain' is a fundamentally fraudulent object.
mircea_popescu: "block 53 produced a 50 bitcoin mining reward. where is it today ?" "uhhh" "sit down."
asciilifeform: it is a heathen heresy
asciilifeform: as i understand it, there cannot be such a thing as 'safely pruned'
mircea_popescu: which makes "pruned" blockchain entirely useless for any purpose (other than "convincingly" to a standard that's not actually convincing pretend to be you know, done homework)
mircea_popescu: so : maybe there can be a way to organize the whole scheme so that the cost of a txn in terms of node is balanced out with the cost of the txn in terms of user ; and miner.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: orlov phrased same lemma with different pieces -- '90s ru produced a dictum, 'don't lend more than it'd cost the creditor to take a contract on you'
mircea_popescu: and this is what "when trade stops war starts" fundamentally means : all items WILL be priced. if they can not be priced through a market, they will be priced through a war. which is why whores are the exact mechanism through which war is avoided : in pricingtheir cunt on the market, they avoid the need to have their cunts priced at the point of the sword.
asciilifeform: danielpbarron: i can't speak for others, but i'd have 0 interest in a bitcoin where you can cause someone's coin to evaporate by disrupting his net connectivity for a decade or two (e.g., by imprisoning)
mircea_popescu: nobody, and consequently... they aren't. but this isn't a market, it's a war.
mircea_popescu: such systems do not exist outside of a simulation, take for instance the issue of piracy ; or its exact equivalent, "trade".
danielpbarron: the transactions and addresses wouldn't need to contain info about the expiration. the nodes would know when it expires based on when it was first mined into a block
mircea_popescu: for instance eulora, all items that exist can be priced on the basis of other items that exist ; there are no items outside of this scheme. makes eulora a perfect system.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform a market is closed in this sense when all the externalities can be priced.
asciilifeform: what means 'close a market'
mircea_popescu: it's not so far clear that there can't exist a sensible, and protocol-explicit method to close a market around the fundamental problem of uxto
asciilifeform: i suspect that this is a 'heat death' problem that cannot be fully dealt with.
mircea_popescu: a number is definitionally finite.
mircea_popescu: however much it cost, fifty or fifty billion, a txn will cost a number.
mircea_popescu: because what is must be a certain way, whereas what isn't yet can be any way whatsoever.
mircea_popescu: no matter how expensive a transaction that is is, the bulk of things to come will overcome it.
mircea_popescu: danielpbarron the problem is that whatever a bar may be placed in front of people, it must be finite. whereas the flow of time is infinite.
danielpbarron: what if a tx has to come with a proof of work that is just harder to find than the tx as a whole is to verify?
asciilifeform: this solves mempool spam but not the basic problem where a tx sitting in a block is an infinite, recurring cost, while the cost of creating it is finite and one-time.
mircea_popescu: well that's a different story. hence the http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: when it makes it into a block -- king and slave alike, are doomed to spend cycles on it.
mircea_popescu: currently, in order to create a txn you must mine it (calculate some hashes), worth about 1/10^20 of a block or so.
asciilifeform: in order to be eligible to be mined into a block.
asciilifeform: say a tx gotta carry proof of work.
mircea_popescu: currently, blocks issue money and txn spend money. and their decoupling, having nodes "mined" to a hard standard while txn are ALSO mined to a much weaker standard, is sensible.
mircea_popescu: this is a truth of the same level of, "a ship needn't carry a shipyard"
mircea_popescu: anyway. mined-txn is impractical because of a very practical impedance mismatch, which for historical reason we'll render as "not everyone can be a bank".
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: just to make it absolutely clear, i don't see a long-term future for satoshi's turd. all of my work on trb is to be regarded in same light as the neutron-absorbing armour on 1970s sov tanks -- something with which to prolong the life of the crew ~slightly~ so that it can drive over freshly-nuked ground and last a few hours of shootout.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform the piece needn't be found as such. a large portion of the us-mexico conflict of the 1980s was over silver. which was good money in china.
asciilifeform: (speaking of proofofwork -- iirc szabo had a lulzy piece about two tribes of northwest-american indians who traded sea shells that were too abundant in each tribe's section of the coast to use as proofofwork, to the other, where they were usable )
asciilifeform: ( one possible way to cut the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-25#1618589 knot -- ~everybody~ is a txer, miner, and node ) ☝︎
asciilifeform: to revisit much further upstack, to http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-14#1018732 ( via mircea_popescu's latest article ) -- consider a 'trb-i' where a tx carries proof of work, and is likewise mined as is the block ☝︎
mircea_popescu: and in a few years they'd be happy to have one random middle class indian shot in kansas. and so on. "the general public" fills the available crevices, no more.
mircea_popescu: yeah the 20% figure is more of a sort of "ideal case" ; it can climb to 50% or more like that ^
mircea_popescu: but no, it's exactly like the charter of a Совет Экономической Взаимопомощи.
asciilifeform: fwiw 138.107.206.73 does not appear to be a btc node
mircea_popescu: they don't really exist, unless you're a part of the japanese national wot, which...
asciilifeform: however the one solid clue i have so far is 'disk' -- on the ssd box, a block packed to the bursting point with liquishit, takes ~15 seconds to verify. max.
asciilifeform: gprof is the divinely ordained proper way to do this. however will need a bad old dynamic linking build. so will take some work.
mircea_popescu: 0mn worth of magic markers is a little much even for japan.)
mircea_popescu: dude, they fucking gutted them. olympus agreed to pay the usg ~70 billion yen in fines, and install obama's children as an "independent outside monitor". whole corp market cap being you know, 1.3trn or some shit. who the fuck pays 5% of the market cap as a fine already, what is this, Совет Экономической Взаимопомощи ? ☟︎
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-27#1618983 << it must be a bit of an ego boost when one's like... shown things, on a service which has their name in the url lel. ☝︎
ben_vulpes: valuing reserves sounds a lot like "multivariate calculus for experts"
trinque: almost looks like a pf bug really
trinque: there's a lot of weirdo shit in the routing table right now
trinque: I'm into the box; give me a while to actually figure out what happened
asciilifeform: possibly best thing i ever saw in a cinema.
asciilifeform: in other noose, asciilifeform saw a turkish film about the cats of istanbul
mircea_popescu: well, not really actual anything, that'd take actual existence. more in the vein of http://trilema.com/2014/why-dogecoin-is-a-scam-why-the-people-pushing-it-are-assholes-why-business-insider-is-a-contemptible-piece-of-shit-why-anyone-who-ever-worked-for-it-will-be-dancing-in-the-street-for-nickels-and-wh/#selection-265.0-265
mircea_popescu: it's been dead for about a year or so, but anyway, "oh i know, i'll make yet another fake wot website. because i'm a jew and we're fucking stupid congenitally." or some shit.
asciilifeform: and wtf is a 'trust agent'
mircea_popescu: well it's a 32 bit item
asciilifeform: ( i would try a larger cache, but 4GB is the idiot hardcoded max in bdb , they used a 32bit width )
mircea_popescu: certainly a possibility.
asciilifeform: it appeared to have 0 effect, but after cache had a chance to fill -- now this.
jurov: looky, i am just saying that right now it eats, say, a minute per block, which is 144 minute unreachability daily anyway. and am proposing short term tradeoff of having the unreachability shorted once per day.
asciilifeform: i already once built a system where the reward for enemy for unplugging seeped into days, weeks, then months of lost cpu time. until the unplugging became an inevitable thing. never again.
asciilifeform: but i have zero interest in designing a bdb-like abortion. for any purpose.
asciilifeform: so now jurov invites me to see a node with double-digit % of down time as something acceptable ?
jurov: yes, it will sit as a brick and i'm fine with it.
jurov: i'll use another node. or you're supposed to have a precious one and only one?
asciilifeform: sit like a brick ?
asciilifeform: understand, if my proggy writes an x to disk, at some point, and then later i read a y, and y != x, this IS CORRUPTION
asciilifeform: jurov: people flush write caches purely from hallucination ? maybe i don't need a disk at all then ?
asciilifeform: expect a warmup time of 2-3 days...
asciilifeform: so it isn't simply a matter of 'make a ramdisk', no.
asciilifeform: trb does not have a knob for 'reindex and make sure blkxxxx matches the index'.
mircea_popescu: this is why i say expensive, it's not a case of "random vps hur durr".
mircea_popescu: no but i mean, a 30gb ramdisk node to support the general public's mistaken notions and unwarranted pretensions... meh.
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform i don't really do blockchain.info style "public support". i think i have the stuff somewhere, i'll have to dig for it. basically it's, blk* live on /sda ; blkindex.dat and friends live on /sdb which happens to be a ramdisk.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: plz consider publishing your patch where you made this happen; it is not a trivial change
mircea_popescu: index-in-ram is actually how you run a large, infrastructural like node.
asciilifeform: jurov: the most sane variant of your proposal i can think of would be to run the entire tx index in memory. this is just barely practical on dulap, a massive box. and would mean multi-hour regeneration of the index on warmup. but is at least theoretically an improvement, in that it does not threaten to randomly lose bits.
mircea_popescu: there ~may~ be some optimizations that can be applied as-is to turn a jfs into something more appropriate for bitcoining than the "middle of the road" setting it ships with.
asciilifeform: reorgs are a thing, neh.
asciilifeform: (and, on a hotwallet box, if you have one -- the wallet.)
asciilifeform: ( does jurov volunteer to buy the double, triple, quadruple sets of disk, for all of my nodes, for these backups ? and what is the node to do while copying over a db ? say 'sorry , we're closed ' ? )
a111: Logged on 2017-02-19 03:54 asciilifeform: (iirc we had a thread where i described how corporate ameritards, if given a problem like phuctor, would happily soak up a few $mil and megawatt of iron)
asciilifeform: nonsense like 'let's flush write cache once in a blue moon instead of normally', 'let's let the db corrupt and SURE I PROMISE WE CAN RECOVER' is what winblowz world is built from.
asciilifeform: it is definitionally not 'a hack'.
jurov: using spinning rust is not a cheap hack?
asciilifeform: the thread today where mircea_popescu sees something with even the superficial silhouette of a cheap prbistic hack, and barf mightily, taught you nothing, jurov ?
asciilifeform: i could cut off public ip access right now -- and never see a block again.
asciilifeform: very concretely: all enemy has to do, to gum up a trb node, is to repeatedly request blocks from 0 .. current, randomly, and switch ips as needed
asciilifeform: my house is a poor example, i suspect that squirrels could tip it.
asciilifeform: however a node that can be brought to its knees by randos, regardless of how, is also likewise broken design.
mircea_popescu: we aren't actually following a purpose here, like "have a good bitcoin". we're merely proceeding from cause : db is broken and THEREFORE must be fixed. not BECAUSE it would bla bla ; but therefore.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-26 19:14 asciilifeform: the 'type 2' (non-verification) blackhole goes right back to the fundamental question of 'something to all comers', how much disk thrashing does a derp get to invoke simply by coming up with a not-yet-banned ip and a pseudonode.
a111: Logged on 2017-02-26 19:26 mircea_popescu: now then : a fix for the db would significantly improve a few classes of block verification delays ; and it would alleviate blackhole-like behaviour due to that, node's frozen checking a new block. there's at least 3 different dos vectors for other nodes, and a) the foregoing wouldn't help ; b) if it helped the enemy could easily upregulate the crapflood to compensate.
asciilifeform: the unfortunate bit that i keep coming back to in my head, is that http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-26#1618702 + http://btcbase.org/log/2017-02-26#1618674 add up to a fundamental boojum, that is not a matter of simply 'make a faster db, buy a faster disk' ☝︎☝︎
asciilifeform: i have this notion, that there was a massive one some time before i tuned in.