log☇︎
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mod6: heheh, ok. will dig into ur function a bit more here in a little bit.
asciilifeform: most you'll get is a stop.
asciilifeform: mod6: you won't physically ever see a segfault in ada proggy built with default 'fascism' level
mod6: or whatever it was. no did not seem to be a segfault.
asciilifeform: ada is a thing for a reason, i found. hence this entire thread.
asciilifeform: in that they are replaced with a far more constrained item
mod6: gotta take it the whiteboard a bit later perhaps.
mircea_popescu: wouldn't it be actually proper to copy the slice into its own array and to maintain a pairing of slices and new arrays ; rather trhan do index magics on the mult code ?
asciilifeform: that's a copy, we do this also sometimes.
asciilifeform: that ain't called a sloce
asciilifeform: so you can get it back from a slice
mircea_popescu: it's generally a pity people don't use numerical methods more.
mircea_popescu: now i gotta read a pdf
asciilifeform: 'mathematics of computation' vol. 61, no. 203, july 1993, pp. 177-194 ( https://www.math.dartmouth.edu//~carlp/PDF/paper88.pdf << yes it's a scan, ain't got another ) appears to give the desired bounds for miller-rabin.
mircea_popescu: which incidentally brings us to a very workable and very useful tmsr definition of entropy quality : take a FG string. flip a number of consecutive bits to 1. the result is your entropy quality, such as 100/1mb if you flipped 100 bits. ☟︎
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform that's another thing i would like : a graph of the relation of the m-r failure rate to the a) entropy quality and b) margin.
mircea_popescu: it is entirely acceptable for proper keygen to take up to a few hours. 200 seconds is actually exceedingly fast.
mircea_popescu: ^ very specific what a key is. not "interchangeable p and q"
a111: Logged on 2016-08-03 04:34 mircea_popescu: actually to formalize that : a 4096 bits key means a p that is 257 to 259 bytes long ; and a q that is 258 to 260 bytes long. end of fucking story.
mircea_popescu: not so. why i said do the math : cracking 4kb key the hard way exceeds the universe. this is a categorical argument, substantially different from "i could compute 2 bit key by enumeration on napkin"
asciilifeform: at any rate a p proggy starts with the register bitness
mircea_popescu: and not even 4096 bits, there's a whole speccing discussion re this in teh logs
mircea_popescu: and this nonsense of offering faux meaningless choice a la kochpgp is unwelcome and shouldn't be perpetuated. keys are 4kb and forget about it.
asciilifeform: i'm writing a proggy meant to be wholly devoid of 640isenoughforeverybody-isms
asciilifeform: a 8192b key, not yet known, because gotta patch it to even allow one
asciilifeform: sooo a 4096b rsa key takes about a dozen modexp's, on avg, on gpg 1.4.10 ☟︎
mircea_popescu: what's a 4kb keygen, gotta look for the primes, say a few hundred emults ?
BingoBoingo: Our democracy however does not care to speak at all about parallels between protagonist of film who is a "bedsheet ghost" and Klan uniform which is also "bedsheet ghost"
BingoBoingo: Other critics on said "cultural milestone": "Rooney attacks that pie like a cake person, engineering such unusual fork scoops (she stabs the pie at least four times before each bite) that I started to wonder whether the actress had even ever seen a pie before. We all do weird things when dealing with grief, but I was tickled by the fact that Mara’s bizarre pie-eating method still managed to leave the crust mostly intact."
BingoBoingo: "Rooney Mara’s character, grieving the death of her lover (Casey Affleck), returns home to find a pie left in her kitchen by a sympathetic friend or neighbor. As the bedsheet-clad ghost of her beloved looks on, Mara’s character, known only as M, unwraps the pie, sinks to the kitchen floor, and devours almost the entire thing in a five-minute, uninterrupted sequence before suddenly dashing to a nearby bathroom to throw up." << Films W
mircea_popescu: (for the anthropocurious : there's three types of primitive civilisation known to either theory or practice. all three had a female hut, where the women did their woman shit. one of them had a male hut where they got drunk and dragged unwilling sexual partners by the hair. another had a male hut where they mostly sat idly about. the final one had no male hut at all, like the chimps, and thereby is very dubiosly a civilisation
asciilifeform: 'Find a healthy middle ground for regulators to interact with commerce without compromising some core principles inherited from Bitcoin'
a111: Logged on 2017-07-10 14:59 phf: https://archive.is/lyT2j << "The American college graduate allegedly beaten to death by a gang of 10 people in Greece was an aspiring entrepreneur who was visiting the country to launch his own fashion line."
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-10#1681164 << amusingly this was discussed a coupla times in the logs, naive "owner" in thailands. ☝︎
phf: https://archive.is/lyT2j << "The American college graduate allegedly beaten to death by a gang of 10 people in Greece was an aspiring entrepreneur who was visiting the country to launch his own fashion line." ☟︎
mircea_popescu: in the same vein, the early 1900s investigations into the meaning and structure of number resulted in a correctly complicated notion, from riemann functions to cantor's sets and so on. this is at great variance with non-fields like "artificial intelligence" or say alf's favourite, postmodern qm (say string theory or w/e) -- which evidently are incorrectly complicated even if it's not always evident where exactly.
mircea_popescu: and re latin : it should be noted that it was by no means a maximally simple, or a maximally adequate-to-human-experience language. it was however ~correctly~ complicated, which to date is its foremost value.
BingoBoingo: http://trilema.com/2017/on-trisection-a-humble-contribution/#comment-122353 << alf did you miss the part where color is a cultural construct and mircea_popescu does it differently?
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> dun talk smack about the pole dancing and stilt wearing crowd until you greco-roman wrestle a coupla. they're NOT THAT EASY << Original Sport!!!
asciilifeform: trinque: if you're the hero who knows how to standardize $subj without birthing a microshitian shitfest - go, do.
mircea_popescu: http notably gets this half-right : there's no such thing as an error message the server ever expects to see from a client, such as i dunno, "this page has porn on it, unacceptable, send me another version" or whatever.
mircea_popescu: phf i would be friendly to the notion of a machine word yes.
phf: arbitrarily sized numbers are a variable sized type. gotta figure out ~some~ way of packing them. you're essentially left with type tagged size variation (if a byte is 0, then next struct is 8byte, if a byte is 1, then next struct is 16byte), but at the end you still will end up falling back to "read this number to know how many bytes to read" ☟︎
mircea_popescu: i don't care if it's a "gui" or a telex or whatever it may be.
mircea_popescu: or to put this belaboured thing in different words : if your data exchange protocol includes the concept of "error message", you do not in fact have a data exchange protocol.
mircea_popescu: and if asked for "bitcoin block", i do expect to be asked a number according to that exact type.
mircea_popescu: so more like all-exposed-functionality) -> ((gossipd:all-message-since "give me all the gossipd message since a certain timestamp") ((timestamp fixnum positive "timestamp (in seconds since epoch) since which messages") ...))
a111: Logged on 2017-07-09 16:19 phf: (all-exposed-functionality) -> ((gossipd:all-message-since "give me all the gossipd message since a certain timestamp") ((timestamp fixnum "timestamp (in seconds since epoch) since which messages") ...))
phf: generally "things that might have different size" is not a trivial thing to pack. (that's why there's complexity in ASN.1, because of variable run length encodings)
phf: like i said elsewhere, sexp is not a data exchange format, it's a way of writing common lisp code. various extensions are there to facilitate the process of programming. it's a folly to look at sexp and go "oh, so simple! lets just store our data in it! lets rpc with it too!" because that's not really what it's designed for
mircea_popescu: ah i thought you were just loading a parser spuriously.
mircea_popescu: for the curious : yes, i also have this problem in speech, especially when discussing complicated things with complicated women, and the solution THERE is the sort and short rule. which in relevant part says here that "(1 #.(+ 1 1) 3)" could NEVER be interpreted as "(+ 1 1)" because "(+ 1 1)" was a shorter statement of that and it wasn't used.
phf: not with asn.1, because it's a serialization format, not actual RPC. you can certainly do the call with wire/remote, and no "macros" involved in the process
mircea_popescu: phf serialization can at best be a packaging. the issue is, can i say "here's a function that takes a parameter and outputs "your mom's a python" and the data payload is function(is that you daddy)" in order to convey the string "your mom's a python" ?
mircea_popescu: if you;'re going to have adnotated data and the adnotations are macros and who the fuck knows what goes on, you've got a miserable protocol.
mircea_popescu: but nevermind the processor for a second. the discussion here is data interchange.
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: y'know, even a traditional vonneumann processor can work with immutable code, if roms were actually still available on the market...
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: makes program loading a bitch
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform this is not even a half-bad idea.
mircea_popescu: but i can say you not merely should, but absolutely must. the cornerstone of wire protocol is a firm, protocol-derived guarantee of there being no such thing as bad data.
phf: can't you say the same about lisp? you establish your data format (i.e. a READTABLE that you're going to use for reading it), at which point modifications to that readtable makes for broken machine. the standard specifies how, e.g. number reader works, so if your readtable uses standard number reader 5 is 5
asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: actually i might have what you want ( supposing i correctly apprehend what you wanted. ) it was called 'harvard architecture', i even have a few here, it was once popular in single-chip fiddycent microcontrollers
mircea_popescu: everything sucks where there can be such a thing as "this is the table of possible inputs and these are the three that set it on fire".
mircea_popescu: the very possiblity of even having such a thing as "broken data", by eg naming your kid "-- DROP table students;" is why i agree with the sql sucks sentiment.
mircea_popescu: phf but that is, for the needs of this mental model, a broken machine. not broken data.
phf: i mean, any system can be tweaked into "number five to have the capacity to really be four". pretty much a standard exercise "oh tweak this memory location and now all your TRUEs are FALSE111"
phf: mircea_popescu: well, in that case there's no value to lisp ~at all~, since the bulk of lisp advantage comes from this fact. but pretending that you somehow can get not-this with a turing machine results in what we have now
phf: lisp has its own kind of trisector: a person whose mind is so blown by the whole code/data thing that he's convinced one can build "real AI" using a handful of self modifying macros
mircea_popescu: phf your excited attempts at playiung with candi's ass, back when she was a virgin, is a plain and very obvious indication of what ~every lisp hacker knows but none dare admit, or think about. it's a fundamentally dirty language in that it doesn't, actually, admit there is even in principle differences between data and code. "oh, it's an array, and here's the associated macro, so this .dat file is actually turing complete". f
phf: there's ISLISP standard, which was supposed to create a subset of multiple different lisps (like common lisp and scheme, but also eulisp, since designed by europeans). i don't think anyone (particularly sexp library authors for other languages) ever tried to conform to it. typical solution is to have a JSON-like subset of sexps, so that you can express (FOO "abc" 2), i.e. symbol, string, number and list and nothing else
phf: (common lisp sexps are backed by a full blown reader, with multiple non-trivial dispatch macros, so for example '(1 #.(+ 1 1) 3) is a valid sexps that's read as '(1 2 3), i.e. (+ 1 1) is evaluated at read time. there's a dispatch for structs, like #S(FOO :A 1 :B 2) results in a structure foo with two slots a and b set to 1 and 2 respectively, but there's no corresponding constructor for classes. there's a reader for arrays, but that one doesn't let you
mircea_popescu: and in other "i have no idea if alf will think this is a human face or no", http://68.media.tumblr.com/ec2b3b3a67382908205ac498e1fc22ab/tumblr_o84ox08CwI1uu3p4bo1_1280.jpg
mircea_popescu: and this is a mature question, ripe for the unburdening, not least of all because http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680788 ☝︎
mircea_popescu: and yes, thius could be done. like, toiday. and yes trinque 's irc bot could be expanded to be a proper connectivity point. and so on.
phf: (all-exposed-functionality) -> ((gossipd:all-message-since "give me all the gossipd message since a certain timestamp") ((timestamp fixnum "timestamp (in seconds since epoch) since which messages") ...)) ☟︎
mircea_popescu: the problem is again one of synthesis, someone gotta sit down and write that scary text. not the one to which there's nothing to add, but the one from which there's nothing left to remove. "here's how a discovery protocol goes".
phf: mircea_popescu: i think you could design a pretty straightforward discovery protocol once you decided on the wire. we can see this process with irc bots here
phf: in the WIRE/REMOTE approach you connect to instance, and do a function call that the author told you about ahead of time. in one case it might (gossipd:all-message-since timestamp) in another (ben-vulpes-block-chainer:get-block n)
mircea_popescu: why not just make a datastruct polymorpher then, and have the program just come up with random shit each run
mircea_popescu: asciilifeform you are running a computer. (not crap, an actual tmsr is happy with machine). when i start mine up, i want to get some bits from you. maybe it's "what sina said about mp on gossipd". maybe it's "the nth block in the current blockchain". maybe it's whatever it is. how does it do this ?
phf: same as you would do it locally. it's a transparent rpc, not a specified one. so either the operator does manual discovery, or you define a discovery convention. (and then there's middle ground, where you use standard tooling, like code to list packages and symbols to do discovery for you)
mircea_popescu: in a very harsh example : i somehow knew how to say "like ukr girls" above. i found this out somehow. how does the lisp instance find out what to say so it's meaningful ?
phf: cmucl has REMOTE and WIRE packages which let you do rpc between two instances (naturally it's bit rotted in the trunk, and only working version at this point is on my branch). it's a combination of simple "spin up server/connect to server", serializer/deserializer and an rpc convention.
mircea_popescu: dun talk smack about the pole dancing and stilt wearing crowd until you greco-roman wrestle a coupla. they're NOT THAT EASY
mircea_popescu: a) you know you're going to have a schism and b) you know nobody's going to manage to evaluate the claims, present or future, for any kind of coherent truth value.
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680947 << actually this is interesting, and i mean from a metaperspective. consider, randomly defined cult, they come up with some crankwagen, whatever it may be, say the mpfhf or the correct way rto diet or to cure cancer or w/e. at which point ranking member promises to come out with proof it's shit, and the result is ? ☝︎
mircea_popescu: i suspect gypsydom is a lot like brazildom. they dumped all the slaves in there, the results are rather varied, but strong contingent of fair brasileiras, even if lots and lots of mulattos.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-09 13:41 shinohai: Lynched to orgasm sounds like a great porn title though.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-09 08:36 mircea_popescu: in other lulz, i took girl + car out on a survey of local brothels tonite.
phf: *on a bit level
phf: well, one thing that ascii said "don't operate at a byte level", might also be the reason why lisp version is slower. bit vectors are stores as octet arrays, so tweaking single bit pulls a whole octet, does bit twiddling on it, and then puts it back. presumably can be sped up if one were to figure out how to work over an octet at a time
mircea_popescu: i don't see a closed form. then again, it's new.
mircea_popescu: somehow peeps got the idea it's "unfair", like little kids playing a game, to use computers in certain ways that expose them for being mere machines, rather than your girlfriend. such as making them do things like fhf.
mircea_popescu: what "bitcoin nodes" currently do is a very shitty attempt at just this. and they are as autonomous as you are conical, also because they fail to correctly implement this.
a111: Logged on 2017-07-09 04:11 trinque: concretely, I would like to connect to your lisp instance from mine and be able to interrogate it for classes of objects it contains, for particular instances (i.e. there is a global notion of identity, global addressing, see threads on GNS), get instances which match some predicate...
mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-09#1680903 << moreover fixing this in stone seems like a poorly understood prerequisite for both gossipd and bitcoin itself. ☝︎
a111: Logged on 2017-07-08 02:18 sina: did you make a lispy one go faster?
phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-07-08#1680544 << nope, in fact my "optimized" one i.e. the version where cmucl doesn't complain about unknown types with (speed 3) (safety 0), is about twice as slow as Go version. i'm curious why that would be the case, but haven't had a chance to investigate. ☝︎
shinohai: Lynched to orgasm sounds like a great porn title though. ☟︎
BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> lol lynched to death. what other kinds are there, lynched to orgasm ? << Well there's the incomplete version which is just a beating